LeMond on Contador

[JC]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,22143376-23218,00.html

-------
LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be equal, you have
to implicate other riders, too.

"You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence and
relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away with it.
"Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and both are climbing as
fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right there," he said in a reference
to the late Italian Marco Pantani, a superb climber who won both the Tour de
France and Giro d'Italia in 1998.

"Contador has been involved in 'Operation Puerto'," he added, citing the
doping scandal that rocked Spain.

"I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."

LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it didn't
name a champion this year.

"I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
--------

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jul 26, 7:23 pm, "JC" <nob...@home.com> wrote:

<snip>

> LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it didn't
> name a champion this year.
>
> "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.




That jackass seriously needs to shut up.

After he wasn't able to win anymore, he'd like it better if no one
else could either.

So lame. I have nothing but contempt for him.

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

JC <nobody@home.com> wrote:
> http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,22143376-23218,00.html

> -------
> LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be equal, you have
> to implicate other riders, too.

> "You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence and
> relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away with it.
> "Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and both are climbing as
> fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right there," he said in a reference
> to the late Italian Marco Pantani, a superb climber who won both the Tour de
> France and Giro d'Italia in 1998.

> "Contador has been involved in 'Operation Puerto'," he added, citing the
> doping scandal that rocked Spain.

> "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
> fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."

> LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it didn't
> name a champion this year.

> "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
> --------

My respect for Lemond is the uttermost. If cycling really want's to
be a clean sport it needs to start taking the few people telling the
truth seriously, insted of dismissing their motives. Jachkse, Simioni
and Mazano's are the only heros.

We still have an all dirty podium:

Evans and Leipheimer are clients of Dr. Ferari, Contardor is deeply
involved with operation puerto and rumord to still have Manolo Saiz
as his personal adviser.

Rasmussen is out because of a case of extremely bad press handling.

Acording to CSC's pressagent, Brian Nygaard, Rabobanks pressagent
Jacob Bergman has done just about everything wrong. Nyggard said that
he would have called an pressconference before the tour when Michael
Rasmussen got his 2nd warnming from the UCI and told the press about
the warnings and the exclusion from the dansih national team.
After that there wouldn't have been a case. I'd guess a team like
Discovery would have handled it simmilar to what Nygaard's suggesting
and steared clear.

Nygaard says that he has even tried counceling Jacob Bergsma durring
the last two weeks but Bergman hasn't been open to suggestions.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

[Callistus Valerius]

> LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be equal, you
have
> to implicate other riders, too.
>
> "You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence and
> relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away with it.
> "Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and both are climbing as
> fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right there," he said in a
reference
> to the late Italian Marco Pantani, a superb climber who won both the Tour
de
> France and Giro d'Italia in 1998.
>
> "Contador has been involved in 'Operation Puerto'," he added, citing the
> doping scandal that rocked Spain.
>
> "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
> fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."
>
> LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it
didn't
> name a champion this year.
>
> "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
> --------
I would name Greg LeMond as the virtual champion of 2007 Tour.

[Michael Press]

In article
<ONcqi.12222$Od7.7213@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>
,
"Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be equal, you
> have
> > to implicate other riders, too.
> >
> > "You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence and
> > relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away with it.
> > "Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and both are climbing as
> > fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right there," he said in a
> reference
> > to the late Italian Marco Pantani, a superb climber who won both the Tour
> de
> > France and Giro d'Italia in 1998.
> >
> > "Contador has been involved in 'Operation Puerto'," he added, citing the
> > doping scandal that rocked Spain.
> >
> > "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
> > fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."
> >
> > LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it
> didn't
> > name a champion this year.
> >
> > "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
> > --------
> I would name Greg LeMond as the virtual champion of 2007 Tour.

He already is the last honest champion, God love him.

--
Michael Press

[christie133@gmail.com]

> > "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
> > fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."

"The fact that I am pointing my finger directly at Contador should in
no way be construed as me pointing fingers at Contador."

Lemond is the fingering champion, for sure.

[alex beascoechea]

<christie133@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185505553.545368.94850@i38g2000prf.googlegro ups.com...
>
>> > "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you
>> > point
>> > fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."
>
> "The fact that I am pointing my finger directly at Contador should in
> no way be construed as me pointing fingers at Contador."
>
> Lemond is the fingering champion, for sure.
>

For me is amusing because Greg Lemond was the first cyclist for which I had
developed the believe that he was doped (probably completely unfounded).
I could not understand that someone that could do so well in the TdF and
eventually win it, could be so pathetic in other races and major tours . In
particular I could not understand how he could be so bad in the Giro (how
could it happen unless he was doped) . A true champion could never
participate in the Giro just to train, I assumed.

But it was not only his miraculous transformations for the TdF, but also his
miraculous recovery from the accident. But now his seems to have been all
virtue and sanctity.

He was the first in the development of a type of cyclist that lead to
Indurain and Armstrong. He must have been one of the first with a
millionaire contract and the first to realize that the TdF would become the
only game in town. Unfortunately.

[Doug Taylor]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:24:20 -0700, Kurgan Gringioni
<kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote:

>That jackass seriously needs to shut up.
>
>After he wasn't able to win anymore, he'd like it better if no one
>else could either.
>
>So lame. I have nothing but contempt for him.

Dumbass - Your contempt is seriously directed at the wrong guy. I'm
thinking that Bjarne Riis' confession (of the obvious) pretty much
supports and justifies everything Lemond has been whining about for
more than 10 years. He was all by himself out on a limb, getting
slammed by all the rbr cycling whores, and now he's looking pretty
much vindicated AFAIC.

Bottom line: how can you slam a guy who DID win the TdF 3 times while
clean? Put yourself in his place. How would you react if domestiques
start dropping you and winning races - doped to the gills it turns
out?

You'd become a self righteous blowhard.

Come to think of it, in some cases, you'd become simply a BIGGER and
LOUDER version of a existing self righteous blowhard.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:12:37 +0200, Morten Reippuert
Knudsen<spam@reippuert.dk> wrote:

>Acording to CSC's pressagent, Brian Nygaard, Rabobanks pressagent
>Jacob Bergman has done just about everything wrong. Nyggard said that
>he would have called an pressconference before the tour when Michael
>Rasmussen got his 2nd warnming from the UCI and told the press about
>the warnings and the exclusion from the dansih national team.
>After that there wouldn't have been a case. I'd guess a team like
>Discovery would have handled it simmilar to what Nygaard's suggesting
>and steared clear.

Interesting info.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

[Bill C]

On Jul 27, 5:12 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
> JC <nob...@home.com> wrote:
> >http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,22143376-23218,00.html
> > -------
> > LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be equal, you have
> > to implicate other riders, too.
> > "You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence and
> > relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away with it.
> > "Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and both are climbing as
> > fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right there," he said in a reference
> > to the late Italian Marco Pantani, a superb climber who won both the Tour de
> > France and Giro d'Italia in 1998.
> > "Contador has been involved in 'Operation Puerto'," he added, citing the
> > doping scandal that rocked Spain.
> > "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
> > fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."
> > LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it didn't
> > name a champion this year.
> > "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
> > --------
>
> My respect for Lemond is the uttermost. If cycling really want's to
> be a clean sport it needs to start taking the few people telling the
> truth seriously, insted of dismissing their motives. Jachkse, Simioni
> and Mazano's are the only heros.
>
> We still have an all dirty podium:
>
> Evans and Leipheimer are clients of Dr. Ferari, Contardor is deeply
> involved with operation puerto and rumord to still have Manolo Saiz
> as his personal adviser.
>
> Rasmussen is out because of a case of extremely bad press handling.
>
> Acording to CSC's pressagent, Brian Nygaard, Rabobanks pressagent
> Jacob Bergman has done just about everything wrong. Nyggard said that
> he would have called an pressconference before the tour when Michael
> Rasmussen got his 2nd warnming from the UCI and told the press about
> the warnings and the exclusion from the dansih national team.
> After that there wouldn't have been a case. I'd guess a team like
> Discovery would have handled it simmilar to what Nygaard's suggesting
> and steared clear.
>
> Nygaard says that he has even tried counceling Jacob Bergsma durring
> the last two weeks but Bergman hasn't been open to suggestions.
>
> --
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>
> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
winners, and no races either.
That's a perfect solution.
Next witch to the stake please!
Bill C

[Shane Stanley]

In article <5hpon4-bb9.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<spam@reippuert.dk> wrote:

> Evans and Leipheimer are clients of Dr. Ferari

Who says Evans is?

