650Beware?

[Michael Baldwin]

...there's definitely some phobia attached to tire/rim/wheel sizing,
regardless the vehicle...30 years ago HONDA introduced the 23" front
wheel...YIKES! More recently, some tuners experimented with 19" front
wheels on SuperCross motorcycles...Double YIKES!...many of today's
pick-up trucks and cars are available with 3 rim/wheel sizes...Triple
YIKES! ...and then enter the lowly 650B...WOW!

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 7:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> >><bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >>>On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> >>>in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>
> >>That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
> >>dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
> >>profitable!
>
> > Yep, "niche marketing" works. Pity about all those customers who will
> > be left in the lurch when the 650B fad blows over, eh? Of course, by
> > then The Grant will have moved on to the Next Thing.
>
> You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?
>

How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
*absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
559/26" and 622/700C?

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> >>You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?
>
> > How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
> > demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
> > through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
> > *absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
> > 559/26" and 622/700C?
>
> If there are no advantages to 650B as compared to both 559 and 700C,
> then based on your logic 559 and 700C confer no advantage over 650B.

Other than being widely and easily available and well priced due to
competition in the marketplace.


> Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
> people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?

Why don't you tell me?


>
> It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
> two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
> person.
>

"Replace two bikes with one"?

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 18, 9:08 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> >>>On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?
>
> >>>How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
> >>>demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
> >>>through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
> >>>*absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
> >>>559/26" and 622/700C?
>
> >>If there are no advantages to 650B as compared to both 559 and 700C,
> >>then based on your logic 559 and 700C confer no advantage over 650B.
>
> > Other than being widely and easily available and well priced due to
> > competition in the marketplace.
>
> >>Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
> >>people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?
>
> > Why don't you tell me?
>
> Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.

That ain't necessarily so. You need to get out more.

>
>
>
> >>It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
> >>two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
> >>person.
>
> > "Replace two bikes with one"?
>
> 650B is between 559 and 700C in diameter. You claim that 650B offers no
> advantages over either. Obviously some people do.
>

Do you? If so, please do list them!

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Nov 18, 10:08 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> >>>On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
> >>people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?
>
> > Why don't you tell me?
>
> Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.

I don't think Ozark's playing, Wayne. ;-)

> >>It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
> >>two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
> >>person.
>
> > "Replace two bikes with one"?
>
> 650B is between 559 and 700C in diameter. You claim that 650B offers no
> advantages over either. Obviously some people do.

The one advantage of 650B that makes sense to me is this: In the last
10 years, it's been very difficult to find 700c bikes with sufficient
clearance for fenders and tires wider than 28mm. I've battled that
problem when helping others try to make their "good bikes" more
useful.

650B offers a possible solution. Changing to that rim & tire size
allows more clearance. Yes, building wheels (and probably changing
brakes) isn't cheap. But it's probably cheaper than changing the
entire bike.

BTW, the first I heard of 650B was back in, oh, 1974 or so. Fred
DeLong recommended that as the optimum wheel size for touring
tandems.

Now, Fred DeLong was generally known as a) extremely knowledgeable
about bike technology b) not connected in any way with bike
marketing. He wasn't making such a recommendation to delude the poor
people reading his writing. He was making the recommendation because
he thought it made sense. And he clearly wasn't worried about 650B
vanishing from the world.

Of course, it may be that discount bike mechanics also rail against
Fred DeLong just like they do against Grant Peterson, Jobst Brandt,
and anyone else who makes them feel inferior.

- Frank Krygowski

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 19, 11:14 am, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 9:08 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> >>>On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> >>>>>On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?
>
> >>>>>How 'bout when sources like QBP stop stocking them due to lack of
> >>>>>demand? How 'bout the poor customer having to special order and pay
> >>>>>through the snout for a pair of tires (or worse, rims) which confer
> >>>>>*absolutely no advantage* over the commonly available standards like
> >>>>>559/26" and 622/700C?
>
> >>>>If there are no advantages to 650B as compared to both 559 and 700C,
> >>>>then based on your logic 559 and 700C confer no advantage over 650B.
>
> >>>Other than being widely and easily available and well priced due to
> >>>competition in the marketplace.
>
> >>>>Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
> >>>>people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?
>
> >>>Why don't you tell me?
>
> >>Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.
>
> > That ain't necessarily so. You need to get out more.
>
> You need to bite me.
>

