Kid killed by dooring

[dgk]

Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
lost control of his bike:
http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pag=461&dept_id=542415

I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

[gds]

On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>
> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

>From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

[gds]

On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>
> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.

>From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
so?

[David L. Johnson]

gds wrote:
> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
>> lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>>
>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>
>>From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> so?
>
So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

--

David L. Johnson

And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you killed
all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds, thousands would
rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't kill that fast.
-- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

[David L. Johnson]

gds wrote:
> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
>> lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>>
>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>
>>From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> so?
>
So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
certainly is some story behind it.

--

David L. Johnson

And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you killed
all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds, thousands would
rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't kill that fast.
-- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

[Roger Zoul]

gds wrote:
:: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
::: and
::: lost control of his
:::
bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
:::
::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
::
::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
:: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
:: so?

It's...a guess of what's more likely to have happened....not the laying of
blame.

[Roger Zoul]

gds wrote:
:: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
::: and
::: lost control of his
:::
bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
:::
::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
::
::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
:: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
:: so?

It's...a guess of what's more likely to have happened....not the laying of
blame.

[dgk]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:22:17 -0700, gds <gary_jill@msn.com> wrote:

>On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
>> lost control of his bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>>
>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>
>>From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
>opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
>so?

Because in 45+ years I have never seen anyone bike into an open door.
I have often seen doors flung open into my path and have avoided
almost all of them, but have gotten clipped twice.

[bigjim@backpacker.com]

Anything is possible with the POB's ride in cities. He may have been
on cell phone inattentive, may have been blasting ipod and not paying
attention. Could have been riding wrong way where its difficult to
see potential door openers. I've seen enough foolish POB's and enough
bad motorists to know that anything is possible.
Pedestrians are also foolish but some are quick to blame motorists.

On Jun 27, 5:09 pm, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> gds wrote:
>
> :: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> ::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
> ::: and
> ::: lost control of his
> :::
> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
> :::
> ::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
> ::
> ::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> :: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> :: so?
>
> It's...a guess of what's more likely to have happened....not the laying of
> blame.

[bigjim@backpacker.com]

Anything is possible with the POB's ride in cities. He may have been
on cell phone inattentive, may have been blasting ipod and not paying
attention. Could have been riding wrong way where its difficult to
see potential door openers. I've seen enough foolish POB's and enough
bad motorists to know that anything is possible.
Pedestrians are also foolish but some are quick to blame motorists.

On Jun 27, 5:09 pm, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> gds wrote:
>
> :: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> ::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
> ::: and
> ::: lost control of his
> :::
> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
> :::
> ::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
> ::
> ::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> :: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> :: so?
>
> It's...a guess of what's more likely to have happened....not the laying of
> blame.

[Peter Cole]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> gds wrote:
>> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
>>> lost control of his
>>> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>>>
>>>
>>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>>
>>> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
>> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
>> so?
>>
> So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> certainly is some story behind it.
>

Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
authoritative.

[Peter Cole]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> gds wrote:
>> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
>>> lost control of his
>>> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>>>
>>>
>>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>>
>>> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
>> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
>> so?
>>
> So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> certainly is some story behind it.
>

Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
authoritative.

[hl@helsinki.fi.invalid]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> certainly is some story behind it.

He was doored. According to New York Post:


ÇAR DOOR' CRASH KILLS BICYCLIST
By JOHN DOYLE and LORENA MONGELLI

June 23, 2007 -- A 17-year-old riding his bike to work at a Brooklyn
restaurant was killed yesterday when a car door opened in front of
him - sending him flying into the street, where he was run over by a
school bus, police said.

Luis Ramos, of Maspeth, Queens, was riding with his brother on
Flushing Avenue in Williamsburg at 9 a.m. when a woman in a car
opened her driver-side door in Ramos' path.

Ramos slammed into the door, flew over his handlebars and fell into
traffic, where a school bus ran over him.

"I saw all the police and my heart jumped," said Lucas Ramos, 23,
riding behind his brother as they headed to their jobs as kitchen
help at Georgie's Restaurant.

"I raced over there and I saw my brother dead on the street. I wanted
to hug him but the police told me not to."

No summonses were issued, and no kids were on the school bus.

Ramos was rushed to Woodhull Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

[raamman@gmail.com]

On Jun 28, 10:14 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > gds wrote:
> >> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> >>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> >>> lost control of his
> >>> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>
> >>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>
> >>> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> >> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> >> so?
>
> > So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> > was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> > look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> > article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> > certainly is some story behind it.
>
> Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
> Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
> zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
> reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
> learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
> authoritative.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I wonder who owns the car ? probabally a cop.

[raamman@gmail.com]

On Jun 28, 10:14 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > gds wrote:
> >> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> >>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> >>> lost control of his
> >>> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>
> >>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>
> >>> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> >> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> >> so?
>
> > So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> > was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> > look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> > article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> > certainly is some story behind it.
>
> Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
> Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
> zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
> reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
> learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
> authoritative.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I wonder who owns the car ? probabally a cop.

[r15757@aol.com]

On Jun 28, 8:14 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > gds wrote:
> >> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> >>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> >>> lost control of his
> >>> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>
> >>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>
> >>> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> >> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> >> so?
>
> > So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> > was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> > look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> > article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> > certainly is some story behind it.
>
> Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
> Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
> zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
> reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
> learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
> authoritative.


Kids and others will ride in door zones even if there is no bike lane
though.

Robert

[r15757@aol.com]

On Jun 28, 8:14 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > gds wrote:
> >> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> >>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door and
> >>> lost control of his
> >>> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>
> >>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>
> >>> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
> >> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
> >> so?
>
> > So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> > was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> > look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> > article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> > certainly is some story behind it.
>
> Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
> Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
> zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
> reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
> learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
> authoritative.


Kids and others will ride in door zones even if there is no bike lane
though.

