Keeping water bottle cold

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

I discovered something entirely by accident that might be of use to others.
How to keep a frozen water bottle... frozen.

Rocket science it isn't.

When riding with my son, I carry quite a bit of extra water, in a rack-top
bag. What I'll often do is freeze a couple of bottles overnight, but they
would thaw out very quickly. But another time I had to use my camera
backpack, and to make sure the bottle didn't drip into the bag (Cytomax
wouldn't be good for camera gear), I wrapped the bottles with no more than
two layers of paper towels, and put them into a gallon-sized sealed baggie.

Amazingly, 7 hours later and the contents were still 80-90% frozen. Tried
the same experiment in the rack top bag, same thing again. Nearly totally
frozen bottles at the end of a long ride (yeah, sounds like I brought too
much stuff to drink!).

I haven't yet tried just wrapping one up and putting it into a regular
bottle cage, so don't know yet if that would work as well. Could be that
there's some insulative qualities to the bags which makes the difference
(even though bottles without any paper towels wrapped around them and placed
into a baggie thawed out very quickly). The easiest experiment might be to
just prepare one and leave it on the counter at home and see what happens in
a day.

It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
cold!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[landotter]

On Sep 10, 1:37 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> cold!
>

Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On 2007-09-10, Mike Jacoubowsky <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> cold!

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooling>

It's the same effect as wrapping your neck in a wet cloth [1]; as the
water in the cloth evaporates, it takes heat with it. You should be able to
wrap your bottles in any wet cloth, baggie or no, and see the same effect.


[1] For that matter, it's the same principle that makes sweating effective.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com
(_)/ (_)

[Zog The Undeniable]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> I discovered something entirely by accident that might be of use to others.
> How to keep a frozen water bottle... frozen.
>
> Rocket science it isn't.
>
> When riding with my son, I carry quite a bit of extra water, in a rack-top
> bag. What I'll often do is freeze a couple of bottles overnight, but they
> would thaw out very quickly. But another time I had to use my camera
> backpack, and to make sure the bottle didn't drip into the bag (Cytomax
> wouldn't be good for camera gear), I wrapped the bottles with no more than
> two layers of paper towels, and put them into a gallon-sized sealed baggie.
>
> Amazingly, 7 hours later and the contents were still 80-90% frozen. Tried
> the same experiment in the rack top bag, same thing again. Nearly totally
> frozen bottles at the end of a long ride (yeah, sounds like I brought too
> much stuff to drink!).
>
> I haven't yet tried just wrapping one up and putting it into a regular
> bottle cage, so don't know yet if that would work as well. Could be that
> there's some insulative qualities to the bags which makes the difference
> (even though bottles without any paper towels wrapped around them and placed
> into a baggie thawed out very quickly). The easiest experiment might be to
> just prepare one and leave it on the counter at home and see what happens in
> a day.
>
> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> cold!

<old roadie tale alert>

About 15 years ago when we still had proper winters in the English
Midlands, the club run went to a cafe/old manor house out in the sticks.
It was well below zero all the way (a lung-burning -10 deg C), and
when we got there there was a roaring fire. Everyone removed their
shoes and put them in front of the fire to warm up, along with hats and
gloves.

After the tea and cake, we reluctantly went outside again to find that
all our water bottles had frozen solid. It had probably only been the
motion that had stopped them freezing before.

I had my only ever spoke failure (albeit on a cheap machine built wheel)
5 miles from home, and another rider broke a crank. I wonder if the
cold had any hand in it.

