Strobe lights ?

[still me]

So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).

My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
and my second thought was WTF!

[jim beam]

still me wrote:
> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
> other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>
> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
> and my second thought was WTF!
>
>

but did it attract your attention? or were you too busy trying to
calculate your intersection coordinates to stay out of its way?

[DougC]

still me wrote:
> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
> other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>
> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
> and my second thought was WTF!
>
>

Some lights have a setting for this; the Cateye EL-410 is one.

Silly me, I always thought that the purpose of a headlight was to, you
know, illuminate the roadway ahead of the bicycle, and a strobe effect
would have little benefit. In the midwestern US I rarely see people
riding with blinking headlights.
~

[c]

Bikes with hub generators, riding at a low speed give strobe light.
(The blinking period is really faster than blinking lights)

c

still me wrote:
> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
> other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>
> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
> and my second thought was WTF!
>
>

[dabac]

still me Wrote:
> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
> other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>
> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
> and my second thought was WTF!

After having done a couple of weeks of bike commuting to work, usually
in less than ideal visibility conditions I must say that I'm quite in
favor of lights in general and flashing lights in particular.
Although I wouldn't want to use them to light my way (if it was dark
enough for that to be called for) they do make it far easier to spot
other riders, so probably they'd make me easier to spot too.
Foggy/drizzly mornings I've run flashers myself, although the ambient
light has been quite acceptable to ride by. If I set my light on
High-Fixed(which is quite good both to see with, and to be seen by) I
got maybe 90 minutes runtime, on flash I've supposedly got over 100
hours. With a 65-80 minute commute each way that's another compelling
argument for using the flash setting.


--
dabac

[Crescentius Vespasianus]

still me wrote:
> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
> other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>
> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
> and my second thought was WTF!
>
-----------------
You might of seen a DiNotte in flash
mode, which is very powerful. I don't
use the flash mode now, until the sun is
about to rise, and there is ambient
light out there. In the pitch black it
seems to freeze cars, because they can't
figure out what that huge white flasher
is. So you have the absurd situation
where, cars wait 3-5 minutes before
coming out on the street, when they have
plenty of time to get out there, before
you go in front of them. You can see a
DiNotte flasher in the middle of the day.

[Scott Gordo]

On Oct 27, 10:36 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
> other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>
> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
> and my second thought was WTF!

Wait, so, strobe lights and neon spandex, NOT your kind of party?

Scott "stack of singles" Gordo

[nmp]

jim beam wrote:

> still me wrote:
>> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
>> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the other
>> way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>>
>> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
>> and my second thought was WTF!
>>
>>
>>
> but did it attract your attention? or were you too busy trying to
> calculate your intersection coordinates to stay out of its way?

The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
otherwise not be seen.

For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.

[jim beam]

nmp wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> still me wrote:
>>> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
>>> corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the other
>>> way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>>>
>>> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
>>> and my second thought was WTF!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> but did it attract your attention? or were you too busy trying to
>> calculate your intersection coordinates to stay out of its way?
>
> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
> or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
> lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
> otherwise not be seen.
>
> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.
>

i think the more important question is not about a law dating back from
whenever actually standing on the books, but whether your police
actually enforce it. have you experience of this? what is the habit of
local riders?

[me]

"nmp" <address@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:47235786$0$232$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
(snip)
>
> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
> or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
> lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
> otherwise not be seen.
>
(snip)

What's the difference between attracting attention and making something
visible? Seems to me that if a bike light reaches the level of being
consciously perceived it has done both. Anything that makes a cyclist
sharing the roadways with motorized vehicles more immediately perceptible
among the cacophony of distractions many drivers choose to surround
themselves with these days is a good thing. Personally, I WANT to
successfully compete for drivers' attention with their in-car TVs,
cell-phones, food items they are stuffing themselves with as they drive,
fighting kids in the back seat, etc.

So, I wear bright clothing, put reflective items on the bike and myself,
run a red strobe as well as blinking LEDs on the back, have two CCF light
tubes on the seat stays, and use a powerful dual-beam headlight. People I
know who happen to pass me in their cars tell me later, "I saw you on the
way to work today." That's exactly what I want - to be easily seen. Use
your faint steady lights if you choose to, but you probably won't have a
chance to change your mind if you get hit. The purpose of bicycle lights is
to keep you alive.

BTW, the state patrol officers who regularly pass me on the highway NEVER
bother me about my lights. They understand what I'm trying to do. They
know how inattentive many drivers are.