--
Shane Stanley

[anton2468@aol.com]

On Jul 27, 8:38 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jul 27, 5:12 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > JC <nob...@home.com> wrote:
> > >http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,22143376-23218,00.html
> > > -------
> > > LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be equal, you have
> > > to implicate other riders, too.
> > > "You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence and
> > > relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away with it.
> > > "Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and both are climbing as
> > > fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right there," he said in a reference
> > > to the late Italian Marco Pantani, a superb climber who won both the Tour de
> > > France and Giro d'Italia in 1998.
> > > "Contador has been involved in 'Operation Puerto'," he added, citing the
> > > doping scandal that rocked Spain.
> > > "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
> > > fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."
> > > LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it didn't
> > > name a champion this year.
> > > "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
> > > --------
>
> > My respect for Lemond is the uttermost. If cycling really want's to
> > be a clean sport it needs to start taking the few people telling the
> > truth seriously, insted of dismissing their motives. Jachkse, Simioni
> > and Mazano's are the only heros.
>
> > We still have an all dirty podium:
>
> > Evans and Leipheimer are clients of Dr. Ferari, Contardor is deeply
> > involved with operation puerto and rumord to still have Manolo Saiz
> > as his personal adviser.
>
> > Rasmussen is out because of a case of extremely bad press handling.
>
> > Acording to CSC's pressagent, Brian Nygaard, Rabobanks pressagent
> > Jacob Bergman has done just about everything wrong. Nyggard said that
> > he would have called an pressconference before the tour when Michael
> > Rasmussen got his 2nd warnming from the UCI and told the press about
> > the warnings and the exclusion from the dansih national team.
> > After that there wouldn't have been a case. I'd guess a team like
> > Discovery would have handled it simmilar to what Nygaard's suggesting
> > and steared clear.
>
> > Nygaard says that he has even tried counceling Jacob Bergsma durring
> > the last two weeks but Bergman hasn't been open to suggestions.
>
> > --
> > Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>
> > Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> winners, and no races either.
> That's a perfect solution.
> Next witch to the stake please!
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bill

You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.

You can see smoke, feel the heat, smell the burning, see the damage,
but you just cant admit there is a fire in the house because the
flames arn't visible from the outside.

[Tom Kunich]

"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>
> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> winners, and no races either.
> That's a perfect solution.
> Next witch to the stake please!

I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro that
year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.

Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> winners, and no races either.
> That's a perfect solution.
> Next witch to the stake please!

What do you think about Evans and Leipheimer being clients of Dr.
Michele Ferrari?


--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Shane Stanley <sstanley@myriad-com.nospam.com.au> wrote:
> In article <5hpon4-bb9.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>,
> Morten Reippuert Knudsen<spam@reippuert.dk> wrote:

> > Evans and Leipheimer are clients of Dr. Ferari

> Who says Evans is?

Apperantly he says so himself:

<http://www.sport1.de/de/sport/artikel_1500377.html>

Secondly history implicates him beeing part of the Australian OL2000
generation, the Austtralians hired former DDR top cycling trainers.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

[Michael Press]

In article
<1185542500.572093.121590@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups. com>
,
anton2468@aol.com wrote:

> On Jul 27, 8:38 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> > winners, and no races either.
> > That's a perfect solution.
> > Next witch to the stake please!
>
> You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
> You can see smoke, feel the heat, smell the burning, see the damage,
> but you just cant admit there is a fire in the house because the
> flames arn't visible from the outside.

You are oblivious. You have no idea what he thinks,
what he has seen, and his what his values are. If you
read what people write, and attended to rbr when there
was not a doping scandal on you would know enough not
to write these scurrilous lines.

--
Michael Press

[RonSonic]

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:21:40 -0700, anton2468@aol.com wrote:

>On Jul 27, 8:38 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Jul 27, 5:12 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > JC <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>> > >http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,22143376-23218,00.html
>> > > -------
>> > > LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be equal, you have
>> > > to implicate other riders, too.
>> > > "You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence and
>> > > relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away with it.
>> > > "Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and both are climbing as
>> > > fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right there," he said in a reference
>> > > to the late Italian Marco Pantani, a superb climber who won both the Tour de
>> > > France and Giro d'Italia in 1998.
>> > > "Contador has been involved in 'Operation Puerto'," he added, citing the
>> > > doping scandal that rocked Spain.
>> > > "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if you point
>> > > fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders next to him."
>> > > LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served if it didn't
>> > > name a champion this year.
>> > > "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
>> > > --------
>>
>> > My respect for Lemond is the uttermost. If cycling really want's to
>> > be a clean sport it needs to start taking the few people telling the
>> > truth seriously, insted of dismissing their motives. Jachkse, Simioni
>> > and Mazano's are the only heros.
>>
>> > We still have an all dirty podium:
>>
>> > Evans and Leipheimer are clients of Dr. Ferari, Contardor is deeply
>> > involved with operation puerto and rumord to still have Manolo Saiz
>> > as his personal adviser.
>>
>> > Rasmussen is out because of a case of extremely bad press handling.
>>
>> > Acording to CSC's pressagent, Brian Nygaard, Rabobanks pressagent
>> > Jacob Bergman has done just about everything wrong. Nyggard said that
>> > he would have called an pressconference before the tour when Michael
>> > Rasmussen got his 2nd warnming from the UCI and told the press about
>> > the warnings and the exclusion from the dansih national team.
>> > After that there wouldn't have been a case. I'd guess a team like
>> > Discovery would have handled it simmilar to what Nygaard's suggesting
>> > and steared clear.
>>
>> > Nygaard says that he has even tried counceling Jacob Bergsma durring
>> > the last two weeks but Bergman hasn't been open to suggestions.
>>
>> > --
>> > Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>>
>> > Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
>> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
>> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
>> winners, and no races either.
>> That's a perfect solution.
>> Next witch to the stake please!
>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Bill
>
>You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
>You can see smoke, feel the heat, smell the burning, see the damage,
>but you just cant admit there is a fire in the house because the
>flames arn't visible from the outside.

You are so bereft of clue. This entire tantrum amounted to nothing more than
"they're faster than me, they must be dirty." That really is all he's got.

And you know what? Even if they are all doping, they can put down the needle,
but Greg is still going to be an ******* who has to live with himself 24 hours
of every hellish day.

BTW, does he drink heavily?

Ron

[Ewoud Dronkert]

anton2468@aol.com wrote:
> You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.

You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.

I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
passtime.


--
E. Dronkert

[Donald Munro]

anton2468 wrote:
> You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
> You can see smoke, feel the heat, smell the burning, see the damage,
> but you just cant admit there is a fire in the house because the
> flames arn't visible from the outside.

Good on you, lets see some more rightous indignation. You rightous
crusaders are doing wonders for the rbr July hit count. Keep it up, and
just to give you some ammunition I'll let you in on a secret. We all know
they dope and we don't really care, its not cheating if everybodies doing
it.

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 27, 6:32 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
wrote:
> anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> > You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
> You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
> a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
> We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
> and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.
>
> I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
> is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
> satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
> passtime.

Exacta-moon-dough

[Simon Brooke]

in message <6csja3577i0k2fmq1564qp1li3npkpfd5s@4ax.com>, Ewoud Dronkert
('firstname@lastname.net.invalid') wrote:

> I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
> is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
> satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
> passtime.

Exactly. I cycle because I enjoy cycling. I watch the Tour because I enjoy
seeing other people do something I do, but very considerably better than I
ever will. I admire great riders because they ride brilliantly. Whether or
not they dope - well, it would be better if they didn't, but I'm still an
Ivan Basso fan.

There are exactly two cyclists in the peloton today who it would upset me
to learn were doping: Jens Voigt, and Tom Boonen. I believe in their
integrity and I would feel really disillusioned if they were doping now.
I'm not even a Boonen fan. I wouldn't even be upset to learn that Jens had
doped five years ago...

For the other 300 odd pro-tour riders, I either don't care enough either
way, or I don't believe enough in their personal integrity to be upset.