Robert

[max]

In article <6tydneLJ9PqjXx7bnZ2dnUVZ_q6vnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Peter Cole <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote:

> Anybody who rides around parallel parked cars knows the hazard.
> Typically around here (Boston) bike lanes are striped right in the door
> zone. I have stressed over & over to my kids not to ride within a door's
> reach no matter what the stripes seem to recommend. I hope they've
> learned, bit I have my doubts. Those damn lines can seem awfully
> authoritative.

ya... Just a couple of weeks ago, in downtown Batavia Il, respondent wasn't
paying attention to TDZ found himself >milliseconds< away from eating a
SHINY black Jetta door at about 18 mph on his commuter-rigged MTB. It was a
_very_ close call.

And I certainly do know better. In this case, one pleads to going home
after a long midnight shift and being of diminished capacity. I posted a
brief cautionary retelling to my bike list at work.

..max

[catzz66]

dgk wrote:
>
>
> Because in 45+ years I have never seen anyone bike into an open door.
> I have often seen doors flung open into my path and have avoided
> almost all of them, but have gotten clipped twice.

There was a "Neil" on this NG who ran into an open door a year or so ago
and trashed his pretty new bike. I ride mostly in a residential area
with some business and his wreck caused me to give a lot more clearance
to parked cars. I can see how in a place like Brooklyn, a rider might
have difficulty doing that.

[Roger Zoul]

dgk wrote:
:: On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:22:17 -0700, gds <gary_jill@msn.com> wrote:
::
::: On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
:::: Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
:::: and
:::: lost control of his
::::
bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
::::
:::: I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
:::
:::: From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
::: opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to do
::: so?
::
:: Because in 45+ years I have never seen anyone bike into an open door.
:: I have often seen doors flung open into my path and have avoided
:: almost all of them, but have gotten clipped twice.

Not only that....if you consider the habits of drivers....it is very routine
for someone in a car to just let the door hang open....while the driver is
busy doing something else and oblivious to the fact that they door is
hanging open into traffic. It amazes me that drivers seem to assume that
they own the space next to the car on the drivers side. We really need doors
that open up, rather than out, so that the foot print of the auto remains
fixed in the horizontal plane.

[Bill Sornson]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> dgk wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:22:17 -0700, gds <gary_jill@msn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 27, 11:07 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>>>>> Note that in the article, the kid apparently just rode into a door
>>>>> and
>>>>> lost control of his
>>>>>
> bike:http://www.timesledger.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18523216&brd=2676&pa...
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt it. I bet the door was opened in his path.
>>>>
>>>>> From the article there is not nearly enough information to form an
>>>> opinion as to blame one way or the other. Why are you so quick to
>>>> do so?
>>>
>>> Because in 45+ years I have never seen anyone bike into an open
>>> door. I have often seen doors flung open into my path and have
>>> avoided almost all of them, but have gotten clipped twice.
>
> Not only that....if you consider the habits of drivers....it is very
> routine for someone in a car to just let the door hang open....while
> the driver is busy doing something else and oblivious to the fact
> that they door is hanging open into traffic. It amazes me that
> drivers seem to assume that they own the space next to the car on the
> drivers side. We really need doors that open up, rather than out, so
> that the foot print of the auto remains fixed in the horizontal plane.

I'd still rather contend with a wide-open door than one that's flung out at
the last second. Any day.

Why didn't the car owner/operator get a ticket in this case? His or her
insurance company almost definitely will use that to avoid paying the
victim's family "full value" for the loss (pain, suffering, funeral costs,
etc.).

Sad story all around.

[Roger Zoul]

hl@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
:: David L. Johnson wrote:
::: So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly
::: someone was getting out of the car, and opened the door without
::: even thinking to look. We all know that happens all the time. It
::: is curious that the article suggested that the door was just
::: hanging out there, open. There certainly is some story behind it.
::
:: He was doored. According to New York Post:
::
::

Well, obviously, this was the most likely situation. No sane rider, even a
kid, would run into a door just sitting open.


:: ÇAR DOOR' CRASH KILLS BICYCLIST
:: By JOHN DOYLE and LORENA MONGELLI
::
:: June 23, 2007 -- A 17-year-old riding his bike to work at a Brooklyn
:: restaurant was killed yesterday when a car door opened in front of
:: him - sending him flying into the street, where he was run over by a
:: school bus, police said.

[David L. Johnson]

hl@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:

> He was doored. According to New York Post:

As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was made of
who committed the act which killed this kid. That person should at
least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder, is it just
that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault --- the guy was
stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he expect? --- or is the
person who killed him being protected?

--

David L. Johnson

The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.

[gds]

On Jun 29, 6:05 am, h...@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > So, you think the door was just left open? Doubtful. Certainly someone
> > was getting out of the car, and opened the door without even thinking to
> > look. We all know that happens all the time. It is curious that the
> > article suggested that the door was just hanging out there, open. There
> > certainly is some story behind it.
>
> He was doored. According to New York Post:
>
> ÇAR DOOR' CRASH KILLS BICYCLIST
> By JOHN DOYLE and LORENA MONGELLI
>
> June 23, 2007 -- A 17-year-old riding his bike to work at a Brooklyn
> restaurant was killed yesterday when a car door opened in front of
> him - sending him flying into the street, where he was run over by a
> school bus, police said.
>
> Luis Ramos, of Maspeth, Queens, was riding with his brother on
> Flushing Avenue in Williamsburg at 9 a.m. when a woman in a car
> opened her driver-side door in Ramos' path.
>
> Ramos slammed into the door, flew over his handlebars and fell into
> traffic, where a school bus ran over him.
>
> "I saw all the police and my heart jumped," said Lucas Ramos, 23,
> riding behind his brother as they headed to their jobs as kitchen
> help at Georgie's Restaurant.
>
> "I raced over there and I saw my brother dead on the street. I wanted
> to hug him but the police told me not to."
>
> No summonses were issued, and no kids were on the school bus.
>
> Ramos was rushed to Woodhull Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Now from that report one can conclude what was concluded by the OP. Of
course unless you have a normal amount of skeptism about anything in
the NY Post

[gds]

On Jun 29, 6:47 am, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Well, obviously, this was the most likely situation. No sane rider, even a
> kid, would run into a door just sitting open.
>


It may not be a issue of sanity. There can also be the level of
attention. Two years ago there was a tragic death here of a very good
17 year old rider who was out on an early morning training ride. After
cresting a short steep hill he literally ran into the back of a parked
truck and died. The truck was parked on a wide shoulder but there was
no doubt that it was parked and had been for some time. While no one
knows for sure what happened the main supposition is that the cyclist
was heads down riding up the hill and simply did not look up.

