Wanted: BB cup jam nuts (Attn: LBS retail sales)

[!Jones]

Hello;

I'm using a Phil BB and cups in a build. (1.375 X 24, English).
There exist some "jam nuts" that screw onto the exposed thread of the
cup; they're probably cosmetic because Phil doesn't have them;
however, they do give the final assembly a nice, finished look.

Any of you LBS types have these? I have a shopping list of other
parts that I'm pretty sure you do have; I'd just like to find a pair
(LH/RH) of the jam nuts and order all of it at once.

Jones

[Hank Wirtz]

On Oct 2, 7:06 am, !Jones <swsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hello;
>
> I'm using a Phil BB and cups in a build. (1.375 X 24, English).
> There exist some "jam nuts" that screw onto the exposed thread of the
> cup; they're probably cosmetic because Phil doesn't have them;
> however, they do give the final assembly a nice, finished look.
>
> Any of you LBS types have these? I have a shopping list of other
> parts that I'm pretty sure you do have; I'd just like to find a pair
> (LH/RH) of the jam nuts and order all of it at once.
>
> Jones

Well, on the left side, you could just use a regular lockring. Don't
know of any reverse-threaded ones, though.

Once again, Peter Chisholm is right - Italian threading is far better,
because in this case, you could use two regular lockrings!

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Oct 2, 8:06 am, !Jones <swsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hello;
>
> I'm using a Phil BB and cups in a build. (1.375 X 24, English).
> There exist some "jam nuts" that screw onto the exposed thread of the
> cup; they're probably cosmetic because Phil doesn't have them;
> however, they do give the final assembly a nice, finished look.
>
> Any of you LBS types have these? I have a shopping list of other
> parts that I'm pretty sure you do have; I'd just like to find a pair
> (LH/RH) of the jam nuts and order all of it at once.
>
> Jones

Think you are talking about BB lockrings like found on adjustable cup
BBs but the Phils I have installed have the cups all the way into the
BB shell, with little/no threads showing so you wouldn't be able to
screw on a lockring anywho-

[SMS]

!Jones wrote:
> Hello;
>
> I'm using a Phil BB and cups in a build. (1.375 X 24, English).
> There exist some "jam nuts" that screw onto the exposed thread of the
> cup; they're probably cosmetic because Phil doesn't have them;
> however, they do give the final assembly a nice, finished look.
>
> Any of you LBS types have these? I have a shopping list of other
> parts that I'm pretty sure you do have; I'd just like to find a pair
> (LH/RH) of the jam nuts and order all of it at once.
>
> Jones
>

Is this what you're looking for:
"http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&ID=2294"?
or is it the wrong threading?

[!Jones]

On Oct 2, 10:56 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>
> Once again, Peter Chisholm is right - Italian threading is far better,
> because in this case, you could use two regular lockrings!

If you say so, then it must be right.

OTOH, the Wop threads have a 30 mm X 1 pitch, which isn't exactly what
I'd call "regular". A 1 3/16 X 24 lock ring will screw on if you
don't need a lot of torque; it'll be sloppy, though. (Yeah, I'll pick
a box of those up at my local hardware store, I will!) If I end up
cutting them, then it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. For
LH thread, you just reverse the spindle and turn the threading tool
over.

I have heard that argument before, but I don't see any clear reason to
say one or the other is better. The reverse threading on the Limey
BBs seems to make some sense, I guess... a little... maybe. OTOH, I
have seen RH cups forced into the left side or visa versa, a faux pas
that will seriously ruin the aspiring mechanic's day!

While we're here, let's discuss crank pullers! There's just enough
difference in them to strip a crank. I heard that the bike shops did
that so they could sell more cranks... it's a damn conspiracy, I
say!!!

Jones

[!Jones]

On Oct 2, 10:56 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:

> Once again, Peter Chisholm is right - Italian threading is far better,
> because in this case, you could use two regular lockrings!

I guess y'all are right... but I know that I have an old Phil BB with
two rings. Maybe someone added 'em later???

That's OK. I'll chuck up a piece of T6 and turn a set. They don't
actually *do* anything 'cept look cool. I'll get 'em black anodized
and they'll be slicker 'n boogers on a brass doorknob!

