Re: OT: Constitutional Amendment discovered this week

[Cliff]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:47:15 -0700, "dustoyevsky@mac.com" <dustoyevsky@mac.com>
wrote:

>Ho Chi Minh (now there was a real bastard in my humble)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh
[
Following World War I, under the name of Nguy?n Ái Qu?c (Nguyen the Patriot), he
petitioned for equal rights in French Indochina on behalf of the Group of
Vietnamese Patriots to the Western powers at the Versailles peace talks, but was
ignored. Citing the language and the spirit of the U.S. Declaration of
Independence, Ho petitioned U.S. President Woodrow Wilson for help to remove the
French from Vietnam and replace it with a new, nationalist government. His
request was ignored.
]
[
In 1941, Ho returned to Vietnam to lead the Vi?t Minh independence movement. He
oversaw many successful military actions against the Vichy French and Japanese
occupation of Vietnam during World War II, supported closely but clandestinely
by the United States Office of Strategic Services, and also later against the
French bid to reoccupy the country (1946-1954). He was also jailed in China for
many months by Chiang Kai-shek's local authorities. After his release in 1943,
he again returned to Vietnam. He was treated for malaria and dysentery by
American OSS doctors.
]

[
On September 2, 1945, after Emperor Bao Dai's abdication, Ho Chi Minh read the
Declaration of Independence of Vietnam under the name of the Democratic Republic
of Vietnam. With violence between rival Vietnamese factions and French forces
spiraling, the British commander, General Sir Douglas Gracey declared martial
law. On September 24, the Viet Minh leaders responded with a call for a general
strike.
]

[
The 1954 Geneva Accords (which had not been signed by the United States or the
State of Vietnam) required that a national election would be held in 1956 to
reunite Vietnam under one government. The government of South Vietnam, now under
the leadership of Ngo Dinh Diem and supported by the United States, refused to
hold the stipulated elections, noting that Ho had introduced a police state and
refused to allow international observers, precluding a free election. Moreover,
most contemporary observers consider that if an election had been held in the
1954-55 period, around 80% of the Vietnamese population would have voted for Ho
Chi Minh.
]
[
[edit] Quotes
"Nothing is more precious than independence and liberty."
"I follow only one party: the Vietnamese party."
"You can kill ten of our men for every one we kill of yours. But even at those
odds, you will lose and we will win." (referring to France and America in their
wars in Vietnam)
"It is better to sacrifice everything than to live in slavery!"
"The Vietnamese people deeply love independence, freedom and peace. But in the
face of United States aggression they have risen up, united as one man."
"We have to win independence at any cost, even if the Truong Son mountains
burn."
"In (Lenin's Theses on the National and Colonial Questions) there were political
terms that were difficult to understand. But by reading them again and again
finally I was able to grasp the essential part. What emotion, enthusiasm,
enlightenment and confidence they communicated to me! I wept for joy. Sitting by
myself in my room, I would shout as if I were addressing large crowds: "Dear
martyr compatriots! This is what we need, this is our path to liberation!" Since
then (the 1920s) I had entire confidence in Lenin, in the Third International!"
"When the prison doors are opened, the real dragon will fly out."
"It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me."
"Remember, the storm is a good opportunity for the pine and the cypress to show
their strength and their stability."
"My only desire is that all of our Party and people, closely united in struggle,
construct a peaceful, unified, independent, democratic and prosperous, and make
a valiant contribution to the world Revolution." (Hanoi, May 10, 1969.)
“Better to eat the French dung for 100 years than the Chinese dung for
1,000.”[28]
]

http://www.vietnamembassy-usa.org/learn_about_vietnam/politics/constitution/
--
Cliff

[Bill C]