From a mind that defends 650B........ ;-)

[Hank Wirtz]

On Nov 18, 10:42 am, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 7:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> >><bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >>>On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> >>>in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>
> >>That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
> >>dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
> >>profitable!
>
> > Yep, "niche marketing" works. Pity about all those customers who will
> > be left in the lurch when the 650B fad blows over, eh? Of course, by
> > then The Grant will have moved on to the Next Thing.
>
> You mean when the manufacturers stop making 650B tires?
>
> Wayne

From what I understand, the 650B frames have clearances such that one
could install shorter reach brakes and use 700c wheels with narrower
tires than 650B allows. The outer diameter of a 23-622 tire is the
same as a 42-584, so geometry would be unaffected.

I doubt anybody would be left with an unrideable frame.

[still just me]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:51:55 -0500, MLB5611@webtv.net (Michael
Baldwin) wrote:

>many of today's
>pick-up trucks and cars are available with 3 rim/wheel sizes...Triple
>YIKES! ...and then enter the lowly 650B...WOW!

Ah... the difference being that there are significant advantages to
some changes in auto/truck wheel sizes with corresponding adjustments
to tire profiles depending on the application.

It's also worth noting that people who run at the extremes suffer from
a significantly smaller number of choices. Most of these people are
making changes for appearance, although a small minority are into
serious performance sports.

Now, explain to me what 650B does to improve my bicycle performance.

[Michael Baldwin]

...there's definitely some phobia attached to tire/rim/wheel sizing,
regardless the vehicle...and then there's lowly 650B!

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:51:55 -0500, MLB5...@webtv.net (Michael
>
> Baldwin) wrote:
> >many of today's
> >pick-up trucks and cars are available with 3 rim/wheel sizes...Triple
> >YIKES! ...and then enter the lowly 650B...WOW!
>
> Ah... the difference being that there are significant advantages to
> some changes in auto/truck wheel sizes with corresponding adjustments
> to tire profiles depending on the application.
>
> It's also worth noting that people who run at the extremes suffer from
> a significantly smaller number of choices. Most of these people are
> making changes for appearance, although a small minority are into
> serious performance sports.
>
> Now, explain to me what 650B does to improve my bicycle performance.

In ~98% of cases, nada/zip/zilch/zero. With potentially serious
downsides.

OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!

[philcycles]

still just me wrote:

> It's also worth noting that people who run at the extremes suffer from
> a significantly smaller number of choices. Most of these people are
> making changes for appearance, although a small minority are into
> serious performance sports.
>
> Now, explain to me what 650B does to improve my bicycle performance.

Probably nothing. But it may increase your enjoyment, which may or may
not be a consideration for you.
Phil Brown

[bfd]

On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>
That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
profitable!

IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
Bombadil - a 650B mtb!

What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
block to be "put to sleep" next.

[Hank Wirtz]

On Nov 17, 5:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> > in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>
> That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
> dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
> profitable!
>
> IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
> made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
> mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
> Bombadil - a 650B mtb!
>
> What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
> 700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
> custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
> size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
> block to be "put to sleep" next.

The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.

And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 17, 7:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> > in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>
> That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
> dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
> profitable!

Yep, "niche marketing" works. Pity about all those customers who will
be left in the lurch when the 650B fad blows over, eh? Of course, by
then The Grant will have moved on to the Next Thing.

>
> IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
> made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
> mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
> Bombadil - a 650B mtb!
>
> What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
> 700c Rambo.

Sure, because the pipe line is filled and sales on those models have
slowed to a trickle. Time for "something new" to flog to the faithful!
Rivensell survives by selling multiple bikes to the same small
customer base. The switch from 700c and 26" to 650B has allowed Riv to
sell essentially the same bike all over again to the same customers
(who think they are getting "something new").


> About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
> custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
> size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
> block to be "put to sleep" next.

