lessee...Sram Red group...1st sub 2000g

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.

ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
1960 grams...

Is my calculator made in Italy???

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 29, 3:37 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> 1960 grams...
>
> Is my calculator made in Italy???

1978g...after a 3rd add..I did go to the Unviversity of Colorado..so I
can't read or write or count....

[bfd]

On Sep 29, 3:37 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> 1960 grams...
>
> Is my calculator made in Italy???

Wow, I must be old, I remember when "group" or "gruppo" included a
seatpost, hubs and headset!

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <1191105431.213580.101920@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:

> I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> 1960 grams...
>
> Is my calculator made in Italy???

No, but Campy's scales are?

Or rather, that was the joke I was going to make, until I checked the
Weight Weenies component weight lists:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings.php

I just sampled the Fder, Rder, BB, and cassette listings. In most cases,
the Campy parts varied from their claimed weights by virtually nothing;
certainly little enough to suggest that scale error was as likely a
cause as anything.

But the Integrated BB cups on a Campy Ultra-Torque drivetrain apparently
weigh 16% more than spec (57g vs. 49g claimed).

In other words, Maybe SRAM is playing shenanigans, maybe Campy is, and
maybe both are. Pretty keen bragging rights, though; I wonder if Campy
will even respond?

It would not surprise me if Campy chose not to. To a certain extent,
responding would only validate the challenge from (in the road-group
market) tiny SRAM.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Lou Holtman]

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
> I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> 1960 grams...
>
> Is my calculator made in Italy???
>


I trust only the numbers my scale produces. Production tolerances seem
to be always to the heaver side, although Campy numbers are very
accurate so far.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

[andresmuro@aol.com]

On Sep 29, 4:37 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> 1960 grams...
>
> Is my calculator made in Italy???

The SRAM shifter is weird, in my opinion. Same lever to upshift and
downshift, and in the same direction. If you want to shift up the cog,
you do one click. If you want to shift down, you do two clicks. If I
am tired, in the middle of a fast moving pack, suddenly surging, I
don't know how well I could handle that. anyways, I am happy with my
Veloce triple.

Andres

[smokeystrodtman@gmail.com]

On Sep 29, 6:32 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> On Sep 29, 3:37 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
>
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> > ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> > 1960 grams...
>
> > Is my calculator made in Italy???
>
> 1978g...after a 3rd add..I did go to the Unviversity of Colorado..so I
> can't read or write or count....

I think Buycycling also found that Record was under 2,000 grams.

Smokey

[Chalo]

bfd wrote:
>
> Wow, I must be old, I remember when "group" or "gruppo" included a
> seatpost, hubs and headset!

That was back in the "fistful of seatpost" days. These days you don't
know whether someone needs six inches of seatpost or a foot and a
half.

Be glad that "gruppo" merchants don't include hubs. They'd supply
them with proprietary rims and spokes attached!

As for headsets, do you want 1", 1.125", 1.125" upper and 1.5" lower,
external, internal, integrated...?

Didn't a gruppo used to come with pedals too?

Chalo

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <1191119843.641942.60790@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:

> bfd wrote:
> >
> > Wow, I must be old, I remember when "group" or "gruppo" included a
> > seatpost, hubs and headset!
>
> That was back in the "fistful of seatpost" days. These days you don't
> know whether someone needs six inches of seatpost or a foot and a
> half.
>
> Be glad that "gruppo" merchants don't include hubs. They'd supply
> them with proprietary rims and spokes attached!
>
> As for headsets, do you want 1", 1.125", 1.125" upper and 1.5" lower,
> external, internal, integrated...?
>
> Didn't a gruppo used to come with pedals too?
>
> Chalo

It almost certainly did, in the days before clipless pedals, which have
led to a pedal and cleat (and sometimes even shoe) proliferation that
would make the headset vendors pale in fear.

I think that clipless, for a pretty big subset of what tends to end up
being called "serious" riders (or some synonym that inevitably ends up
suggesting that my compatriots and I racing cyclocross in the park this
morning were serious riders, and the millions of daily riders who use
their bikes to commute or make a living are just kidding), are an
unalloyed benefit. The proliferation is an unfortunate side-effect of
being only a bit more than 20 years (more or less*) from the
introduction of clipless pedals: we're still innovating while we work on
winnowing the field (buh-bye, Shimano SPD-R, Look S2Mountain, Campy SGR,
and many more...)

