PDA

View Full Version : 650B MTB update -


bfd
12-31-1969, 08:00 PM
Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!

http://www.bicyclenewswire.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showrelease&cid=132&id=547

Pacenti Cycle Design Leading the 650B Wheel Revolution
07.25.07
Chattanooga, Tennessee


Bike designer Kirk Pacenti is into big wheels. He was riding 700C and 700D
wheels in the early 1990s, has been a long-time proponent of 29ers, and
probably even rode one of those plastic "Big Wheel" tricycles as a kid. But
now he has seen the MTB future and the wheel size is 650B.

The advantages?




a.. With 650B wheels (which measure 27.5" in diameter, half-way between
26" and 29" wheels), full-suspension bikes can be produced with 4" to 6"
inches of travel and throughout a wide range of frame sizes without
abandoning proven 26" wheel frame geometry.


b.. 650B wheel bikes can be designed for a wide variety of uses from XC
racing to 4X and DH racing.


c.. 650B wheel bikes can accommodate riders 5' 3" to 6' 4" tall or more.


d.. 650B wheels offer great obstacle roll-over capabilities for a smoother
ride.


e.. Consumers are already demanding 650B bikes and bike designers are
producing the bikes.



"What I believe 650B wheeled mountain bikes will allow builders to do, is to
utilize proven 26 inch wheeled geometries, coupled with the largest wheel
possible in a bike with little or no geometry compromises," says Pacenti,
president of Pacenti Cycle Design, which supplies product and support to
frame builders. "As 140mm travel bikes become the norm (even for XC bikes)
the 650B wheel size is going to make even more sense."

Granted, the biggest obstacle to any new wheel size is tires, but Pacenti
has already covered that rocky ground. A Pacenti-designed and branded
Panaracer-made 650B tire - the Neo-Moto - is currently in production and
will be available by mid-September. In addition, White Brothers is producing
suspension forks for the new wheel size, and Velocity USA, which has built
650B rims for the bicycle touring market for years, is already in production
of their new "Blunt" all-mountain MTB rim.

Because the 650B wheel size is compatible with many 26" wheel components
numerous parts are already available. For instance, Maverick forks can be
easily optimized for 650B wheels with a travel reduction kit, and some
current 26" and all current 29" disk specific suspension forks will work
with the 650B wheel size.

But what's a wheel and parts without a frame. Numerous independent bike
designers are fully embracing the new 650B wheel size and producing 650B
frames. The current list of frame builders includes:




a.. Ahrens Cycles
b.. Carver Bikes
c.. El Camino Fabrication
d.. Engin Cycles
e.. Independent Fabrication
f.. Kent Eriksen
g.. Origin 8
h.. Pacenti Cycles
i.. Rawland Cycles
j.. Rivendell
k.. Rock Lobster Cycles
l.. Siren Cycles
m.. Soma
n.. Tomac Mountain Bikes
o.. Turner Suspension Bikes
p.. Vicious Cycles
q.. Walt Works
r.. Willits Brand
s.. ZR Cycles



Noel Buckley of Knolly Bikes, who understands the impact wheel size has on
full-suspension frame design, says: "Kirk's forward thinking vision is
correct in that 29'er wheels don't work well for frames with more than 100mm
of rear travel. While working on the design of a 29er version of our new
Endorphin frame, we started realizing that serious compromises would need to
be made to the frame geometry due to undesirable forward wheel paths, chain
stay lengths, and BB height all caused by the large 29" wheel diameter.

"Kirk knows what he's talking about. The 650B wheel size makes more sense
for a company looking to produce big wheeled bikes in the 100 - 150mm travel
category because they get the rolling benefits of the larger tire, but don't
have to modify frame geometries much, or have to contend with the design
compromises imposed by 29 inch wheels."

As many as a dozen manufacturers will have 650B parts and components ready
for this year's Interbike trade show and distribution of the new Pacenti
650B tires will be handled by a number of well-known distributors. (A list
of distributors will be available soon.)

"I am fully committed to the 650B wheel mountain bike," says Pacenti. "I
have been receiving daily inquiries from custom builders and even consumers
who are very interested in the wheel size. Support for this project has been
overwhelming. I truly believe 650B wheel bikes have a bright future in
mountain biking."

