"City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show

[Matt O'Toole]

Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:

http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers

This proves what can happen when fresh, smart people like Ms. Yeager are
put in charge of marketing, and allowed to try something different than
the same tired old formulas (More carbon! Even fewer spokes!).

This summer I spent 2.5 weeks in southern CA, where beach cruisers are
back with a vengeance. Everyone is riding, and teenagers are again using
bikes as their preferred mode of transportation. There seem to be 3x as
many bike shops as 5 years ago, most of them selling beach cruisers and a
few town/city bikes.

Text of the article is below, for the Usenet archives, in case Wired
eventually makes it unavailable.

Matt O.


***

"City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show

--LAS VEGAS -- Some people believe that, right now, a quiet revolution is
taking place. In cities like London, San Francisco, Boston and New York,
the ranks of bicycle riders are swelling with the rise of a new breed: the
urban biker.

Traffic snarls, soaring gas prices and worries about global warming have
prompted a big boost in cycling, affecting even places like Los Angeles --
America's freeway capital -- that have traditionally given bicycles the
cold shoulder.

"What's really happened in the past year is a cultural shift," says Monica
Howe, 31-year-old outreach coordinator for the Los Angeles County Bicycle
Coalition.

At Interbike 2007, the bicycle industry's giant annual trade show, the
shift toward the urban rider is loudly evident. Fancy road and mountain
bikes are clearly no longer king of the roost -- or road. It's the scads
of fixed-gear, town, single-speed and other urban bicycles that are
drawing the crowds.

The rise of the urban biker is reflected in Specialized's 2008 catalog,
which lists 34 different models of city bike to choose from.

The company is even rolling out six different versions of its ultrapopular
single-speed, fixed-gear Langster. Each model is named after a city that's
on the urban biker radar: the four cities named above, plus Chicago and
Seattle. The New York Langster has narrow handlebars for speeding through
ranks of slow-moving cars, while the Seattle model is equipped with
fenders.

"People really gravitated toward bikes with that urban feel," says Travis
Widder, an associate production manager at Specialized. "We wanted to give
nods toward cities where that bike sold well, where people really embraced
that category."

Interbike 2007 is a lot less sporty than years past. Clothing
manufacturers have more messenger bags on show. Jerseys and shorts are
more urban, less multi-colored lycra.

Swobo, the trendy clothing maker, recently launched its first line of
three city bikes, and is just one of several companies showing new urban
rides.

If anyone gave birth to the urban biker movement, it's probably Sky
Yaeger, Swobo's managing director.

Yaeger was responsible for designing a slew of bikes during her time as
production manager at famed Italian manufacturer Bianchi. Some of her
designs, like the fixed-gear Pista, have been elevated to cult status.
Thanks to the bike's simplicity, it became the favored transport of
urbanites like skaters and surfers.

"What happened is we crossed over the bike culture into skate, surf," she
says. "The kids that are doing it now wouldn't have bought a bike five
years ago. That's a huge delight to me -- because they're on bikes."

In L.A., the bike revolution is helped by shops like the grassroots
Bicycle Kitchen. "It makes it easy for anyone to put together a bike
cheap," says Howe. "And it made it hip, which can't hurt."

Volunteers at the Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective, a nonprofit that
provides tools and training for riders to maintain their bikes, have
experienced a huge bump in visitors.

"It's gotten out of hand," says Michael Wise, the collective's treasurer.
"We don't have enough volunteers to help the people coming in looking."

San Francisco's trendy Mission District is a hotbed of bicycle activity. A
bicycle lane running the length of Valencia Street is a major artery, as
hipsters in hoodies and precisely rolled, tight-fitting jeans flow along
the street.

At Valencia Cyclery, which is often proclaimed the city's best bike store,
sales associate Babs Brockaway says she's seen the number of customers
leaving with shiny new fixed-gear ("fixie") and single-speed bikes
skyrocket. The store stocks five or six choices, up from a single model
two years ago. The simplicity appeals to neophyte riders overwhelmed by
too much technology.

"It's simple: You just pedal," she says. "This is shocking, but there are
people who buy bikes with gears, who don't shift gears."

Just across from Valencia Cyclery is Ritual Coffee Roasters, a popular
coffeehouse often stuffed full of young hipsters glued to their MacBooks.
It's also a favorite haunt of the urban biker.

Outside, Matt McDonald, a 24-year-old photographer from Boston, talks
about his fixie.

"My friends in Boston were getting into these bikes, and it was just sort
of appealing to me. It's like there's nothing to worry about, and they're
just a blast to ride."

***

[datakoll]

sew? make a cereal type box with cardboard and packing tape then lay
fabric over the box, double stick tape the fabric or spot glue then
sew it up. or go green and tack it with thread and pins.

[Dane Buson]

In rec.bicycles.misc Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> "datakoll" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1190933779.262686.18940@22g2000hsm.googlegrou ps.com...
>>
>>
>> I'm betting on burlap, knobbies and 3 speeds.
>
> I wish someone would compete with Carradice and bring out traditionally
> styled cotton duck panniers with modern mounting hardware. :-)

Err, you mean like the SQR type saddlebag I've been using for the past
three years?

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bags/sqr-products.htm

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
The difference between science and the fuzzy subjects is that science
requires reasoning while those other subjects merely require scholarship.
-- Robert Heinlein

[Zoot Katz]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:08:39 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<mattotoole@letterboxes.org> quoted, in part:
>
>If anyone gave birth to the urban biker movement, it's probably Sky
>Yaeger, Swobo's managing director.

Bulldadda. Urban cycling has been with us for over 130 years

We can look forward to scooping some nice equipment at garage sales
after these trend following fixey clones get their knee replacement
surgeries.

If anyone is responsible for cyclists regaining their senses it was
you, me and freds the world over who never knew
transportation/utility/commuting cycling was ever out of "fashion".

Our "beaters" are the real progenitors of this new bicycle breed.

Ms. Yeager just happened to pick up on the meme at a time when cities
are becoming untenable for occupants of those stinking lesser
vehicles that we've been brainwashed to accept as normal.
--
zk

[Gooserider]

"Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.09.27.19.08.32.238598@letterboxes.or g...
> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>
> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers
>
> This proves what can happen when fresh, smart people like Ms. Yeager are
> put in charge of marketing, and allowed to try something different than
> the same tired old formulas (More carbon! Even fewer spokes!).
>
> This summer I spent 2.5 weeks in southern CA, where beach cruisers are
> back with a vengeance. Everyone is riding, and teenagers are again using
> bikes as their preferred mode of transportation. There seem to be 3x as
> many bike shops as 5 years ago, most of them selling beach cruisers and a
> few town/city bikes.
>
> Text of the article is below, for the Usenet archives, in case Wired
> eventually makes it unavailable.
>
> Matt O.
>

I've been watching the news from Interbike, and there sure are a lot of
commuter-centric bikes available. Some, I think, are going to do very well.
I think Raleigh has a hit with it's Detour Deluxe. Fully specced out
commuter(rack, fenders, dynohub, front and rear lights)--$710. Put that on
the showroom floor and watch it sell.

The shocker for me? The $2000 Breezer "commuter" and the Civia Cycles line,
especially the Civia. If I'm going to spend $1900 on a singlespeed, it had
better be handmade or made out of some exotic material. But Taiwanese
aluminum and a carbon fork? No thank you.

I wondered about the security of locking a $2000+ commuter to a rack, and
some folks have said that security is becoming less of a concern because so
many employers provide secure storage. That's great---but what happens when
you want to stop on the way home? Now you have to lock up the luxo-hybrid in
front of the grocery store, bodega, bar, whatever. I have a road bike on
which I commute. It goes from home to work and back. I also have a beater I
shop with. Will people with luxo-hybrids eventually end up in the same boat?
"I'll park the Civia and ride the Trek to shop"? LOL.

[BobT]

"Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.09.27.19.08.32.238598@letterboxes.or g...
> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>
> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers

> "City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show
>

Oh no!
My commuter/touring bike and I might become hip!
What else will I need to do to become a hipster?
Dye my hair green (after some Grecian formula as well)?
Wear my old, out of style (I'm not very good at determing this) clothes
rather than taking them to the Salvation Army?
Get rid of my Rohloff hub and get a fixie hub (it will be easy to put it
back on when the fad dies out)?
Are my fenders and lights now cool?