I wonder if the narrowing of the grooppo to the drivetrain is an
unexpected side-effect of Shimano's Total Integration principles.
Basically, that meant that you hardly had any choice about sourcing
derailers and shifters from the same maker, and for a time rings and
cassettes really only came from the same makers as the derailers and
shifters. I can't explain away the crank with this theory. Or the brakes.

With that out of the way, it became clear that things like seatposts and
headsets were not, er, totally integrated, and the sense came that those
were free to vary. Also, in the depths of the CNC era, it was relatively
easy for small makers to do seatposts, but drivetrains were still pretty
tricky.

I would know nothing of this, plotting as I do to run Campy drivetrains
across Shimano cassettes, occasionally with a Shimano fder thrown in for
fun. Integration doesn't turn out to be total!

As an aside to this aside, I think that it's just not very common in
this era of sweetheart OEM deals to see components specified separately
from bicycles, which means that groups are often purchased a la carte by
retail customers, and for reasons probably related to Shimano's
disruption of Campy's lock on the high-end road group market (some
people here remember the days when "all-Campy" was just the done thing
for your "all 531 Butted" bike).

*I'm dating from the 1984 introduction of the Look PP65. The brilliant
Speedplay pedal museum points out the existence of clipless systems back
as far as 1970 (and further than that, in the never-caught-on era), but
the Look really was the first one to drive large masses of racers away
from clips and straps.

http://speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pedalmuseum.clipless

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[bfd]

On Sep 29, 7:37 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> bfd wrote:
>
> > Wow, I must be old, I remember when "group" or "gruppo" included a
> > seatpost, hubs and headset!
>
> That was back in the "fistful of seatpost" days. These days you don't
> know whether someone needs six inches of seatpost or a foot and a
> half.
>
Agree, but Campy use to offer several different size seatpins
depending on what size you needed.

> Be glad that "gruppo" merchants don't include hubs. They'd supply
> them with proprietary rims and spokes attached!
>
Hmmm, both Campy and Shimano still list hubs separately without rims
and spokes. Although I agree that the trend is to boutique wheels.

> As for headsets, do you want 1", 1.125", 1.125" upper and 1.5" lower,
> external, internal, integrated...?
>
Yes, Campy offers a threadless and integrated in 1" and 1.25," not
sure about the 1.5" size; in contrast, Shimano doesn't like paying
royalties, so the only headset it ever offered was a threaded headset
in 1". Apparently, the only Shimano headset still listed, at least in
the US, is the DA Track, p/n HP-7410:

http://tinyurl.com/35dslr

Shame, Shimano makes good headsets too.


> Didn't a gruppo used to come with pedals too?
>

That's right, groups use to come with pedals too!

[damyth]

On Sep 29, 10:23 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> In article <1191105431.213580.101...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> > ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> > 1960 grams...
>
> > Is my calculator made in Italy???
>
> No, but Campy's scales are?
>
> Or rather, that was the joke I was going to make, until I checked the
> Weight Weenies component weight lists:
>
> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings.php
>
> I just sampled the Fder, Rder, BB, and cassette listings. In most cases,
> the Campy parts varied from their claimed weights by virtually nothing;
> certainly little enough to suggest that scale error was as likely a
> cause as anything.
>
> But the Integrated BB cups on a Campy Ultra-Torque drivetrain apparently
> weigh 16% more than spec (57g vs. 49g claimed).
>
> In other words, Maybe SRAM is playing shenanigans, maybe Campy is, and
> maybe both are. Pretty keen bragging rights, though; I wonder if Campy
> will even respond?
>
> It would not surprise me if Campy chose not to. To a certain extent,
> responding would only validate the challenge from (in the road-group
> market) tiny SRAM.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Well, I suppose technically SRAM isn't stretching the truth (lying,
cough). It's just SRAM's group is incomplete compared to Campy and
Shimano.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <1191131916.136525.296790@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
damyth <mdk.10.damyth@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

