Why are the neighborhood bike shops fading away? [Archive]

wrench4life

12-31-1969, 08:00 PM

Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?

They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
neighborhood bike shop.

Like myself, I'm sure their are many of you that stay true to your
local shop. So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
are the big guys killing the local shop?

I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
aproachable, more casual, and way more informative. I have also found
some *****in' old school memorabillia (like my 1951 5spd topetube
stick shift Peugeot) from my lnbs. Not to mention the shop dog's. I
love those dog's almost as much as my own k-9's. Seriously people, how
can you not like a shop dog. You know what I mean.? Anyway.
The turn around time for a service is eaqual to if not sooner than the
big guy's. The accessory prices are usually the same or lower than the
big guy's, and the quality of the bike's are way better. (I'm sorry
but the Schwinn at walmat or target is not the same Schwinn you will
get from your lnbs).

So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
doing so well and the local guys struggling?

Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?

Just A User

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

wrench4life wrote:
> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>
> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> neighborhood bike shop.
>
> Like myself, I'm sure their are many of you that stay true to your
> local shop. So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
> are the big guys killing the local shop?
>
> I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
> aproachable, more casual, and way more informative. I have also found
> some *****in' old school memorabillia (like my 1951 5spd topetube
> stick shift Peugeot) from my lnbs. Not to mention the shop dog's. I
> love those dog's almost as much as my own k-9's. Seriously people, how
> can you not like a shop dog. You know what I mean.? Anyway.
> The turn around time for a service is eaqual to if not sooner than the
> big guy's. The accessory prices are usually the same or lower than the
> big guy's, and the quality of the bike's are way better. (I'm sorry
> but the Schwinn at walmat or target is not the same Schwinn you will
> get from your lnbs).
>
> So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
> doing so well and the local guys struggling?
>
> Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?
>

I think it's pretty simple. Most people think of bikes as toys for
children. And those same people figure why spend a lot of money on a
bike for a child when they will outgrow it in just a couple of years.

Hank Wirtz

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

Art Harris

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

wrench4life wrote:
> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>

I don't know that they're fading away, but it amazes me that they can
stay in business.

On the one hand, casual buyers or parents buying for kids will go to
the department stores for to save money. And "serious" cyclists will
go to the large "pro" shops that carry mid to high-end bikes.

Guys like me, just keep riding their old bikes, maintaining them at
home, and buying parts through mail order or ebay.

> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> neighborhood bike shop.
>

The small shop has to offer service that the depatment stores can't if
they want to survive. I know of a few small shops that have a good
following among recreational cyclists and even racers, as well as
selling childrens bikes. It's a delicate balancing act, and I don't
think they're getting rich.

Art Harris

Ben Pfaff

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

wrench4life <wrench4life@gmail.com> writes:

> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?

Not around here. There are probably half a dozen independent
bike shops along or near my 6 mile daily commute route.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org

vey

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

wrench4life wrote:

>
> So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
> doing so well and the local guys struggling?
>
> Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?
>

I'm not so sure that things are the way they seem. I rarely see a bike
leaving my local Target store. My LBS opened a second store a couple of
years ago and it was slow there for a while, but now I won't go near the
place to buy parts on the weekends since most of the parts I want are
special order. They are just too busy selling bikes or people are
picking them up. If I go during standard working hours, M-F, I will get
much better service.

jbollyn@gmail.com

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

On Oct 24, 9:52 am, wrench4life <wrench4l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>
> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> neighborhood bike shop.
>
> Like myself, I'm sure their are many of you that stay true to your
> local shop. So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
> are the big guys killing the local shop?
>
> I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
> aproachable, more casual, and way more informative. I have also found
> some *****in' old school memorabillia (like my 1951 5spd topetube
> stick shift Peugeot) from my lnbs. Not to mention the shop dog's. I
> love those dog's almost as much as my own k-9's. Seriously people, how
> can you not like a shop dog. You know what I mean.? Anyway.
> The turn around time for a service is eaqual to if not sooner than the
> big guy's. The accessory prices are usually the same or lower than the
> big guy's, and the quality of the bike's are way better. (I'm sorry
> but the Schwinn at walmat or target is not the same Schwinn you will
> get from your lnbs).
>
> So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
> doing so well and the local guys struggling?
>
> Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?

I don't stay true to *any* particular business. A business needs to
earn my patronage with each and every sale. I recently fired one of my
LBS because they were helpful and timely only in the off season. In
the summer, they wanted me to wait too long for even simple repairs.
And with a bad attitude to boot.

It is not just bikes. Any small business who is competing with the big
box stores cannot try to compete simply on a price basis, because the
small guy will certainly lose. The small business needs to find a
niche, and focus on that target customer. And repeat customers are the
key, because a business will not grow without them.

Running a small business has never been an easy way to earn a living.
Now with the big box stores and the Internet as competitors, it is
even more difficult to turn a profit.

Jay

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

wrench4life wrote:
> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>
> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> neighborhood bike shop.
>
> Like myself, I'm sure their are many of you that stay true to your
> local shop. So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
> are the big guys killing the local shop?
>
> I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
> aproachable, more casual, and way more informative. I have also found
> some *****in' old school memorabillia (like my 1951 5spd topetube
> stick shift Peugeot) from my lnbs. Not to mention the shop dog's. I
> love those dog's almost as much as my own k-9's. Seriously people, how
> can you not like a shop dog. You know what I mean.? Anyway.
> The turn around time for a service is eaqual to if not sooner than the
> big guy's. The accessory prices are usually the same or lower than the
> big guy's, and the quality of the bike's are way better. (I'm sorry
> but the Schwinn at walmat or target is not the same Schwinn you will
> get from your lnbs).
>
> So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
> doing so well and the local guys struggling?
>
> Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?

Schumpeter covered this very well, starting about a hundred years ago.

If there's no risk of failure, then achievement, innovation and
development suffers. Imagine if no business ever failed. Your downtown
would be filled with vendors of buggy whips and lamp oil, perhaps a
farrier or two. No room for wireless services!
Businesses which change to meet their customers' demands/ tastes/
frivolities survive. Others don't. Where we fail to serve our customers,
XMart sees opportunity. Thus was it ever.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

* * Chas

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

"wrench4life" <wrench4life@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193197252.679084.291350@v29g2000prd.googlegr oups.com...
> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>
> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> neighborhood bike shop.
>
> Like myself, I'm sure their are many of you that stay true to your
> local shop. So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
> are the big guys killing the local shop?
>
> I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
> aproachable, more casual, and way more informative. I have also found
> some *****in' old school memorabillia (like my 1951 5spd topetube
> stick shift Peugeot) from my lnbs. Not to mention the shop dog's. I
> love those dog's almost as much as my own k-9's. Seriously people, how
> can you not like a shop dog. You know what I mean.? Anyway.
> The turn around time for a service is eaqual to if not sooner than the
> big guy's. The accessory prices are usually the same or lower than the
> big guy's, and the quality of the bike's are way better. (I'm sorry
> but the Schwinn at walmat or target is not the same Schwinn you will
> get from your lnbs).
>
> So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
> doing so well and the local guys struggling?
>
> Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?
>

I recently visited Pittsburgh, PA where I grew up. There used to be at
least one LBS in every neighborhood. When I looked in the yellow pages
phone book there were only about a dozen shops listed in the whole
metropolitan area.

In the SF Bay Area where I live now there are LBS in just about every
community.

