External bearings

[Sandy]

Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
Lasted less than 4000km.
Since it's there, what is the best cure?
Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
assembly.
And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
bearings?

Thanks in advance.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

[Doug Taylor]

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:50:07 +0200, "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote:

>And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
>bearings?

To revive this thread and zoom in on this question, I found this
manufacturer's site:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/CeramicBallBearings/Kit7611

Again, the size of the bearing for FSA Mega Exo is 25mm x 37mm x 7mm,
identified as a 6805 cartridge.

Appropriate to use on any bike in which the bottom bracket might get
wet, the best cartridge choice would be 6805-2RS: the 2RS referring
to two rubber seals, one on each side of the cartridge, which may
easily be removed in order to clean and re-lube the bearings. In
contrast, a 6805-ZZ cartridge has two metal shields which cannot be
reinstalled if pried off, so that if moisture seeps into the bearings,
you've got an insurmountable problem. Other configurations, as you
can see, have metal seals with snap ring, a rubber or metal seal on
one side of the cartridge only, or no covers, which would not be
recommended.

As to the bearings themselves, there are a number of choices, the
higher the quality, the higher the price: Full ceramic, ceramic
bearings stainless enclosures ABEC 7 or ABEC 3; and chrome steel no
ABEC rating.

I'm assuming that the basic chrome steel covers/bearings @ $7.95/ea is
what you get OEM from FSA.

The question is whether or not it is cost effective to spend the extra
$$ on the higher quality bearings (bb, hub, headset): is there ANY
measurable increase in performance; if so how much; and where is the
line drawn? In the in-line speed skating world, where your feet
interface very directly with your wheels, the same debate prevails.

One thing seems fairly clear to me: it does NOT seem cost effective
to buy ANY bearings from a retailer who marks up the cost of what
anybody can buy directly from the manufacturer, simply by putting
their name on them (e.g. Phil Wood).

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> Lasted less than 4000km.
> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> assembly.

Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
bearings.

> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
> bearings?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> --
> Sandy
> Verneuil-sur-Seine
> *******
>
> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
> -- Einstein, A.

[jim beam]

Sandy wrote:
> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> Lasted less than 4000km.
> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> assembly.
> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
> bearings?
>
> Thanks in advance.

first things first - see if there's a reason for this. check the bb
facings for parallelism and have them refinished if necessary. [that
was the great thing about the shimano bb cartridge system - the bb
needed minimal prep.]

regarding bearings, do they have a number etched into the metal facing
or on the seal? something like 6901-2rs or whatever? if so, you should
have a multitude of industrial supply houses able to sell you new
bearings. go for a good quality euro or usa or japanese manufacturer.
avoid the cheap chinese stuff which fsa use as oem. timken, fag, nsk,
skf, etc. are great names. if you visit the supply store, take the old
bearings with you to show them.

[Scott Gordo]

On Jul 28, 5:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> Lasted less than 4000km.
> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> assembly.
> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
> bearings?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> --
> Sandy
> Verneuil-sur-Seine
> *******
>
> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
> -- Einstein, A.

Sandy, what was your 'sensation' when the bearings went south?

I've got MegaExo and last ride noticed that when I pedalled harder and
out of the saddle (but still a good deal away from full-grunt mode) I
felt some grinding on both the left and right side. I thought I was
fastidious about facing and installation torque, but I don't think I
have even 800 miles on my bb yet. Is this pretty much what you felt
before checking the bearings?

/s

[steve]

On Jul 28, 8:27 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
wrote:
> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>
> > Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> > FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> > Lasted less than 4000km.
> > Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> > Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> > assembly.
>
> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
> bearings.
>
>
>
> > And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
> > bearings?
>
> > Thanks in advance.
> > --
> > Sandy
> > Verneuil-sur-Seine
> > *******
>
> > La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
> > il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
> > -- Einstein, A.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
supplies the bearings.

steve

[Sandy]

Dans le message de
news:1185629465.479109.106500@x35g2000prf.googlegr oups.com,
steve <ssauter@emich.edu> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Jul 28, 8:27 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:
>> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
>>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
>>> Lasted less than 4000km.
>>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
>>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
>>> assembly.
>>
>> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
>> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
>> bearings.
>>
>>
>>
>>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer
>>> reference for the bearings?
>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> --
>>> Sandy
>>> Verneuil-sur-Seine
>>> *******
>>
>>> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
>>> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
>>> -- Einstein, A.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
> durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
> supplies the bearings.
>
> steve

Thanks, both of you, but I wasn't aware that Phil made the bearings, or does
he?
He doesn't get them from a manufacturer?
Ordering from "Phil" may not be the ideal thing from where I sit.
Any other leads?
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Jul 28, 7:31 am, steve <ssau...@emich.edu> wrote:
> On Jul 28, 8:27 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>
> > > Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> > > FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> > > Lasted less than 4000km.
> > > Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> > > Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> > > assembly.
>
> > Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
> > external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
> > bearings.
>
> > > And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
> > > bearings?
>
> > > Thanks in advance.
> > > --
> > > Sandy
> > > Verneuil-sur-Seine
> > > *******
>
> > > La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
> > > il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
> > > -- Einstein, A.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
> durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
> supplies the bearings.
>
> steve

No Phil has the plastic covers as well.

[datakoll]

On Jul 28, 10:44 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
> Dans le message denews:1185629465.479109.106500@x35g2000prf.google groups.com,
> steve <ssau...@emich.edu> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 28, 8:27 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>
> >>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> >>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> >>> Lasted less than 4000km.
> >>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> >>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> >>> assembly.
>
> >> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
> >> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
> >> bearings.
>
> >>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer
> >>> reference for the bearings?
>
> >>> Thanks in advance.
> >>> --
> >>> Sandy
> >>> Verneuil-sur-Seine
> >>> *******
>
> >>> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
> >>> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
> >>> -- Einstein, A.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
> > durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
> > supplies the bearings.
>
> > steve
>
> Thanks, both of you, but I wasn't aware that Phil made the bearings, or does
> he?
> He doesn't get them from a manufacturer?
> Ordering from "Phil" may not be the ideal thing from where I sit.
> Any other leads?
> --
> Bonne route !
>
> Sandy
> Verneuil-sur-Seine FR- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

is phil anti-gaul?

