Side pull brakes just don't work.

[ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com]

Hello,

My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
the bikes in the house.

Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
had it on clearance.

The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.

The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
think that's the solution.

Is there something I'm missing here?

It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.

Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.

Thanks In Advance.

[A Muzi]

ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
> the bikes in the house.
>
> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
> had it on clearance.
>
> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>
> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
> think that's the solution.
>
> Is there something I'm missing here?
>
> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>
> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.

steel rims? You did the usual brake cleanup but with steel rims you'll
just have limited braking.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
> had it on clearance.
>
> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.

What model bike?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187481638.427579.161860@i38g2000prf.googlegr oups.com...
> Hello,
>
> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
> the bikes in the house.
>
> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
> had it on clearance.
>
> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>
> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
> think that's the solution.
>
> Is there something I'm missing here?
>
> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>
> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks In Advance.
>

[ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com]

Thanks for all the replies. I am going to try to respond to some of
them.


<< Is the rim clean of oil/grease?

Yes The rim is clean. I've made sure.


<< Are the brake levers the same?

Yes the levers are the same.


<< Inexpensive, long-reach BMX side-pull calipers have quite a bit of
flex to them......

I watched them as I pulled the lever, and they actually don't flex
much. The flex quite a bit less than the rear U-brake arms.


<< if the adjustment is your first on sidepulls then....

Not my first, but first in a while. I did double check my technique
online, and as far as I can tell I'm doing everything right.


<< It is this bike, right?

Yes, That is the one.


<< How is the brake feel on the front in terms of cable friction?

It did have some tightness, but not bad. I lubed it, and it now has
almost none.


<<One possibility is that the levers it came with are the type that
canbe set to pull either 'traditional'...Levers like this
clearly have 2 different places for the cable...

Only 1 cable end location on the lever.


<< I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
brake mislabeled as a "U".

The rear is a "U" brake, not a "V" brake.


<< The bike in the URL appears to have the funky headset cable device
that allows one to spin the handlebars 360
degrees without binding the cables.

Yes is does have a rotor.



My son just tried it again a few minutes ago, and it's better, but
still not good. I'm going to see if the semi-local bike shop is open
today, and go pick up some pads if they are. This will probably be 1
step away from just ebaying a whole new setup (brake/lever/ cable.

[ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com]

Well, we went and bought some new pads today (koolstop BMX pads) and
they are working better. Not enough stopping power to endo, but a lot
more than before. The new pads are surely better quality, and are
almost twice the length of the original ones. I'm going to give him
some time on it now. At least a couple weeks to see if things improve,
or get worse. If they get worse I'll replace the cable bypassing the
rotor, then if that's no good replace the whole setup (lever/brake/
cable).

For now though it seems to be working well enough. I basically knew
where this was heading, but needed to get some more experienced
opinions to let me know I didn't miss something.

Again, Thanks for all the replies!!

[Joel Mayes]

On 2007-08-19, ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com <ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,

> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.

<SNIP!>

Check the brake levers, they're probably a resin/plastic material which
will be bending and reducing the amount of force applied to the brakes.

I'd also check the material of the sidepulls I've seen some on kids bike
and cheapo MTBs made out of pressed metal which is a poor material for
anything except roofing flash.

If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
better quality brake caliper for not very much.

Cheers

Joel

--
Human Powered Cycles | High quality servicing and repairs
joel@humanpowered.com.au | Affordable second hand bikes
(03) 9029 6504 | Bicycle reuse centre
www.humanpowered.com.au | Mechanical and on-road training and instruction

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
> the bikes in the house.
>
> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
> had it on clearance.
>
> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>
> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
> think that's the solution.
>
> Is there something I'm missing here?
>
> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>
> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks In Advance.

Is the rim clean of oil/grease?

Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
"V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
doesn't. Hard to believe a manufacturer would do this, but it might be a
misguided attempt to prevent "endos".

Otherwise, it appears something is defective. Inexpensive, long-reach
BMX side-pull calipers have quite a bit of flex to them, but not so much
to make braking as bad as described.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Nate Knutson]

On Aug 18, 5:00 pm, ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
> the bikes in the house.
>
> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
> had it on clearance.
>
> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>
> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
> think that's the solution.
>
> Is there something I'm missing here?
>
> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>
> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks In Advance.

It is this bike, right? http://www.diamondbackbmx.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=225

How is the brake feel on the front in terms of cable friction? Front
brakes on cheap bikes with through-the-steerer routing often have
issues with this to the extent that it soaks up enough energy to make
a difference in brake effectiveness. If the setup is frictiony as it
is, redoing it with proper length housing and minimizing sharp bends
can help, or you could use one of the fancy comes-all-together bmx
brake cable sets to completely eliminate the issue.

One possibility is that the levers it came with are the type that can
be set to pull either 'traditional' or 'v-brake/linear pull' amounts
of cable. If they were, and the front lever was incorrectly set to the
'v' mode, it would cause this exact problem because it wouldn't be
giving you enough leverage, aka mechanical advantage. Levers like this
clearly have 2 different places for the cable barrel on the lever
blade (some types have 2 simple holes that the barrel can sit in;
others have the barrel held by a pivoting part that can be set for 2
different positions).

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Joel Mayes wrote:
> ...
> If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
> better quality brake caliper for not very much.

Or one like this: <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.

(Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com]

>
> <SNIP!>
>
> Check the brake levers, they're probably a resin/plastic material which
> will be bending and reducing the amount of force applied to the brakes.
>
> I'd also check the material of the sidepulls I've seen some on kids bike
> and cheapo MTBs made out of pressed metal which is a poor material for
> anything except roofing flash.