[Michael Press]

In article
<9D5Fi.3717$7P7.79@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> I discovered something entirely by accident that might be of use to others.
> How to keep a frozen water bottle... frozen.
>
> Rocket science it isn't.
>
> When riding with my son, I carry quite a bit of extra water, in a rack-top
> bag. What I'll often do is freeze a couple of bottles overnight, but they
> would thaw out very quickly. But another time I had to use my camera
> backpack, and to make sure the bottle didn't drip into the bag (Cytomax
> wouldn't be good for camera gear), I wrapped the bottles with no more than
> two layers of paper towels, and put them into a gallon-sized sealed baggie.
>
> Amazingly, 7 hours later and the contents were still 80-90% frozen. Tried
> the same experiment in the rack top bag, same thing again. Nearly totally
> frozen bottles at the end of a long ride (yeah, sounds like I brought too
> much stuff to drink!).
>
> I haven't yet tried just wrapping one up and putting it into a regular
> bottle cage, so don't know yet if that would work as well. Could be that
> there's some insulative qualities to the bags which makes the difference
> (even though bottles without any paper towels wrapped around them and placed
> into a baggie thawed out very quickly). The easiest experiment might be to
> just prepare one and leave it on the counter at home and see what happens in
> a day.
>
> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> cold!

Three principle modes of heat transfer

* Convection
* Conduction
* Radiation

This is is in order of descending rate of heat transfer
in a configuration that optimizes the mode. For instance
radiation is optimized in the high desert at night where
the heat can radiate directly into interstellar space.
(This is also why frost can form when the air temperature
is above the freezing point of water. The dew is coupled
to a heat bath well below freezing: outer space.)

Keeping the bottles out of the wind is the winner, as
it takes convection out of the heat transfer business.
Ice is an enormous heat sink.

--
Michael Press

[velodancer]

On Sep 9, 11:37 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I discovered something entirely by accident that might be of use to others.
> How to keep a frozen water bottle... frozen.

You've just discovered the principle of insulation! In your case, it
is the same action as a thermos bottle, a dead air space. You probably
have double glazed windows at home for the same reason.

For what it is worth, the others are wrong about evaporative cooling
in your case. On of the key parts to your design is the plastic bag.
That keeps the dead air space dead (not circulating environmental
temperature at road speed) and eliminates any evaporative cooling
(unless you place a wet rag over the plastic bag).

[Just A User]

landotter wrote:
> On Sep 10, 1:37 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
>> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
>> cold!
>>
>
> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
> 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>
>
Are you speaking from first hand experience? J.K.

But that is an interesting trick I will have to try that next long ride.
Even short rides here and the frozen bottles melt in just a bit. The
last time I tried to freeze a bottle I think it lasted about an hour or so.

[Ben C]

On 2007-09-10, Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2007-09-10, Mike Jacoubowsky <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
>> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
>> cold!
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooling>
>
> It's the same effect as wrapping your neck in a wet cloth [1]; as the
> water in the cloth evaporates, it takes heat with it. You should be able to
> wrap your bottles in any wet cloth, baggie or no, and see the same effect.

In my mental image, the paper towels were dry, and therefore, in
conjunction with the bag, trapping air (a good insulator). If you made
them wet there'd be a continuous conductive layer of water between the
bottle and the inside of the plastic bag. The bag would stop water
evaporating, and the whole thing would warm up.

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Sep 10, 10:48 am, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 1:37 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> >> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> >> cold!
>
> > Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
> > 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>
> Are you speaking from first hand experience? J.K.
>
> But that is an interesting trick I will have to try that next long ride.
> Even short rides here and the frozen bottles melt in just a bit. The
> last time I tried to freeze a bottle I think it lasted about an hour or so.

You bring 40's on your long rides? Switch to nips bro, all that
weight in glass is silly. :-P

Seriously, good looks Mike, I'll try that out.

[Bill Sornson]

>> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
>> 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.

That's what Al Gore does on his 1970's era Gulfstream! LOL

[Just A User]

DanKMTB@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 10, 10:48 am, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
>> landotter wrote:
>>> On Sep 10, 1:37 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
>>>> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
>>>> cold!
>>> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
>>> 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>> Are you speaking from first hand experience? J.K.
>>
>> But that is an interesting trick I will have to try that next long ride.
>> Even short rides here and the frozen bottles melt in just a bit. The
>> last time I tried to freeze a bottle I think it lasted about an hour or so.
>
> You bring 40's on your long rides? Switch to nips bro, all that
> weight in glass is silly. :-P
>
> Seriously, good looks Mike, I'll try that out.
>

No I usually do the vodka OJ thing on my rides. Mix it right up in the
bottles works pretty well. But seriously I have seen many bikes with
beer can wedged into bottle cages.