[jim beam]

Sandy wrote:
> Dans le message de
> news:1185629465.479109.106500@x35g2000prf.googlegr oups.com,
> steve <ssauter@emich.edu> a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
>> On Jul 28, 8:27 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
>>>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
>>>> Lasted less than 4000km.
>>>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
>>>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
>>>> assembly.
>>> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
>>> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
>>> bearings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer
>>>> reference for the bearings?
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>> --
>>>> Sandy
>>>> Verneuil-sur-Seine
>>>> *******
>>>> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
>>>> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'�quilibre.
>>>> -- Einstein, A.- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
>> durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
>> supplies the bearings.
>>
>> steve
>
> Thanks, both of you, but I wasn't aware that Phil made the bearings, or does
> he?

he doesn't. he does however spec the grade, lube and seals, for what
that's worth. a decent manufacturer of the same spec will be just as good.

> He doesn't get them from a manufacturer?
> Ordering from "Phil" may not be the ideal thing from where I sit.
> Any other leads?

[A Muzi]

>>> "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>>>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
>>>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
>>>> Lasted less than 4000km.
>>>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
>>>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
>>>> assembly.

>> Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
>>> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
>>> bearings.

> steve <ssauter@emich.edu> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>>>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer
>>>> reference for the bearings?

>> I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
>> durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
>> supplies the bearings.

Sandy wrote:
> Thanks, both of you, but I wasn't aware that Phil made the bearings, or does
> he?
> He doesn't get them from a manufacturer?
> Ordering from "Phil" may not be the ideal thing from where I sit.
> Any other leads?

Phil has always specified the bearing tolerance range from their vendor
then filled the cartridges with Phil grease. Good history of
consistently high quality and long life.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Kenny]

On Jul 28, 10:44 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
> Dans le message denews:1185629465.479109.106500@x35g2000prf.google groups.com,
> steve <ssau...@emich.edu> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>
>
>
> > On Jul 28, 8:27 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>
> >>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> >>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> >>> Lasted less than 4000km.
> >>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> >>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> >>> assembly.
>
> >> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
> >> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
> >> bearings.
>
> >>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer
> >>> reference for the bearings?
>
> >>> Thanks in advance.
> >>> --
> >>> Sandy
> >>> Verneuil-sur-Seine
> >>> *******
>
> >>> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
> >>> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
> >>> -- Einstein, A.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
> > durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
> > supplies the bearings.
>
> > steve
>
> Thanks, both of you, but I wasn't aware that Phil made the bearings, or does
> he?
> He doesn't get them from a manufacturer?
> Ordering from "Phil" may not be the ideal thing from where I sit.
> Any other leads?
> --
> Bonne route !
>
> Sandy
> Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

There are businesses that sell only bearings. What I would do is break
out the calipers and get the dimensions of the bearings. I'd imagine
just about any bearings shop would them. You'd save a bundle too.

[Doug Taylor]

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:31:44 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>Sandy wrote:
>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
>> Lasted less than 4000km.
>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
>> assembly.
>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
>> bearings?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>
>first things first - see if there's a reason for this. check the bb
>facings for parallelism and have them refinished if necessary. [that
>was the great thing about the shimano bb cartridge system - the bb
>needed minimal prep.]

This is borne out by the FSA manual:

"Ensure that the BB shell ends are faced and square and
clean from paint"

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/downloads/MegaExo%20BB%20Carbon%20Inst%20rev%204-07%20PDF.pdf

>regarding bearings, do they have a number etched into the metal facing
>or on the seal? something like 6901-2rs or whatever? if so, you should
>have a multitude of industrial supply houses able to sell you new
>bearings.

The cartridge bearing number for FSA Mega Exo is 5805-2RS (inner
diameter 25mm, outer diameter 37mm, width 7mm) . There are
innumerable sources for these online and locally, both bearing and
bicycle retailers. The price/quality ranges from very low for the
cheap stainless that come stock from FSA, higher for stainless ABEC 5,
and much higher for ceramic ABEC 7. Choose your poison. If don't
want to get your frame bb threads faced, buy 10 on e-bay for $17.00 US
and they should keep you in business for years.
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-6805-2RS-Ball-Bearings-25mm-x-37mm-NEW-LOT_W0QQitemZ260123599965QQihZ016QQcategoryZ42310Q QcmdZViewItem

Then of course you have to remove the old and install the new.

As I mentioned in another thread, that is not so cheap and easy. You
need a Park BBT-9 or an FSA spanner to get the cups off
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404
http://search.smartbikeparts.com/page.cfm?PageID=53&action=details&sku=TL4592

You need to pry of the bearing cover without cracking or breaking it.
If you do, buy a bag from FSA @ $3.00 US/ea
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398

You need to remove the bearings, either with the right tool
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398

or the low tech jury rig approach: fix the cups in a wooden vice, and
whack the cartridge with a rubber mallet and a 27.2 mm seatpost (which
in narrow enough to fit into the cup and is wide enough to safely
dislodge the 25mm i.d. cartridge).

Install the new ones either with the right tool above, or the rubber
mallet.

Next hint. If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
crank rotation.

[Sandy]

Dans le message de news:13an1lpctm5aec4@corp.supernews.com,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>>>> "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>>>>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
>>>>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
>>>>> Lasted less than 4000km.
>>>>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
>>>>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the
>>>>> cup-bearing assembly.
>
>>> Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>>> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
>>>> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
>>>> bearings.
>
>> steve <ssauter@emich.edu> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>>>>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer
>>>>> reference for the bearings?
>
>>> I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
>>> durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
>>> supplies the bearings.
>
> Sandy wrote:
>> Thanks, both of you, but I wasn't aware that Phil made the bearings,
>> or does he?
>> He doesn't get them from a manufacturer?
>> Ordering from "Phil" may not be the ideal thing from where I sit.
>> Any other leads?
>
> Phil has always specified the bearing tolerance range from their
> vendor then filled the cartridges with Phil grease. Good history of
> consistently high quality and long life.