Cal

[Ben C]

On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
> or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
> lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
> otherwise not be seen.
>
> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.

Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
for the duration of each blink's off-phase.

I think they've changed the law here and they aren't illegal any more.

[nmp]

jim beam wrote:

> nmp wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> still me wrote:
>>>> So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around
>>>> a corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
>>>> other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>>>>
>>>> My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle
>>>> headlight, and my second thought was WTF!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> but did it attract your attention? or were you too busy trying to
>>> calculate your intersection coordinates to stay out of its way?
>>
>> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention
>> (and/ or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of
>> bicycle lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it
>> would otherwise not be seen.
>>
>> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic
>> lights.
>>
>>
> i think the more important question is not about a law dating back from
> whenever

In the case of the Dutch Voertuigreglement ("vehicle regulations"), that
would be 1994 (last updated).

> actually standing on the books, but whether your police actually
> enforce it.

Like police everywhere: when they feel like it. They certainly have the
right to do so.

> have you experience of this?

I was ticketed once for not having lights at all. I know people get
ticketed sometimes for having blinkers. But police officers sometimes
seem to feel "well at least he has SOMETHING that looks like a light".
They will tell you then to push the little button so it stops blinking
and starts emitting light continuously. You will be educated on the
requirements of the law and then sent off.

> what is the habit of local riders?

Having normal non-blinking lights is still the norm that most people
comply with. New bicycles (roadsters, not race/mountain bikes) will have
good functional lights on them almost without exception. OTOH cheap
blinkers are no longer rare since you can buy them at almost every
supermarket. Many people don't seem to be aware that they are illegal
when used in blinking mode. Many of them have unfortunately bought into
the silly misconception that blinkers are "better" or "saver".

They are not.

[datakoll]

I saw ONE also. VERY impressive rear red strobe. outstanding survival
value for the oncoming drunken SUV. Police cheapo is online at $25-30.
Master mechanic suggests strobe bulbs are more delicate than bike
lamps or bike LED.
>From watching once, considering the police model or two as the colors
are optional, is/as standard equipment for cross country touring or HD
commuting.

[nmp]

Ben C wrote:

> On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote: [...]
>> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention
>> (and/ or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of
>> bicycle lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it
>> would otherwise not be seen.
>>
>> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic
>> lights.
>
> Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
> rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
> consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
> for the duration of each blink's off-phase.

Thinking about that, I don't feel it is such an absurd consideration at
all. Lots of things can happen, and lives have been lost, in the blink of
an eye.

> I think they've changed the law here and they aren't illegal any more.

Irrationality does find its way into legislation sometimes.

[A Muzi]

> On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
>> or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
>> lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
>> otherwise not be seen.
>> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.

Ben C wrote:
> Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
> rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
> consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
> for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
> I think they've changed the law here and they aren't illegal any more.

Hmm that's a novel analysis.
My Japanese sources say red flashers are reserved for emergency
vehicles, hence no bike flashers there. A quick reading of US statutes
might make that a grey area here, too. In practice, cops seem to find
other activities to fill a shift besides writing cyclists for the
'wrong' kind of bike light.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[anth]

On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 11:54 -0500, Ben C wrote:
> Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
> rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
> consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
> for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>
> I think they've changed the law here and they aren't illegal any more.

There are standards that lights are required to meet, and those didn't
allow for flashing. I don't think it was because a flashing light is
only a light half the time so much as they weren't considered at all. Or
it could be that flashing lights were only allowed in certain
circumstances, eg by emergency services.

The highway code has been updated to allow flashing lights.
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4568

I think that bicycles (and trikes) are the only vehicles allowed to use
blinkies as their only lights. Emergency vehicles have flashing lights
of course, but these are in addition to the lights they are required to
have.

Four pedal reflectors are required too, and must be "plainly visible".
This doesn't make a lot of sense with panniers or especially a
recumbent. It makes almost all clipless pedals illegal, and selling a
bike fitted with them also illegal, but no one seems to care.

So much for .uk on to the country I live in now. In .nz I think there
was a prosecution several years ago against a cyclist who had a blinkie.
Flashing red (and/or blue) lights were only legal for emergency
services, but I don't know how the case turned out and suspect it got
dropped. It was several years ago, so I could be misremembering, and I
can't find anything on the web that refers to it. The law was changed to
allow blinkies.

