Re: 650B update - Its coming!

[landotter]

On Jul 8, 12:53 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <1183865638.818122.61...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
>
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 7, 5:41 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > In article <1183847222.769260.190...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Why would I not be surprised if Grant's next thing is proprietary
> > > > thread standards, like Raleigh (or did I muse that already?)?
>
> > > Funnily enough... Rivendell has stopped using standard seatpost
> > > clamp bolts on their bikes. They now use a nut and bolt you can
> > > buy in any hardware store. Elitist bastards!
>
> > If that's true, it's just dang dumb. Link? Cite? Chain? Yank?
>
> It's a standard M6 allen bolt and nut. It's been mentioned in the
> Rivendell Reader and such a number of times over the past few years.
> It's not being trumpeted on the Web site, but you can see the nut side
> of the seat lug here.
>
> http://www.rivbike.com/v/misc/seatlug.jpg.html
>
> The nut fits into a recess in the lug to keep it form turning. The head
> of the allen bolt fits into a similar recess on the other side.
>
> Why would using a bolt you can get just about anywhere in the world,
> rather than a seat post bolt you can only get in a bike shop, be dumb?

Two blocks from where I sit you'll find Cumberland Hardware and East
Side Bicycles. Cumberland, as much as I love 'em, has a very limited
set of such bolts, and probably no real match--but the bike shop
stocks standard binder bolts.

Grant's choice is not only ugly and unnecessary, but stinks of phony
earnestness.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <1183913335.362391.229610@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 8, 12:53 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <1183865638.818122.61...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> >
> > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 7, 5:41 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <1183847222.769260.190...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
> >
> > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > Why would I not be surprised if Grant's next thing is
> > > > > proprietary thread standards, like Raleigh (or did I muse
> > > > > that already?)?
> >
> > > > Funnily enough... Rivendell has stopped using standard seatpost
> > > > clamp bolts on their bikes. They now use a nut and bolt you
> > > > can buy in any hardware store. Elitist bastards!
> >
> > > If that's true, it's just dang dumb. Link? Cite? Chain? Yank?
> >
> > It's a standard M6 allen bolt and nut. It's been mentioned in the
> > Rivendell Reader and such a number of times over the past few
> > years. It's not being trumpeted on the Web site, but you can see
> > the nut side of the seat lug here.
> >
> > http://www.rivbike.com/v/misc/seatlug.jpg.html
> >
> > The nut fits into a recess in the lug to keep it form turning. The
> > head of the allen bolt fits into a similar recess on the other
> > side.
> >
> > Why would using a bolt you can get just about anywhere in the
> > world, rather than a seat post bolt you can only get in a bike
> > shop, be dumb?
>
> Two blocks from where I sit you'll find Cumberland Hardware and East
> Side Bicycles. Cumberland, as much as I love 'em, has a very limited
> set of such bolts, and probably no real match--but the bike shop
> stocks standard binder bolts.

They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify this
rather surprising assertion.

> Grant's choice is not only ugly and unnecessary, but stinks of phony
> earnestness.

LOL! Ya just can't make some people happy.

[still me]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

>
>They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify this
>rather surprising assertion.

M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen head
on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need for a
bolt with the "correct" size head.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r6jf@4ax.com>,
still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify this
> >rather surprising assertion.
>
> M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen head
> on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need for a
> bolt with the "correct" size head.

Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut. Every hardware store should
have them.

[A Muzi]

>Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify this
>> rather surprising assertion.

still me wrote:
> M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen head
> on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need for a
> bolt with the "correct" size head.

There's a DIN spec for that, it's called DIN-912; standard all over the
world. It's bicycle parts which have different heads, not metric hardware.

p.s. we used that set lug on some 3Renshos for the same reasons as GP
but customer reaction wasn't positive. Panasonic Team frames used that
lug at one time too. Customers just expect the double-allen bolt. No
functional issues AFAIK either way.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[landotter]

On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify this
> > >rather surprising assertion.
>
> > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen head
> > on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need for a
> > bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut. Every hardware store should
> have them.

Um, how many binder bolts have you broken? The classic style is
available at any shop for $5. What an odd thing to "standardize" when
you promote weird tire sizes and shellacking bar tape.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <1183947517.691793.215750@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >
> > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > >this rather surprising assertion.
> >
> > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
> >
> > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.

> > Every hardware store should have them.
>
> Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

> The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
things.

> What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> and shellacking bar tape.

