Finally I Meet An Intelligent Mountain Biker

[Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS]

Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will wake
the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.

[Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®]

"Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2001@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:Xns99CC5E8CC07Briemann1850yahoocom@216.168.3. 70...
> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will
> wake
> the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.

Well, I always thought my sqealing XT front v-brake was enough to give me
away instead of a bell.

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Oct 17, 2:34 am, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS"
<xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will wake
> the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.

Mikey? Is that you?

Anyway, I've got one of those devices. It's got a wide range of
tones, warnings and an adjustable volume control. It's also operated
hands free. I call it "my voice". I was going to get a patent, but
it seems I'm not the only one who has come up with this. Alas.

[bluezfolk]

On Oct 17, 1:34 am, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS"
<xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will wake
> the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.

Maybe if you keep at it long enough you'll even meet an intelligent
hiker someday.

[landotter]

On Oct 17, 1:34 am, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS"
<xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> was a biker and moved over.

I have a bell on the fixed gear I do laps with on the greenways--and
I'm not very bright. Don't make grand assumptions that us dingers are
smart.

/reinserts finger into nostril

[Dana Myers]

Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> coming around a sharp curve.

You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
little bell?

Dana

[Sir Thomas of Cannondale]

I carry a boat horn. Very, very loud.
What I like to do is sneak up on the poor victim. Get very close .. then
let em have it.

Scares the crap out of em.

======================
"Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2001@yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:Xns99CC5E8CC07Briemann1850yahoocom@216.168.3. 70...
> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will
> wake
> the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.

[Matt O'Toole]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 06:34:52 +0000, Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
wrote:

> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will wake
> the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.

I've used one for 15 years. Bells are so much cheerier than, "On your
left!"

Matt O.

[idomybestworkonabike@hotmail.com]

On Oct 17, 6:01 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®"
<b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> messagenews:Xns99CC5E8CC07Briemann1850yahoocom@216 .168.3.70...
>
> > Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> > was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> > have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> > coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will
> > wake
> > the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.
>
> Well, I always thought my sqealing XT front v-brake was enough to give me
> away instead of a bell.

The voice works OK too. Trouble is the ped usually has an iPod bored
into their head.

[dgk]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:19:05 -0700, idomybestworkonabike@hotmail.com
wrote:

>On Oct 17, 6:01 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®"
><b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:Xns99CC5E8CC07Briemann1850yahoocom@216 .168.3.70...
>>
>> > Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
>> > was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
>> > have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
>> > coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will
>> > wake
>> > the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.
>>
>> Well, I always thought my sqealing XT front v-brake was enough to give me
>> away instead of a bell.
>
>The voice works OK too. Trouble is the ped usually has an iPod bored
>into their head.

That really is a problem. My bell doesn't seem to penetrate at all.
Yelling sort of does the job. I think the old airhorn might be
necessary. I think I'll order one.

[necromancer]

:
> On Oct 17, 6:01 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®"
> <b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:Xns99CC5E8CC07Briemann1850yahoocom@216 .168.3.70...
> >
> > > Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> > > was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> > > have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> > > coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will
> > > wake
> > > the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.
> >
> > Well, I always thought my sqealing XT front v-brake was enough to give me
> > away instead of a bell.
>
> The voice works OK too. Trouble is the ped usually has an iPod bored
> into their head.

For which, only the air horn from an 18-wheeler will penetrate the sonic
fortress around the ped's ears....

--
"Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS," supports letting
drunks drive:

"Yup - another scam by the automakers to increase car
prices and thereby profits for themeselves."

--"Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS," 3/27/07
Ref: http://snipurl.com/1dwi4
Message ID: mKaOh.17057$tD2.15903@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <qv1ch31qgn2cmm4goer24uvcegg6ei10iu@4ax.com>,
dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:19:05 -0700, idomybestworkonabike@hotmail.com
>wrote:
>>
>>The voice works OK too. Trouble is the ped usually has an iPod bored
>>into their head.
>
>That really is a problem. My bell doesn't seem to penetrate at all.
>Yelling sort of does the job. I think the old airhorn might be
>necessary. I think I'll order one.

A length of 2x4 delivered to the back of the head as you pass
them after they ignore your warning should do the job as well.

If there's several of them side-by-side blocking most or all of the ROW, you'll
need a larger 2x4.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

[landotter]

On Oct 17, 10:00 am, Dana Myers <dana.my...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>
> > Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
> > was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
> > have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
> > coming around a sharp curve.
>
> You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
> little bell?


no.

[Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS]

Dana Myers <dana.myers@gmail.com> wrote in
news:dLGdnYlS5ps4vovanZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com:

> Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and
>> realized it was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why
>> most bikers don't have a bell or horn on their bike to use when
>> overtaking a hiker or when coming around a sharp curve.
>
> You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
> little bell?
>
> Dana
>

No - i don't want to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.

[Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein)]

Dana Myers wrote:
>Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
>> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
>> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
>> coming around a sharp curve.
>
>You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
>little bell?

He's referred to as "tinkerbell" at the bath houses for a multitude of
reasons.


--

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's ability to operate a vehicle:
I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a61824?hl=en

[Leo Lichtman]

"Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to hear
some biker telling me to get outta the way.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?

[Leo Lichtman]

Two of us rode up behind an old couple that were walking side-by-side on a
multi-use trail. I guess our bikes were pretty quiet-- they didn't notice
us for several seconds, and we just rolled along behind them. Suddenly, the
woman saw us and they moved aside, while she said, in a German accent: "You
need a kling-aling; a good Churman kling-a-ling."

[Dana Myers]

Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
> Dana Myers <dana.myers@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:dLGdnYlS5ps4vovanZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>> Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>>> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and
>>> realized it was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why
>>> most bikers don't have a bell or horn on their bike to use when
>>> overtaking a hiker or when coming around a sharp curve.
>> You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
>> little bell?
>>
>> Dana
>>
>
> No - i don't want to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.

