Heart Rates and Lactate Threshhold

[Justin Lewis]

I am aware of the concept of LT or AT. Some claim it can be found
using the Conconni protocol. Others use lactate measurements.

Out of these sorts of tests one receives advice - this is the heart
rate you can maintain for about 1 hour (it can be expressed in terms
of wattage, I believe). The test was accurate for me: I had as an
average heartbeat the LT heartbeat for 72 minutes.

Question: if one is riding longer events (50 miles, 100 miles etc),
what heartbeat can be maintained for periods of 2 hours or 3 or 4
hours? Are they expressed as percantages of the LT heartbeat?

[rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com]

On Jun 30, 12:18 pm, Justin Lewis <sendmesomemores...@live.nl> wrote:
> I am aware of the concept of LT or AT. Some claim it can be found
> using the Conconni protocol. Others use lactate measurements.
>
> Out of these sorts of tests one receives advice - this is the heart
> rate you can maintain for about 1 hour (it can be expressed in terms
> of wattage, I believe). The test was accurate for me: I had as an
> average heartbeat the LT heartbeat for 72 minutes.
>
> Question: if one is riding longer events (50 miles, 100 miles etc),
> what heartbeat can be maintained for periods of 2 hours or 3 or 4
> hours? Are they expressed as percantages of the LT heartbeat?

Justin! How ya doing? What kind of bike are you riding?

Anyway, the heart rate you observe is a response to physiological
demands for cardiac output. Overall cardiac output = HR X stroke
volume, so you can see that HR is only a part of the equation.
Nonetheless, the sustainable HR over a 2 or 4 hour period will be
close to the LT HR, subject to HR drift.

Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
effort.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Jun 30, 1:24 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 30, 12:18 pm, Justin Lewis <sendmesomemores...@live.nl> wrote:
>
> > I am aware of the concept of LT or AT. Some claim it can be found
> > using the Conconni protocol. Others use lactate measurements.
>
> > Out of these sorts of tests one receives advice - this is the heart
> > rate you can maintain for about 1 hour (it can be expressed in terms
> > of wattage, I believe). The test was accurate for me: I had as an
> > average heartbeat the LT heartbeat for 72 minutes.
>
> > Question: if one is riding longer events (50 miles, 100 miles etc),
> > what heartbeat can be maintained for periods of 2 hours or 3 or 4
> > hours? Are they expressed as percantages of the LT heartbeat?
>
> Justin! How ya doing? What kind of bike are you riding?
>
> Anyway, the heart rate you observe is a response to physiological
> demands for cardiac output. Overall cardiac output = HR X stroke
> volume, so you can see that HR is only a part of the equation.
> Nonetheless, the sustainable HR over a 2 or 4 hour period will be
> close to the LT HR, subject to HR drift.
>
> Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
> effort.

HR drift in my experience is not significant for exercise in the 4
hour range. In my own case, drift is not noticable before 10-11 hours.

As far as what is maintainable for longer periods, I think fuel is
more of a limiting factor than lactate build up. In other words, how
much fat is being burned at this LT level, and can the supply (and
replenishment) of carbohydrate make up the difference.

Provided one has efficient enough fat metabolism, and enough available
carbs (glycogen, assimilatable food, whatever) there is no reason one
should not be able to maintain LT for 4 hours or more. LT by my
definition is the highest attainable output where blood lactate levels
remain stable.