The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
these things. ;-)

[landotter]

On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
>
>
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > >this rather surprising assertion.
>
> > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > Every hardware store should have them.
>
> > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.
>
> > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
>
> Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> things.

You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
cripe's sake.

>
> > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > and shellacking bar tape.
>
> The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

>
> More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> these things. ;-)

What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
the bowels of Alabama.

650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.

[* * Chas]

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-C4ADB1.08545609072007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <1183947517.691793.215750@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
> landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.
>
I used to use Campy seatpost bolts on all the frames that they would fit -
both on my own bikes and for customers. They were the best plus they
looked classy.

At some point quite a few years ago they started making them too hard (or
maybe hydrogen embrittlement from the chrome plating) and they would break
with the slightest overtightening.

I had it happen again last summer on a frame I was putting togther so I
guess they haven't improved much over the years.

I've probably broken off at least 20 of the 2 piece hex key seatpost bolts
over a 35 year period. I've never had a problem with any seat tube clamp
that used standard socket head screws, just the chrome plated 2 piece jobs
from various makers.

Why have I overtightened so many seat post bolts? Have you ever had a seat
slide down while riding because the clamp wasn't tight enough?

I've found a lot of out of round seat tubes and undersized seatposts. I
have an adjustable reamer that I use to clean up seat tubes when necessary
and at a minimum I run a brake cylinder hone on an electric drill down the
seat tube to clear out paint and corrosion.

Over the years, after periods of not riding, I had to adjust my seat a lot
when I got back on the bike. During these times I'v always carried a spare
seatpost bolt.

I'm currently using some 2 piece chrome plated chrome-moly bolts made in
Taiwan. They look nice and are plenty strong.

Chas.

<snip>
>
> The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> these things. ;-)

Yes, 28 x 1 1/2 on rod braked of band braked 50 Lb. beasts used for basic
transportation throughout much of the "3rd World" plus Japan, Korea,
Taiwan and parts of Europe.

Chas.

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> ...Just not
> much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> despite our pretensions to the contrary....

Bah! Philo, Illinois is the Center of the Universe.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.
>
> > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > Every hardware store should have them.
>
> > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.
>
> > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
>
> > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > things.
>
> You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> cripe's sake.
>
>
>
> > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > and shellacking bar tape.
>
> > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.
>
>
>
> > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > these things. ;-)
>
> What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> the bowels of Alabama.
>
> 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
pretty clear.


People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <1183991928.618737.281060@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.c om>,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and
> > > > > >verify this rather surprising assertion.
> >
> > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly.
> > > > > Might go nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv
> > > > > bolts were allen head on one side, recessed nut on the other.
> > > > > That suggests a need for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
> >
> > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut. Every hardware store
> > > > should have them.
> >
> > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
> >
> > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a
> > Simplex style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar
> > things.
> >
> > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
> >
> > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of
> > American and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are
> > weird nonstandard things.
>
> You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> cripe's sake.
>
> >
> > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire
> > > sizes and shellacking bar tape.
> >
> > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't
> > know that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for
> > nearly 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places.
> > Just not much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of
> > the universe despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might
> > think it's weird, but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders
> with who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.
> >
> > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use
> > the 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C
> > wheels would be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't
> > have to worry about these things. ;-)
>
> What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> the bowels of Alabama.
>
> 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.

What I see as pointless pretense is the great deal of energy you expend
railing against these things. Good grief.

[landotter]

On Jul 9, 9:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > the bowels of Alabama.
>
> > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-
>
> One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Sure thing. FWIW, I've been enjoying the 27x 1 1/4" tires on my
neighborhood ride so much, that I sort of regret converting my road
bike to 700c. It's surely mostly psychological--but the wheels just
look majestic, especially the wide-ish rims. It's got nearly that
magic glide of a DL-1, but it can actually stop without a prayer.

>
> 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> pretty clear.
>
> People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

You and your "reason". Snort! Have you no faith in Grant? I think
he's in cahoots with the Flying Spaghetti Monster--submit to their
religion and you'll have an eternity of beer volcanoes and stripper
factories!