The small neighborhood mom & pops LBS will probably fade away in favor of
more specialized shops.

Another thing, how many soccer mom's are involved in cycling? Point being,
there are a lot of other activities that can compete with bicycles for
kids leisure time.

Today a lot of LBS are in close proximity to college campuses. Weather can
also contribute to the amount of cycling interest in a community. In much
of the US cycling is a 6 month a year activity for most casual riders.

Add to the above issues, mail order and internet businesses take away a
good portion of the profitable component and accessory business.

The advantage that LBS offer is that you can have it now rather than
waiting for 2-10+ days to receive the parts that you want.

Chas.

Scott Gordo

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

On Oct 24, 10:52 am, wrench4life <wrench4l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>
> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> neighborhood bike shop.
>
> Like myself, I'm sure their are many of you that stay true to your
> local shop. So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
> are the big guys killing the local shop?
>
> I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
> aproachable, more casual, and way more informative. I have also found
> some *****in' old school memorabillia (like my 1951 5spd topetube
> stick shift Peugeot) from my lnbs. Not to mention the shop dog's. I
> love those dog's almost as much as my own k-9's. Seriously people, how
> can you not like a shop dog. You know what I mean.? Anyway.
> The turn around time for a service is eaqual to if not sooner than the
> big guy's. The accessory prices are usually the same or lower than the
> big guy's, and the quality of the bike's are way better. (I'm sorry
> but the Schwinn at walmat or target is not the same Schwinn you will
> get from your lnbs).
>
> So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
> doing so well and the local guys struggling?
>
> Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?

Yep, big boxes and the interweb certainly played their parts.

I'm sure that Walmart's bulk ordering power gives them a nifty price
break that the M&Ps would not enjoy. Even if a small shop was to
compete with big box prices, nobody brings their bike back to Walmart
expecting to have it repaired by the "Sports Section" bozo they bought
it from. Different story for M&P's, who are expected to cater to the
purchaser's every whim. That means paid man hours spent on frustrating
adjustments of disposeable parts (or costly replacements) rather than
selling bikes (or hula hoops, or nerf footballs, or....)

As for the web, I'm certainly guilty there. But my local shop just
isn't going to stock every single part I'm looking for, especially at
the price I'm able to find it at. (In ways, however, the net has
helped shops when people order, say, a bottom bracket, but don't know
how to install it or don't have the tools.)

One other factor is the brands themselves. A lot of old mom and pop
stores were Schwinn dealers. Ever since Pacific bought them out and
introduced them to the big box stores, Schwinn lost nearly all of
their credibility, the perception being, "Why pay extra at a bike
shop for the same brand?" That's why you won't find them in many M&Ps,
nor the M&Ps themselves. I, for one, haven't seen a new Schwinn in a
bike shop since... 1999? They must be out there, because I see the
advertised in the mags, but I don't see them on the road. Anyway, back
to the point, as in most other consumables, people buy based on:
1. the color
2. the familiarity of the name on the sticker affixed to the object
Show most of these people a classic Paramount next to a Walmart $199
dual suspension chrome Schwinn, and they'll take the latter.

/s

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

(PeteCresswell)

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

Per wrench4life:
>So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
>are the big guys killing the local shop?
>
>I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
>aproachable

One factor could be liquidity. I've found some small shops
extremely difficult to deal with on returns/warranty issues.

My guess is that money is tight with them and they just can't
afford to be too accommodating. Bigger shops... more money...

OTOH there's also a lot riding on the manager/owner.

I find one LBS's owner tb extremely hard-nosed. I guess he's
gotta be to survive, but I gravitated to the local Performance
shop after dealing with him a couple of times.

But manager of the local Performance shop quit some months ago
and, as far as I can see, the soul has gone out of the place.

That guy would do anything for a customer.

Now it's just a bunch of people punching the clock. Went in
there a few weeks ago to order a Gravity Dropper seatpost. Found
it in the catalog, asked the guy "How much?". Guy said "Dunno".
I said "How about finding out?" Guy said "We only call orders in
on Mondays. We'll find out then."

So I went home and bought it online from PricePoint... probably
significantly cheaper.... and haven't looked back.

If I need something locally, there's a good chance I'll start
going back to the LBS - hard-nosed or not.
--
PeteCresswell

Michael Baldwin

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

Back in late August I tried to buy a set of CX tires locally (within 20
miles). I called 3 LBS's...LBS#1- Sorry, no CX tires in stock, they're
"not in season" yet. Thank You, "click" LBS#2- I don't think we
sell "that" brand. Thank You, "click" LBS#3 - Yep. I have one 29'er
in stock, a Panaracer,,, I think. Thank You, "click"

I then called a shop 90 miles away. They stocked several brands with a
fine selection in treads and widths. I called to more shops in the
general region and they too had similar selections to offer.

To quote Tip O'Neil, "all politics are local", I'm learning that these
days, regardless the endeavor, customer service is as well. While I
live within 20 miles of city with a population of over 150,000, I
routinely need to shop in other, often smaller and more distant
communities with businesses that meet my expectations.

Having formally been in the retail/service sector, I'm very aware of
the daily challenges that a small entrepreneur faces. I must admit
however, I'm growing increasingly weary of trying to support local
"mom & pop" operations that can't even compete amongst themselves.

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

Donald Gillies

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

wrench4life <wrench4life@gmail.com> writes:

>Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
>away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?

walmart, target, and performance cut out the middle-man overhead. In
many cases performance can sell some products more cheaply than your
LBS can order them at wholesale price (quote from LBS owner.)

Since the purchase of bike nashbar and supergo, performance now has
operations in most states and must collect sales taxes. postage costs
have gone up.

High-cost distributors are strangling the LBS business model.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

The chance that I find a "bobish" item (practical, affordable,
durable, time-tested) at my local LBS is about 0.001%. The last thing
I found was Avenir/Minoura/Raleigh stainless bottle cages - a $4.50
item selling at the horrific price of $12.99 each.

These places are too busy showing off their latest XTR grouppos where
everything looks like an "X", and all the $120 carbon seatposts,
whereas I find the $12 aluminum seatposts hold the saddle just as well...

Anything useful i must mail-order it through the LBS. If they force
me to mail order it through them, why not cut out the middle-man
(which is them) and mail-order it directly, where I can browse the
catalogue at home, rather than going through their QBP phonebook which
is mostly junk ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Dave

01-03-1970, 05:50 PM

On Oct 24, 7:52 am, wrench4life <wrench4l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>
> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> neighborhood bike shop.
>
> Like myself, I'm sure their are many of you that stay true to your
> local shop. So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
> are the big guys killing the local shop?
>
> I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
> aproachable, more casual, and way more informative. I have also found
> some *****in' old school memorabillia (like my 1951 5spd topetube
> stick shift Peugeot) from my lnbs. Not to mention the shop dog's. I
> love those dog's almost as much as my own k-9's. Seriously people, how
> can you not like a shop dog. You know what I mean.? Anyway.
> The turn around time for a service is eaqual to if not sooner than the
> big guy's. The accessory prices are usually the same or lower than the
> big guy's, and the quality of the bike's are way better. (I'm sorry
> but the Schwinn at walmat or target is not the same Schwinn you will
> get from your lnbs).
>
> So again I ponder this sleepless question, why are the big guy's
> doing so well and the local guys struggling?
>
> Can someone please show me what I'm missing here?

Fascinating discussion here...