On Jun 28, 2:24 pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:47:15 -0700, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Ho Chi Minh (now there was a real bastard in my humble)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh
> [
> Following World War I, under the name of Nguy?n Ái Qu?c (Nguyen the Patriot), he
> petitioned for equal rights in French Indochina on behalf of the Group of
> Vietnamese Patriots to the Western powers at the Versailles peace talks, but was
> ignored. Citing the language and the spirit of the U.S. Declaration of
> Independence, Ho petitioned U.S. President Woodrow Wilson for help to remove the
> French from Vietnam and replace it with a new, nationalist government. His
> request was ignored.
> ]
> [
> In 1941, Ho returned to Vietnam to lead the Vi?t Minh independence movement. He
> oversaw many successful military actions against the Vichy French and Japanese
> occupation of Vietnam during World War II, supported closely but clandestinely
> by the United States Office of Strategic Services, and also later against the
> French bid to reoccupy the country (1946-1954). He was also jailed in China for
> many months by Chiang Kai-shek's local authorities. After his release in 1943,
> he again returned to Vietnam. He was treated for malaria and dysentery by
> American OSS doctors.
> ]
>
> [
> On September 2, 1945, after Emperor Bao Dai's abdication, Ho Chi Minh read the
> Declaration of Independence of Vietnam under the name of the Democratic Republic
> of Vietnam. With violence between rival Vietnamese factions and French forces
> spiraling, the British commander, General Sir Douglas Gracey declared martial
> law. On September 24, the Viet Minh leaders responded with a call for a general
> strike.
> ]
>
> [
> The 1954 Geneva Accords (which had not been signed by the United States or the
> State of Vietnam) required that a national election would be held in 1956 to
> reunite Vietnam under one government. The government of South Vietnam, now under
> the leadership of Ngo Dinh Diem and supported by the United States, refused to
> hold the stipulated elections, noting that Ho had introduced a police state and
> refused to allow international observers, precluding a free election. Moreover,
> most contemporary observers consider that if an election had been held in the
> 1954-55 period, around 80% of the Vietnamese population would have voted for Ho
> Chi Minh.
> ]
> [
> [edit] Quotes
> "Nothing is more precious than independence and liberty."
> "I follow only one party: the Vietnamese party."
> "You can kill ten of our men for every one we kill of yours. But even at those
> odds, you will lose and we will win." (referring to France and America in their
> wars in Vietnam)
> "It is better to sacrifice everything than to live in slavery!"
> "The Vietnamese people deeply love independence, freedom and peace. But in the
> face of United States aggression they have risen up, united as one man."
> "We have to win independence at any cost, even if the Truong Son mountains
> burn."
> "In (Lenin's Theses on the National and Colonial Questions) there were political
> terms that were difficult to understand. But by reading them again and again
> finally I was able to grasp the essential part. What emotion, enthusiasm,
> enlightenment and confidence they communicated to me! I wept for joy. Sitting by
> myself in my room, I would shout as if I were addressing large crowds: "Dear
> martyr compatriots! This is what we need, this is our path to liberation!" Since
> then (the 1920s) I had entire confidence in Lenin, in the Third International!"
> "When the prison doors are opened, the real dragon will fly out."
> "It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me."
> "Remember, the storm is a good opportunity for the pine and the cypress to show
> their strength and their stability."
> "My only desire is that all of our Party and people, closely united in struggle,
> construct a peaceful, unified, independent, democratic and prosperous, and make
> a valiant contribution to the world Revolution." (Hanoi, May 10, 1969.)
> "Better to eat the French dung for 100 years than the Chinese dung for
> 1,000."[28]
> ]
>
> http://www.vietnamembassy-usa.org/learn_about_vietnam/politics/consti...
> --
> Cliff

Hey Cliffie your a whack job too. Go read up on your paradise Vietnam
at Amnesty, HRW, and Freedom House.
Bill C

[Cliff]

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:46:13 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>Hey Cliffie your a whack job too. Go read up on your paradise Vietnam
>at Amnesty, HRW, and Freedom House.

The US was part of the reason there was a problem. A big part.
It is also NOW Vietnam's largest market.

Imperialism & corruption & supporting wingers ... bad idea.