[John]

On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.
>
> > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > Every hardware store should have them.
>
> > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.
>
> > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
>
> > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > things.
>
> > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > cripe's sake.
>
> > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > and shellacking bar tape.
>
> > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.
>
> > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > these things. ;-)
>
> > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > the bowels of Alabama.
>
> > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-
>
> One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.
>
> 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> pretty clear.
>
> People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

John McMurry

[landotter]

On Jul 9, 10:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Let the little people bear their own crosses.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 9, 10:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.
>
> > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.
>
> > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.
>
> > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
>
> > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > things.
>
> > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > cripe's sake.
>
> > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > and shellacking bar tape.
>
> > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.
>
> > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > these things. ;-)
>
> > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > the bowels of Alabama.
>
> > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-
>
> > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.
>
> > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > pretty clear.
>
> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they are far more available, both in shops
on line, at competitive, discounted prices than is anything 650B.

Further, most honest and intelligent vendors restrict the use of 559mm
wheels on road bikes to small frames where they are necessary (IOW,
the slight inconvenience of finding a tire is far outweighed by the
superior fit and geometry of the bike). In general, they are not used
as a niche market ploy.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <1183994705.366163.140380@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
John <johnmcmurry@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but
> > that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the
> > nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26"
> > wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily
> > ordered on line at competitive discounted prices directly by the
> > end user.
>
> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60 cm)
with 26" wheels. Buying road tires for this bike at many of our LBSes
is difficult. Some don't stock any at all, and many of those who do
stock a poor selection of sizes and often rather poor quality heavy
tires.

[bfd]

On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.
>
> > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.
>
> > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.
>
> > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
>
> > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > things.
>
> > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > cripe's sake.
>
> > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > and shellacking bar tape.
>
> > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.
>
> > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > these things. ;-)
>
> > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > the bowels of Alabama.
>
> > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-
>
> > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.
>
> > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > pretty clear.
>
> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory_ID=5425


Moreover, Performance offers several 26" road tires that they call
"city" tires from different mfrs including Michelin, Continental,
GEAX, and of course its own Forte brand.

Note, Gaerlan, gtgtandems and Sheldon Brown still offer 26" Avocet
tires for those who are still interested.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 9, 10:33 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 10:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> Let the little people bear their own crosses.

You're a hard man, Mr. Landotter Who ! ;-)

[landotter]

On Jul 9, 10:42 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 10:33 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 9, 10:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > Let the little people bear their own crosses.
>
> You're a hard man, Mr. Landotter Who ! ;-)

Nah, it was literally their own choice. We had 100K holy rollers in
town this weekend for a squinty mega-prayer session at the coliseum--
and quite a few were actually bearing crosses while walking around
downtown. I'm not sure of the sizing system, but I'm guessing it's not
an off-the-shelf deal.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 9, 11:26 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 10:42 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 10:33 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 9, 10:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > > > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > > > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > > Let the little people bear their own crosses.
>
> > You're a hard man, Mr. Landotter Who ! ;-)
>
> Nah, it was literally their own choice. We had 100K holy rollers in
> town this weekend for a squinty mega-prayer session at the coliseum--
> and quite a few were actually bearing crosses while walking around
> downtown. I'm not sure of the sizing system, but I'm guessing it's not
> an off-the-shelf deal.-


100,000 bible bangers!?! Have any lightning storms?

Maybe the Hobbits can convince the Mormons they need to ride around on
650B wheeled Rivs instead of those el cheapo MTBs?

[landotter]

On Jul 9, 11:32 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 11:26 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 9, 10:42 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 10:33 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 9, 10:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > > > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > > > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > > > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > > > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > > > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > > > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > > > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > > > > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > > > > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > > > Let the little people bear their own crosses.
>
> > > You're a hard man, Mr. Landotter Who ! ;-)
>
> > Nah, it was literally their own choice. We had 100K holy rollers in
> > town this weekend for a squinty mega-prayer session at the coliseum--
> > and quite a few were actually bearing crosses while walking around
> > downtown. I'm not sure of the sizing system, but I'm guessing it's not
> > an off-the-shelf deal.-
>
> 100,000 bible bangers!?! Have any lightning storms?

Nah, just searing heat. I'm surprised nobody died, to be honest,
because a lot of the pilgrims had fasted pretty seriously before they
got all squinty and hated on people that enjoy copulation without
guilt.

Here, sign up for the next rally!
http://www.thecall.com/

>
> Maybe the Hobbits can convince the Mormons they need to ride around on
> 650B wheeled Rivs instead of those el cheapo MTBs?

Don't confuse tongue twisting charismatics with the funny underpants
people. Tsk tsk. Still, I respect them just a hair more than the
Jehovah's Witnesses that descend upon the neighborhood in white Town
Cars and the like. Riding a Wally World bike shows a modicum of
humility.