You are forgetting the Homer Hilsen, which is really just a re-warmed
Rambo.

[bfd]

"Hank Wirtz" <hank@wirtznet.net> wrote in message
news:a733b7e9-71a3-42a7-9919-7903ba688e7f@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 17, 5:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
>>
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> > On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
>> > in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>>
>> That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
>> dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
>> profitable!
>>
>> IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
>> made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
>> mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
>> Bombadil - a 650B mtb!
>>
>> What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
>> 700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
>> custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
>> size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
>> block to be "put to sleep" next.
>
> The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
> attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
> Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
> that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.
>
> And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.

Yes, the AHH is a 700c bike, but its only comes in large sizes like 57 or
58cm. If you need something smaller, then Riv prefers you get on a 650B
bike. I can see Grant making the Atlantis a 650B bike, why not! That way
he only has to stock 650B tires and rims. Simplifying inventory always seems
to work....

[Michael Press]

In article
<a733b7e9-71a3-42a7-9919-7903ba688e7f@s19g2000prg.googl
egroups.com>,
Hank Wirtz <hank@wirtznet.net> wrote:

> On Nov 17, 5:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
> >
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> > > in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
> >
> > That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
> > dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
> > profitable!
> >
> > IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
> > made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
> > mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
> > Bombadil - a 650B mtb!
> >
> > What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
> > 700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
> > custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
> > size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
> > block to be "put to sleep" next.
>
> The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
> attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
> Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
> that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.
>
> And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.

No 622 wheels on AHH smaller than 57 cm seat tube.

"it is impossible to properly design a 700C wheel bike
with these clearances (for fat tires and fenders) below about 57cm."

Here endeth the first lesson.

NB: A 54 cm Raleigh International with 630 wheels, 32 mm tires,
and room for mud guards does not falsify the lesson.

--
Michael Press

[Hank Wirtz]

On Nov 17, 9:19 pm, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Hank Wirtz" <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote in message
>
> news:a733b7e9-71a3-42a7-9919-7903ba688e7f@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 5:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> > On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> >> > in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>
> >> That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
> >> dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
> >> profitable!
>
> >> IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
> >> made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
> >> mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
> >> Bombadil - a 650B mtb!
>
> >> What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
> >> 700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
> >> custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
> >> size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
> >> block to be "put to sleep" next.
>
> > The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
> > attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
> > Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
> > that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.
>
> > And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.
>
> Yes, the AHH is a 700c bike, but its only comes in large sizes like 57 or
> 58cm.

You say that as if that disqualifies its existence...

> If you need something smaller, then Riv prefers you get on a 650B
> bike. I can see Grant making the Atlantis a 650B bike, why not!

Because it's their "Expedition-level" touring bike. tire and rim
availability is an issue for tourists, and ONLY offering 650B would be
seriously dumb. There are people in the Surly LHT owners group who
argue that 700c has too little availability to be good for loaded
touring. They argue that since you can get 559 tires at Wal-Mart and
in Timbuktu, that's the size you want.

> That way
> he only has to stock 650B tires and rims. Simplifying inventory always seems
> to work....

And that's your argument for INTRODUCING an arcane size? Do you
actually believe what you're saying?

[philcycles]

Hank Wirtz wrote:

> And that's your argument for INTRODUCING an arcane size? Do you
> actually believe what you're saying?

It's not actually introducing an arcane-not really that arcane-size
but making it available in the US. The French used it for many years
as their main size for wired on tires and only recently has it been
superceded by the 559 wheel. And in the mid 80s Raleigh sold a 650B
touring bike-the Portage of saintred memory-so it's not as out of the
mainstream as might be imagined. And today with the net and overnight
delivery oddball stuff suddenly becomes viable again. No longer are
you dependent on your LBS to carry 650B or order irt from Mel Pinto or
someone else. Call up Riv, give 'em your credit card and if you do it
before 5pm you can have it next morning. Might even make it possible
to tour on them here on the good old USA. So let's all lighten up.
Phil Brown

[CHenry]