Jones

[!Jones]

On Oct 2, 12:33 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> Think you are talking about BB lockrings like found on adjustable cup
> BBs but the Phils I have installed have the cups all the way into the
> BB shell, with little/no threads showing so you wouldn't be able to
> screw on a lockring anywho-

Yup. If you glue the cups in with locktight, as one should, then
they're probably just cosmetic. My instalation caught enough thread
to hold 'em OK, but I have a fair amount of thread sticking out. The
bike is an antique and I mainly want it to look finished. I spoze I
can get on the lathe and make a set; however, if my time is worth
anything, it's generally easier simply to buy 'em. I have a Paramount
tandem with Phil BBs and it has lock rings... the Phil people acted
like they didn't know what I was talking about, though.

Jones

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Oct 2, 1:01 pm, !Jones <swsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 12:33 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
>
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > Think you are talking about BB lockrings like found on adjustable cup
> > BBs but the Phils I have installed have the cups all the way into the
> > BB shell, with little/no threads showing so you wouldn't be able to
> > screw on a lockring anywho-
>
> Yup. If you glue the cups in with locktight, as one should, then
> they're probably just cosmetic. My instalation caught enough thread
> to hold 'em OK, but I have a fair amount of thread sticking out. The
> bike is an antique and I mainly want it to look finished. I spoze I
> can get on the lathe and make a set; however, if my time is worth
> anything, it's generally easier simply to buy 'em. I have a Paramount
> tandem with Phil BBs and it has lock rings... the Phil people acted
> like they didn't know what I was talking about, though.
>
> Jones

I think you are going to have a tough time finding a lockring for the
right side, since it is left threaded(if english)..the right side is
easy..any english adjustable cup lockring.

Plus, I have never used loctite for Phil cups..just grease and 2
tools.

[!Jones]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 12:21:19 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech SMS
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>Is this what you're looking for:
>"http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&ID=2294"?
>or is it the wrong threading?

Yeah, that's half of what I had in mind. The other half had a left
thread... but, I'm convinced that it doesn't exist in our normal frame
of reference; therefore, I have cut a pair out of T6. All they do for
me is to hide the exposed threads, so... whatever that damn 'A' word
is, it works for me. "All-you-min-ee-yum" or something like that.

Maybe I'll make it outta magnesium next time. The main issue with
that stuff is that it burns easily and fiercely in a crash... and I'd
*hate* to go out in a blaze of glory!

Jones

[Hank Wirtz]

On Oct 2, 12:36 pm, !Jones <swsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 10:56 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Once again, Peter Chisholm is right - Italian threading is far better,
> > because in this case, you could use two regular lockrings!
>
> If you say so, then it must be right.
>
> OTOH, the Wop threads have a 30 mm X 1 pitch, which isn't exactly what
> I'd call "regular". A 1 3/16 X 24 lock ring will screw on if you
> don't need a lot of torque; it'll be sloppy, though. (Yeah, I'll pick
> a box of those up at my local hardware store, I will!) If I end up
> cutting them, then it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. For
> LH thread, you just reverse the spindle and turn the threading tool
> over.

Sorry, that's something of a running gag...Peter will say that Italian
threads are the best because they're Italian, and Sheldon or Jobst or
somebody else will jump all over him for it. I'm not sure that he
actually feels that way.

See http://tinyurl.com/yoqjz9

[!Jones]

On Oct 2, 3:11 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 12:36 pm, !Jones <swsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, that's something of a running gag...Peter will say that Italian
> threads are the best because they're Italian, and Sheldon or Jobst or
> somebody else will jump all over him for it. I'm not sure that he
> actually feels that way.

Oh, well... some people have strong feelings. Don't get me started
about my Bendix red-band "kick down" hubs. (When bicyclists were
*real* men... )

I don't think I got the size right on the Wop thread, anyway.
Something is bothering me about that major diameter... but I didn't
tell anyone to *do* anything!!!