Thanks for the reply.

Both the levers and sidepulls are cast. Not high end by any means, but
not bargain store grade. Made by Rush? Not familiar, but don't seem
like complete garbage.

That's part of why I'm so confused. I'm not a small guy and I'm
worried I'm gonna break the lever before the bike stops. I really have
to crush it to stop.

[Jim Behning]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:26:43 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@innvalid.com> wrote:

>ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>> the bikes in the house.
>>
>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>> had it on clearance.
>>
>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>
>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>> think that's the solution.
>>
>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>
>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>
>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks In Advance.
>
>Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
>
>Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
>"V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
>doesn't. Hard to believe a manufacturer would do this, but it might be a
>misguided attempt to prevent "endos".
>
>Otherwise, it appears something is defective. Inexpensive, long-reach
>BMX side-pull calipers have quite a bit of flex to them, but not so much
>to make braking as bad as described.
>
>--
>Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

I fussed about how miserable my cyclocross brakes were with cantis.
When the brake pads finally wore out I replaced the pads and the brake
performance was much better. Nowhere as great as my DuraAce but much
better. As someone mentioned it might be excessive flex in the
caliper. A slightly better brake might do the trick.

[Nate Knutson]

On Aug 18, 5:26 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hello,
>
> > My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
> > MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
> > grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
> > the bikes in the house.
>
> > Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
> > freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
> > had it on clearance.
>
> > The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> > little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>
> > The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
> > mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
> > thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
> > stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
> > Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
> > I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
> > thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
> > think that's the solution.
>
> > Is there something I'm missing here?
>
> > It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
> > remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
> > want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
> > handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
> > This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>
> > Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>
> > Thanks In Advance.
>
> Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
>
> Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
> "V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
> doesn't.

That doesn't make any sense; he said the rear ubrake is working fine.
All ubrakes use 'traditional' pull, same as the front sidepull this
bike has.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

Bypass the rotor!!!

Get rid of the rotor, which kills a ton of stopping power, and you'll
probably see a tremendous improvement. Does your son actually *need* a
rotor? Is he going to be doing acrobatic stuff that involves spinning the
handlebars around in mid-air? If not, ditch it and life will be better.

Use a separate brake lever for each brake, no rotor. What you're looking at
is a bike designed for trick riding, not stopping. Not something we'd sell
as someone's first 20" bike, since the stopping power is low, maintenance
requirements high, and this type of bike we call a "Worker's Comp Special"
(as in, so heavy you have to make sure your staff is lifting it with their
knees, not their backs). But what the heck, kids that age have plenty of
energy. Just ditch the rotor and he'll be fine.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187483474.422281.255910@x35g2000prf.googlegr oups.com...
>
>>
>> <SNIP!>
>>
>> Check the brake levers, they're probably a resin/plastic material which
>> will be bending and reducing the amount of force applied to the brakes.
>>
>> I'd also check the material of the sidepulls I've seen some on kids bike
>> and cheapo MTBs made out of pressed metal which is a poor material for
>> anything except roofing flash.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Both the levers and sidepulls are cast. Not high end by any means, but
> not bargain store grade. Made by Rush? Not familiar, but don't seem
> like complete garbage.
>
> That's part of why I'm so confused. I'm not a small guy and I'm
> worried I'm gonna break the lever before the bike stops. I really have
> to crush it to stop.
>

[* * Chas]

<ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187483474.422281.255910@x35g2000prf.googlegr oups.com...
>
> >
> > <SNIP!>
> >
> > Check the brake levers, they're probably a resin/plastic material
which
> > will be bending and reducing the amount of force applied to the
brakes.
> >
> > I'd also check the material of the sidepulls I've seen some on kids
bike
> > and cheapo MTBs made out of pressed metal which is a poor material for
> > anything except roofing flash.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Both the levers and sidepulls are cast. Not high end by any means, but
> not bargain store grade. Made by Rush? Not familiar, but don't seem
> like complete garbage.
>
> That's part of why I'm so confused. I'm not a small guy and I'm
> worried I'm gonna break the lever before the bike stops. I really have
> to crush it to stop.
>

You should be able to get a dual pivot front brake by Tektro and others
for not too much money. This will give him good stopping power with much
more control.

Chas.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Aug 18, 7:50 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> Joel Mayes wrote:
> > ...
> > If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
> > better quality brake caliper for not very much.
>
> Or one like this: <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.
>
> (Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)
>

Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!

Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.

Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:

http://tinyurl.com/25smaj

The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
price.

Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric, why
do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!

;-)

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 18, 7:50 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>> Joel Mayes wrote:
>>> ...
>>> If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
>>> better quality brake caliper for not very much.
>> Or one like this: <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.
>>
>> (Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)
>>
>
> Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
>
> Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
>
> Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
>
> The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
> I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
> price.
>
> Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric, why
> do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
> customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!

Look in the mirror and you will find an answer. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Aug 18, 7:18 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Aug 18, 7:50 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>
> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> > Joel Mayes wrote:
> > > ...
> > > If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
> > > better quality brake caliper for not very much.
>
> > Or one like this: <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.
>
> > (Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)
>
> Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
>
> Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
>
> Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
>
> The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
> I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
> price.
>
> Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric, why
> do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
> customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!
>
> ;-)

Both are keystoned, BTW-is one for a pair and the other for a single??