BobT

[bluezfolk]

On Sep 27, 2:08 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>
> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers
>
> This proves what can happen when fresh, smart people like Ms. Yeager are
> put in charge of marketing, and allowed to try something different than
> the same tired old formulas (More carbon! Even fewer spokes!).
>
> This summer I spent 2.5 weeks in southern CA, where beach cruisers are
> back with a vengeance. Everyone is riding, and teenagers are again using
> bikes as their preferred mode of transportation. There seem to be 3x as
> many bike shops as 5 years ago, most of them selling beach cruisers and a
> few town/city bikes.
>
> Text of the article is below, for the Usenet archives, in case Wired
> eventually makes it unavailable.
>
> Matt O.
>
> ***
>
> "City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show
>
> --LAS VEGAS -- Some people believe that, right now, a quiet revolution is
> taking place. In cities like London, San Francisco, Boston and New York,
> the ranks of bicycle riders are swelling with the rise of a new breed: the
> urban biker.
>
> Traffic snarls, soaring gas prices and worries about global warming have
> prompted a big boost in cycling, affecting even places like Los Angeles --
> America's freeway capital -- that have traditionally given bicycles the
> cold shoulder.
>
> "What's really happened in the past year is a cultural shift," says Monica
> Howe, 31-year-old outreach coordinator for the Los Angeles County Bicycle
> Coalition.
>
> At Interbike 2007, the bicycle industry's giant annual trade show, the
> shift toward the urban rider is loudly evident. Fancy road and mountain
> bikes are clearly no longer king of the roost -- or road. It's the scads
> of fixed-gear, town, single-speed and other urban bicycles that are
> drawing the crowds.
>
> The rise of the urban biker is reflected in Specialized's 2008 catalog,
> which lists 34 different models of city bike to choose from.
>
> The company is even rolling out six different versions of its ultrapopular
> single-speed, fixed-gear Langster. Each model is named after a city that's
> on the urban biker radar: the four cities named above, plus Chicago and
> Seattle. The New York Langster has narrow handlebars for speeding through
> ranks of slow-moving cars, while the Seattle model is equipped with
> fenders.
>
> "People really gravitated toward bikes with that urban feel," says Travis
> Widder, an associate production manager at Specialized. "We wanted to give
> nods toward cities where that bike sold well, where people really embraced
> that category."
>
> Interbike 2007 is a lot less sporty than years past. Clothing
> manufacturers have more messenger bags on show. Jerseys and shorts are
> more urban, less multi-colored lycra.
>
> Swobo, the trendy clothing maker, recently launched its first line of
> three city bikes, and is just one of several companies showing new urban
> rides.
>
> If anyone gave birth to the urban biker movement, it's probably Sky
> Yaeger, Swobo's managing director.
>
> Yaeger was responsible for designing a slew of bikes during her time as
> production manager at famed Italian manufacturer Bianchi. Some of her
> designs, like the fixed-gear Pista, have been elevated to cult status.
> Thanks to the bike's simplicity, it became the favored transport of
> urbanites like skaters and surfers.
>
> "What happened is we crossed over the bike culture into skate, surf," she
> says. "The kids that are doing it now wouldn't have bought a bike five
> years ago. That's a huge delight to me -- because they're on bikes."
>
> In L.A., the bike revolution is helped by shops like the grassroots
> Bicycle Kitchen. "It makes it easy for anyone to put together a bike
> cheap," says Howe. "And it made it hip, which can't hurt."
>
> Volunteers at the Salt Lake City Bicycle Collective, a nonprofit that
> provides tools and training for riders to maintain their bikes, have
> experienced a huge bump in visitors.
>
> "It's gotten out of hand," says Michael Wise, the collective's treasurer.
> "We don't have enough volunteers to help the people coming in looking."
>
> San Francisco's trendy Mission District is a hotbed of bicycle activity. A
> bicycle lane running the length of Valencia Street is a major artery, as
> hipsters in hoodies and precisely rolled, tight-fitting jeans flow along
> the street.
>
> At Valencia Cyclery, which is often proclaimed the city's best bike store,
> sales associate Babs Brockaway says she's seen the number of customers
> leaving with shiny new fixed-gear ("fixie") and single-speed bikes
> skyrocket. The store stocks five or six choices, up from a single model
> two years ago. The simplicity appeals to neophyte riders overwhelmed by
> too much technology.
>
> "It's simple: You just pedal," she says. "This is shocking, but there are
> people who buy bikes with gears, who don't shift gears."
>
> Just across from Valencia Cyclery is Ritual Coffee Roasters, a popular
> coffeehouse often stuffed full of young hipsters glued to their MacBooks.
> It's also a favorite haunt of the urban biker.
>
> Outside, Matt McDonald, a 24-year-old photographer from Boston, talks
> about his fixie.
>
> "My friends in Boston were getting into these bikes, and it was just sort
> of appealing to me. It's like there's nothing to worry about, and they're
> just a blast to ride."
>
> ***

Theres never been a shortage of bikes in lower Manhattan (NYC). Most
seem to be low end mtb types. Just look at any traffic sign and see
them all chained up, with no seats. Seems theft is a major problem,
and people haven't found a good way of securing their seats (or maybe
a seatless bike is just less attractive to thieves)

Eric

[Tom Keats]

In article <pan.2007.09.27.19.08.32.238598@letterboxes.org>,
Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> writes:
> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>
> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers

I've empirically observed a growing trend in
more practical uses of bicycles than sports
equipment, myself.

I like it.

But I also like that bicycles /can/ be sports
equipment. Or recreational equipment. Or
work vehicles.

Bicycles are so versatile, it blows my mind.

It's all too easy to get locked into a mindset
about one's own style of cycling, and dismiss
all the others. But I must admit I enjoy a
certain pleasure in seeing sprouts of acceptance
of cycling as a serious, true mode of transportation.
I hope it thrives.

Some people have taken issue with the nomenclature:
"city bike", and I kinda feel the same way. I'm rather
taken with the description of bicycling as "Folk
Transportation". I suppose if one wants to be fancily
Euro about it, they can get on their VolksFahrrad.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[datakoll]

I'm betting on burlap, knobbies and 3 speeds.

[Michael Press]

In article
<pr0of3hm2pt73knbu2hsiba7t90opv7mrl@4ax.com>,
Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:08:39 -0400, Matt O'Toole
> <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> quoted, in part:
> >
> >If anyone gave birth to the urban biker movement, it's probably Sky
> >Yaeger, Swobo's managing director.
>
> Bulldadda. Urban cycling has been with us for over 130 years
>
> We can look forward to scooping some nice equipment at garage sales
> after these trend following fixey clones get their knee replacement
> surgeries.
>
> If anyone is responsible for cyclists regaining their senses it was
> you, me and freds the world over who never knew
> transportation/utility/commuting cycling was ever out of "fashion".

It _was_ out of fashion. Dag nabbed fashion is always trying
to catch up with me. They'll never make it though. I've got
more where that came from.

> Our "beaters" are the real progenitors of this new bicycle breed.

[...]

--
Michael Press

[Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®]

"datakoll" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1190933779.262686.18940@22g2000hsm.googlegrou ps.com...
>
>
> I'm betting on burlap, knobbies and 3 speeds.
>

Trikes.

[SMS]

Gooserider wrote:

> I've been watching the news from Interbike, and there sure are a lot of
> commuter-centric bikes available. Some, I think, are going to do very well.
> I think Raleigh has a hit with it's Detour Deluxe. Fully specced out
> commuter(rack, fenders, dynohub, front and rear lights)--$710. Put that on
> the showroom floor and watch it sell.

But will the dealers put it on the showroom floor? Trek had some good
commute bicycles but almost no dealers carried them. Specialized had the
Globe, a very good deal (about the same price as the Raleigh), but only
a couple of shops in my area carried them, and none close to me (one
dealer in San Francisco, one in Palo Alto). They always say, "we can
order it for you, just pay first." This is a recipe for failure. The
dealers don't believe they will sell and don't want to use floor space
for inventory that they can't move at a good margin.

At least the REI Transfer ("http://www.rei.com/product/744802") is a
bike that you can actually try before you ride.

[landotter]

On Sep 27, 7:30 pm, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> "Matt O'Toole" <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
>
> news:pan.2007.09.27.19.08.32.238598@letterboxes.or g...
>
>
>
> > Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>
> >http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers
>
> > This proves what can happen when fresh, smart people like Ms. Yeager are
> > put in charge of marketing, and allowed to try something different than
> > the same tired old formulas (More carbon! Even fewer spokes!).
>
> > This summer I spent 2.5 weeks in southern CA, where beach cruisers are
> > back with a vengeance. Everyone is riding, and teenagers are again using
> > bikes as their preferred mode of transportation. There seem to be 3x as
> > many bike shops as 5 years ago, most of them selling beach cruisers and a
> > few town/city bikes.
>
> > Text of the article is below, for the Usenet archives, in case Wired
> > eventually makes it unavailable.
>
> > Matt O.
>
> I've been watching the news from Interbike, and there sure are a lot of
> commuter-centric bikes available. Some, I think, are going to do very well.
> I think Raleigh has a hit with it's Detour Deluxe. Fully specced out
> commuter(rack, fenders, dynohub, front and rear lights)--$710. Put that on
> the showroom floor and watch it sell.

Nah, put a hip $500 3 speed with fenders and a rack on the floor and
it will sell. My LBS has been selling out of the Electra Amsterdams @
550, and this is freaking Nashville Tennessee. Mind, it is in a pocket
of weirdos, artists, and queers. The Amsterdam is quite nice, and has
hit a big niche--but I think that there's a parallel niche for a more
mildly retro/modern and less severe bike that's more like the standard
modern utility bikes you see in Sweden, basically hybrid geometry,
with North Road type bars and a gear hub.

[Don Wiss]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>The shocker for me? The $2000 Breezer "commuter"

Huh? Breezer's most expensive "town" bike is the Uptown 8. It goes for
$850.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

[Gooserider]

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:46fc4f3d$0$27212$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Gooserider wrote:
>
>> I've been watching the news from Interbike, and there sure are a lot of
>> commuter-centric bikes available. Some, I think, are going to do very
>> well. I think Raleigh has a hit with it's Detour Deluxe. Fully specced
>> out commuter(rack, fenders, dynohub, front and rear lights)--$710. Put
>> that on the showroom floor and watch it sell.
>
> But will the dealers put it on the showroom floor? Trek had some good
> commute bicycles but almost no dealers carried them. Specialized had the
> Globe, a very good deal (about the same price as the Raleigh), but only a
> couple of shops in my area carried them, and none close to me (one dealer
> in San Francisco, one in Palo Alto). They always say, "we can order it for
> you, just pay first." This is a recipe for failure. The dealers don't
> believe they will sell and don't want to use floor space for inventory
> that they can't move at a good margin.
>
> At least the REI Transfer ("http://www.rei.com/product/744802") is a bike
> that you can actually try before you ride.

The suggestion from manufacturers is that "things are different now" and
"the market is ready". Whether shop owners will commit to stocking them
remains to be seen----but the Raleigh has a much better chance of being
stocked than the Civia.