[Michael Press]

In article
<1184001594.796086.118170@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups. com>
,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here, sign up for the next rally!
> http://www.thecall.com/

Hey, honey. How'd ya like to make $50 the hard way?

--
Michael Press

[landotter]

On Jul 9, 3:00 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <1183991928.618737.281...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.c om>,
>
>
>
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and
> > > > > > >verify this rather surprising assertion.
>
> > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly.
> > > > > > Might go nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv
> > > > > > bolts were allen head on one side, recessed nut on the other.
> > > > > > That suggests a need for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut. Every hardware store
> > > > > should have them.
>
> > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a
> > > Simplex style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar
> > > things.
>
> > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
>
> > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of
> > > American and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are
> > > weird nonstandard things.
>
> > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > cripe's sake.
>
> > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire
> > > > sizes and shellacking bar tape.
>
> > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't
> > > know that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for
> > > nearly 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places.
> > > Just not much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of
> > > the universe despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might
> > > think it's weird, but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders
> > with who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.
>
> > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use
> > > the 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C
> > > wheels would be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't
> > > have to worry about these things. ;-)
>
> > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > the bowels of Alabama.
>
> > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.
>
> What I see as pointless pretense is the great deal of energy you expend
> railing against these things. Good grief.

Hi, welcome to rec.bicycles.tech.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 9, 3:07 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <1183994705.366163.140...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
>
> John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but
> > > that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the
> > > nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26"
> > > wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily
> > > ordered on line at competitive discounted prices directly by the
> > > end user.
>
> > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> > will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60 cm)
> with 26" wheels. Buying road tires for this bike at many of our LBSes
> is difficult. Some don't stock any at all, and many of those who do
> stock a poor selection of sizes and often rather poor quality heavy
> tires.



Of course, one is left to wonder *why* a vendor would offer, and an
end user purchase, a 60cm road frame built around 559mm BSD (26")
wheels.

[G.T.]

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <1183994705.366163.140380@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> John <johnmcmurry@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>
>> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
>> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
>> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but
>> > that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the
>> > nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26"
>> > wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily
>> > ordered on line at competitive discounted prices directly by the
>> > end user.
>>
>> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
>> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60 cm)
> with 26" wheels.

A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run 559 or
even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped road bike and
with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride was much more rattly
than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame is currently on the wall of
my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell, I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear
tires on my Soma so as a tall rider why in the world would I want to stick
myself with 584 or 559 wheels?

Greg

--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Le petite dejeuner au Tour de Farce:
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

[Tim McNamara]

In article <1395fnqc09qrb11@corp.supernews.com>,
"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > In article <1183994705.366163.140380@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > John <johnmcmurry@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+
> >> > local bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even
> >> > know what you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special
> >> > ordered", but that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to
> >> > pay through the nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety
> >> > of both 700C and 26" wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of
> >> > course, they can be easily ordered on line at competitive
> >> > discounted prices directly by the end user.
> >>
> >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
> >
> > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60
> > cm) with 26" wheels.
>
> A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run
> 559 or even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped
> road bike and with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride
> was much more rattly than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame
> is currently on the wall of my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell,
> I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear tires on my Soma so as a tall
> rider why in the world would I want to stick myself with 584 or 559
> wheels?

It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame from
Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came with 26"
wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller frames and 700C
wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my mountain bike for
several years (hence the choice of this frame rather than a road frame)
and has been converted into my primary bike for brevets and touring.
You can see the bike here:

http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html

I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent tire so
far.

[russellseaton1@yahoo.com]

On Jul 9, 6:04 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>
> news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <1183994705.366163.140...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> >> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> >> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but
> >> > that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the
> >> > nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26"
> >> > wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily
> >> > ordered on line at competitive discounted prices directly by the
> >> > end user.
>
> >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60 cm)
> > with 26" wheels.
>
> A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run 559 or
> even 584.

For a loaded touring bike, no matter how large, or a city commuting
type bike, the 26" wheel size would be perfect. If I were building a
custom loaded touring bike, it would have 26" wheels. Bruce Gordon
has offered his high priced touring bike with 700C or 26" wheels for
many years and a few years ago introduced 26" wheels on a version of
his lower priced touring bike.