We are allowed either steady or flashing lights, but if there are two at
the front only one can flash. Lights are required at night, of course.

Pedal reflectors or reflectorised clothing/straps on the lower leg are
also required. This gets ignored a lot.

[_]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:54:27 -0500, Ben C wrote:

> On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
>> or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
>> lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
>> otherwise not be seen.
>>
>> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.
>
> Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
> rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
> consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
> for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>

There's not at all illegal in the UK.

What is required is that you DO have a legal set of lights. Extra lights
are fine - as long as you also have the legal ones.

[It's Chris]

Red blinking lights are rarely (at least here in "the States") used as a
caution or warning blinker. Road hazards are marked with yellow or amber
flashers, Police use blue, Fire uses red but it's always mounted on the
top of the truck, and accompanied by a siren.

The only time you see a red flasher at road level is for a stopped or
slow moving vehicle that may pose a hazard to passing motorists. Since a
bicycle is a slow moving vehicle that may pose a hazard, I think it
qualifies.

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Oct 27, 1:05 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
> > I thought (based on
> > rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
> > consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
> > for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>
> Thinking about that, I don't feel it is such an absurd consideration at
> all. Lots of things can happen, and lives have been lost, in the blink of
> an eye.

Surely you're not serious!

Doubtlessly, lives have been lost in the blink of an eye. But I
really doubt any life ever been lost because a motorist saw a
cyclist's light blink, and blink, and blink, and blink... and then
suddenly thought "Oh, it's been dark for half a second. That
bicyclist must have vanished!"

- Frank Krygowski

[datakoll]

Another approach:
I bought one unknown quantity>
http://www.rei.com/product/723347
the unit doesn't flash! Sheeeet. So I set it on and outside, walked
back in and looked out thru the slider and it flashed. Yaaahhaaaa!
Light flashes switchless as the kayak rises, falls and jiggles thru a
jiggle lens.
Wanna get the scoop? Search: http://ecatalog.westmarine.com/

[SMS ???• ?]

A Muzi wrote:

> My Japanese sources say red flashers are reserved for emergency
> vehicles, hence no bike flashers there. A quick reading of US statutes
> might make that a grey area here, too. In practice, cops seem to find
> other activities to fill a shift besides writing cyclists for the
> 'wrong' kind of bike light.

It's a gray area. Flashing yellow lights are legal for warning about
"slow moving vehicles." Flashing red lights are legal in some states for
bicycles.

I find the flashing white lights on the front of bicycles to be mildly
annoying, but very visible.

[Pikachu]

In article <13i6v94gcmp9990@corp.supernews.com>,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> > On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> > [...]
> >> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
> >> or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
> >> lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
> >> otherwise not be seen.
> >> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
> >> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
> >> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
> >> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.
>
> Ben C wrote:
> > Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
> > rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
> > consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
> > for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
> > I think they've changed the law here and they aren't illegal any more.
>
> Hmm that's a novel analysis.
> My Japanese sources say red flashers are reserved for emergency
> vehicles, hence no bike flashers there. A quick reading of US statutes
> might make that a grey area here, too. In practice, cops seem to find
> other activities to fill a shift besides writing cyclists for the
> 'wrong' kind of bike light.

Seeing that a lot of cars sold in the US have red (vs. amber) turn
signals that also act as hazard lights as required, I doubt that there
are specific laws against red blinkers or flashers.

Pikachu

[nmp]

frkrygow wrote:

> On Oct 27, 1:05 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:
>> > I thought (based on
>> > rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
>> > consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at
>> > all for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>>
>> Thinking about that, I don't feel it is such an absurd consideration at
>> all. Lots of things can happen, and lives have been lost, in the blink
>> of an eye.
>
> Surely you're not serious!

Justabit...

> Doubtlessly, lives have been lost in the blink of an eye. But I really
> doubt any life ever been lost because a motorist saw a cyclist's light
> blink, and blink, and blink, and blink... and then suddenly thought "Oh,
> it's been dark for half a second. That bicyclist must have vanished!"

In some situations, there *might* not be enough time or opportunity to
see the blink-blink-blink happening before one hits the cyclist.

[still me]

On 27 Oct 2007 20:07:49 GMT, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:

>In some situations, there *might* not be enough time or opportunity to
>see the blink-blink-blink happening before one hits the cyclist.

