650B - expanding tire selection?

[Michael Baldwin]

...any buzz out here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
tires?...

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

[bfd]

"Michael Baldwin" <MLB5611@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29307-473E6921-80@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net...
> ..any buzz out here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
> tires?...
>
Always! Kirk Pacenti, framebuilder and lug designer (bikelugs.com), is the
big push behind the mtb "27.5" movement as he has developed with Panacer to
come out with a 650B (584mm) mtb tire called the Neo-Moto. Kirk has gotten
Velocity and Sun to build 27.5/650b mtb rims and is calling all 650B lovers
to email mfrs like Soma, Sun, Surly and others to join in. Kirk thinks that
with the 29er and single speed mtb movement, people are more open to a size
like 650B and mostly will to succeed.

On the road side, Jan Heine of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly and big French bike
advocate is leading the way with his Grand Bois tires made by, who else,
Panaracer. Jan says his 650Bx32 Grand Bois have arguably one of the lowest
rolling resistance he has tested and has recently come out with a 650x42
Hectre tire with Red tread. I believe he is working with Mitsuboshi and
Panaracer to come out with another "Trimline" type tire in 650x38. Look for
more soon!

For more on Jan Heine's 650B tire, go here:
http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/tireoffer.html

Needless to say, Jan is in the business of selling tires. Still, he believes
his 650B tires are "as fast," if not faster than any 700c tire on the market
(other than his 700x30 Grand Bois). Of course, most "racing" bikes today
can barely fit anything fatter than 700x25....

[Chalo]

Michael Baldwin wrote:
>
> ..any buzz out here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
> tires?...

With all due respect... who cares?

I'm holding out for 700J (ISO 608) road tires and 26.7" (ISO 565) MTB
tires. Everything else is way too big or way too small. A wheel size
nobody has ever heard of, that requires custom-made rims and tires, is
_just right_.

Chalo

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 17, 1:06 am, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Michael Baldwin" <MLB5...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>
> news:29307-473E6921-80@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net...> ..any buzz out here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
> > tires?...
>
> Always! Kirk Pacenti, framebuilder and lug designer (bikelugs.com), is the
> big push behind the mtb "27.5" movement as he has developed with Panacer to
> come out with a 650B (584mm) mtb tire called the Neo-Moto. Kirk has gotten
> Velocity and Sun to build 27.5/650b mtb rims and is calling all 650B lovers
> to email mfrs like Soma, Sun, Surly and others to join in. Kirk thinks that
> with the 29er and single speed mtb movement, people are more open to a size
> like 650B and mostly will to succeed.
>
> On the road side, Jan Heine of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly and big French bike
> advocate is leading the way with his Grand Bois tires made by, who else,
> Panaracer. Jan says his 650Bx32 Grand Bois have arguably one of the lowest
> rolling resistance he has tested and has recently come out with a 650x42
> Hectre tire with Red tread. I believe he is working with Mitsuboshi and
> Panaracer to come out with another "Trimline" type tire in 650x38. Look for
> more soon!
>
> For more on Jan Heine's 650B tire, go here:http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/tireoffer.html
>
> Needless to say, Jan is in the business of selling tires. Still, he believes
> his 650B tires are "as fast," if not faster than any 700c tire on the market
> (other than his 700x30 Grand Bois). Of course, most "racing" bikes today
> can barely fit anything fatter than 700x25....

Geez! This reads like a second rate press release. Are Pacenti, Heine,
Petersen et al paying you for your services as a flack?

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 17, 2:16 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
>
> > ..any buzz out here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
> > tires?...
>
> With all due respect... who cares?
>
> I'm holding out for 700J (ISO 608) road tires and 26.7" (ISO 565) MTB
> tires. Everything else is way too big or way too small. A wheel size
> nobody has ever heard of, that requires custom-made rims and tires, is
> _just right_.
>
> Chalo

Grant Petersen is gonna put coal in your Christmas stocking, Chalo!

[Tom Sherman]

Chalo Colina wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
>> ..any buzz out here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
>> tires?...
>
> With all due respect... who cares?
>
> I'm holding out for 700J (ISO 608) road tires and 26.7" (ISO 565) MTB
> tires. Everything else is way too big or way too small. A wheel size
> nobody has ever heard of, that requires custom-made rims and tires, is
> _just right_.

You think you have problems?