The whole issue of dooring is complicated and as you say it is really
hard to easily assess blame. Most folks will check their side view
mirror and then open. It is much more likely that they will not see a
cyclist as compared to a motor vehicle.
I don't know what the laws are in NY but here in AZ citatiions are
often not issued if the investigating officer determines that there
was no fault evenif the outcome is bad. So, for example if a
pedestrian is hit OUTSIDE OF A CROSSWALK and the driver was not
speeding, reckless or impaired it is likely that they will not be
cited.
Without getting into an argument on the specifics of this or some
other case that makes sense to me in many situations and not in others.

[Roger Zoul]

David L. Johnson wrote:
:: hl@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
::: David L. Johnson wrote:
::
::: He was doored. According to New York Post:
::
:: As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was
:: made of who committed the act which killed this kid. That person
:: should at least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder,
:: is it just that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault
:: --- the guy was stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he
:: expect? --- or is the person who killed him being protected?

Now that we seem to know more about what happened (not that it was hard to
make a good guess), I still find the issue of placing blame to be difficult.

Yes, this person likely - without a lot of thought - opened her door into
the the path of an on-coming cyclist and in doing so caused his death. I
must admit that I ALWAYS check for on-coming cars before I flop my door
open. But I ride bikes for fun. I'm also just cautious like that, since I
don't my door to be ripped off by some car coming.

However, if a cyclist is on coming from the right angle, a check of the
rear-view mirror might result in the cyclist being in a "blind spot". Hence,
if the driver only checked the rear view, she might not have seen the
cyclist. And since cyclists don't typically make a lot of noise....

Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really just an
unfortunately accident....

[Bob]

On Jun 29, 8:57 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu>
wrote:
> h...@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
> > David L. Johnson wrote:
> > He was doored. According to New York Post:
>
> As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was made of
> who committed the act which killed this kid. That person should at
> least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder, is it just
> that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault --- the guy was
> stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he expect? --- or is the
> person who killed him being protected?
>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.

Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
"killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly blame the
bus driver can we? Not every act that ultimately results an accidental
death should be prosecuted as a criminal act. IMO issuing the woman in
this case a traffic ticket for improper opening of a car door seems
almost insulting to the surviving family.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[David L. Johnson]

Roger Zoul wrote:

> Yes, this person likely - without a lot of thought - opened her door into
> the the path of an on-coming cyclist and in doing so caused his death. I
> must admit that I ALWAYS check for on-coming cars before I flop my door
> open. But I ride bikes for fun. I'm also just cautious like that, since I
> don't my door to be ripped off by some car coming.

The last dooring I witnessed was car-or-car. Woman pulled up to a curb
in a parking lot (a no-parking zone, of course), flung her door open,
and had it ripped off by another car. I really felt for the poor kid
driving the other car. She was very upset, had never had anything like
this happen before, and of course the ***** who opened her door without
looking was blaming this kid. The cops straightened her out -- but it
seems to matter more when it's another car involved, rather than some
kid on a bike.
>
> However, if a cyclist is on coming from the right angle, a check of the
> rear-view mirror might result in the cyclist being in a "blind spot".

This story seems like it might have been a left-rear passenger. It
pointedly did not say the woman was the driver of that car. She would
not have had a mirror to look through, and so had every reason to turn
her head and look.

> Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really just an
> unfortunately accident....

Of course is was an accident. No one is suggesting that the woman did
this intentionally.

--

David L. Johnson

Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of business.

[dgk]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:08:33 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>David L. Johnson wrote:
>:: hl@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
>::: David L. Johnson wrote:
>::
>::: He was doored. According to New York Post:
>::
>:: As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was
>:: made of who committed the act which killed this kid. That person
>:: should at least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder,
>:: is it just that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault
>:: --- the guy was stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he
>:: expect? --- or is the person who killed him being protected?
>
>Now that we seem to know more about what happened (not that it was hard to
>make a good guess), I still find the issue of placing blame to be difficult.
>
>Yes, this person likely - without a lot of thought - opened her door into
>the the path of an on-coming cyclist and in doing so caused his death. I
>must admit that I ALWAYS check for on-coming cars before I flop my door
>open. But I ride bikes for fun. I'm also just cautious like that, since I
>don't my door to be ripped off by some car coming.
>
>However, if a cyclist is on coming from the right angle, a check of the
>rear-view mirror might result in the cyclist being in a "blind spot". Hence,
>if the driver only checked the rear view, she might not have seen the
>cyclist. And since cyclists don't typically make a lot of noise....
>
>Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really just an
>unfortunately accident....
>

I believe that it is illegal in NYC to open a door in a way that
creates a hazard. It is the job of the person opening the door (not
only driver) to make sure that it is safe.

[Paul Myron Hobson]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really just an
> unfortunately accident....



Wasn't a young woman killed in a *very* similar matter about a year,
year and a half ago? I could swear I remember a woman on a fixie being
doored and then flung into traffic.

\\paul

[Roger Zoul]

Paul Myron Hobson wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really
::: just an unfortunately accident....
::
::
::
:: Wasn't a young woman killed in a *very* similar matter about a year,
:: year and a half ago? I could swear I remember a woman on a fixie
:: being doored and then flung into traffic.

That wouldn't surprise me....though the being flung into traffic part is
something more to be considered.


/off thread comment
BTW, you live in Atlanta, right?

I rode the Silver Comet Trail twice this year. The first time was in
Feburary on a very cold day. We only did 40 miles but it was great! We
could see ice hanging from the rocks in several places.