About Pacenti Cycle Design
Kirk Pacenti founded Pacenti Cycle Design for the sole purpose of supplying
and offering support to the artisans who build quality hand-crafted bicycle
frames. He provides particular dedication to lugged steel construction but
is expanding his product offerings to include all materials and construction
techniques including the new 650B wheel bike. For more information call
(423) 954-3373 or log onto the Internet at www.bikelugs.com.



Interestingly, the article fails to mention that Carbon frame builder Don
Parlee also builds 650B carbon bikes (for Cycle Tournesol). 650B (584mm)
wheels may not have been successful in the touring/country bike catagory,
but the new "27.5" MTB standard looks prime. Are you ready?

Luigi de Guzman
01-03-1970, 08:37 AM
Posting binary images to a non-binary NG is not cool, nor has it ever
been cool on USENET. Please post URLs next time.



--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

Tim McNamara
01-03-1970, 08:37 AM
In article <NLidnVIB9JP5VDXbnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote:

> Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!

I'll agree when Trek or Cannondale are selling 650B mountain bikes.
Otherwise it's just a list of small boutique makers, often just one
person, for whom adding a 650B wheel size is little to no trouble. As
for the Panaracer tire, they'll make any tire you want as long as you're
willing to meet the minimum purchase.

DougC
01-03-1970, 08:37 AM
bfd wrote:
> Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!
> ....
> Bike designer Kirk Pacenti is into big wheels. He was riding 700C and 700D
> wheels in the early 1990s, has been a long-time proponent of 29ers, and
> probably even rode one of those plastic "Big Wheel" tricycles as a kid. But
> now he has seen the MTB future and the wheel size is 650B.
>
> The advantages?
>

About the only advantage a 650B MTB has is that bike companies can sell
something "new" to all the people who already own 559mm bikes.

I note that most of those "interested builders" are small custom shops
who can't build commodity bikes to compete with the likes of
Specialized. Chasing the big companies is a dead-end for them, because
they can't ever do it as /much/ as a big company can, and they can't
ever do it as /cheap/ either.
~

bfd
01-03-1970, 08:38 AM
"Luigi de Guzman" <luigi12081@cox.net> wrote in message
news:eX4qi.12052$rH6.263@newsfe22.lga...
> Posting binary images to a non-binary NG is not cool, nor has it ever
> been cool on USENET. Please post URLs next time.
>
Sorry about that. I just cut and paste without realizing it contained the
images.

Dane Buson
01-03-1970, 08:38 AM
Luigi de Guzman <luigi12081@cox.net> wrote:
> Posting binary images to a non-binary NG is not cool, nor has it ever
> been cool on USENET. Please post URLs next time.

Not to mention that those of us on more clueful newsservers will never
even see your post. I see the ref to a previous message in your
headers, but that post isn't in my newsspool.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"Americans are broad-minded people. They'll accept the fact that a
person can be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a
newspaperman, but if a man doesn't drive there's something wrong with him."
Art Buchwald

bfd
01-03-1970, 08:38 AM
"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-1CE6B8.12384026072007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <NLidnVIB9JP5VDXbnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!
>
> I'll agree when Trek or Cannondale are selling 650B mountain bikes.
> Otherwise it's just a list of small boutique makers, often just one
> person, for whom adding a 650B wheel size is little to no trouble. As
> for the Panaracer tire, they'll make any tire you want as long as you're
> willing to meet the minimum purchase.

Therein lies the problem. Large mfrs will look at adding yet another size as
a burden. One major problem - LBS dealers. LBSs have a hard enough time
selling a bike. Trying to explain 650B to customers may be difficult. On the
other hand, if you just let customers ride the bike, they may like it enough
to not realize its a different size.

650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

Chalo
01-03-1970, 08:38 AM
bfd wrote:
>
> 650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
> into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
> between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

I don't understand the desire for an intermediate size. Between fat
559 tires and smallish 622 MTB tires, there isn't really that much
diameter difference anyway. Riders who are categorically too short
for 29" would be better served by 26" wheels rather than something in
between.