[RonSonic]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:18:12 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:

>On Aug 18, 7:50 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
><sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>> Joel Mayes wrote:
>> > ...
>> > If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
>> > better quality brake caliper for not very much.
>>
>> Or one like this: <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.
>>
>> (Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)
>>
>
>Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
>
>Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
>
>Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
>
>The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
>I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
>price.
>
>Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric, why
>do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
>customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!

Value added.

Not since the old bikepro site has anyone made that much information available.

You are permitted to quit *****ing about it and offer a more affordable
alternative complete with cheerful info and handy buyers guides or you can
continue to ***** that the guy who put in all the work is getting more attention
than the guy who carps on the internets. It is indeed a free country and you can
take either approach.

Ron

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Aug 18, 8:48 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 7:50 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> > <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> >> Joel Mayes wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
> >>> better quality brake caliper for not very much.
> >> Or one like this: <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.
>
> >> (Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)
>
> > Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
>
> > Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
>
> > Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
>
> > The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
> > I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
> > price.
>
> > Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric, why
> > do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
> > customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!
>
> Look in the mirror and you will find an answer. ;)
>

In any case, you have proved once again that Harris Cyclery is not the
place for a fair deal. :->

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> > Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
>>
>> > Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
>>
>> > Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
>>
>> >http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
>>
>> > The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
>> > I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
>> > price.
>>
>> > Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric, why
>> > do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
>> > customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!
>>
>> Look in the mirror and you will find an answer. ;)
>>
>
> In any case, you have proved once again that Harris Cyclery is not the
> place for a fair deal. :->

There's more to a "fair deal" than just the price. Harris Cyclery does a
phenomenal job of not only running down unusual, useful items, but they also
keep them in stock (they don't just buy them when someone's closing
something out cheap) and provide a huge amount of useful information on
their website. If not for that website, many (most?) people bringing up some
items as a solution wouldn't have known they exist. Some people see value in
that and are willing to buy from them, even though their pricing may be a
bit higher.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 18, 8:48 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Aug 18, 7:50 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>>>> Joel Mayes wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to get a
>>>>> better quality brake caliper for not very much.
>>>> Or one like this: <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.
>>>> (Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)
>>> Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
>>> Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
>>> Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
>>> The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
>>> I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
>>> price.
>>> Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric, why
>>> do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
>>> customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!
>> Look in the mirror and you will find an answer. ;)
>>
>
> In any case, you have proved once again that Harris Cyclery is not the
> place for a fair deal. :->
>
Do this other places that offer parts at much lower prices offer no
additional charge advice on component compatibility, installation
procedures, etc. like Harris does?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[datakoll]

if the adjustment is your first on sidepulls then get a manual from
the library or do a web search and review the adjustment procedure
against yours-step by step.
you need three hands. or a good thumb. center pads.vice grip the
cable. squeeze pads against poly bottle shims. pull cable taut. snap
cable lever closed. tighten cable screw with adjuster sent at 1/3rd
low. tighten cable adjuster and balance/center pads. right?
wype rim down with thinner, then CHO to remove thinner. wipe pads.

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Nate Knutson wrote:
> On Aug 18, 5:26 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>>> the bikes in the house.
>>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>>> had it on clearance.
>>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>>> think that's the solution.
>>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>>> Thanks In Advance.
>> Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
>>
>> Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
>> "V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
>> doesn't.
>
> That doesn't make any sense; he said the rear ubrake is working fine.
> All ubrakes use 'traditional' pull, same as the front sidepull this
> bike has.

I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
brake mislabeled as a "U".

Do BMX bikes use "U" brakes, and if so, why?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Mark]

Nate Knutson wrote:
> On Aug 18, 5:00 pm, ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>> the bikes in the house.
>>
>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>> had it on clearance.
>>
>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>
>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>> think that's the solution.
>>
>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>
>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>
>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks In Advance.
>
> It is this bike, right? http://www.diamondbackbmx.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=225

Hope not, for the OP's sake. The bike in the URL appears to have the
funky headset cable device that allows one to spin the handlebars 360
degrees without binding the cables. I've worked on a few of those for
the neighborhood kids and can attest that they (the cable devices, not
the kids) are the work of the devil. Kludgy at best, they could be the
cause of the trouble.

Mark J.

[Dan Burkhart]

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com Wrote:
> On Aug 18, 7:18 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 7:50 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> >
> > <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> > > Joel Mayes wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > If there is a local bicycle recycle place you should be able to
> get a
> > > > better quality brake caliper for not very much.
> >
> > > Or one like this:
> <http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1046>.
> >
> > > (Look Zarkie, a Harris link!)
> >
> > Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
> >
> > Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
> >
> > Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
> >
> > The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the price!
> > I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
> > price.
> >
> > Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric,
> why
> > do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
> > customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!
> >
> > ;-)
>
> Both are keystoned, BTW-is one for a pair and the other for a single??
Wonder how many are going to wonder if that means they came from
Pennsylvania. Let's let them keep wondering, eh?


--
Dan Burkhart

[datakoll]

I
..

the central voussoir?

[Nate Knutson]

On Aug 19, 7:06 am, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> Nate Knutson wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 5:26 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> > <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
> >> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
> >>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
> >>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
> >>> the bikes in the house.
> >>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
> >>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
> >>> had it on clearance.
> >>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
> >>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
> >>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
> >>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
> >>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
> >>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
> >>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
> >>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
> >>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
> >>> think that's the solution.
> >>> Is there something I'm missing here?
> >>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
> >>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
> >>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
> >>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
> >>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
> >>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
> >>> Thanks In Advance.
> >> Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
>
> >> Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
> >> "V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
> >> doesn't.
>
> > That doesn't make any sense; he said the rear ubrake is working fine.
> > All ubrakes use 'traditional' pull, same as the front sidepull this
> > bike has.
>
> I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
> brake mislabeled as a "U".
>
> Do BMX bikes use "U" brakes, and if so, why?