I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped road bike and
> with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride was much more rattly
> than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame is currently on the wall of
> my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell, I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear
> tires on my Soma so as a tall rider why in the world would I want to stick
> myself with 584 or 559 wheels?
>
> Greg
>
> --
> Ticketbastard tax tracker:http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
> Le petite dejeuner au Tour de Farce:http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Joe Bernard]

On Jul 9, 5:49 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <1395fnqc09qr...@corp.supernews.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> >news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > > In article <1183994705.366163.140...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > > John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+
> > >> > local bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even
> > >> > know what you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special
> > >> > ordered", but that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to
> > >> > pay through the nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety
> > >> > of both 700C and 26" wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of
> > >> > course, they can be easily ordered on line at competitive
> > >> > discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> > >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60
> > > cm) with 26" wheels.
>
> > A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run
> > 559 or even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped
> > road bike and with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride
> > was much more rattly than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame
> > is currently on the wall of my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell,
> > I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear tires on my Soma so as a tall
> > rider why in the world would I want to stick myself with 584 or 559
> > wheels?
>
> It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame from
> Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came with 26"
> wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller frames and 700C
> wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my mountain bike for
> several years (hence the choice of this frame rather than a road frame)
> and has been converted into my primary bike for brevets and touring.
> You can see the bike here:
>
> http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
>
> I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent tire so
> far.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.

And The Hobbit says, as pertains to the 603 boondoggle: It wasn't a
joke, but, it's a stupid idea. I like Grant, I like his designs, but,
he *is* half bonkers.

[* * Chas]

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-EEF951.19493209072007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <1395fnqc09qrb11@corp.supernews.com>,
> "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
> > "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > > In article <1183994705.366163.140380@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > > John <johnmcmurry@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+
> > >> > local bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even
> > >> > know what you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special
> > >> > ordered", but that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to
> > >> > pay through the nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety
> > >> > of both 700C and 26" wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of
> > >> > course, they can be easily ordered on line at competitive
> > >> > discounted prices directly by the end user.
> > >>
> > >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> > >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
> > >
> > > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60
> > > cm) with 26" wheels.
> >
> > A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run
> > 559 or even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped
> > road bike and with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride
> > was much more rattly than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame
> > is currently on the wall of my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell,
> > I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear tires on my Soma so as a tall
> > rider why in the world would I want to stick myself with 584 or 559
> > wheels?
>
> It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame from
> Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came with 26"
> wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller frames and 700C
> wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my mountain bike for
> several years (hence the choice of this frame rather than a road frame)
> and has been converted into my primary bike for brevets and touring.
> You can see the bike here:
>
> http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
>
> I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent tire so
> far.

Last year I picked up a classic 1987 Colnago MTB. This is my 1st and only
modern 26" bike. I've been riding off road with 700C wheels since 1976.

The tires were shot on the Colnago so I went looking for some crossover
tires that I could use both on and off road. I put on a set of Panaracer
Pasela 26 x 1.50 tires since I've been riding 700 x 25C and 28C Paselas on
several road bikes and really like them.

The ride was nice and smooth on the road but the bike handled weird both
on and off road. I switched to some Specialized 26 x 1.75 tires and they
feel a little better.

Chas.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 9, 8:37 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 5:49 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <1395fnqc09qr...@corp.supernews.com>,
>
> > "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > >news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > > > In article <1183994705.366163.140...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > > > John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > > >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+
> > > >> > local bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even
> > > >> > know what you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special
> > > >> > ordered", but that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to
> > > >> > pay through the nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety
> > > >> > of both 700C and 26" wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of
> > > >> > course, they can be easily ordered on line at competitive
> > > >> > discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > > >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> > > >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > > > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60
> > > > cm) with 26" wheels.
>
> > > A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run
> > > 559 or even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped
> > > road bike and with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride
> > > was much more rattly than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame
> > > is currently on the wall of my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell,
> > > I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear tires on my Soma so as a tall
> > > rider why in the world would I want to stick myself with 584 or 559
> > > wheels?
>
> > It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame from
> > Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came with 26"
> > wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller frames and 700C
> > wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my mountain bike for
> > several years (hence the choice of this frame rather than a road frame)
> > and has been converted into my primary bike for brevets and touring.
> > You can see the bike here:
>
> >http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
>
> > I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent tire so
> > far.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
> tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
> know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.

"the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement"? Do you have objective
data to confirm this? I'd be especially interested in seeing the data
on the diff of 559mm v. 584mm with similar/identical cross section
tires.

