Catridge bearing headset

[Rik O'Shea]

Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
bearing headset ?

Thanks & regards

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 7, 3:45 am, Rik O'Shea <rikos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
> bearing headset ?
>
> Thanks & regards

Cart bearinmgs are just little units that consist of ball bearings, a
'cone' or inner race and a 'cup' or outer race..but the basic concept
is the same as loose ball type headsets(or hubs or bottom brackets) so
yes, you can pit a cart bearing HS.

[jim beam]

Rik O'Shea wrote:
> Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
> bearing headset ?
>
> Thanks & regards
>

"pitted" like corrosion or "pitted" like brinelling?

answer is "yes" on both, but regarding the latter, the sealed bearing is
usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
time line compared to traditional headsets.

do you have a specific instance you want to discuss?

[A Muzi]

Rik O'Shea wrote:
> Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
> bearing headset ?

Commonly.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[NickP]

Yes, that can happen. It happened to the Deore XT headset on my Bike Friday.
As an initial fix attempt, I just swapped the top and bottom bearings, and
could no longer notice the problem - and still can't notice it several years
later. The replacement set of bearings that I ordered at the time is still
sitting in a drawer waiting to be used...

"Rik O'Shea" <rikoshea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189158347.865158.213920@y42g2000hsy.googlegr oups.com...
>
> Is it possible to experience a pitted headset with a sealed catridge
> bearing headset ?
>
> Thanks & regards
>

[M-gineering]

jim beam wrote:
> the sealed bearing is
> usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
> and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
> resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
> time line compared to traditional headsets.

In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
under the guarantee ;)

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[jim beam]

M-gineering wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> the sealed bearing is usually a quality bearing steel which resists
>> true brinelling better, and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed
>> against contaminant to resist false brinelling and wear - so the
>> process is pushed way out the time line compared to traditional headsets.
>
> In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
> of sufficient grease.

cheapo bearing like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/
can indeed be a problem for seals. but good bearings have good seals
and that doesn't happen.

> If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
> expect a longer bearing life.

my mavic cosmos wheels with sealed bearings have been a good deal better
in the rain than my shimano wheels on the same commute. in fact, i
haven't had to touch them in 4 winters.


> Modern headsets or crankbearings which
> rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
> three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
> under the guarantee ;)

so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 7, 9:47 am, M-gineering <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
> > the sealed bearing is
> > usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
> > and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
> > resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
> > time line compared to traditional headsets.
>
> In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
> of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
> expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
> rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
> three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
> under the guarantee ;)
>
> --
> /Marten
>
> info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

'Should be called 'cartridge bearings', not 'sealed cartridge
bearings'. Easier(cheaper) to make the hub, for instance, w/o a race
for bearings, just a little shelf for the bearing and no need to worry
about the quality of the bearing/cone/cup parts...THEN marketeers get
ahold of it and 'sell' the cyclist on all it's 'advantages'...like so
much else 'bicycle'. Interesting that all the hubbub about ceramic, to
make this BB or that 'smoother' and easier turning, none of which
approach the ease of movement of a well made cup and ball...marketinmg
marches on......

[Doug Taylor]

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:47:31 +0200, M-gineering
<ikmotgeenspam@m-gineering.nl> wrote:


>In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
>of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
>expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
>rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
>three months.

You are correct: Sealed cartridge bearing seals are NOT watertight,
whether the seals are steel or rubber. But most headset and outboard
bottom bracket bearings have rubber seals, which, unlike the steel
ones (which are often used in hubs and pedals BTW) are removable. If
you get soaked on a ride, and are concerned that water has penetrated
both your headset rubber O-ring or crank covers, as well as the
bearing seals (that's two layers of protection), you can remove the
headset or crank, remove the cartridges, pop off the rubber bearing
covers, clean and grease the bearings, then pop the cover back on.

Inline speed skaters never use bearings with steel covers because
there is no cover or layer between the wheel and the bearings: they
are exposed. So if you skate in the rain, water is guaranteed to get
into the bearings, and you either clean and grease them immediately,
or throw them away.

Word to the wise to 2008 Madone owners: your top headset bearing is
covered by a spacer only - no rubber O-ring as in with a traditional
headset - and your crank bearing have NO covers at all. They are
therefore exposed and you are in the same boat as an inliner. If you
get soaked, both your headset bearings and your bb bearing will have
to be cleaned or they will be toast. If they are ceramic, they won't
be toast, but they will not be well lubricated.