Again, Mr Muzi, I am grateful and now more fully informed.
However, it could just be a mite easier to get one locally, in France.
I had two tubes of Phil green long ago, and did like the results.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.

[Doug Taylor]

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:12:23 -0400, Doug Taylor
<dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:

>The cartridge bearing number for FSA Mega Exo is 5805-2RS (inner
>diameter 25mm, outer diameter 37mm, width 7mm) .

Typo! 6805-2RS

[Chalo]

Doug Taylor wrote:
>
> If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
> the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
> locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
> snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
> slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
> crank rotation.

Mmmm, hokey....

Chalo

[D'ohBoy]

On Jul 28, 4:12 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:31:44 -0700, jim beam
>
>
>
> <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >Sandy wrote:
> >> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> >> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> >> Lasted less than 4000km.
> >> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> >> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> >> assembly.
> >> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference for the
> >> bearings?
>
> >> Thanks in advance.
>
> >first things first - see if there's a reason for this. check the bb
> >facings for parallelism and have them refinished if necessary. [that
> >was the great thing about the shimano bb cartridge system - the bb
> >needed minimal prep.]
>
> This is borne out by the FSA manual:
>
> "Ensure that the BB shell ends are faced and square and
> clean from paint"
>
> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/downloads/MegaExo%20BB%20Carbon%20Inst%...
>
> >regarding bearings, do they have a number etched into the metal facing
> >or on the seal? something like 6901-2rs or whatever? if so, you should
> >have a multitude of industrial supply houses able to sell you new
> >bearings.
>
> The cartridge bearing number for FSA Mega Exo is 5805-2RS (inner
> diameter 25mm, outer diameter 37mm, width 7mm) . There are
> innumerable sources for these online and locally, both bearing and
> bicycle retailers. The price/quality ranges from very low for the
> cheap stainless that come stock from FSA, higher for stainless ABEC 5,
> and much higher for ceramic ABEC 7. Choose your poison. If don't
> want to get your frame bb threads faced, buy 10 on e-bay for $17.00 US
> and they should keep you in business for years.http://cgi.ebay.com/10-6805-2RS-Ball-Bearings-25mm-x-37mm-NEW-LOT_W0Q...
>
> Then of course you have to remove the old and install the new.
>
> As I mentioned in another thread, that is not so cheap and easy. You
> need a Park BBT-9 or an FSA spanner to get the cups offhttp://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=404http://search.smartbikeparts.com/page.cfm?PageID=53&action=details&sk...
>
> You need to pry of the bearing cover without cracking or breaking it.
> If you do, buy a bag from FSA @ $3.00 US/eahttp://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398
>
> You need to remove the bearings, either with the right toolhttp://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398
>
> or the low tech jury rig approach: fix the cups in a wooden vice, and
> whack the cartridge with a rubber mallet and a 27.2 mm seatpost (which
> in narrow enough to fit into the cup and is wide enough to safely
> dislodge the 25mm i.d. cartridge).
>
> Install the new ones either with the right tool above, or the rubber
> mallet.
>
> Next hint. If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
> the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
> locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
> snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
> slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
> crank rotation.

I would guess that you have to get your bb shell faced as it is over
68 mm (if a road bike). I noted on their web site that FSA says that
they have adjusted their acceptable variance in BB shell width to -2
to 0 of 68 mm.

Sounds like yours is too wide.

D'ohBoy

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Jul 28, 10:39 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>
> > If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
> > the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
> > locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
> > snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
> > slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
> > crank rotation.
>
> Mmmm, hokey....
>
> Chalo

agree..installed lots of FSA and other external cranks..never have
used loctite on any crank..never had one fall off or bind up on a
properly prepped frame.

[Doug Taylor]

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:59:16 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com> wrote:

>>
>> I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
>> durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
>> supplies the bearings.
>>
>> steve
>
>No Phil has the plastic covers as well.

More bull**** from the know-it-all. Phil Woods supplies the bearings,
only. The 2RS in 6805-2RS means two rubber seals; I suppose that is
what you mean. If you search online, you can also find 6805-zz, which
are sealed with stainless covers. And you can find many bearings as
good as and cheaper than Phil Wood.

The only supplier of FSA plastic bearing covers is FSA:

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398

[Doug Taylor]

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:01:36 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com> wrote:

>On Jul 28, 10:39 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Doug Taylor wrote:
>>
>> > If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
>> > the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
>> > locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
>> > snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
>> > slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
>> > crank rotation.
>>
>> Mmmm, hokey....
>>
>> Chalo
>
>agree..installed lots of FSA and other external cranks..never have
>used loctite on any crank..never had one fall off or bind up on a
>properly prepped frame.

Then why does FSA supply the locktite 641 in the freaking box with
their new carbon Mega Exo cranks, specifically advise in the
installation manual NO grease on the splines, and application of the
641 on the splines before installing the crank?

They did NOT 2 years ago when I bought my first set, and after much
frustration with loose vs. over tight cranks, I get it. I'm sorry,
but it is fact; I could care less whether you think so. A "properly
prepped" FSA Carbon crank requires locktite 641. I suspect you one
of those know-it-alls who are above reading manuals.

I've installed and reinstalled these cranks on both my bikes many,
many times. If you over torque the crank bolt in the SLIGHTEST
increment over just barely snug, the bearings bind. It has nothing to
do with a "properly prepped frame." My threads are faced, my bearings
are clean and greased, the cups are properly installed. If you torque
the crank bolt just barley snug without the locktite, your cranks will
come loose after a few miles. As I said, I also use blue locktite on
the bolt just to make sure they don't, though the 641 on the splines
should do the trick. If you torque past just barely snug, your
bearings will bind and your crank will not turn smoothly.