I read about this many years ago.The paper towel would get wet from the
bottles sweating and some how this helps insulate them'
In a MT Bike mag one time it said to do the same with a piece of wet cloth
around a water bottle the evaporation makes the inside cooler.
Can't remember where I read it.

--
J/O TrailBlazer V P At Large !!

[landotter]

On Sep 10, 10:55 am, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
> DanK...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 10:48 am, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
> >> landotter wrote:
> >>> On Sep 10, 1:37 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>>> It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> >>>> much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> >>>> cold!
> >>> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
> >>> 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
> >> Are you speaking from first hand experience? J.K.
>
> >> But that is an interesting trick I will have to try that next long ride.
> >> Even short rides here and the frozen bottles melt in just a bit. The
> >> last time I tried to freeze a bottle I think it lasted about an hour or so.
>
> > You bring 40's on your long rides? Switch to nips bro, all that
> > weight in glass is silly. :-P

Like ceramic is any better?
http://www.tackytreasures.com/tackyhtml/tackyimages/breastmug-3397.jpg

>
> > Seriously, good looks Mike, I'll try that out.
>
> No I usually do the vodka OJ thing on my rides. Mix it right up in the
> bottles works pretty well. But seriously I have seen many bikes with
> beer can wedged into bottle cages.

I want one of those handlebar gimbal mounts with the foamie cozy! Add
beer and a handful of peanuts, and you got carbs, and electrolytes!

[smokeystrodtman@gmail.com]

On Sep 10, 11:07 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> >> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
> >> 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>
> That's what Al Gore does on his 1970's era Gulfstream! LOL

Not trying to start anything, but I'm just curious. Is this the same
Bill Sornson that in a post just a few days ago claimed he is never
the first one to inject politics into a thread on another subject?

Smokey

[mark@drumbent.com]

On Sep 10, 3:25 pm, Zog The Undeniable <hrothga...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > I discovered something entirely by accident that might be of use to others.
> > How to keep a frozen water bottle... frozen.
>
> > Rocket science it isn't.
>
> > When riding with my son, I carry quite a bit of extra water, in a rack-top
> > bag. What I'll often do is freeze a couple of bottles overnight, but they
> > would thaw out very quickly. But another time I had to use my camera
> > backpack, and to make sure the bottle didn't drip into the bag (Cytomax
> > wouldn't be good for camera gear), I wrapped the bottles with no more than
> > two layers of paper towels, and put them into a gallon-sized sealed baggie.
>
> > Amazingly, 7 hours later and the contents were still 80-90% frozen. Tried
> > the same experiment in the rack top bag, same thing again. Nearly totally
> > frozen bottles at the end of a long ride (yeah, sounds like I brought too
> > much stuff to drink!).
>
> > I haven't yet tried just wrapping one up and putting it into a regular
> > bottle cage, so don't know yet if that would work as well. Could be that
> > there's some insulative qualities to the bags which makes the difference
> > (even though bottles without any paper towels wrapped around them and placed
> > into a baggie thawed out very quickly). The easiest experiment might be to
> > just prepare one and leave it on the counter at home and see what happens in
> > a day.
>
> > It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> > much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> > cold!
>
> <old roadie tale alert>
>
> About 15 years ago when we still had proper winters in the English
> Midlands, the club run went to a cafe/old manor house out in the sticks.
> It was well below zero all the way (a lung-burning -10 deg C), and
> when we got there there was a roaring fire. Everyone removed their
> shoes and put them in front of the fire to warm up, along with hats and
> gloves.
>
> After the tea and cake, we reluctantly went outside again to find that
> all our water bottles had frozen solid. It had probably only been the
> motion that had stopped them freezing before.
>
> I had my only ever spoke failure (albeit on a cheap machine built wheel)
> 5 miles from home, and another rider broke a crank. I wonder if the
> cold had any hand in it.