Joseph

[Sandy]

Dans le message de
news:1183202642.813436.230770@k29g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com,
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com <rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com> a réfléchi, et
puis a déclaré :
> On Jun 30, 12:18 pm, Justin Lewis <sendmesomemores...@live.nl> wrote:
>> I am aware of the concept of LT or AT. Some claim it can be found
>> using the Conconni protocol. Others use lactate measurements.
>>
>> Out of these sorts of tests one receives advice - this is the heart
>> rate you can maintain for about 1 hour (it can be expressed in terms
>> of wattage, I believe). The test was accurate for me: I had as an
>> average heartbeat the LT heartbeat for 72 minutes.
>>
>> Question: if one is riding longer events (50 miles, 100 miles etc),
>> what heartbeat can be maintained for periods of 2 hours or 3 or 4
>> hours? Are they expressed as percantages of the LT heartbeat?
>
> Justin! How ya doing? What kind of bike are you riding?
>
> Anyway, the heart rate you observe is a response to physiological
> demands for cardiac output. Overall cardiac output = HR X stroke
> volume, so you can see that HR is only a part of the equation.
> Nonetheless, the sustainable HR over a 2 or 4 hour period will be
> close to the LT HR, subject to HR drift.
>
> Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
> effort.

OK, it's a response variable. But is it a reliable response variable ?
In other words, for those who have zero plans to acquire costly measurement
equipment, what deficits are there in using cardio information to guide
training ?
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

"Le Vin est la plus saine et la plus hygiénique des boissons."
- Louis Pasteur

[rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com]

On Jun 30, 1:49 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:

> > Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
> > effort.
>
> OK, it's a response variable. But is it a reliable response variable ?
> In other words, for those who have zero plans to acquire costly measurement
> equipment, what deficits are there in using cardio information to guide
> training ?

Well, for years riders used nothing other than a wristwatch and
perceived exertion to guide training so you can get by with very
little if need be. But the question isn't what deficits there are, the
question ought to be what advantages there are. Some people think that
one possible use is to help calibrate perceived exertion, though I
used a HRM for a handful of years and never had much success with
that. Perhaps it's because the terrain where I lived was quite hilly,
and although HR is a response variable it's not responsive enough. If
I didn't have a PM, I'd probably go all the way back to a wristwatch
and perceived exertion.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:49:00 +0200, "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote:

>for those who have zero plans to acquire costly measurement
>equipment, what deficits are there in using cardio information to guide
>training ?

HR varies a lot by how hydrated you are, external temperature, etc.
So you might end up riding slower or faster than you would otherwise.

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[Michael Press]

In article
<1183208289.121060.71370@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.c om>,
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 30, 1:24 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 12:18 pm, Justin Lewis <sendmesomemores...@live.nl> wrote:
> >
> > > I am aware of the concept of LT or AT. Some claim it can be found
> > > using the Conconni protocol. Others use lactate measurements.
> >
> > > Out of these sorts of tests one receives advice - this is the heart
> > > rate you can maintain for about 1 hour (it can be expressed in terms
> > > of wattage, I believe). The test was accurate for me: I had as an
> > > average heartbeat the LT heartbeat for 72 minutes.
> >
> > > Question: if one is riding longer events (50 miles, 100 miles etc),
> > > what heartbeat can be maintained for periods of 2 hours or 3 or 4
> > > hours? Are they expressed as percantages of the LT heartbeat?
> >
> > Justin! How ya doing? What kind of bike are you riding?
> >
> > Anyway, the heart rate you observe is a response to physiological
> > demands for cardiac output. Overall cardiac output = HR X stroke
> > volume, so you can see that HR is only a part of the equation.
> > Nonetheless, the sustainable HR over a 2 or 4 hour period will be
> > close to the LT HR, subject to HR drift.
> >
> > Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
> > effort.
>
> HR drift in my experience is not significant for exercise in the 4
> hour range. In my own case, drift is not noticable before 10-11 hours.
>
> As far as what is maintainable for longer periods, I think fuel is
> more of a limiting factor than lactate build up. In other words, how
> much fat is being burned at this LT level, and can the supply (and
> replenishment) of carbohydrate make up the difference.
>
> Provided one has efficient enough fat metabolism, and enough available
> carbs (glycogen, assimilatable food, whatever) there is no reason one
> should not be able to maintain LT for 4 hours or more. LT by my
> definition is the highest attainable output where blood lactate levels
> remain stable.