That being said, selling an expensive hybrid commuter is difficult. Selling
an expensive road bike is relatively easy. "Hey, feel how light it is!", or
"Hey, check out those lugs. That bike is hand made by a craftsman in
Wisconsin.". Selling an MTB is easy, too---it's all about the cutting edge
tech.

How do you convince someone to spend $3000 on a Civia, a bike which is
pretty much single purpose? If I buy a Trek Portland, I can commute on it,
race cross on it, tour on it, or put light wheels on it and go fast. You
can't do that on a hybrid, realistically.

[Don Wiss]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:49:18 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>But will the dealers put it on the showroom floor? Trek had some good
>commute bicycles but almost no dealers carried them.

Because Trek did not sell them in the US. Those were their world models.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

[datakoll]

On Sep 27, 9:18 pm, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:46fc4f3d$0$27212$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Gooserider wrote:
>
> >> I've been watching the news from Interbike, and there sure are a lot of
> >> commuter-centric bikes available. Some, I think, are going to do very
> >> well. I think Raleigh has a hit with it's Detour Deluxe. Fully specced
> >> out commuter(rack, fenders, dynohub, front and rear lights)--$710. Put
> >> that on the showroom floor and watch it sell.
>
> > But will the dealers put it on the showroom floor? Trek had some good
> > commute bicycles but almost no dealers carried them. Specialized had the
> > Globe, a very good deal (about the same price as the Raleigh), but only a
> > couple of shops in my area carried them, and none close to me (one dealer
> > in San Francisco, one in Palo Alto). They always say, "we can order it for
> > you, just pay first." This is a recipe for failure. The dealers don't
> > believe they will sell and don't want to use floor space for inventory
> > that they can't move at a good margin.
>
> > At least the REI Transfer ("http://www.rei.com/product/744802") is a bike
> > that you can actually try before you ride.
>
> The suggestion from manufacturers is that "things are different now" and
> "the market is ready". Whether shop owners will commit to stocking them
> remains to be seen----but the Raleigh has a much better chance of being
> stocked than the Civia.
>
> That being said, selling an expensive hybrid commuter is difficult. Selling
> an expensive road bike is relatively easy. "Hey, feel how light it is!", or
> "Hey, check out those lugs. That bike is hand made by a craftsman in
> Wisconsin.". Selling an MTB is easy, too---it's all about the cutting edge
> tech.
>
> How do you convince someone to spend $3000 on a Civia, a bike which is
> pretty much single purpose? If I buy a Trek Portland, I can commute on it,
> race cross on it, tour on it, or put light wheels on it and go fast. You
> can't do that on a hybrid, realistically.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

piker

[SMS]

Gooserider wrote:

> That being said, selling an expensive hybrid commuter is difficult. Selling
> an expensive road bike is relatively easy. "Hey, feel how light it is!", or
> "Hey, check out those lugs. That bike is hand made by a craftsman in
> Wisconsin.". Selling an MTB is easy, too---it's all about the cutting edge
> tech.

I think Performance had the better plan with the World Avenue. Sell a
relatively low priced commute bicycle with racks, fenders, and most
importantly a chain guard. I wish they'd included a hub dynamo too.
OTOH, all of the factory hub-dynamo equipped bicycles I see around here
(mainly Joe Breeze and REI Transfer) have additional lights installed
because they're used in an environment where the included dynamo lights
don't cut it. If the owners knew about the SolidLight for dynamos, and
had a way to buy it here for $150 or so, I'd think it'd sell reasonably
well, since the battery powered systems on these bikes are always of the
expensive variety.

[Gooserider]

"datakoll" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1190944684.102691.41000@y42g2000hsy.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
> sew? make a cereal type box with cardboard and packing tape then lay
> fabric over the box, double stick tape the fabric or spot glue then
> sew it up. or go green and tack it with thread and pins.

Guess you missed the part about "modern mounting hardware".

[Gooserider]

"datakoll" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1190944764.965404.76900@k79g2000hse.googlegro ups.com...
>>
> piker

So which definition of this am I?

n.
Slang
1. A cautious gambler.
2. A person regarded as petty or stingy.

[datakoll]

SIZE: One; step-through available WEIGHT: 30.1 lb. FRAME: Aluminum
alloy FORK: Single-crown steel COMPONENT HIGHLIGHTS: Shimano Nexus
internal 3-speed hub, Revo shifter, 19t cassette; 700x38 tires

the amsterdam weighs 30 pounds!

giveum a 3 speed calloi with flourescent orange paint and a puke green
fade

anyway, are yawl sure these guys wanna sell to poor people?

[Tom Keats]

In article <1190946135.417846.117730@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.c om>,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> writes:

>> I've been watching the news from Interbike, and there sure are a lot of
>> commuter-centric bikes available. Some, I think, are going to do very well.
>> I think Raleigh has a hit with it's Detour Deluxe. Fully specced out
>> commuter(rack, fenders, dynohub, front and rear lights)--$710. Put that on
>> the showroom floor and watch it sell.
>
> Nah, put a hip $500 3 speed with fenders and a rack on the floor and
> it will sell.

Except perhaps for the "hip" part, you just described
the Raleigh Sport I had in my youth.

Except for the $500 part, you just described my
Raleigh Twenty.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> That being said, selling an expensive hybrid commuter is difficult.
>> Selling an expensive road bike is relatively easy. "Hey, feel how light
>> it is!", or "Hey, check out those lugs. That bike is hand made by a
>> craftsman in Wisconsin.". Selling an MTB is easy, too---it's all about
>> the cutting edge tech.
>
> I think Performance had the better plan with the World Avenue. Sell a
> relatively low priced commute bicycle with racks, fenders, and most
> importantly a chain guard. I wish they'd included a hub dynamo too. OTOH,
> all of the factory hub-dynamo equipped bicycles I see around here (mainly
> Joe Breeze and REI Transfer) have additional lights installed because
> they're used in an environment where the included dynamo lights don't cut
> it. If the owners knew about the SolidLight for dynamos, and had a way to
> buy it here for $150 or so, I'd think it'd sell reasonably well, since the
> battery powered systems on these bikes are always of the expensive
> variety.

It's almost impossible to get customers to buy practical bikes. We've
stocked fully-decked-out commuter bikes, and they sit & rot on the floor.
We've dressed up stock standard bikes, showing people what's available for
them, and they just collect dust and sales of fenders & lighting systems
only go to those who already understand their value, not new converts to the
cause.

It's possible that the new widespread awareness of global warming may have
an effect, along with a general feeling that we ought to do a better job of
protecting the planet for the next generation. But I'm skeptical. We, as an
industry, are relatively powerless. We don't control the media, or at least
the parts that influence the lives of everyday people. The bicycle industry
is finally beginning to band together for common marketing causes, of which
utility use bicycles is a big battle cry. The feeling is that, if we can get
utilitarian use of the bicycle seen as a mainstream activity, it will raise
sales of *all* types of bicycles, thus avoiding the pitfall of creating a
beast that becomes a non-profit commodity item.

Would be nice that we actually had reason to be scared of creating such a
beast...

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:46fc68ba$0$27210$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Gooserider wrote:
>
>> That being said, selling an expensive hybrid commuter is difficult.
>> Selling an expensive road bike is relatively easy. "Hey, feel how light
>> it is!", or "Hey, check out those lugs. That bike is hand made by a
>> craftsman in Wisconsin.". Selling an MTB is easy, too---it's all about
>> the cutting edge tech.
>
> I think Performance had the better plan with the World Avenue. Sell a
> relatively low priced commute bicycle with racks, fenders, and most
> importantly a chain guard. I wish they'd included a hub dynamo too. OTOH,
> all of the factory hub-dynamo equipped bicycles I see around here (mainly
> Joe Breeze and REI Transfer) have additional lights installed because
> they're used in an environment where the included dynamo lights don't cut
> it. If the owners knew about the SolidLight for dynamos, and had a way to
> buy it here for $150 or so, I'd think it'd sell reasonably well, since the
> battery powered systems on these bikes are always of the expensive
> variety.

[SMS]

Don Wiss wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:49:18 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> But will the dealers put it on the showroom floor? Trek had some good
>> commute bicycles but almost no dealers carried them.
>
> Because Trek did not sell them in the US. Those were their world models.
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

They sold them at Bike Gallery in Portland. Presumably other dealers
could have gotten them if they wanted to.

[Gooserider]

"Don Wiss" <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote in message
news:o2sof39dio6951iq2jp2oujppon59sv7in@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>>The shocker for me? The $2000 Breezer "commuter"
>
> Huh? Breezer's most expensive "town" bike is the Uptown 8. It goes for
> $850.
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).


Ya need to keep up with what's going on at Interbike.

http://commutebybike.com/2007/09/26/the-ultimate-commuter-bike/

$1900 Breezer Finesse. You're welcome.

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> It's almost impossible to get customers to buy practical bikes. We've
> stocked fully-decked-out commuter bikes, and they sit & rot on the floor.
> We've dressed up stock standard bikes, showing people what's available for
> them, and they just collect dust and sales of fenders & lighting systems
> only go to those who already understand their value, not new converts to the
> cause.

I think it's a matter of pricing. The reason the Schwinn World Avenue
has done relatively well is because they priced it well. On sale, with
the Team Performance discount, it goes for around $320, sometimes less.
They can't keep it in stock. It's going to be very different for a
$700-1000 commuter bike, even if it includes some dynamo lights.