David Millar, Thomas Voeckler, Magnus Backstedt, Alexander Vinokourov?
These are guys I love to watch, whom I'll cheer for any stage they race -
but it wouldn't shock me to learn that any of them were doping.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

[anton2468@aol.com]

On Jul 27, 9:32 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
wrote:
> anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> > You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
> You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
> a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
> We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
> and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.
>
> I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
> is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
> satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
> passtime.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

Ewoud

I raced against East Germans. It pissed me off. I coached crews
against drugs, It pissed me off. I ****ing hate cheating c+nts who
cannot just train hard, take pain and if they are not good enough then
lose.

Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
pisses me off.

These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
are the norm.

[Doug Taylor]

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:32:26 +0200, Ewoud Dronkert
<firstname@lastname.net.invalid> wrote:

>anton2468@aol.com wrote:
>> You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
>You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
>a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
>We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
>and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.
>
>I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
>is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
>satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
>passtime.

Wow. I nominate you for cycling saint of the year: "I am high on
life; this petty squabbling is beneath me."

What self righteous, self-important hogwash.

Did it ever occur to you that all the Master Fatties, the clubbies and
the Cat 4's and below in this world get the same satisfaction as you.
Even me.

But I suspect if you were a Cat 3 or above other people's doping just
might hit a tad closer to the bone in your personal cycling - where
your satisfaction might be more geared to your objective placing and
your points and not just your isolated and pristine subjective world.
Then you would have to decide just how above it all you really were.
Would you still stay above the fray? Would you get on your Greg
Lemond soapbox and excoriate the dopers? Or would you risk your own
health and join the club?

Somehow I doubt you've ever had to face making such a decision.

The cycling "witch hunt" makes page 10 of the newspapers in USA. On
page 1 is Barry Bonds, professional baseball and steroids. Page 2 is
American football. Page 3 is steroids and the PGA. Page 4 is doping
and the Olympics. Etc. Then there's European football. Etc.

The point is that all these spectator sports are HUGE in terms of the
money, the following, the actual importance in people's lives, even if
they are "mere diversions." Clean athletes are important on many
levels. Otherwise why would anybody be talking about it at all?

Sorry dude. Your "I'm above it all and the cure is worse than the
disease" is an unrealistic, out of touch attitude.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jul 27, 6:52 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:

>
> Bottom line: how can you slam a guy who DID win the TdF 3 times while
> clean?



****tard -


He's no longer actively involved in the racing end of cycling. He has
no firsthand knowledge whatsoever of what the current riders are or
are not doing.

For a good example of the way to act: Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault,
Miguel Indurain. If they don't know something, they don't pretend to.
The epitome of the graceful former champions.

For a good example of the way not to act: Greg Lemond. Self-righteous
blowhard. He's so egocentric he doesn't realize he's no different than
those who accused Lemond of doing drugs.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Simon Brooke]

in message <e5tja39l049qdm0sc9b6k6mgr45i04s9h2@4ax.com>, Doug Taylor
('dtaylor@dreamscape.com') wrote:

> Dumbass - Your contempt is seriously directed at the wrong guy. I'm
> thinking that Bjarne Riis' confession (of the obvious) pretty much
> supports and justifies everything Lemond has been whining about for
> more than 10 years. He was all by himself out on a limb, getting
> slammed by all the rbr cycling whores, and now he's looking pretty
> much vindicated AFAIC.
>
> Bottom line: how can you slam a guy who DID win the TdF 3 times while
> clean?

Was he clean? Was he ever clean? When he was on the US cycling team, blood
doping was systematic. Could you be on the team, and not part of the
program?

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; my other religion is Emacs

[fred.garvin@yahoo.com]

On Jul 27, 7:52 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:24:20 -0700, Kurgan Gringioni
>
> <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >That jackass seriously needs to shut up.
>
> >After he wasn't able to win anymore, he'd like it better if no one
> >else could either.
>
> >So lame. I have nothing but contempt for him.
>
> Dumbass - Your contempt is seriously directed at the wrong guy. I'm
> thinking that Bjarne Riis' confession (of the obvious) pretty much
> supports and justifies everything Lemond has been whining about for
> more than 10 years. He was all by himself out on a limb, getting
> slammed by all the rbr cycling whores, and now he's looking pretty
> much vindicated AFAIC.
>
> Bottom line: how can you slam a guy who DID win the TdF 3 times while
> clean? Put yourself in his place. How would you react if domestiques
> start dropping you and winning races - doped to the gills it turns
> out?
>
> You'd become a self righteous blowhard.
>
> Come to think of it, in some cases, you'd become simply a BIGGER and
> LOUDER version of a existing self righteous blowhard.

How do you know Lemond was clean? Because he says so? Hell, Vino,
Riss (up until a few months ago, anyway) Landis, Millar (until he was
already caught), Basso, etc... all said they were clean.

You can shout it to the rafters but that don't make it so.

Fred

[Tom Kunich]

"Doug Taylor" <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote in message
news:e5tja39l049qdm0sc9b6k6mgr45i04s9h2@4ax.com...
>
> Bottom line: how can you slam a guy who DID win the TdF 3 times while
> clean? Put yourself in his place. How would you react if domestiques
> start dropping you and winning races - doped to the gills it turns
> out?

He let someone give him a shot ostensibly of "iron" claiming to be anemic
(which is extremely difficult for a man) and then became superman.

So tell me all about how clean he was.

[gracesaves@gmail.com]

On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>
My hands are raised. We now know enough that synthetic EPO was not in
existence then. So what did Lemond take? Iron would be my best
guess...



>
>
> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> > winners, and no races either.
> > That's a perfect solution.
> > Next witch to the stake please!
>
> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro that
> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>
> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.

[Bret]

On Jul 27, 7:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> > winners, and no races either.
> > That's a perfect solution.
> > Next witch to the stake please!
>
> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro that
> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>
> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.

Jackass,

You've changed your tune:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/c3f5c0fa70cfe361?hl=en&

[teaser4ever@gmail.com]

On Jul 27, 3:55 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> > winners, and no races either.
> > That's a perfect solution.
> > Next witch to the stake please!
>
> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro that
> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>
> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.

It's quite obvious.

After a lead shot he was slowly lowering his metal habit with Iron. At
the end he probably used copper ^^

Do I get a price?

[RicodJour]

On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro that
> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>
> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.

At the time doping wasn't even on my radar and it still sounded
extremely odd.

The way he cries I'm sure he's a woman - maybe he was menstruating
heavily and lost a lot of blood.

R

[benjo maso]

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:dPmqi.12334$Od7.1075@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
>> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
>> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
>> winners, and no races either.
>> That's a perfect solution.
>> Next witch to the stake please!
>
> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro
> that year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an
> "iron deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>
> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.


It's quite possible his doctor gave him epo. But if he did, so what? In 1989
it was not yet on the list of banned substances, and by almost all doctors
only seen as a very effective medicine for patients suffering from aneamia.
Anyhow, according to dr. Jeanne-Pierre de Modenard, probably world's
greatest expert in the field of the history of doping, writer of six
extremel;y informative books on the subject, and owner of an incredible rich
archive, declared a few days ago that he is convinced that Greg Lemond is
the only TdF-winner after the war who never deliberately used doping.

Benjo

[Tom Nakashima]

<teaser4ever@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185544789.166575.204450@r34g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jul 27, 3:55 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
>> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
>> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
>> > winners, and no races either.
>> > That's a perfect solution.
>> > Next witch to the stake please!
>>
>> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro
>> that
>> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
>> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>>
>> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.
>
> It's quite obvious.
>
> After a lead shot he was slowly lowering his metal habit with Iron. At
> the end he probably used copper ^^
>
> Do I get a price?
>

Maybe there's something mysterious about metal that we don't know about.
-tom

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 27, 7:05 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> <teaser4e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1185544789.166575.204450@r34g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 27, 3:55 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>
> >> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> >> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> >> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> >> > winners, and no races either.
> >> > That's a perfect solution.
> >> > Next witch to the stake please!
>
> >> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro
> >> that
> >> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
> >> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>
> >> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.
>
> > It's quite obvious.
>
> > After a lead shot he was slowly lowering his metal habit with Iron. At
> > the end he probably used copper ^^
>
> > Do I get a price?
>
> Maybe there's something mysterious about metal that we don't know about.

After you graduate from The School of Rock, you can do graduate work
in Metal. Good luck.