I am waiting for a folder with ISO 352-mm tires - the ISO 349-mm tires
on the Brompton are too small, while the ISO 355-mm tires on the Birdy
are too large.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

[bfd]

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:e6a8fd87-af0d-4773-b8af-e4382cd89795@b36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 17, 1:06 am, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Michael Baldwin" <MLB5...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:29307-473E6921-80@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net...> ..any buzz out
>> here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
>> > tires?...
>>
>> Always! Kirk Pacenti, framebuilder and lug designer (bikelugs.com), is
>> the
>> big push behind the mtb "27.5" movement as he has developed with Panacer
>> to
>> come out with a 650B (584mm) mtb tire called the Neo-Moto. Kirk has
>> gotten
>> Velocity and Sun to build 27.5/650b mtb rims and is calling all 650B
>> lovers
>> to email mfrs like Soma, Sun, Surly and others to join in. Kirk thinks
>> that
>> with the 29er and single speed mtb movement, people are more open to a
>> size
>> like 650B and mostly will to succeed.
>>
>> On the road side, Jan Heine of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly and big French
>> bike
>> advocate is leading the way with his Grand Bois tires made by, who else,
>> Panaracer. Jan says his 650Bx32 Grand Bois have arguably one of the
>> lowest
>> rolling resistance he has tested and has recently come out with a 650x42
>> Hectre tire with Red tread. I believe he is working with Mitsuboshi and
>> Panaracer to come out with another "Trimline" type tire in 650x38. Look
>> for
>> more soon!
>>
>> For more on Jan Heine's 650B tire, go
>> here:http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/tireoffer.html
>>
>> Needless to say, Jan is in the business of selling tires. Still, he
>> believes
>> his 650B tires are "as fast," if not faster than any 700c tire on the
>> market
>> (other than his 700x30 Grand Bois). Of course, most "racing" bikes today
>> can barely fit anything fatter than 700x25....
>
> Geez! This reads like a second rate press release. Are Pacenti, Heine,
> Petersen et al paying you for your services as a flack?

No, but the guy did ask about the "latest news" in 650B tires. Hey, if
Pacenti et al want to push 650B, what's the harm?! Btw, I've heard that
Kirk is asking all 650B lovers to email the mfrs to rally support for
all-things 650B. The problem is without a biggie actually getting involved,
i.e., Trek, Specialized, C'dale, etc., I doubt they have a chance. Remember,
one impediment to the biggies getting involved in 650B is the lack of
enthusiasum (sp?) in the dealership network. Shops are just against having
to introduce "yet another size tire" and trying to educate both its
employees and the general public.

But for those who thing 650B is the "bee's knee," why not?

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 17, 10:23 am, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:e6a8fd87-af0d-4773-b8af-e4382cd89795@b36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 1:06 am, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> "Michael Baldwin" <MLB5...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:29307-473E6921-80@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net...> ..any buzz out
> >> here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
> >> > tires?...
>
> >> Always! Kirk Pacenti, framebuilder and lug designer (bikelugs.com), is
> >> the
> >> big push behind the mtb "27.5" movement as he has developed with Panacer
> >> to
> >> come out with a 650B (584mm) mtb tire called the Neo-Moto. Kirk has
> >> gotten
> >> Velocity and Sun to build 27.5/650b mtb rims and is calling all 650B
> >> lovers
> >> to email mfrs like Soma, Sun, Surly and others to join in. Kirk thinks
> >> that
> >> with the 29er and single speed mtb movement, people are more open to a
> >> size
> >> like 650B and mostly will to succeed.
>
> >> On the road side, Jan Heine of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly and big French
> >> bike
> >> advocate is leading the way with his Grand Bois tires made by, who else,
> >> Panaracer. Jan says his 650Bx32 Grand Bois have arguably one of the
> >> lowest
> >> rolling resistance he has tested and has recently come out with a 650x42
> >> Hectre tire with Red tread. I believe he is working with Mitsuboshi and
> >> Panaracer to come out with another "Trimline" type tire in 650x38. Look
> >> for
> >> more soon!
>
> >> For more on Jan Heine's 650B tire, go
> >> here:http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/tireoffer.html
>
> >> Needless to say, Jan is in the business of selling tires. Still, he
> >> believes
> >> his 650B tires are "as fast," if not faster than any 700c tire on the
> >> market
> >> (other than his 700x30 Grand Bois). Of course, most "racing" bikes today
> >> can barely fit anything fatter than 700x25....
>
> > Geez! This reads like a second rate press release. Are Pacenti, Heine,
> > Petersen et al paying you for your services as a flack?
>
> No, but the guy did ask about the "latest news" in 650B tires. Hey, if
> Pacenti et al want to push 650B, what's the harm?! Btw, I've heard that
> Kirk is asking all 650B lovers to email the mfrs to rally support for
> all-things 650B. The problem is without a biggie actually getting involved,
> i.e., Trek, Specialized, C'dale, etc., I doubt they have a chance. Remember,
> one impediment to the biggies getting involved in 650B is the lack of
> enthusiasum (sp?) in the dealership network. Shops are just against having
> to introduce "yet another size tire" and trying to educate both its
> employees and the general public.
>
> But for those who thing 650B is the "bee's knee," why not?