Had instead help to Vietnam been offered ... as was requested ...
much cheaper too. And profitable sooner.
Long time til those profits pay off the war losses & dead now
though I fear. Vietnam lost millions of people too IIRC.
--
Cliff

[Bill C]

On Jun 28, 4:06 pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:46:13 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >Hey Cliffie your a whack job too. Go read up on your paradise Vietnam
> >at Amnesty, HRW, and Freedom House.
>
> The US was part of the reason there was a problem. A big part.
> It is also NOW Vietnam's largest market.
>
> Imperialism & corruption & supporting wingers ... bad idea.
>
> Had instead help to Vietnam been offered ... as was requested ...
> much cheaper too. And profitable sooner.
> Long time til those profits pay off the war losses & dead now
> though I fear. Vietnam lost millions of people too IIRC.
> --
> Cliff

You can call it anything you want and pretend it's a pretty place, but
it's not. Not even close to anywhere as free as a democratic country.
The human rights and basic freedoms are in line with any other
imperialistic/fascist/elitist/communist controlled country. The
handful at the top make the rules, brutally enforce them, and the
people are expendable because they are just cogs in the machine.
You love it when they spout rhetoric and ignore the real record. It's
just another brutal authoritarian state that is starting to realize
that's they can have even more power and wealth by loosening the
economy up a little.
We are happy to exploit that to make money with them. Large portions
of us suck, they suck, you cheer, and the people are still screwed.
Bill C

[Cliff]

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:24:17 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Jun 28, 4:06 pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:46:13 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >Hey Cliffie your a whack job too. Go read up on your paradise Vietnam
>> >at Amnesty, HRW, and Freedom House.
>>
>> The US was part of the reason there was a problem. A big part.
>> It is also NOW Vietnam's largest market.
>>
>> Imperialism & corruption & supporting wingers ... bad idea.
>>
>> Had instead help to Vietnam been offered ... as was requested ...
>> much cheaper too. And profitable sooner.
>> Long time til those profits pay off the war losses & dead now
>> though I fear. Vietnam lost millions of people too IIRC.

>You can call it anything you want and pretend it's a pretty place,

IIRC It used to be ... before Agent Orange (about 3,000,000
Vietnamese still suffer from the effects) & the US dropping
~ 6,715,000 tons of bombs ("by some estimates over 350,000 tons of
bombs that did not detonate when dropped remain in the ground"),
almost 2,000,000 dead ...

>but it's not.

And how did the dominoes turn out?

>Not even close to anywhere as free as a democratic country.

So they have more people in jails & prisons than the US does?

>The human rights and basic freedoms are in line with any other
>imperialistic/fascist/elitist/communist controlled country.

Do they kidnap people world-wide & torture them?
Do they observe their own constitution (based on the one
that the US USED to have IIRC)?

>The
>handful at the top make the rules, brutally enforce them, and the
>people are expendable because they are just cogs in the machine.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng
[
In 2006, 91 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran,
Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan and the USA.
]

Tell us about herr shrubbie, cheney & crew murdring 650,000 ++
in Iraq & Afghanistan again ... and abandoning about 4,000,000 ++
of the refugees they created ...

> You love it when they spout rhetoric and ignore the real record.

US Imports from Vietnam for2006: US$ 8.5 billion.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5520.html#2006

>It's
>just another brutal authoritarian state that is starting to realize
>that's they can have even more power and wealth by loosening the
>economy up a little.

Think it's another neocon "tax cut"?

> We are happy to exploit that to make money with them. Large portions
>of us suck, they suck, you cheer, and the people are still screwed.
>Bill C

More trade = more people better off, usually.
Corrupt them with McDonalds & Walmart ...
--
Cliff

[Bill C]