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Sep 27, 10:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:

> > I think Performance had the better plan with the World Avenue. Sell a
> > relatively low priced commute bicycle with racks, fenders, and most
> > importantly a chain guard. I wish they'd included a hub dynamo too. OTOH,
> > all of the factory hub-dynamo equipped bicycles I see around here (mainly
> > Joe Breeze and REI Transfer) have additional lights installed because
> > they're used in an environment where the included dynamo lights don't cut
> > it. If the owners knew about the SolidLight for dynamos, and had a way to
> > buy it here for $150 or so, I'd think it'd sell reasonably well, since the
> > battery powered systems on these bikes are always of the expensive
> > variety.
>
> It's almost impossible to get customers to buy practical bikes. We've
> stocked fully-decked-out commuter bikes, and they sit & rot on the floor.
> We've dressed up stock standard bikes, showing people what's available for
> them, and they just collect dust and sales of fenders & lighting systems
> only go to those who already understand their value, not new converts to the
> cause.
>
> It's possible that the new widespread awareness of global warming may have
> an effect, along with a general feeling that we ought to do a better job of
> protecting the planet for the next generation. But I'm skeptical. We, as an
> industry, are relatively powerless. We don't control the media, or at least
> the parts that influence the lives of everyday people. The bicycle industry
> is finally beginning to band together for common marketing causes, of which
> utility use bicycles is a big battle cry. The feeling is that, if we can get
> utilitarian use of the bicycle seen as a mainstream activity, it will raise
> sales of *all* types of bicycles, thus avoiding the pitfall of creating a
> beast that becomes a non-profit commodity item.
>
> Would be nice that we actually had reason to be scared of creating such a
> beast...
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Dear Mike,

Chain guards, lights, pricing, global warming, all the media's fault,
blah-blah-blah . . .

Here's a hot new city bike that should scare us sissies, no fancy
fenders, no silly clipless pedals, no high prices:

http://www.pbase.com/kayakbiker/image/27685415

It's your basic 80-tooth front-sprocket 1907 fixie--simple, reliable
transportation with head-light, tool-bag, sprung-seat, cruiser
handlebars, and front suspension. (Okay, 40-tooth inch-pitch.)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[A Muzi]

>> Gooserider wrote:
>>> That being said, selling an expensive hybrid commuter is difficult.
>>> Selling an expensive road bike is relatively easy. "Hey, feel how light
>>> it is!", or "Hey, check out those lugs. That bike is hand made by a
>>> craftsman in Wisconsin.". Selling an MTB is easy, too---it's all about
>>> the cutting edge tech.

> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>> I think Performance had the better plan with the World Avenue. Sell a
>> relatively low priced commute bicycle with racks, fenders, and most
>> importantly a chain guard. I wish they'd included a hub dynamo too. OTOH,
>> all of the factory hub-dynamo equipped bicycles I see around here (mainly
>> Joe Breeze and REI Transfer) have additional lights installed because
>> they're used in an environment where the included dynamo lights don't cut
>> it. If the owners knew about the SolidLight for dynamos, and had a way to
>> buy it here for $150 or so, I'd think it'd sell reasonably well, since the
>> battery powered systems on these bikes are always of the expensive
>> varietyMike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> That being said, selling an expensive hybrid commuter is difficult.
>>> Selling an expensive road bike is relatively easy. "Hey, feel how light
>>> it is!", or "Hey, check out those lugs. That bike is hand made by a
>>> craftsman in Wisconsin.". Selling an MTB is easy, too---it's all about
>>> the cutting edge tech.
>> I think Performance had the better plan with the World Avenue. Sell a
>> relatively low priced commute bicycle with racks, fenders, and most
>> importantly a chain guard. I wish they'd included a hub dynamo too. OTOH,
>> all of the factory hub-dynamo equipped bicycles I see around here (mainly
>> Joe Breeze and REI Transfer) have additional lights installed because
>> they're used in an environment where the included dynamo lights don't cut
>> it. If the owners knew about the SolidLight for dynamos, and had a way to
>> buy it here for $150 or so, I'd think it'd sell reasonably well, since the
>> battery powered systems on these bikes are always of the expensive
>> variety.

>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> It's almost impossible to get customers to buy practical bikes. We've
> stocked fully-decked-out commuter bikes, and they sit & rot on the floor.
> We've dressed up stock standard bikes, showing people what's available for
> them, and they just collect dust and sales of fenders & lighting systems
> only go to those who already understand their value, not new converts to the
> cause.
>
> It's possible that the new widespread awareness of global warming may have
> an effect, along with a general feeling that we ought to do a better job of
> protecting the planet for the next generation. But I'm skeptical. We, as an
> industry, are relatively powerless. We don't control the media, or at least
> the parts that influence the lives of everyday people. The bicycle industry
> is finally beginning to band together for common marketing causes, of which
> utility use bicycles is a big battle cry. The feeling is that, if we can get
> utilitarian use of the bicycle seen as a mainstream activity, it will raise
> sales of *all* types of bicycles, thus avoiding the pitfall of creating a
> beast that becomes a non-profit commodity item.
>
> Would be nice that we actually had reason to be scared of creating such a
> beast...

Yet the same guy who walks past those bikes will spend a few hundred
_more_ badly accessorizing a lesser bike (with much tedium) over the
span of a year or two...
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Zoot Katz]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:49:07 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> It's almost impossible to get customers to buy practical bikes. We've
>> stocked fully-decked-out commuter bikes, and they sit & rot on the floor.
>> We've dressed up stock standard bikes, showing people what's available for
>> them, and they just collect dust and sales of fenders & lighting systems
>> only go to those who already understand their value, not new converts to the
>> cause.
>
>I think it's a matter of pricing. The reason the Schwinn World Avenue
>has done relatively well is because they priced it well. On sale, with
>the Team Performance discount, it goes for around $320, sometimes less.
>They can't keep it in stock. It's going to be very different for a
>$700-1000 commuter bike, even if it includes some dynamo lights.

I think when people start noticing how sexy we are they'll pay
anything to get on the bandwagon.

Fixed gear bikes have become popular largely because of the
messengers iconic image.

If city bikes help cyclists to dress better more people will be
encouraged to ride. By coming stock with fenders having coat/skirt
protectors, chain guards and geometry that permits a more dignified
riding position people can wear their "normal" clothes.
http://copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/

Keep it lightweight, give 'em a place for their stuff and lights like
a real vehicle. At $1000 though, I'm afraid many of the new converts
will be expecting a motor.
--
zk

[Gooserider]

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:46fc876f$0$27182$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> It's almost impossible to get customers to buy practical bikes. We've
>> stocked fully-decked-out commuter bikes, and they sit & rot on the floor.
>> We've dressed up stock standard bikes, showing people what's available
>> for them, and they just collect dust and sales of fenders & lighting
>> systems only go to those who already understand their value, not new
>> converts to the cause.
>
> I think it's a matter of pricing. The reason the Schwinn World Avenue has
> done relatively well is because they priced it well. On sale, with the
> Team Performance discount, it goes for around $320, sometimes less. They
> can't keep it in stock. It's going to be very different for a $700-1000
> commuter bike, even if it includes some dynamo lights.

Cheaper is better for a dedicated commuter, I think. Of course, that depends
on the type of commute. But for something that may be locked to a rack all
day, or will be used for stops at the grocery store on the way home from
work---yes. They're making a big deal about the dynohub lights, but I don't
know how bright these lights will be. I know that there are good generator
lights(Lumotec, etc), but are these cheap ones good?

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> It's almost impossible to get customers to buy practical bikes. We've
>> stocked fully-decked-out commuter bikes, and they sit & rot on the floor.
>> We've dressed up stock standard bikes, showing people what's available
>> for them, and they just collect dust and sales of fenders & lighting
>> systems only go to those who already understand their value, not new
>> converts to the cause.
>
> I think it's a matter of pricing. The reason the Schwinn World Avenue has
> done relatively well is because they priced it well. On sale, with the
> Team Performance discount, it goes for around $320, sometimes less. They
> can't keep it in stock. It's going to be very different for a $700-1000
> commuter bike, even if it includes some dynamo lights.

I really don't think it's a pricing issue, since the bike we set up as a
"proof of concept" machine was built around a $260 model, so the whole thing
ready to go was only around $400. Schwinn's present entry-level "commute"
bike is the World GS, which is a basic hybrid with only fenders and a rear
rack added, no lights.
http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=981. In fact, there
are no lights supplied until you get all the way up to their top-of-the-line
model, the World Adventure-
http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.

If these bikes are selling well, it's not due to price & spec, but because
Performance has gotten behind them. If so, more power to them! They're doing
a much better job (given the apparent success) than I've been able to do.
But suitability to task? In my opinion, a commute bike should be tough as
nails, and part of that is keeping things simple. I'd ditch the suspension
fork immediately, although I admit there are some environments where even
the crude forks such bikes come with might add some degree of comfort.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Dane Buson]

In rec.bicycles.misc Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> "Don Wiss" <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote in message
> news:o2sof39dio6951iq2jp2oujppon59sv7in@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The shocker for me? The $2000 Breezer "commuter"
>>
>> Huh? Breezer's most expensive "town" bike is the Uptown 8. It goes for
>> $850.
>>
>> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
>
> Ya need to keep up with what's going on at Interbike.
>
> http://commutebybike.com/2007/09/26/the-ultimate-commuter-bike/
>
> $1900 Breezer Finesse. You're welcome.

$1900 and no chain guard? Fail.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
XML is like violence -- if its not solving your problem, use more.

[SMS]

Gooserider wrote:

> Cheaper is better for a dedicated commuter, I think. Of course, that depends
> on the type of commute. But for something that may be locked to a rack all
> day, or will be used for stops at the grocery store on the way home from
> work---yes. They're making a big deal about the dynohub lights, but I don't
> know how bright these lights will be. I know that there are good generator
> lights(Lumotec, etc), but are these cheap ones good?