> On Sep 29, 10:23 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > In article <1191105431.213580.101...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
> >
> > > ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> > > 1960 grams...
> >
> > > Is my calculator made in Italy???
> >
> > No, but Campy's scales are?
> >
> > Or rather, that was the joke I was going to make, until I checked the
> > Weight Weenies component weight lists:
> >
> > http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings.php
> >
> > I just sampled the Fder, Rder, BB, and cassette listings. In most cases,
> > the Campy parts varied from their claimed weights by virtually nothing;
> > certainly little enough to suggest that scale error was as likely a
> > cause as anything.
> >
> > But the Integrated BB cups on a Campy Ultra-Torque drivetrain apparently
> > weigh 16% more than spec (57g vs. 49g claimed).
> >
> > In other words, Maybe SRAM is playing shenanigans, maybe Campy is, and
> > maybe both are. Pretty keen bragging rights, though; I wonder if Campy
> > will even respond?
> >
> > It would not surprise me if Campy chose not to. To a certain extent,
> > responding would only validate the challenge from (in the road-group
> > market) tiny SRAM.
> >
> > --
> > Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> > "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> > to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
>
> Well, I suppose technically SRAM isn't stretching the truth (lying,
> cough). It's just SRAM's group is incomplete compared to Campy and
> Shimano.

I see what you're getting at, but I doubt that's it. If SRAM was really
comparing a drivetrain+brakes to drivetrain+brakes+seatpost, then that's
just ridiculous. It would be a little too lame if they were called on
it, and well, we're already calling them on it.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Hobbes@spnb&s.com]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:21:59 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:

>In article <1191119843.641942.60790@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> bfd wrote:
>> >
>> > Wow, I must be old, I remember when "group" or "gruppo" included a
>> > seatpost, hubs and headset!
>>
>> That was back in the "fistful of seatpost" days. These days you don't
>> know whether someone needs six inches of seatpost or a foot and a
>> half.
>>
>> Be glad that "gruppo" merchants don't include hubs. They'd supply
>> them with proprietary rims and spokes attached!
>>
>> As for headsets, do you want 1", 1.125", 1.125" upper and 1.5" lower,
>> external, internal, integrated...?
>>
>> Didn't a gruppo used to come with pedals too?
>>
>> Chalo
>
>It almost certainly did, in the days before clipless pedals, which have
>led to a pedal and cleat (and sometimes even shoe) proliferation that
>would make the headset vendors pale in fear.
>
>I think that clipless, for a pretty big subset of what tends to end up
>being called "serious" riders (or some synonym that inevitably ends up
>suggesting that my compatriots and I racing cyclocross in the park this
>morning were serious riders, and the millions of daily riders who use
>their bikes to commute or make a living are just kidding), are an
>unalloyed benefit. The proliferation is an unfortunate side-effect of
>being only a bit more than 20 years (more or less*) from the
>introduction of clipless pedals: we're still innovating while we work on
>winnowing the field (buh-bye, Shimano SPD-R, Look S2Mountain, Campy SGR,
>and many more...)
>
>I wonder if the narrowing of the grooppo to the drivetrain is an
>unexpected side-effect of Shimano's Total Integration principles.
>Basically, that meant that you hardly had any choice about sourcing
>derailers and shifters from the same maker, and for a time rings and
>cassettes really only came from the same makers as the derailers and
>shifters. I can't explain away the crank with this theory. Or the brakes.

I'd think forging was the hurdle for cranks and brake arms. You need serious
volume to make that practical. That sorta went away with the advent of CNC and
really nice billets of aluminum. Until forging again reasserted its advantages
for those products.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 30, 12:24 am, Lou Holtman <lholremovet...@planet.nl> wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.comwrote:
>
> > I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> > ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> > 1960 grams...
>
> > Is my calculator made in Italy???
>
> I trust only the numbers my scale produces. Production tolerances seem
> to be always to the heaver side, although Campy numbers are very
> accurate so far.
>
> Lou
> --
> Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Yep and the 'demand' for Red is non existent, so far in my shop....so
I haven't been able to actually weigh their stuff. STILL, I think the
function of Campag and their recognition of the foolishness and added
expense of ceramic trumps raw weight. I don't think the Red group
looks that good either..like it was designed in different places. I
know it is manufacturered all over.in different factories.

