Brake advise

[paul]

I just purchased a new Trek Pilot 1.0. After riding the bike for a while over a hilly route the brakes begin to make noises. The back brake has a steady click, click, click sound as well as a scrubbing noise. Obvisousley there is a seam or fixed point on the rim to make this sound. The first time I rode the bike only the back brakes where making a sound, but tonight the front brakes starting a scrubbing noise. The Raleigh Cadent I had did not make any braking noises. So any advise?
I took the bike by Raleigh Trek today and of course the brakes didn't make any noise, but after a few miles of hilly riding the noise begins.
I plan on taking it back tomorrow but thought I would throw this out and get some feedback.......thanks

[JayC]

Sounds like to me you need to open the brake up a little more.. either that or its not centered.

A lot of rims make noise at the rim joint when you brake.. its a fact of life. If you have patience, you can smooth it out some with some fine grit sandpaper but if you just bought the bike, they should probably replace the wheels.

[RickF]

Dirt on the rims or brake pads will cause the scrubbing noise. Dirt on the rim (but not the pad) can cause the clicking noise.

[paul]

No dirt on the rims or brakes....all new stuff. Again it seems like the noise begins after riding for a distance and the brakes being used.
Hopefully the Raleigh Trek store can resolve the issue this afternoon.

[RickF]

New rims usually have a film of oil from the manufacturing process on them that will attract dust as you ride. If the noise is not there when you start but gets worse as you ride, my guess is that you are picking up dust as you ride. Degrease the rims with Simple Green (or similar) and see if the noise does not go away.

[paul]

I'll try that Rick. I'm anxious to have guite bike brakes. Another question, does one upgrade the entire brake component or can the pads simply be upgraded, or is a pad a pad?

[RickF]

You can upgrade just the pad, but unless you ride a lot in the rain, I would not bother. There is nothing inherently wrong with OEM brakes on the Pilot 1.0. The pads will wear out eventually. At that point, I would consider replacing the pads with Kool Stop pads.

If you do a lot of riding in bad weather, then I would go with the Kool Stop Salmon pads sooner rather than waiting for the OEM pads to wear out.

More expensive components (105, Ultegra, or Dura Ace) are not any quieter and do not stop any better. The more expensive components are lighter, and they might last a little longer, but they do not function any better.

If I was going to upgrade anything on the Pilot 1.0, the biggest bang for the buck would be to upgrade the wheels. After that, it would be the rear derailleure. Breaks would be way down on the priorities for upgrade. Only when the OEM components wear out would I bother to replace them. With the 1.o frame, I would replace the Sora and Tiagra components with 105, but I see no reason to go to Ultegra or Dura Ace nor do I see any reason to replace the Sora and Tiagra level components until they wear out. With the 5.0 or better frame, then you could consider adding higher level components, but personally, I would still go with the 105 level.

[RickF]

I just rechecked the specs on the Pilot 1.0, and would replace the pedals first. Clipless pedals are the way to go. Whether you go with Shimano SPD, Look, Speedplay, or something else is a matter of personal choice, but clipless pedals would be the biggest improvement you could make on this bike.

One word of caution on Speedplay pedals is that they do not tolerate dirt. If you plan to get off the bike regularly, then you would be better off with something that is more forgiving.

[paul]

Rick, you are a wealth of information! Sailing I know, bikes - I'm just learning.
I do want to upgrade the pedals and some of the components as you suggested.
I'm really frustrated with the brakes..especially since I didn't experience any problems with the Raleigh bike.
What is the scoop on replacing the seat. I don't have any issues with the stock seat, but my wife wants to put a gel on the Raleigh, since that is the one she will be riding.

[RickF]

Saddles are easy to replace, but in general, gels on saddles are a bad idea. The trick with saddles is to make sure they are in the correct position. You should be sitting with the isheal tuberosities (sit bones) on the widest part of the saddle while the balls of the feet and front of the knees line up directly over the center of the pedal when the pedal is in the 3:00 position (i.e., horisontal and fully forward). If you are not sitting correctly on the saddle, no saddle is going to be comfortable.

The reason gel saddles are a bad idea is that they put too much pressure on the perineum instead of on the sit bones, which causes pressure on the arteries and nerves in the perineum.

Check out this thread for a long discussion on saddles: http://www.trianglecycling.com/showthread.php?t=18724

Also, check whether the Trek Store has a saddle trial plan. If not, I know that The Spin Cycle does. Basically, you pay a deposit, and they loan you different saddles until you find the one you like best. Then, they apply the deposit to the purchase price of the saddle. Otherwise, you could be spending a lot of money on different saddles only to find out that the new saddle is no better than the one you had. As I said, though, the proper position is the most important part of getting the saddle to be comfortable. No saddle will be comfortable if it is not positioned correctly.