So you'd prefer a blast of a horn instead? I didn't think
you made sense to begin with, now I *know* you don't.

Dana

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Oct 17, 2:22 pm, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS"
<xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dana Myers <dana.my...@gmail.com> wrote innews:dLGdnYlS5ps4vovanZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.co m:
>
> > Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
> >> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and
> >> realized it was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why
> >> most bikers don't have a bell or horn on their bike to use when
> >> overtaking a hiker or when coming around a sharp curve.
>
> > You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
> > little bell?
>
> > Dana
>
> No - i don't want to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.

I've got a bell on a couple of my bikes. I find "Excuse me" or better
yet, "bicycle" to be FAR more effective.

- Frank Krygowski

[Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein)]

Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>Dana Myers <dana.myers@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:dLGdnYlS5ps4vovanZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>> Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>>> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and
>>> realized it was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why
>>> most bikers don't have a bell or horn on their bike to use when
>>> overtaking a hiker or when coming around a sharp curve.
>>
>> You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
>> little bell?
>>
>> Dana
>>
>
>No - i don't want to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.

Please, don't get out of their way. Preferably if that biker is
driving a Harley.


--

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's ability to operate a vehicle:
I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a61824?hl=en

[Imam Widdershins]

The vile and infidel swine, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS,"
defiled Allah (Praises be unto His Name) in rec.autos.driving with this
blasphemous prose:

> No - i don't want to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.

Have you ever driven a car faster than the posted speed limit. Allah
wants you to address that issue.

Imam Widdershins

[Dana Myers]

Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to hear
> some biker telling me to get outta the way.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?

Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite
"on your left". Odd.

Dana

[Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein)]

Leo Lichtman wrote:
>
>"Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to hear
>some biker telling me to get outta the way.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?

Actually, he finds it beyond his ability to comprehend.


--

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's ability to operate a vehicle:
I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a61824?hl=en

[landotter]

On Oct 17, 2:51 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> Two of us rode up behind an old couple that were walking side-by-side on a
> multi-use trail. I guess our bikes were pretty quiet-- they didn't notice
> us for several seconds, and we just rolled along behind them. Suddenly, the
> woman saw us and they moved aside, while she said, in a German accent: "You
> need a kling-aling; a good Churman kling-a-ling."

Ja! All bikes need a kling-a-ling. At least on bike paths. I have a
bell on my fast bike for this reason. My city bike is bell-less, so if
I use it on the bike/ped path, I resort to "ring ring" or
"brrrrrring!" or even "aaoooogah!" With the last one, people give you
scads of clearance!

[Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein)]

Dana Myers wrote:
>Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>> Dana Myers <dana.myers@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:dLGdnYlS5ps4vovanZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com:
>>
>>> Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
>>>> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and
>>>> realized it was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why
>>>> most bikers don't have a bell or horn on their bike to use when
>>>> overtaking a hiker or when coming around a sharp curve.
>>> You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
>>> little bell?
>>>
>>> Dana
>>>
>>
>> No - i don't want to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.
>
>So you'd prefer a blast of a horn instead? I didn't think
>you made sense to begin with, now I *know* you don't.
>
>Dana

Just wait.


--

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's ability to operate a vehicle:
I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a61824?hl=en

[nmp]

Dana Myers wrote:

> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to
>> hear some biker telling me to get outta the way. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?
>
> Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite "on your left".
> Odd.

Spoken signals, even as polite as that, can be confusing. Just a little
ping from a regular bicycle bell is instantly recognised by many people
around the world as a sign that a cyclist is coming from behind.

[landotter]

On Oct 17, 3:12 pm, Dana Myers <dana.my...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Leo Lichtman wrote:
> > "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to hear
> > some biker telling me to get outta the way.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?
>
> Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite
> "on your left". Odd.

Such hyperbole. The rest of the world uses bike bells because they're
sort of a universal sound. The bike goes ding ding, the car goes beep
beep, the cow goes moo, etc. Can't think of any country where people
use words instead of the proper tool, outside of north America.

[necromancer]

Someone:

> On Oct 17, 2:22 pm, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS"
> <xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Dana Myers <dana.my...@gmail.com> wrote innews:dLGdnYlS5ps4vovanZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.co m:
> >
> > > Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
> > >> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and
> > >> realized it was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why
> > >> most bikers don't have a bell or horn on their bike to use when
> > >> overtaking a hiker or when coming around a sharp curve.
> >
> > > You don't think a verbal greeting is at least as effective as a
> > > little bell?
> >
> > > Dana
> >
> > No - i don't want to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.
>
> I've got a bell on a couple of my bikes. I find "Excuse me" or better
> yet, "bicycle" to be FAR more effective.

IF for some reason I encounter a pedestrian (or even another bicycle)
that I have to pass at close range, I find a simple, "on your left," or,
"on you right," (as appropriate) to be effective. No need for a horn or
bell to startle people (unless, of course, they have the ipod or
bluetooth buried in their ear).

[Dana Myers]

nmp wrote:
> Dana Myers wrote:
>
>> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>>> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to
>>> hear some biker telling me to get outta the way. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?
>> Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite "on your left".
>> Odd.
>
> Spoken signals, even as polite as that, can be confusing. Just a little
> ping from a regular bicycle bell is instantly recognised by many people
> around the world as a sign that a cyclist is coming from behind.

I frankly think a spoken signal, even one in a language not
understood by the listener, is better than a brief ding. The reason
is - it's an audible signal that someone is present, and the length
of the signal is more likely to convey sense of speed and direction.

The listener may not understand the words, but they'll know where
it's coming from and how quickly it's closing.

That is, as long as the listener isn't blasting the tunes...