On Nov 18 2007, 12:30 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> On Nov 17, 9:19 pm, "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Hank Wirtz" <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:a733b7e9-71a3-42a7-9919-7903ba688e7f@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Nov 17, 5:44 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> On Nov 17, 8:33 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >> > On Nov 17, 9:26 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > OTOH, Rivendell has reported that flogging 650B has proven effective
> > >> > in boosting sales and raising the good 'ol Bottom Line!
>
> > >> That's right. Since about 2003/04, when Grant P/Riv decided to
> > >> dedicate their lineup to 650B, the company has actually been
> > >> profitable!
>
> > >> IF you look at Riv's current lineup of "production" bikes, i.e., those
> > >> made in Japan or Taiwan, its mostly 650B. There's the Glorius/Wilbury
> > >> mixte - 650B, Saluki - 650B, Bleriot - 650B and the arriving soon,
> > >> Bombadil - a 650B mtb!
>
> > >> What's "asleep" or in "hiatus" is the 700c Quickbeam, 700c Legolas and
> > >> 700c Rambo. About the only non-650B bike Riv sells, outside of its
> > >> custom, is the Atlantis, which comes in 559 and 700c depending on what
> > >> size is ordered. Of course, there's rumors that the Atlantis is on the
> > >> block to be "put to sleep" next.
>
> > > The rumour as I heard it, is that the Saluki and Atlantis will have
> > > attributes combined into a new bike with the Atlantis name. The
> > > Atlantis is their best seller, so it's not going anywhere. I'd guess
> > > that the Bleriot cannibalized Saluki sales.
>
> > > And as for 700c, they introduced the A. Homer Hilsen this year.
>
> > Yes, the AHH is a 700c bike, but its only comes in large sizes like 57 or
> > 58cm.
>
> You say that as if that disqualifies its existence...
>
> > If you need something smaller, then Riv prefers you get on a 650B
> > bike. I can see Grant making the Atlantis a 650B bike, why not!
>
> Because it's their "Expedition-level" touring bike. tire and rim
> availability is an issue for tourists, and ONLY offering 650B would be
> seriously dumb. There are people in the Surly LHT owners group who
> argue that 700c has too little availability to be good for loaded
> touring. They argue that since you can get 559 tires at Wal-Mart and
> in Timbuktu, that's the size you want.
>
> > That way
> > he only has to stock 650B tires and rims. Simplifying inventory always seems
> > to work....
>
> And that's your argument for INTRODUCING an arcane size? Do you
> actually believe what you're saying?

Not a difficult job to do. I have converted my 56cm Atlantis, sold as
a 559-wheeled bike, to 650B. The fit and ride are very good, better
than as a 26/559 bike. A slight adjustment of the cantilever brake
posts would be all that is necessary (even as-is, the frame I have was
convertible by changing to Tektro cantilevers.)

[still just me]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 22:20:52 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>"it is impossible to properly design a 700C wheel bike
>with these clearances (for fat tires and fenders) below about 57cm."
>
>Here endeth the first lesson.
>
>NB: A 54 cm Raleigh International with 630 wheels, 32 mm tires,
>and room for mud guards does not falsify the lesson.

Aw ****. Excuse me, I have to go toss out some bikes that I used to
think we nice comfortable rides - But I realize now they all suck.

I wouldn't even Ebay to someone, it would be deceptive!

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Nov 18, 8:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> changed a thread title to:

> "Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."

Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
Imagine, taking money from willing customers!

No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
he uses slave labor!

No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
bike mechanic in the same class as Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!

There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 18, 9:56 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 18, 8:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> changed a thread title to:
>
> > "Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."
>
> Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
> class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
> Imagine, taking money from willing customers!
>
> No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
> oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
> and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
> he uses slave labor!
>
> No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
> bike mechanic in the same class as Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!
>
> There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)
>
> - Frank Krygowski......always an *******!

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Nov 18, 9:56 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:

> Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
> class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.

Need to clean your glasses, Frank.

> Imagine, taking money from willing customers!
>
> No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
> oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
> and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
> he uses slave labor!

The criticism of the 650B is obvious. And no one exaggerated it to the
wadded-panties level you're operating at here.

(another Obvious): Time will tell.