[Tom Kunich]

"Morten Reippuert Knudsen" <spam@reippuert.dk> wrote in message
news:7b7pn4-lf9.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk...
> Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
>> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
>> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
>> winners, and no races either.
>> That's a perfect solution.
>> Next witch to the stake please!
>
> What do you think about Evans and Leipheimer being clients of Dr.
> Michele Ferrari?

With all that proof who could doubt you?

[rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com]

On Jul 27, 3:08 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
> Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> > winners, and no races either.
> > That's a perfect solution.
> > Next witch to the stake please!
>
> What do you think about Evans and Leipheimer being clients of Dr.
> Michele Ferrari?

Now you're in "Bargaining." Still got Depression and Acceptance to go.

[Tom Kunich]

"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1185545801.692785.38560@57g2000hsv.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro
>> that
>> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
>> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>>
>> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.
>
> At the time doping wasn't even on my radar and it still sounded
> extremely odd.
>
> The way he cries I'm sure he's a woman - maybe he was menstruating
> heavily and lost a lot of blood.

Precisely - if anyone doesn't recognize the effects of EPO from his story
they simply don't know anything about the stuff.

[Michael Press]

In article
<1185545801.692785.38560@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.co m>,
RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> > I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro that
> > year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
> > deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
> >
> > Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.
>
> At the time doping wasn't even on my radar and it still sounded
> extremely odd.
>
> The way he cries I'm sure he's a woman - maybe he was menstruating
> heavily and lost a lot of blood.

Dammit, RJ! You are way ahead on points. What are you taking?

--
Michael Press

[Tom Kunich]

"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:5gudeeF3h0sbhU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:dPmqi.12334$Od7.1075@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
>> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>>>
>>> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
>>> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
>>> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
>>> winners, and no races either.
>>> That's a perfect solution.
>>> Next witch to the stake please!
>>
>> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro
>> that year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an
>> "iron deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>>
>> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.
>
> It's quite possible his doctor gave him epo. But if he did, so what? In
> 1989 it was not yet on the list of banned substances, and by almost all
> doctors only seen as a very effective medicine for patients suffering from
> aneamia. Anyhow, according to dr. Jeanne-Pierre de Modenard, probably
> world's greatest expert in the field of the history of doping, writer of
> six extremel;y informative books on the subject, and owner of an
> incredible rich archive, declared a few days ago that he is convinced that
> Greg Lemond is the only TdF-winner after the war who never deliberately
> used doping.

I'm not saying that LeMond doped on purpose but that he is calling everyone
else a cheater when he so obviously was juiced as well.

This isn't about the winners of the Tour de France - whatever happened is
over and done with. It is about the crying about cheaters by people who
cheat.

What about that ******* who posts here who was kicked out of racing for
doping and has spent the last couple of years screaming about how everyone
in cycling is a cheater?

[Bob Schwartz]

benjo maso wrote:
> Anyhow, according to dr. Jeanne-Pierre de Modenard, probably world's
> greatest expert in the field of the history of doping, writer of six
> extremel;y informative books on the subject, and owner of an incredible rich
> archive, declared a few days ago that he is convinced that Greg Lemond is
> the only TdF-winner after the war who never deliberately used doping.

Poor Gino is turning over in his grave.

Bob Schwartz

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jul 27, 7:43 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:

>
> The point is that all these spectator sports are HUGE in terms of the
> money,



Ignoramous -


The budget of all the Protour teams combined is only about $200
million (if that). That's a lot of money for an individual, but
compared to the entire economy it's nothing.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 27, 7:43 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:

> But I suspect if you were a Cat 3 or above other people's doping just
> might hit a tad closer to the bone in your personal cycling - where
> your satisfaction might be more geared to your objective placing and
> your points and not just your isolated and pristine subjective world.

You're a nut. I was and I never cared in the least bit if someone was
doping. If someone doesn't want to cycle-race, no one is forcing them
to do it.

> Otherwise why would anybody be talking about it at all?

Because you are a loud-mouth.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Wow. I nominate you for cycling saint of the year: "I am high on
> life; this petty squabbling is beneath me."
>
> What self righteous, self-important hogwash.
>
> Did it ever occur to you that all the Master Fatties, the clubbies and
> the Cat 4's and below in this world get the same satisfaction as you.
> Even me.
>
> But I suspect if you were a Cat 3 or above other people's doping just
> might hit a tad closer to the bone in your personal cycling - where
> your satisfaction might be more geared to your objective placing and
> your points and not just your isolated and pristine subjective world.
> Then you would have to decide just how above it all you really were.
> Would you still stay above the fray? Would you get on your Greg
> Lemond soapbox and excoriate the dopers? Or would you risk your own
> health and join the club?
>
> Somehow I doubt you've ever had to face making such a decision.
>
> The cycling "witch hunt" makes page 10 of the newspapers in USA. On
> page 1 is Barry Bonds, professional baseball and steroids. Page 2 is
> American football. Page 3 is steroids and the PGA. Page 4 is doping
> and the Olympics. Etc. Then there's European football. Etc.
>
> The point is that all these spectator sports are HUGE in terms of the
> money, the following, the actual importance in people's lives, even if
> they are "mere diversions." Clean athletes are important on many
> levels. Otherwise why would anybody be talking about it at all?
>
> Sorry dude. Your "I'm above it all and the cure is worse than the
> disease" is an unrealistic, out of touch attitude.

You got all that out of these two paragraphs?

>>You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
>>a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
>>We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
>>and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.
>>
>>I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
>>is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
>>satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
>>passtime.

When I was a lowly Cat-2, racing with Cat 1 & Pros, doping was there in the
background. People knew of it, but, I dunno why, it just didn't matter. It
was a choice that others made to cheat, although I don't think some of us
even saw it as cheating per se. It was more like an extension of the
recreational drug usage so popular at the time (mid-70s). Did I have less
chance of winning because I didn't dope? I never thought of it that way.
Factually, it *may* have been true, but I believed then, and still believe
now, my biggest obstacle to my own success was found in the mirror. I
thought then, and still believe now, that you can win without doping. It may
not be as easy, and you may have to work a lot harder.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't go after those doping. I'm just saying that
it doesn't have to kill the sport for the rest of us, whether we're
spectators or Masters Fatties or whatever.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

[RicodJour]

On Jul 27, 11:32 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> > Wow. I nominate you for cycling saint of the year: "I am high on
> > life; this petty squabbling is beneath me."
>
> > What self righteous, self-important hogwash.
>
> > Did it ever occur to you that all the Master Fatties, the clubbies and
> > the Cat 4's and below in this world get the same satisfaction as you.
> > Even me.
>
> > But I suspect if you were a Cat 3 or above other people's doping just
> > might hit a tad closer to the bone in your personal cycling - where
> > your satisfaction might be more geared to your objective placing and
> > your points and not just your isolated and pristine subjective world.
> > Then you would have to decide just how above it all you really were.
> > Would you still stay above the fray? Would you get on your Greg
> > Lemond soapbox and excoriate the dopers? Or would you risk your own
> > health and join the club?
>
> > Somehow I doubt you've ever had to face making such a decision.
>
> > The cycling "witch hunt" makes page 10 of the newspapers in USA. On
> > page 1 is Barry Bonds, professional baseball and steroids. Page 2 is
> > American football. Page 3 is steroids and the PGA. Page 4 is doping
> > and the Olympics. Etc. Then there's European football. Etc.
>
> > The point is that all these spectator sports are HUGE in terms of the
> > money, the following, the actual importance in people's lives, even if
> > they are "mere diversions." Clean athletes are important on many
> > levels. Otherwise why would anybody be talking about it at all?
>
> > Sorry dude. Your "I'm above it all and the cure is worse than the
> > disease" is an unrealistic, out of touch attitude.
>
> You got all that out of these two paragraphs?
>
> >>You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
> >>a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
> >>We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
> >>and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.
>
> >>I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
> >>is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
> >>satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
> >>passtime.
>
> When I was a lowly Cat-2, racing with Cat 1 & Pros, doping was there in the
> background. People knew of it, but, I dunno why, it just didn't matter. It
> was a choice that others made to cheat, although I don't think some of us
> even saw it as cheating per se. It was more like an extension of the
> recreational drug usage so popular at the time (mid-70s). Did I have less
> chance of winning because I didn't dope? I never thought of it that way.
> Factually, it *may* have been true, but I believed then, and still believe
> now, my biggest obstacle to my own success was found in the mirror. I
> thought then, and still believe now, that you can win without doping. It may
> not be as easy, and you may have to work a lot harder.
>
> I'm not suggesting we shouldn't go after those doping. I'm just saying that
> it doesn't have to kill the sport for the rest of us, whether we're
> spectators or Masters Fatties or whatever.