Dana

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Oct 17, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> Dana Myers wrote:
> > Leo Lichtman wrote:
> >> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to
> >> hear some biker telling me to get outta the way. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?
>
> > Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite "on your left".
> > Odd.
>
> Spoken signals, even as polite as that, can be confusing. Just a little
> ping from a regular bicycle bell is instantly recognised by many people
> around the world as a sign that a cyclist is coming from behind.

Hmm. I don't doubt that the bell is instantly recognized by many
people. Unfortunately, I seem to encounter the many _other_ people
who don't recognize it!

Oh well. I try to stay off most multi-user paths anyway. And when
I'm on one, I eventually get by the walkers one way or another.

- Frank Krygowski

[Zoot Katz]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:01:29 GMT, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale"
<tomcatm@verizon.net> wrote:

>I carry a boat horn. Very, very loud.
>What I like to do is sneak up on the poor victim. Get very close .. then
>let em have it.
>
>Scares the crap out of em.
>
>======================
>"Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2001@yahoo.com> wrote in
>message news:Xns99CC5E8CC07Briemann1850yahoocom@216.168.3. 70...
>> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
>> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
>> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
>> coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will
>> wake
>> the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.
>


I have a bell on all but maybe two of my bikes. It's the law. Besides
being a talisman against a hassle bust they're sometimes fun to ring
just for the joy of it.

I'd be less inclined to have one on a bike used exclusively off-road.
Since many bikes are driven to a trail access point before the rider
mounts it, it doesn't need a bell to be legal.
Were I expecting to encounter bears, skunks or hikers along the
trail, I'd probably have a bell on that bike too.

A squealing front brake works very well around pedestrians as does a
bell. I find verbalised warnings less effective. Pedestrians tend to
move left if you say "on your left". Many of them don't know their
left from their right, nor do they immediately comprehend a warning
spoken in the English language.

Stuck on a bike without a bell, I like saying "Gucci, Gucci, Gucci"
instead of imitating a bell. Another surprisingly audible,
inoffensive neutral universal warning is to hiss with a prolonged S.

For communicating with the stunned caged scum who plague our roads,
I've no qualms about using an air horn when circumstances warrant.

My 120 dB AirZound has stopped a Lexus and a Jeep but I don't feel
it's expressive enough. Like today verbalising, "stay there you
disgusting chunk of monkey snot", had the desired results when some
stunned puke would have deliberately right hooked me at a light had I
been the slightest bit acquiescent or intimidated by his scud.
--
zk

[nmp]

Dana Myers wrote:

> nmp wrote:
>> Dana Myers wrote:
>>
>>> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>>>> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to
>>>> hear some biker telling me to get outta the way. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?
>>> Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite "on your left".
>>> Odd.
>>
>> Spoken signals, even as polite as that, can be confusing. Just a little
>> ping from a regular bicycle bell is instantly recognised by many people
>> around the world as a sign that a cyclist is coming from behind.
>
> I frankly think a spoken signal, even one in a language not understood
> by the listener, is better than a brief ding. The reason is - it's an
> audible signal that someone is present, and the length of the signal is
> more likely to convey sense of speed and direction.
>
> The listener may not understand the words, but they'll know where it's
> coming from and how quickly it's closing.

If I use my bell, with its distinctive sound, I see people moving to the
right of the path for me to pass. If I use my voice, I see them not
reacting at all, because they were engaged in conversation already and
are not paying attention. If they do react, they ask: "Heb je geen
bel?" :)

(transl.: don't you have a bell)

> That is, as long as the listener isn't blasting the tunes...

On the bike paths in The Netherlands it is a different species that you
have to be alert for. They are the retired Gazelle riding crowd, hard of
hearing, slow of wit, always riding two abreast and with an enormous
sense of entitlement.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Oct 17, 8:36 pm, Dana Myers <dana.my...@gmail.com> wrote:
> nmp wrote:
> > Dana Myers wrote:
>
> >> Leo Lichtman wrote:
> >>> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want to
> >>> hear some biker telling me to get outta the way. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>> You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or pushy?
> >> Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite "on your left".
> >> Odd.
>
> > Spoken signals, even as polite as that, can be confusing. Just a little
> > ping from a regular bicycle bell is instantly recognised by many people
> > around the world as a sign that a cyclist is coming from behind.
>
> I frankly think a spoken signal, even one in a language not
> understood by the listener, is better than a brief ding. The reason
> is - it's an audible signal that someone is present, and the length
> of the signal is more likely to convey sense of speed and direction.
>
> The listener may not understand the words, but they'll know where
> it's coming from and how quickly it's closing.
>
> That is, as long as the listener isn't blasting the tunes...
>
> Dana

Where I am when on the rail-trail calling out to walkers 'Passing on
your left!' almost always causes them to move to their left. Go figure
eh?

I tried a bell but the walkers just stand there trying to figure out
where the sound is coming from.

Cheers

[Mike Kruger]

landotter wrote:
> Can't think of any country where people
> use words instead of the proper tool, outside of north America.

Does the United Nations General Assembly count?

[Leo Lichtman]

"Zoot Katz" wroe: (clip) "stay there you disgusting chunk of monkey snot",
had the desired results (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He was probably sitting there trying to figure out what it was you were
shouting.

[Tom Keats]

In article <27adh3575u3j32o4seikqcga8ikbd9oacc@4ax.com>,
Zoot Katz <zootkatz@operamail.com> writes:

> I have a bell on all but maybe two of my bikes. It's the law. Besides
> being a talisman against a hassle bust they're sometimes fun to ring
> just for the joy of it.

I haven't used my bell for a long time. I guess
that's because I haven't cut through Central Park
(in Burnaby, BC) for a long time.

Sometimes while in there, I've had a bit o' fun
just silently pacing along at a safe distance
behind pedestrians, and seeing how long it
takes before they notice I'm there. My clicky
Shimano freewheel always eventually gives my
presence away.