I think a lot of neighborhood bike shops frankly deserve to die. The
typical IBD has a few undistinguished asian-made bike lines, weak
service offerings, ill-paid incompetent mechanics, and uninteresting
apparel and accessory choices for which they must charge full list to
survive. They do nothing to promote the sport or facilitate bike
culture, and they'll happily sell someone an ill-fitting or
inappropriate product in order to make a sale. The bread and butter
product for these shops here in Los Angeles is $100-$150 chinese beach
cruisers, which the big boxes sell for less. In the age of the
internet and complete bikes by mail, why should these places survive?
The world owes nobody a living.

Why are IBDs so darn resistant to experimenting with alternative
formats and niche markets? This is true even in Los Angeles, an
absolutely huge cycling market with plenty of room for
differentiation. High end service a la vecchio's, custom bike builds,
quality suspension work for increasingly complex mountain bikes (VERY
hard to find), coffee bars, fixed gear specific, beach cruiser or
chopper specific, commuter specific, coffee bars, interesting and
stylish apparel...there's so much. We are beginning to see niche
local shops like this in LA but there's plenty of opportunity out
there.

vey

01-03-1970, 05:51 PM

A Muzi wrote:
Your downtown
> would be filled with vendors of buggy whips and lamp oil, perhaps a
> farrier or two.

At least it would be filled with something. These days, most downtowns
are either dying or dead. Customers drive to the Big Box stores now.

vey

01-03-1970, 05:51 PM

* * Chas wrote:

>
> I recently visited Pittsburgh, PA where I grew up. There used to be at
> least one LBS in every neighborhood. When I looked in the yellow pages
> phone book there were only about a dozen shops listed in the whole
> metropolitan area.

You don't think that economics of the city has something to do with that?

>
> In the SF Bay Area where I live now there are LBS in just about every
> community.

Like I said.

>
> The small neighborhood mom & pops LBS will probably fade away in favor of
> more specialized shops.

What do you mean by that? I recently went into a LBS and all that was in
there was racing equipment. Is that what you mean?

>
> Another thing, how many soccer mom's are involved in cycling? Point being,
> there are a lot of other activities that can compete with bicycles for
> kids leisure time.

Bike=toy.
>

> Add to the above issues, mail order and internet businesses take away a
> good portion of the profitable component and accessory business.
>
> The advantage that LBS offer is that you can have it now rather than
> waiting for 2-10+ days to receive the parts that you want.

I often special order through my LBS. I figure out what I want from the
internet, then ask my LBS to order it for me. Usually, the price is a
wash, so why not let the LBS get the sale? I can usually figure out what
is best for me than the pimply faced kid can, so I would never know what
was out there without the 'net.

Matt O'Toole

01-03-1970, 05:51 PM

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:54:04 -0700, * * Chas wrote:

> The advantage that LBS offer is that you can have it now rather than
> waiting for 2-10+ days to receive the parts that you want.

Unfortunately this isn't the case more often than not. It seems most
shops these days hardly stock anything, and have to order it.

I can usually order it myself from Performance/Nashbar/whomever and get it
sooner, for a lot less money, even with shipping figured in.

Matt O.

Donga

01-03-1970, 05:51 PM

On Oct 25, 4:59 am, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>
> Your downtown
>
> > would be filled with vendors of buggy whips and lamp oil, perhaps a
> > farrier or two.
>
> At least it would be filled with something. These days, most downtowns
> are either dying or dead. Customers drive to the Big Box stores now.

One day they will cycle there.

peter

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

On Oct 24, 1:00 pm, Donga <idomybestworkonab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 25, 4:59 am, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:

> > At least it would be filled with something. These days, most downtowns
> > are either dying or dead. Customers drive to the Big Box stores now.
>
> One day they will cycle there.

At least the Walmart and Target near me have conveniently located bike
racks. That's more than I can say for many of the LBSs.

* * Chas

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

"vey" <junker@ericvey.com> wrote in message
news:ffobbq$v8g$1@news.datemas.de...
> * * Chas wrote:
>
> >
> > I recently visited Pittsburgh, PA where I grew up. There used to be at
> > least one LBS in every neighborhood. When I looked in the yellow pages
> > phone book there were only about a dozen shops listed in the whole
> > metropolitan area.
>
> You don't think that economics of the city has something to do with
that?
>
> >
> > In the SF Bay Area where I live now there are LBS in just about every
> > community.
>
> Like I said.
>
> >
> > The small neighborhood mom & pops LBS will probably fade away in favor
of
> > more specialized shops.
>
> What do you mean by that? I recently went into a LBS and all that was in
> there was racing equipment. Is that what you mean?
>
> >
> > Another thing, how many soccer mom's are involved in cycling? Point
being,
> > there are a lot of other activities that can compete with bicycles for
> > kids leisure time.
>
> Bike=toy.
> >
>
> > Add to the above issues, mail order and internet businesses take away
a
> > good portion of the profitable component and accessory business.
> >
> > The advantage that LBS offer is that you can have it now rather than
> > waiting for 2-10+ days to receive the parts that you want.
>
> I often special order through my LBS. I figure out what I want from the
> internet, then ask my LBS to order it for me. Usually, the price is a
> wash, so why not let the LBS get the sale? I can usually figure out what
> is best for me than the pimply faced kid can, so I would never know what
> was out there without the 'net.
>

The population of Pittsburgh, PA was ~619,000 in 1970. Today it's 339,000.

Three or four generations have moved away from rust belt towns like
Pittsburgh.

The successful bike shops seem to be the ones that specialize in upscale
bikes. They generally don't have to compete with big box business with
these kinds of bikes.

I like to support my LBSs. I check with them first and unless something is
priced way out of line I will pay 5% to 20% more just for the convenience
of having a LBS.

Chas.

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

> wrench4life wrote:
>> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
>> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
>> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
>> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
>> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
>> neighborhood bike shop.

SMS wrote:
> Well we still have plenty of neighborhood bike shops where I am, both
> friendly and unfriendly, though tending toward the latter unfortunately.
> The selection at these shops has been getting worse and worse as they
> drop product lines. Two shops in my area recently changed owners, and
> the decrease in product selection was very noticeable.
> One of the biggest issues with the smaller shops is their opening hours.
> When people got out of work at 5:00, 10-6 may have worked fine. These
> days it doesn't. Performance and REI are open until 9:00 p.m, on
> weeknights, and are open Sunday, while a lot of small shops close at
> 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. and close completely on Sunday. Just for myself, twice
> I've helped relatives shop for bikes, and the reason they went to
> Performance is because they were open. The buyers' weren't picky, they
> needed a certain style of bike, and they wanted to get it right away.

I could never understand why a guy who pays rent every day would blow a
goodbye kiss to 15% of his revenue buy actually closing a whole day out
of every seven.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

vey

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

* * Chas wrote:

>
> The population of Pittsburgh, PA was ~619,000 in 1970. Today it's 339,000.

Like I said. Economics of the town.
>
> Three or four generations have moved away from rust belt towns like
> Pittsburgh.

Which means fewer LBS's.
>
> The successful bike shops seem to be the ones that specialize in upscale
> bikes. They generally don't have to compete with big box business with
> these kinds of bikes.

I think that is the same pretty much everywhere. Here, those upscale
bikes are selling pretty well. In a town with poor economics, no.

