RIP - Encore

[Davey Crockett]

Another promising woman racer joins the Giro del Cielo

http://www.hoinews.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=39503

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply

[cyclintom@gmail.com]

On Jul 2, 5:30 am, Davey Crockett <daveycrocket...@azurservers.com>
wrote:
> Another promising woman racer joins the Giro del Cielo
>
> http://www.hoinews.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=39503

I'm actually sort of surprised that this doesn't happen more often to
those racing and training on public roads.

Last week I put in about 300+ miles on Washington state roads and
while most of the drivers were rather polite the drivers of those
motorhomes should probably be taught how to drive before being allowed
behind the wheels of those behemoths. And commercial truck drivers
didn't seem to be interested in avoiding cyclists either - especially
that company called Swift whose drivers seemed a great deal more
interested in traveling at the highest possible speed on public roads
regardless of speed limits or safety. Even on seldom used backroads a
Swift double semi-truck/trailer would pass by at very high speeds
moving no more than absolutely necessary to miss a cyclist.

And yet California, Washington and Oregon all issue tickets to auto
drivers not wearing seatbelts. You can tell where their sense of duty
lies - fascism over safety any day of the week.

[Davey Crockett]

cyclintom@gmail.com writes:

> On Jul 2, 5:30 am, Davey Crockett <daveycrocket...@azurservers.com>
> wrote:
>> Another promising woman racer joins the Giro del Cielo
>>
>> http://www.hoinews.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=39503
>
> I'm actually sort of surprised that this doesn't happen more often to
> those racing and training on public roads.
>
> Last week I put in about 300+ miles on Washington state roads and
> while most of the drivers were rather polite the drivers of those
> motorhomes should probably be taught how to drive before being allowed
> behind the wheels of those behemoths. And commercial truck drivers
> didn't seem to be interested in avoiding cyclists either - especially
> that company called Swift whose drivers seemed a great deal more
> interested in traveling at the highest possible speed on public roads
> regardless of speed limits or safety. Even on seldom used backroads a
> Swift double semi-truck/trailer would pass by at very high speeds
> moving no more than absolutely necessary to miss a cyclist.
>
> And yet California, Washington and Oregon all issue tickets to auto
> drivers not wearing seatbelts. You can tell where their sense of duty
> lies - fascism over safety any day of the week.
>

The driver of the vehicle involved seemed to be blameless though in
this particular instance since the woman racer was forced over the
center-line by a falling rider

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
Referee ColdCocked - Why doesn't McBoggy switch to BasketBall?
http://www.bofunk.com/video/621/basketball_ref_knock_out.html

[Simon Brooke]

in message <873b06o4p5.fsf@azurservers.com>, Davey Crockett
('daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com') wrote:

> The driver of the vehicle involved seemed to be blameless though in
> this particular instance since the woman racer was forced over the
> center-line by a falling rider

Horrible accident.

The person I really feel for is the rider who bumped Kobeszka. She must be
feeling dreadful just now.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; when in the ****, the wise man plants courgettes

[Tom Kunich]

"Davey Crockett" <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com> wrote in message
news:873b06o4p5.fsf@azurservers.com...
> cyclintom@gmail.com writes:
>
>> On Jul 2, 5:30 am, Davey Crockett <daveycrocket...@azurservers.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Another promising woman racer joins the Giro del Cielo
>>>
>>> http://www.hoinews.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=39503
>>
>> I'm actually sort of surprised that this doesn't happen more often to
>> those racing and training on public roads.
>
> The driver of the vehicle involved seemed to be blameless though in
> this particular instance since the woman racer was forced over the
> center-line by a falling rider

I would have thought that seeing a group racing, even on the other side of
the street might cause one to slow or even stop in case just such an
incident occurred. I would have slowed to near stop if I were passing a
peloton.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <kzhii.2992$rR.1401@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> "Davey Crockett" <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com> wrote in message
> news:873b06o4p5.fsf@azurservers.com...
> > cyclintom@gmail.com writes:
> >
> >> On Jul 2, 5:30 am, Davey Crockett <daveycrocket...@azurservers.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Another promising woman racer joins the Giro del Cielo
> >>>
> >>> http://www.hoinews.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=39503
> >>
> >> I'm actually sort of surprised that this doesn't happen more often to
> >> those racing and training on public roads.
> >
> > The driver of the vehicle involved seemed to be blameless though in
> > this particular instance since the woman racer was forced over the
> > center-line by a falling rider
>
> I would have thought that seeing a group racing, even on the other side of
> the street might cause one to slow or even stop in case just such an
> incident occurred. I would have slowed to near stop if I were passing a
> peloton.

Yesbut...it is not your obligation to do so. It is the obligation of the
racers to stay on their side of the road.

Sometimes the yellow line rule is tragically self-enforcing.

If there was a manifest danger at that point in the course, then the
marshals should be dealing with it (be that putting cones a foot inside
the yellow line, getting a permit to take an extra lane, shrinking the
field, move the race to some other course...). But given the standard
state of marshalling on this continent, I suspect this was just a
typical freak accident, of the kind that rarely occurs.