"Good" is such a relative term.

Let's just say it's extremely rare (like never), to see one of these
commute bikes out at night using only the dynamo lights. Of course the
integrated dynamo lights are the only dynamos you're going to see around
for commuters in most parts of the U.S., for technical and demographic
reasons.

I wouldn't say they're good. They're adequate "being seen lights" though
the lack a standlight. They're probably good enough for riding slowly on
familiar streets.

However nothing prevents the owner from buying some better headlamps to
use with the hub dynamo.

If some large company would make the effort to build a Cree based dynamo
light in large quantities then the cost of the components of that light
would come way down.

[Tom Keats]

In article <46fcdb7a$0$28889$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Gooserider" <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> writes:

>> I think it's a matter of pricing. The reason the Schwinn World Avenue has
>> done relatively well is because they priced it well. On sale, with the
>> Team Performance discount, it goes for around $320, sometimes less. They
>> can't keep it in stock. It's going to be very different for a $700-1000
>> commuter bike, even if it includes some dynamo lights.
>
> Cheaper is better for a dedicated commuter, I think. Of course, that depends
> on the type of commute. But for something that may be locked to a rack all
> day, or will be used for stops at the grocery store on the way home from
> work---yes. They're making a big deal about the dynohub lights, but I don't
> know how bright these lights will be. I know that there are good generator
> lights(Lumotec, etc), but are these cheap ones good?

The old Union U-100 headlights serve my purposes well,
as they have done for decades. I'm sure the latest
headlight profferings have improved on beam shaping etc.
But after all, the ol' U-100 was specifically designed
for bicycling purposes too. I luv that big, fat, shiny
disc of glow that its lens displays to onlookers.
I figure, it's not just how bright it is -- it's also
how /big/ it is.

I also have a plastic-shell'd cheap-o version of it,
which performs just as adequately.

And I have a couple of Tung-Lin headlights which are
quite fancy but have a design flaw -- the bracket
which attaches to the front brake bolt is just riveted
onto the headlight shell, and under the weight of the
headlight the rivets eventually loosen.

Anyway, the guts of an efficient headlight is the
Fresnel-ish lens, and they've been readily &
inexpensively manufactured since Hector was a pup.

Generator taillights also have some qualities I prefer
over blinkies. For one thing, they don't disappear
from a coming-from-behind drivers' view at certain
angles as readily as many blinkies do. And they
cast a sort of big, red aura in the air around them,
much more than typical blinkie LEDs do. Generator
taillights penetrate slight->medium fog better
than LEDs. Neither type of light penetrates really
thick fog very well.

Generator taillights can look sharp when fender-mounted.
Mine doesn't; I kinda quick-&-dirtily kludged my
jerry-built mounting. One of these days maybe I'll
concoct some sort of streamlined housing built right
into the fender (when I get a round tuit.)





--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[SMS]

Gooserider wrote:

> Cheaper is better for a dedicated commuter, I think. Of course, that depends
> on the type of commute. But for something that may be locked to a rack all
> day, or will be used for stops at the grocery store on the way home from
> work---yes. They're making a big deal about the dynohub lights, but I don't
> know how bright these lights will be. I know that there are good generator
> lights(Lumotec, etc), but are these cheap ones good?

Many of the so-called commuter bikes lack a chain guard. This is an
omission you'd never see on a commuter bike in the Netherlands or in
China. It's nearly impossible to add a chain guard after the fact. Hebie
in Germany sells some, but you can't easily buy them.
"http://www.hebie.de/pdf/hebie_web_katalog_en.pdf" page 30-51).

A multi-speed bicycle that you can just get on and ride, in your regular
clothes, to the market or to a friend's house, that costs less than
$400. The components don't have to be top of the line, and it doesn't
have to weigh 20 pounds. When you take it home from the store, it
already has the fenders, rack, and chain guard installed, they are not
retail priced add-ons that add $75-100 to the price.

The lights are an issue as the cheaper dyno lights aren't all that
great, and even the expensive ones aren't bright enough for a lot of
commute situations. But you can always supplement the included dynohub
lights with more powerful lights if the situation demands it.

Performance has done well, apparently, with their Schwinn World Avenue,
which is $325-500 depending on when you buy it. At least it's sold well
enough that some sizes are often out of stock.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Sep 28, 7:05 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> "Good" is such a relative term.
>
> Let's just say it's extremely rare (like never), to see one of these
> commute bikes out at night using only the dynamo lights. Of course the
> integrated dynamo lights are the only dynamos you're going to see around
> for commuters in most parts of the U.S., for technical and demographic
> reasons.
>
> I wouldn't say they're good. They're adequate "being seen lights" though
> the lack a standlight. They're probably good enough for riding slowly on
> familiar streets.

I'm amazed that professionals like Joe Breeze, the people at
Specialized, the people at Shimano, etc. (not to mention hundreds of
European manufacturers) don't bow to your authoritative knowledge!
Somehow, they don't seem to recognize that you're the World's Greatest
Authority on bike lighting. They think generator lights are a good
idea, and they don't repeat all your dire warnings!

> If some large company would make the effort to build a Cree based dynamo
> light in large quantities then the cost of the components of that light
> would come way down.

This will happen. Patience.

- Frank Krygowski

[Andreas Oehler]

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:05:00 -0700, SMS:

>Gooserider wrote:
>
>> Cheaper is better for a dedicated commuter, I think. Of course, that depends
>> on the type of commute. But for something that may be locked to a rack all
>> day, or will be used for stops at the grocery store on the way home from
>> work---yes. They're making a big deal about the dynohub lights, but I don't
>> know how bright these lights will be. I know that there are good generator
>> lights(Lumotec, etc), but are these cheap ones good?

They are good enough to do the job - ride around the city or on smaller
streets in the suburbs. Brighter than much of the slamp-on headlights with
integrated battery-compartment.


>Let's just say it's extremely rare (like never), to see one of these
>commute bikes out at night using only the dynamo lights.

Ridiculous. have you been to central europe: Netherlands, germany,
switzerland? Towns are full of bikes at night - most with dynamo lights!

>I wouldn't say they're good. They're adequate "being seen lights" though
>the lack a standlight.

You don't know what you are talking about. The most standard Lumotec found
on european commuter bikes today is the "Lumotec Oval Senso Plus" - of
course with LED-standlight powered by a capacitor. On the back nearly all
commuter bikes (at least in germany) today are equipped with
dynamo-powered LED-lights with similar capacitor-standlight.

>If some large company would make the effort to build a Cree based dynamo
>light in large quantities then the cost of the components of that light
>would come way down.

They will be available in 2-3 weeks: Busch&Müller Lumotec Fly IQ. Much
brighter and more efficient shaped beam like the Solidlights 1203D you
always praise (much dimmer than a standard Lumotec halogen light - but a
little wider). Or the Inoled 20+ Model 2008. Or the Supernova E3 Model
2008...

Andreas

[Don Wiss]

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:05:00 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>Let's just say it's extremely rare (like never), to see one of these
>commute bikes out at night using only the dynamo lights.

Not true here in NYC. Most here commute with no front light at all. I use a
dynamo light. We don't need more. All streets have street lights.

Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides> (e-mail link at page bottom).

[BobT]

"BobT" <RobertLeeTaylorCUT@THISSuddenLink.net> wrote in message
news:46fcee00$0$4065$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net. ..
>
> "Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.09.27.19.08.32.238598@letterboxes.or g...
>> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers
>
>> "City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show
>>
>
> Oh no!
> My commuter/touring bike and I might become hip!
> What else will I need to do to become a hipster?
> Dye my hair green (after some Grecian formula as well)?
> Wear my old, out of style (I'm not very good at determing this) clothes
> rather than taking them to the Salvation Army?
> Get rid of my Rohloff hub and get a fixie hub (it will be easy to put
> it back on when the fad dies out)?
> Are my fenders and lights now cool?
>
> BobT
>
>
After reading my own post, I realized I made a mistake. I should have asked:

Are my fenders and lights now really deck?

BobT

[Dane Buson]

In rec.bicycles.misc BobT <RobertLeeTaylorCUT@thissuddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> "Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.09.27.19.08.32.238598@letterboxes.or g...
>> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers
>
>> "City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show
>>
>
> Oh no!
> My commuter/touring bike and I might become hip!
> What else will I need to do to become a hipster?
> Dye my hair green (after some Grecian formula as well)?

Nononono, Chromium *red* is the new green. Keep up in the back there.

> Wear my old, out of style (I'm not very good at determing this) clothes
> rather than taking them to the Salvation Army?

That should work nicely!

> Get rid of my Rohloff hub and get a fixie hub (it will be easy to put it
> back on when the fad dies out)?

Probably for the best, you don't really need gears for trackstand
competitions and hanging at the coffee shop.

> Are my fenders and lights now cool?

Fenders, you might be able to squeak by with the really terrible clip-on
ones.

Lights - Bah! Hipsters are practically the new ninjas! Weaving
silently through the darkness, invisible, silent (no brake squeals!),
deadly (more to themselves than others though).

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
A Difficulty for Every Solution.
-- Motto of the Federal Civil Service

[Tom Keats]

In article <46fcee00$0$4065$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net>,
"BobT" <RobertLeeTaylorCUT@THISSuddenLink.net> writes:
>
> "Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.09.27.19.08.32.238598@letterboxes.or g...
>> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers
>
>> "City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show
>>
>
> Oh no!
> My commuter/touring bike and I might become hip!

Not if you're over a certain age and your bike is
under a certain age.

Actually, I doubt touring bikes will ever become hip.
But then, ya never know.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Chalo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> are no lights supplied until you get all the way up to their top-of-the-line
> model, the World Adventure-http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.