I rode it again in May of this year. This time we did 78 miles. It was even
greater! Once you get beyond the parts were there is a lot of roads to stop
for traffic, it was really a great trail to ride. Saw almost every kind of
cyclist you can imagine, too. Funny how the mix of cyclist, walkers,
runners, moms with kids in tow, all seem to mix up on there. I imagine there
can be some serious accidents too.

I guess I just hijacked this thread...oh well...this is usenet :(
/off thread comment over...

[Paul Turner]

On Jun 29, 9:17 am, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu> wrote:

> Wasn't a young woman killed in a *very* similar matter about a year,
> year and a half ago? I could swear I remember a woman on a fixie being
> doored and then flung into traffic.

There was an incident in Cambridge, Massachusetts, about two years
ago, if I remember correctly. A woman was killed by a bus after being
doored while riding through Harvard Square. The facts sound similar to
those in this case. The bus driver in the Cambridge incident was
exonerated; I don't remember hearing what happened to the parked
driver.

--
Paul Turner

[Paul Myron Hobson]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> /off thread comment
> BTW, you live in Atlanta, right?
>
> I rode the Silver Comet Trail twice this year. The first time was in
> Feburary on a very cold day. We only did 40 miles but it was great! We
> could see ice hanging from the rocks in several places.
>
> I rode it again in May of this year. This time we did 78 miles. It was even
> greater! Once you get beyond the parts were there is a lot of roads to stop
> for traffic, it was really a great trail to ride. Saw almost every kind of
> cyclist you can imagine, too. Funny how the mix of cyclist, walkers,
> runners, moms with kids in tow, all seem to mix up on there. I imagine there
> can be some serious accidents too.
>
> I guess I just hijacked this thread...oh well...this is usenet :(
> /off thread comment over...

I do live in Atlanta. I've only made it out to the SCT about 5 or 6
times, but I'm heading out there tomorrow to "train." Now that I'm back
on a bike, my goal is to ride to Birmingham to visit my parents in the
fall. So a buddy and I are going to do 60 miles. Normally, I'd feel
bad about training on the only piece of flat land in GA's Piedmont, but
hell, that's the route to Alabama!

And speaking of going far: when you go underneath the loonggg tunnel
that gets so cold even in the spring...man that's cool. Also, if you
have a single speed or fixie, that's what you want to take on the trail.
I left my uncle (4 day/week group ridin' type) like 5 minutes in the
dust on the slight but long grade out there. When he shifted down a
gear or two, I was stuck in 48x18 and took off.

For better or for worse, most of my riding is urban to/from school and
the store, so I don't get out and "train" nearly enough. If you're ever
in town again, drop me line, we'll get a casual 40 in or something
(ride, not beer).
\\paul
--
f = ph to reply

[Neil Brooks]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:13:21 -0700, gds <gary_jill@msn.com> wrote:

> Most folks will check their side view
>mirror and then open.

Boy, how I wish that had been my experience.

I see heads looking down at the passenger seat, with hands on the door
handle ... opening without looking ... all ... the ... time.

[Roger Zoul]

catzz66 wrote:
:: dgk wrote:
:::
:::
::: Because in 45+ years I have never seen anyone bike into an open
::: door. I have often seen doors flung open into my path and have
::: avoided almost all of them, but have gotten clipped twice.
::
:: There was a "Neil" on this NG who ran into an open door a year or so
:: ago and trashed his pretty new bike. I ride mostly in a residential
:: area with some business and his wreck caused me to give a lot more
:: clearance to parked cars. I can see how in a place like Brooklyn, a
:: rider might have difficulty doing that.

I remember something like this too. I also, when riding near a line of cars,
get very cautious about someone fling open a door. It's just too likely a
thing to have happen, even in less busy places such as the rural south.

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it can't. I saw
a rider hit the door of an old VW and break it off. Both bicyclist
and door ended lying in the street.

Jobst Brandt

[Neil Brooks]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:26:48 -0500, catzz66
<catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:

>dgk wrote:

>There was a "Neil" on this NG who ran into an open door a year or so ago
>and trashed his pretty new bike.

ISTR that the driver of the pickup truck--who was gathering up
paperwork AND talking on the cell phone--didn't bother to check his
mirrors before FLINGING the door open. So ... not an already open
door.

ISTR that this pickup truck also had a deeply tinted windows,
rendering it impossible to see a driver, or his/her actions, through
either the back window or the side mirror (reflecting into the
driver's seat area).

(Yes, I'm that Neil) I was probably within inches--literally
inches--of being TOTALLY OUT of the door zone. The door actually
clipped my shoulder, just at my clavicle (broken only a year before in
a nasty MTB endo).

The fact that I couldn't SEE the interior of the car should have
forced me even further way from the DZ, but ... again ... I thought I
was clear. This was also a part of San Diego that, sadly, doesn't get
a lot of cyclists. The motorists there were a bit less kind to
cyclists than elsewhere [1]

It's a bit of a dicey thing to understand exactly what the true DZ is,
in some cases. Two door cars tend to have longer doors than four door
cars, for example.

I'm well clear of the DZ now.

Believe me!

[1] The insurance company--along with purchasing a new bike--gave me
$1,000 for "pain and suffering." I donated it to the local advocacy
group who held classes for bicyclists IN that area--hopefully
generating more awareness for all....

[Zoot Katz]

On 29 Jun 2007 17:42:15 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it can't. I saw
>a rider hit the door of an old VW and break it off. Both bicyclist
>and door ended lying in the street.
>
>Jobst Brandt

Mike Latondresse had the best dooring story I've heard.

With just enough time to decide in which direction to launch himself,
he landed on the car's hood pretty much unhurt.

The driver was taken away in ambulance with fractured cheek and jaw
bones where Mike's helmet had hit him.
--
zk

[gds]

On Jun 29, 10:48 am, Neil Brooks <neil0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:13:21 -0700, gds <gary_j...@msn.com> wrote:
> > Most folks will check their side view
> >mirror and then open.
>
> Boy, how I wish that had been my experience.
>
> I see heads looking down at the passenger seat, with hands on the door
> handle ... opening without looking ... all ... the ... time.