On Jun 29, 8:42 am, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:24:17 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Jun 28, 4:06 pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:46:13 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >Hey Cliffie your a whack job too. Go read up on your paradise Vietnam
> >> >at Amnesty, HRW, and Freedom House.
>
> >> The US was part of the reason there was a problem. A big part.
> >> It is also NOW Vietnam's largest market.
>
> >> Imperialism & corruption & supporting wingers ... bad idea.
>
> >> Had instead help to Vietnam been offered ... as was requested ...
> >> much cheaper too. And profitable sooner.
> >> Long time til those profits pay off the war losses & dead now
> >> though I fear. Vietnam lost millions of people too IIRC.
> >You can call it anything you want and pretend it's a pretty place,
>
> IIRC It used to be ... before Agent Orange (about 3,000,000
> Vietnamese still suffer from the effects) & the US dropping
> ~ 6,715,000 tons of bombs ("by some estimates over 350,000 tons of
> bombs that did not detonate when dropped remain in the ground"),
> almost 2,000,000 dead ...
>
> >but it's not.
>
> And how did the dominoes turn out?
>
> >Not even close to anywhere as free as a democratic country.
>
> So they have more people in jails & prisons than the US does?
>
> >The human rights and basic freedoms are in line with any other
> >imperialistic/fascist/elitist/communist controlled country.
>
> Do they kidnap people world-wide & torture them?
> Do they observe their own constitution (based on the one
> that the US USED to have IIRC)?
>
> >The
> >handful at the top make the rules, brutally enforce them, and the
> >people are expendable because they are just cogs in the machine.
>
> http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng
> [
> In 2006, 91 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran,
> Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan and the USA.
> ]
>
> Tell us about herr shrubbie, cheney & crew murdring 650,000 ++
> in Iraq & Afghanistan again ... and abandoning about 4,000,000 ++
> of the refugees they created ...
>
> > You love it when they spout rhetoric and ignore the real record.
>
> US Imports from Vietnam for2006: US$ 8.5 billion.
> http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5520.html#2006
>
> >It's
> >just another brutal authoritarian state that is starting to realize
> >that's they can have even more power and wealth by loosening the
> >economy up a little.
>
> Think it's another neocon "tax cut"?
>
> > We are happy to exploit that to make money with them. Large portions
> >of us suck, they suck, you cheer, and the people are still screwed.
> >Bill C
>
> More trade = more people better off, usually.
> Corrupt them with McDonalds & Walmart ...
> --
> Cliff- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You are a comoplete idiot who still apparently hasn't read what those
right wing nutcases at Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch
have to say. Then since you have no answer you are trying to argue
something totally different.
We have a hoard of incredibly reasonable and rational liberal left
types here, and we have already had this discussion in the past, in
detail. Thankfully you weren't here for that one since you, like now,
would add nothing.
You and Gunner are mirror images, and both way out to lunch.
You'd both be great in the Bush administration since any facts, and
primary source evidence you don't like is just thrown out, or the
conversation is spun inton something else.
I'm done with both of you. I have to wonder how long the others will
amuse themselves by getting you to perform for them.
Bill C

[RicodJour]

On Jun 29, 3:26 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 8:42 am, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
{whatever he wrote, I snipped it}
>
> You are a complete idiot who still apparently hasn't read what those
> right wing nutcases at Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch
> have to say. Then since you have no answer you are trying to argue
> something totally different.
> We have a hoard of incredibly reasonable and rational liberal left
> types here, and we have already had this discussion in the past, in
> detail. Thankfully you weren't here for that one since you, like now,
> would add nothing.
> You and Gunner are mirror images, and both way out to lunch.
> You'd both be great in the Bush administration since any facts, and
> primary source evidence you don't like is just thrown out, or the
> conversation is spun into something else.
> I'm done with both of you. I have to wonder how long the others will
> amuse themselves by getting you to perform for them.

Ignore the man behind the curtain!

Thanks for raining on the parade, Bill. ;)

R

[John Scheldroup]