Do you yourself use 650B wheels?

[Tim McNamara]

In article <UoqdnZusc-LEiKLanZ2dnUVZ_tajnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> message
> news:e6a8fd87-af0d-4773-b8af-e4382cd89795@b36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com
> ...
> >
> > Geez! This reads like a second rate press release. Are Pacenti,
> > Heine, Petersen et al paying you for your services as a flack?
>
> No, but the guy did ask about the "latest news" in 650B tires. Hey,
> if Pacenti et al want to push 650B, what's the harm?! Btw, I've
> heard that Kirk is asking all 650B lovers to email the mfrs to rally
> support for all-things 650B. The problem is without a biggie actually
> getting involved, i.e., Trek, Specialized, C'dale, etc., I doubt they
> have a chance. Remember, one impediment to the biggies getting
> involved in 650B is the lack of enthusiasum (sp?) in the dealership
> network. Shops are just against having to introduce "yet another
> size tire" and trying to educate both its employees and the general
> public.

"Enthusiasm."

Of course a lot of shops are against it. They've already got to stock
20 sizes of tires, if they are actually a full service shop that will
work on whatever bike you bring in. It's expensive to buy tires that
may sit cluttering up the storage area for years and may never sell.

> But for those who thing 650B is the "bee's knee," why not?

That's what the Internet is for: niche products can find a home there
and flourish. You can already buy at least ten different models of 650B
tires (made by or for Schwalbe, Michelin, Panaracer, Grand Bois,
Rivendell, Pacenti) and three different rims and have them tomorrow if
you want to pay for overnight shipping. I can go to my LBS and buy any
or all of five models of 650B tires and at least two different rims.
Basta!

As you point out, 650B- which BTW is a size that I think is just fine
and has a useful purpose- is not going to have a place in the US bike
shop market until Trek adopts it- at which point everyone else will
follow suit if they sell- and I very much doubt that is going to happen
due to the economics of it.

[Michael Press]

In article
<UoqdnZusc-LEiKLanZ2dnUVZ_tajnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
> news:e6a8fd87-af0d-4773-b8af-e4382cd89795@b36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> > On Nov 17, 1:06 am, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> "Michael Baldwin" <MLB5...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> >>
> >> news:29307-473E6921-80@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net...> ..any buzz out
> >> here/there regarding NEW (to the marketplace) 650B
> >> > tires?...
> >>
> >> Always! Kirk Pacenti, framebuilder and lug designer (bikelugs.com), is
> >> the
> >> big push behind the mtb "27.5" movement as he has developed with Panacer
> >> to
> >> come out with a 650B (584mm) mtb tire called the Neo-Moto. Kirk has
> >> gotten
> >> Velocity and Sun to build 27.5/650b mtb rims and is calling all 650B
> >> lovers
> >> to email mfrs like Soma, Sun, Surly and others to join in. Kirk thinks
> >> that
> >> with the 29er and single speed mtb movement, people are more open to a
> >> size
> >> like 650B and mostly will to succeed.
> >>
> >> On the road side, Jan Heine of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly and big French
> >> bike
> >> advocate is leading the way with his Grand Bois tires made by, who else,
> >> Panaracer. Jan says his 650Bx32 Grand Bois have arguably one of the
> >> lowest
> >> rolling resistance he has tested and has recently come out with a 650x42
> >> Hectre tire with Red tread. I believe he is working with Mitsuboshi and
> >> Panaracer to come out with another "Trimline" type tire in 650x38. Look
> >> for
> >> more soon!
> >>
> >> For more on Jan Heine's 650B tire, go
> >> here:http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/tireoffer.html
> >>
> >> Needless to say, Jan is in the business of selling tires. Still, he
> >> believes
> >> his 650B tires are "as fast," if not faster than any 700c tire on the
> >> market
> >> (other than his 700x30 Grand Bois). Of course, most "racing" bikes today
> >> can barely fit anything fatter than 700x25....
> >
> > Geez! This reads like a second rate press release. Are Pacenti, Heine,
> > Petersen et al paying you for your services as a flack?
>
> No, but the guy did ask about the "latest news" in 650B tires. Hey, if
> Pacenti et al want to push 650B, what's the harm?! Btw, I've heard that
> Kirk is asking all 650B lovers to email the mfrs to rally support for
> all-things 650B. The problem is without a biggie actually getting involved,
> i.e., Trek, Specialized, C'dale, etc., I doubt they have a chance. Remember,
> one impediment to the biggies getting involved in 650B is the lack of
> enthusiasum (sp?) in the dealership network. Shops are just against having
> to introduce "yet another size tire" and trying to educate both its
> employees and the general public.
>
> But for those who thing 650B is the "bee's knee," why not?