Yes, u-brakes are the norm for all types of bmx freestyle (not race).
They're also referred to as 990-style brakes after the original AD990
brake. V-brakes can be found as current spec on a very few lower end
freestyle-ish bikes and on many bmx-style kids bikes (but not this
one), and are also the norm for race bikes.

As ronsonic said, lack of any protruding parts is a big plus. They
also work without major interference issues for both chainstay and
seatstay mounted frames. V-brakes tend to find ways of either
contacting your legs/ankles or finding ways of getting trashed even if
it's just by virtue of the cable and noodle needing to go around the
side of the seattube.

[A Muzi]

>>> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>>>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>>>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>>>> the bikes in the house.
>>>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>>>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>>>> had it on clearance.
>>>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>>>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>>>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>>>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>>>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>>>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>>>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>>>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>>>> think that's the solution.
>>>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>>>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>>>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>>>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>>>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.

>> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>>> Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
>>> Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
>>> "V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
>>> doesn't.

> Nate Knutson wrote:
>> That doesn't make any sense; he said the rear ubrake is working fine.
>> All ubrakes use 'traditional' pull, same as the front sidepull this
>> bike has.

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
> brake mislabeled as a "U".
> Do BMX bikes use "U" brakes, and if so, why?

Freestyle/ flatland bikes still use them. Clearance/cable run issues
are resolved well with that brake.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[RonSonic]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:06:49 -0500, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@innvalid.com> wrote:

>Nate Knutson wrote:
>> On Aug 18, 5:26 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>>> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>>>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>>>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>>>> the bikes in the house.
>>>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>>>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>>>> had it on clearance.
>>>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>>>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>>>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>>>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>>>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>>>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>>>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>>>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>>>> think that's the solution.
>>>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>>>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>>>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>>>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>>>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>>>> Thanks In Advance.
>>> Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
>>>
>>> Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
>>> "V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
>>> doesn't.
>>
>> That doesn't make any sense; he said the rear ubrake is working fine.
>> All ubrakes use 'traditional' pull, same as the front sidepull this
>> bike has.
>
>I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
>brake mislabeled as a "U".
>
>Do BMX bikes use "U" brakes, and if so, why?

Ever since the dark ages. Mostly, I think, because they don't protrude anywhere
- no dangly bits to put a foot on - no loops of cable anywhere or cable ends
spear your calf or anything silly.

Ron

[A Muzi]

>> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>>> the bikes in the house.
>>>
>>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>>> had it on clearance.
>>>
>>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>>
>>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>>> think that's the solution.
>>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.

> Nate Knutson wrote:
>> It is this bike, right?
>> http://www.diamondbackbmx.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=225

Mark wrote:
> Hope not, for the OP's sake. The bike in the URL appears to have the
> funky headset cable device that allows one to spin the handlebars 360
> degrees without binding the cables. I've worked on a few of those for
> the neighborhood kids and can attest that they (the cable devices, not
> the kids) are the work of the devil. Kludgy at best, they could be the
> cause of the trouble.

Rotors can work well, often with a new not-yet-kinked-and-rusted cable
set* which are very available and cheap. At any rate, he got the rear
set up satisfactorily. The front's where his troubles lie and rotors
aren't used for fronts.
*Rotor cables can't be disassembled for lubrication like normal brake
cables so do always work oil into them before installation.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Dan Burkhart]

Mike Jacoubowsky Wrote:
> >> > Yep, another link to that shop which has consistently high prices!
> >>
> >> > Harris wants $19.95 for a single Tektro 984.
> >>
> >> > Hmmm....here's a link to *the first place* I happened to look:
> >>
> >> >http://tinyurl.com/25smaj
> >>
> >> > The *same* Tektro 984 caliper for $9.99! Just about half the
> price!
> >> > I'm sure if I looked a little longer, I could find an even lower
> >> > price.
> >>
> >> > Tom, with all your left-wing, socialist, pro-working man rhetoric,
> why
> >> > do you consistently recommend a shop that regularly overcharges
> >> > customers?? Overcharges by 100% in this case!!!
> >>
> >> Look in the mirror and you will find an answer. ;)
> >>
> >
> > In any case, you have proved once again that Harris Cyclery is not
> the
> > place for a fair deal. :->
>
> There's more to a "fair deal" than just the price. Harris Cyclery does
> a
> phenomenal job of not only running down unusual, useful items, but they
> also
> keep them in stock (they don't just buy them when someone's closing
> something out cheap) and provide a huge amount of useful information
> on
> their website. If not for that website, many (most?) people bringing up
> some
> items as a solution wouldn't have known they exist. Some people see
> value in
> that and are willing to buy from them, even though their pricing may be
> a
> bit higher.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Mike,you are right on. It would appear that many here are unfamiliar,
or just plain unsympathetic to the concept of overhead. There is a ton
of it when running a bricks and mortar outlet, but some of us prefer to
conduct business face to face with our customers and provide the service
that the internet outlets cannot.
Being fairly new to the business, I still have fresh memories of the
process I went through to formulate a business plan. Predicating that
plan on anything less than standard industry pricing formulae would
have had me laughed out of the bank. When we then charge those prices
we must to remain afloat, we are accused of gouging. Well, you can't
have it both ways. Service comes at a price.
As for Harris, I have relied on them as a source for stuff that just
isn't available elsewhere. When I must pay retail for the goods, I pass
them on to my customer without markup. I don't squawk at Harris' prices,
because I know they are priced at, or sometimes below MSRP. Nothing
unfair or dishonest about that.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca


--
Dan Burkhart

[ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com]

Thanks for all the replies. I am going to try to respond to some of
them.