Sometimes, people just die. In the last two weeks a rider of my
acquaintance died in a bizarre MUP accident, and a member of our club
died of a heart attack on a training ride.

Meanwhile, I'm mostly worried about the fact that when my riding volume
drops, my weight balloons.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Tom Kunich]

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:rcousine-ABB498.08245603072007@news.telus.net...
> In article <kzhii.2992$rR.1401@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> I would have thought that seeing a group racing, even on the other side
>> of
>> the street might cause one to slow or even stop in case just such an
>> incident occurred. I would have slowed to near stop if I were passing a
>> peloton.
>
> Yesbut...it is not your obligation to do so. It is the obligation of the
> racers to stay on their side of the road.

It is the obligation of every driver to AVOID an accident. That means that
in any cases where there might be increased danger you are absolutely
obligated to use increased care. A peloton is ALWAYS an increased danger
since their actions and attention are focused on high physical exersion
which reduces their intellectual capacity making them liable to make
mistakes.

The pretense that passing traffic isn't responsible to be aware of this is
simply incorrect.

[RonSonic]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:27:36 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
>news:rcousine-ABB498.08245603072007@news.telus.net...
>> In article <kzhii.2992$rR.1401@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>,
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would have thought that seeing a group racing, even on the other side
>>> of
>>> the street might cause one to slow or even stop in case just such an
>>> incident occurred. I would have slowed to near stop if I were passing a
>>> peloton.
>>
>> Yesbut...it is not your obligation to do so. It is the obligation of the
>> racers to stay on their side of the road.
>
>It is the obligation of every driver to AVOID an accident. That means that
>in any cases where there might be increased danger you are absolutely
>obligated to use increased care. A peloton is ALWAYS an increased danger
>since their actions and attention are focused on high physical exersion
>which reduces their intellectual capacity making them liable to make
>mistakes.
>
>The pretense that passing traffic isn't responsible to be aware of this is
>simply incorrect.

The pretense that oncoming traffic will be aware of this responsibility as you
present it is simply unrealistic.

You can't have it both ways: You cannot expect cars to treat you like a vehicle
that belongs on the road while treating you like something special, deserving
of extra room and caution and reduced speeds.

Ron

[mal]

Clearly this is a BS discussion in light of the tragedy.

The circumstances are not explained. You seem to assume that the driver had
a clear view up the road, saw the peloton and kept flying down the highway.

That's not been said anywhere. Why don't you give it a rest. There seems to
be plenty of advice to spread around. To the organizers of the race, to the
police, to the riders in the group. Take your pick.

[Davey Crockett]

"mal" <malcolm1009@comcast.net> writes:

> Clearly this is a BS discussion in light of the tragedy.
>
> The circumstances are not explained. You seem to assume that the driver had
> a clear view up the road, saw the peloton and kept flying down the highway.
>
> That's not been said anywhere. Why don't you give it a rest. There seems to
> be plenty of advice to spread around. To the organizers of the race, to the
> police, to the riders in the group. Take your pick.
>
>

Right. When I made the original post it was intended to be a sincere
Obituary announcement

But it spiralled down from there

There are however ramifications, not least of which is that the local
Police, Council or whomever might be inclined to Nix any application
for such an event in future

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
-
Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties,
nations and epochs, it is the rule. - Friedrich Nietzsche

[Kyle Legate]

Davey Crockett wrote:
>
> There are however ramifications, not least of which is that the local
> Police, Council or whomever might be inclined to Nix any application
> for such an event in future
>

At the risk of sounding crass, that's exactly what I thought when I
first read the news.

[Dan Gregory]

From Cycling News

Bahler killed en route to Giro

> The women's peloton will lineup for tomorrow's Giro d'Italian
Femminile without Fenixs - HPB's Liane Bahler, after the German rider
was killed while traveling to the Italian event. The 25 year-old was
killed in a car accident while heading to the airport, where she was
scheduled to fly to Italy overnight.
>
> "I had already very looked forward to our meeting," wrote teammate
Suzie Godart on her website. "This loss is a large shock for me, my
husband and the total Team Fenixs-HPB."
>
> Bahler was one of eight riders slated to ride for the squad at the
upcoming women's Giro, while Godart was listed amongst the squad's
reserve riders.
>
> "Liane, we will never forget you!," concluded Godart's heartfelt message.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <5f3sqhF3an212U1@mid.individual.net>,
Dan Gregory <dangregory@brakes.palaver.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> From Cycling News
>
> Bahler killed en route to Giro
>
> > The women's peloton will lineup for tomorrow's Giro d'Italian
> Femminile without Fenixs - HPB's Liane Bahler, after the German rider
> was killed while traveling to the Italian event. The 25 year-old was
> killed in a car accident while heading to the airport, where she was
> scheduled to fly to Italy overnight.
> >
> > "I had already very looked forward to our meeting," wrote teammate
> Suzie Godart on her website. "This loss is a large shock for me, my
> husband and the total Team Fenixs-HPB."
> >
> > Bahler was one of eight riders slated to ride for the squad at the
> upcoming women's Giro, while Godart was listed amongst the squad's
> reserve riders.
> >
> > "Liane, we will never forget you!," concluded Godart's heartfelt message.