Here in Ottawa we still have Real Winters, though like most places not
as extreme as they once were. But we do get those occasional cold
February days where the high is -20C and the low -30C. I ride in all
winter conditions except for freezing rain and heavy snowfall, and
actually prefer a dry -20C over a slushy wet -2C (since staying warm
is usually easier than staying dry). I've only had plastic parts like
fenders snap due to the cold, though I've heard of cases like yours
where cranks or other highly stressed metal parts give out.

As for icing up, I've skated on the Rideau Canal here many times and
have had my water bottle freeze up, even though I was in motion! It
of course did not freeze solid, and skating is pretty gentle and the
bottle was cradled in a side pouch on my knapsack, but an hour of that
at -15C can still create a plug of ice that surprises when one goes to
have a drink!

Mark

[mike.a.schwab@gmail.com]

On Sep 10, 6:03 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <9D5Fi.3717$7P7...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>,
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I discovered something entirely by accident that might be of use to others.
> > How to keep a frozen water bottle... frozen.
>
> > Rocket science it isn't.
>
> > When riding with my son, I carry quite a bit of extra water, in a rack-top
> > bag. What I'll often do is freeze a couple of bottles overnight, but they
> > would thaw out very quickly. But another time I had to use my camera
> > backpack, and to make sure the bottle didn't drip into the bag (Cytomax
> > wouldn't be good for camera gear), I wrapped the bottles with no more than
> > two layers of paper towels, and put them into a gallon-sized sealed baggie.
>
> > Amazingly, 7 hours later and the contents were still 80-90% frozen. Tried
> > the same experiment in the rack top bag, same thing again. Nearly totally
> > frozen bottles at the end of a long ride (yeah, sounds like I brought too
> > much stuff to drink!).
>
> > I haven't yet tried just wrapping one up and putting it into a regular
> > bottle cage, so don't know yet if that would work as well. Could be that
> > there's some insulative qualities to the bags which makes the difference
> > (even though bottles without any paper towels wrapped around them and placed
> > into a baggie thawed out very quickly). The easiest experiment might be to
> > just prepare one and leave it on the counter at home and see what happens in
> > a day.
>
> > It seems absurdly simple. Why it works is up to someone here to tell me. So
> > much for the idea you need to buy a special insulated bottle to keep things
> > cold!
>
> Three principle modes of heat transfer
>
> * Convection
> * Conduction
> * Radiation
>
> This is is in order of descending rate of heat transfer
> in a configuration that optimizes the mode. For instance
> radiation is optimized in the high desert at night where
> the heat can radiate directly into interstellar space.
> (This is also why frost can form when the air temperature
> is above the freezing point of water. The dew is coupled
> to a heat bath well below freezing: outer space.)
>
> Keeping the bottles out of the wind is the winner, as
> it takes convection out of the heat transfer business.
> Ice is an enormous heat sink.
>
> --
> Michael Press

To reduce the radiative cooling effect, you might try adding a
reflective layer. Aluminum foil or emergency blanket material.

Cut up an emergency blanket for a strip to wrap around the side and a
bottom hole cover and glue together instead / inside of the ziploc bag

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> I discovered something entirely by accident that might be of use to
>> others.
>> How to keep a frozen water bottle... frozen.
>
> You've just discovered the principle of insulation! In your case, it
> is the same action as a thermos bottle, a dead air space. You probably
> have double glazed windows at home for the same reason.
>
> For what it is worth, the others are wrong about evaporative cooling
> in your case. On of the key parts to your design is the plastic bag.
> That keeps the dead air space dead (not circulating environmental
> temperature at road speed) and eliminates any evaporative cooling
> (unless you place a wet rag over the plastic bag).

Right. I didn't figure evaporative cooling was in force, since there was no
air passing by to aid in evaporation. So a loosely-fit plastic baggie would
be better than a tight one, since when loose, you have "dead air" space?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Bill Sornson]

smokeystrodtman@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 10, 11:07 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
>>>> 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>>
>> That's what Al Gore does on his 1970's era Gulfstream! LOL
>
> Not trying to start anything, but I'm just curious. Is this the same
> Bill Sornson that in a post just a few days ago claimed he is never
> the first one to inject politics into a thread on another subject?

I've never started a political thread (a la Jobst) by posting a link to some
"seriously" controversial issue. That I recall at least.

