Re: Giro 2007 doping ? Not enough testosterone for Di Luca, etc...

[Doug Taylor]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:53:03 -0700, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

>
>> You embarrass yourselves.
>
>Lausanne, CH (AP) - WADA scientist Doug Taylor today
>gave international anti-doping efforts more ammunition
>as he demonstrated the results of scientific experiments
>showing that abuse of and elevated levels of testosterone
>dramatically reduce reading comprehension. In order to
>carry out the experiments ethically, Taylor bravely performed
>them on himself. "With these experiments, Doug Taylor
>follows in the footsteps of medical heroes such as Walter
>Reed and Jesse Lazear, the conquerors of yellow fever,"
>said **** Pound, chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency.
>Pound then fired Taylor and docked him a year's pay
>for violations of the WADA Code.

Yuck yuck.

The undeniable FACT, manifestly self-evident, is that the pro peloton
is a "culture of doping." The sponsors want exposure and press; the
teams pay for performance to attract the sponsors. The athletes are
between a rock and a hard place. If they don't dope, they can't be
competitive; if they aren't competitive, they don't get contracts,
salaries or endorsements; if they do dope, they risk getting caught
and suspended; if they admit it, they get no sympathy; AND, if they
breach Omerta, they're ostracized by their peers. Finally, if a team
and/or its athletes get bad press from busts or innuendo, the sponsors
- who started the ball rolling in the first place - pull the plug for
fear of negative exposure and bad press. A self perpetuating mess at
best.

The following quote from last summer was and still is the best
assessment of how dope is used in pro bike racing, precisely fitting
the objective facts, AND based upon first hand knowledge:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul07news3

German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg
Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he
believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high
level cycling

In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of
modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last
year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can
do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are
exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to
three days in order to regenerate."

To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used.
"Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he
said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard
testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy
on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose
is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping
test, but the body actually recovers faster."

Dr Moosburger went onto explain that, "The supply of oxygen to the
blood decides what the body is capable of in terms of fat- and
carbohydrate metabolism. This capacity is mostly genetically
determined.The muscles of athletes who are able to reach the top level
of sport can carry about 60 millilitres per kilo per minute in an
untrained condition. That of an average person is only about 40
millilitres per kilo. In order to be able to keep up with the world's
best, it must be 85 to 90 millilitres.

EPO helps oxygen carrying capacity, and has long been the performance
enhancing drug of choice in endurance sports. "It enables you to hold
the haematocrit of the blood in the upper level of what's allowed for
the whole season. Before the EPO test, for example, athletes injected
4000 units three times per week. Now they inject a small dose almost
daily."

Finally, in the opinion of Dr Moosburger, blood doping via transfusion
would give an athlete a five percent boost for two to three weeks.
"And therefore can last for a grand tour."

Accordingly, it would seem pretty friggin clear that ANY abnormalities
discovered in the blood of a bike racer after a race - high
testosterone, low testosterone, high haematocrit, etc. etc. etc. - is
confirmation of the presumed fact evident from the superhuman
performance. We'll let the system in place decide whether tests are
positive and sanctions will follow.

Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
complain about WADA nazis and **** Pound, if you want to be a jock
sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.

I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a ****.

[RicodJour]

On Jun 27, 8:57 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
> I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
> Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
> at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a ****.

Oh - my - gawd! You guys _breed_?! There goes what little peace of
mind I had.

R

[Bob Schwartz]

Doug Taylor wrote:
> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
> complain about WADA nazis and **** Pound, if you want to be a jock
> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.

Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.

Laff has public sex with his strawman fairly regularly. He's
not a positive role model in that respect.

Bob Schwartz

[Donald Munro]

Doug Taylor wrote:
>> I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
>> Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
>> at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a ****.

RicodJour wrote:
> Oh - my - gawd! You guys _breed_?! There goes what little peace of
> mind I had.

You forgot to ask whether they breed with each other.

[Doug Taylor]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
<bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Doug Taylor wrote:
>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
>> complain about WADA nazis and **** Pound, if you want to be a jock
>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
>
>Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
>regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
>the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.

OK. You (they) aren't in denial.

So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
results, buy into such idiocy and bull**** as Floyd Landis' "defense",
and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?

It's nutty.

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Doug Taylor wrote:
> So what about being a jock sniffing apologist?

I DON'T ****ING CARE ABOUT THE DOPE! Enough already. If everyone would
just shut daryap, we could enjoy the show again.

Bring back Hein.


--
E. Dronkert

[Bob Schwartz]

Doug Taylor wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
> <bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Doug Taylor wrote:
>>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
>>> complain about WADA nazis and **** Pound, if you want to be a jock
>>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
>> Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
>> regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
>> the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
>
> OK. You (they) aren't in denial.
>
> So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
> complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
> results, buy into such idiocy and bull**** as Floyd Landis' "defense",
> and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?
>
> It's nutty.