Actually my experience with "dooring" is that folks exiting taxi cabs
are the worst as they don't have a mirror and are ususally funbling
with change, etc. Lots of taxis have signs for exiting on curb side
only but... .

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Neil Brooks <neil0502@yahoo.com> writes:

>> Most folks will check their side view mirror and then open.

> Boy, how I wish that had been my experience.

> I see heads looking down at the passenger seat, with hands on the door
> handle ... opening without looking ... all ... the ... time.

Another hazard I encounter on our main street is riding past stalled
traffic with parallel parked cars on one side and intermittently
moving cars on the left. Sometimes passengers decide to "jump out" to
a store while the driver finds a place to park the car. To avoid this
hazard, I prefer to ride between these cars and oncoming traffic down
the center stripe.

Jobst Brandt

[catzz66]

Neil Brooks wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:26:48 -0500, catzz66
> <catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:
>
>
>>dgk wrote:
>
>
>>There was a "Neil" on this NG who ran into an open door a year or so ago
>>and trashed his pretty new bike.
>
>
> ISTR that the driver of the pickup truck--who was gathering up
> paperwork AND talking on the cell phone--didn't bother to check his
> mirrors before FLINGING the door open. So ... not an already open
> door.
>

All I meant was that the door was open when you hit it. Glad you
survived the wreck and are back in the saddle again.

[Neil Brooks]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:09:38 -0700, Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com>
wrote:

>On 29 Jun 2007 17:42:15 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>>Just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it can't. I saw
>>a rider hit the door of an old VW and break it off. Both bicyclist
>>and door ended lying in the street.
>>
>>Jobst Brandt
>
>Mike Latondresse had the best dooring story I've heard.
>
>With just enough time to decide in which direction to launch himself,
>he landed on the car's hood pretty much unhurt.
>
>The driver was taken away in ambulance with fractured cheek and jaw
>bones where Mike's helmet had hit him.

Beautiful.

I was mildly gratified to know that I had inflicted "moderate to
severe" damage to the door of the pickup truck ... with my trusty
clavicle.

[David L. Johnson]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Another hazard I encounter on our main street is riding past stalled
> traffic with parallel parked cars on one side and intermittently
> moving cars on the left. Sometimes passengers decide to "jump out" to
> a store while the driver finds a place to park the car. To avoid this
> hazard, I prefer to ride between these cars and oncoming traffic down
> the center stripe.

I learned that lessen as well, years ago. Only time I have been
seriously doored, and it was a passenger suddenly deciding to get out,
since they were stopped in traffic anyway. it was, really, my fault,
since there was no reasonable way she should have expected traffic
coming up between the parked cars and the line of stopped traffic ---
except for the fact that my buddy was 10 feet ahead of me and went by
that car just as she was opening the door.

Oh well. I don't always ride down the yellow line, though, since that
makes drivers nervous. When I do ride between stopped traffic and
parked cars, though, I go very slowly, and watch for movement.
Particularly watch the door itself, it's easier to see the door begin to
open than it is to see people inside the cars these days, between
headrests and tinted glass.

--

David L. Johnson

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig...
You soon find out the pig likes it!

[Neil Brooks]

On 29 Jun 2007 18:11:09 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Neil Brooks <neil0502@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>> Most folks will check their side view mirror and then open.
>
>> Boy, how I wish that had been my experience.
>
>> I see heads looking down at the passenger seat, with hands on the door
>> handle ... opening without looking ... all ... the ... time.
>
>Another hazard I encounter on our main street is riding past stalled
>traffic with parallel parked cars on one side and intermittently
>moving cars on the left. Sometimes passengers decide to "jump out" to
>a store while the driver finds a place to park the car.

So ... you could be doored from the LEFT SIDE, too?!?

Yikes!

>To avoid this
>hazard, I prefer to ride between these cars and oncoming traffic down
>the center stripe.
>
>Jobst Brandt

[dgk]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:11:20 -0500, catzz66
<catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:

>Neil Brooks wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:26:48 -0500, catzz66
>> <catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>dgk wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There was a "Neil" on this NG who ran into an open door a year or so ago
>>>and trashed his pretty new bike.
>>
>>
>> ISTR that the driver of the pickup truck--who was gathering up
>> paperwork AND talking on the cell phone--didn't bother to check his
>> mirrors before FLINGING the door open. So ... not an already open
>> door.
>>
>
>All I meant was that the door was open when you hit it. Glad you
>survived the wreck and are back in the saddle again.

By definition the door is always open when you hit it. The question is
when it was opened.

[Paul Myron Hobson]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> When I do ride between stopped traffic and
> parked cars, though, I go very slowly, and watch for movement.
> Particularly watch the door itself, it's easier to see the door begin to
> open than it is to see people inside the cars these days, between
> headrests and tinted glass.


There's a really dangerous spot by my house. The bike lane goes around
a sharp right bend with parking between it and the sidewalk, with
several tightly packed shops right there. Needless to say, I don't
bother with the lane there.

Point is, yesterday I was still looking at the cars trying to hone my
'early warning dooring alarm.' Thanks to the tinted windows of the
SUVs, I didn't even see that the cars of the doors that were opened were
even occupied! yikes...

\\paul

[dgk]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:22:55 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
<david.johnson@lehigh.edu> wrote:

>Roger Zoul wrote:
>
>> Yes, this person likely - without a lot of thought - opened her door into
>> the the path of an on-coming cyclist and in doing so caused his death. I
>> must admit that I ALWAYS check for on-coming cars before I flop my door
>> open. But I ride bikes for fun. I'm also just cautious like that, since I
>> don't my door to be ripped off by some car coming.
>
>The last dooring I witnessed was car-or-car. Woman pulled up to a curb
>in a parking lot (a no-parking zone, of course), flung her door open,
>and had it ripped off by another car. I really felt for the poor kid
>driving the other car. She was very upset, had never had anything like
>this happen before, and of course the ***** who opened her door without
>looking was blaming this kid. The cops straightened her out -- but it
>seems to matter more when it's another car involved, rather than some
>kid on a bike.
>>
>> However, if a cyclist is on coming from the right angle, a check of the
>> rear-view mirror might result in the cyclist being in a "blind spot".
>
>This story seems like it might have been a left-rear passenger. It
>pointedly did not say the woman was the driver of that car. She would
>not have had a mirror to look through, and so had every reason to turn
>her head and look.
>
>> Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really just an
>> unfortunately accident....
>
>Of course is was an accident. No one is suggesting that the woman did
>this intentionally.