They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
*from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!! Are they on crack? (I mean,
this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)

Chalo

[Gooserider]

"Dane Buson" <dane@unseen.edu> wrote in message
news:t8uvs4-19p.ln1@curare.zuvembi.homelinux.org...
> In rec.bicycles.misc Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>> "datakoll" <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1190933779.262686.18940@22g2000hsm.googlegrou ps.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm betting on burlap, knobbies and 3 speeds.
>>
>> I wish someone would compete with Carradice and bring out traditionally
>> styled cotton duck panniers with modern mounting hardware. :-)
>
> Err, you mean like the SQR type saddlebag I've been using for the past
> three years?
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bags/sqr-products.htm

Not saddlebag----panniers. Big, huge difference. Err....

[Dane Buson]

In rec.bicycles.misc Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> "Dane Buson" <dane@unseen.edu> wrote in message
>> In rec.bicycles.misc Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wish someone would compete with Carradice and bring out traditionally
>>> styled cotton duck panniers with modern mounting hardware. :-)
>>
>> Err, you mean like the SQR type saddlebag I've been using for the past
>> three years?
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bags/sqr-products.htm
>
> Not saddlebag----panniers. Big, huge difference. Err....

Doh! Mea Culpa! That's what I get for posting when I'm at about 20%
mental capacity. [1] I think when I get home from work, I should just go
lie on the couch and go "wibble" for a while (without the pencils up
nose and the underpants on my head though).

[1] Out 'Too Darn Late' riding and hanging about with disreputable
types. It was a mighty wet night. A sign of the coming monsoon
season most likely.

--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" -Microsoft

[Gooserider]

"Dane Buson" <dane@unseen.edu> wrote in message
news:7ve0t4-33q.ln1@curare.zuvembi.homelinux.org...
> In rec.bicycles.misc Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Don Wiss" <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote in message
>> news:o2sof39dio6951iq2jp2oujppon59sv7in@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Gooserider <Gooserider@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The shocker for me? The $2000 Breezer "commuter"
>>>
>>> Huh? Breezer's most expensive "town" bike is the Uptown 8. It goes for
>>> $850.
>>>
>>> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
>>
>> Ya need to keep up with what's going on at Interbike.
>>
>> http://commutebybike.com/2007/09/26/the-ultimate-commuter-bike/
>>
>> $1900 Breezer Finesse. You're welcome.
>
> $1900 and no chain guard? Fail.

No chain guard. No cargo carrying capacity. Crappy light. So you spend this
much money on a "turn key" solution, then the dealer hits you up again.
Kinda defeats the purpose, no?

[Andreas Oehler]

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:43 -0400, Gooserider:

>>> $1900 Breezer Finesse. You're welcome.
>>
>> $1900 and no chain guard? Fail.
>
>. Crappy light

You don't know, what you are talking about. The Lumtec Fly IQ used here is
the brightest and best-shaped light for hub dynamos you can find. Will
beat most 20 W halogen lights!

Andreas

[A Muzi]

>> "Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>> Wired has a nice article about how non-sport bikes are hot sellers again:
>>> http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/news/2007/09/interbike_urbanbikers
>>> "City Bike" Hot New Category at Bicycle Industry Show

> BobT" <RobertLeeTaylorCUT@THISSuddenLink.net> writes:
>> Oh no!
>> My commuter/touring bike and I might become hip!

Tom Keats wrote:
> Not if you're over a certain age and your bike is
> under a certain age.
> Actually, I doubt touring bikes will ever become hip.
> But then, ya never know.

You missed it! That was so 1978.
Another bike shop manager marvelled at the 'touring' fad at the time and
commented to me "We could sell dog turds in plastic bags if they were
marked 'touring'".
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Keats]

In article <1191059996.664844.63450@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> writes:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>> are no lights supplied until you get all the way up to their top-of-the-line
>> model, the World Adventure-http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.
>
> They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
> *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!!

People like to screw around with stuff.
That's why there are so many twisty-turny
knobs on sound system equipment.

> Are they on crack? (I mean,
> this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
> combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)

I think it's /customers/ of whom are being spoken.
Whatever they're (we're) on is anybody's guess.

Anyways, throw some features in, and up the price, and
yer off 'n runnin'.

At least it doesn't have slidy-outy coffee cup holders.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[A Muzi]

> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> are no lights supplied until you get all the way up to their top-of-the-line
>> model, the World Adventure-http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.

Chalo wrote:
> They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
> *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!! Are they on crack? (I mean,
> this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
> combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)

Or just PCP and toluene? Sky Yaeger isn't at Bianchi any longer.
Bianchi also has an internal gear bike with the wrong ends and a
tensioner for 2008. Whatever for? Why, 'urban bike' with disc brake of
course.
O tempora, O mores.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Konstantin Shemyak]

On 2007-09-29, Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.
>
> They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
> *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!!

It's not only "they". It's Shimano Alfine group: gear hub plus
double crank (with a front derailer). Technically hardly justified,
commercially - nice name makes for it, it sells.

Konstantin Shemyak

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> At least it doesn't have slidy-outy coffee cup holders.

You can make fun of cup holders all you want, but people sometimes decide
with $23k car to buy based on how many cupholders it has. The bike industry
could do far worse than incorporate the means to easily carry your Starbucks
or Peets coffee back home.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Tom Keats" <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ibaldf.dl2.ln@vcn.bc.ca...
> In article <1191059996.664844.63450@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> writes:
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>
>>> are no lights supplied until you get all the way up to their
>>> top-of-the-line
>>> model, the World
>>> Adventure-http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.
>>
>> They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
>> *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!!
>
> People like to screw around with stuff.
> That's why there are so many twisty-turny
> knobs on sound system equipment.
>
>> Are they on crack? (I mean,
>> this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
>> combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)
>
> I think it's /customers/ of whom are being spoken.
> Whatever they're (we're) on is anybody's guess.
>
> Anyways, throw some features in, and up the price, and
> yer off 'n runnin'.
>
> At least it doesn't have slidy-outy coffee cup holders.
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> I'm really at:
> tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Jay Beattie]

On Sep 29, 8:43 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >> are no lights supplied until you get all the way up to their top-of-the-line
> >> model, the World Adventure-http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.
> Chalo wrote:
> > They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
> > *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!! Are they on crack? (I mean,
> > this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
> > combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)
>
> Or just PCP and toluene? Sky Yaeger isn't at Bianchi any longer.
> Bianchi also has an internal gear bike with the wrong ends and a
> tensioner for 2008. Whatever for? Why, 'urban bike' with disc brake of
> course.
> O tempora, O mores.

Well, the frame does give you the option to change over to a
conventional derailleur arrangement if you like -- and as a
manufacturer, you can use the same frame for a lot of models. It looks
to me like Schwinn just took a hybrid frame and hung a bunch of trick
stuff on it -- going the kludge route to use the internal geared hub.
At that price point, personally, I would rather have a Pilot or a
Portland. -- Jay Beattie.

[Chalo]

A Muzi wrote:
>
> Bianchi also has an internal gear bike with the wrong ends and a
> tensioner for 2008. Whatever for? Why, 'urban bike' with disc brake of
> course.
> O tempora, O mores.

I see, I guess. That seems like a reason to use sliding dropouts
(with caliper tabs), not vertical ones.

One of the best things about using a gearhub IMO is a tidy, trouble-
free chainline with no chain dumping and no great-balls-o'-filth
pulleys.

Chalo

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:43:58 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> are no lights supplied until you get all the way up to their top-of-the-line
>>> model, the World Adventure-http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=954.
>
>Chalo wrote:
>> They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
>> *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!! Are they on crack? (I mean,
>> this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
>> combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)
>
>Or just PCP and toluene? Sky Yaeger isn't at Bianchi any longer.
>Bianchi also has an internal gear bike with the wrong ends and a
>tensioner for 2008. Whatever for? Why, 'urban bike' with disc brake of
>course.
>O tempora, O mores.
It's a case of "run what you brung" and they haven't built a frame
with horizontal dropouts for quite some time - at least not the type
of frame they are using for the "townies"
Simpler to test the waters with a gearhub by installing a tensioner
(gutted deraileur) than re-engineering the frames.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Andrew Muzi mused:
>>
> Chalo wrote:
>> They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
>> *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!! Are they on crack? (I mean,
>> this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
>> combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)
>
> Or just PCP and toluene?...

Local knowledge?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Tom Keats]

In article <gTuLi.3314$6p6.3298@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> At least it doesn't have slidy-outy coffee cup holders.
>
> You can make fun of cup holders all you want,

Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
electric card shufflers, etc. But Western Civilization
really hit the skids with the advent of cable TV and handheld
remote controls, so people could watch such pap as infomercials
about auto-shifting bicycles.

I /won't/ make fun of no-draft windows on cars, nor
manual chokes. Those relics were actually practical.

> but people sometimes decide
> with $23k car to buy based on how many cupholders it has.

They're nutz. We're all nutz. I'm inclined to buy the
brand that has a picture of a lion or tiger or other
feline on the packaging. How I sorely miss Standard Lager !
How I luv Tiger Sauce[tm]. How I'm now considering doing
a run to the tobacconist's for a tin of Panter cigarellos,
and maybe pick up a bottle of Chat Noir (both of which go
quite well after a lasagna feeding frenzy.)

The art of marketing is to circumvent peoples' sensibleness
and appeal instead to their base instincts. The art of being
a consumer is to (try to) remain sensible. Marketing/consuming
is such an adversarial relationship. And there're the business
folks like yourself -- clowns to the left of you, jokers to the
right ... stuck in the middle of it. You have my utmost respect
and my deepest condolences. Reconciling marketeering and consuming
must be the most demanding art of all.