The last few times I used my rubber bulb horn were
to honk thank-yous to drivers who gave me breaks,
and to show my support for striking CUPE workers.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Sherman]

Zoot Katz wrote:
> ...
> A squealing front brake works very well around pedestrians as does a
> bell. I find verbalised warnings less effective. Pedestrians tend to
> move left if you say "on your left". Many of them don't know their
> left from their right, nor do they immediately comprehend a warning
> spoken in the English language....

I find that if one is not expecting to be spoken too, the words are
often as comprehensible an an adult in an animated "Peanuts" cartoon,
especially when that person is moving at some speed.

A bicycle bell is instantaneously recognizable for what it is and what
it implies.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[Tom Sherman]

Matt O'Toole wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 06:34:52 +0000, Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
> wrote:
>
>> Was walking along a trail and heard a bell sound behind me and realized it
>> was a biker and moved over. I've pondered for years why most bikers don't
>> have a bell or horn on their bike to use when overtaking a hiker or when
>> coming around a sharp curve. It doesn't have to be something that will wake
>> the dead; just something loud enough to hear 30 feet away.
>
> I've used one for 15 years. Bells are so much cheerier than, "On your
> left!"

INDEED!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[nmp]

frkrygow wrote:

> On Oct 17, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
>> Dana Myers wrote:
>> > Leo Lichtman wrote:
>> >> "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" wrote: No - i don't want
>> >> to hear some biker telling me to get outta the way.
>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You find, "On your left, please," abrasive or
>> >> pushy?
>>
>> > Apparently, he/she prefers a horn blast to a polite "on your left".
>> > Odd.
>>
>> Spoken signals, even as polite as that, can be confusing. Just a little
>> ping from a regular bicycle bell is instantly recognised by many people
>> around the world as a sign that a cyclist is coming from behind.
>
> Hmm. I don't doubt that the bell is instantly recognized by many
> people. Unfortunately, I seem to encounter the many _other_ people who
> don't recognize it!

Damn, I thought I was the only one who did encounter them from time to
time :)

But in those cases it seems to me you still have other options.

> Oh well. I try to stay off most multi-user paths anyway. And when I'm
> on one, I eventually get by the walkers one way or another.

Of course, you always do, because in that case there is no alternative.

[Matt O'Toole]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:56:16 -0700, frkrygow wrote:

> On Oct 17, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:

>> Spoken signals, even as polite as that, can be confusing. Just a little
>> ping from a regular bicycle bell is instantly recognised by many people
>> around the world as a sign that a cyclist is coming from behind.

> Hmm. I don't doubt that the bell is instantly recognized by many
> people. Unfortunately, I seem to encounter the many _other_ people who
> don't recognize it!

It's probably not as well recognized as it used to be, now that a whole
generation has grown up *not* riding bicycles.

Spoken signals are great, as long as they're polite. Too many riders are
constantly barking orders at pedestrians. It's embarrassing to ride with
these people.

It's sad that so many pedestrians feel the need to scurry out of the way,
completely off the trail, to let cyclists go by. Why is this sad?
Because:

* So many people are unfamiliar enough with bicycles to fear them

* Cyclists have probably exacerbated the problem by riding irresponsibly
around pedestrians -- passing too fast, too close, etc.

Matt O.

[Dana Myers]

nmp wrote:
> Dana Myers wrote:

>> The listener may not understand the words, but they'll know where it's
>> coming from and how quickly it's closing.
>
> If I use my bell, with its distinctive sound, I see people moving to the
> right of the path for me to pass. If I use my voice, I see them not
> reacting at all, because they were engaged in conversation already and
> are not paying attention. If they do react, they ask: "Heb je geen
> bel?" :)
>
> (transl.: don't you have a bell)

Apparently, there's a cultural difference at play here.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, people sharing
multi-use paths here in California are unaccustomed to
hearing bike-bells and seem to typically just seem to be
startled and jump forward when they hear a bell tinkle
(though I do not have a bell, I've seen a few riders
use them with the above results).

Calling out "on your left" seems to be more effective in
politely moving pedestrians to the right without startling
them.

Then there are the families of 8 that wander all over the
path that turn and look at you regardless of whether you
use a bell or speak, and then wander right in front of you
anyway.

Dana

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <47172232$0$245$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
>
>On the bike paths in The Netherlands it is a different species that you
>have to be alert for. They are the retired Gazelle riding crowd, hard of
>hearing, slow of wit, always riding two abreast and with an enormous
>sense of entitlement.

I suppose the broomhandle to the spokes is considered unsporting.



--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

[Bill Sornson]

Dana Myers wrote:

> Calling out "on your left" seems to be more effective in
> politely moving pedestrians to the right without startling
> them.

I find that more than half of them will turn and even move TO THEIR LEFT if
you bark out an order like that. With or without a ding-ding-type bell,
I'll slow down enough to stop if necessary and say something
/conversational/ like, "I'm going to pass on your left side". Almost always
works perfectly.

Bill "a little courtesy goes a long way" S.

[nmp]

Dana Myers wrote:

> nmp wrote:
>> Dana Myers wrote:
>
>>> The listener may not understand the words, but they'll know where it's
>>> coming from and how quickly it's closing.
>>
>> If I use my bell, with its distinctive sound, I see people moving to
>> the right of the path for me to pass. If I use my voice, I see them not
>> reacting at all, because they were engaged in conversation already and
>> are not paying attention. If they do react, they ask: "Heb je geen
>> bel?" :)
>>
>> (transl.: don't you have a bell)
>
> Apparently, there's a cultural difference at play here.

Oh, I'm sure of it ;)

Bicycle bells are mandatory equipment in this country (since 1906), even
before lights were (1926). And you still only need to have lights on your
bike if you are indeed riding in the dark.

> In my (admittedly limited) experience, people sharing multi-use paths
> here in California are unaccustomed to hearing bike-bells

Perhaps it's time to train/condition them... Start using a bell just half
a second before saying, "on your left". Ask other cyclists to do the
same. Start a newspaper campaign :)

Just kidding of course. But your situation does seem a bit, well, "alien"
to me. People who can't recognise a bicycle bell!