I haven't devoted the time, but is "Rivendel" supposed to be some kind
of antipodal to "racerboy"?

Couldn't one contact any number of custom makers and get something
made of any material, including maybe even bamboo, to suit an intended
use? Without the fairytale window dressing, that is?

> No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
> bike mechanic in the same class as Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!

That wasn't the drive of anything I read here. IOW, you're reaching
for a putdown (imagine! Frank Krygowski reaching for a putdown, and
misreading obvious intent!).

Not only that, you're stealing my lines. But missing the (intended)
humor (of course).

> There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)

In your dreams.

Don't you have some students to abuse? --D-y

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Nov 18, 9:56 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Nov 18, 8:30 am, Ozark Bicycle
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> changed a thread title to:
>>
>>> "Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."
>> Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
>> class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
>> Imagine, taking money from willing customers!
>>
>> No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
>> oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
>> and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
>> he uses slave labor!
>>
>> No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
>> bike mechanic in the same class as Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!
>>
>> There. That ought to end the thread. ;-)
>>
- Frank Krygowski......always an *******!
>
Where is the "0% Attitude"?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

[JP]

It's like listening to the grumbling over at the blacksmith's
when that newfangled horseless carriage goes past.
The self proclaimed experts with their nuggets of wisdom
sniggering with self satisfaction while the rest of the world
moves on.

And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers a decent product,
stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In China."

Maybe that is what makes the Bentonville butt-kissers so irate.
It's the exact opposite of everything they do.


JP

[bfd]

"JP" <vze2wx8p@verizon.net> wrote in message news:Nb_%i.2280$7T.1771@trndny09...

<And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers a decent product,
stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In China.">

Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so, then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.

[still just me]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:59:25 GMT, "JP" <vze2wx8p@verizon.net> wrote:

>And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
>a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,

I thought the original mission was a little bit different than where
they've gone in the last few years. Maybe I was mistaken.

Not that I care...but I might occasionally enjoy noting the 650B!

[Tim McNamara]

In article <Nb_%i.2280$7T.1771@trndny09>, "JP" <vze2wx8p@verizon.net>
wrote:

> And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing a
> dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers
> a decent product, stands behind everything it sells, nothing of
> which is "Made In China."

It's always hi-larious watching the anti-Rivendell dudgeon some people
get themselves worked into. It's just a small bike company. They just
sell they stuff they like. All people have to do is not buy it if they
don't agree.

[JP]

"bfd" <bfd853@comcast.net> wrote in message news:pKCdnbrwsJiO7t3anZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com. ..

"JP" <vze2wx8p@verizon.net> wrote in message news:Nb_%i.2280$7T.1771@trndny09...

<And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers a decent product,
stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In China.">

Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so, then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.


Yeah, the Chinese claim it's China and when they reacquire control the label may read "Made in China."
Taiwan sees itself as separate from the mainland. I personally side with the Taiwanese.

[A Muzi]

> "JP" <vze2wx8p@verizon.net <mailto:vze2wx8p@verizon.net>> wrote
> And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
> a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,
> offers a decent product,
> stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In
> China."

bfd wrote:
> Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so,
> then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on
> China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long
> Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.

Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Michael Press]

In article
<e9b39f69-3abc-4d53-9df2-c067a4696438@s8g2000prg.google
groups.com>,
philcycles <philcycles@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hank Wirtz wrote:
>
> > And that's your argument for INTRODUCING an arcane size? Do you
> > actually believe what you're saying?
>
> It's not actually introducing an arcane-not really that arcane-size
> but making it available in the US. The French used it for many years
> as their main size for wired on tires and only recently has it been
> superceded by the 559 wheel. And in the mid 80s Raleigh sold a 650B
> touring bike-the Portage of saintred memory-so it's not as out of the
> mainstream as might be imagined. And today with the net and overnight
> delivery oddball stuff suddenly becomes viable again. No longer are
> you dependent on your LBS to carry 650B or order irt from Mel Pinto or
> someone else. Call up Riv, give 'em your credit card and if you do it
> before 5pm you can have it next morning. Might even make it possible
> to tour on them here on the good old USA. So let's all lighten up.