> The bike industry
> could do far worse than incorporate the means to easily carry your Starbucks
> or Peets coffee back home.

It's called a Thermos[tm]. They've been around awhile ;-)
There're probably electrified/mechanised/motorized versions now.


cheers,
Tom

That stuff makes the best redeyes.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Gooserider]

"Andreas Oehler" <andreas.oehler@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:470b84e7.963311759@n.nabendynamo.de...
> Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:43 -0400, Gooserider:
>
>>>> $1900 Breezer Finesse. You're welcome.
>>>
>>> $1900 and no chain guard? Fail.
>>
>>. Crappy light
>
> You don't know, what you are talking about. The Lumtec Fly IQ used here is
> the brightest and best-shaped light for hub dynamos you can find. Will
> beat most 20 W halogen lights!
>

Will it beat the DiNotte 200L? The NiteRider Minewt? I'm sure Frank
Krygowski will chime in---but more lumens are better. The only case in which
dynamo lights would be superior, in my mind, is touring. Otherwise, a good
LED rechargeable system is going to give you more light. Now, if I was
touring, or going to be places without access to electricity for long
stretches, then I'd run the dynamo.

The high-end luxury hybrid commuter is a product desperately seeking a
market. Trek lost a LOT of money trying that. I remember seeing Trek L200s
being blown out for $350. Bike shops aren't going to play that game again.

[BobT]

"Andreas Oehler" <andreas.oehler@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:470b84e7.963311759@n.nabendynamo.de...
> Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:43 -0400, Gooserider:
>
>>>> $1900 Breezer Finesse. You're welcome.
>>>
>>> $1900 and no chain guard? Fail.
>>
>>. Crappy light
>
> You don't know, what you are talking about. The Lumtec Fly IQ used here is
> the brightest and best-shaped light for hub dynamos you can find. Will
> beat most 20 W halogen lights!
>
> Andreas
Your comment stimulated me to look at the B&M site. Looks like a really
great light. I might want to replace my Schmidt E6 and B&M Lumotec N Plus
halogen lights with this LED light depending on the price.

Do you know anything about when and where I could buy one of these lights.
I live in the U.S.A.. Searching the B&M site and Peter White's site didn't
help answer this question.

BobT

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Sep 29, 2:13 pm, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sure Frank Krygowski will chime in---but more lumens are better.

Well, I don't want to disappoint you! ;-)

But "more lumens are better" is a much too simplistic way of
evaluating a headlight. Where you put those lumens is at least as
important. I learned that after a friend bought a fairly expensive
rechargeable halogen headlight set that was nowhere near as useful as
my "nothing special" generator set.

Others have talked of riding Paris-Brest-Paris using their SON/Lumotec
sets and having the "rechargeable" brigade ride behind them, because
they could see better by the SON's light.

> The only case in which
> dynamo lights would be superior, in my mind, is touring. Otherwise, a good
> LED rechargeable system is going to give you more light. Now, if I was
> touring, or going to be places without access to electricity for long
> stretches, then I'd run the dynamo.

I agree, I wouldn't tour without a dynamo light. (I made that mistake
once or twice, and won't repeat it.) But for me, the dynamo is
absolutely the most practical electricity source for a
transportational bike like those being discussed.

Would you really put up a rechargeable headlight system in any other
transportation vehicle? "Sorry, honey, we'll have to walk home from
the movie. I forgot to recharge my car's headlights."

- Frank Krygowski

[Andreas Oehler]

Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:13:36 -0400, Gooserider:

>"Andreas Oehler" <andreas.oehler@gmx.de> wrote in message
>> Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:43 -0400, Gooserider:
>>
>>>>> $1900 Breezer Finesse. You're welcome.

>>>. Crappy light
>>
>> You don't know, what you are talking about. The Lumtec Fly IQ used here is
>> the brightest and best-shaped light for hub dynamos you can find. Will
>> beat most 20 W halogen lights!
>>
>
>Will it beat the DiNotte 200L? The NiteRider Minewt?

I haven't had the possibility to try out those lamps - so I won't call
them "crappy"... But I presume they have the usual cheap and simple
rotational symmetric optics, which are by principle far from optimal for
illuminating the road ahead in an efficient way.

> more lumens are better.

Only if you shape the beam in an appropriate and efficient way. A laser
pointer with as much lumens as you might get won't help you much - similar
a naked 200 Watt bulb... Rotational symmetric optics in most cases mean
half of the lumens is wasted up into the sky and the eyes of uncoming
cyclists. It also often means too bright light nearby disturnbing your
night vision for illuminated object further away.

> The only case in which
>dynamo lights would be superior, in my mind, is touring.

Touring is mostly done during the day and the extra hassle of a battery
lamp is no problem because yoi have all the time in the world. If you are
carrying a tent you might also have the advantage of using the battery
lamp to read after dark. I use a dynamo-chraged battery lamp for touring.

But here in town I have other things to care for than to look after my
lights. If I always have to mount and dismont the lamps on every stop
(shopping at three differnt shops, going to the library, restaurant,
friends, sport, ...) I would go cracy!

>Otherwise, a good
>LED rechargeable system is going to give you more light.

I don´t think so. Where are all the battery powered LED lights with newest
technology LEDs and well engineered optics? I just know stupid pocket
torches with inappropriate optics (for road riding) and inefficient
electronics.

> Now, if I was
>touring, or going to be places without access to electricity for long
>stretches, then I'd run the dynamo.

How do you handle your usual dayly ways (shopping, visiting friends, etc.)
in regard of lights? Fidling with the lights 5 times per day?

>The high-end luxury hybrid commuter is a product desperately seeking a
>market.

Fully equipped hybrids (in the 750-2000 Euro price range) are a big market
here in germany. They are at least as important as racing bikes now. On
the road lower-end hybrids (equipped with Alivio to Deore or 7-speed
hub-gears) are dominant.

Every morning I see the mayor of my city riding the 3 km to his office in
the town hall on his hybrid...

> Trek lost a LOT of money trying that.

Trek owns the german manufacturer Diamant - and they more or less only
make hybrids. I don't think they are loosing money.

>I remember seeing Trek L200s
>being blown out for $350. Bike shops aren't going to play that game again.

It might take a few years until people (and especially city planners) in
the US recognise, that it is better to overcome the old strategy of
separating habitation, work and shopping so much.

Andreas

[SMS]

Gooserider wrote:

> Will it beat the DiNotte 200L? The NiteRider Minewt? I'm sure Frank
> Krygowski will chime in---but more lumens are better. The only case in which
> dynamo lights would be superior, in my mind, is touring. Otherwise, a good
> LED rechargeable system is going to give you more light. Now, if I was
> touring, or going to be places without access to electricity for long
> stretches, then I'd run the dynamo.

The problem with most of the dynamo lights is they are a _big_
compromise in terms of optics. They illuminate a very limited area very
well, but don't have sufficient peripheral illumination. They do the
best they can with the limited available power from the dynamo.

I was pleased to see the SolidLights 1203D
("http://www.solidlights.co.uk/products/1203d.php") which appears to be
the first dynamo LED light with sufficient power, and optics which
provide an optimal beam for cycling.

For touring, if you plan to to long amounts of night riding then I guess
a dynamo light is a good idea, but most touring is daytime riding. Since
you have to carry a flashlight anyway then you may as well get a better
light that can serve two purposes.

I'd be more interested in a commute bicycle with a 3W Cree LED light (or
two for the Son hub dynamo), than a touring set-up.

[SMS]

Don Wiss wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:05:00 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Let's just say it's extremely rare (like never), to see one of these
>> commute bikes out at night using only the dynamo lights.
>
> Not true here in NYC. Most here commute with no front light at all. I use a
> dynamo light. We don't need more. All streets have street lights.
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides> (e-mail link at page bottom).

That's true, on well lit streets like in NYC you can get by with
whatever keeps you legal. Around here there are quite a few Breezer's
around but the commutes are such that everyone puts better lights on them.

[Don Wiss]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:55:57 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>Don Wiss wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:05:00 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Let's just say it's extremely rare (like never), to see one of these
>>> commute bikes out at night using only the dynamo lights.
>>
>> Not true here in NYC. Most here commute with no front light at all. I use a
>> dynamo light. We don't need more. All streets have street lights.

>That's true, on well lit streets like in NYC you can get by with
>whatever keeps you legal. Around here there are quite a few Breezer's
>around but the commutes are such that everyone puts better lights on them.

Well, to be legal here one needs lights, but it is never enforced. So
headlights are rare. Blinkie tail lights are more common, but it is far
from universal.

To change the subject. In Europe (at least in The Netherlands) tail lights
can't blink. Is this technically also true in the US?

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

[Steve Gravrock]

On 2007-09-29, Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:

> To change the subject. In Europe (at least in The Netherlands) tail lights
> can't blink. Is this technically also true in the US?

It varies from state to state. In my neck of the woods a blinking tail
light is illegal, but I've never heard of it being enforced.

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:22:18 -0400, Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:55:57 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>Don Wiss wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:05:00 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Let's just say it's extremely rare (like never), to see one of these
>>>> commute bikes out at night using only the dynamo lights.
>>>
>>> Not true here in NYC. Most here commute with no front light at all. I use a
>>> dynamo light. We don't need more. All streets have street lights.
>
>>That's true, on well lit streets like in NYC you can get by with
>>whatever keeps you legal. Around here there are quite a few Breezer's
>>around but the commutes are such that everyone puts better lights on them.
>
>Well, to be legal here one needs lights, but it is never enforced. So
>headlights are rare. Blinkie tail lights are more common, but it is far
>from universal.
>
>To change the subject. In Europe (at least in The Netherlands) tail lights
>can't blink. Is this technically also true in the US?
Technically true in Ontario Canada, but not enforced. Even the
bike-mounted cops use blinkies.
>
>Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[SMS]

Don Wiss wrote:

> To change the subject. In Europe (at least in The Netherlands) tail lights
> can't blink. Is this technically also true in the US?