>
> I like to support my LBSs. I check with them first and unless something is
> priced way out of line I will pay 5% to 20% more just for the convenience
> of having a LBS.
>
> Chas.
>
>

Steve Gravrock

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

On 2007-10-24, * * Chas <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:

> I like to support my LBSs. I check with them first and unless something is
> priced way out of line I will pay 5% to 20% more just for the convenience
> of having a LBS.

That's pretty much the way I approach it. For me, mail order is
inconvenient. I'm not home during delivery hours so I invariably have to
pick the package up at the shipping company's depot. That's two miles
away for UPS, 40 miles away for FedEx, and 75 miles away for DHL.
Unfortunately most mail order outfits either ship FedEx or don't tell
you what carrier they're going to use until the order ships. Pretty much
all of my mail order purchases are from smaller shops that either ship
UPS as a rule or give me a choice (Harris, Peter White) and those don't
offer a price advantage over the LBS.

Jay Beattie

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

On Oct 24, 3:25 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > wrench4life wrote:
> >> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
> >> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
> >> They (the above mentioned) started out small and like any hungry group
> >> of biz-ness folk ,they grew their business & good for them. But
> >> durring their quest for retail domination, they are intentionally or
> >> otherwise erasing a part of American tradition-The friendly
> >> neighborhood bike shop.
> SMS wrote:
> > Well we still have plenty of neighborhood bike shops where I am, both
> > friendly and unfriendly, though tending toward the latter unfortunately.
> > The selection at these shops has been getting worse and worse as they
> > drop product lines. Two shops in my area recently changed owners, and
> > the decrease in product selection was very noticeable.
> > One of the biggest issues with the smaller shops is their opening hours.
> > When people got out of work at 5:00, 10-6 may have worked fine. These
> > days it doesn't. Performance and REI are open until 9:00 p.m, on
> > weeknights, and are open Sunday, while a lot of small shops close at
> > 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. and close completely on Sunday. Just for myself, twice
> > I've helped relatives shop for bikes, and the reason they went to
> > Performance is because they were open. The buyers' weren't picky, they
> > needed a certain style of bike, and they wanted to get it right away.
>
> I could never understand why a guy who pays rent every day would blow a
> goodbye kiss to 15% of his revenue buy actually closing a whole day out
> of every seven.

Totally off topic, but I was riding up the coast of California many
years ago and was approaching Fort Bragg -- which had a funky little
shop in a quonset hut with very irregular hours (closed on Sunday and
Monday, IIRC). It was Saturday. I ran in to a couple of guys whose
tires were being held together with duct tape (no kidding) who had to
get to the shop and buy tires so they could continue on their tour.
They got there just after it closed. I think they had to hang around
for two days. I had a problem like that later in Astoria, Oregon, but
I woke up the owner (who lived over the store) and made him sell me a
set of pedals so I could get on my way (stupid me, I had some ER Ti
pedals on a touring bike and broke a spindle). I guess the moral of
the story is that if you really want time off, don't live over your
store. -- Jay Beattie.

Matt O'Toole

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:25:31 -0500, A Muzi wrote:

> SMS wrote:

>> One of the biggest issues with the smaller shops is their opening hours.
>> When people got out of work at 5:00, 10-6 may have worked fine. These
>> days it doesn't. Performance and REI are open until 9:00 p.m, on
>> weeknights, and are open Sunday, while a lot of small shops close at
>> 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. and close completely on Sunday. Just for myself, twice
>> I've helped relatives shop for bikes, and the reason they went to
>> Performance is because they were open. The buyers' weren't picky, they
>> needed a certain style of bike, and they wanted to get it right away.

> I could never understand why a guy who pays rent every day would blow a
> goodbye kiss to 15% of his revenue buy actually closing a whole day out
> of every seven.

Especially a weekend day for a bike shop! (Sorry Chris.)

Matt O.

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:52 PM

A Muzi wrote:

> I could never understand why a guy who pays rent every day would blow a
> goodbye kiss to 15% of his revenue buy actually closing a whole day out
> of every seven.

I was just thinking the same thing. Look at the Chinese-owned stores and
they stay open as long hours as possible, often to the limit of what the
city where they are located allows. Then again, these are usually
family-owned stores, where the non-core hour staff consists of unpaid
family members.

The bike shop doesn't need to be fully staffed at night and on weekends,
just enough of a staff to sell merchandise.

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-03-1970, 05:53 PM

> I find one LBS's owner tb extremely hard-nosed. I guess he's
> gotta be to survive, but I gravitated to the local Performance
> shop after dealing with him a couple of times.

Well, I've got a Jackie Cresswell that shows up in our computer (last
purchase in 1999) but no Pete....

Maybe I deleted you from the computer during one of my hard-nosed momnets?
:>)

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:i9kvh3p3jt2nol2205dsopfhrdle4oqg7v@4ax.com...
> Per wrench4life:
>>So my question is this...What makes you stay loyal and why
>>are the big guys killing the local shop?
>>
>>I personally have found the service from the lnbs to be more
>>aproachable
>
> One factor could be liquidity. I've found some small shops
> extremely difficult to deal with on returns/warranty issues.
>
> My guess is that money is tight with them and they just can't
> afford to be too accommodating. Bigger shops... more money...
>
> OTOH there's also a lot riding on the manager/owner.
>
> I find one LBS's owner tb extremely hard-nosed. I guess he's
> gotta be to survive, but I gravitated to the local Performance
> shop after dealing with him a couple of times.
>
> But manager of the local Performance shop quit some months ago
> and, as far as I can see, the soul has gone out of the place.
>
> That guy would do anything for a customer.
>
> Now it's just a bunch of people punching the clock. Went in
> there a few weeks ago to order a Gravity Dropper seatpost. Found
> it in the catalog, asked the guy "How much?". Guy said "Dunno".
> I said "How about finding out?" Guy said "We only call orders in
> on Mondays. We'll find out then."
>
> So I went home and bought it online from PricePoint... probably
> significantly cheaper.... and haven't looked back.
>
> If I need something locally, there's a good chance I'll start
> going back to the LBS - hard-nosed or not.
> --
> PeteCresswell

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:53 PM

Michael Baldwin wrote:
> Back in late August I tried to buy a set of CX tires locally (within 20
> miles). I called 3 LBS's...LBS#1- Sorry, no CX tires in stock, they're
> "not in season" yet. Thank You, "click" LBS#2- I don't think we
> sell "that" brand. Thank You, "click" LBS#3 - Yep. I have one 29'er
> in stock, a Panaracer,,, I think. Thank You, "click"
>
> I then called a shop 90 miles away. They stocked several brands with a
> fine selection in treads and widths. I called to more shops in the
> general region and they too had similar selections to offer.
>
> To quote Tip O'Neil, "all politics are local", I'm learning that these
> days, regardless the endeavor, customer service is as well. While I
> live within 20 miles of city with a population of over 150,000, I
> routinely need to shop in other, often smaller and more distant
> communities with businesses that meet my expectations.
>
> Having formally been in the retail/service sector, I'm very aware of
> the daily challenges that a small entrepreneur faces. I must admit
> however, I'm growing increasingly weary of trying to support local
> "mom & pop" operations that can't even compete amongst themselves.

I found one semi mom and pop chain that has two stores near me and is
about as non-pro shop as you can find.

