Working together on the descent?

[Michael Press]

16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
together on the descent.

Can this really be true? I suppose if Rider A is an
artist he can take the lead and Rider B can mark the
line. If neither is an accomplished descender there can
be no advantage.

--
Michael Press

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Michael Press schreef:
> "16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
> Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
> together on the descent."
>
> Can this really be true?

In my experience, two descend faster than one, almost always. It's very
easy to follow on descents, even when the man in front does not cut the
corners very well. And it helps when accelerating away from those corners.


--
E. Dronkert

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Michael Press schreef:
> "16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
> Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
> together on the descent."
>
> Can this really be true?

In my experience, two descend faster than one, almost always. It's very
easy to follow on descents, even when the man in front does not cut the
corners very well. And it helps when accelerating away from those corners.


--
E. Dronkert

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:52:36 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
>Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
>together on the descent.
>
>Can this really be true?

Yes, they can take turns drafting each other. People do that in bike
races.

--
JT
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[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:52:36 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
>Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
>together on the descent.
>
>Can this really be true?

Yes, they can take turns drafting each other. People do that in bike
races.

--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[Geraard Spergen]

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Michael Press schreef:
>> "16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
>> Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
>> together on the descent."
>>
>> Can this really be true?
>
> In my experience, two descend faster than one, almost always. It's very
> easy to follow on descents, even when the man in front does not cut the
> corners very well. And it helps when accelerating away from those corners.

Does it also help to rotate?

[Geraard Spergen]

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Michael Press schreef:
>> "16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
>> Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
>> together on the descent."
>>
>> Can this really be true?
>
> In my experience, two descend faster than one, almost always. It's very
> easy to follow on descents, even when the man in front does not cut the
> corners very well. And it helps when accelerating away from those corners.

Does it also help to rotate?

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <00e88252$0$28097$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
Geraard Spergen <GSpergen@spammagnet.net> wrote:

> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> > Michael Press schreef:
> >> "16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
> >> Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
> >> together on the descent."
> >>
> >> Can this really be true?
> >
> > In my experience, two descend faster than one, almost always. It's very
> > easy to follow on descents, even when the man in front does not cut the
> > corners very well. And it helps when accelerating away from those corners.
>
> Does it also help to rotate?

I think so. The rider in the draft is moving faster than he would solo,
so he naturally passes the lead rider with that bit of momentum. Then
the former-lead rider drafts, speeds up, and passes back.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Also, if there's any speed to be gained by pedaling, then lead rider
pedals, trailing rider drafts, etc.

On very technical descents, I think the advantage is neutralized, and
for larger packs, maybe even negative against a very skilled rider. See
Landis, Floyd, making time on the final descent against a chasing pack
during the Epic Stage last year.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <00e88252$0$28097$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
Geraard Spergen <GSpergen@spammagnet.net> wrote:

> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> > Michael Press schreef:
> >> "16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
> >> Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
> >> together on the descent."
> >>
> >> Can this really be true?
> >
> > In my experience, two descend faster than one, almost always. It's very
> > easy to follow on descents, even when the man in front does not cut the
> > corners very well. And it helps when accelerating away from those corners.
>
> Does it also help to rotate?

I think so. The rider in the draft is moving faster than he would solo,
so he naturally passes the lead rider with that bit of momentum. Then
the former-lead rider drafts, speeds up, and passes back.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Also, if there's any speed to be gained by pedaling, then lead rider
pedals, trailing rider drafts, etc.

On very technical descents, I think the advantage is neutralized, and
for larger packs, maybe even negative against a very skilled rider. See
Landis, Floyd, making time on the final descent against a chasing pack
during the Epic Stage last year.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Michael Press]

In article
<p5kq93l3qjqfvdsk465sh1vb3crujdjg13@4ax.com>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:52:36 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
> >Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
> >together on the descent.
> >
> >Can this really be true?
>
> Yes, they can take turns drafting each other. People do that in bike
> races.

Thank you for explaining that to me.