<< Is the rim clean of oil/grease?

Yes The rim is clean. I've made sure.


<< Are the brake levers the same?

Yes the levers are the same.


<< Inexpensive, long-reach BMX side-pull calipers have quite a bit of
flex to them......

I watched them as I pulled the lever, and they actually don't flex
much. The flex quite a bit less than the rear U-brake arms.


<< if the adjustment is your first on sidepulls then....

Not my first, but first in a while. I did double check my technique
online, and as far as I can tell I'm doing everything right.


<< It is this bike, right?

Yes, That is the one.


<< How is the brake feel on the front in terms of cable friction?

It did have some tightness, but not bad. I lubed it, and it now has
almost none.


<<One possibility is that the levers it came with are the type that
canbe set to pull either 'traditional'...Levers like this
clearly have 2 different places for the cable...

Only 1 cable end location on the lever.


<< I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
brake mislabeled as a "U".

The rear is a "U" brake, not a "V" brake.


<< The bike in the URL appears to have the funky headset cable device
that allows one to spin the handlebars 360
degrees without binding the cables.

Yes is does have a rotor.



My son just tried it again a few minutes ago, and it's better, but
still not good. I'm going to see if the semi-local bike shop is open
today, and go pick up some pads if they are. This will probably be 1
step away from just ebaying a whole new setup (brake/lever/ cable.

[A Muzi]

ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies. I am going to try to respond to some of
> them.
> << Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
> Yes The rim is clean. I've made sure.
> << Are the brake levers the same?
> Yes the levers are the same.
> << Inexpensive, long-reach BMX side-pull calipers have quite a bit of
> flex to them......
> I watched them as I pulled the lever, and they actually don't flex
> much. The flex quite a bit less than the rear U-brake arms.
> << if the adjustment is your first on sidepulls then....
> Not my first, but first in a while. I did double check my technique
> online, and as far as I can tell I'm doing everything right.
> << It is this bike, right?
> Yes, That is the one.
> << How is the brake feel on the front in terms of cable friction?
> It did have some tightness, but not bad. I lubed it, and it now has
> almost none.
> <<One possibility is that the levers it came with are the type that
> canbe set to pull either 'traditional'...Levers like this
> clearly have 2 different places for the cable...
> Only 1 cable end location on the lever.
> << I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
> brake mislabeled as a "U".
> The rear is a "U" brake, not a "V" brake.
> << The bike in the URL appears to have the funky headset cable device
> that allows one to spin the handlebars 360
> degrees without binding the cables.
> Yes is does have a rotor.
> My son just tried it again a few minutes ago, and it's better, but
> still not good. I'm going to see if the semi-local bike shop is open
> today, and go pick up some pads if they are. This will probably be 1
> step away from just ebaying a whole new setup (brake/lever/ cable.

You sound like an reasonable and somewhat informed/experienced guy. If
you can't get a reasonable brake response, yes, a new brake is cheap
compared to a rider injury. If it has steel wheels, get an aluminum
front wheel, also not expensive.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Nate Knutson wrote:
> On Aug 19, 7:06 am, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>> Nate Knutson wrote:
>>> On Aug 18, 5:26 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0...@innvalid.com> wrote:
>>>> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>>>>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>>>>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>>>>> the bikes in the house.
>>>>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>>>>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>>>>> had it on clearance.
>>>>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>>>>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>>>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>>>>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>>>>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>>>>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>>>>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>>>>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>>>>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>>>>> think that's the solution.
>>>>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>>>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>>>>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>>>>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>>>>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>>>>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>>>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>>>>> Thanks In Advance.
>>>> Is the rim clean of oil/grease?
>>>> Are the brake levers the same? If so and if they are designed for
>>>> "V-brakes", it would explain why the back brake works and the front
>>>> doesn't.
>>> That doesn't make any sense; he said the rear ubrake is working fine.
>>> All ubrakes use 'traditional' pull, same as the front sidepull this
>>> bike has.
>> I was wondering if the rear brake was actually a "U" brake or a "V"
>> brake mislabeled as a "U".
>>
>> Do BMX bikes use "U" brakes, and if so, why?
>
> Yes, u-brakes are the norm for all types of bmx freestyle (not race).
> They're also referred to as 990-style brakes after the original AD990
> brake. V-brakes can be found as current spec on a very few lower end
> freestyle-ish bikes and on many bmx-style kids bikes (but not this
> one), and are also the norm for race bikes.

When I was a kid, it seemed like most of the BMX bikes had just a rear
coaster brake or a long reach side-pull in front with a rear coaster.
Freestyle bikes were almost unheard of, particularly for adults.

> As ronsonic said, lack of any protruding parts is a big plus. They
> also work without major interference issues for both chainstay and
> seatstay mounted frames. V-brakes tend to find ways of either
> contacting your legs/ankles or finding ways of getting trashed even if
> it's just by virtue of the cable and noodle needing to go around the
> side of the seattube.

Makes sense.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Nate Knutson]

On Aug 19, 10:23 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Bypass the rotor!!!
>
> Get rid of the rotor, which kills a ton of stopping power, and you'll
> probably see a tremendous improvement. Does your son actually *need* a
> rotor? Is he going to be doing acrobatic stuff that involves spinning the
> handlebars around in mid-air? If not, ditch it and life will be better.
>
> Use a separate brake lever for each brake, no rotor. What you're looking at
> is a bike designed for trick riding, not stopping.