In a region where ISO 584 tires are widely used they make
good wheels. In a region where 559 and 622 are widely used
584 tires are unnecessary. If 584 tires become widely used
choices in other sizes diminish and all tires become more
expensive by the cost of designing, manufacturing, stocking,
distributing, and stocking 584 tires.

--
Michael Press

[bfd]

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-7323B1.11195517112007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net ...
> In a region where ISO 584 tires are widely used they make
> good wheels. In a region where 559 and 622 are widely used
> 584 tires are unnecessary. If 584 tires become widely used
> choices in other sizes diminish and all tires become more
> expensive by the cost of designing, manufacturing, stocking,
> distributing, and stocking 584 tires.
>
OK, here are several possible uses for 650B/584mm tires that have yet to be
mentioned. First, if you ride a small to medium size frame (up to about
56cm), then 650B may allow a fatter tire and fender clearance that 700c does
not. Second, 650B at 584mm is larger than the current 26" (559mm) mtb tire
size. IF you believe, like the 29er folks, that a large diameter wheel
"rolls better," than 650B should do just that. Finally, 650B may be the
answer for those who have older "racing" bikes that have little or no
clearance for anything larger than 700x23 or even 25 tires. 650B wheels may
allow fatter tires and fenders on these "racing" bikes and thus, make them
more useful.

I do agree that there are expenses associated with stocking "yet another
size" tire is something that most LBS can do without. Like others have said
if Trek, Specialized and C'dale adopt the size, then, and only then will
650B be a viable size. If not, look at it as a "boutique" wheel size similar
to the fancy, dancy boutique wheels available today for most racing bikes.

I also agree that people like Grant P/Riv, Jan Heine and Kirk Pacenti are
profiting of pushing this boutique size, but hey, if they can make money on
it, what's not to like?!

[Michael Press]

In article
<msGdnVCd1tWa3qLanZ2dnUVZ_r6rnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-7323B1.11195517112007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net ...
> > In a region where ISO 584 tires are widely used they make
> > good wheels. In a region where 559 and 622 are widely used
> > 584 tires are unnecessary. If 584 tires become widely used
> > choices in other sizes diminish and all tires become more
> > expensive by the cost of designing, manufacturing, stocking,
> > distributing, and stocking 584 tires.
> >
> OK, here are several possible uses for 650B/584mm tires that have yet to be
> mentioned. First, if you ride a small to medium size frame (up to about
> 56cm), then 650B may allow a fatter tire and fender clearance that 700c does
> not. Second, 650B at 584mm is larger than the current 26" (559mm) mtb tire
> size. IF you believe, like the 29er folks, that a large diameter wheel
> "rolls better," than 650B should do just that. Finally, 650B may be the
> answer for those who have older "racing" bikes that have little or no
> clearance for anything larger than 700x23 or even 25 tires. 650B wheels may
> allow fatter tires and fenders on these "racing" bikes and thus, make them
> more useful.
>
> I do agree that there are expenses associated with stocking "yet another
> size" tire is something that most LBS can do without. Like others have said
> if Trek, Specialized and C'dale adopt the size, then, and only then will
> 650B be a viable size. If not, look at it as a "boutique" wheel size similar
> to the fancy, dancy boutique wheels available today for most racing bikes.
>
> I also agree that people like Grant P/Riv, Jan Heine and Kirk Pacenti are
> profiting of pushing this boutique size, but hey, if they can make money on
> it, what's not to like?!

If you cannot ride 622, ride 559. 584 is unnecessary in a region
where 559 is widely available. In a region where 622 and 559 are
available, building frames specifically for 584 is madness.
584 is just a size, and not needed where 559 and 622 are standard.
Call it 650B and talk about how all the French ride it,
and you have a great advertising campaign.