I reckon that any amount of industrial support garnered by a 27.5"
wheel size will just be that much market proliferation and support
subtracted from the 29" size. And then the 27.5" size will die
quietly by suffocation.

Chalo

G.T.
01-03-1970, 08:38 AM
"bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:E8GdnZMEfeb0QzXbnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>
> 650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
> into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
> between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?
>

Why is a compromise needed? Slaves to fashion or 'cross guys ride 700c, the
rest of us ride 26" off-road.

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

russellseaton1@yahoo.com
01-03-1970, 08:38 AM
On Jul 26, 12:48 pm, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:

> 650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
> into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
> between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

Solution, maybe, for converting older road racing bikes into wider,
softer, smaller tire bikes maybe more useful for non paved road
riding.

"*compromise* needed"? Needed? Last I looked 26" and 700C (29er if
you did not know) tires were available from less than 1 inch to about
2.5 inches widths in everything from slick to knobby on almost all
widths. If you can't find the width, and therefore diameter, and
tread you want for a 26" or 700C bike, then you are too lazy in your
looking.

Tim McNamara
01-03-1970, 08:38 AM
In article <E8GdnZMEfeb0QzXbnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-1CE6B8.12384026072007@news.iphouse.com...
> > In article <NLidnVIB9JP5VDXbnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "bfd"
> > <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!
> >
> > I'll agree when Trek or Cannondale are selling 650B mountain bikes.
> > Otherwise it's just a list of small boutique makers, often just one
> > person, for whom adding a 650B wheel size is little to no trouble.
> > As for the Panaracer tire, they'll make any tire you want as long
> > as you're willing to meet the minimum purchase.
>
> Therein lies the problem. Large mfrs will look at adding yet another
> size as a burden.

And it is, given that they would have to create new tooling to make use
of that size. That expense, for a product with unknown market
acceptance, would tend to lead to a conservative approach to adoption of
650B.

> One major problem - LBS dealers. LBSs have a hard enough time selling
> a bike. Trying to explain 650B to customers may be difficult. On the
> other hand, if you just let customers ride the bike, they may like it
> enough to not realize its a different size.

I've ridden a few 650B bike, since my favorite LBS stocks that size, and
they are very nice bikes. They don't look or feel weird in any way, and
Joe Average customer might very well not even notice.

> 650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style
> bikes into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the
> *compromise* needed between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?

That I don't know. I've not ever ridden 650B off road. IME 700 x 25
work well for most trails around here and 700 x 28 works for the rest of
them. We ain't got much technical stuff hereabouts.

Ozark Bicycle
01-03-1970, 08:39 AM
On Jul 26, 1:46 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

<snipped>

- on 650B wheels and tires -

> I've ridden a few 650B bike, since my favorite LBS stocks that size, and
> they are very nice bikes. They don't look or feel weird in any way, and
> Joe Average customer might very well not even notice.

"Joe Average customer might very well not even notice." ? What then is
the point of inflicting this relatively hard to find, oddball tire
size on the public?????

G.T.
01-03-1970, 08:39 AM
"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-A0359A.13464526072007@news.iphouse.com...
>
> That I don't know. I've not ever ridden 650B off road. IME 700 x 25
> work well for most trails around here and 700 x 28 works for the rest of
> them. We ain't got much technical stuff hereabouts.

No ruts? I pinch flat my 700c x 28s on non-technical rutted trails all the
time.

Greg
--
Ticketbastard tax tracker:
http://ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Steve Gravrock
01-03-1970, 08:40 AM
On 2007-07-26, Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
> bfd wrote:
>>
>> 650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
>> into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
>> between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?
>
> I don't understand the desire for an intermediate size. Between fat
> 559 tires and smallish 622 MTB tires, there isn't really that much
> diameter difference anyway. Riders who are categorically too short
> for 29" would be better served by 26" wheels rather than something in
> between.

The fork problem makes it even harder to sell 650B mountain bikes to
such riders. Currently there are no 650B specific suspension forks
available, and that's not the sort of item that any framebuilder can
turn out. You could of course build a 650B bike around a 29er fork, but
then you're stuck with the exact same tall front end that makes it hard
to put short people on a 29er in the first place.