Making a short, humorous quip intended to tweak one of the most partisan,
hate-filled, mean-spirited morons around is hardly comparable, IMO, but
you're more than welcome to disagree or even plonk me.

> Smokey

Stuff it in yer pipe, bub!

[still me]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 04:01:08 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>
>Right. I didn't figure evaporative cooling was in force, since there was no
>air passing by to aid in evaporation. So a loosely-fit plastic baggie would
>be better than a tight one, since when loose, you have "dead air" space?

The best choice would be a bottle suspended in the bag so that no part
of it actually touched the bag. That way you get dead air as an
insulator and minimal conduction and convection. It the bottle is
contacting the bag, you have an issue. The paper towel rap helps with
that.

[smokeystrodtman@gmail.com]

On Sep 10, 11:57 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> smokeystrodt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 11:07 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> >>>> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz, have
> >>>> 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>
> >> That's what Al Gore does on his 1970's era Gulfstream! LOL
>
> > Not trying to start anything, but I'm just curious. Is this the same
> > Bill Sornson that in a post just a few days ago claimed he is never
> > the first one to inject politics into a thread on another subject?
>
> I've never started a political thread (a la Jobst) by posting a link to some
> "seriously" controversial issue. That I recall at least.
>
> Making a short, humorous quip intended to tweak one of the most partisan,
> hate-filled, mean-spirited morons around is hardly comparable, IMO, but
> you're more than welcome to disagree or even plonk me.
>
> > Smokey
>
> Stuff it in yer pipe, bub!

One more question, Bill: exactly who are you calling a "hate-filled,
mean-spirited moron?" I'm a little confused here. Also, what am I
stuffing in my pipe?

Smokey

[Leo Lichtman]

"Bill Sornson" wrote: (clip) Making a short, humorous quip intended to
tweak one of the most partisan, hate-filled, mean-spirited morons around
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didn't get it until you helped me make the connection to the President.

[Bill Sornson]

smokeystrodtman@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 10, 11:57 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>> smokeystrodt...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sep 10, 11:07 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>>>>>> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz,
>>>>>> have 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>>
>>>> That's what Al Gore does on his 1970's era Gulfstream! LOL
>>
>>> Not trying to start anything, but I'm just curious. Is this the same
>>> Bill Sornson that in a post just a few days ago claimed he is never
>>> the first one to inject politics into a thread on another subject?
>>
>> I've never started a political thread (a la Jobst) by posting a link
>> to some "seriously" controversial issue. That I recall at least.
>>
>> Making a short, humorous quip intended to tweak one of the most
>> partisan, hate-filled, mean-spirited morons around is hardly
>> comparable, IMO, but you're more than welcome to disagree or even
>> plonk me.
>>
>>> Smokey
>>
>> Stuff it in yer pipe, bub!
>
> One more question, Bill: exactly who are you calling a "hate-filled,
> mean-spirited moron?"

Terra Rat. (Sigh.) I was pointing out that double bagging will cause NYC
to flood and polar bears to drown; meanwhile, Al flies around on his OLD
Gulfstream (even less fuel-efficient than modern spewers).

> I'm a little confused here. Also, what am I
> stuffing in my pipe?

> Smokey

Play on your name. Didn't know how thin-skinned you are. Sorry.

Bill "NEVER MIND...SHEESH" S.

[smokeystrodtman@gmail.com]