Detanglers can only affect the stopping power of the front brake by
way of adding friction to the front brake cable/housing. That can be
significant but the op has said that he's got the cable feel pretty
smooth at this point.

Bikes with detanglers and both front and rear brakes do use 2 levers.
The front brake cable is routed through a hollow topcap bolt, down the
inside of the steerer, out the bottom, and looped around to connect to
the brake.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Detanglers can only affect the stopping power of the front brake by
> way of adding friction to the front brake cable/housing. That can be
> significant but the op has said that he's got the cable feel pretty
> smooth at this point.

Experience in the real world says otherwise. It's the convoluted routing
the cable takes on its way to the underside of the brake (on the front) that
causes problems. That plus...

> Bikes with detanglers and both front and rear brakes do use 2 levers.
> The front brake cable is routed through a hollow topcap bolt, down the
> inside of the steerer, out the bottom, and looped around to connect to
> the brake.

.... the bike in question, as seen in the link provided elsewhere, shows just
one brake lever. That means they're using a splitter, so your rotor is
affecting both front & rear brakes, not just the rear.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

[Mark]

Nate Knutson wrote:
> On Aug 19, 10:23 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Bypass the rotor!!!
>>
>> Get rid of the rotor, which kills a ton of stopping power, and you'll
>> probably see a tremendous improvement. Does your son actually *need* a
>> rotor? Is he going to be doing acrobatic stuff that involves spinning the
>> handlebars around in mid-air? If not, ditch it and life will be better.
>>
>> Use a separate brake lever for each brake, no rotor. What you're looking at
>> is a bike designed for trick riding, not stopping.
>
> Detanglers can only affect the stopping power of the front brake by
> way of adding friction to the front brake cable/housing. That can be
> significant but the op has said that he's got the cable feel pretty
> smooth at this point.
>
> Bikes with detanglers and both front and rear brakes do use 2 levers.
> The front brake cable is routed through a hollow topcap bolt, down the
> inside of the steerer, out the bottom, and looped around to connect to
> the brake.

OK, now I'm confused. I posted a suggestion that the
detangler/rotor/let-you-spin-the-bars-thingie was to blame, but now I
realize the rotor connects only to the rear brake, which the OP says
works well. The front brake seems to operate by an oddly-routed but
simple cable-and-housing setup, with the housing not even that tightly
curved, yet that's the brake the OP says is NG.

I'd still ditch the rotor, lest it start to degrade the one (rear) brake
that /is/ working on the bike, but now I don't understand what's wrong
with the front.

Good luck to the OP, changing pads sounds like it might help.

Mark J.

[datakoll]

try 'rubber prep' or 'BELT CONDITIONER' from Dis**** Auto. cut red
pipe short, spray on rim's brake surface. allow to dry.
if that's not good enough, dribble masonary sand onto the 'prep'

[Hank Wirtz]

On Aug 19, 2:11 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> try 'rubber prep' or 'BELT CONDITIONER' from Dis**** Auto. cut red
> pipe short, spray on rim's brake surface. allow to dry.
> if that's not good enough, dribble masonary sand onto the 'prep'

Or the kid could just throw a stick in the spokes.

[RonSonic]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:11:40 -0000, datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>try 'rubber prep' or 'BELT CONDITIONER' from Dis**** Auto. cut red
>pipe short, spray on rim's brake surface. allow to dry.
>if that's not good enough, dribble masonary sand onto the 'prep'

Don't the trials guys rub tar onto their rims for that sort of squawking
skidding faceplant sort of grabbiness?

Ron

[A Muzi]

ebolaxmonkey@gmail.com wrote:
> Well, we went and bought some new pads today (koolstop BMX pads) and
> they are working better. Not enough stopping power to endo, but a lot
> more than before. The new pads are surely better quality, and are
> almost twice the length of the original ones. I'm going to give him
> some time on it now. At least a couple weeks to see if things improve,
> or get worse. If they get worse I'll replace the cable bypassing the
> rotor, then if that's no good replace the whole setup (lever/brake/
> cable).
>
> For now though it seems to be working well enough. I basically knew
> where this was heading, but needed to get some more experienced
> opinions to let me know I didn't miss something.
>
> Again, Thanks for all the replies!!

Glad that worked out and for a mere $10 too!

Pad length is immaterial - long, short, whatever - it's all about 'swept
area'.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Rotors can work well, often with a new not-yet-kinked-and-rusted cable
> set* which are very available and cheap. At any rate, he got the rear set
> up satisfactorily. The front's where his troubles lie and rotors aren't
> used for fronts.