Blood lactate level is a response variable also.
It lags cellular H+.
<URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>

--
Michael Press

[rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com]

On Jun 30, 2:58 pm, Joseph wrote:

> HR drift in my experience is not significant for exercise in the 4
> hour range. In my own case, drift is not noticable before 10-11 hours.

You're lucky. For me, HR would drift with temperature and, I suppose,
hydration status.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Jun 30, 5:26 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 30, 1:49 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>
> > > Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
> > > effort.
>
> > OK, it's a response variable. But is it a reliable response variable ?
> > In other words, for those who have zero plans to acquire costly measurement
> > equipment, what deficits are there in using cardio information to guide
> > training ?
>
> Well, for years riders used nothing other than a wristwatch and
> perceived exertion to guide training so you can get by with very
> little if need be. But the question isn't what deficits there are, the
> question ought to be what advantages there are. Some people think that
> one possible use is to help calibrate perceived exertion, though I
> used a HRM for a handful of years and never had much success with
> that. Perhaps it's because the terrain where I lived was quite hilly,
> and although HR is a response variable it's not responsive enough. If
> I didn't have a PM, I'd probably go all the way back to a wristwatch
> and perceived exertion.

Hilly terrain is what makes using HRM as a pacing mechanism for me
seem less accurate than PE. Since the road is going up and down the
whole time and since HR lags at least a few seconds after a change in
effort I have to use my eyes and brain to estimate what my HR lag is
going to be based on how the road looks ahead. And since this is
difficult to do, I find it easier to just concentrate on PE the whole
time with an occasional glance at the HRM to see if I'm more or less
calibrated. As far as HR's utility as a training tool, I don't really
feel I am qualified to answer.

Joseph

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Jun 30, 5:29 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 30, 2:58 pm, Joseph wrote:
>
> > HR drift in my experience is not significant for exercise in the 4
> > hour range. In my own case, drift is not noticable before 10-11 hours.
>
> You're lucky. For me, HR would drift with temperature and, I suppose,
> hydration status.

I have not had the experience of long rides in varying weather
conditions. The temperature has been more or less consistently cold
which makes hydration not such an issue. The one long ride where it
was hot (relatively speaking) I did not wear my HRM so I don't know
what happened there. It may well be that I just have a more consistent
riding environment and this keeps drift at bay for a while. I don't
have a PM so I can't say whether HR drifts relative to power over time
for shorter (4 hour) rides, but it seems pretty consistent in terms of
max and PE. For example on my 540km race last weekend at about hour 6
my "getting dropped" threshold of 182 HR was just as accurate then as
it is 20 minutes into a 1 hour race.

Joseph

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Jun 30, 7:23 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <1183208289.121060.71...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.c om>,
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 1:24 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Jun 30, 12:18 pm, Justin Lewis <sendmesomemores...@live.nl> wrote:
>
> > > > I am aware of the concept of LT or AT. Some claim it can be found
> > > > using the Conconni protocol. Others use lactate measurements.
>
> > > > Out of these sorts of tests one receives advice - this is the heart
> > > > rate you can maintain for about 1 hour (it can be expressed in terms
> > > > of wattage, I believe). The test was accurate for me: I had as an
> > > > average heartbeat the LT heartbeat for 72 minutes.
>
> > > > Question: if one is riding longer events (50 miles, 100 miles etc),
> > > > what heartbeat can be maintained for periods of 2 hours or 3 or 4
> > > > hours? Are they expressed as percantages of the LT heartbeat?
>
> > > Justin! How ya doing? What kind of bike are you riding?
>
> > > Anyway, the heart rate you observe is a response to physiological
> > > demands for cardiac output. Overall cardiac output = HR X stroke
> > > volume, so you can see that HR is only a part of the equation.
> > > Nonetheless, the sustainable HR over a 2 or 4 hour period will be
> > > close to the LT HR, subject to HR drift.
>
> > > Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
> > > effort.
>
> > HR drift in my experience is not significant for exercise in the 4
> > hour range. In my own case, drift is not noticable before 10-11 hours.
>
> > As far as what is maintainable for longer periods, I think fuel is
> > more of a limiting factor than lactate build up. In other words, how
> > much fat is being burned at this LT level, and can the supply (and
> > replenishment) of carbohydrate make up the difference.
>
> > Provided one has efficient enough fat metabolism, and enough available
> > carbs (glycogen, assimilatable food, whatever) there is no reason one
> > should not be able to maintain LT for 4 hours or more. LT by my
> > definition is the highest attainable output where blood lactate levels
> > remain stable.
>
> Blood lactate level is a response variable also.
> It lags cellular H+.
> <URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
>
> --
> Michael Press