And if you do not like 622 in your frame, and 584 can be made to
work without changing your brakes for some that fit and you want
to go to the trouble of tracking down 684 rims an tubes and tires,
which apparently is not much trouble, rather than simply getting
a 559 bicycle _made_ for fat tires, well, go ahead, but do not
try to talk manufacturers and others into supporting a size that
has a radius 1/2 inch _larger_ than mountain bike tires and
1/2 inch _smaller_ than road bike tires, because you will never
convince anybody that that in between size conveys and advantage.

--
Michael Press

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 17, 1:38 pm, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>
> news:rubrum-7323B1.11195517112007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net ...> In a region where ISO 584 tires are widely used they make
> > good wheels. In a region where 559 and 622 are widely used
> > 584 tires are unnecessary. If 584 tires become widely used
> > choices in other sizes diminish and all tires become more
> > expensive by the cost of designing, manufacturing, stocking,
> > distributing, and stocking 584 tires.
>
> OK, here are several possible uses for 650B/584mm tires that have yet to be
> mentioned. First, if you ride a small to medium size frame (up to about
> 56cm), then 650B may allow a fatter tire and fender clearance that 700c does
> not.

In such a case, why not use the widely available 559 wheel size? What
advantage does 584 ("650B) convey that justifies the much narrower
selection of wheels and tires along with the higher prices?

> Second, 650B at 584mm is larger than the current 26" (559mm) mtb tire
> size. IF you believe, like the 29er folks, that a large diameter wheel
> "rolls better," than 650B should do just that.

A classic case of a solution in search of a problem.


> Finally, 650B may be the
> answer for those who have older "racing" bikes that have little or no
> clearance for anything larger than 700x23 or even 25 tires. 650B wheels may
> allow fatter tires and fenders on these "racing" bikes and thus, make them
> more useful.

Such conversions are *very* small in number, a number that will not
support the long term availability of 559 wheels and tires. IOW, such
a conversion is a long walk off a short pier.
>
> I do agree that there are expenses associated with stocking "yet another
> size" tire is something that most LBS can do without. Like others have said
> if Trek, Specialized and C'dale adopt the size, then, and only then will
> 650B be a viable size. If not, look at it as a "boutique" wheel size similar
> to the fancy, dancy boutique wheels available today for most racing bikes.
>
> I also agree that people like Grant P/Riv, Jan Heine and Kirk Pacenti are
> profiting of pushing this boutique size, but hey, if they can make money on
> it, what's not to like?!

What's not to like? How about pushing a product at the expense of the
long term well being of their customers? Seems kinda short sighted.

[bfd]

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-1C6D5F.12143817112007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net ...

>
> And if you do not like 622 in your frame, and 584 can be made to
> work without changing your brakes for some that fit and you want
> to go to the trouble of tracking down 684 rims an tubes and tires,
> which apparently is not much trouble, rather than simply getting
> a 559 bicycle _made_ for fat tires, well, go ahead, but do not
> try to talk manufacturers and others into supporting a size that
> has a radius 1/2 inch _larger_ than mountain bike tires and
> 1/2 inch _smaller_ than road bike tires, because you will never
> convince anybody that that in between size conveys and advantage.
>
Talk to Kirk Pacenti, he's pushing the campaign to email each and every mfr
to get them to move to 650B. An example is his push to get Sun/Ringle,
through their blog, to build 650B rims. Notice that Grant P/Rivendell has
responded:

http://tinyurl.com/2s7e6wIf ya all are so against 650B, then maybe you need
to respond accordingly!

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 17, 3:46 pm, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>
> news:rubrum-1C6D5F.12143817112007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net ...
>
>
>
> > And if you do not like 622 in your frame, and 584 can be made to
> > work without changing your brakes for some that fit and you want
> > to go to the trouble of tracking down 684 rims an tubes and tires,
> > which apparently is not much trouble, rather than simply getting
> > a 559 bicycle _made_ for fat tires, well, go ahead, but do not
> > try to talk manufacturers and others into supporting a size that
> > has a radius 1/2 inch _larger_ than mountain bike tires and
> > 1/2 inch _smaller_ than road bike tires, because you will never
> > convince anybody that that in between size conveys and advantage.
>
> Talk to Kirk Pacenti, he's pushing the campaign to email each and every mfr
> to get them to move to 650B. An example is his push to get Sun/Ringle,
> through their blog, to build 650B rims. Notice that Grant P/Rivendell has
> responded:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2s7e6wIfya all are so against 650B, then maybe you need
> to respond accordingly!

Why bother? Good business instincts and common sense will prevail. The
650B fad will blow over and, sadly, quite a few naive, trusting and
credulous buyers will be left in the lurch. And gRant will move on to
the Next Thing.