Well, the one I posted about was way past "blink" and into "bright
white strobe headlight". I think it represented more of a hazard to
motorists than it did a safety device to bikers, at least on that dark
country road. Not to mention, as the bike's apparent headlight, one
has to assume the rider gets an interesting view of the road in front
of him.

I think it would be a "feature" if it was a small add on light
designed to draw some attention beyond that of the usual steady
headlight, but as a primary headlight, it was not a good thing.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Oct 27, 11:11 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 27 Oct 2007 20:07:49 GMT, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
> >In some situations, there *might* not be enough time or opportunity to
> >see the blink-blink-blink happening before one hits the cyclist.

I'm still skeptical. That would have to be limited to situations
where the cyclist came into the visual field only a second or so
before the crash.

> Well, the one I posted about was way past "blink" and into "bright
> white strobe headlight". I think it represented more of a hazard to
> motorists than it did a safety device to bikers, at least on that dark
> country road.

Yes, to me, anything as blinding as a strobe is mindless overkill.

> Not to mention, as the bike's apparent headlight, one
> has to assume the rider gets an interesting view of the road in front
> of him.
>
> I think it would be a "feature" if it was a small add on light
> designed to draw some attention beyond that of the usual steady
> headlight, but as a primary headlight, it was not a good thing.

ISTM that a blinking front LED in _addition_ to a proper steady
headlight, could add a modest bit of benefit. The effect would be
very similar to the modulated headlights used by some motorcyclists.

However, I'd stop way short of saying they're necessary on a bicycle -
which is where a lot of people seem to end up, when praising their
personal choice of safety equipment.

- Frank Krygowski

[Danny Colyer]

On 28/10/2007 22:29, _ wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:54:27 -0500, Ben C wrote:
>>On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
>>>For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>>>blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>>>understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>>>police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.
>>
>>Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
>>rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
>>consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
>>for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>
> There's not at all illegal in the UK.

I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
primary light:
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

The flashing rate is limited to 4 flashes per second, presumably to
prevent any possibility of a flashing light triggering an epileptic fit.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis

[Yannik]

On 2007-10-27, 15:36 still me wrote:

>So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
>corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
>other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
>My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
>and my second thought was WTF!


I just bought the lightman xenon strobe, in comparison to the LED blinky i
have from SIGMA it sucks...
It has a white xenon strobe inside, with the clear cover it is very
powerful, but it loses most of its power when you put the red cover on it!
It is multidirectional but behind the strobe there is a miror that focuses
the light forward, wich doenst make it more wide angeled than the sigma LED.
The LED flashes rather fast and with almost no time between the flashes, you
can look in to it and it captures attention verry well.
The strobe flashes once per second, it catches less attention and your eyes
can't look in to it, though it is not at all brighter than a LED.
Good for emergency strobe, not at all good stuff on a bike!
With the clear lens positioned to the front of the bike your eyes will have
difficulties due to the extremes between the on and of moments.
Then there are the bike mountings, not sturdy and they don't seem to be
designed for the strobe, one screw that only just gets in the whole of the
lightman and can not fix it as it should.


Yannik

[Paul Boyd]

Danny Colyer said the following on 28/10/2007 23:32:

> I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
> urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
> primary light:
> <http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>
>
> (FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
> rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
> flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

I knew flashing lights were now legal, but I didn't realise that they
were allowed to be the only light - I thought they had to be used in
conjunction with "legal" lights. I'm not happy with that either,
especially as a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow. A candle in a jar
would give more light!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

[Ben C]

On 2007-10-28, Danny Colyer <danny_colyer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 28/10/2007 22:29, _ wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:54:27 -0500, Ben C wrote:
>>>On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
>>>>For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>>>>blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>>>>understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>>>>police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.
>>>
>>>Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
>>>rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
>>>consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
>>>for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>>
>> There's not at all illegal in the UK.
>
> I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
> urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
> primary light:
><http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>
>
> (FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
> rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
> flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).
>
> The flashing rate is limited to 4 flashes per second, presumably to
> prevent any possibility of a flashing light triggering an epileptic fit.

Yes, I think about 11Hz is very bad for that.

I don't set my front LED light to flashing because it gives _me_ a
headache.

[mb]

> >>On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
> > > > For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to
> > > > have blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these
> > > > countries are understood to be indicators or
> > > > signaling/emergency lights. I think the police here
> > > > (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.
> > >

Don't know if they're illegal here (in NL), but I do see a fair few
cycles with them and they are on sale via the usual places. The police
also check on cycle lights during the winter months.