> and seem to typically
> just seem to be startled and jump forward when they hear a bell tinkle
> (though I do not have a bell, I've seen a few riders use them with the
> above results).
>
> Calling out "on your left" seems to be more effective in politely moving
> pedestrians to the right without startling them.
>
> Then there are the families of 8 that wander all over the path that turn
> and look at you regardless of whether you use a bell or speak, and then
> wander right in front of you anyway.

Oh, but we have those too. Not too mention the dog owners. Even when they
must keep them on a leash, they use those long retractable type leashes
and let their dogs walk almost freely where it wants to go. Which is of
course always the other side of the path.

[Dana Myers]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Dana Myers wrote:
>
>> Calling out "on your left" seems to be more effective in
>> politely moving pedestrians to the right without startling
>> them.
>
> I find that more than half of them will turn and even move TO THEIR LEFT if
> you bark out an order like that. With or without a ding-ding-type bell,
> I'll slow down enough to stop if necessary and say something
> /conversational/ like, "I'm going to pass on your left side". Almost always
> works perfectly.

So, you're saying things work better when you swing to the left?

[Bill Sornson]

Dana Myers wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Dana Myers wrote:
>>
>>> Calling out "on your left" seems to be more effective in
>>> politely moving pedestrians to the right without startling
>>> them.
>>
>> I find that more than half of them will turn and even move TO THEIR
>> LEFT if you bark out an order like that. With or without a
>> ding-ding-type bell, I'll slow down enough to stop if necessary and
>> say something /conversational/ like, "I'm going to pass on your left
>> side". Almost always works perfectly.
>
> So, you're saying things work better when you swing to the left?

Well, I did say /almost/ always.

[Dana Myers]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Dana Myers wrote:
>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>> Dana Myers wrote:
>>>
>>>> Calling out "on your left" seems to be more effective in
>>>> politely moving pedestrians to the right without startling
>>>> them.
>>> I find that more than half of them will turn and even move TO THEIR
>>> LEFT if you bark out an order like that. With or without a
>>> ding-ding-type bell, I'll slow down enough to stop if necessary and
>>> say something /conversational/ like, "I'm going to pass on your left
>>> side". Almost always works perfectly.
>> So, you're saying things work better when you swing to the left?
>
> Well, I did say /almost/ always.

;-)

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Oct 18, 2:59 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>
>
> It's sad that so many pedestrians feel the need to scurry out of the way,
> completely off the trail, to let cyclists go by. Why is this sad?
> Because:
>
> * So many people are unfamiliar enough with bicycles to fear them
>
> * Cyclists have probably exacerbated the problem by riding irresponsibly
> around pedestrians -- passing too fast, too close, etc.

But the blame is not only cyclists. Pedestrians certainly behave
erratically and thoughtlessly as well.

Not that I want to regiment them excessively. It's just a fact of
life that pedestrians and bicyclists mix rather poorly. It's usually
better for the cyclist to share space with motor vehicles, rather than
peds.

If a "bike path" must be built, I'd prefer to see a "pedestrian path"
adjacent to it. And, of course, separated by at least a six-foot high
chain link fence with razor wire at the top.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:
> ...
> Sometimes while in there, I've had a bit o' fun
> just silently pacing along at a safe distance
> behind pedestrians, and seeing how long it
> takes before they notice I'm there....

I rather pace behind young women on inline skates. Better scenery, and
they move at a pace where one does not have to concentrate on balance.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[nmp]

Tom Sherman wrote:

> Zoot Katz wrote:
>> ...
>> A squealing front brake works very well around pedestrians as does a
>> bell. I find verbalised warnings less effective. Pedestrians tend to
>> move left if you say "on your left". Many of them don't know their left
>> from their right, nor do they immediately comprehend a warning spoken
>> in the English language....
>
> I find that if one is not expecting to be spoken too, the words are
> often as comprehensible an an adult in an animated "Peanuts" cartoon,
> especially when that person is moving at some speed.

That hits the nail on the head, I think.

> A bicycle bell is instantaneously recognizable for what it is and what
> it implies.

I learned from this discussion that this is not always/universally true.

Or perhaps just not in California :P

[Tom Keats]

In article <ff93en$ku1$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>> ...
>> Sometimes while in there, I've had a bit o' fun
>> just silently pacing along at a safe distance
>> behind pedestrians, and seeing how long it
>> takes before they notice I'm there....
>
> I rather pace behind young women on inline skates. Better scenery, and
> they move at a pace where one does not have to concentrate on balance.

The park to which I refer doesn't have paved trails.
Just hardpack. The park serves me and other cyclists
as an interface between Vancouver's bike route system,
and our nextdoorikah's (to wit: Burnaby, BC.) But it
serves the majority of its visitors as what it actually
is: a park, and a very lovely one at that. As a cyclist
just passing through, I must courteously defer to the
/real/ users of that public space. It has signage
indicating its 10 km/h speed limit, and that cyclists
must always observe the ROW of pedestrians. That's
okay with me; sometimes I like to enjoy that park too.
The tree air in there is pretty good to breathe.
Going through there is like a mid-ride Shabbath to
pause and get one's perspective back.

It's not always necessary to pass, or to otherwise
(have to) outdo, people ahead of you.
Sometimes, easy does it.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[nmp]

frkrygow wrote:

> If a "bike path" must be built, I'd prefer to see a "pedestrian path"
> adjacent to it. And, of course, separated by at least a six-foot high
> chain link fence with razor wire at the top.