Jones

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Oct 2, 2:11 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 12:36 pm, !Jones <swsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 2, 10:56 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>
> > > Once again, Peter Chisholm is right - Italian threading is far better,
> > > because in this case, you could use two regular lockrings!
>
> > If you say so, then it must be right.
>
> > OTOH, the Wop threads have a 30 mm X 1 pitch, which isn't exactly what
> > I'd call "regular". A 1 3/16 X 24 lock ring will screw on if you
> > don't need a lot of torque; it'll be sloppy, though. (Yeah, I'll pick
> > a box of those up at my local hardware store, I will!) If I end up
> > cutting them, then it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. For
> > LH thread, you just reverse the spindle and turn the threading tool
> > over.
>
> Sorry, that's something of a running gag...Peter will say that Italian
> threads are the best because they're Italian, and Sheldon or Jobst or
> somebody else will jump all over him for it. I'm not sure that he
> actually feels that way.
>
> Seehttp://tinyurl.com/yoqjz9

Of COURSE I feel that way..Italiano is a far superior threading
system....


tick, tick, tick...

[James Thomson]

"!Jones" <swsm1th@hotmail.com> a écrit:

> I don't think I got the size right on the Wop thread, anyway.
> Something is bothering me about that major diameter...

And the pitch. It's 36mm x 24tpi, my Kraut Mick friend.

Some Specialités TA bottom brackets use two lockrings:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/bottombrackets.asp

You may be able to order them as spare parts.

James Thomson

[A Muzi]

> Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>> Once again, Peter Chisholm is right - Italian threading is far better,
>> because in this case, you could use two regular lockrings!

!Jones wrote:
> I guess y'all are right... but I know that I have an old Phil BB with
> two rings. Maybe someone added 'em later???
> That's OK. I'll chuck up a piece of T6 and turn a set. They don't
> actually *do* anything 'cept look cool. I'll get 'em black anodized
> and they'll be slicker 'n boogers on a brass doorknob!

Maybe. Or your tandem BB is actually a Kajita or Suntour by Kajita which
was a common tandem piece in the 1980s and does have RH+LH lockrings.

Besides all that, Peter's right, Forza Italia!

http://www.italy-news.net/articoli/eng/articolo_06.php3
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[!Jones]

On Oct 2, 6:04 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> Maybe. Or your tandem BB is actually a Kajita or Suntour by Kajita which
> was a common tandem piece in the 1980s and does have RH+LH lockrings.

Naa, the BBs are Phil; I'm sure of that. Maybe someone just added the
lockrings?

I'm over it!

Jones

[!Jones]

On Oct 2, 6:13 pm, "James Thomson" <yosnap...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "!Jones" <swsm...@hotmail.com> a écrit:
>
> And the pitch. It's 36mm x 24tpi, my Kraut Mick friend.

Yeah, I thought 30mm wasn't right. Are you sure it's not a 1mm
thread? I mean, 1/24" is fairly close to a mimaleeter, as I recall...
hey! I don't have one (Praise the Lord!!!), so it isn't exactly the
burning issue of my life, but why would an otherwise perfectly
competent people (who gave the world pasta) call out a major in metric
then go to inches for the thread count? Why, I'd sooner mix my
metaphors than my units of distance.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Oct 3, 7:29 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> Plus, I have never used loctite for Phil cups..just grease and 2
> tools.

I usually read the directions, but only after I have screwed it up
twice... Phil's say to use the the locktite; they even provide a
little tube of "Phil approved" glue. I wonder if you can "sniff" it
if I don't need it for the cups?

Jones... who once, as a kid, tried to sniff Elmer's glue. (heard it
was "kicks", but I got it all over me face!)

[James Thomson]

"!Jones" <swsm1th@hotmail.com> a écrit:

> Are you sure it's not a 1mm thread?

Yes. Italian bicycle threads often mix metric diameters with imperial pitch,
e.g. 35mm x 24tpi for Italian freewheels, 10mm x 26tpi and 9mm x 26tpi for
Campagnolo axles.

> it isn't exactly the burning issue of my life, but why would an
> otherwise perfectly competent people (who gave the world
> pasta) call out a major in metric then go to inches for the
> thread count?

I've read that there was a time when the Italians bought their lathes from
the British.

James Thomson

[A Muzi]

> On Oct 2, 6:13 pm, "James Thomson" <yosnap...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "!Jones" <swsm...@hotmail.com> a écrit:
>> And the pitch. It's 36mm x 24tpi, my Kraut Mick friend.