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record sprint mongrel
Huissoon project bike (in bits, natch)

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-10-28, Danny Colyer <danny_colyer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> (FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
> rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
> flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

I use my main rear light as a flashing light during the day (about 1.5
flashes per second, using six 1 watt Luxeon red LEDs, the purpose being
daylight conspicuity - after I was hit from the rear by a driver who
claimed not to have seen me at mid day on a straight road). I've looked
at lights on other vehicles quite carefully after that incident, and I
noticed that the powerful LED rear lights on motorcycles really give the
motorbike conspicuity during daylight hours if the motorcyclist has just
dabbed the brake. I did consider building the light with a strobe tube,
but after looking at the different kinds of lights on motorcycles, I
decided powerful LEDs would be fine, and it meant I didn't have 6kV
under the saddle.

The visibility of bright LEDs coming on is especially so if you're in the
sunshine and the motorcyclist is under the trees - it really improves
the contrast of the motorcycle and makes it stand out. High-vis jackets
don't show up very well in the situation of the car driver in the
sunshine and the bike under the trees, it all blends into the shadows.
But a bright flasing light does stand out, and what's more, testing my
own light on myself, it catches the peripheral vision from at least 50
feet away which is good if the car driver is fiddling with the radio and
not watching the road.

However, at night, the primary light is set to steady mode. Bright
flashing lights, I have found, make it more difficult to correctly judge
distance to the bike at night. My secondary light is a much less bright
ankle band (where the light is incorporated into a retroreflective band
- once the headlight's on it, the retroreflective will look much
brighter than the LED anyway, and the reciprocating motion will identify
me as being on a bike much more readily than just having a steady rear
light).

During dusk, I use the flash mode on my front light, since it's more
conspicuous. At night, steady only.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

[Coyoteboy]

Danny Colyer wrote:
> On 28/10/2007 22:29, _ wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:54:27 -0500, Ben C wrote:
>>> On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
>>>> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>>>> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>>>> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think
>>>> the police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon
>>>> stroboscopic lights.
>>>
>>> Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
>>> rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
>>> consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
>>> for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>>
>> There's not at all illegal in the UK.
>
> I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
> urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
> primary light:
> <http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>
>
> (FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
> rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
> flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).
>
> The flashing rate is limited to 4 flashes per second, presumably to
> prevent any possibility of a flashing light triggering an epileptic fit.
>

Must admit I'm a fan of flashing lights even as a sole source. They are
so much more noticable, "solid" lights blend in too much!

[Martin Dann]

Paul Boyd wrote:
> Danny Colyer said the following on 28/10/2007 23:32:
>
>> I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted
>> to urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even
>> as a primary light:
>> <http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>
>>
>> (FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for
>> flashing rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor
>> for any flashing light to be legal without having a steady light
>> alongside it).
>
> I knew flashing lights were now legal, but I didn't realise that they
> were allowed to be the only light - I thought they had to be used in
> conjunction with "legal" lights. I'm not happy with that either,
> especially as a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
> to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow. A candle in a jar
> would give more light!

A flashing lit used as a primary must have an intensity of at least four
candelas. They must also have a steady on-off pattern, no Morse code or
knight rider effects.

I always use a flashing lit in conjunction with a steady lit.

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:50:45 +0000, Paul Boyd
<usenet.is.worse@plusnet> wrote:

>Danny Colyer said the following on 28/10/2007 23:32:
>
>> I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
>> urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
>> primary light:
>> <http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>
>>
>> (FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
>> rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
>> flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).
>
>I knew flashing lights were now legal, but I didn't realise that they
>were allowed to be the only light - I thought they had to be used in
>conjunction with "legal" lights. I'm not happy with that either,
>especially as a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
>to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow. A candle in a jar
>would give more light!

Dear Paul,

Fireflies in whisky bottles and candles in paper Chinese lanterns were
once acceptable in the colonies:


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/d0606ce5d0738201/eec5bf40dc0cb52c?#eec5bf40dc0cb52c

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Danny Colyer]

On 29/10/2007 07:50, Paul Boyd wrote:
> ... a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
> to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow.

A lot of the ones I see these days, particularly at dusk (like this
evening's commute) are dazzlingly bright (not generally bright enough to
be a problem if they gave a steady light, but impossible to adjust to
when they keep flashing) and extremely unpleasant to ride towards.