Indeed. It seems to me that the real objection is that doping is not
"fair". For the life of me, I can't think of a single thing in this
life that _is_ fair. I can understand the disappointment when a
sporting hero is exposed for a cheat, but, really, what do you
expect? People are attempting to legislate stupidity out of existence
and "fairness" into existence. Ain't gonna happen. Get over it and
get on with the business at hand.

The thing that I find most unfortunate is that Munchkin being booted
happened at the end of the mountain stages and now all we're left with
are some flats and a TT. Disappointment and denouement were not part
of the script. All the riders just want to go home. Let's just skip
to the TT, put an asterisk next to the winner's name and move on.
There's always next year.

R

[Doug Taylor]

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:32:00 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote:


>When I was a lowly Cat-2, racing with Cat 1 & Pros, doping was there in the
>background. People knew of it, but, I dunno why, it just didn't matter. It
>was a choice that others made to cheat, although I don't think some of us
>even saw it as cheating per se. It was more like an extension of the
>recreational drug usage so popular at the time (mid-70s). Did I have less
>chance of winning because I didn't dope? I never thought of it that way.
>Factually, it *may* have been true, but I believed then, and still believe
>now, my biggest obstacle to my own success was found in the mirror. I
>thought then, and still believe now, that you can win without doping. It may
>not be as easy, and you may have to work a lot harder.
>
>I'm not suggesting we shouldn't go after those doping. I'm just saying that
>it doesn't have to kill the sport for the rest of us, whether we're
>spectators or Masters Fatties or whatever.

First, from where I sit Cat. 2 is not lowly; it's god-like :-)

Second, anybody who posts or lurks on rbr - whether all year or only
in July - loves the sport and doesn't want it killed. We loved this
year's tour when Kodi, Vino and Skeletor were in it, and the podium
was an actual competition, dope or no dope.

It's just that some of us have a naive belief that a level playing
field of athletes competing on just "food" and training, and not stuff
that has to be injected with needles, is preferable to the status quo,
and also the innocent hope that it somehow can be pulled off.

[benjo maso]

"Bob Schwartz" <bob.schwartz@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Tnoqi.29182$2v1.15685@newssvr14.news.prodigy. net...
> benjo maso wrote:
>> Anyhow, according to dr. Jeanne-Pierre de Modenard, probably world's
>> greatest expert in the field of the history of doping, writer of six
>> extremel;y informative books on the subject, and owner of an incredible
>> rich archive, declared a few days ago that he is convinced that Greg
>> Lemond is the only TdF-winner after the war who never deliberately used
>> doping.
>
> Poor Gino is turning over in his grave.


Not quite. Bartali has told in an interview that in the last year of his
career he once saw how one of the Maggini brothers offered some pink pills
to the other. Bartali asked if he could have one too, being curious what all
the fuzz was about. He said it made him sick. By the way. let's hope
Prudhomme won't discover it: he probably would erase Bartali's name from the
history of the Tour.

Benjo

[Sandy]

Dans le message de news:pg4ka3502le39ftbfpu4j3uedgnobe1cl5@4ax.com,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:21:40 -0700, anton2468@aol.com wrote:
>
>> On Jul 27, 8:38 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Jul 27, 5:12 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> JC <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>>>>> http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,22143376-23218,00.html
>>>>> -------
>>>>> LeMond said: "If Rasmussen got caught, and if you want to be
>>>>> equal, you have to implicate other riders, too.
>>>>> "You have a lot of riders against whom there's a lot of evidence
>>>>> and relations to certain doctors. Those riders are getting away
>>>>> with it. "Alberto Contador and Rasmussen are at 60kgs each and
>>>>> both are climbing as fast as Pantani did. That's a red flag right
>>>>> there," he said in a reference to the late Italian Marco Pantani,
>>>>> a superb climber who won both the Tour de France and Giro
>>>>> d'Italia in 1998. "Contador has been involved in 'Operation
>>>>> Puerto'," he added, citing the doping scandal that rocked Spain.
>>>>> "I'm not pointing fingers at Contador. I'm just saying that if
>>>>> you point fingers at Rasmussen, you have to look at the riders
>>>>> next to him."
>>>>> LeMond said he thinks the Tour de France would be better served
>>>>> if it didn't name a champion this year.
>>>>> "I would prefer to see a non-Tour de France winner," he said.
>>>>> --------
>>>
>>>> My respect for Lemond is the uttermost. If cycling really want's to
>>>> be a clean sport it needs to start taking the few people telling
>>>> the truth seriously, insted of dismissing their motives. Jachkse,
>>>> Simioni and Mazano's are the only heros.
>>>
>>>> We still have an all dirty podium:
>>>
>>>> Evans and Leipheimer are clients of Dr. Ferari, Contardor is deeply
>>>> involved with operation puerto and rumord to still have Manolo Saiz
>>>> as his personal adviser.
>>>
>>>> Rasmussen is out because of a case of extremely bad press handling.
>>>
>>>> Acording to CSC's pressagent, Brian Nygaard, Rabobanks pressagent
>>>> Jacob Bergman has done just about everything wrong. Nyggard said
>>>> that he would have called an pressconference before the tour when
>>>> Michael Rasmussen got his 2nd warnming from the UCI and told the
>>>> press about the warnings and the exclusion from the dansih
>>>> national team.
>>>> After that there wouldn't have been a case. I'd guess a team like
>>>> Discovery would have handled it simmilar to what Nygaard's
>>>> suggesting and steared clear.
>>>
>>>> Nygaard says that he has even tried counceling Jacob Bergsma
>>>> durring the last two weeks but Bergman hasn't been open to
>>>> suggestions.
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-)
>>>> <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
>>>
>>>> Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be
>>> banned for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't
>>> cheat, and he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would
>>> be no winners, and no races either.
>>> That's a perfect solution.
>>> Next witch to the stake please!
>>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>>
>> You can see smoke, feel the heat, smell the burning, see the damage,
>> but you just cant admit there is a fire in the house because the
>> flames arn't visible from the outside.
>
> You are so bereft of clue. This entire tantrum amounted to nothing
> more than "they're faster than me, they must be dirty." That really
> is all he's got.
>
> And you know what? Even if they are all doping, they can put down the
> needle, but Greg is still going to be an ******* who has to live with
> himself 24 hours of every hellish day.
>
> BTW, does he drink heavily?
>
> Ron

Do you still beat your wife/partner/monkey?
Drop it, or your mimicry of JFT and Lafferty will flatten you.

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jul 27, 9:46 am, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> He's no longer actively involved in the racing end of cycling. He has
> no firsthand knowledge whatsoever of what the current riders are or
> are not doing.
>
> For a good example of the way to act: Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault,
> Miguel Indurain. If they don't know something, they don't pretend to.
> The epitome of the graceful former champions.
>
> For a good example of the way not to act: Greg Lemond. Self-righteous
> blowhard. He's so egocentric he doesn't realize he's no different than
> those who accused Lemond of doing drugs.

Dumbass,

I am not totally disrespectful of Greg. He does
seem to attract jackassical behavior from people who
in fact turn out to be jackasses. However I agree
that he has no specific knowledge and so it really
bothers me when he points at riders based on
nothing other than that they are at the top of the
leaderboard. But actually, I just want to point out
that this was predictable at the beginning of the month:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/0d433d2710c3d67d

Ben

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 27, 9:46 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:

> Second, anybody who posts or lurks on rbr - whether all year or only
> in July - loves the sport and doesn't want it killed. We loved this
> year's tour when Kodi, Vino and Skeletor were in it, and the podium
> was an actual competition, dope or no dope.

I enjoy it. But really, I don't care if cycling lives or dies. If it
can't survive on its own merits, then bye-bye. You think bike racing
is important. It isn't to me.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> First, from where I sit Cat. 2 is not lowly; it's god-like :-)

From where I sit, it's not even something I can really relate to at all.
Actually that's not true. There's still that drive inside that wants me to
race again, but there's no way I have the time to do so, nor the inclination
to be that selfish and take more time away from the business and family.