I can't help feel this would not have happened had other cars given her
more room as they passed.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Donald Munro]

RonSonic wrote:
> You can't have it both ways: You cannot expect cars to treat you like a vehicle
> that belongs on the road while treating you like something special, deserving
> of extra room and caution and reduced speeds.

When I'm driving I would distinguish between a single rider and a large
peleton in a race. Personally I always pull over and wait for a large
bunch to go by, but thats probably just because I'm a cyclist and I get
nervous at what could go wrong. I expect the general public couldn't
really care less due to ignorance, for example I've seen cars pass within
cm's of beginner cyclists going over train tracks while I would always
back off and wait until they were over because I know what could go wrong
if they catch their wheels in the tracks. Most people seem to think its
worth killing someone just to arrive where you're going 1/10 of a second
earlier.

[Tom Kunich]

"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:c2tp839tseq0rv8ms4ktbud0oethdpsp8l@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:27:36 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
>>news:rcousine-ABB498.08245603072007@news.telus.net...
>>> In article <kzhii.2992$rR.1401@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>,
>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought that seeing a group racing, even on the other side
>>>> of
>>>> the street might cause one to slow or even stop in case just such an
>>>> incident occurred. I would have slowed to near stop if I were passing a
>>>> peloton.
>>>
>>> Yesbut...it is not your obligation to do so. It is the obligation of the
>>> racers to stay on their side of the road.
>>
>>It is the obligation of every driver to AVOID an accident. That means that
>>in any cases where there might be increased danger you are absolutely
>>obligated to use increased care. A peloton is ALWAYS an increased danger
>>since their actions and attention are focused on high physical exersion
>>which reduces their intellectual capacity making them liable to make
>>mistakes.
>>
>>The pretense that passing traffic isn't responsible to be aware of this is
>>simply incorrect.
>
> The pretense that oncoming traffic will be aware of this responsibility as
> you
> present it is simply unrealistic.
>
> You can't have it both ways: You cannot expect cars to treat you like a
> vehicle
> that belongs on the road while treating you like something special,
> deserving
> of extra room and caution and reduced speeds.

Do you understand the difference between a pedestrian and a person competing
in a marathon? Do you understand the difference between a bicycle commuter
and a racing peloton?

[Michael Press]

In article
<468cfa05$0$14769$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote:

> RonSonic wrote:
> > You can't have it both ways: You cannot expect cars to treat you like a vehicle
> > that belongs on the road while treating you like something special, deserving
> > of extra room and caution and reduced speeds.
>
> When I'm driving I would distinguish between a single rider and a large
> peleton in a race. Personally I always pull over and wait for a large
> bunch to go by, but thats probably just because I'm a cyclist and I get
> nervous at what could go wrong. I expect the general public couldn't
> really care less due to ignorance, for example I've seen cars pass within
> cm's of beginner cyclists going over train tracks while I would always
> back off and wait until they were over because I know what could go wrong
> if they catch their wheels in the tracks. Most people seem to think its
> worth killing someone just to arrive where you're going 1/10 of a second
> earlier.

My theory is that being considerate is for losers.

--
Michael Press

[RonSonic]

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:47:37 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:c2tp839tseq0rv8ms4ktbud0oethdpsp8l@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:27:36 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
>>>news:rcousine-ABB498.08245603072007@news.telus.net...
>>>> In article <kzhii.2992$rR.1401@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>,
>>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would have thought that seeing a group racing, even on the other side
>>>>> of
>>>>> the street might cause one to slow or even stop in case just such an
>>>>> incident occurred. I would have slowed to near stop if I were passing a
>>>>> peloton.
>>>>
>>>> Yesbut...it is not your obligation to do so. It is the obligation of the
>>>> racers to stay on their side of the road.
>>>
>>>It is the obligation of every driver to AVOID an accident. That means that
>>>in any cases where there might be increased danger you are absolutely
>>>obligated to use increased care. A peloton is ALWAYS an increased danger
>>>since their actions and attention are focused on high physical exersion
>>>which reduces their intellectual capacity making them liable to make
>>>mistakes.
>>>
>>>The pretense that passing traffic isn't responsible to be aware of this is
>>>simply incorrect.
>>
>> The pretense that oncoming traffic will be aware of this responsibility as
>> you
>> present it is simply unrealistic.
>>
>> You can't have it both ways: You cannot expect cars to treat you like a
>> vehicle
>> that belongs on the road while treating you like something special,
>> deserving
>> of extra room and caution and reduced speeds.
>
>Do you understand the difference between a pedestrian and a person competing
>in a marathon? Do you understand the difference between a bicycle commuter
>and a racing peloton?

What I understand and perceive has nothing whatso****ingever to do with the
behaviors of the sort of people who run over cyclists. A couple years ago we had
a local senior citizen plow through a club ride in his caddy. I don't think he
was operating on the same observational or experiential basis as me or you.

Ron