Don't hold back! ;-)


>
> And The Hobbit says, as pertains to the 603 boondoggle: It wasn't a
> joke, but, it's a stupid idea. I like Grant, I like his designs, but,
> he *is* half bonkers.-


Well, ain't *that* "the truth"!

[Tim McNamara]

In article <1184031455.616182.317220@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.c om>,
Joe Bernard <josephrbernard@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> > It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame
> > from Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came
> > with 26" wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller
> > frames and 700C wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my
> > mountain bike for several years (hence the choice of this frame
> > rather than a road frame) and has been converted into my primary
> > bike for brevets and touring. You can see the bike here:
> >
> > http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
> >
> > I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent
> > tire so far.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
> tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
> know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.

Until I got the Paselas, I've have agreed with you but no longer. I
tried a bunch of different tires over the past 11 years and found that
my average speeds were about 1 mph slower over the same rolling to hilly
routes as on my 700C bikes at the same perceived effort. With the
Paselas there is no difference according to my cycle computers
(calibrated by roll-out). The All-Rounder rolls just as well on these
tires as my road bikes with 700 x 25s.

[Joe Bernard]

On Jul 9, 7:07 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 8:37 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 9, 5:49 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > In article <1395fnqc09qr...@corp.supernews.com>,
>
> > > "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > > > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > > >news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > > > > In article <1183994705.366163.140...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > > > > John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > > > >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+
> > > > >> > local bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even
> > > > >> > know what you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special
> > > > >> > ordered", but that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to
> > > > >> > pay through the nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety
> > > > >> > of both 700C and 26" wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of
> > > > >> > course, they can be easily ordered on line at competitive
> > > > >> > discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > > > >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> > > > >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > > > > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60
> > > > > cm) with 26" wheels.
>
> > > > A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run
> > > > 559 or even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped
> > > > road bike and with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride
> > > > was much more rattly than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame
> > > > is currently on the wall of my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell,
> > > > I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear tires on my Soma so as a tall
> > > > rider why in the world would I want to stick myself with 584 or 559
> > > > wheels?
>
> > > It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame from
> > > Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came with 26"
> > > wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller frames and 700C
> > > wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my mountain bike for
> > > several years (hence the choice of this frame rather than a road frame)
> > > and has been converted into my primary bike for brevets and touring.
> > > You can see the bike here:
>
> > >http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
>
> > > I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent tire so
> > > far.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
> > tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
> > know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.
>
> "the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement"? Do you have objective
> data to confirm this? I'd be especially interested in seeing the data
> on the diff of 559mm v. 584mm with similar/identical cross section
> tires.
>
> Don't hold back! ;-)
>
>
>
> > And The Hobbit says, as pertains to the 603 boondoggle: It wasn't a
> > joke, but, it's a stupid idea. I like Grant, I like his designs, but,
> > he *is* half bonkers.-
>
> Well, ain't *that* "the truth"!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Objective data? What objective data? We don't need no OBJECTIVE DATA.
It's just my subjective data, dude. I've ridden 559, 584 and 622, and
I find I can feel the gyroscopic effect of the bigger wheels keeping
some momentum as I back off the pedals, whereas with the 26-inchers,
it feels like you're constantly pushing on them to keep them going.
C'mon, everybody knows that!

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 9, 9:48 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 7:07 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 8:37 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 9, 5:49 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <1395fnqc09qr...@corp.supernews.com>,
>
> > > > "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > > > > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > > > >news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > > > > > In article <1183994705.366163.140...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > > > > > John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > > > > >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+
> > > > > >> > local bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even
> > > > > >> > know what you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special
> > > > > >> > ordered", but that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to
> > > > > >> > pay through the nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety
> > > > > >> > of both 700C and 26" wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of
> > > > > >> > course, they can be easily ordered on line at competitive
> > > > > >> > discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > > > > >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> > > > > >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> > > > > > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60
> > > > > > cm) with 26" wheels.
>
> > > > > A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run
> > > > > 559 or even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped
> > > > > road bike and with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride
> > > > > was much more rattly than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame
> > > > > is currently on the wall of my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell,
> > > > > I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear tires on my Soma so as a tall
> > > > > rider why in the world would I want to stick myself with 584 or 559
> > > > > wheels?
>
> > > > It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame from
> > > > Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came with 26"
> > > > wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller frames and 700C
> > > > wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my mountain bike for
> > > > several years (hence the choice of this frame rather than a road frame)
> > > > and has been converted into my primary bike for brevets and touring.
> > > > You can see the bike here:
>
> > > >http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
>
> > > > I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent tire so
> > > > far.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
> > > tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
> > > know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.
>
> > "the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement"? Do you have objective
> > data to confirm this? I'd be especially interested in seeing the data
> > on the diff of 559mm v. 584mm with similar/identical cross section
> > tires.
>
> > Don't hold back! ;-)
>
> > > And The Hobbit says, as pertains to the 603 boondoggle: It wasn't a
> > > joke, but, it's a stupid idea. I like Grant, I like his designs, but,
> > > he *is* half bonkers.-
>
> > Well, ain't *that* "the truth"!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Objective data? What objective data? We don't need no OBJECTIVE DATA.
> It's just my subjective data, dude. I've ridden 559, 584 and 622, and
> I find I can feel the gyroscopic effect of the bigger wheels keeping
> some momentum as I back off the pedals, whereas with the 26-inchers,
> it feels like you're constantly pushing on them to keep them going.
> C'mon, everybody knows that!-