That does not mean that she should not face charges.

[Neil Brooks]

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:11:41 -0400, dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:

>I believe that it is illegal in NYC to open a door in a way that
>creates a hazard. It is the job of the person opening the door (not
>only driver) to make sure that it is safe.

California's pretty clear about that one, too:

22517. No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side
available to moving traffic unless it is reasonably safe to do so and
can be done without interfering with the movement of such traffic, nor
shall any person leave a door open upon the side of a vehicle
available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary
to load or unload passengers.

[Roger Zoul]

dgk wrote:
:: On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:08:33 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
::
::: David L. Johnson wrote:
::::: hl@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
:::::: David L. Johnson wrote:
:::::
:::::: He was doored. According to New York Post:
:::::
::::: As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was
::::: made of who committed the act which killed this kid. That person
::::: should at least have gotten a summons. It really makes you
::::: wonder, is it just that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his
::::: own fault --- the guy was stupid enough to ride on our roads,
::::: what did he expect? --- or is the person who killed him being
::::: protected?
:::
::: Now that we seem to know more about what happened (not that it was
::: hard to make a good guess), I still find the issue of placing blame
::: to be difficult.
:::
::: Yes, this person likely - without a lot of thought - opened her
::: door into the the path of an on-coming cyclist and in doing so
::: caused his death. I must admit that I ALWAYS check for on-coming
::: cars before I flop my door open. But I ride bikes for fun. I'm
::: also just cautious like that, since I don't my door to be ripped
::: off by some car coming.
:::
::: However, if a cyclist is on coming from the right angle, a check of
::: the rear-view mirror might result in the cyclist being in a "blind
::: spot". Hence, if the driver only checked the rear view, she might
::: not have seen the cyclist. And since cyclists don't typically make
::: a lot of noise....
:::
::: Since the car wasn't moving, I'm not so sure if this wasn't really
::: just an unfortunately accident....
:::
::
:: I believe that it is illegal in NYC to open a door in a way that
:: creates a hazard. It is the job of the person opening the door (not
:: only driver) to make sure that it is safe.

Sure...but if the kid is moving quickly from some place one isn't
expecting...ie, across from the left rather than just moving up from
behind...

[rdclark]

On Jul 2, 12:41 pm, Paul Turner <ptur...@mcandl.com> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 9:17 am, Paul Myron Hobson <phob...@gatech.edu> wrote:
>
> > Wasn't a young woman killed in a *very* similar matter about a year,
> > year and a half ago? I could swear I remember a woman on a fixie being
> > doored and then flung into traffic.
>
> There was an incident in Cambridge, Massachusetts, about two years
> ago, if I remember correctly. A woman was killed by a bus after being
> doored while riding through Harvard Square. The facts sound similar to
> those in this case. The bus driver in the Cambridge incident was
> exonerated; I don't remember hearing what happened to the parked
> driver.

It was four years ago; particularly memorable and tragically ironic
because she was doored while riding in a painted bike lane. See
http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/doorzone/pressrls.htm

r

[dgk]

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:24 -0700, Bob <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:

>On Jun 29, 8:57 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu>
>wrote:
>> h...@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
>> > David L. Johnson wrote:
>> > He was doored. According to New York Post:
>>
>> As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was made of
>> who committed the act which killed this kid. That person should at
>> least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder, is it just
>> that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault --- the guy was
>> stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he expect? --- or is the
>> person who killed him being protected?
>>
>> --
>>
>> David L. Johnson
>>
>> The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.
>
>Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
>"killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly blame the
>bus driver can we? Not every act that ultimately results an accidental
>death should be prosecuted as a criminal act. IMO issuing the woman in
>this case a traffic ticket for improper opening of a car door seems
>almost insulting to the surviving family.
>
>Regards,
>Bob Hunt

You're right and you're wrong. Yes, the bus actually killed the kid
and was probably unavoidable. The woman's actions and lack of
consideration for anyone else threw the kid into the path of the bus.

The penalty for causing a situation resulting in death should be far
more than a ticket. She wasn't out to kill the kid but she did. Big
fines and an educational blitz would help all of us who face the
dooring problem.

[John Kane]

On Jul 3, 2:12 am, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jun 29, 8:57 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > h...@helsinki.fi.invalid wrote:
> > > David L. Johnson wrote:
> > > He was doored. According to New York Post:
>
> > As some of us expected. It is still curious that no mention was made of
> > who committed the act which killed this kid. That person should at
> > least have gotten a summons. It really makes you wonder, is it just
> > that a cyclist's death is always viewed as his own fault --- the guy was
> > stupid enough to ride on our roads, what did he expect? --- or is the
> > person who killed him being protected?
>
> > --
>
> > David L. Johnson
>
> > The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.
>
> Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
> "killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly blame the
> bus driver can we?

Of course if you are pushed off a cliff it was not the person who
pushed you but the stupid ground you hit..

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

..Not every act that ultimately results an accidental
> death should be prosecuted as a criminal act. IMO issuing the woman in
> this case a traffic ticket for improper opening of a car door seems
> almost insulting to the surviving family.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt

[Bob]

On Jul 3, 7:18 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:24 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
> >"killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly blame the
> >bus driver can we? Not every act that ultimately results an accidental
> >death should be prosecuted as a criminal act. IMO issuing the woman in
> >this case a traffic ticket for improper opening of a car door seems
> >almost insulting to the surviving family.
>
> >Regards,
> >Bob Hunt
>
> You're right and you're wrong. Yes, the bus actually killed the kid
> and was probably unavoidable. The woman's actions and lack of
> consideration for anyone else threw the kid into the path of the bus.
>
> The penalty for causing a situation resulting in death should be far
> more than a ticket. She wasn't out to kill the kid but she did. Big
> fines and an educational blitz would help all of us who face the
> dooring problem.