Sandy, if you are wrenching your own Mega Exo cranks, take heed,
follow the manual, and don't listen to this blowhard.

[A Muzi]

>>> Doug Taylor wrote:
>>>> If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
>>>> the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
>>>> locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
>>>> snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
>>>> slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
>>>> crank rotation.

>> Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mmmm, hokey....

> Qui si parla Campagnolo <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> agree..installed lots of FSA and other external cranks..never have
>> used loctite on any crank..never had one fall off or bind up on a
>> properly prepped frame.

Doug Taylor wrote:
> Then why does FSA supply the locktite 641 in the freaking box with
> their new carbon Mega Exo cranks, specifically advise in the
> installation manual NO grease on the splines, and application of the
> 641 on the splines before installing the crank?
>
> They did NOT 2 years ago when I bought my first set, and after much
> frustration with loose vs. over tight cranks, I get it. I'm sorry,
> but it is fact; I could care less whether you think so. A "properly
> prepped" FSA Carbon crank requires locktite 641. I suspect you one
> of those know-it-alls who are above reading manuals.
>
> I've installed and reinstalled these cranks on both my bikes many,
> many times. If you over torque the crank bolt in the SLIGHTEST
> increment over just barely snug, the bearings bind. It has nothing to
> do with a "properly prepped frame." My threads are faced, my bearings
> are clean and greased, the cups are properly installed. If you torque
> the crank bolt just barley snug without the locktite, your cranks will
> come loose after a few miles. As I said, I also use blue locktite on
> the bolt just to make sure they don't, though the 641 on the splines
> should do the trick. If you torque past just barely snug, your
> bearings will bind and your crank will not turn smoothly.
>
> Sandy, if you are wrenching your own Mega Exo cranks, take heed,
> follow the manual, and don't listen to this blowhard.

I think we could have just left it at "hokey". Supplying/recommending an
adhesive for this interface intimates a deeper problem . . .

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Jul 29, 12:29 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:59:16 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
> >> durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
> >> supplies the bearings.
>
> >> steve
>
> >No Phil has the plastic covers as well.
>
> More bull**** from the know-it-all. Phil Woods supplies the bearings,
> only. The 2RS in 6805-2RS means two rubber seals; I suppose that is
> what you mean. If you search online, you can also find 6805-zz, which
> are sealed with stainless covers. And you can find many bearings as
> good as and cheaper than Phil Wood.
>
> The only supplier of FSA plastic bearing covers is FSA:
>
> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398

I guess those plastic covers I have for Phil external bearings, that I
got from Phil are imaginary..ok....

[Doug Taylor]

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:14:43 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com> wrote:

>> The only supplier of FSA plastic bearing covers is FSA:
>>
>> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398
>
>I guess those plastic covers I have for Phil external bearings, that I
>got from Phil are imaginary..ok....

Maybe you as a bike shop owner can get parts from dealers that us
ordinary folk cannot get online ourselves. I have never found a
source online that provides both bearings and FSA covers - from Phil
Wood. You can, however, get both separately from many sources.

E.g.:

http://store.airbomb.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=CR3802

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=BUY_PRODUCT_STANDARD&PRODUCT.ID=2712&CATEGORY.ID=19&MODE=&TFC=TRUE

If you did get bearing AND covers from Phil Wood, two facts are beyond
dispute: Phil Wood manufactured neither the bearings nor the covers.

The company gets its bearings from bearing manufacturers, then sells
them at a mark up with the Phil Wood name on them. The point of this
thread is that the SAME quality bearings are available online directly
from bearing manufacturers at no mark up; less than half the price.

The company buys the FSA covers from FSA, and anybody in the world can
as well. For $3.00. What does Phil Wood charge you, and what do you
charge your customers for this part?

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Jul 29, 8:24 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:14:43 -0000, Qui si parla Campagnolo
>
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >> The only supplier of FSA plastic bearing covers is FSA:
>
> >>http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=estore&taxid=228&pid=398
>
> >I guess those plastic covers I have for Phil external bearings, that I
> >got from Phil are imaginary..ok....
>
> Maybe you as a bike shop owner can get parts from dealers that us
> ordinary folk cannot get online ourselves. I have never found a
> source online that provides both bearings and FSA covers - from Phil
> Wood. You can, however, get both separately from many sources.
>
> E.g.:
>
> http://store.airbomb.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=CR3802
>
> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=BUY_PRODUCT_STANDARD&PR...
>
> If you did get bearing AND covers from Phil Wood, two facts are beyond
> dispute: Phil Wood manufactured neither the bearings nor the covers.
>
> The company gets its bearings from bearing manufacturers, then sells
> them at a mark up with the Phil Wood name on them. The point of this
> thread is that the SAME quality bearings are available online directly
> from bearing manufacturers at no mark up; less than half the price.
>
> The company buys the FSA covers from FSA, and anybody in the world can
> as well. For $3.00. What does Phil Wood charge you, and what do you
> charge your customers for this part?

good bye-

[jim beam]