!Jones wrote:
> Yeah, I thought 30mm wasn't right. Are you sure it's not a 1mm
> thread? I mean, 1/24" is fairly close to a mimaleeter, as I recall...
> hey! I don't have one (Praise the Lord!!!), so it isn't exactly the
> burning issue of my life, but why would an otherwise perfectly
> competent people (who gave the world pasta) call out a major in metric
> then go to inches for the thread count? Why, I'd sooner mix my
> metaphors than my units of distance.

Italian BB threads are 36mm x 24 tpi, 55 degree WW form.
After England invented industrialization, the Italians were right
behind, adopting metric diameters with Imperial pitch. Italian freewheel
thread is 35mm x 24tpi, also 55 degree WW form, headsets 25.4mm x 24tpi,
etc.
visual aids dep't:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/FWTHREAD.JPG

Swiss thread is perfectly logical. Which is why no one builds with it.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Exclamation Point Jones wrote:
> ...
> Jones... who once, as a kid, tried to sniff Elmer's glue. (heard it
> was "kicks", but I got it all over me face!)

If you like getting white sticky stuff from a bull, these people have a
job for you: <http://absglobal.com/>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[A Muzi]

>> On Oct 2, 12:36 pm, !Jones <swsm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 2, 10:56 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>>>> Once again, Peter Chisholm is right - Italian threading is far better,
>>>> because in this case, you could use two regular lockrings!
>>> If you say so, then it must be right.
>>> OTOH, the Wop threads have a 30 mm X 1 pitch, which isn't exactly what
>>> I'd call "regular". A 1 3/16 X 24 lock ring will screw on if you
>>> don't need a lot of torque; it'll be sloppy, though. (Yeah, I'll pick
>>> a box of those up at my local hardware store, I will!) If I end up
>>> cutting them, then it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. For
>>> LH thread, you just reverse the spindle and turn the threading tool
>>> over.

> Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>> Sorry, that's something of a running gag...Peter will say that Italian
>> threads are the best because they're Italian, and Sheldon or Jobst or
>> somebody else will jump all over him for it. I'm not sure that he
>> actually feels that way.
>> Seehttp://tinyurl.com/yoqjz9

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
> Of COURSE I feel that way..Italiano is a far superior threading
> system....
> tick, tick, tick...

Sure! Italian thread form has, uh, historical significance? Romance?

Since our industry's thread forms are all archaic and pointless, may as
well be Genuine Italian as any other. Note the cold purposeful logic of
Swiss thread format. Abandoned by our industry of course.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[!Jones]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:26:31 +0200, in rec.bicycles.tech "James
Thomson" <yosnappyj@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I've read that there was a time when the Italians bought their lathes from
>the British.

English engineering has always favored the aesthetic over the
functional design. Consider the Spitfire: IMO, the prettiest piece of
art ever to be lifted by the hand of God... no match for the ME109 in
combat, of course, unless the latter was out of fuel, but, by gwad, it
*looked* better.

So, then we had the English Standard thread, which wasn't really a
metric system at all, but a cryptographic message from space aliens.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:48:02 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech A Muzi
<am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Italian BB threads are 36mm x 24 tpi, 55 degree WW form.
>After England invented industrialization, the Italians were right
>behind, adopting metric diameters with Imperial pitch. Italian freewheel
>thread is 35mm x 24tpi, also 55 degree WW form, headsets 25.4mm x 24tpi,
>etc.

Well, that 55 degree bit is a common metric issue of which few know
much... or much is known by few... or the whole ****ing world wonders
why it's 55 degrees and not 60 degrees (pi/6), which makes *much* more
sense, giving the thread an equilatral triangle.

When you go to 55 degrees, you gotta ask if it's a male or female
thread you're cutting... then you have issues with the feminists on
the matter of sexism and do we really want *that* when all we're
trying to do is build a ****ing bicycle!!!???

Oh, well... you know how women are.

Jones... ducking for cover.

[Chalo]

A Muzi wrote:
>
> Note the cold purposeful logic of
> Swiss thread format. Abandoned by our industry of course.