That will teach them ;)

[Matt O'Toole]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:17:46 -0700, frkrygow wrote:

> On Oct 18, 2:59 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> It's sad that so many pedestrians feel the need to scurry out of the way,
>> completely off the trail, to let cyclists go by. Why is this sad?
>> Because:
>>
>> * So many people are unfamiliar enough with bicycles to fear them
>>
>> * Cyclists have probably exacerbated the problem by riding irresponsibly
>> around pedestrians -- passing too fast, too close, etc.
>
> But the blame is not only cyclists. Pedestrians certainly behave
> erratically and thoughtlessly as well.

I'll put the onus of safety on the one with greater potential to do harm.
We want cars and trucks to respect our right to the road, yet we feel it's
our right to go blasting through a bunch of pedestrians, and that it's
their responsibility to stay out of "our" way?

> Not that I want to regiment them excessively. It's just a fact of life
> that pedestrians and bicyclists mix rather poorly. It's usually better
> for the cyclist to share space with motor vehicles, rather than peds.

All over the world, millions of cyclists and pedestrians mix just fine --
as do millions of bicyclists and motorists.

Matt O.

[Tom Sherman]

frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Oct 18, 2:59 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>
>> It's sad that so many pedestrians feel the need to scurry out of the way,
>> completely off the trail, to let cyclists go by. Why is this sad?
>> Because:
>>
>> * So many people are unfamiliar enough with bicycles to fear them
>>
>> * Cyclists have probably exacerbated the problem by riding irresponsibly
>> around pedestrians -- passing too fast, too close, etc.
>
> But the blame is not only cyclists. Pedestrians certainly behave
> erratically and thoughtlessly as well.
>
> Not that I want to regiment them excessively. It's just a fact of
> life that pedestrians and bicyclists mix rather poorly. It's usually
> better for the cyclist to share space with motor vehicles, rather than
> peds.
>
> If a "bike path" must be built, I'd prefer to see a "pedestrian path"
> adjacent to it. And, of course, separated by at least a six-foot high
> chain link fence with razor wire at the top.

A canopy over the trail at a height of about 4 feet would work wonders
to keep undesirables off.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[Scott in SoCal]

nmp <address@is.invalid> said in rec.autos.driving:

>> In my (admittedly limited) experience, people sharing multi-use paths
>> here in California are unaccustomed to hearing bike-bells
>
>Perhaps it's time to train/condition them... Start using a bell just half
>a second before saying, "on your left". Ask other cyclists to do the
>same. Start a newspaper campaign :)
>
>Just kidding of course. But your situation does seem a bit, well, "alien"
>to me. People who can't recognise a bicycle bell!

I have not heard a bicycle bell since moving to SoCal over a decade
ago. NOBODY here has/uses them.

Still, a voice is superior to a bell or horn, as it is less ambiguous.
You can tell the people exactly what you're doing (e.g. about to pass
them on their left side), whereas a bell can only say "there's a
pedalcyclist around here somewhere."
--
MFFYCam Videos Galore:
http://www.geocities.com/mffycam/
http://slothkills.blip.tv/

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <4718791f$0$242$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
>
>Oh, but we have those too. Not too mention the dog owners. Even when they
>must keep them on a leash, they use those long retractable type leashes
>and let their dogs walk almost freely where it wants to go. Which is of
>course always the other side of the path.

Aim for the owner. They're slower, more predictable, and you won't
feel as bad if you do hit them.

I once came upon some jokers holding a rope across a trail I use for
rollerblading. I don't know what they planned but when I sped up and
aimed directly for the smaller of the two idjits holding the rope,
they moved.

--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

[Scott in SoCal]

nmp <address@is.invalid> said in rec.autos.driving:

>Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>> Zoot Katz wrote:
>>> ...
>>> A squealing front brake works very well around pedestrians as does a
>>> bell. I find verbalised warnings less effective. Pedestrians tend to
>>> move left if you say "on your left". Many of them don't know their left
>>> from their right, nor do they immediately comprehend a warning spoken
>>> in the English language....
>>
>> I find that if one is not expecting to be spoken too, the words are
>> often as comprehensible an an adult in an animated "Peanuts" cartoon,
>> especially when that person is moving at some speed.
>
>That hits the nail on the head, I think.

Even in that case, using your voice degenerates into the same
ambiguous case as the bell; the pedestrian knows there's something
approaching, and will hopefully be more alert.
--
MFFYCam Videos Galore:
http://www.geocities.com/mffycam/
http://slothkills.blip.tv/

[Brent P]

In article <8jchh3l9nit9t5gi41nga2tm0hsnvimchd@4ax.com>, Scott in SoCal wrote:

> Still, a voice is superior to a bell or horn, as it is less ambiguous.
> You can tell the people exactly what you're doing (e.g. about to pass
> them on their left side), whereas a bell can only say "there's a
> pedalcyclist around here somewhere."

After being hassled by a cop because I used my voice to say 'Go Green
light Go' to a slow motorist ahead of me, I purchased an airhorn. Instead
of using my voice, I now use the horn. Not that I like yet another gizmo
attached to my bicycle especially since I have to refill it with air (at
least I found one that I can fill using a bicycle tire pump) but I have
found that horn blasts are more socially acceptable.

First I haven't been hassled by a cop for using it in the same manner I
used my voice, second the hostile reactions of motorists is much reduced.
For some reason they accept the horn, but a voice telling them they are
slow, unobservant, posing a danger to others, etc is not. The horn is a
rather limited dot and dash vocabulary though and creates more
misunderstanding IMO, but less offfense.

[Dana Myers]

Scott in SoCal wrote:
> nmp <address@is.invalid> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>> Zoot Katz wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> A squealing front brake works very well around pedestrians as does a
>>>> bell. I find verbalised warnings less effective. Pedestrians tend to
>>>> move left if you say "on your left". Many of them don't know their left
>>>> from their right, nor do they immediately comprehend a warning spoken
>>>> in the English language....
>>> I find that if one is not expecting to be spoken too, the words are
>>> often as comprehensible an an adult in an animated "Peanuts" cartoon,
>>> especially when that person is moving at some speed.
>> That hits the nail on the head, I think.
>
> Even in that case, using your voice degenerates into the same
> ambiguous case as the bell; the pedestrian knows there's something
> approaching, and will hopefully be more alert.