A Muzi wrote:
>>>> Doug Taylor wrote:
>>>>> If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
>>>>> the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
>>>>> locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
>>>>> snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
>>>>> slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
>>>>> crank rotation.
>
>>> Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Mmmm, hokey....
>
>> Qui si parla Campagnolo <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>> agree..installed lots of FSA and other external cranks..never have
>>> used loctite on any crank..never had one fall off or bind up on a
>>> properly prepped frame.
>
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>> Then why does FSA supply the locktite 641 in the freaking box with
>> their new carbon Mega Exo cranks, specifically advise in the
>> installation manual NO grease on the splines, and application of the
>> 641 on the splines before installing the crank?
>>
>> They did NOT 2 years ago when I bought my first set, and after much
>> frustration with loose vs. over tight cranks, I get it. I'm sorry,
>> but it is fact; I could care less whether you think so. A "properly
>> prepped" FSA Carbon crank requires locktite 641. I suspect you one
>> of those know-it-alls who are above reading manuals.
>>
>> I've installed and reinstalled these cranks on both my bikes many,
>> many times. If you over torque the crank bolt in the SLIGHTEST
>> increment over just barely snug, the bearings bind. It has nothing to
>> do with a "properly prepped frame." My threads are faced, my bearings
>> are clean and greased, the cups are properly installed. If you torque
>> the crank bolt just barley snug without the locktite, your cranks will
>> come loose after a few miles. As I said, I also use blue locktite on
>> the bolt just to make sure they don't, though the 641 on the splines
>> should do the trick. If you torque past just barely snug, your
>> bearings will bind and your crank will not turn smoothly.
>>
>> Sandy, if you are wrenching your own Mega Exo cranks, take heed,
>> follow the manual, and don't listen to this blowhard.
>
> I think we could have just left it at "hokey". Supplying/recommending an
> adhesive for this interface intimates a deeper problem . . .
>

the problem is lightness. with large diameter thin wall spindles, you
get distortion at the clamping point. you can't avoid it. all you can
do is lock the componentry to prevent relative movement.

[Doug Taylor]

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:11:38 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>> I think we could have just left it at "hokey". Supplying/recommending an
>> adhesive for this interface intimates a deeper problem . . .
>>
>
>the problem is lightness. with large diameter thin wall spindles, you
>get distortion at the clamping point. you can't avoid it. all you can
>do is lock the componentry to prevent relative movement.

Aha. Thanks, Jim, this makes both intuitive and empirical sense and
flew right over my head.

Next question: since the 2008 Madone does not even have cups, let
alone thin walled ones, I suppose locktite will be required to hold
the cranks on as well? The crank arms will be in virtual direct
contact with the bearing cartridges with only a bearing cover to
separate them. My amateur non mechanical brain now wonders how this
will work in practice.

What do you think? Since certain alleged bike shop owners in this
forum (and I DON'T mean Muzi or Jacoubowsky) appear to know a ton LESS
than they think they know about bicycle mechanics, and aren't much
help.

[D'ohBoy]

On Jul 30, 9:11 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> opined:
> Since certain alleged bike shop owners in this
> forum (and I DON'T mean Muzi or Jacoubowsky) appear to know a ton LESS
> than they think they know about bicycle mechanics...

Dude, check yourself.

D'ohBoy

[jim beam]

Doug Taylor wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:11:38 -0700, jim beam
> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>>> I think we could have just left it at "hokey". Supplying/recommending an
>>> adhesive for this interface intimates a deeper problem . . .
>>>
>> the problem is lightness. with large diameter thin wall spindles, you
>> get distortion at the clamping point. you can't avoid it. all you can
>> do is lock the componentry to prevent relative movement.
>
> Aha. Thanks, Jim, this makes both intuitive and empirical sense and
> flew right over my head.
>
> Next question: since the 2008 Madone does not even have cups, let
> alone thin walled ones, I suppose locktite will be required to hold
> the cranks on as well?

not sure how the cups [or lack thereof] could make a difference to the
spindle clamping. bearings just need to be parallel, exactly coaxial
and square.

> The crank arms will be in virtual direct
> contact with the bearing cartridges with only a bearing cover to
> separate them. My amateur non mechanical brain now wonders how this
> will work in practice.
>
> What do you think? Since certain alleged bike shop owners in this
> forum (and I DON'T mean Muzi or Jacoubowsky) appear to know a ton LESS
> than they think they know about bicycle mechanics, and aren't much
> help.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 30, 10:25 am, D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 30, 9:11 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> opined:
>
> > Since certain alleged bike shop owners in this
> > forum (and I DON'T mean Muzi or Jacoubowsky) appear to know a ton LESS
> > than they think they know about bicycle mechanics...
>
> Dude, check yourself.
>

......into a clinic.

[Doug Taylor]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:25:00 -0700, D'ohBoy <petengail@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Jul 30, 9:11 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> opined:
>> Since certain alleged bike shop owners in this
>> forum (and I DON'T mean Muzi or Jacoubowsky) appear to know a ton LESS
>> than they think they know about bicycle mechanics...
>
>Dude, check yourself.

?

[Doug Taylor]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:32:25 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:

>On Jul 30, 10:25 am, D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 30, 9:11 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> opined:
>>
>> > Since certain alleged bike shop owners in this
>> > forum (and I DON'T mean Muzi or Jacoubowsky) appear to know a ton LESS
>> > than they think they know about bicycle mechanics...
>>
>> Dude, check yourself.
>>
>
>.....into a clinic.

In case nobody got it, Ozark tops the list of clueless bike shop
owners on this forum. Would anybody with a brain seriously let this
nutjob get with 10 feet of their bike?

[D'ohBoy]

On Jul 30, 10:54 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:25:00 -0700, D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jul 30, 9:11 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> opined:
> >> Since certain alleged bike shop owners in this
> >> forum (and I DON'T mean Muzi or Jacoubowsky) appear to know a ton LESS
> >> than they think they know about bicycle mechanics...
>
> >Dude, check yourself.
>
> ?

? '?'

[Sandy]

Dans le message de
news:1185813844.795287.226260@r34g2000hsd.googlegr oups.com,
Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Jul 28, 5:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
>> Lasted less than 4000km.
>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
>> assembly.
>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer reference
>> for the bearings?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>> --
>> Sandy
>> Verneuil-sur-Seine
>> *******
>>
>> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
>> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
>> -- Einstein, A.
>
> Sandy, what was your 'sensation' when the bearings went south?
>
> I've got MegaExo and last ride noticed that when I pedalled harder and
> out of the saddle (but still a good deal away from full-grunt mode) I
> felt some grinding on both the left and right side. I thought I was
> fastidious about facing and installation torque, but I don't think I
> have even 800 miles on my bb yet. Is this pretty much what you felt
> before checking the bearings?
>
> /s

No skip, no grinding, no catching, just the marbles rolling around. Still
feels smooth, for the most part. Maybe I'm picky.