ISTM that you've decided that the woman's action in opening the door
can only be explained as a lack of consideration for anyone else while
I think it was more likely a simple mistake with tragic consequences.
Cases like this belong in civil court, not criminal court. By all
means, educate drivers to be more aware of cyclists but criminalizing
human error will never eliminate it.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[dgk]

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:14:02 -0700, Bob <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:

>On Jul 3, 7:18 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:24 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
>> >"killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly blame the
>> >bus driver can we? Not every act that ultimately results an accidental
>> >death should be prosecuted as a criminal act. IMO issuing the woman in
>> >this case a traffic ticket for improper opening of a car door seems
>> >almost insulting to the surviving family.
>>
>> >Regards,
>> >Bob Hunt
>>
>> You're right and you're wrong. Yes, the bus actually killed the kid
>> and was probably unavoidable. The woman's actions and lack of
>> consideration for anyone else threw the kid into the path of the bus.
>>
>> The penalty for causing a situation resulting in death should be far
>> more than a ticket. She wasn't out to kill the kid but she did. Big
>> fines and an educational blitz would help all of us who face the
>> dooring problem.
>
>ISTM that you've decided that the woman's action in opening the door
>can only be explained as a lack of consideration for anyone else while
>I think it was more likely a simple mistake with tragic consequences.
>Cases like this belong in civil court, not criminal court. By all
>means, educate drivers to be more aware of cyclists but criminalizing
>human error will never eliminate it.
>
>Regards,
>Bob Hunt

But simple mistakes have consequences, and sometimes should be used as
object lessons. Having a drink and driving results in dead people, but
it wasn't intentional. Yet that is dealt with severely. Cyclists are
hurt all the time by dooring and it still isn't taken seriously. There
are no PSAs, no reminders in your license renewal envelope, and no
mention even in the article about this boy's death. It made it seem
like it was his fault.

The whole dooring thing is taken as a joke, yet it is the most likely
thing to cause me injury or even death.

[Bob]

On Jul 5, 6:59 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:14:02 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 3, 7:18 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:24 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
> >> >"killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly blame the
> >> >bus driver can we? Not every act that ultimately results an accidental
> >> >death should be prosecuted as a criminal act. IMO issuing the woman in
> >> >this case a traffic ticket for improper opening of a car door seems
> >> >almost insulting to the surviving family.
>
> >> >Regards,
> >> >Bob Hunt
>
> >> You're right and you're wrong. Yes, the bus actually killed the kid
> >> and was probably unavoidable. The woman's actions and lack of
> >> consideration for anyone else threw the kid into the path of the bus.
>
> >> The penalty for causing a situation resulting in death should be far
> >> more than a ticket. She wasn't out to kill the kid but she did. Big
> >> fines and an educational blitz would help all of us who face the
> >> dooring problem.
>
> >ISTM that you've decided that the woman's action in opening the door
> >can only be explained as a lack of consideration for anyone else while
> >I think it was more likely a simple mistake with tragic consequences.
> >Cases like this belong in civil court, not criminal court. By all
> >means, educate drivers to be more aware of cyclists but criminalizing
> >human error will never eliminate it.
>
> >Regards,
> >Bob Hunt
>
> But simple mistakes have consequences, and sometimes should be used as
> object lessons. Having a drink and driving results in dead people, but
> it wasn't intentional. Yet that is dealt with severely. Cyclists are
> hurt all the time by dooring and it still isn't taken seriously. There
> are no PSAs, no reminders in your license renewal envelope, and no
> mention even in the article about this boy's death. It made it seem
> like it was his fault.
>
> The whole dooring thing is taken as a joke, yet it is the most likely
> thing to cause me injury or even death.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Drunk driving is the result not of one simple mistake but of a series
of bad decisions/poor choices that usually take place over several
hours. It take a lot more time to get inebriated than it does to open
a car door, doesn't it?
I don't know anyone that thinks dooring is a joke but if you'll simply
stay out of the door zone then dooring will become one of the *least*
likely things to cause you injury or death.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[neil0502@yahoo.com]

On Jul 5, 8:51 pm, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:

> Drunk driving is the result not of one simple mistake but of a series
> of bad decisions/poor choices that usually take place over several
> hours. It take a lot more time to get inebriated than it does to open
> a car door, doesn't it?
> I don't know anyone that thinks dooring is a joke but if you'll simply
> stay out of the door zone then dooring will become one of the *least*
> likely things to cause you injury or death.

While I agree in principle, it's only in the same principle that I use
when I say the following:

"Losing weight is easy. Just eat well and burn off more than you take
in."

In other words, while I learned a valuable (and painful) lesson about
the /exact/ width of the door zone, staying out of it absolutely
doesn't guarantee safe passage.

I have more than lost count of the number of "Get out of the road, a$
$****" I've received while staying just far enough out of the door
zone to prevent /getting/ doored.

These shouts are /quite often/ coupled with lengthy blasts of the
horn, and HAVE been coupled with thrown apples, beverage cups, and
empty soda/beer cans. These things happen when there are 2+ traffic
lanes in each direction (meaning they have ANOTHER lane that they can
use to pass), but no "bike lane," per se.

I stay where I need to be based on a firm /belief/ that these pri**s
are still less likely to /actually hit me/ than a flung-open door by
an inattentive motorist.

But the price for being wrong would be awfully high ... and I'm really
not so sure that I'm right after all.