Four times I've gone in there and found what I was looking for (twice in
stock, once they immediately offered to get it for me in a couple of
days). In one instance it was 24" road tires for my son's bicycle. I
don't think any shop stocks them, but Specialized makes them and any
Specialized dealer can order them if they really want to. In another
instance it was a Snell-approved helmet, which are relatively hard to
find but again this shop had some from Specialized, at a very good
price. A third time was for a rear rack from Jandd, that I was sure that
no one would have, but they had it (I ended up not buying it because it
lacked a reflector bracket). In another instance, it was side-entry
water bottle cage for a bicycle with a frame that could not work with a
regular cage. In each case, the shops closer to me did not have the item
and had no interest in trying to get it. To them, someone spending $40
on some tires, or $40 on a helmet, or $80 on a rack, is not someone
worth worrying about.

I too have become weary trying to go to the poorly stocked shops. If
Performance, REI, or Off Ramp doesn't have it, then I order it on-line.

I think that the small shops aren't even all that interested in selling
accessories. While the margins are higher than on complete bikes, there
is just too much involved in keeping up the inventory for relatively low
priced stuff.

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:53 PM

Matt O'Toole wrote:

> Especially a weekend day for a bike shop! (Sorry Chris.)

Presumably these shops have evaluated the cost of staying open on Sunday
versus the amount of business they lose, and have decided that it's more
profitable to close on Sunday. Perhaps they're not concerned about how
much they lose by closing Sunday. Perhaps they are closed for religious
reasons, just as the Orthodox Jewish-owned camera stores in NYC close on
Saturday.

In any case, there are enough shops that are open on Sunday to take up
the slack.

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-03-1970, 05:54 PM

>> I could never understand why a guy who pays rent every day would blow a
>> goodbye kiss to 15% of his revenue buy actually closing a whole day out
>> of every seven.
>
> I was just thinking the same thing. Look at the Chinese-owned stores and
> they stay open as long hours as possible, often to the limit of what the
> city where they are located allows. Then again, these are usually
> family-owned stores, where the non-core hour staff consists of unpaid
> family members.

Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that there
haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various businesses in the
past. In California, it's very, very expensive to remain open more than 8
hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If employees were allowed to
work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard pay, the world would be a very
different place for many small businesses. But as things stand, we cannot
afford to pay overtime to stay open late, even though many of our employees
would very much enjoy a 4-day workweek.

> The bike shop doesn't need to be fully staffed at night and on weekends,
> just enough of a staff to sell merchandise.

Not quite. If you don't have adequate staffing in the evening hours or on a
weekend, you run a very high risk of robbery & shop lifting. Plus it's
impossible, even after doing this for 29 years, to know when the customers
are going to show up. When it's quiet, we often joke that the customers are
massing in the parking lot, getting ready for their next attack.

And, of course, there's the balancing act of business vs family. These days,
most small businesses don't survive without some degree of subsidization
from the family. That comes in many forms; sometimes family members working
at the business (guilty), sometimes meaning that the owner works a
ridiculous number of hours (guilty), sometimes meaning that, during leaner
months, the owner finances the business him/herself via credit lines on
their homes (also guilty).

With that as a backdrop, you can see the reasons why I have drawn the line
at being open only six days a week, 8 hours a day. I'm not saying that,
strictly from a business standpoint, you're not absolutely 100% correct in
suggesting that Chain Reaction Bicycles would be better off open the same
hours as Performance. But as long as it's my business, that won't happen,
because I'm the weak link in the chain that can't properly pull it off. If I
could, I'd be running a very different type of business, for good & bad.

Andy's the extreme, as you can tell from his infamous tagline- "Open every
day since 1 April, 1971." I don't know how he does it, nor even why.
Obviously it works well for him. And so far he's survived maybe 10 years
longer than I have.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

(PeteCresswell)

01-03-1970, 05:54 PM

Per Mike Jacoubowsky:
>Well, I've got a Jackie Cresswell that shows up in our computer (last
>purchase in 1999) but no Pete....
>
>Maybe I deleted you from the computer during one of my hard-nosed momnets?
>:>)

Until the Internet, my dad had me convinced that our family and
one other were the only Cresswells in the USA.

Now I find out we've been breeding like flies.
--
PeteCresswell

Scott Gordo

01-03-1970, 05:54 PM

On Oct 24, 11:56 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
> > Especially a weekend day for a bike shop! (Sorry Chris.)
>
> Presumably these shops have evaluated the cost of staying open on Sunday
> versus the amount of business they lose, and have decided that it's more
> profitable to close on Sunday. Perhaps they're not concerned about how
> much they lose by closing Sunday. Perhaps they are closed for religious
> reasons, just as the Orthodox Jewish-owned camera stores in NYC close on
> Saturday.
>
> In any case, there are enough shops that are open on Sunday to take up
> the slack.

Last time I checked, you can't even order from http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
(the Orthodox Jewish store you likely refer to) during NYC's Shabbat
hours.

/s

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:54 PM

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> I could never understand why a guy who pays rent every day would blow a
>>> goodbye kiss to 15% of his revenue buy actually closing a whole day out
>>> of every seven.
>> I was just thinking the same thing. Look at the Chinese-owned stores and
>> they stay open as long hours as possible, often to the limit of what the
>> city where they are located allows. Then again, these are usually
>> family-owned stores, where the non-core hour staff consists of unpaid
>> family members.
>
> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that there
> haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various businesses in the
> past. In California, it's very, very expensive to remain open more than 8
> hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If employees were allowed to
> work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard pay, the world would be a very
> different place for many small businesses. But as things stand, we cannot
> afford to pay overtime to stay open late, even though many of our employees
> would very much enjoy a 4-day workweek.

Can you make the employees supervisory so they are exempt? Then they can
work any number of hours for the same pay.

>> The bike shop doesn't need to be fully staffed at night and on weekends,
>> just enough of a staff to sell merchandise.
>
> Not quite. If you don't have adequate staffing in the evening hours or on a
> weekend, you run a very high risk of robbery & shop lifting. Plus it's
> impossible, even after doing this for 29 years, to know when the customers
> are going to show up. When it's quiet, we often joke that the customers are
> massing in the parking lot, getting ready for their next attack.
>
> And, of course, there's the balancing act of business vs family. These days,
> most small businesses don't survive without some degree of subsidization
> from the family. That comes in many forms; sometimes family members working
> at the business (guilty), sometimes meaning that the owner works a
> ridiculous number of hours (guilty), sometimes meaning that, during leaner
> months, the owner finances the business him/herself via credit lines on
> their homes (also guilty).
>
> With that as a backdrop, you can see the reasons why I have drawn the line
> at being open only six days a week, 8 hours a day. I'm not saying that,
> strictly from a business standpoint, you're not absolutely 100% correct in
> suggesting that Chain Reaction Bicycles would be better off open the same
> hours as Performance. But as long as it's my business, that won't happen,
> because I'm the weak link in the chain that can't properly pull it off. If I
> could, I'd be running a very different type of business, for good & bad.
>
> Andy's the extreme, as you can tell from his infamous tagline- "Open every
> day since 1 April, 1971." I don't know how he does it, nor even why.

On a slow day, he can fill in the time by posting to rec.bicycles.tech. :)

> Obviously it works well for him. And so far he's survived maybe 10 years
> longer than I have.

Andrew's shop has been open for 36½ years [1], and Mike's for 29 years.
I get 7½ years as the difference, not 10. Also, Andrew did not own
Yellow Jersey in its earliest years.

[1] 36ALT0189 for gene.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:54 PM

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that there
> haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various businesses in the
> past. In California, it's very, very expensive to remain open more than 8
> hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If employees were allowed to
> work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard pay, the world would be a very
> different place for many small businesses. But as things stand, we cannot
> afford to pay overtime to stay open late, even though many of our employees
> would very much enjoy a 4-day workweek.