[M-gineering]

Sandy wrote:

>> Sandy, what was your 'sensation' when the bearings went south?
>>
>> I've got MegaExo and last ride noticed that when I pedalled harder and
>> out of the saddle (but still a good deal away from full-grunt mode) I
>> felt some grinding on both the left and right side. I thought I was
>> fastidious about facing and installation torque, but I don't think I
>> have even 800 miles on my bb yet. Is this pretty much what you felt
>> before checking the bearings?
>>
>> /s
>
> No skip, no grinding, no catching, just the marbles rolling around. Still
> feels smooth, for the most part. Maybe I'm picky.

You can't afford not to be picky with external bearing cranksets. As the
rotating inner ring has a loose fit *)on the rotating axle integral
with the crankset , roughness on the bearing will cause the inner ring
to start moving and it will turn a groove in the axle!

*) this will get you a very bad mark in mechanical engineering 101, but
the class bicycle engineering is over there -> ;)
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[Lou Holtman]

M-gineering wrote:
> Sandy wrote:
>
>>> Sandy, what was your 'sensation' when the bearings went south?
>>>
>>> I've got MegaExo and last ride noticed that when I pedalled harder and
>>> out of the saddle (but still a good deal away from full-grunt mode) I
>>> felt some grinding on both the left and right side. I thought I was
>>> fastidious about facing and installation torque, but I don't think I
>>> have even 800 miles on my bb yet. Is this pretty much what you felt
>>> before checking the bearings?
>>>
>>> /s
>>
>> No skip, no grinding, no catching, just the marbles rolling around.
>> Still feels smooth, for the most part. Maybe I'm picky.
>
> You can't afford not to be picky with external bearing cranksets. As the
> rotating inner ring has a loose fit *)on the rotating axle integral
> with the crankset , roughness on the bearing will cause the inner ring
> to start moving and it will turn a groove in the axle!
>
> *) this will get you a very bad mark in mechanical engineering 101, but
> the class bicycle engineering is over there -> ;)


Agreed. This is what I learned at engineering school. That's why the
Campy external bearing design is theoretical better.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

[Sandy]

Dans le message de news:f8l73b$npn$1@localhost.localdomain,
M-gineering <ikmotgeenspam@m-gineering.nl> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> Sandy wrote:
>
>>> Sandy, what was your 'sensation' when the bearings went south?
>>>
>>> I've got MegaExo and last ride noticed that when I pedalled harder
>>> and out of the saddle (but still a good deal away from full-grunt
>>> mode) I felt some grinding on both the left and right side. I
>>> thought I was fastidious about facing and installation torque, but
>>> I don't think I have even 800 miles on my bb yet. Is this pretty
>>> much what you felt before checking the bearings?
>>>
>>> /s
>>
>> No skip, no grinding, no catching, just the marbles rolling around. Still
>> feels smooth, for the most part. Maybe I'm picky.
>
> You can't afford not to be picky with external bearing cranksets. As
> the rotating inner ring has a loose fit *)on the rotating axle
> integral with the crankset , roughness on the bearing will cause the
> inner ring to start moving and it will turn a groove in the axle!
>
> *) this will get you a very bad mark in mechanical engineering 101,
> but the class bicycle engineering is over there -> ;)

I guess picky is OK. Thanks.

[jim beam]

M-gineering wrote:
> Sandy wrote:
>
>>> Sandy, what was your 'sensation' when the bearings went south?
>>>
>>> I've got MegaExo and last ride noticed that when I pedalled harder and
>>> out of the saddle (but still a good deal away from full-grunt mode) I
>>> felt some grinding on both the left and right side. I thought I was
>>> fastidious about facing and installation torque, but I don't think I
>>> have even 800 miles on my bb yet. Is this pretty much what you felt
>>> before checking the bearings?
>>>
>>> /s
>>
>> No skip, no grinding, no catching, just the marbles rolling around.
>> Still feels smooth, for the most part. Maybe I'm picky.
>
> You can't afford not to be picky with external bearing cranksets. As the
> rotating inner ring has a loose fit *)on the rotating axle integral
> with the crankset , roughness on the bearing will cause the inner ring
> to start moving and it will turn a groove in the axle!
>
> *) this will get you a very bad mark in mechanical engineering 101, but
> the class bicycle engineering is over there -> ;)

the facing plates are wedged are they not? just like the wedged facing
plates you have on threadless headset bearings. in theory therefore,
they should hold solid. but i agree, best practice is interference fit.
practical for cars, but not bikes i think.

[Doug Taylor]

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:29:36 -0700, D'ohBoy <petengail@yahoo.com>
wrote:


>> Next hint. If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
>> the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
>> locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
>> snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
>> slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
>> crank rotation.
>
>I would guess that you have to get your bb shell faced as it is over
>68 mm (if a road bike). I noted on their web site that FSA says that
>they have adjusted their acceptable variance in BB shell width to -2
>to 0 of 68 mm.
>
>Sounds like yours is too wide.

If you follow through this thread, you will read in a reply to Peter
Chisolm that my frame threads were faced prior to the installation of
the bb (on two bikes).

Indeed, I followed the FSA manual in the installation, and that is
where I part company with Peter.

The FSA manual now provides (it did not 2 years ago) that the crank
splines not be greased AND that they be treated with loctite 641
(incuded by FSA in the box with all new cranks) prior to installing
the crank. The loctite helps bind the crank to the splines so that
the crank bolt need not be over torqued in order to affix the cranks,
and at the same time.

I think that Jim Beam's explanation in this thread explains the need
for loctite: the cups are too thin to spread the load of the bolt
torque so that the load is concentrated at the point of the bolt and
binds the bearings.