But can you tell me why, in an era where manufacturers are so concerned
about lawsuits they won't use quick releases on kids bikes anymore, they
don't have a clip that goes around the rotor so the brake cables can't pop
out of their slots when loose? That's always seemed a bit odd to me. I've
seen a few designs where the cables are completely captured, but those are
rarely used.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:13choecimn514a8@corp.supernews.com...
>>> ebolaxmon...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> My first post, so I guess I should introduce myself. I am a casual
>>>> MTBR who has been riding for a long time, so I have a fairly decent
>>>> grasp on bike mechanics. I've assembled my own, and maintain all of
>>>> the bikes in the house.
>>>>
>>>> Anywho, I just bought my son his first 20" bike; a diamondback
>>>> freestyle bike. The purchase was spontaneous as ****'s sporting goods
>>>> had it on clearance.
>>>>
>>>> The back U-brakes work great. Locking up the rear is no problem for my
>>>> little guy. The front side-pull however is terrible.
>>>>
>>>> The front brake just will not stop the bike in less than 30 feet at 5
>>>> mph or so. I tried adjusting the cable, then disassembled the whole
>>>> thing, and greased/oiled everything, and sanded the brakepads. It
>>>> stopped better, but barely. I then greased the cable. Right? Wrong?
>>>> Matter of opinion? who knows. It worked better, but still pretty bad.
>>>> I can stop on the bike as can my wife but it's far from good. THe only
>>>> thing left that I can think of is to buy better pads, but I don't
>>>> think that's the solution.
>>>> Is there something I'm missing here?
>>>> It's been a long time since I've had side pull brakes (mid 80's) but I
>>>> remember being able to "endo" using hand brakes back then. I don't
>>>> want the fronts to grab instantly of course sending him over the
>>>> handlebars, but I do want him to have both brakes working properly.
>>>> This is also his first bike with no coaster brakes.
>>>> Any advice would be great, and greatly appreciated.
>
>> Nate Knutson wrote:
>>> It is this bike, right?
>>> http://www.diamondbackbmx.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=225
>
> Mark wrote:
>> Hope not, for the OP's sake. The bike in the URL appears to have the
>> funky headset cable device that allows one to spin the handlebars 360
>> degrees without binding the cables. I've worked on a few of those for
>> the neighborhood kids and can attest that they (the cable devices, not
>> the kids) are the work of the devil. Kludgy at best, they could be the
>> cause of the trouble.
>
> Rotors can work well, often with a new not-yet-kinked-and-rusted cable
> set* which are very available and cheap. At any rate, he got the rear set
> up satisfactorily. The front's where his troubles lie and rotors aren't
> used for fronts.
> *Rotor cables can't be disassembled for lubrication like normal brake
> cables so do always work oil into them before installation.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Nate Knutson]

On Aug 19, 9:14 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> > Detanglers can only affect the stopping power of the front brake by
> > way of adding friction to the front brake cable/housing. That can be
> > significant but the op has said that he's got the cable feel pretty
> > smooth at this point.
>
> Experience in the real world says otherwise. It's the convoluted routing
> the cable takes on its way to the underside of the brake (on the front) that
> causes problems. That plus...

Experience in the real world says what otherwise? I've assembled,
sold, and serviced many bikes with detanglers and front and rear
brakes, including at least a couple previous model years of this bike.
As I said, friction generated by the cable can decrease performance as
it takes energy to overcome the friction. There's also the possibility
of an overly sharp bend/curve causing the housing to get spread apart.
Smart cable/housing setup and/or using a fancy braided/coated cable
set mitigates both problems. Do the front brakes on these setups often
suck? Yes, of course, but how many are set up well, ever?

The other thing about this is that the cable routing isn't actually
that funky or convoluted on these setups at all. It's just that there
are a few different ways to set it up so that the bends in the housing
are way too sharp, and it's a somewhat common mistake. The main
trouble spot is having too short of a loop between the cable guide on
the fork and the brake.

> > Bikes with detanglers and both front and rear brakes do use 2 levers.
> > The front brake cable is routed through a hollow topcap bolt, down the
> > inside of the steerer, out the bottom, and looped around to connect to
> > the brake.
>
> ... the bike in question, as seen in the link provided elsewhere, shows just
> one brake lever. That means they're using a splitter, so your rotor is
> affecting both front & rear brakes, not just the rear.

http://www.diamondbackbmx.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=225

It's a side shot; you just can't really see the left lever. Use of
splitters like you're talking about is not something that commonly
exists in this realm of bikes.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> ... the bike in question, as seen in the link provided elsewhere, shows
>> just
>> one brake lever. That means they're using a splitter, so your rotor is
>> affecting both front & rear brakes, not just the rear.
>
> http://www.diamondbackbmx.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=225
>
> It's a side shot; you just can't really see the left lever. Use of
> splitters like you're talking about is not something that commonly
> exists in this realm of bikes.

Looking at the photo again, it's possible that there are two brake levers.
However, it also looks like there is an in-line splitter shown. Heaven
forbid that it's not actually an in-line splitter but rather one of those
awful gadgets designed to keep you from being able to apply enough power to
lock your front brake. On the other hand, if it did have one of those awful
gadgets, at least the fix (for improving braking power) is simple- just
remove it.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Nate Knutson" <bikenate@riseup.net> wrote in message
news:1187585030.134926.176950@q4g2000prc.googlegro ups.com...
> On Aug 19, 9:14 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>> > Detanglers can only affect the stopping power of the front brake by
>> > way of adding friction to the front brake cable/housing. That can be
>> > significant but the op has said that he's got the cable feel pretty
>> > smooth at this point.
>>
>> Experience in the real world says otherwise. It's the convoluted routing
>> the cable takes on its way to the underside of the brake (on the front)
>> that
>> causes problems. That plus...
>
> Experience in the real world says what otherwise? I've assembled,
> sold, and serviced many bikes with detanglers and front and rear
> brakes, including at least a couple previous model years of this bike.
> As I said, friction generated by the cable can decrease performance as
> it takes energy to overcome the friction. There's also the possibility
> of an overly sharp bend/curve causing the housing to get spread apart.
> Smart cable/housing setup and/or using a fancy braided/coated cable
> set mitigates both problems. Do the front brakes on these setups often
> suck? Yes, of course, but how many are set up well, ever?
>
> The other thing about this is that the cable routing isn't actually
> that funky or convoluted on these setups at all. It's just that there
> are a few different ways to set it up so that the bends in the housing
> are way too sharp, and it's a somewhat common mistake. The main
> trouble spot is having too short of a loop between the cable guide on
> the fork and the brake.
>
>> > Bikes with detanglers and both front and rear brakes do use 2 levers.
>> > The front brake cable is routed through a hollow topcap bolt, down the
>> > inside of the steerer, out the bottom, and looped around to connect to
>> > the brake.
>>
>> ... the bike in question, as seen in the link provided elsewhere, shows
>> just
>> one brake lever. That means they're using a splitter, so your rotor is
>> affecting both front & rear brakes, not just the rear.
>
> http://www.diamondbackbmx.com/items.asp?deptid=2&itemid=225
>
> It's a side shot; you just can't really see the left lever. Use of
> splitters like you're talking about is not something that commonly
> exists in this realm of bikes.
>