[Bill]

<andresmuro@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1191155361.135344.40300@y42g2000hsy.googlegro ups.com...
> On Sep 29, 4:37 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
> >
> > ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> > 1960 grams...
> >
> > Is my calculator made in Italy???
>
> The SRAM shifter is weird, in my opinion. Same lever to upshift and
> downshift, and in the same direction. If you want to shift up the cog,
> you do one click. If you want to shift down, you do two clicks. If I
> am tired, in the middle of a fast moving pack, suddenly surging, I
> don't know how well I could handle that. anyways, I am happy with my
> Veloce triple.
>
> Andres
>
Much to my pleasant surprise, weird it's not. I've ridden Shimano brifters
since the first 8 speed DuraAce. I have three Shimano brifter equipped
bikes, cross, winter beater and a nice steel Serotta. Built an EBay carbon
bike up with Force this spring and shipped it off for a week of riding in TX
hill country. One ride and I was trained. When I got home I hopped on a
trusty Shimano equipped bike and had a hell of a time adapting back to the
two lever system. I never have a moments confusion when I get on the SRAM
bike. I frequently try to "shift like SRAM" when I'm on a Shimano ride. For
some reason the SRAM is more intuitive for me.
Bill

[bookieb]

On Sep 30, 1:29 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip>
>If you want to shift up the cog,
> you do one click. If you want to shift down, you do two clicks.
<snip>
>
> Andres

Hi Andres,

To go shift down is that:
= the same click as "up", but done twice (like double click on a
mouse)
= or do you push the lever once, but it twice as far?

Regards,

bookieb

[damyth]

On Sep 30, 11:38 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> In article <1191131916.136525.296...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
>
>
>
> damyth <mdk.10.dam...@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 29, 10:23 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > > In article <1191105431.213580.101...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
> > > "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I added up the marketing numbers from Campagnolo twice, Record group.
>
> > > > ERGO levers, brakes, FD, RD, cogset, chain, BB and crank...and get
> > > > 1960 grams...
>
> > > > Is my calculator made in Italy???
>
> > > No, but Campy's scales are?
>
> > > Or rather, that was the joke I was going to make, until I checked the
> > > Weight Weenies component weight lists:
>
> > >http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings.php
>
> > > I just sampled the Fder, Rder, BB, and cassette listings. In most cases,
> > > the Campy parts varied from their claimed weights by virtually nothing;
> > > certainly little enough to suggest that scale error was as likely a
> > > cause as anything.
>
> > > But the Integrated BB cups on a Campy Ultra-Torque drivetrain apparently
> > > weigh 16% more than spec (57g vs. 49g claimed).
>
> > > In other words, Maybe SRAM is playing shenanigans, maybe Campy is, and
> > > maybe both are. Pretty keen bragging rights, though; I wonder if Campy
> > > will even respond?
>
> > > It would not surprise me if Campy chose not to. To a certain extent,
> > > responding would only validate the challenge from (in the road-group
> > > market) tiny SRAM.
>
> > > --
> > > Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> > > "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> > > to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
>
> > Well, I suppose technically SRAM isn't stretching the truth (lying,
> > cough). It's just SRAM's group is incomplete compared to Campy and
> > Shimano.
>
> I see what you're getting at, but I doubt that's it. If SRAM was really
> comparing a drivetrain+brakes to drivetrain+brakes+seatpost, then that's
> just ridiculous. It would be a little too lame if they were called on
> it, and well, we're already calling them on it.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Don't forget hubs as well. :)

[andresmuro@aol.com]

On Oct 2, 11:18 am, bookieb <tsgtest...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sep 30, 1:29 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> >If you want to shift up the cog,
> > you do one click. If you want to shift down, you do two clicks.
> <snip>
>
> > Andres
>
> Hi Andres,
>
> To go shift down is that:
> = the same click as "up", but done twice (like double click on a
> mouse)
> = or do you push the lever once, but it twice as far?
>
> Regards,
>
> bookieb

You have to feel it to understand it. It is not that difficult and
according to Bill (see above) it is pretty intuitive, once you get it.
There is only one lever behind the brake lever that you push inwards.
Light push with one click means up (to an easier gear). A firmer push
with two clicks makes the dérailleur go down to a heavier gear. don't
remember any more details such us upshifting or downshifting several
gears since I was screwing with a bike at a shop.

this is sort of from my recollection from tapping a shifter and
wondering where the other shifter was and the realizing that there was
only one. They are certainly expensive.

Andres

Andres