Meanwhile, I'm in France with my 14 year old son, watching things play out.
Fortunately the various scandals aren't diminishing his enjoyment of the
race.

Funny, when I raced competitively, I never cared that much about the Tour de
France. Now I'm over here again, 7th year in a row I think, maybe 8th,
losing track!

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Doug Taylor" <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote in message
news:4t7ka31fiju0ejmpo3v2ffm3oqk3milas0@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:32:00 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>
>>When I was a lowly Cat-2, racing with Cat 1 & Pros, doping was there in
>>the
>>background. People knew of it, but, I dunno why, it just didn't matter. It
>>was a choice that others made to cheat, although I don't think some of us
>>even saw it as cheating per se. It was more like an extension of the
>>recreational drug usage so popular at the time (mid-70s). Did I have less
>>chance of winning because I didn't dope? I never thought of it that way.
>>Factually, it *may* have been true, but I believed then, and still believe
>>now, my biggest obstacle to my own success was found in the mirror. I
>>thought then, and still believe now, that you can win without doping. It
>>may
>>not be as easy, and you may have to work a lot harder.
>>
>>I'm not suggesting we shouldn't go after those doping. I'm just saying
>>that
>>it doesn't have to kill the sport for the rest of us, whether we're
>>spectators or Masters Fatties or whatever.
>
> First, from where I sit Cat. 2 is not lowly; it's god-like :-)
>
> Second, anybody who posts or lurks on rbr - whether all year or only
> in July - loves the sport and doesn't want it killed. We loved this
> year's tour when Kodi, Vino and Skeletor were in it, and the podium
> was an actual competition, dope or no dope.
>
> It's just that some of us have a naive belief that a level playing
> field of athletes competing on just "food" and training, and not stuff
> that has to be injected with needles, is preferable to the status quo,
> and also the innocent hope that it somehow can be pulled off.

[Michael Press]

In article
<4t7ka31fiju0ejmpo3v2ffm3oqk3milas0@4ax.com>,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:32:00 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>
> >When I was a lowly Cat-2, racing with Cat 1 & Pros, doping was there in the
> >background. People knew of it, but, I dunno why, it just didn't matter. It
> >was a choice that others made to cheat, although I don't think some of us
> >even saw it as cheating per se. It was more like an extension of the
> >recreational drug usage so popular at the time (mid-70s). Did I have less
> >chance of winning because I didn't dope? I never thought of it that way.
> >Factually, it *may* have been true, but I believed then, and still believe
> >now, my biggest obstacle to my own success was found in the mirror. I
> >thought then, and still believe now, that you can win without doping. It may
> >not be as easy, and you may have to work a lot harder.
> >
> >I'm not suggesting we shouldn't go after those doping. I'm just saying that
> >it doesn't have to kill the sport for the rest of us, whether we're
> >spectators or Masters Fatties or whatever.
>
> First, from where I sit Cat. 2 is not lowly; it's god-like :-)
>
> Second, anybody who posts or lurks on rbr - whether all year or only
> in July - loves the sport and doesn't want it killed. We loved this
> year's tour when Kodi, Vino and Skeletor were in it, and the podium
> was an actual competition, dope or no dope.
>
> It's just that some of us have a naive belief that a level playing
> field of athletes competing on just "food" and training, and not stuff
> that has to be injected with needles, is preferable to the status quo,
> and also the innocent hope that it somehow can be pulled off.

It is preferable but this state of affairs has never
existed in any competitive endeavor.

--
Michael Press

[Bill C]

On Jul 27, 12:49 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 27, 7:43 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The point is that all these spectator sports are HUGE in terms of the
> > money,
>
> Ignoramous -
>
> The budget of all the Protour teams combined is only about $200
> million (if that). That's a lot of money for an individual, but
> compared to the entire economy it's nothing.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.

Nice troll, you aren't that ignorant. Their budgets and their economic
impact are totally seperate animals.
Bill C

[Doug Taylor]

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:01:22 -0700, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwhite@ti.com>
wrote:
>
>> But I suspect if you were a Cat 3 or above other people's doping just
>> might hit a tad closer to the bone in your personal cycling - where
>> your satisfaction might be more geared to your objective placing and
>> your points and not just your isolated and pristine subjective world.
>
>You're a nut. I was and I never cared in the least bit if someone was
>doping. If someone doesn't want to cycle-race, no one is forcing them
>to do it.

What's the next step up from saint? Bodhisattva?

Congratu-****ing-lations, dude, you're the champ.

Good thing I'm just a no talent club rider, because I'm pretty friggin
sure if I was of Pro/1/2 caliber, and busted my ass on regular food
and hard work to race for the podium, and was knocked off by people
who cheated, I would one pissed off mofo.

So hat's off to you, Buddha boy; we're not worthy...

>> Otherwise why would anybody be talking about it at all?
>
>Because you are a loud-mouth.

Another irony challenged cretin who posts on usenet and calls other
people loud-mouths.

[Simon Brooke]

in message <1185555843.700837.297990@e16g2000pri.googlegroups. com>, SLAVE
of THE STATE ('gwhite@ti.com') wrote:

> On Jul 27, 9:46 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
>> Second, anybody who posts or lurks on rbr - whether all year or only
>> in July - loves the sport and doesn't want it killed. We loved this
>> year's tour when Kodi, Vino and Skeletor were in it, and the podium
>> was an actual competition, dope or no dope.
>
> I enjoy it. But really, I don't care if cycling lives or dies. If it
> can't survive on its own merits, then bye-bye. You think bike racing
> is important. It isn't to me.

Fine. Off you go and discuss something that is important to you, somewhere
else. It's important to me, and to a number of other people here.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If any council in the country has anything to say to cyclists
;; about cycle paths, it should be: "We are terribly, terribly sorry."
- Zoe Williams, The Guardian, 13th Sept 2006

[Tom Nakashima]

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <gwhite@ti.com> wrote in message
news:1185555983.222905.39850@d30g2000prg.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jul 27, 7:05 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> <teaser4e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1185544789.166575.204450@r34g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 27, 3:55 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> >> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> >> > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be
>> >> > banned
>> >> > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat,
>> >> > and
>> >> > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
>> >> > winners, and no races either.
>> >> > That's a perfect solution.
>> >> > Next witch to the stake please!
>>
>> >> I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the
>> >> Giro
>> >> that
>> >> year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an
>> >> "iron
>> >> deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>>
>> >> Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.
>>
>> > It's quite obvious.
>>
>> > After a lead shot he was slowly lowering his metal habit with Iron. At
>> > the end he probably used copper ^^
>>
>> > Do I get a price?
>>
>> Maybe there's something mysterious about metal that we don't know about.
>
> After you graduate from The School of Rock, you can do graduate work
> in Metal. Good luck.
>

You mean metallography?
-tom

[Bob Schwartz]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> Was he clean? Was he ever clean? When he was on the US cycling team, blood
> doping was systematic. Could you be on the team, and not part of the
> program?

Lemond left the US team and turned pro in 1980 after the Moscow
Olympics.

The US Cycling Team blood doping scandal was in 1984. By that
time Lemond was standing on the Tour podium with Fignon and
Hinault.

Bob Schwartz

[Tuschinski]

On Jul 27, 7:34 pm, Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

> There are exactly two cyclists in the peloton today who it would upset me
> to learn were doping: Jens Voigt, and Tom Boonen. I believe in their
> integrity and I would feel really disillusioned if they were doping now.
> I'm not even a Boonen fan. I wouldn't even be upset to learn that Jens had
> doped five years ago...

Unless i am completely mistaken in a prior TdF Boonen rather
emotionally screamed at the Jury *Stages as these is why we use Epo!!!
*. It's not a confession and it was made in anger (I do not remember
the setting anymore). Also, team Qstep and Lefevre had some skeletons
in their cupboard, some of them are still rambling (Strong suspicions
against Lefvre).

So Boonen... I love the guy as a cyclist, but I wouldn't put my money
on him being clean. Sorry :(

[r15757@aol.com]

On Jul 27, 11:34 am, Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

> David Millar, Thomas Voeckler, Magnus Backstedt, Alexander Vinokourov?
> These are guys I love to watch, whom I'll cheer for any stage they race -
> but it wouldn't shock me to learn that any of them were doping.