It's what happens when people get emotional over stuff that really isn't
that important. Once you are invested in your favorite athlete beyond
entertainment then an attack on their performance becomes more personal
than it ought to be. And defense mechanisms kick in.

Speaking for myself, my problem with the Pounder and WADA is they don't
respect the integrity of the process. That is what provides openings for
some of the behavior you mention. If they were US cops they'd get ground
up like hamburger by the court system, regardless of the guilt or
innocence of the accused.

If bike racing were important it might bother me more. But really, if
Barry Bonds is juiced or Joe College Football Lineman is juiced or
Marion Jones is juiced or Floyd is juiced or Lindsey Lohan is juiced
it matters little to me. On the list of things to be outraged about in
our society, doping among entertainers is pretty far down the list.

Bob Schwartz

[RonSonic]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:23:15 -0400, Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
><bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>Doug Taylor wrote:
>>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
>>> complain about WADA nazis and **** Pound, if you want to be a jock
>>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
>>
>>Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
>>regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
>>the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
>
>OK. You (they) aren't in denial.
>
>So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
>complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
>results, buy into such idiocy and bull**** as Floyd Landis' "defense",
>and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?

You're swinging wildly between specifics and very broad generalities.

The landis case has been an ongoing disaster of procedural, ethical and
administrative errors. Absolutely nothing was handled correctly since the
preemptive leak of adverse results by the UCI. Which simultaineously violated
the rider's rights and undermined confidence in the lab. That was in the first
minute of the "scandal." It got worse after that.

>It's nutty.

The cops gotta do their jobs and they have to do it in some way that is
credible.

The problems of chemistry in the Landis case are not nitpicking. Look at the
results obtained from repeated testings. If we charted that on a target I don't
think you could call it a group.

Ron

[RicodJour]

On Jun 27, 10:34 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
wrote:
>
> Bring back Hein.

Hein? As in Heineken? I'll drink to that! Fookin' hot out there
today.

R

[Carl Sundquist]

"Ewoud Dronkert" <firstname@lastname.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:q6t483pen7idd5b5t7g7hgu56bvg8amd2u@4ax.com...
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>> So what about being a jock sniffing apologist?
>
> I DON'T ****ING CARE ABOUT THE DOPE! Enough already. If everyone would
> just shut daryap, we could enjoy the show again.
>
> Bring back Hein.
>

Would it make you as happy as this guy?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2001/sep01/trackworlds/MGlance1.shtml

[Bill C]

On Jun 27, 10:56 am, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:29:31 -0500, Bob Schwartz
> > <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >> Doug Taylor wrote:
> >>> Meanwhile, if you want to remain in denial, if you want to whine and
> >>> complain about WADA nazis and **** Pound, if you want to be a jock
> >>> sniffing apologist, that is your privilege.
> >> Who's in denial? Off the top of my head I can't think of any
> >> regular posters here that maintain that there is no doping in
> >> the sport. Certainly not the one you are replying to.
>
> > OK. You (they) aren't in denial.
>
> > So what about being a jock sniffing apologist? Why do they whine and
> > complain so much, explain it away, make excuses, nit pick about test
> > results, buy into such idiocy and bull**** as Floyd Landis' "defense",
> > and shift blame for rider's doping to the dope cops, i.e. WADA?
>
> > It's nutty.
>
> It's what happens when people get emotional over stuff that really isn't
> that important. Once you are invested in your favorite athlete beyond
> entertainment then an attack on their performance becomes more personal
> than it ought to be. And defense mechanisms kick in.
>
> Speaking for myself, my problem with the Pounder and WADA is they don't
> respect the integrity of the process. That is what provides openings for
> some of the behavior you mention. If they were US cops they'd get ground
> up like hamburger by the court system, regardless of the guilt or
> innocence of the accused.
>
> If bike racing were important it might bother me more. But really, if
> Barry Bonds is juiced or Joe College Football Lineman is juiced or
> Marion Jones is juiced or Floyd is juiced or Lindsey Lohan is juiced
> it matters little to me. On the list of things to be outraged about in
> our society, doping among entertainers is pretty far down the list.
>
> Bob Schwartz- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Exactly Bob
The failure of the system, and the leaders integrity, is a much more
important issue than that of the riders. In the big picture none of it
is earthshaking. It's just happening in our little pond so we get
involved.
Bill C

[Donald Munro]

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>>
>> Bring back Hein.

RicodJour wrote:
> Hein? As in Heineken? I'll drink to that! Fookin' hot out there
> today.

Verbruggen beer comes in at 49.9%, so even the Russians would enjoy it.

[RicodJour]

On Jun 27, 11:28 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> >> I submit you are a naive dimwit residing on the planet lollipop in the
> >> Pollyanna galaxy. Keep your rose colored glasses on, and flame away
> >> at the Lafferties and Taylors of the world. Like we give a ****.
>
> RicodJour wrote:
> > Oh - my - gawd! You guys _breed_?! There goes what little peace of
> > mind I had.
>
> You forgot to ask whether they breed with each other.