--
Michael Press

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Geraard Spergen <GSpergen@spammagnet.net> wrote:
>> Does it also help to rotate?
>
> I think so. The rider in the draft is moving faster than he would solo,
> so he naturally passes the lead rider with that bit of momentum. Then
> the former-lead rider drafts, speeds up, and passes back.
>
> Lather, rinse, repeat.
>
> Also, if there's any speed to be gained by pedaling, then lead rider
> pedals, trailing rider drafts, etc.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.
Leading the way: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/maratona03-1.jpg


--
E. Dronkert

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <sqcr93d8m7n6skq6jr9mpkf4st5j2rafel@4ax.com>,
Ewoud Dronkert <firstname@lastname.net.invalid> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Geraard Spergen <GSpergen@spammagnet.net> wrote:
> >> Does it also help to rotate?
> >
> > I think so. The rider in the draft is moving faster than he would solo,
> > so he naturally passes the lead rider with that bit of momentum. Then
> > the former-lead rider drafts, speeds up, and passes back.
> >
> > Lather, rinse, repeat.
> >
> > Also, if there's any speed to be gained by pedaling, then lead rider
> > pedals, trailing rider drafts, etc.
>
> Yes, that is exactly what I meant.
> Leading the way: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/maratona03-1.jpg

Looking sharp, Livedronkert! But the leather bar tape and STI shifters
cause cognitive dissonance. Next time, go with Campy Veloce (carbon
shifters look silly with tan leather).

Descending is something of a specialty of mine, but unfortunately, this
is because it's the only place my weight helps.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Donald Munro]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Descending is something of a specialty of mine, but unfortunately, this
> is because it's the only place my weight helps.

Have you considered bobsleigh or even the WWF ?

[Ewoud Dronkert]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> the leather bar tape and STI shifters
> cause cognitive dissonance. Next time, go with Campy Veloce (carbon
> shifters look silly with tan leather).

May look like leather, but it's (dirty) orange stretch foam. I mean,
just regular bar tape.

Never had Campagnolo. My hands don't like the shape of the hoods.


--
E. Dronkert

[Simon Brooke]

in message <rcousine-9FA129.23504517072007@news.telus.net>, Ryan Cousineau
('rcousine@sfu.ca') wrote:

> Descending is something of a specialty of mine, but unfortunately, this
> is because it's the only place my weight helps.

AOL.

If you can't hold 'em on the climb, catch 'em on the descent. Leave brain
at home before trying.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
murther
-- Robert Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'

[gerrit]

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:rcousine-9FA129.23504517072007@news.telus.net...
SNIP
>
> Descending is something of a specialty of mine, but unfortunately, this
> is because it's the only place my weight helps.
>

Wasn't it Galileo who dropped two differently weighted cannon balls from the
Leaning Tower of Pisa to see which hit the dirt first?

Gerrit

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <469dc91c$0$9825$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com>,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Descending is something of a specialty of mine, but unfortunately, this
> > is because it's the only place my weight helps.
>
> Have you considered bobsleigh or even the WWF ?

I'm not that fat, and I'm really not that crazy.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<469dd7fb$0$12821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
"gerrit" <gthart@sad.au> wrote:

> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> news:rcousine-9FA129.23504517072007@news.telus.net...
> SNIP
> >
> > Descending is something of a specialty of mine, but unfortunately, this
> > is because it's the only place my weight helps.
> >
>
> Wasn't it Galileo who dropped two differently weighted cannon balls from the
> Leaning Tower of Pisa to see which hit the dirt first?
>
> Gerrit

Please to be attempting the following experiment: fill one balloon with
water and fill the other one to the same dimensions with air.

Which one will hit the ground first? Why?

News from 1952:
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,890257,00.html
(see last paragraph)

Nature abhors a vacuum, Galileo abhorred an atmosphere,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Dan Connelly]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <p5kq93l3qjqfvdsk465sh1vb3crujdjg13@4ax.com>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:52:36 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 16:09 CEST 123.5km/36km to go Contador is catching
>>> Popovych...that's good timing, as the two can work
>>> together on the descent.
>>>
>>> Can this really be true?
>> Yes, they can take turns drafting each other. People do that in bike
>> races.
>
> Thank you for explaining that to me.
>

Consider a typical case for an aero tuck (CdA = 0.2 m^2, mass = 70 kg, rho = 1.1 kg/m^3). Then, for a grade g, you can calculate the terminal velocity as follows:

CdA rho
------- vmax^2 = M g grade
2


Consider being able to pedal effectively up to 20 meters per second. This terminal velocity then corresponds to a grade of 6.4%. In other words, for grades less than this, there is benefit in pedaling.... and therefore in pacelining. Even for relatively steep climbs, there's typically shallower sections, below this threshold.

Even in the absence of pedaling, a paceline will allow the group to be limited by the terminal velocity of the heaviest rider, rather than the lightest.

Dan

[Tom Kunich]

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:rcousine-81CA7E.17464518072007@news.telus.net...
>
> Nature abhors a vacuum, Galileo abhorred an atmosphere,

The atmosphere around here isn't that nice today either. Not to mention that
the vacuum seems to be inside so many people's heads.