Purposeful logic is the kind that says, "why the %@*% would you put
threads on an axle?"

Chalo

[SMS]

!Jones wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 12:21:19 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech SMS
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is this what you're looking for:
>> "http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&ID=2294"?
>> or is it the wrong threading?
>
> Yeah, that's half of what I had in mind. The other half had a left
> thread... but, I'm convinced that it doesn't exist in our normal frame
> of reference; therefore, I have cut a pair out of T6. All they do for
> me is to hide the exposed threads, so... whatever that damn 'A' word
> is, it works for me. "All-you-min-ee-yum" or something like that.

Did you actually have a tap to cut the threads on what you cut out? I
have a tap and die set, but nothing that large.

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Exclamation Point Jones wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:26:31 +0200, in rec.bicycles.tech "James
> Thomson" <yosnappyj@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've read that there was a time when the Italians bought their lathes from
>> the British.
>
> English engineering has always favored the aesthetic over the
> functional design. Consider the Spitfire: IMO, the prettiest piece of
> art ever to be lifted by the hand of God...

I passed a Spitfire on the way home today in my Honda. Oh, wait, that
was a Triumph Spitfire.

Not being pulled by a two-truck is good performance for a vintage
English car. :(

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[A Muzi]

> "James Thomson" <yosnappyj@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I've read that there was a time when the Italians bought their lathes from
>> the British.

!Jones wrote:
> English engineering has always favored the aesthetic over the
> functional design. Consider the Spitfire: IMO, the prettiest piece of
> art ever to be lifted by the hand of God... no match for the ME109 in
> combat, of course, unless the latter was out of fuel, but, by gwad, it
> *looked* better.
>
> So, then we had the English Standard thread, which wasn't really a
> metric system at all, but a cryptographic message from space aliens.

Not metric at all, Whitworth; designed by Joseph Whitworth, the first
broadly accepted thread standard. All else is revisionist!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Oct 3, 6:40 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> !Jones wrote:
> > On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 12:21:19 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech SMS
> > <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Is this what you're looking for:
> >> "http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&ID=2294"?
> >> or is it the wrong threading?
>
> > Yeah, that's half of what I had in mind. The other half had a left
> > thread... but, I'm convinced that it doesn't exist in our normal frame
> > of reference; therefore, I have cut a pair out of T6. All they do for
> > me is to hide the exposed threads, so... whatever that damn 'A' word
> > is, it works for me. "All-you-min-ee-yum" or something like that.
>
> Did you actually have a tap to cut the threads on what you cut out? I
> have a tap and die set, but nothing that large.

A machinist's first instinct would be to cut that type
of large, fine pitch lockring thread on a lathe, rather than
with a tap. At least, that's what I think, but I'm not really
a machinist, I only talk to them. Since the threads in
question are the same as BB shell threads, cutters do
exist in that size, in Campy tool chests. But you can
chuck a lockring blank in a lathe much easier than you
can chuck a frame, so the need for a cutter is obviated.

BTW, Jones, people such as LBSes would have more
of a clue about what you wanted if you called them BB
lockrings, not jam nuts. However, although the non-drive-side
item is common (RH thread, adjustable cup), the
drive-side item (LH thread for English BB) is very unusual
as the vast majority of traditional BBs used a fixed cup
and no lockring.

Ben

[!Jones]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:40:39 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech SMS
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>Did you actually have a tap to cut the threads on what you cut out? I
>have a tap and die set, but nothing that large.

Naa... you gotta do it on a lathe. It's like playing an old celluloid
record. You dial in what you want and take several passes.

Jones

[!Jones]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 03:51:52 -0000, in rec.bicycles.tech
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

>BTW, Jones, people such as LBSes would have more
>of a clue about what you wanted if you called them BB
>lockrings, not jam nuts.

OK, I'll do that. One man's jam nut is another man's lock ring.

Jones

[A Muzi]

> A Muzi wrote:
>> Note the cold purposeful logic of
>> Swiss thread format. Abandoned by our industry of course.

Chalo wrote:
> Purposeful logic is the kind that says, "why the %@*% would you put
> threads on an axle?"

I'm not sure I follow. It's an RH-reversed metric BB shell with matching
cups, m35x1G.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971