Maybe not, but it makes sense to me.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Jul 30, 3:24 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:29:36 -0700, D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Next hint. If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
> >> the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
> >> locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
> >> snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
> >> slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
> >> crank rotation.
>
> >I would guess that you have to get your bb shell faced as it is over
> >68 mm (if a road bike). I noted on their web site that FSA says that
> >they have adjusted their acceptable variance in BB shell width to -2
> >to 0 of 68 mm.
>
> >Sounds like yours is too wide.
>
> If you follow through this thread, you will read in a reply to Peter
> Chisolm that my frame threads were faced prior to the installation of
> the bb (on two bikes).

Thanks Dug...
>
> Indeed, I followed the FSA manual in the installation, and that is
> where I part company with Peter.
>
> The FSA manual now provides (it did not 2 years ago) that the crank
> splines not be greased AND that they be treated with loctite 641
> (incuded by FSA in the box with all new cranks) prior to installing
> the crank. The loctite helps bind the crank to the splines so that
> the crank bolt need not be over torqued in order to affix the cranks,
> and at the same time.
>
> I think that Jim Beam's explanation in this thread explains the need
> for loctite: the cups are too thin to spread the load of the bolt
> torque so that the load is concentrated at the point of the bolt and
> binds the bearings.
>
> Maybe not, but it makes sense to me.

[D'ohBoy]

On Jul 30, 4:24 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:29:36 -0700, D'ohBoy <peteng...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Next hint. If you have carbon cranks, ABSOLUTELY USE LOCKTITE 641 on
> >> the crank splines as instructed in the manual, as well as blue
> >> locktite on the crank bolt. That way you can get the crank to stay
> >> snugly on without binding the new bearings you just installed. The
> >> slightest extra torque from the crank bolt will noticeably impede the
> >> crank rotation.
>
> >I would guess that you have to get your bb shell faced as it is over
> >68 mm (if a road bike). I noted on their web site that FSA says that
> >they have adjusted their acceptable variance in BB shell width to -2
> >to 0 of 68 mm.
>
> >Sounds like yours is too wide.
>
> If you follow through this thread, you will read in a reply to Peter
> Chisolm that my frame threads were faced prior to the installation of
> the bb (on two bikes).
>
> Indeed, I followed the FSA manual in the installation, and that is
> where I part company with Peter.
>

Yah, I understand where you part company. But your issue, I believe,
has nothing to do with why FSA has decided that users of their cranks
need to use Loctite. It just so happens that the loctite will mask
your true problem, which is that your bb shell is too wide. I bet
that when it was faced, they just set the faces orthogonal and
parallel, but did not face the shell to exactly 68mm.

When you tighten the cranks to spec, it becomes too tight, given the
wider shell and the bearings bind due to pressure of the crankset on
the bb inserted in the too wide shell (resulting in a bb stance that
was a smidge too wide). Again, please note that they ALSO changed the
spec by -1 on the acceptable bb shell width, making anything OVER 68
mm unacceptable. When you apply the loctite and just snug them, the
loctite takes place of the proper torque on the fixing bolt and
provides the security necessary.

I think FSA was having some customer problems with crankarm loosening/
creaking even with a properly prepped ( to 68 mm) shell and thereby
decided to rev their install procedure. Your issue is binding of
bearings due to (IMO) too wide a bb shell, not just a crank that won't
stay tight.

I would like you to, if you would, get a decent set of calipers and
measure your bb shell. Bet it's over.

D'ohBoy

[M-gineering]

jim beam wrote:

>>> No skip, no grinding, no catching, just the marbles rolling around.
>>> Still feels smooth, for the most part. Maybe I'm picky.
>>
>> You can't afford not to be picky with external bearing cranksets. As
>> the rotating inner ring has a loose fit *)on the rotating axle
>> integral with the crankset , roughness on the bearing will cause the
>> inner ring to start moving and it will turn a groove in the axle!
>>
>> *) this will get you a very bad mark in mechanical engineering 101,
>> but the class bicycle engineering is over there -> ;)
>
> the facing plates are wedged are they not?

no

just like the wedged facing
> plates you have on threadless headset bearings. in theory therefore,
> they should hold solid. but i agree, best practice is interference fit.
> practical for cars, but not bikes i think.

makes you wonder why modern cars last a hell of a lot longer with less
maintenace than those of 30-40 years ago, and why with bicycles the
opposite is true
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[Doug Taylor]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 07:54:03 -0700, D'ohBoy <petengail@yahoo.com>
wrote:


>
>Yah, I understand where you part company. But your issue, I believe,
>has nothing to do with why FSA has decided that users of their cranks
>need to use Loctite. It just so happens that the loctite will mask
>your true problem, which is that your bb shell is too wide. I bet
>that when it was faced, they just set the faces orthogonal and
>parallel, but did not face the shell to exactly 68mm.
>
>When you tighten the cranks to spec, it becomes too tight, given the
>wider shell and the bearings bind due to pressure of the crankset on
>the bb inserted in the too wide shell (resulting in a bb stance that
>was a smidge too wide). Again, please note that they ALSO changed the
>spec by -1 on the acceptable bb shell width, making anything OVER 68
>mm unacceptable. When you apply the loctite and just snug them, the
>loctite takes place of the proper torque on the fixing bolt and
>provides the security necessary.
>
>I think FSA was having some customer problems with crankarm loosening/
>creaking even with a properly prepped ( to 68 mm) shell and thereby
>decided to rev their install procedure. Your issue is binding of
>bearings due to (IMO) too wide a bb shell, not just a crank that won't
>stay tight.
>
>I would like you to, if you would, get a decent set of calipers and
>measure your bb shell. Bet it's over.

I read the FSA FAQ after reading this, and have to concede that this
sounds plausible. Doh!

I'll have to take those mofos off AGAIN and measure the freaking
thing. What pain in the ass!

I still think that Madone design which dispenses with threads, facing,
and cups is a brilliant and elegant idea.