I suppose rigid forks are an option, but then the market is limited to
the pool of people who are dissatisfied with 26" wheels, too short to
ride 29", and willing to ride rigid. That's an awfully small group.

A Muzi
01-03-1970, 08:40 AM
> <snipped>
> - on 650B wheels and tires -

> Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> I've ridden a few 650B bike, since my favorite LBS stocks that size, and
>> they are very nice bikes. They don't look or feel weird in any way, and
>> Joe Average customer might very well not even notice.

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> "Joe Average customer might very well not even notice." ? What then is
> the point of inflicting this relatively hard to find, oddball tire
> size on the public?????

Remember GT 700D wheels? A spate of cheap 650B bikes in the mid-80s?
Riders had no idea until a tire was cut years later. . .

The point? I have no idea then or now.

Peugeot/Gitane/Urago/Bertin/Singer etc nice tourers and tandems with
650B made some sense as those were domestic French models primarily or
at least sold to the cognescenti with 650B as a somehwhat desirable
feature. $199 bikes with unsupported tire formats (steel rims, no
less!) were disconcerting to dealers and customers alike.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tim McNamara
01-03-1970, 08:40 AM
In article <13ai2roe9gp1ad2@corp.supernews.com>,
"G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-A0359A.13464526072007@news.iphouse.com...
> >
> > That I don't know. I've not ever ridden 650B off road. IME 700 x
> > 25 work well for most trails around here and 700 x 28 works for the
> > rest of them. We ain't got much technical stuff hereabouts.
>
> No ruts? I pinch flat my 700c x 28s on non-technical rutted trails
> all the time.

Not so much, I guess. A lot of that is probably due to most of our
trails- at least the ones longer than two miles- being mainly along the
Mississippi and Minnesota River bottoms. The soil tends to be sandy and
fairly soft. I don't ride off-road all that often any more; there are a
few trails with slightly more technical stuff but those tend to be
short- you've gotta do 10 laps to get in a ride of decent duration and
it's boring as hell.

Ozark Bicycle
01-03-1970, 08:46 AM
On Jul 27, 5:35 am, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> bfd wrote:
> > Kirk Pacenti must have alot of pull!
> > ....
> > Bike designer Kirk Pacenti is into big wheels. He was riding 700C and 700D
> > wheels in the early 1990s, has been a long-time proponent of 29ers, and
> > probably even rode one of those plastic "Big Wheel" tricycles as a kid. But
> > now he has seen the MTB future and the wheel size is 650B.
>
> > The advantages?
>
> About the only advantage a 650B MTB has is that bike companies can sell
> something "new" to all the people who already own 559mm bikes.


That "advantage" is not just limited to 650B MTBs, IMO. It pretty much
extends to any production line 650B bicycle sold for use primarily in
North America.


>
> I note that most of those "interested builders" are small custom shops
> who can't build commodity bikes to compete with the likes of
> Specialized. Chasing the big companies is a dead-end for them, because
> they can't ever do it as /much/ as a big company can, and they can't
> ever do it as /cheap/ either.


Bingo! It's "niche market" or else.

Ozark Bicycle
01-03-1970, 08:49 AM
On Jul 27, 10:35 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 12:48 pm, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > 650B is a solution for those trying to convert older "racing" style bikes
> > into more useful, versatile ones. So, can 650B be the *compromise* needed
> > between 26" and 29ers in the mtb world?
>
> Solution, maybe, for converting older road racing bikes into wider,
> softer, smaller tire bikes maybe more useful for non paved road
> riding.

Yes, and that represents a vanishingly small market in North America.
*Maybe* several thousand tires a year. Not enough to disinter the
moribund 650B size here in North America.

>
> "*compromise* needed"? Needed? Last I looked 26" and 700C (29er if
> you did not know) tires were available from less than 1 inch to about
> 2.5 inches widths in everything from slick to knobby on almost all
> widths. If you can't find the width, and therefore diameter, and
> tread you want for a 26" or 700C bike, then you are too lazy in your
> looking.

650B is a solution in search of a problem, unless you are a small,
Hobbit-sized bike maker looking to sell yet another bike or frame to
the faithful.