[Nate Knutson]

> Looking at the photo again, it's possible that there are two brake levers.
> However, it also looks like there is an in-line splitter shown. Heaven
> forbid that it's not actually an in-line splitter but rather one of those
> awful gadgets designed to keep you from being able to apply enough power to
> lock your front brake. On the other hand, if it did have one of those awful
> gadgets, at least the fix (for improving braking power) is simple- just
> remove it.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Yes, it has a splitter, the same type of setup that all the millions
of bikes with detanglers have for their rear brakes, other than higher-
end/customized ones with systems like an Odyssey modulever.

The right brake lever pulls a short length of cable inside a housing
that terminates in the spitter. Then attached integrally to the
splitter is another cable with 2 ends that exit it, or maybe in some
cases 2 seperate cables, each of which run through their own housing
lengths and adjusters, and terminate with special ball ends. Each of
these runs through the upper plate, into which the adjusters are
threaded, and the ball ends pull on the upper "bearing" part of the
detangler.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Yes, it has a splitter, the same type of setup that all the millions
> of bikes with detanglers have for their rear brakes, other than higher-
> end/customized ones with systems like an Odyssey modulever.

I meant that it might have had a splitter of the type that allows the use of
one brake lever for two brakes. As you note, rotors in general have a
splitter (which you call a detangler... why? Our BMX folk would cringe if I
called it that... after all, why use a term that describes what it actually
does?). Or am I further removed from that scene than I thought, and "rotor"
isn't used anymore?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Nate Knutson" <bikenate@riseup.net> wrote in message
news:1187587058.749299.200610@x40g2000prg.googlegr oups.com...
>> Looking at the photo again, it's possible that there are two brake
>> levers.
>> However, it also looks like there is an in-line splitter shown. Heaven
>> forbid that it's not actually an in-line splitter but rather one of those
>> awful gadgets designed to keep you from being able to apply enough power
>> to
>> lock your front brake. On the other hand, if it did have one of those
>> awful
>> gadgets, at least the fix (for improving braking power) is simple- just
>> remove it.
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> Yes, it has a splitter, the same type of setup that all the millions
> of bikes with detanglers have for their rear brakes, other than higher-
> end/customized ones with systems like an Odyssey modulever.
>
> The right brake lever pulls a short length of cable inside a housing
> that terminates in the spitter. Then attached integrally to the
> splitter is another cable with 2 ends that exit it, or maybe in some
> cases 2 seperate cables, each of which run through their own housing
> lengths and adjusters, and terminate with special ball ends. Each of
> these runs through the upper plate, into which the adjusters are
> threaded, and the ball ends pull on the upper "bearing" part of the
> detangler.
>

[Chalo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> As you note, rotors in general have a
> splitter (which you call a detangler... why? Our BMX folk would cringe if I
> called it that... after all, why use a term that describes what it actually
> does?). Or am I further removed from that scene than I thought, and "rotor"
> isn't used anymore?

Empire BMX (a mail-order house located here in Austin) and Dan's
Competition (of Indiana) both use the term "detangler" to refer to the
whole apparatus, if they are not using somebody's trade name. "Rotor"
was the model name for the detangler made by ACS. It looked nicer
than the "Gyro" made by Odyssey, but it didn't sell as well. The only
one of the two names I personally have heard used in the generic sense
is "gyro".

Chalo

[Nate Knutson]

On Aug 20, 12:19 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> > Yes, it has a splitter, the same type of setup that all the millions
> > of bikes with detanglers have for their rear brakes, other than higher-
> > end/customized ones with systems like an Odyssey modulever.
>
> I meant that it might have had a splitter of the type that allows the use of
> one brake lever for two brakes. As you note, rotors in general have a
> splitter (which you call a detangler... why? Our BMX folk would cringe if I
> called it that... after all, why use a term that describes what it actually
> does?). Or am I further removed from that scene than I thought, and "rotor"
> isn't used anymore?

I know what you mean. What I've been saying is that the "one lever on
2 brakes" thing isn't something that actually exists in BMX, other
than maybe the way it's sometimes used for folks with one working
hand, which I believe uses a different type of splitter even.

I use the term detangler because "rotor," as Chalo said, is a model
name and is also what brake discs are called, plus detanglers are
never popularly called "rotors" in my area. "Gyro" is what everyone
does call them, but that also has the possibility for confusion
because all of Odyssey's detanglers have "Gyro" in the model name, so
it's kinda the same situation as "v-brakes." So I use "detangler"
because it's the most accurate thing. I don't, however, use "linear
pull brakes," because it's too much to bother with in passing.