You cheer for Voeckler?

[Tuschinski]

On Jul 27, 8:12 pm, gracesa...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>
> My hands are raised. We now know enough that synthetic EPO was not in
> existence then. So what did Lemond take? Iron would be my best
> guess...
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> > > for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> > > he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> > > winners, and no races either.
> > > That's a perfect solution.
> > > Next witch to the stake please!
>
> > I do find it very interesting that LeMond was riding poorly in the Giro that
> > year and a month later after magically discovering that he had an "iron
> > deficiency" and a mysterious shot, he won the Tour de France.
>
> > Everyone who doesn't know what that means raise your hands.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm going to play devil's advocate and assume Greg was taking
something. for this excersise I'm assuming he did get Iron, but with
something alongside of it.

Epo should be combined with Iron supplements, wich makes Gregs
injection so interesting. Now considering it can't be Epo, are their
similar things that work well with Iron Supplements? For instance,
does Blooddope need iron supplements?


Back to the real world: We have no proof something happened, though
the impact of the iron injection seems to be far beyond what is
therapeutically expectable. Yes, Greg's body already had proven it's
amazing recuperation talent when he was shot, so maybe he was telling
the truth. But the team he rode for that year, it's people around it,
hardly can be called epitaphs of modern clean cycling. All in all it
remains a mystery to me what happened, though I do think he did
something naughty^^

[William Asher]

wrote:

> On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>>
> My hands are raised. We now know enough that synthetic EPO was not in
> existence then. So what did Lemond take? Iron would be my best
> guess...

Synthetic EPO was available in 1989.

http://tinyurl.com/3xhbmh

Lemond has also demonstrated a willingness to be an early adopter of new
technology.

--
Bill Asher

[benjo maso]

<gracesaves@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185559923.282834.309070@b79g2000hse.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>>
> My hands are raised. We now know enough that synthetic EPO was not in
> existence then. So what did Lemond take? Iron would be my best
> guess...


EPO came on the market in 1987. It was on the list of prohibited substances
in 1990. Lemond's exploit was in 1989.

Benjo

[Tom Kunich]

<gracesaves@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185559923.282834.309070@b79g2000hse.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jul 27, 9:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1185539930.774897.201190@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
>>
> My hands are raised. We now know enough that synthetic EPO was not in
> existence then. So what did Lemond take? Iron would be my best
> guess...

EPO was discovered in 1977, it was synthesized in 1983 and dutch cyclists
were already dropping dead from thick blood in 1989 when LeMond won his
second Tour. (TIOOYK)

[Simon Brooke]

in message <1185560662.142677.246010@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.c om>,
Tuschinski ('Tuschinski@gmail.com') wrote:

> So Boonen... I love the guy as a cyclist, but I wouldn't put my money
> on him being clean. Sorry :(

Fair enough. I will still be horribly disappointed if he turns out to be
doping.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Tuschinski <Tuschinski@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 27, 7:34 pm, Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

> > There are exactly two cyclists in the peloton today who it would upset me
> > to learn were doping: Jens Voigt, and Tom Boonen. I believe in their
> > integrity and I would feel really disillusioned if they were doping now.
> > I'm not even a Boonen fan. I wouldn't even be upset to learn that Jens had
> > doped five years ago...

> Unless i am completely mistaken in a prior TdF Boonen rather
> emotionally screamed at the Jury *Stages as these is why we use Epo!!!
> *. It's not a confession and it was made in anger (I do not remember
> the setting anymore). Also, team Qstep and Lefevre had some skeletons
> in their cupboard, some of them are still rambling (Strong suspicions
> against Lefvre).

Muesseuw et. all, secondly we know that even Bettini did somthing
nasty i the MAPAI years with Bartoli. Just accept it, the majority on
the elder riders and team personal did the nasty thing. A lot of them
still (an quite a few of the younger riders) still do.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

[Tuschinski]

On Jul 27, 8:30 pm, anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> On Jul 27, 9:32 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> > > You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
> > You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
> > a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
> > We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
> > and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.
>
> > I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
> > is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
> > satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
> > passtime.
>
> > --
> > E. Dronkert
>
> Ewoud
>
> I raced against East Germans. It pissed me off. I coached crews
> against drugs, It pissed me off. I ****ing hate cheating c+nts who
> cannot just train hard, take pain and if they are not good enough then
> lose.
>
> Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
> pisses me off.
>
> These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
> are the norm.

Before you carry out the torches, a few things I want to say.

Rowing isn't clean (never was)
Soccer isn't clean
Baseball isn't clean

Yet you grandstand about how evil cyclists are.... I'm sorry, you seem
to have a tunnelvision wich makes you one of those inquisitors with
those whitebedsheets over their heads.

Why aren't you pushing for release of the Soccer names implied in
Puerto? Why is Fuentes admonition that he was contacted by (amongst
others Barcelona!) ignored?

I think you are taking it out on cyclism out of spite. Question your
own motives before you torch these fellow human beings, okay?

[Donald Munro]

anton2468 wrote:
> Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
> pisses me off.
>
> These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
> are the norm.

The neanderthals hated the humans too. We had better tools.

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jul 27, 11:30 am, anton2...@aol.com wrote:
>
> I raced against East Germans. It pissed me off. I coached crews
> against drugs, It pissed me off. I ****ing hate cheating c+nts who
> cannot just train hard, take pain and if they are not good enough then
> lose.
>
> Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
> pisses me off.
>
> These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
> are the norm.

The East Germans were too soft to train hard? I mean,
other than Jan Ullrich.

Cycling doesn't "represent" the home of drug taking
cheaters. Drug taking and cheating is a symptom of
a universal human problem, cutting corners under
competitive pressure to get ahead. We don't, or
shouldn't, kill things because of what they "represent."
At best we rip them because of what they _are_.

You're pissed off that people cheat in rowing, and
you see high profile cheating in cycling, which has
more money in it than rowing, so maybe the cheating
and the catch-rate are both higher. But it still
makes no sense to me that you're pissed off at all
of cycling because somebody cheated at rowing. How
do you feel about dopers in rowing? I mean, unless
you think that there aren't any more dopers in
rowing now that those softies from East Germany
are gone.

Ben

[anton2468@aol.com]

On Jul 27, 2:39 pm, Tuschinski <Tuschin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 27, 8:30 pm, anton2...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 27, 9:32 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> > wrote:
>
> > > anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > You are the Epitomy of the cycling enthusiast in denial.
>
> > > You don't get it at all. Bill knows perfectly well what goes on or has
> > > a pretty good idea, like we all have. Why are you on such a mission?
> > > We mostly don't care. Or at least, I care about cycling as a spectacle
> > > and think that the witch hunt is much worse than the doping.
>
> > > I also care about cycling as a participant but then, too, the doping
> > > is totally unimportant. Who cares if others dope? I get my
> > > satisfaction from training, suffering and improving. It's just a
> > > passtime.
>
> > > --
> > > E. Dronkert
>
> > Ewoud
>
> > I raced against East Germans. It pissed me off. I coached crews
> > against drugs, It pissed me off. I ****ing hate cheating c+nts who
> > cannot just train hard, take pain and if they are not good enough then
> > lose.
>
> > Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
> > pisses me off.
>
> > These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
> > are the norm.
>
> Before you carry out the torches, a few things I want to say.
>
> Rowing isn't clean (never was)
> Soccer isn't clean
> Baseball isn't clean
>
> Yet you grandstand about how evil cyclists are.... I'm sorry, you seem
> to have a tunnelvision wich makes you one of those inquisitors with
> those whitebedsheets over their heads.
>
> Why aren't you pushing for release of the Soccer names implied in
> Puerto? Why is Fuentes admonition that he was contacted by (amongst
> others Barcelona!) ignored?
>
> I think you are taking it out on cyclism out of spite. Question your
> own motives before you torch these fellow human beings, okay?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yeah

Rowing is not clean. 95% of it is.
90% of elite cycling is clearly doping.

[Donald Munro]

anton2468 wrote:
> 90% of elite cycling is clearly doping.

In that case its a level playing field.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jul 27, 11:53 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > Ignoramous -
>
> > The budget of all the Protour teams combined is only about $200
> > million (if that). That's a lot of money for an individual, but
> > compared to the entire economy it's nothing.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.
>
> Nice troll, you aren't that ignorant. Their budgets and their economic
> impact are totally seperate animals.