So, you have nada.......thought so.

[Michael Press]

In article
<1184035687.692217.218790@g37g2000prf.googlegroups. com>
,
Joe Bernard <josephrbernard@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Jul 9, 7:07 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 8:37 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 9, 5:49 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > In article <1395fnqc09qr...@corp.supernews.com>,
> >
> > > > "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > > > > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > > > >news:timmcn-E25EA1.15071009072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > > > > > In article <1183994705.366163.140...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > > > > > John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > >> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > > > > >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > >> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+
> > > > > >> > local bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even
> > > > > >> > know what you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special
> > > > > >> > ordered", but that's usually both an ordeal and an invitation to
> > > > > >> > pay through the nose. OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety
> > > > > >> > of both 700C and 26" wheels and tires *in stock*. And, of
> > > > > >> > course, they can be easily ordered on line at competitive
> > > > > >> > discounted prices directly by the end user.
> >
> > > > > >> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires,
> > > > > >> will also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
> >
> > > > > > One of my bikes (a Rivendell All-Rounder) is a largish frame (60
> > > > > > cm) with 26" wheels.
> >
> > > > > A 60cm with 26" wheels? For a large frame I see zero reason to run
> > > > > 559 or even 584. I couldn't find decent tires for my 559 equipped
> > > > > road bike and with Specialized 26x1.25" tires I had on it the ride
> > > > > was much more rattly than my 622 and 630 equipped bikes so that frame
> > > > > is currently on the wall of my garage awaiting a repurposing. Hell,
> > > > > I can fit 52mm front, and 44mm rear tires on my Soma so as a tall
> > > > > rider why in the world would I want to stick myself with 584 or 559
> > > > > wheels?
> >
> > > > It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame from
> > > > Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came with 26"
> > > > wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller frames and 700C
> > > > wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my mountain bike for
> > > > several years (hence the choice of this frame rather than a road frame)
> > > > and has been converted into my primary bike for brevets and touring.
> > > > You can see the bike here:
> >
> > > >http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
> >
> > > > I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent tire so
> > > > far.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
> > > tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
> > > know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.
> >
> > "the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement"? Do you have objective
> > data to confirm this? I'd be especially interested in seeing the data
> > on the diff of 559mm v. 584mm with similar/identical cross section
> > tires.
> >
> > Don't hold back! ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > > And The Hobbit says, as pertains to the 603 boondoggle: It wasn't a
> > > joke, but, it's a stupid idea. I like Grant, I like his designs, but,
> > > he *is* half bonkers.-
> >
> > Well, ain't *that* "the truth"!- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Objective data? What objective data? We don't need no OBJECTIVE DATA.
> It's just my subjective data, dude. I've ridden 559, 584 and 622, and
> I find I can feel the gyroscopic effect of the bigger wheels keeping
> some momentum as I back off the pedals, whereas with the 26-inchers,
> it feels like you're constantly pushing on them to keep them going.
> C'mon, everybody knows that!

IT'S TRUE! My 630 wheels are even faster.