I usually turn off my 20W Lumicycle (my most powerful front light) when
I meet someone coming the other way. I think it might be better not to
bother when I meet someone with one of these bright flashers - I need to
keep the path well lit in front of me when they're varying the light
levels so much.

Given that there's no street lighting for most of my commute, it must be
difficult for the riders to see the path/road ahead properly when the
light they choose to cast ahead of them keeps disappearing.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis

[nmp]

mb wrote:

>> >>On 2007-10-27, nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
>> > > > For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to
>> > > > have blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these
>> > > > countries are understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency
>> > > > lights. I think the police here (Netherlands) would certainly
>> > > > frown upon stroboscopic lights.
>> > >
>> > >
> Don't know if they're illegal here (in NL),

Voertuigreglement, Artikel 5.9.64

> but I do see a fair few cycles with them and they are on sale via the
> usual places. The police also check on cycle lights during the winter
> months.

[Danny Colyer]

On 29/10/2007 12:22, Dylan Smith wrote:
> During dusk, I use the flash mode on my front light, since it's more
> conspicuous.

And /really/ unpleasant for anyone riding towards you.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis

[datakoll]

White writes a coherent DiNotte at http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/dinotte.asp

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-10-29, Danny Colyer <danny_colyer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 29/10/2007 12:22, Dylan Smith wrote:
>> During dusk, I use the flash mode on my front light, since it's more
>> conspicuous.
>
> And /really/ unpleasant for anyone riding towards you.

At least they've seen me.

But unpleasant? I see other cyclists with blinky lights at dusk, and
I've never found them unpleasant, or indeed any other emotion-response
other than well, they at least stand out at junctions instead of
merging into the incredibly bright background of the car with its
headlights immediately behind.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

[Paul Boyd]

Dylan Smith said the following on 30/10/2007 13:02:

> But unpleasant? I see other cyclists with blinky lights at dusk, and
> I've never found them unpleasant, or indeed any other emotion-response
> other than well, they at least stand out at junctions instead of
> merging into the incredibly bright background of the car with its
> headlights immediately behind.

If you're on a nice street-lit road with lots of ambient light from car
headlights, then they're not really a problem. When you're on a pitch
black cycle path with absolutely no lighting, they're a pain in the
arse. As Danny said earlier, your eyes can't adjust to the constantly
changing light levels, and it can actually be quite hard to focus on it
and thereby work out exactly where the light is.

Also, I don't suffer from epilepsy, but I do get ophthalmic migraine
occasionally. One of the triggers under certain conditions is bright
flashes of light...

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

[A Muzi]

>>> nmp <address@is.invalid> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> The purpose of bicycle lights is not to actively attract attention (and/
>>>> or confusion, distraction, irritation, etc.) The purpose of bicycle
>>>> lights is to make the bicycle *visible* in conditions where it would
>>>> otherwise not be seen.
>>>> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>>>> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>>>> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>>>> police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.

>> Ben C wrote:
>>> Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
>>> rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
>>> consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
>>> for the duration of each blink's off-phase.
>>> I think they've changed the law here and they aren't illegal any more.

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Hmm that's a novel analysis.
>> My Japanese sources say red flashers are reserved for emergency
>> vehicles, hence no bike flashers there. A quick reading of US statutes
>> might make that a grey area here, too. In practice, cops seem to find
>> other activities to fill a shift besides writing cyclists for the
>> 'wrong' kind of bike light.

Pikachu wrote:
> Seeing that a lot of cars sold in the US have red (vs. amber) turn
> signals that also act as hazard lights as required, I doubt that there
> are specific laws against red blinkers or flashers.

WIS Statutes 347.07:
... no person shall operate any vehicle or equipment...(a) any color of
light visible from the front except white or amber (b) any color of
light other than red in the rear, or (c) any flashing light

as I said, a grey area. The first 'blinkies' were developed for bicycles
by Alex Pong somewhere around 1990 and statutes have a necessary lag
time behind technology.

I believe, even if they are specifically illegal, your average cop has
other more pressing issues than writing cyclists for the 'wrong' kind of
light. For example the bulk of cyclists here have no lights whatsoever.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Scott Gordo]

On Oct 30, 9:21 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> White writes a coherent DiNotte at http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/dinotte.asp

....shown installed on an Airborne? I'm rather surprised.