[Roger Zoul]

Bob wrote:
:: On Jul 5, 6:59 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
::: On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:14:02 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
:::: On Jul 3, 7:18 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
::::: On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:24 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
:::
:::::: Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
:::::: "killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly
:::::: blame the bus driver can we? Not every act that ultimately
:::::: results an accidental death should be prosecuted as a criminal
:::::: act. IMO issuing the woman in this case a traffic ticket for
:::::: improper opening of a car door seems almost insulting to the
:::::: surviving family.
:::
:::::: Regards,
:::::: Bob Hunt
:::
::::: You're right and you're wrong. Yes, the bus actually killed the
::::: kid and was probably unavoidable. The woman's actions and lack of
::::: consideration for anyone else threw the kid into the path of the
::::: bus.
:::
::::: The penalty for causing a situation resulting in death should be
::::: far more than a ticket. She wasn't out to kill the kid but she
::::: did. Big fines and an educational blitz would help all of us who
::::: face the dooring problem.
:::
:::: ISTM that you've decided that the woman's action in opening the
:::: door can only be explained as a lack of consideration for anyone
:::: else while I think it was more likely a simple mistake with tragic
:::: consequences. Cases like this belong in civil court, not criminal
:::: court. By all means, educate drivers to be more aware of cyclists
:::: but criminalizing human error will never eliminate it.
:::
:::: Regards,
:::: Bob Hunt
:::
::: But simple mistakes have consequences, and sometimes should be used
::: as object lessons. Having a drink and driving results in dead
::: people, but it wasn't intentional. Yet that is dealt with severely.
::: Cyclists are hurt all the time by dooring and it still isn't taken
::: seriously. There are no PSAs, no reminders in your license renewal
::: envelope, and no mention even in the article about this boy's
::: death. It made it seem like it was his fault.
:::
::: The whole dooring thing is taken as a joke, yet it is the most
::: likely thing to cause me injury or even death.- Hide quoted text -
:::
::: - Show quoted text -
::
:: Drunk driving is the result not of one simple mistake but of a series
:: of bad decisions/poor choices that usually take place over several
:: hours. It take a lot more time to get inebriated than it does to open
:: a car door, doesn't it?

Not enough to make a significant difference, actually. I can get drunk
inside 30 minutes since I don't drink often. And decisions made while drunk
are expected to poor while those made when sober (ie, opening a door without
looking) should not be.

:: I don't know anyone that thinks dooring is a joke but if you'll
:: simply stay out of the door zone then dooring will become one of the
:: *least* likely things to cause you injury or death.

I think your notion of always being out of the door zone is very
unrealistic. Sometimes you're just gonna have to be there because you have
to share the road with others.

[Bob]

On Jul 6, 8:07 am, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bob wrote:
>
> :: On Jul 5, 6:59 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> ::: On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:14:02 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
> :::: On Jul 3, 7:18 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> ::::: On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:24 -0700, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
> :::
> :::::: Not to defend the woman that opened the door but that wasn't what
> :::::: "killed the kid". The school bus did that yet we can hardly
> :::::: blame the bus driver can we? Not every act that ultimately
> :::::: results an accidental death should be prosecuted as a criminal
> :::::: act. IMO issuing the woman in this case a traffic ticket for
> :::::: improper opening of a car door seems almost insulting to the
> :::::: surviving family.
> :::
> :::::: Regards,
> :::::: Bob Hunt
> :::
> ::::: You're right and you're wrong. Yes, the bus actually killed the
> ::::: kid and was probably unavoidable. The woman's actions and lack of
> ::::: consideration for anyone else threw the kid into the path of the
> ::::: bus.
> :::
> ::::: The penalty for causing a situation resulting in death should be
> ::::: far more than a ticket. She wasn't out to kill the kid but she
> ::::: did. Big fines and an educational blitz would help all of us who
> ::::: face the dooring problem.
> :::
> :::: ISTM that you've decided that the woman's action in opening the
> :::: door can only be explained as a lack of consideration for anyone
> :::: else while I think it was more likely a simple mistake with tragic
> :::: consequences. Cases like this belong in civil court, not criminal
> :::: court. By all means, educate drivers to be more aware of cyclists
> :::: but criminalizing human error will never eliminate it.
> :::
> :::: Regards,
> :::: Bob Hunt
> :::
> ::: But simple mistakes have consequences, and sometimes should be used
> ::: as object lessons. Having a drink and driving results in dead
> ::: people, but it wasn't intentional. Yet that is dealt with severely.
> ::: Cyclists are hurt all the time by dooring and it still isn't taken
> ::: seriously. There are no PSAs, no reminders in your license renewal
> ::: envelope, and no mention even in the article about this boy's
> ::: death. It made it seem like it was his fault.
> :::
> ::: The whole dooring thing is taken as a joke, yet it is the most
> ::: likely thing to cause me injury or even death.- Hide quoted text -
> :::
> ::: - Show quoted text -
> ::
> :: Drunk driving is the result not of one simple mistake but of a series
> :: of bad decisions/poor choices that usually take place over several
> :: hours. It take a lot more time to get inebriated than it does to open
> :: a car door, doesn't it?
>
> Not enough to make a significant difference, actually. I can get drunk
> inside 30 minutes since I don't drink often. And decisions made while drunk
> are expected to poor while those made when sober (ie, opening a door without
> looking) should not be.
>
> :: I don't know anyone that thinks dooring is a joke but if you'll
> :: simply stay out of the door zone then dooring will become one of the
> :: *least* likely things to cause you injury or death.
>
> I think your notion of always being out of the door zone is very
> unrealistic. Sometimes you're just gonna have to be there because you have
> to share the road with others.

I won't argue with you about the difference in time between getting
drunk and climbing behind the steering wheel and the opening a car
door because your position is simply ludicrous. Unless of course it
takes you 30 minutes to open a car door in which case you shouldn't be
operating *any* vehicle on the road.
You think it is unrealistic to stay out of the door zone yet lots of
us manage to do it everyday. I think it's unrealistic to be in the
door zone and not expect it to be risky, more risky than say taking a
lane to avoid it. Sharing the road does not mean putting oneself in an
unacceptably risky situation just to avoid inconveniencing other road
users.

Regards,
Bob Hunt