Precisely my point.

Dana

[Tom Sherman]

Brent P? wrote:
> In article <8jchh3l9nit9t5gi41nga2tm0hsnvimchd@4ax.com>, Scott in SoCal wrote:
>
>> Still, a voice is superior to a bell or horn, as it is less ambiguous.
>> You can tell the people exactly what you're doing (e.g. about to pass
>> them on their left side), whereas a bell can only say "there's a
>> pedalcyclist around here somewhere."
>
> After being hassled by a cop because I used my voice to say 'Go Green
> light Go' to a slow motorist ahead of me, I purchased an airhorn. Instead
> of using my voice, I now use the horn. Not that I like yet another gizmo
> attached to my bicycle especially since I have to refill it with air (at
> least I found one that I can fill using a bicycle tire pump) but I have
> found that horn blasts are more socially acceptable.
>
> First I haven't been hassled by a cop for using it in the same manner I
> used my voice, second the hostile reactions of motorists is much reduced.
> For some reason they accept the horn, but a voice telling them they are
> slow, unobservant, posing a danger to others, etc is not. The horn is a
> rather limited dot and dash vocabulary though and creates more
> misunderstanding IMO, but less offfense.

I find the bicycle bell much LESS ambiguous. The spoken voice requires
more interpretation, and required not only hearing the voice, but also
being able understand the words, which is not a given due to poor
diction, Doppler effect, and/or background noise.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <pan.2007.10.19.20.01.26.563426@letterboxes.org>,
Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:17:46 -0700, frkrygow wrote:
>
>> On Oct 18, 2:59 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> It's sad that so many pedestrians feel the need to scurry out of the way,
>>> completely off the trail, to let cyclists go by. Why is this sad?
>>> Because:
>>>
>>> * So many people are unfamiliar enough with bicycles to fear them
>>>
>>> * Cyclists have probably exacerbated the problem by riding irresponsibly
>>> around pedestrians -- passing too fast, too close, etc.
>>
>> But the blame is not only cyclists. Pedestrians certainly behave
>> erratically and thoughtlessly as well.
>
>I'll put the onus of safety on the one with greater potential to do harm.

That just subordinates your behavior to that of the least potentially harmful
*******. Group of joggers taking up the whole trail? Oh, dear,
mustn't yell at them, mustn't pass them fast and close and make them feel
uncomfortable, I guess I'll just have to stop and walk the bike past them.


>All over the world, millions of cyclists and pedestrians mix just fine --
>as do millions of bicyclists and motorists.

It only works if both sets of road or trail users are trying to make
it work. If one is given a free pass because they're slower or
lighter, they inevitably take advantage and **** it up for everyone.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

[Tom Sherman]

Matt O'Toole wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:17:46 -0700, frkrygow wrote:
>
>> On Oct 18, 2:59 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's sad that so many pedestrians feel the need to scurry out of the way,
>>> completely off the trail, to let cyclists go by. Why is this sad?
>>> Because:
>>>
>>> * So many people are unfamiliar enough with bicycles to fear them
>>>
>>> * Cyclists have probably exacerbated the problem by riding irresponsibly
>>> around pedestrians -- passing too fast, too close, etc.
>> But the blame is not only cyclists. Pedestrians certainly behave
>> erratically and thoughtlessly as well.
>
> I'll put the onus of safety on the one with greater potential to do harm....

The pedestrians are more dangerous to the cyclists than the reverse. The
cyclist usually gets the worst of it in cyclist/pedestrian and
cyclist/dog collisions.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[Scott in SoCal]

Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> said in rec.autos.driving:

>>> * Cyclists have probably exacerbated the problem by riding irresponsibly
>>> around pedestrians -- passing too fast, too close, etc.
>>
>> But the blame is not only cyclists. Pedestrians certainly behave
>> erratically and thoughtlessly as well.
>
>I'll put the onus of safety on the one with greater potential to do harm.

I'll put the onus of safety on the ones who aren't following the rules
of the road (or the trail).

>We want cars and trucks to respect our right to the road, yet we feel it's
>our right to go blasting through a bunch of pedestrians, and that it's
>their responsibility to stay out of "our" way?

I shouldn't have to "go blasting through a bunch of pedestrians" -
those pedestrians should keep to the right and leave room for other
trail users to pass them safely, not spread out and hog the whole
goddamn trail as if they owned it. OTOH, if they're going to be
selfish MFFYs and hog the whole road, then I have very little sympathy
for them if a pedalcyclist "blasts" through the clum and
startles/injures somebody.
--
MFFYCam Videos Galore:
http://www.geocities.com/mffycam/
http://slothkills.blip.tv/

[Tom Keats]

In article <KrydnQZSkpOcioTanZ2dnUVZ_rOqnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
> In article <qv1ch31qgn2cmm4goer24uvcegg6ei10iu@4ax.com>,
> dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:19:05 -0700, idomybestworkonabike@hotmail.com
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>The voice works OK too. Trouble is the ped usually has an iPod bored
>>>into their head.
>>
>>That really is a problem. My bell doesn't seem to penetrate at all.
>>Yelling sort of does the job. I think the old airhorn might be
>>necessary. I think I'll order one.
>
> A length of 2x4 delivered to the back of the head as you pass
> them after they ignore your warning should do the job as well.
>
> If there's several of them side-by-side blocking most or all of the ROW, you'll
> need a larger 2x4.

It takes a car driver to talk about deliberately
clobbering pedestrians.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Scott in SoCal]

Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>I find the bicycle bell much LESS ambiguous.

Really? So when you hear the bell, do you move to your right or to
your left?

>The spoken voice requires more interpretation

Trivial unless you don't understand English.