/s

[datakoll]

well, i'll try one pursuing the idea more is less, entertaining,
eyecatching - a backpack attachment.

when is a blinkie a strobe?

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1&partNumber=91110&memberId=12500226

answer: when it costs les than $30

btw - WILDLY flashing is not the idea. The design idea is 'nervous
consummation' where stimuli are applied to the nervous system bringing
the system into a max state of nervousness. or consciousness.
PULSED is the strobe idea

[Scott Gordo]

On Oct 30, 10:03 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> well, i'll try one pursuing the idea more is less, entertaining,
> eyecatching - a backpack attachment.
>
> when is a blinkie a strobe?
>
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?store...
>
> answer: when it costs les than $30
>
> btw - WILDLY flashing is not the idea. The design idea is 'nervous
> consummation' where stimuli are applied to the nervous system bringing
> the system into a max state of nervousness. or consciousness.
> PULSED is the strobe idea

Okay...well, just to throw my $.02 in, I live and ride in NYC, where
there are just too many lights for someone to notice a non-blinking
little red light. I'm not saying that I'm competing with Lazer Floyd
or anything, but I think it's quaint to think that my Knog blinkie
would be unlawful.

/s

[Larry]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:47:13 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

WIS Statutes 347.07:
>.. no person shall operate any vehicle or equipment...(a) any color of
>light visible from the front except white or amber (b) any color of
>light other than red in the rear, or (c) any flashing light
>

That's interesting... How severe was the snippage? This would make
common turn signals illegal (flashing light) and the common amber turn
signal doubly so (flashing and not red in the rear).
--

When trying to contact me, be polite. Rudeness will not get you anywhere.

Larry

[A Muzi]

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> WIS Statutes 347.07:
>> .. no person shall operate any vehicle or equipment...(a) any color of
>> light visible from the front except white or amber (b) any color of
>> light other than red in the rear, or (c) any flashing light

Larry wrote:
> That's interesting... How severe was the snippage? This would make
> common turn signals illegal (flashing light) and the common amber turn
> signal doubly so (flashing and not red in the rear).


Take a peek:
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0347.pdf

Most US state statutes are similar

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Gary Young]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:36:13 -0600, A Muzi wrote:

>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> WIS Statutes 347.07:
>>> .. no person shall operate any vehicle or equipment...(a) any color of
>>> light visible from the front except white or amber (b) any color of
>>> light other than red in the rear, or (c) any flashing light
>
> Larry wrote:
>> That's interesting... How severe was the snippage? This would make
>> common turn signals illegal (flashing light) and the common amber turn
>> signal doubly so (flashing and not red in the rear).
>
>
> Take a peek:
> http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0347.pdf
>
> Most US state statutes are similar
>

Section 347.489, which deals specifically with bicycle lighting,
contradicts the general rule:

"A lamp emitting a red or flashing amber light visible from a distance of 500 feet
to the rear may be used in addition to but not in lieu of the red
reflector."

In a case like this, a court would probably say that the specific rule
trumps the general rule when it comes to bicycles and thus allow a rear
flashing amber light. Or maybe not.

[datakoll]

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39175179&memberId=12500226

[David Lloyd]

On 31 Oct, 19:16, "Yannik" <geen.ad...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> With the clear lens positioned to the front of the bike your eyes will have
> difficulties due to the extremes between the on and of moments.

> Yannik

This is why flashing lights for use on the front of the bike have a
maximum brightness specification, and should not be used on their own
in the dark. If the xenon strobe has a body mounting option, and is
still waterproof without the red cover, I would attach it to your back
for use as a supplementary beacon.

David Lloyd

[datakoll]

> David Lloyd

I use photon or nashbar blinkie (s) in amber, 1/2x1" front and side.
the NOTICE factor is so high, people comment on the lights as I ride
thru.
the fronts seperate the bike from a porch light.

[_]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 01:54:33 -0800, David Lloyd wrote:

> This is why flashing lights for use on the front of the bike have a
> maximum brightness specification,

This is perhaps true where you ride, but not everywhere. Can you post a
link to this specification please.

[Martin Dann]

David Lloyd wrote:

> This is why flashing lights for use on the front of the bike have a
> maximum brightness specification, and should not be used on their own
> in the dark. If the xenon strobe has a body mounting option, and is
> still waterproof without the red cover, I would attach it to your back
> for use as a supplementary beacon.

AIUI in the UK flashing lights for both the front and rear have a
minimum brightness of 4 candela. There is no maximum.