It was implied - similar to the implied testosterone.

I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.

R

[Dan Gregory]

RicodJour wrote:

> I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
> Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
> honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.
I still remember the lyrics & meloday of a song I heard on
ThatWasTheWeekThatWas in the 60's
"copulazione's the Italian for love
Fornicazione's with the stars up above"
but I can't remember the actual song...

[Donald Munro]

RicodJour wrote:
> I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
> Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
> honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.

Personally I like a bit of panache sprinkled on my testosterone. Much
better than parmesian cheese (and at least we're back on fatty master
topic of food).

[G.T.]

Donald Munro wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>> I always thought testosterone sounded like an Italian dessert.
>> Zabaglione, torrone, pannettone, testosterone. Maybe it was all an
>> honest mistake and these guys just ordered from the wrong menu.
>
> Personally I like a bit of panache sprinkled on my testosterone. Much
> better than parmesian cheese (and at least we're back on fatty master
> topic of food).

Breakfast at le Tour:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

Greg

--
http://ticketmastersucks.org

[Doug Smith]

Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in news:1182961613.483199.221020
@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

>
> Exactly Bob
> The failure of the system, and the leaders integrity, is a much more
> important issue than that of the riders. In the big picture none of it
> is earthshaking. It's just happening in our little pond so we get
> involved.
> Bill C

Maybe that's also part of the problem. Shouldn't the riders also be
leaders?

It's true though, if you follow the power and the money you'll find the
origins of the problem. However, that does not mean that the riders need
to lose their intregity. Personally, I don't think any person or group's
integrity is more important than another and I'm not talking about just
cycling.

[RicodJour]

On Jun 27, 2:17 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
> Breakfast at le Tour:
>
> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
missed the other five.

R

[G.T.]

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1182970746.934825.297200@a26g2000pre.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jun 27, 2:17 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>
>> Breakfast at le Tour:
>>
>> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
>
> Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
> missed the other five.
>

Ok.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

[Donald Munro]

RicodJou wrote:
>> Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
>> missed the other five.

G.T. wrote:
> Ok.
>
> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

Dumbass,
If you want to sell that **** to the fatty masters here you really need
to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes, and
perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.

[G.T.]

"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4682c810$0$14779$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster. com...
> RicodJou wrote:
>>> Hey Sparky, why not post that in a few more threads in case someone
>>> missed the other five.
>
> G.T. wrote:
>> Ok.
>>
>> http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132
>
> Dumbass,
> If you want to sell that **** to the fatty masters here you really need
> to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes, and
> perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>

I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.

When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

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[RicodJour]

On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > Dumbass,
> > If you want to sell that **** to the fatty masters here you really need
> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes, and
> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>
> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>
> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?

It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.

R

[G.T.]

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > Dumbass,
>> > If you want to sell that **** to the fatty masters here you really need
>> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
>> > and
>> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>>
>> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>>
>> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>
> It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>

Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and you
r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

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[RicodJour]

On Jun 27, 6:02 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...
>
> > On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> >> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > Dumbass,
> >> > If you want to sell that **** to the fatty masters here you really need
> >> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
> >> > and
> >> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>
> >> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>
> >> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>
> > It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>
> Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and you
> r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.

Baaaaaaaaaaah!

R

[Bill C]

On Jun 27, 6:02 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...
>
> > On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> >> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > Dumbass,
> >> > If you want to sell that **** to the fatty masters here you really need
> >> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
> >> > and
> >> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>
> >> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>
> >> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>
> > It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>
> Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and you
> r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.
>
> Greg
> --
> Ticketbastard tax tracker:http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
>
> Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Nah. It applies to you in it's non salutory "****ing ******* July
troll" meaning.
Bill C

[G.T.]

"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1182986317.731420.17990@q75g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jun 27, 6:02 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1182979735.866605.213400@k29g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> > On Jun 27, 4:40 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> >> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> > Dumbass,
>> >> > If you want to sell that **** to the fatty masters here you really
>> >> > need
>> >> > to improve the packaging. At minimum you need carbon fibre syringes,
>> >> > and
>> >> > perhaps a free KOM jersey with every sixpack.
>>
>> >> I know, I know, I should have added some team kit in there.
>>
>> >> When did this whole dumbass salutation start in r.b.r., anyway? 2003?
>>
>> > It's not a standard salutation. You're just a dumbass.
>>
>> Au contraire, mon amie. Kurgan started it as a salutation in 2003 and
>> you
>> r.b.r. sheep uncreatively followed along.
>>
>
> Nah. It applies to you in it's non salutory "****ing ******* July
> troll" meaning.

Je ne comprends pas!!!?!!!

Greg
--
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