Dumbass -


Au contraire.

The economic impacts are mirrored by the budgets. If the economic
impacts on their sponsors were bigger, more sponsors would see the
value and try to get in, thereby driving up the asking rate of a
ProTour outfit.

The market for those outfits are unregulated. If you could convince a
potential sponsor that they could invest $20 million in a team
(Disco's asking price is $15M) and the sponsor would get $30 million
more profit the next year as a result of the exposure, you could hire
a bunch of riders and have yourself a team.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Morten Reippuert Knudsen]

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Morten Reippuert Knudsen" <spam@reippuert.dk> wrote in message
> news:7b7pn4-lf9.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk...
> > Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Well your aproach would validate Greg because they would all be banned
> >> for life, except Greg, 'cause he's the only one who didn't cheat, and
> >> he'd be the virtual winner of everything, or there would be no
> >> winners, and no races either.
> >> That's a perfect solution.
> >> Next witch to the stake please!
> >
> > What do you think about Evans and Leipheimer being clients of Dr.
> > Michele Ferrari?

> With all that proof who could doubt you?

Leipheimer is a former Ferrari client, while at Gerolsteiner the team
prohibeted him using Ferrari. Now he is back with Discovery whom we
know doesn't have any problems with Michele Ferrari.

As of Evans, he apperantly himself says that he is working with
Ferrari. German sport channel had a note yesterday:
<http://www.sport1.de/de/sport/artikel_1500377.html>

Secondly, Evans was part of the Australian OL200 cycling team. They did
very well, hirering ex DDR cycling trainers for the nationalteam
durring the 90s paid of, a kickstarted an Austrailian cycling.

As of the "Iv'e lost to cheats before and i will loose to cheats
again" remark, he must refer to himself.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

[William Asher]

Donald Munro wrote:

> anton2468 wrote:
>> Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
>> pisses me off.
>>
>> These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
>> are the norm.
>
> The neanderthals hated the humans too. We had better tools.

You're always going on about penis size.

--
Bill Asher

[anton2468@aol.com]

On Jul 27, 3:46 pm, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> anton2468 wrote:
> > Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
> > pisses me off.
>
> > These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
> > are the norm.
>
> The neanderthals hated the humans too. We had better tools.

Donald...its cheating. Grow up and open your eyes.

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Jul 27, 3:00 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> EPO was discovered in 1977, it was synthesized in 1983 and dutch cyclists
> were already dropping dead from thick blood in 1989 when LeMond won his
> second Tour. (TIOOYK)

Amphetamines have been around since the late 20's.

Who says Lemond knew what was in his medications?

(Whatever) It's funny to hear him "red flag" riders ("too heavy to
climb like that") in the Tour when his own history is such a glass
house-- the "lead poisoning" and subsequent miraculous recovery just
in time to win the Tour that counted (not the Giro).

A friend and I were discussing last evening. His plan? Amnesty (I'd
go back five years. Or ten.) followed by a death (life exclusion)
sentence.

I don't know about the death part, given the vagaries of being tested
and leaked by French labs, but the amnesty part is really appealing.

Then maybe they can make some rules they can enforce without wiretaps
and jailhouse confessions and DNA bull****.

Talk about believing in fairy tales:

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-tourdefrance-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns


<Virtually no one close to cycling believes the peloton is clean -- or
will be for years. Deception and self-denial are rife, tarnishing an
event that has battled doping demons since its first edition in 1903.

<Doping entails a web of deception, and sports psychologists say
athletes are lying to themselves, as much as to their fans.

<"We've lost sight of the true purpose of sports," said JoAnn
Dahlkoetter of Stanford University. "Instead of building character,
self-discipline and determination, we've developed a win-at-all-costs
attitude.">

Gaaaag me. When were "sports" ever "clean"?

Let's get real ourselves, Ms Dahlkoetter. --D-y

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 27, 12:59 pm, Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:
> in message <1185555843.700837.297...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups. com>, SLAVE
> of THE STATE ('gwh...@ti.com') wrote:
>
> > On Jul 27, 9:46 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
> >> Second, anybody who posts or lurks on rbr - whether all year or only
> >> in July - loves the sport and doesn't want it killed. We loved this
> >> year's tour when Kodi, Vino and Skeletor were in it, and the podium
> >> was an actual competition, dope or no dope.
>
> > I enjoy it. But really, I don't care if cycling lives or dies. If it
> > can't survive on its own merits, then bye-bye. You think bike racing
> > is important. It isn't to me.
>
> Fine. Off you go and discuss something that is important to you, somewhere
> else.

I'll leave that up to me.

> It's important to me, and to a number of other people here.

Dumbass, he was speaking for "we." I don't care what individuals
decide to care about or not care about, although I offer free advice.
LOL

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 27, 1:10 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Donald Munro wrote:
> > anton2468 wrote:
> >> Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
> >> pisses me off.
>
> >> These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
> >> are the norm.
>
> > The neanderthals hated the humans too. We had better tools.
>
> You're always going on about penis size.

LOL. Anton and Doug are two of the biggest tools I've seen.

[Donald Munro]

anton2468 wrote:
>>> Cycling represents the home of the drug taking cheating c+nt and it
>>> pisses me off.
>>> These drug takers are human scum. And in cycling, deny it or not, they
>>> are the norm.

Donald Munro wrote:
>> The neanderthals hated the humans too. We had better tools.

William Asher wrote:
> You're always going on about penis size.

According to the latest theories neanderthals became extinct due to a
severe case of penis envy.

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 27, 1:44 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:01:22 -0700, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> But I suspect if you were a Cat 3 or above other people's doping just
> >> might hit a tad closer to the bone in your personal cycling - where
> >> your satisfaction might be more geared to your objective placing and
> >> your points and not just your isolated and pristine subjective world.
>
> >You're a nut. I was and I never cared in the least bit if someone was
> >doping. If someone doesn't want to cycle-race, no one is forcing them
> >to do it.
>
> What's the next step up from saint? Bodhisattva?
>
> Congratu-****ing-lations, dude, you're the champ.
>
> Good thing I'm just a no talent club rider, because I'm pretty friggin
> sure if I was of Pro/1/2 caliber, and busted my ass on regular food
> and hard work to race for the podium, and was knocked off by people
> who cheated, I would one pissed off mofo.


My advice is that you get some perspective. But you're free to knot
up if you want.

[Michael Press]

In article
<oqlka3pnh56b2k81ecvrspanjc26tcpk2i@4ax.com>,
Doug Taylor <dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:01:22 -0700, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwhite@ti.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> But I suspect if you were a Cat 3 or above other people's doping just
> >> might hit a tad closer to the bone in your personal cycling - where
> >> your satisfaction might be more geared to your objective placing and
> >> your points and not just your isolated and pristine subjective world.
> >
> >You're a nut. I was and I never cared in the least bit if someone was
> >doping. If someone doesn't want to cycle-race, no one is forcing them
> >to do it.
>
> What's the next step up from saint? Bodhisattva?
>
> Congratu-****ing-lations, dude, you're the champ.
>
> Good thing I'm just a no talent club rider, because I'm pretty friggin
> sure if I was of Pro/1/2 caliber, and busted my ass on regular food
> and hard work to race for the podium, and was knocked off by people
> who cheated, I would one pissed off mofo.

There are no `ifs' about it.

> So hat's off to you, Buddha boy; we're not worthy...
>
> >> Otherwise why would anybody be talking about it at all?
> >
> >Because you are a loud-mouth.
>
> Another irony challenged cretin who posts on usenet and calls other
> people loud-mouths.

QED

--
Michael Press

[Donald Munro]

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> Dumbass, he was speaking for "we." I don't care what individuals
> decide to care about or not care about, although I offer free advice.
> LOL

The number of caregivers on rbr is becoming a real concern. Its messing up
our macho appeal.

[RicodJour]

On Jul 27, 6:01 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:
>
> Cycling doesn't "represent" the home of drug taking
> cheaters. Drug taking and cheating is a symptom of
> a universal human problem, cutting corners under
> competitive pressure to get ahead.

Well, when you put it that way, cheating and doping are survival and
competitive traits indicative of fitness. Are we supposed to
eliminate the bleeding edg