Assuming that you're paying more than minimum wage, if the employees
really wanted a 4 day work week they would agree to hourly wage
adjustments that would keep their take home pay the same, i.e. the
average hourly rate would be the same, but it would be slightly lower
for the first eight hours, and much higher for the second two hours due
to overtime time and a half.

In any case, I think that opening six days a week is sufficient, as long
as the seventh day is not Saturday or Sunday. But that's solely from a
customer's point of view, I understand why family time on weekends is
necessary.

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 05:54 PM

>>> I could never understand why a guy who pays rent every day would blow a
>>> goodbye kiss to 15% of his revenue buy actually closing a whole day out
>>> of every seven.

>> I was just thinking the same thing. Look at the Chinese-owned stores and
>> they stay open as long hours as possible, often to the limit of what the
>> city where they are located allows. Then again, these are usually
>> family-owned stores, where the non-core hour staff consists of unpaid
>> family members.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that there
> haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various businesses in the
> past. In California, it's very, very expensive to remain open more than 8
> hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If employees were allowed to
> work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard pay, the world would be a very
> different place for many small businesses. But as things stand, we cannot
> afford to pay overtime to stay open late, even though many of our employees
> would very much enjoy a 4-day workweek.

>> The bike shop doesn't need to be fully staffed at night and on weekends,
>> just enough of a staff to sell merchandise.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Not quite. If you don't have adequate staffing in the evening hours or on a
> weekend, you run a very high risk of robbery & shop lifting. Plus it's
> impossible, even after doing this for 29 years, to know when the customers
> are going to show up. When it's quiet, we often joke that the customers are
> massing in the parking lot, getting ready for their next attack.

> And, of course, there's the balancing act of business vs family. These days,
> most small businesses don't survive without some degree of subsidization
> from the family. That comes in many forms; sometimes family members working
> at the business (guilty), sometimes meaning that the owner works a
> ridiculous number of hours (guilty), sometimes meaning that, during leaner
> months, the owner finances the business him/herself via credit lines on
> their homes (also guilty).

> With that as a backdrop, you can see the reasons why I have drawn the line
> at being open only six days a week, 8 hours a day. I'm not saying that,
> strictly from a business standpoint, you're not absolutely 100% correct in
> suggesting that Chain Reaction Bicycles would be better off open the same
> hours as Performance. But as long as it's my business, that won't happen,
> because I'm the weak link in the chain that can't properly pull it off. If I
> could, I'd be running a very different type of business, for good & bad.

> Andy's the extreme, as you can tell from his infamous tagline- "Open every
> day since 1 April, 1971." I don't know how he does it, nor even why.
> Obviously it works well for him. And so far he's survived maybe 10 years
> longer than I have.

Not to mention that Mike's 'open hours' are probably not the actual
hours he works. If his is a typical small business, add another 25~50%
before and after 'open hours'.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Matt O'Toole

01-03-1970, 05:54 PM

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:44:56 -0700, peter wrote:

> On Oct 24, 1:00 pm, Donga <idomybestworkonab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 25, 4:59 am, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
>
>> > At least it would be filled with something. These days, most downtowns
>> > are either dying or dead. Customers drive to the Big Box stores now.
>>
>> One day they will cycle there.
>
> At least the Walmart and Target near me have conveniently located bike
> racks.

Where is this? They sure don't around here, and claim it's corporate
policy.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole

01-03-1970, 05:56 PM

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:18:18 -0700, SMS wrote:

> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that
>> there haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various
>> businesses in the past. In California, it's very, very expensive to
>> remain open more than 8 hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If
>> employees were allowed to work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard
>> pay, the world would be a very different place for many small
>> businesses. But as things stand, we cannot afford to pay overtime to
>> stay open late, even though many of our employees would very much enjoy
>> a 4-day workweek.

I didn't realize you couldn't have 10x4 work weeks in California. Or is
that only for hourly workers?

> Assuming that you're paying more than minimum wage, if the employees
> really wanted a 4 day work week they would agree to hourly wage
> adjustments that would keep their take home pay the same, i.e. the
> average hourly rate would be the same, but it would be slightly lower
> for the first eight hours, and much higher for the second two hours due
> to overtime time and a half.
>
> In any case, I think that opening six days a week is sufficient, as long
> as the seventh day is not Saturday or Sunday. But that's solely from a
> customer's point of view, I understand why family time on weekends is
> necessary.

I think we all do. However most shops probably have staff who can
pick up the slack on those days, so everyone gets some weekend day off.

I wouldn't go into the retail business without expecting to remain open
all weekend, whether or not I had to be there myself.

My sister has an interior design business that includes a furniture
store, soon to be 2 stores. If she closes at all, it's Monday or Tuesday.
It would be stupid to close Saturday or Sunday, when everyone's out
cruising around, and browsing for stuff like furniture.

I would think bike shops are the same way, with everyone biking and/or
thinking about biking on the weekends.

Even opening half the day is a world apart from closing completely. While
Mike notes how customers can arrive at any time, I bet that if he kept
records on this, he'd find there are distinct patterns, and that certain
periods are more "worthwhile" than others. This is why a lot of small
shops of all kinds are open 11-7 instead of 9-5 or 10-6. They get a lot
more customers 5-7pm than 9-11am. A lot more people will come in on their
way to/from lunch or after work than in the morning.

Matt O.

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:56 PM

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> ...But that's solely from a
> customer's point of view, I understand why family time on weekends is
> necessary.

Bloody Commie.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:57 PM

Donald Gillies wrote:
> wrench4life <wrench4life@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
>> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?
>
> walmart, target, and performance cut out the middle-man overhead. In
> many cases performance can sell some products more cheaply than your
> LBS can order them at wholesale price (quote from LBS owner.)
>
> Since the purchase of bike nashbar and supergo, performance now has
> operations in most states and must collect sales taxes....

Many states legally require sales tax to be paid on mail order items,
but this is hard to enforce, as it would require an audit and thorough
investigation of every taxpayer.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

datakoll

01-03-1970, 05:57 PM

I patronize two and 1/2 bike machine shops, one on the east coast of
FL and one west, Schwinn Ft Myers and Bicyclery W. Palm Beach.
If you don't give them business $$$ they will not be there to support
you.
buy a power bar when in whining about tubes or ...
then there's Nbar, Universal Cycles, Campmor and REI for heavy
lifting.
If I bought ony from the LBS and not from the latter, the entire scene
becomes unaffordable.
or single speed cruisers.
itsa solar system of suppliers.

Marian

01-03-1970, 05:57 PM

My local bike shop is growing and recently opened a branch store in
another city.

They have always specialized in selling high-end bicycles though, in
the last five years, and especially the last two years, the definition
of high-end has rapidly changed to the point where the bike shop owner
no longer understands the vast majority of what she has in stock and
all the mechanics have far nicer bikes than she does.

Even within China it is uncommon for a real bike shop to be owned by
someone who isn't a cyclist and with the exception of the local bike
shop there is no one else in the country at her absolute stellar level
of quality where the boss doesn't ride. (I'd say she probably does in
a month what any one of the racers does on a single training ride.)