[Doug Taylor]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:17:55 -0400, Doug Taylor
<dtaylor@dreamscape.com> wrote:


>>I think FSA was having some customer problems with crankarm loosening/
>>creaking even with a properly prepped ( to 68 mm) shell and thereby
>>decided to rev their install procedure. Your issue is binding of
>>bearings due to (IMO) too wide a bb shell, not just a crank that won't
>>stay tight.
>>
>>I would like you to, if you would, get a decent set of calipers and
>>measure your bb shell. Bet it's over.
>
>I read the FSA FAQ after reading this, and have to concede that this
>sounds plausible. Doh!
>
>I'll have to take those mofos off AGAIN and measure the freaking
>thing. What pain in the ass!

Follow up:

Removed the cups (AGAIN); measured bb shell = 68 mm. So that was not
my problem.

This from the FSA website FAQ:

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=tech&cid=79

Our Mega Exo crank/BB system utilizes two small washers that
fit over the bottom bracket spindle and sit between the crank arms and
the outer bearing face of the Mega Exo bottom bracket. There is one
for each crank arm. There are several reasons for these washers, which
include the reduction of noise as well as achieving correct bearing
adjustment.

Until December of 2004 FSA used a solid rubber O-Ring. Starting in
approx December of 2004 we started to use a rubber coated metal
washer/O-Ring. When using the new rubber coated metal washer the
‘metal side’ of the washer should face the crank arm. If necessary to
achieve correct bearing adjustment you may use two of these washers on
the left crank arm. When using two washers, they should be oriented
metal side to rubber side.

I purchased from FSA extra washers, and installed 1 on the right and 2
on the left crank arm. Voila! Crank bold tight, no more bearing
binding. It was that simple, and hard to believe that such a
miniscule adjustment could make such a difference. I also, however,
prepped the splines with Locktite 641 as recommended in the FSA
installation manual - it contributes to acheiving a firmly bound crank
with zero bearing binding.

[jim beam]

Doug Taylor wrote:
<snip for clarity>
> One thing seems fairly clear to me: it does NOT seem cost effective
> to buy ANY bearings from a retailer who marks up the cost of what
> anybody can buy directly from the manufacturer, simply by putting
> their name on them (e.g. Phil Wood).

pw don't even do that!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1076434093/

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Aug 10, 8:33 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 28, 10:44 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dans le message denews:1185629465.479109.106500@x35g2000prf.google groups.com,
> > steve <ssau...@emich.edu> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>
> > > On Jul 28, 8:27 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >> On Jul 28, 3:50 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote:
>
> > >>> Just to start someone counting, adding to anecdotal history.
> > >>> FSA SLK MegaExo - someone put marbles in the BB.
> > >>> Lasted less than 4000km.
> > >>> Since it's there, what is the best cure?
> > >>> Replacing the bearings in the casings, or replacing the cup-bearing
> > >>> assembly.
>
> > >> Phil Wood makes some great replacement bearings for these and other
> > >> external cups. Long lastingf, well made, unlike it seems the FSA
> > >> bearings.
>
> > >>> And, can someone offer a grade, size and good manufacturer
> > >>> reference for the bearings?
>
> > >>> Thanks in advance.
> > >>> --
> > >>> Sandy
> > >>> Verneuil-sur-Seine
> > >>> *******
>
> > >>> La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
> > >>> il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
> > >>> -- Einstein, A.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I'll second that. Phil will be your best choice when it comes to
> > > durability. Make sure you keep the plastic covers since phil only
> > > supplies the bearings.
>
> > > steve
>
> > Thanks, both of you, but I wasn't aware that Phil made the bearings, or does
> > he?
> > He doesn't get them from a manufacturer?
> > Ordering from "Phil" may not be the ideal thing from where I sit.
> > Any other leads?
> > --
> > Bonne route !
>
> > Sandy
> > Verneuil-sur-Seine FR- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> is phil anti-gaul?

Looking at their prices (e.g., bearings, grease, etc.), it's clear
they have quite a bit of gall.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Aug 10, 8:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>
> <snip for clarity>
>
> > One thing seems fairly clear to me: it does NOT seem cost effective
> > to buy ANY bearings from a retailer who marks up the cost of what
> > anybody can buy directly from the manufacturer, simply by putting
> > their name on them (e.g. Phil Wood).
>
> pw don't even do that!
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1076434093/


Hey, at least they re-package the marine grease and chainsaw oil in
cute 'lil Official Phil Green containers!

[jim beam]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 10, 8:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Doug Taylor wrote:
>>
>> <snip for clarity>
>>
>>> One thing seems fairly clear to me: it does NOT seem cost effective
>>> to buy ANY bearings from a retailer who marks up the cost of what
>>> anybody can buy directly from the manufacturer, simply by putting
>>> their name on them (e.g. Phil Wood).
>> pw don't even do that!
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1076434093/
>
>
> Hey, at least they re-package the marine grease and chainsaw oil in
> cute 'lil Official Phil Green containers!
>
>

yeah, but

1. it's not like he's selling garbage - it's high quality.
2. bless his little cotton socks for identifying a niche in the market
and filling it.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Aug 10, 9:19 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Aug 10, 8:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> Doug Taylor wrote:
>
> >> <snip for clarity>
>
> >>> One thing seems fairly clear to me: it does NOT seem cost effective
> >>> to buy ANY bearings from a retailer who marks up the cost of what
> >>> anybody can buy directly from the manufacturer, simply by putting
> >>> their name on them (e.g. Phil Wood).
> >> pw don't even do that!
>
> >>http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1076434093/
>
> > Hey, at least they re-package the marine grease and chainsaw oil in
> > cute 'lil Official Phil Green containers!
>
> yeah, but
>
> 1. it's not like he's selling garbage - it's high quality.

True, overpriced but good.


> 2. bless his little cotton socks for identifying a niche in the market
> and filling it.-

Were the cotton socks green, too?