"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message news:1183145173.081242.254830@u2g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jun 29, 8:42 am, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:24:17 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Jun 28, 4:06 pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:46:13 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> >Hey Cliffie your a whack job too. Go read up on your paradise Vietnam
>> >> >at Amnesty, HRW, and Freedom House.
>>
>> >> The US was part of the reason there was a problem. A big part.
>> >> It is also NOW Vietnam's largest market.
>>
>> >> Imperialism & corruption & supporting wingers ... bad idea.
>>
>> >> Had instead help to Vietnam been offered ... as was requested ...
>> >> much cheaper too. And profitable sooner.
>> >> Long time til those profits pay off the war losses & dead now
>> >> though I fear. Vietnam lost millions of people too IIRC.
>> >You can call it anything you want and pretend it's a pretty place,
>>
>> IIRC It used to be ... before Agent Orange (about 3,000,000
>> Vietnamese still suffer from the effects) & the US dropping
>> ~ 6,715,000 tons of bombs ("by some estimates over 350,000 tons of
>> bombs that did not detonate when dropped remain in the ground"),
>> almost 2,000,000 dead ...
>>
>> >but it's not.
>>
>> And how did the dominoes turn out?
>>
>> >Not even close to anywhere as free as a democratic country.
>>
>> So they have more people in jails & prisons than the US does?
>>
>> >The human rights and basic freedoms are in line with any other
>> >imperialistic/fascist/elitist/communist controlled country.
>>
>> Do they kidnap people world-wide & torture them?
>> Do they observe their own constitution (based on the one
>> that the US USED to have IIRC)?
>>
>> >The
>> >handful at the top make the rules, brutally enforce them, and the
>> >people are expendable because they are just cogs in the machine.
>>
>> http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng
>> [
>> In 2006, 91 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran,
>> Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan and the USA.
>> ]
>>
>> Tell us about herr shrubbie, cheney & crew murdring 650,000 ++
>> in Iraq & Afghanistan again ... and abandoning about 4,000,000 ++
>> of the refugees they created ...
>>
>> > You love it when they spout rhetoric and ignore the real record.
>>
>> US Imports from Vietnam for2006: US$ 8.5 billion.
>> http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5520.html#2006
>>
>> >It's
>> >just another brutal authoritarian state that is starting to realize
>> >that's they can have even more power and wealth by loosening the
>> >economy up a little.
>>
>> Think it's another neocon "tax cut"?
>>
>> > We are happy to exploit that to make money with them. Large portions
>> >of us suck, they suck, you cheer, and the people are still screwed.
>> >Bill C
>>
>> More trade = more people better off, usually.
>> Corrupt them with McDonalds & Walmart ...
>> --
>> Cliff- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> You are a comoplete idiot who still apparently hasn't read what those
> right wing nutcases at Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch
> have to say. Then since you have no answer you are trying to argue
> something totally different.
> We have a hoard of incredibly reasonable and rational liberal left
> types here, and we have already had this discussion in the past, in
> detail. Thankfully you weren't here for that one since you, like now,
> would add nothing.
> You and Gunner are mirror images, and both way out to lunch.
> You'd both be great in the Bush administration since any facts, and
> primary source evidence you don't like is just thrown out, or the
> conversation is spun inton something else.
> I'm done with both of you. I have to wonder how long the others will
> amuse themselves by getting you to perform for them.
> Bill C
>

C1huprich ?

John

[Cliff]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:26:13 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>You are a comoplete idiot who still apparently hasn't read what those
>right wing nutcases at Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch
>have to say. Then since you have no answer you are trying to argue
>something totally different.
> We have a hoard of incredibly reasonable and rational liberal left
>types here, and we have already had this discussion in the past, in
>detail. Thankfully you weren't here for that one since you, like now,
>would add nothing.
> You and Gunner are mirror images, and both way out to lunch.
>You'd both be great in the Bush administration since any facts, and
>primary source evidence you don't like is just thrown out, or the
>conversation is spun inton something else.
> I'm done with both of you. I have to wonder how long the others will
>amuse themselves by getting you to perform for them.

What you forget is that there are two sides to most such issues
and you only get/got the winger & imperialist propaganda (what a
patriot !!) Nor am I very good at trying to display much about
the other side.

The US could have *helped*, as it had been asked to. It did not.
The Age of Imperialism was over. It still is.

Did "South Vietnam" apply for Statehood in the US?
Nope.
Did the US offer "South Vietnam" Statehood?
Nope.
What would have ended the war in a few minutes?
US Statehood for "South Vietnam". Cheaper too,
no doubt.