Indeed. In an effort to keep the hydrogen ion count down I have
experimented with "unnecessary" upper body movement to try to
metabolize some of the excess lactate when trying to maintain effort
levels above LT. The results have been needless to say inconclusive.
But for some unknown reason my fastest TT's have happened when
listening to music and dancing with my upper body. My playlist is
classified information.

Joseph

[Justin Lewis]

Gentlemen,

thanks for the replies. Whilst equivocal they give me food for
thought.
I am riding a Taiwanese frame with Ultegra and chorus. For the first
season in 22 years I am not racing and train hard for fun. At 49 years
old I suddenly felt that enough was enough.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 10:34:44 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 30, 7:23 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> In article
>> <1183208289.121060.71...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.c om>,
>> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>
>>
>>
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Jun 30, 1:24 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Jun 30, 12:18 pm, Justin Lewis <sendmesomemores...@live.nl> wrote:
>>
>> > > > I am aware of the concept of LT or AT. Some claim it can be found
>> > > > using the Conconni protocol. Others use lactate measurements.
>>
>> > > > Out of these sorts of tests one receives advice - this is the heart
>> > > > rate you can maintain for about 1 hour (it can be expressed in terms
>> > > > of wattage, I believe). The test was accurate for me: I had as an
>> > > > average heartbeat the LT heartbeat for 72 minutes.
>>
>> > > > Question: if one is riding longer events (50 miles, 100 miles etc),
>> > > > what heartbeat can be maintained for periods of 2 hours or 3 or 4
>> > > > hours? Are they expressed as percantages of the LT heartbeat?
>>
>> > > Justin! How ya doing? What kind of bike are you riding?
>>
>> > > Anyway, the heart rate you observe is a response to physiological
>> > > demands for cardiac output. Overall cardiac output = HR X stroke
>> > > volume, so you can see that HR is only a part of the equation.
>> > > Nonetheless, the sustainable HR over a 2 or 4 hour period will be
>> > > close to the LT HR, subject to HR drift.
>>
>> > > Given that HR is a response variable, it's not the ideal way to pace
>> > > effort.
>>
>> > HR drift in my experience is not significant for exercise in the 4
>> > hour range. In my own case, drift is not noticable before 10-11 hours.
>>
>> > As far as what is maintainable for longer periods, I think fuel is
>> > more of a limiting factor than lactate build up. In other words, how
>> > much fat is being burned at this LT level, and can the supply (and
>> > replenishment) of carbohydrate make up the difference.
>>
>> > Provided one has efficient enough fat metabolism, and enough available
>> > carbs (glycogen, assimilatable food, whatever) there is no reason one
>> > should not be able to maintain LT for 4 hours or more. LT by my
>> > definition is the highest attainable output where blood lactate levels
>> > remain stable.
>>
>> Blood lactate level is a response variable also.
>> It lags cellular H+.
>> <URL:http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Press
>
>Indeed. In an effort to keep the hydrogen ion count down I have
>experimented with "unnecessary" upper body movement to try to
>metabolize some of the excess lactate when trying to maintain effort
>levels above LT. The results have been needless to say inconclusive.
>But for some unknown reason my fastest TT's have happened when
>listening to music and dancing with my upper body. My playlist is
>classified information.
>
>Joseph