As far as the brake noise goes, it is not an issue with Trek versus Raleigh. It could be the position of the brake pads, but that should cause noise all of the time, and that is something your LBS can recognize and fix quickly. Since they were not able to fix it on the first try, my guess is still dirt on the rims.

[RickF]

As far as upgrading the brakes, I just looked at the specs for the Shimano Dura Ace, Ultegra, and 105 brakes. All three have the identical dual pivot, 49 mm reach design. They come with the same pads. The work exactly the same. For the rear brakes, the differences are:

Dura Ace - MSRP $149.99 - Weight 154 grams
Ultegra - MSRP $79.99 - Weight 166 grams
105 - MSRP $54.99 - Weight - 176 grams

The front brakes are the same price and weigh about 6 grams more across the board.

When you consider that the water in a 24 ounce bottle weighs 720 grams, do you want to spend two to three times as much money to save 22 grams in weight on the brakes? Perhaps if you were a professional cyclist and a difference of 32 seconds over three weeks means the difference between first and fourth in le Tour de France you would, but not for the type of riding that most of us do.

[paul]

OK the bike is back at Trek of Raleigh. We'll see what they come up with.

[paul]

I picked the bike up on Friday evening and road about 50 miles this week end and so far no brake noise. So far, so good.

Has anyone taken the REI bike maintenance class (7 hrs)? Comments?

[RickF]

I have taken the 10 hour course at The Spin Cycle. As part of the course, I stripped my bike down to the frame and completely overhauled it. It was well worth the time and money.

[JayC]

The best bet for brake upgrades in a bang for the buck approach is the SRAM Rival brakes. Lighter than DA and stop better than Ultegras.

[paul]

Thanks for the advise. I'm sure I will want to upgrade all of the components at some point.

[RickF]

Thanks for the advise. I'm sure I will want to upgrade all of the components at some point.I would not be too quick to upgrade the components (other than the pedals and, perhaps the wheels) on that frame. By the time you are at the level that you would even notice the improvements from upgraded components, you would want a better frame, anyway.

Take your time. Find out what you like and dislike about what you have, then look at all of the available options. ou will find that for what it costs to replace the components, you probably can get a new frame with upgraded components. If you like the Pilot, it would be better to get the Pilot SL 5.9 or the Specialized Roubaix Pro than to put Shimano Dura Ace, SRAM Force, or Campagnolo Record components on your Pilot 1.0 frame. You also might decide you like a more agressive frame, like the Specialized Tarmac or Trek Madone better than the more relaxed Pilot or Roubaix.

[RickF]

The best bet for brake upgrades in a bang for the buck approach is the SRAM Rival brakes. Lighter than DA and stop better than Ultegras.296 grams for the Rival compared to 305 grams for the Dura Ace. True, 296 grams is 9 grams less than 305 grams, but a single GU pack weighs 32 grams, not counting the foil in the package. I would certainly not be concerned about 9 grams on a Pilot 1.0 frame.

As far as stopping ability, the limiting factor is how much rubber is on the road, and not the brakes themselves. Unlike the days of the steel wheels, it is now possible to lock the wheels (not something I would recommend) with any of the brakes (except for the cork pads that the pros use, but those brakes are only intended to control speed - not to stop).

That said, I agree that the SRAM Rival is a good buy if it is ever necessary to replace the brakes or if you are building a bike from a bare frame, but I would not consider it an "upgrade" to what you already have. I have yet to break or otherwise wear out brake calipars. Pads have to be replaced. Cables have to be replaced. Chains, cassettes, bottom brackets, and cranks have to be replaced, but I have never had to replace calipars before I replaced the frame.

[paul]

I agree with your assessment, I'm already stashing away cash for my next bike.
This bike stuff is addictive, is it not?

[JayC]

I personally like to be able to stop. The Rival brakes have more stopping power than anything Shimano or anyone else makes short of DA brakes without going to some ridiculous E5 $500 brakes. The DA brakes arent 296 grams either. Theyre more like 315 grams.

Im not gram counting, rather looking at it from a stopping power standpoint. The Rivals can be had for less than $100 on Ebay while the DA will run you more than double that.

[paul]

So it's been about two weeks since I picked up my bike. The guys at Trek told me they replaced the brake pads and made sure the wheel was true. I have not had any problems with the brakes since then. I assume the pads might have been defective.

[ambys]

I have a Trek Pilot 1.0. Does anybody know which Kool Stop replacement brake pads would fit into my brake sleeves? Many thanks in advance.

[JayC]

What kind of brakes are on the bike? It should be the standard DuraAce replacement pads... Id recommend either the black or the salmon/black hybrids if you can find them.

[ambys]

The brakes are "Shimano Sora"... thanks a lot in advance!

[JayC]

Yea.. the standard DuraAce style pad is what you need then.