Now, tell us about those dominoes .... or the faked "Gulf of Tonkin"
thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident
[
Although America attended the Geneva Conference (1954), it refused to sign the
Geneva Accords (1954). The Accords mandated, among other measures, a ceasefire
line, intended to separate Vietnamese independence and French forces, and
elections to determine the rulership of Vietnam on both sides of the line,
within 2 years. It also forbade the political interference of other countries in
the area, the creation of new governments without the stipulated elections, and
foreign military presence. America promptly subverted all of the measures of the
Accords at once when it installed anti-communist Ngo Dinh Diem as President of
South Vietnam, and gave him military backing. By 1961, poor decisions by Diem,
almost all against the counsel of his American advisors, including refusals to
hold elections, and attacks on Buddhism (the majority religion in southern
Vietnam), and other ethnic groups, had made him unpopular. In that year, a
popular uprising began, headed by the National Liberation Front. The U.S. also
began providing direct support to the South Vietnamese in the form of military
and financial aid and military advisors, the number of which grew from 600 in
1961 to 16,000 by the end of John F. Kennedy's presidency in 1963.

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred during the first year of the Johnson
administration. While Kennedy had originally supported the policy of sending
military advisors to Vietnam, he had begun to alter his thinking due to the
military ineptitude of the Saigon government and its inability and unwillingness
to make needed reforms. Shortly before his assassination in November 1963, he
had begun limited recall of American forces.
.....
According to the U.S. Naval Institute[2], a highly classified program of covert
attacks against the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam) known as
Operation 34A, had begun under the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in 1961. In
1964 the program was transferred to the Defense Department and conducted by the
Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group (SOG). For
the maritime portion of the covert operation, Tjeld-class fast patrol boats had
been purchased quietly from Norway and sent to South Vietnam. Although the crews
of the boats were South Vietnamese naval personnel, approval of the plan came
directly from Admiral U.S. Grant Sharp, CINCPAC in Honolulu. After the coastal
attacks began, Hanoi lodged a complaint with the International Control
Commission (ICC), which had been established in 1954 to oversee the terms of the
Geneva Accords, but the U.S. denied any involvement. Four years later, Secretary
of Defense Robert S. McNamara admitted to Congress that the U.S. ships had in
fact been cooperating in the South Vietnamese attacks against the DRV.
.....
On July 31, LDNN commandos in "Nasty" fast attack boats attacked a radio
transmitter on the island of Hon Nieu. On 3 August, they used a shipboard cannon
to bombard a radar site at Cape Vinh Son. The North Vietnamese responded by
attacking hostile ships visible in the area. While US officials were less than
honest about the full extent of hostilities that led to the Gulf of Tonkin
Resolution, critical claims that a naval commander fired weapons solely to
create an international incident tend to overlook circumstances and
opportunistic responses that suggest a less intentional motivation.
]

--
Cliff

[John Scheldroup]

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message news:1183146286.269743.72610@n2g2000hse.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Jun 29, 3:26 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Jun 29, 8:42 am, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
> {whatever he wrote, I snipped it}
>>
>> You are a complete idiot who still apparently hasn't read what those
>> right wing nutcases at Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch
>> have to say. Then since you have no answer you are trying to argue
>> something totally different.
>> We have a hoard of incredibly reasonable and rational liberal left
>> types here, and we have already had this discussion in the past, in
>> detail. Thankfully you weren't here for that one since you, like now,
>> would add nothing.
>> You and Gunner are mirror images, and both way out to lunch.
>> You'd both be great in the Bush administration since any facts, and
>> primary source evidence you don't like is just thrown out, or the
>> conversation is spun into something else.
>> I'm done with both of you. I have to wonder how long the others will
>> amuse themselves by getting you to perform for them.
>
> Ignore the man behind the curtain!
>
> Thanks for raining on the parade, Bill. ;)
>

What's Bill's last name anyone know ?

John

[Cliff]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:24:58 -0500, "John Scheldroup" <cty90143@centurytel.net>
wrote:

>C1huprich ?

Not this time. That one may have bitten the dust.
--
Cliff