-M

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:57 PM

Steve Gravrock wrote:
> On 2007-10-24, * * Chas <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>> I like to support my LBSs. I check with them first and unless something is
>> priced way out of line I will pay 5% to 20% more just for the convenience
>> of having a LBS.
>
> That's pretty much the way I approach it. For me, mail order is
> inconvenient. I'm not home during delivery hours so I invariably have to
> pick the package up at the shipping company's depot.

LOL, obviously in your area Fed Ex and UPS don't perform their famous,
ring, drop, and run procedure on packages. I think it varies by
neighborhood. Clearly they've determined than not dealing with multiple
deliveries and will call is worth an occasional stolen package.

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-03-1970, 05:57 PM

Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.10.25.18.56.33.238529@letterboxes.or g...> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007
08:18:18 -0700, SMS wrote:
>
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>>> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that
>>> there haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various
>>> businesses in the past. In California, it's very, very expensive to
>>> remain open more than 8 hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If
>>> employees were allowed to work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard
>>> pay, the world would be a very different place for many small
>>> businesses. But as things stand, we cannot afford to pay overtime to
>>> stay open late, even though many of our employees would very much enjoy
>>> a 4-day workweek.
>
> I didn't realize you couldn't have 10x4 work weeks in California. Or is
> that only for hourly workers?

Only for hourly workers, but there are many requirements for "exempt" status
that a service-oriented business cannot meet. Doesn't matter, some do claim
exempt status for non-management employees, and when they get caught, it can
be very bad. As it should be. There are rules laid down regarding working
conditions, and those rules are there by & large for good reason. With the
possible exception, of course, of the impossibility of a 4-day work week
without it involving overtime.

>> Assuming that you're paying more than minimum wage, if the employees
>> really wanted a 4 day work week they would agree to hourly wage
>> adjustments that would keep their take home pay the same, i.e. the
>> average hourly rate would be the same, but it would be slightly lower
>> for the first eight hours, and much higher for the second two hours due
>> to overtime time and a half.

That gets really weird. In principle, yes, it makes sense. In practice, it's
questionable at best, and probably doesn't pass the looks-like-a-duck,
quacks-like-a-duck test, since you'd probably have other employees working
similar positions, not working a 4 day week, and getting paid more per
hour... which, I'll bet, runs you afoul of something somewhere along the
lines. If every single employee was treated exactly the same, it wouldn't be
an issue (for the labor laws).

>> In any case, I think that opening six days a week is sufficient, as long
>> as the seventh day is not Saturday or Sunday. But that's solely from a
>> customer's point of view, I understand why family time on weekends is
>> necessary.
>
> I think we all do. However most shops probably have staff who can
> pick up the slack on those days, so everyone gets some weekend day off.

Most small businesses are, as I pointed out, subsidized by owners who spend
far too much time working, basically covering up for their various
management deficiences and the inherently unforgiving nature of running a
small business. There are so many ways things can go wrong, and so little
cushion to fall back upon. But nevertheless it is a problem of *mine* that I
have a difficult time being away from the business when the doors are open.
I admit that things might be better otherwise.

> I wouldn't go into the retail business without expecting to remain open
> all weekend, whether or not I had to be there myself.
>
> My sister has an interior design business that includes a furniture
> store, soon to be 2 stores. If she closes at all, it's Monday or Tuesday.
> It would be stupid to close Saturday or Sunday, when everyone's out
> cruising around, and browsing for stuff like furniture.

To some extent it depends upon your location. Our Los Altos store is open
both Saturdays and Sundays, but closed on Mondays. So between the two
stores, you *can* get to us 7 days/week. We chose the Los Altos store to be
open Sundays due to its location in a shopping center, while our Redwood
City location has very little drop-in traffic, and when we have been open on
Sundays, there's not too much interest. Not even many phone calls come in
(open or not, despite the fact that most people calling on the phone
wouldn't know that we'd be closed on a Sunday).

> I would think bike shops are the same way, with everyone biking and/or
> thinking about biking on the weekends.

Which is why Saturdays are so much busier than Sundays. You buy the bike, or
get one fixed, on a Saturday so you can ride it on Sunday.

> Even opening half the day is a world apart from closing completely. While
> Mike notes how customers can arrive at any time, I bet that if he kept
> records on this, he'd find there are distinct patterns, and that certain
> periods are more "worthwhile" than others. This is why a lot of small
> shops of all kinds are open 11-7 instead of 9-5 or 10-6. They get a lot
> more customers 5-7pm than 9-11am. A lot more people will come in on their
> way to/from lunch or after work than in the morning.

The only thing I can guarantee, after all these years, is that things get
extremely busy on a Saturday at 2:15pm, +/- 3 minutes. It's bizarre. But
yes, I have the data, by hour, by day of week, everything. And I do try and
make sense of it. But there's very little to make sense of!

> Matt O.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:57 PM

Matt O'Toole wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:18:18 -0700, SMS wrote:
>
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>>> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that
>>> there haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various
>>> businesses in the past. In California, it's very, very expensive to
>>> remain open more than 8 hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If
>>> employees were allowed to work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard
>>> pay, the world would be a very different place for many small
>>> businesses. But as things stand, we cannot afford to pay overtime to
>>> stay open late, even though many of our employees would very much enjoy
>>> a 4-day workweek.
>
> I didn't realize you couldn't have 10x4 work weeks in California. Or is
> that only for hourly workers?

I think for a while overtime only kicked in after 40 hours per week,
regardless of the number of hours per day. However too many employers
were abusing this system, requiring 12 hour days and not having to pay
overtime.

In any case, if non-union workers really want a 10x4 work week it's not
difficult to implement it with the same net weekly pay, unless you're
paying less than 150% of minimum wage.

SMS

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> That gets really weird. In principle, yes, it makes sense. In practice, it's
> questionable at best, and probably doesn't pass the looks-like-a-duck,
> quacks-like-a-duck test, since you'd probably have other employees working
> similar positions, not working a 4 day week, and getting paid more per
> hour... which, I'll bet, runs you afoul of something somewhere along the
> lines. If every single employee was treated exactly the same, it wouldn't be
> an issue (for the labor laws).

Where is it ever stated that all employees performing the same function
must receive the same pay rate?

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.10.25.18.56.33.238529@letterboxes.or g...> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007
> 08:18:18 -0700, SMS wrote:
>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>
>>>> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that
>>>> there haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various
>>>> businesses in the past. In California, it's very, very expensive to
>>>> remain open more than 8 hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If
>>>> employees were allowed to work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard
>>>> pay, the world would be a very different place for many small
>>>> businesses. But as things stand, we cannot afford to pay overtime to
>>>> stay open late, even though many of our employees would very much enjoy
>>>> a 4-day workweek.
>> I didn't realize you couldn't have 10x4 work weeks in California. Or is
>> that only for hourly workers?
>
> Only for hourly workers, but there are many requirements for "exempt" status
> that a service-oriented business cannot meet. Doesn't matter, some do claim
> exempt status for non-management employees, and when they get caught, it can
> be very bad. As it should be. There are rules laid down regarding working
> conditions, and those rules are there by & large for good reason....

WHAT! In a free market, there is no need for labor laws, since the
workers are free to choose the best employer, no?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> Steve Gravrock wrote:
>> On 2007-10-24, * * Chas <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I like to support my LBSs. I check with them first and unless
>>> something is
>>> priced way out of line I will pay 5% to 20% more just for the
>>> convenience
>>> of having a LBS.
>>
>> That's pretty much the way I approach it. For me, mail order is
>> inconvenient. I'm not home during delivery hours so I invariably have to
>> pick the package up at the shipping company's depot.
>
> LOL, obviously in your area Fed Ex and UPS don't perform their famous,
> ring, drop, and run procedure on packages. I think it varies by
> neighborhood. Clearly they've determined than not dealing with multiple
> deliveries and will call is worth an occasional stolen package.