>and required not only hearing the voice, but also
>being able understand the words, which is not a given due to poor
>diction, Doppler effect, and/or background noise.

If you hear the voice but can't understand the words, then that's
precisely the same scenario as the bell: you know someone is
approaching, but you don't know on which side. So the voice provides
at least as much information as the bell, and in most cases much more.
--
MFFYCam Videos Galore:
http://www.geocities.com/mffycam/
http://slothkills.blip.tv/

[r15757@aol.com]

On Oct 19, 6:11 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> A canopy over the trail at a height of about 4 feet would work wonders
> to keep undesirables off.

I doubt your recumbent would handle very well weaving around toddlers
and midgets.

[Tom Sherman]

r15757@aol.com wrote:
> On Oct 19, 6:11 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> A canopy over the trail at a height of about 4 feet would work wonders
>> to keep undesirables off.
>
> I doubt your recumbent would handle very well weaving around toddlers
> and midgets.

Toddlers and midgets have low mass - I just need a bike like Joe's:
<http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/outtaMyWay_1.mpg> and
<http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/outtaMyWay_2.mpg>. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[Brent P]

In article <ghtih35p2lq32vq17qnj094h5e5ulpojgh@4ax.com>, Scott in SoCal wrote:
> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> said in rec.autos.driving:
>
>>I find the bicycle bell much LESS ambiguous.
>
> Really? So when you hear the bell, do you move to your right or to
> your left?

People should know to keep right, but they do that on bike trails worse
than they drive.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Oct 19, 11:36 pm, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I shouldn't have to "go blasting through a bunch of pedestrians" -
> those pedestrians should keep to the right and leave room for other
> trail users to pass them safely, not spread out and hog the whole
> goddamn trail as if they owned it.

I agree. It's rude for five housewives to walk shoulder to shoulder
down a Multi-User Path. I'm sure if those same housewives
encountered five teenagers walking shoulder to shoulder through their
favorite shopping mall, they'd cluck like angry hens.

But another point: Why is it that peds are expected to keep to the
_right_ on a MUP? If they followed the rules for _roads_ and kept to
their left, facing the traffic on wheels, we could skip this whole
discussion of bells.

It's just evidence that MUPs are thought of as sidewalks, not
streets. The people riding bikes on them are willfully choosing a
sidewalk environment. And on MUPs, as on sidewalks, bicycles and
pedestrians mix poorly.

- Frank Krygowski

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Oct 22, 11:30 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 19, 11:36 pm, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I shouldn't have to "go blasting through a bunch of pedestrians" -
> > those pedestrians should keep to the right and leave room for other
> > trail users to pass them safely, not spread out and hog the whole
> > goddamn trail as if they owned it.
>
> I agree. It's rude for five housewives to walk shoulder to shoulder
> down a Multi-User Path. I'm sure if those same housewives
> encountered five teenagers walking shoulder to shoulder through their
> favorite shopping mall, they'd cluck like angry hens.
>
> But another point: Why is it that peds are expected to keep to the
> _right_ on a MUP? If they followed the rules for _roads_ and kept to
> their left, facing the traffic on wheels, we could skip this whole
> discussion of bells.
>
> It's just evidence that MUPs are thought of as sidewalks, not
> streets. The people riding bikes on them are willfully choosing a
> sidewalk environment. And on MUPs, as on sidewalks, bicycles and
> pedestrians mix poorly.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

There is a bike path in Salem MA that is treated like a MUP, even
though it's a city designated bike path. I've been yelled at to slow
down on that path by said group while they were walking 5 or 6 wide,
blocking the entirety of the path in BOTH directions, coming at me
head to head. This is on my mountain bike, on the way to or from the
trails, on my middle ring. I don't keep a computer on the mtb, but I
couldn't have been going much faster than 15mph, and estimate it was
closer to 12. I had to ride off the trail to get around them. None
of this was uncommon on that path, and I only used it to get me to a
certain trail or on foul weather days when it was actually suitable
for the road bike (read: empty).

[Dana Myers]

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 19, 11:36 pm, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I shouldn't have to "go blasting through a bunch of pedestrians" -
>> those pedestrians should keep to the right and leave room for other
>> trail users to pass them safely, not spread out and hog the whole
>> goddamn trail as if they owned it.
>
> I agree. It's rude for five housewives to walk shoulder to shoulder
> down a Multi-User Path. I'm sure if those same housewives
> encountered five teenagers walking shoulder to shoulder through their
> favorite shopping mall, they'd cluck like angry hens.
>
> But another point: Why is it that peds are expected to keep to the
> _right_ on a MUP? If they followed the rules for _roads_ and kept to
> their left, facing the traffic on wheels, we could skip this whole
> discussion of bells.

Ahhh... the Jedediah Smith Memorial Trail in the American River Parkway
from Sacramento to Folsom has signs explicitly directing pedestrians to
walk on the gravel shoulder on the left, and many do. It's wonderful,
and no bell is required.

However, some pedestrians will simply wander around the trail without
paying attention to the signs, or the frequent oncoming bicyclists. It
is almost as if they *want* to be hit. I don't think a bell would help
these folks, either.

Dana

[Tom Sherman]

DanKMTB@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
> There is a bike path in Salem MA that is treated like a MUP, even
> though it's a city designated bike path. I've been yelled at to slow
> down on that path by said group while they were walking 5 or 6 wide,
> blocking the entirety of the path in BOTH directions, coming at me
> head to head....

See <http://sheldonbrown.com/lirpa.html#bayonetz>. As usual, Sheldon has
the answer. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[Leo Lichtman]

The idea of locking a brake to keep the bike from rolling and tipping is
good for another reason. If you can lock a brake, this is a deterrent to
casual theft. The person decides to walk away or ride away on your bike,
but something is wrong--it just won't go. The important thing here is that
the brake should be jammed in a non-obvious way, such as inserting a wedge
or shim at a caliper, or at the noodle.