On Sep 11, 3:46 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> smokeystrodt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 11:57 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> >> smokeystrodt...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Sep 10, 11:07 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> >>>>>> Congrats, you've discovered bum tech! Next time ya get a 40oz,
> >>>>>> have 'em double bag it, and you get the same effect.
>
> >>>> That's what Al Gore does on his 1970's era Gulfstream! LOL
>
> >>> Not trying to start anything, but I'm just curious. Is this the same
> >>> Bill Sornson that in a post just a few days ago claimed he is never
> >>> the first one to inject politics into a thread on another subject?
>
> >> I've never started a political thread (a la Jobst) by posting a link
> >> to some "seriously" controversial issue. That I recall at least.
>
> >> Making a short, humorous quip intended to tweak one of the most
> >> partisan, hate-filled, mean-spirited morons around is hardly
> >> comparable, IMO, but you're more than welcome to disagree or even
> >> plonk me.
>
> >>> Smokey
>
> >> Stuff it in yer pipe, bub!
>
> > One more question, Bill: exactly who are you calling a "hate-filled,
> > mean-spirited moron?"
>
> Terra Rat. (Sigh.) I was pointing out that double bagging will cause NYC
> to flood and polar bears to drown; meanwhile, Al flies around on his OLD
> Gulfstream (even less fuel-efficient than modern spewers).
>
> > I'm a little confused here. Also, what am I
> > stuffing in my pipe?
> > Smokey
>
> Play on your name. Didn't know how thin-skinned you are. Sorry.
>
> Bill "NEVER MIND...SHEESH" S.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm not thin-skinned, Bill. I grew up in the 60s when all kinds of
things went in our pipes. LOL. I didn't mean any offense.

Smokey

[landotter]

On Sep 11, 6:05 pm, smokeystrodt...@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm not thin-skinned, Bill. I grew up in the 60s when all kinds of
> things went in our pipes. LOL. I didn't mean any offense.

Mean offense with sorni, then plonk him. He's just another
authoritarian cultist, not worth a second more of your time. ;-)

[Michael Warner]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:45:25 GMT, still me wrote:

>>Right. I didn't figure evaporative cooling was in force, since there was no
>>air passing by to aid in evaporation. So a loosely-fit plastic baggie would
>>be better than a tight one, since when loose, you have "dead air" space?
>
> The best choice would be a bottle suspended in the bag so that no part
> of it actually touched the bag. That way you get dead air as an
> insulator and minimal conduction and convection. It the bottle is
> contacting the bag, you have an issue. The paper towel rap helps with
> that.

Someone I ride with who lives part-time in the US has a bottle insulating
pouch he bought there which works on the same principle - it's two
layers of soft plastic separated by a thin layer of foam. I haven't seen
them on sale here (Australia).

IWHT it'd make getting the bottle in and out of the cage difficult, but it
didn't seem to cause him a problem.

[Andrew Price]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:39:28 +0930, Michael Warner
<mvw@westnet.com.au> wrote:

>Someone I ride with who lives part-time in the US has a bottle insulating
>pouch he bought there which works on the same principle - it's two
>layers of soft plastic separated by a thin layer of foam. I haven't seen
>them on sale here (Australia).
>
>IWHT it'd make getting the bottle in and out of the cage difficult, but it
>didn't seem to cause him a problem.

Maybe he has a larger cage - I don't know what's available in Oz, but
I have noted that there are noticeably differences in diameters of
bottles from Germany and Switzerland (narrower) and France (wider).

[Michael Warner]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:28:40 +0200, Andrew Price wrote:

> Maybe he has a larger cage - I don't know what's available in Oz, but
> I have noted that there are noticeably differences in diameters of
> bottles from Germany and Switzerland (narrower) and France (wider).

Good point. He'll be arriving here for summer in a couple of months
(tough life, eh?) so I'll investigate then :-)

[still me]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:23:45 -0000, "mike.a.schwab@gmail.com"
<mike.a.schwab@gmail.com> wrote:


>To reduce the radiative cooling effect, you might try adding a
>reflective layer. Aluminum foil or emergency blanket material.
>
>Cut up an emergency blanket for a strip to wrap around the side and a
>bottom hole cover and glue together instead / inside of the ziploc bag

There's a moderately flexible insulating product with a reflective
surface and foam on the backside, sticky applied, about 5mm thick you
could use for this. It's used to wrap heating ducts and such to
allegedly improve them. I have my doubts that it's worth it for them,
but it would work well inside a bag to create an insulated pouch. You
could even set it up back to back and get double insulation and
reflection.

You can buy a roll of aluminum tape (what pro's use instead of duct
tape on ducts) to secure the seams you need to seal.

As I recall, about $12 for a lifetime sized roll of the stuff at Home
Depot, aluminum tape is about $6 a roll (or use the ol' duct tape).