--
Michael Press

[Joe Bernard]

On Jul 9, 9:42 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <1184031455.616182.317...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.c om>,
> Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame
> > > from Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came
> > > with 26" wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller
> > > frames and 700C wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my
> > > mountain bike for several years (hence the choice of this frame
> > > rather than a road frame) and has been converted into my primary
> > > bike for brevets and touring. You can see the bike here:
>
> > >http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
>
> > > I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent
> > > tire so far.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
> > tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
> > know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.
>
> Until I got the Paselas, I've have agreed with you but no longer. I
> tried a bunch of different tires over the past 11 years and found that
> my average speeds were about 1 mph slower over the same rolling to hilly
> routes as on my 700C bikes at the same perceived effort. With the
> Paselas there is no difference according to my cycle computers
> (calibrated by roll-out). The All-Rounder rolls just as well on these
> tires as my road bikes with 700 x 25s.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well then, Ozark's got it all worked out and I'm an idiot. That's OK,
I'm married. I'm used to it. Ozark wins again!

[* * Chas]

"Joe Bernard" <josephrbernard@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1184048908.787761.177480@g37g2000prf.googlegr oups.com...

<snip>

>
> Well then, Ozark's got it all worked out and I'm an idiot. That's OK,
> I'm married. I'm used to it. Ozark wins again!
>

"Hmmph! FINE!" ( a dangerous word coming from the little lady... )
;-)

Chas.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 10, 1:28 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 9:42 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <1184031455.616182.317...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.c om>,
> > Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > > It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame
> > > > from Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came
> > > > with 26" wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller
> > > > frames and 700C wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my
> > > > mountain bike for several years (hence the choice of this frame
> > > > rather than a road frame) and has been converted into my primary
> > > > bike for brevets and touring. You can see the bike here:
>
> > > >http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html
>
> > > > I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent
> > > > tire so far.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
> > > tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
> > > know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.
>
> > Until I got the Paselas, I've have agreed with you but no longer. I
> > tried a bunch of different tires over the past 11 years and found that
> > my average speeds were about 1 mph slower over the same rolling to hilly
> > routes as on my 700C bikes at the same perceived effort. With the
> > Paselas there is no difference according to my cycle computers
> > (calibrated by roll-out). The All-Rounder rolls just as well on these
> > tires as my road bikes with 700 x 25s.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Well then, Ozark's got it all worked out and I'm an idiot. That's OK,
> I'm married. I'm used to it. Ozark wins again!-


Now available: "Life as a Zero Sum Game" - by Joe Bernard, with a
special introduction by the Pied Piper of Bicycle Hooey, Grant Petersen

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.
>
> > > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.
>
> > > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.
>
> > > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?
>
> > > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.
>
> > > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.
>
> > > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > > things.
>
> > > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > > cripe's sake.
>
> > > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > > and shellacking bar tape.
>
> > > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.
>
> > > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.
>
> > > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > > these things. ;-)
>
> > > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > > the bowels of Alabama.
>
> > > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-
>
> > > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.
>
> > > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > > pretty clear.
>
> > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.
>
> > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.
>
> Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
> Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
> worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
> been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
> discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?
>
> Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
> performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!
>
> Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
> slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
> current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:
>
> http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...


Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)




>
> Moreover, Performance offers several 26" road tires that they call
> "city" tires from different mfrs including Michelin, Continental,
> GEAX, and of course its own Forte brand.
>
> Note, Gaerlan, gtgtandems and Sheldon Brown still offer 26" Avocet
> tires for those who are still interested.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Sheldon Brown]

Someone wrote:

> Note, Gaerlan, gtgtandems andSheldon Brownstill offer 26" Avocet
> tires for those who are still interested.

Alas, I was just informed today that the last of the Avocet 559 mm (26
x [decimal]) FasGrip slicks are gone.

We still have Avocet's Cross tires, but they're not all that special.

The Schwalbe Kojak looks like a good substitute for the Avocets. I
haven't tried them though. (These days all of my riding is on
Greenspeed Scorchers, 349 mm (16 x [fraction]. They're great tires,
but don't come in larger sizes.)

Sheldon "Bald Is Beautiful" Brown
+-------------------------------------------+
| How to Write Like A Wanker: |
| http://guidenet.net/resources/wanker.html |
+-------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[landotter]

On Jul 10, 12:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
> > performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!
>
> > Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
> > slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
> > current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:
>
> >http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...
>
> Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
> Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
> Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
> average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
> needed! ;-)
>

I really like that tire a lot. It rolls nicely like a 650B, but
without the twine getting all caught up in your spokes. The ST/K
version is $13 with a kevlar belt--which *does* seem to prevent flats--
at least the ones around here.

[John]

On Jul 10, 1:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <johnmcmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > In article <1183947517.691793.215...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>,
>
> > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > In article <jam293dafkos3beo2o6nmb0umouud1r...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > > > > still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > > > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verif