In some neighborhoods, the percentage of unattended packages stolen
would approach 100%.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

> In any case, if non-union workers really want a 10x4 work week it's not
> difficult to implement it with the same net weekly pay, unless you're
> paying less than 150% of minimum wage.

Only in an environment in which every single employee is treated the same.
You can't have people doing the same or similar jobs and being paid
substantially different wages/hour without running into trouble. So if
*everyone* is working a 4-day week, no problem. But otherwise? All it would
likely take is one person complaining to the NLRB and you're in trouble.
And, since the intent is to skirt the law, rightfully so.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:472108b3$0$79884$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:18:18 -0700, SMS wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>
>>>> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that
>>>> there haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various
>>>> businesses in the past. In California, it's very, very expensive to
>>>> remain open more than 8 hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If
>>>> employees were allowed to work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard
>>>> pay, the world would be a very different place for many small
>>>> businesses. But as things stand, we cannot afford to pay overtime to
>>>> stay open late, even though many of our employees would very much enjoy
>>>> a 4-day workweek.
>>
>> I didn't realize you couldn't have 10x4 work weeks in California. Or is
>> that only for hourly workers?
>
> I think for a while overtime only kicked in after 40 hours per week,
> regardless of the number of hours per day. However too many employers were
> abusing this system, requiring 12 hour days and not having to pay
> overtime.
>
> In any case, if non-union workers really want a 10x4 work week it's not
> difficult to implement it with the same net weekly pay, unless you're
> paying less than 150% of minimum wage.

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:18:18 -0700, SMS wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>
>>>> Labor regulations are quite different for family members, not that
>>>> there haven't been substantial abuses of labor laws by various
>>>> businesses in the past. In California, it's very, very expensive to
>>>> remain open more than 8 hours/day due to the present overtime rules. If
>>>> employees were allowed to work a 10 hour shift 4 days/week at standard
>>>> pay, the world would be a very different place for many small
>>>> businesses. But as things stand, we cannot afford to pay overtime to
>>>> stay open late, even though many of our employees would very much enjoy
>>>> a 4-day workweek.
>>
>> I didn't realize you couldn't have 10x4 work weeks in California. Or is
>> that only for hourly workers?
>
> I think for a while overtime only kicked in after 40 hours per week,
> regardless of the number of hours per day. However too many employers
> were abusing this system, requiring 12 hour days and not having to pay
> overtime....

What is wrong with that? It is a free market, after all.

Some job in a state university system are three (3) thirteen (13) hour
shifts per week.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

>> That gets really weird. In principle, yes, it makes sense. In practice,
>> it's questionable at best, and probably doesn't pass the
>> looks-like-a-duck, quacks-like-a-duck test, since you'd probably have
>> other employees working similar positions, not working a 4 day week, and
>> getting paid more per hour... which, I'll bet, runs you afoul of
>> something somewhere along the lines. If every single employee was treated
>> exactly the same, it wouldn't be an issue (for the labor laws).
>
> Where is it ever stated that all employees performing the same function
> must receive the same pay rate?

It isn't, per se. But it can be used as a basis for determining all manner
of discrimination or unfair labor practices.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:47210a1a$0$79917$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> That gets really weird. In principle, yes, it makes sense. In practice,
>> it's questionable at best, and probably doesn't pass the
>> looks-like-a-duck, quacks-like-a-duck test, since you'd probably have
>> other employees working similar positions, not working a 4 day week, and
>> getting paid more per hour... which, I'll bet, runs you afoul of
>> something somewhere along the lines. If every single employee was treated
>> exactly the same, it wouldn't be an issue (for the labor laws).
>
> Where is it ever stated that all employees performing the same function
> must receive the same pay rate?

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>> That gets really weird. In principle, yes, it makes sense. In
>> practice, it's questionable at best, and probably doesn't pass the
>> looks-like-a-duck, quacks-like-a-duck test, since you'd probably have
>> other employees working similar positions, not working a 4 day week,
>> and getting paid more per hour... which, I'll bet, runs you afoul of
>> something somewhere along the lines. If every single employee was
>> treated exactly the same, it wouldn't be an issue (for the labor laws).
>
> Where is it ever stated that all employees performing the same function
> must receive the same pay rate?

Do not the employees that golf with the boss, and make sure that the
boss wins get the highest pay?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Clive George

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:te22i35o9c6knduobuvfqtqc8s843ttauq@4ax.com...
> Per Mike Jacoubowsky:
>>Well, I've got a Jackie Cresswell that shows up in our computer (last
>>purchase in 1999) but no Pete....
>>
>>Maybe I deleted you from the computer during one of my hard-nosed momnets?
>>:>)
>
> Until the Internet, my dad had me convinced that our family and
> one other were the only Cresswells in the USA.
>
> Now I find out we've been breeding like flies.

I knew a man named Pete Cresswell when I was a kid, but not in the USA, so
that makes you common as muck :-)

cheers,
clive

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 05:58 PM

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> In any case, if non-union workers really want a 10x4 work week it's not
>> difficult to implement it with the same net weekly pay, unless you're
>> paying less than 150% of minimum wage.
>
> Only in an environment in which every single employee is treated the same.
> You can't have people doing the same or similar jobs and being paid
> substantially different wages/hour without running into trouble. So if
> *everyone* is working a 4-day week, no problem. But otherwise? All it would
> likely take is one person complaining to the NLRB and you're in trouble.
> And, since the intent is to skirt the law, rightfully so.

Not for exempt employees is this true. Those who sell themselves well in
an interview can get hired on at 50 percent higher wage than current
employees doing the same level of work.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

Jon Forrest

01-03-1970, 06:01 PM

My brother used to own The Spokesman in Santa Cruz, Cal.
In spite of the fact that there's a lot of competition in
that town, this store did quite well. But, my brother
got tired of the hassle of being in a retail business
so he sold out and tried selling real estate. It turned
out that selling real estate was even more of a hassle
than being in retail so now he's opened up another
bike store, this time in Watsonville, Cal.

Maybe this kind of thing is the reason why other
neighborhood bike stops are fading away.

Jon Forrest

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 06:06 PM

>> wrench4life <wrench4life@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Is it just me or are the old school, "mom & pop" bike shops fading
>>> away due to places like walmart,target, and performance?

> Donald Gillies wrote:
>> walmart, target, and performance cut out the middle-man overhead. In
>> many cases performance can sell some products more cheaply than your
>> LBS can order them at wholesale price (quote from LBS owner.)
>> Since the purchase of bike nashbar and supergo, performance now has
>> operations in most states and must collect sales taxes....

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Many states legally require sales tax to be paid on mail order items,
> but this is hard to enforce, as it would require an audit and thorough
> investigation of every taxpayer.

A State of Wisconsin Revenue employee, a former manager here, just sent
a dunning letter for 'use tax' to another ex-employee who worked under
him at one time. Small world.

In fact a case has to be egregious to attract attention. Anyone
following the proposal to tax net sales in the House? Scary. While
claiming 'extend tax moratorium' only on net access fees, and
temporarily at that, it opens States' opportunity to dip their greedy
mitts into interstate commerce.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971