Each state makes their own rules, but most adhere to the uniform vehicle
code for stuff like this. It's not perfectly clear whether flashing red
lights are permitted on bicycles, or if bicycles are treated like motor
vehicles. Some states have explicitly permitted bicycles to have a
flashing red light in the rear (i.e. Ohio), see
"http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.56".

The original flashing lights, the Belt Beacon and Ed Kearny's "barricade
light" were yellow because yellow flashers are in a gray area of "slow
moving vehicle."

Of course none of this is enforced. If you put a flashing blue light on
your bicycle then I think you might have a chance of getting stopped by
the police.

[Don Wiss]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:

>Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
>that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
>fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
>electric card shufflers, etc.

Actually electric toothbrushes can be useful as they generally will do a
better job then you can do by hand. One thing that is useless, like the
other two you list, is electric can openers. And then maybe electric
knives, though I've never used one.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

[Paul O]

Tom Keats wrote:
<snip>
> I /won't/ make fun of no-draft windows on cars, nor
> manual chokes. Those relics were actually practical.
>
<snip>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
Manual chokes are very practical - if you have a carburetor.
I'll stick with my modern, more reliable fuel-injected engine. Thank you
very much. ;-)

--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)

[Michael Press]

In article <sdnmdf.583.ln@vcn.bc.ca>,
tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:

> In article <gTuLi.3314$6p6.3298@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >> At least it doesn't have slidy-outy coffee cup holders.
> >
> > You can make fun of cup holders all you want,
>
> Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
> that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
> fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
> electric card shufflers, etc. But Western Civilization
> really hit the skids with the advent of cable TV and handheld
> remote controls, so people could watch such pap as infomercials
> about auto-shifting bicycles.

The right electric toothbrush is a boon. I can get
better results with less effort, the results measured
by my dentists reports. The electric toothbrush gives
me much better results, and I was doing good with the
(properly chosen) manual toothbrush.

I had always wanted an electric pencil sharpener, and
the day I got it made me very happy. To this day using
it makes me happy. Well worth it for me.

--
Michael Press

[Gooserider]

<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191115844.518640.197920@r29g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Sep 29, 2:13 pm, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm sure Frank Krygowski will chime in---but more lumens are better.
>
> Well, I don't want to disappoint you! ;-)
>
> But "more lumens are better" is a much too simplistic way of
> evaluating a headlight. Where you put those lumens is at least as
> important. I learned that after a friend bought a fairly expensive
> rechargeable halogen headlight set that was nowhere near as useful as
> my "nothing special" generator set.
>
> Others have talked of riding Paris-Brest-Paris using their SON/Lumotec
> sets and having the "rechargeable" brigade ride behind them, because
> they could see better by the SON's light.
>
>> The only case in which
>> dynamo lights would be superior, in my mind, is touring. Otherwise, a
>> good
>> LED rechargeable system is going to give you more light. Now, if I was
>> touring, or going to be places without access to electricity for long
>> stretches, then I'd run the dynamo.
>
> I agree, I wouldn't tour without a dynamo light. (I made that mistake
> once or twice, and won't repeat it.) But for me, the dynamo is
> absolutely the most practical electricity source for a
> transportational bike like those being discussed.
>
> Would you really put up a rechargeable headlight system in any other
> transportation vehicle? "Sorry, honey, we'll have to walk home from
> the movie. I forgot to recharge my car's headlights."
>
> - Frank Krygowski

That's why you always carry a spare set. I carry lithium AAs in my pack as
backup, too. I will never be more than an hour's ride from home at
night---on my commute, that is.

Hey, maybe I'm simplistic, but I want to be as close to a motor vehicle's
headlight/taillight as possible.

The B&M Big Bang looks like the ultimate, but it's way too expensive and it
looks like it weighs a ton.

But, when I set up my touring bike---Schmidt SON and Lumotecs. Definitely.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <q24uf39689fdgfv88gcvveb682pk0kcolc@4ax.com>,
Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> >Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
> >that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
> >fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
> >electric card shufflers, etc.
>
> Actually electric toothbrushes can be useful as they generally will do a
> better job then you can do by hand. One thing that is useless, like the
> other two you list, is electric can openers.

I suspect electric can openers have their merits in industrial settings
of some sort, and I suspect that there's a surprisingly large minority
of people who don't have the manual dexterity to open a can by hand.

The combination of arthritis and typical grip-strength degeneration in
old age must be especially potent here.

Can't speak to electric backscratchers, but electric card shufflers are
generally way faster than humans. even some casinos use them; I've seen
table games dealt with alternating decks, where the pre-shuffled second
deck pops out of a hole in the table:

http://www.proshuffler.com/products.html

That's being sold as a consumer version, but the physical interface is
essentially what I saw mounted into the table. If there was a LED
display, it was not on the table, but I suspect it was in a
dealer-visible area.

More importantly, electric shufflers are fast. I'm not saying we should
always strive to maximize throughput in our leisure activities, but
surely shuffling the cards is one of the more tedious elements of most
poker nights.

I recall that the first time I played solitaire on a computer, I noted
that the computer-speed shuffling and dealing essentially meant the game
was better than playing with real cards. That said, I won't argue with
such aesthetes who like the feel of real cards in their actual hands.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[SMS]

Don Wiss wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>> Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
>> that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
>> fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
>> electric card shufflers, etc.
>
> Actually electric toothbrushes can be useful as they generally will do a
> better job then you can do by hand. One thing that is useless, like the
> other two you list, is electric can openers. And then maybe electric
> knives, though I've never used one.
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Electric knives are useful when cutting up things like turkeys or large
roasts. Also good for cutting homemade bread without destroying the loaf.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <q24uf39689fdgfv88gcvveb682pk0kcolc@4ax.com>,
Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> >Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones that
> >slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make fun of
> >electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers, electric card
> >shufflers, etc.
>
> Actually electric toothbrushes can be useful as they generally will
> do a better job then you can do by hand.

I looked this up once and found that most of the research indicated that
a standard Oral-B toothbrush worked as well or better than electric
toothbrushes, once the test subjects were taught proper brushing
technique.

[anth]

On Sat, 2007-09-29 at 22:58 -0400, Don Wiss wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> >Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
> >that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
> >fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
> >electric card shufflers, etc.
>
> Actually electric toothbrushes can be useful as they generally will do a
> better job then you can do by hand. One thing that is useless, like the
> other two you list, is electric can openers. And then maybe electric
> knives, though I've never used one.

My grandmother thinks her electric can opener is great. Thanks to
arthritis she can't open a can without it.

[Tom Keats]

In article <46ff2358$0$26410$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@iinvalid.com> writes:
> Andrew Muzi mused:
>>>
>> Chalo wrote:
>>> They put vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner on a bike that comes
>>> *from the factory* with a gearhub?!?!! Are they on crack? (I mean,
>>> this is Pacific Cycle we're talking about, so it's probably a
>>> combination of betel nut and counterfeit Valium, but still... WTF?)
>>
>> Or just PCP and toluene?...
>
> Local knowledge?

Around here, and especially at this time of year,
"local knowledge" is about the best places in which
to harvest mushrooms.

And no, I'm not even gonna drop any hints.
Mushroom-pickin' places are sacrosanct,
'n that's that.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article <rcousine-DD9952.22590529092007@news.telus.net>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> writes:
> In article <q24uf39689fdgfv88gcvveb682pk0kcolc@4ax.com>,
> Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>
>> >Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
>> >that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
>> >fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
>> >electric card shufflers, etc.
>>
>> Actually electric toothbrushes can be useful as they generally will do a
>> better job then you can do by hand.

That's a crock o' you-know-what, and you know it.


>
> More importantly, electric shufflers are fast. I'm not saying we should
> always strive to maximize throughput
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I work in a logistics centre. Maximizing throughput is largely what
retaining my job is all about. Throughput & turnover.

How nice it is, to get home, kick off the workboots, and forget
about throughput and turnover, and just be a human bean. Albeit
tired, worn-out, and having sore feet and various other maladies
like a plantar callus right behind the little piggie who didn't
have roast beef, around which we must surround with Dr Scholl's
sticky O-rings.

Maybe sometimes we should minimize throughput & turnover.
We're not machines. Especially not minimum-wage machines.

Humanity requires an human touch.

As you know, bicycles respond to the human touch quite well,
as do canoes & kayaks.

Remember dial telephones? Those responded to one's touch, too.
At least, they appeared to. (Actually I remember party lines.)


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article <46ff5877$0$70436$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> writes:
> Don Wiss wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, I will. At least, the mechanised/motorized ones
>>> that slide out like a CD player tray. I also like to make
>>> fun of electric toothbrushes, electric backscratchers,
>>> electric card shufflers, etc.
>>
>> Actually electric toothbrushes can be useful as they generally will do a
>> better job then you can do by hand. One thing that is useless, like the
>> other two you list, is electric can openers. And then maybe electric
>> knives, though I've never used one.
>>
>> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
>
> Electric knives are useful when cutting up things like turkeys or large
> roasts. Also good for cutting homemade bread without destroying the loaf.

It seems you don't know how to sharpen a kitchen carving knife,
nor the cooling stage at which to carve or cut cooked stuff.
It's an ancient, time-honoured skill which predates electric
gadgetry.



--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <rcousine-DD9952.22590529092007@news.telus.net>,
> Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> writes:
>> In article <q24uf39689fdgfv88gcvveb682pk0kcolc@4ax.com>,
>> Don Wiss <donwiss@no_spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, tkeats2005@hotmai