[Jambo]

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:M5idneoFALBan3_bnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> M-gineering wrote:
>> Modern headsets or crankbearings which rely on the bearing seal instead
>> of a decent labyrinth can be toast in three months. But that is no
>> problem as bearings are usually not covered under the guarantee ;)
>
> so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on crank,
> wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

Because you made it up. Just so you can be contrary.

****tard.

[M-gineering]

jim beam wrote:

> so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
> crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

n=1 isn't data

Maybe US types don't have PROPER [tm] rain. I know I have to be stocked
up on bearings by april for when the racers start coming in with the
latest cool stuff
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[Bill]

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:M5idneoFALBan3_bnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> M-gineering wrote:
> > jim beam wrote:
> >> the sealed bearing is usually a quality bearing steel which resists
> >> true brinelling better, and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed
> >> against contaminant to resist false brinelling and wear - so the
> >> process is pushed way out the time line compared to traditional
headsets.
> >
> > In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
> > of sufficient grease.
>
> cheapo bearing like this:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/
> can indeed be a problem for seals. but good bearings have good seals
> and that doesn't happen.
>
> > If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
> > expect a longer bearing life.
>
> my mavic cosmos wheels with sealed bearings have been a good deal better
> in the rain than my shimano wheels on the same commute. in fact, i
> haven't had to touch them in 4 winters.
>
>
> > Modern headsets or crankbearings which
> > rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
> > three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
> > under the guarantee ;)
>
> so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
> crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.

Have to agree with Jim here. My Mavic Expert wheels with FTS hubs have at
least 35,000 miles on them. Original bearings, back ones are due for
replacement, there is a little lateral play that can't be adjusted out. Both
front and rear are smooth. I pull the cassette body every couple of years
and clean and lube the pawls. It is still smooth. Never touched the
bearings, just ridden a lot in loads of awful weather over the years.
Good cartridges are for riding, on and on and on.................
Bill

[jim beam]

Jambo wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:M5idneoFALBan3_bnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> M-gineering wrote:
>>> Modern headsets or crankbearings which rely on the bearing seal instead
>>> of a decent labyrinth can be toast in three months. But that is no
>>> problem as bearings are usually not covered under the guarantee ;)
>> so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on crank,
>> wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.
>
> Because you made it up. Just so you can be contrary.
>
> ****tard.

er, the stupidity contest is back there with the definition of "modulus"
in the other thread.

[jim beam]

M-gineering wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> so why haven't my bearings failed then? i have sealed bearings on
>> crank, wheels and headset. and i ride in the pissing rain in winter.
>
> n=1 isn't data
>
> Maybe US types don't have PROPER [tm] rain.

i guess it doesn't count as "rain" if it never hits the ground, just
travels sideways?


> I know I have to be stocked
> up on bearings by april for when the racers start coming in with the
> latest cool stuff

[jim beam]

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
> On Sep 7, 9:47 am, M-gineering <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> the sealed bearing is
>>> usually a quality bearing steel which resists true brinelling better,
>>> and contains sufficient clean lubricant sealed against contaminant to
>>> resist false brinelling and wear - so the process is pushed way out the
>>> time line compared to traditional headsets.
>> In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
>> of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
>> expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
>> rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
>> three months. But that is no problem as bearings are usually not covered
>> under the guarantee ;)
>>
>> --
>> /Marten
>>
>> info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
>
> 'Should be called 'cartridge bearings', not 'sealed cartridge
> bearings'. Easier(cheaper) to make the hub, for instance, w/o a race
> for bearings, just a little shelf for the bearing and no need to worry
> about the quality of the bearing/cone/cup parts...THEN marketeers get
> ahold of it and 'sell' the cyclist on all it's 'advantages'...like so
> much else 'bicycle'. Interesting that all the hubbub about ceramic, to
> make this BB or that 'smoother' and easier turning, none of which
> approach the ease of movement of a well made cup and ball...marketinmg
> marches on......
>
>

of course, ceramics!!! marten, use ceramics. they don't rust. no problem.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 8, 6:07 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:47:31 +0200, M-gineering
>
> <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
> >In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
> >of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
> >expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
> >rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
> >three months.
>
> You are correct: Sealed cartridge bearing seals are NOT watertight,
> whether the seals are steel or rubber. But most headset and outboard
> bottom bracket bearings have rubber seals, which, unlike the steel
> ones (which are often used in hubs and pedals BTW) are removable. If
> you get soaked on a ride, and are concerned that water has penetrated
> both your headset rubber O-ring or crank covers, as well as the
> bearing seals (that's two layers of protection), you can remove the
> headset or crank, remove the cartridges, pop off the rubber bearing
> covers, clean and grease the bearings, then pop the cover back on.
>
> Inline speed skaters never use bearings with steel covers because
> there is no cover or layer between the wheel and the bearings: they
> are exposed. So if you skate in the rain, water is guaranteed to get
> into the bearings, and you either clean and grease them immediately,
> or throw them away.
>
> Word to the wise to 2008 Madone owners: your top headset bearing is
> covered by a spacer only - no rubber O-ring as in with a traditional
> headset - and your crank bearing have NO covers at all. They are
> therefore exposed and you are in the same boat as an inliner. If you
> get soaked, both your headset bearings and your bb bearing will have
> to be cleaned or they will be toast. If they are ceramic, they won't
> be toast, but they will not be well lubricated.

Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

[jim beam]

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
> On Sep 8, 6:07 pm, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:47:31 +0200, M-gineering
>>
>> <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
>>> In my experience the seal works to keep water in and prevent the usage
>>> of sufficient grease. If you do any mileage in the rain I wouldn't
>>> expect a longer bearing life. Modern headsets or crankbearings which
>>> rely on the bearing seal instead of a decent labyrinth can be toast in
>>> three months.
>> You are correct: Sealed cartridge bearing seals are NOT watertight,
>> whether the seals are steel or rubber. But most headset and outboard
>> bottom bracket bearings have rubber seals, which, unlike the steel
>> ones (which are often used in hubs and pedals BTW) are removable. If
>> you get soaked on a ride, and are concerned that water has penetrated
>> both your headset rubber O-ring or crank covers, as well as the
>> bearing seals (that's two layers of protection), you can remove the
>> headset or crank, remove the cartridges, pop off the rubber bearing
>> covers, clean and grease the bearings, then pop the cover back on.
>>
>> Inline speed skaters never use bearings with steel covers because
>> there is no cover or layer between the wheel and the bearings: they
>> are exposed. So if you skate in the rain, water is guaranteed to get
>> into the bearings, and you either clean and grease them immediately,
>> or throw them away.
>>
>> Word to the wise to 2008 Madone owners: your top headset bearing is
>> covered by a spacer only - no rubber O-ring as in with a traditional
>> headset - and your crank bearing have NO covers at all. They are
>> therefore exposed and you are in the same boat as an inliner. If you
>> get soaked, both your headset bearings and your bb bearing will have
>> to be cleaned or they will be toast. If they are ceramic, they won't
>> be toast, but they will not be well lubricated.
>
> Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
> cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.
>
those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
[and /very/ expensive].

[Doug Taylor]

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:27:57 -0700, "Qui si parla
Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:


>Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
>cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.

Unless they are stainless steel:

http://www.vxb.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=bearings&Product_Code=Kit7173&Category_Code=

Fits FSA external bb

[Doug Taylor]

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:07:39 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:


>> Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
>> cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.
>>
>those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
>[and /very/ expensive].

Fits FSA external bb:

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 9, 8:53 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:07:39 -0700, jim beam
>
> <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
> >> cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.
>
> >those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
> >[and /very/ expensive].
>
> Fits FSA external bb:
>
> http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611

'low' price $139.....need 2, of course..or just buy a crank and BB and
then use the rest to go to dinner and a movie.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Sep 9, 4:35 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> On Sep 9, 8:53 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:07:39 -0700, jim beam
>
> > <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> > >> Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
> > >> cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.
>
> > >those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
> > >[and /very/ expensive].
>
> > Fits FSA external bb:
>
> >http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611
>
> 'low' price $139.....need 2, of course..or just buy a crank and BB and
> then use the rest to go to dinner and a movie.

Or, if yer really worried about water damage to your BB, open the
wallet and spring for a Phil Wood BB and an appropriate crank. Problem
solved.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 9, 4:19 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Sep 9, 4:35 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
>
>
>
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 9, 8:53 am, Doug Taylor <dtay...@dreamscape.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:07:39 -0700, jim beam
>
> > > <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> > > >> Remember all that is ceramic are the bearing balls, not the cups or
> > > >> cone, whiich are steel and will get pitted, or rusted.
>
> > > >those are ceramic "hybrid" bearings. full ceramics are also available
> > > >[and /very/ expensive].
>
> > > Fits FSA external bb:
>
> > >http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/FullCeramicBearings/Kit7611
>
> > 'low' price $139.....need 2, of course..or just buy a crank and BB and
> > then use the rest to go to dinner and a movie.
>
> Or, if yer really worried about water damage to your BB, open the
> wallet and spring for a Phil Wood BB and an appropriate crank. Problem
> solved.

Have a Phil on my wet weather Merckx, a 1986 cup and ball on my dry
Merckx.