You did not chime in with "lighten up" in response to the
puff pieces and cheerleading.

ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size.
It predominates in France. It is the norm there.
Here where ISO 622 and 559 are widely available
it is unnecessary. Grant Peterson goes on all day

"it is impossible to properly design a 700C wheel bike
with these clearances (for fat tires and fenders) below about 57cm."

but I am not having it. A great road frame
in almost all sizes can be designed to run
fat 622 tires. And smaller frames with 559.
What is wrong with 559 tires? Answer: nothing.
If you want to build a smaller frame with
fat tires, then 559 is superior to 584.

--
Michael Press

[James Thomson]

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> a écrit:

> ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size.
> It predominates in France. It is the norm
> there.

It really isn't.

There is a large fleet of older utility bikes still running 650B, but *very*
few bikes built in the last twenty years are 650B. 26" (559mm) and 700c are
by far the most common sizes. 650C and 20" (406mm) are easy to find. Many
shops don't stock any 650B tyres, and I haven't seen a single new 650B rim
in the 6 years I've lived here, though I know they're available from
Berthoud and the like.

Last year I renovated an old postman's bike for a friend. After much soul
searching, I filed off the 650B cantilever mounts and had them replaced for
559-26". The selection of tyres and rims is far greater, and (in my
estimation) likely to remain so.

James Thomson
Paris 3e

[still just me]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:02:05 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
>Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
>--

Holding on to that, eh?

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 18, 2:02 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > "JP" <vze2w...@verizon.net <mailto:vze2w...@verizon.net>> wrote
> > And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
> > a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,
> > offers a decent product,
> > stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In
> > China."
> bfd wrote:
> > Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so,
> > then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on
> > China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long
> > Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.
>
> Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
> Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
> --

You are one of the reasons?

[Marian]

On Nov 19, 4:02 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > "JP" <vze2w...@verizon.net <mailto:vze2w...@verizon.net>> wrote
> > And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
> > a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,
> > offers a decent product,
> > stands behind everything it sells, nothing of which is "Made In
> > China."
> bfd wrote:
> > Nothing made in China? Isn't Taiwan considered part of China? If so,
> > then Rivendell's Bleriot, which is made in Taiwan, is "Made on
> > China." Similarly, all of its lugs are "Made in China" too as Long
> > Shen is a Chinese/Taiwanese company.
>
> Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
> Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.

I don't even consider Hong Kong and Macau to be a part of China on the
grounds that any place which requires you to pass through customs and
use a passport to enter, speaks a different language, and uses a
different currency is NOT THE SAME COUNTRY no matter what the
governments of both sides say.

Regarding the whole Taiwan issue ...

At the Tour of Qinghai Lake the organizers refuse to use the flag of
Taiwan or the flag for Chinese Taipei (the official Olympic
designation) when hanging flags of all the countries of the teams
participating so because Giant Asia Racing is based out of Taiwan in
amongst more well known countries like the United States, Portugal,
Japan, Germany, England, Denmark, Russia and the like you also get the
country of Giant Bicycles.

For the Tour of Hainan we didn't go down that road though it was a
regular issue that we had to correct people who had called it Taiwan
in the English (always must be referred to as Chinese Taipei) and that
in the Chinese it was always Zhonghua Taibei instead of Zhongguo
Taibei.

This especially stuck out because I was usually the one who made the
mistake in the English. Sometimes, however, some of the PRC Chinese
people also mistakenly referred to it as Taiwan in English. One
person I know made a gaffe and called them Taiwan on the radio in
Chinese.

It's good that we also had Hong Kong participating because it made it
that much easier to cloud the issue when deciding where to put Chinese
Taipei in the various lists. If you squint you can't really tell
whether we stuck it with the national teams or if we stuck it with the
professional teams.

-M

[A Muzi]

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
>> Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.

still just me wrote:
> Holding on to that, eh?

yep.
Freedom is always the right answer.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Scott Gordo]

On Nov 18, 3:39 pm, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:02:05 -0600, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
> >Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
> >Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
> >--
>
> Holding on to that, eh?

Him and around 23 million Taiwanese.

/s

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 18, 2:41 pm, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:59:25 GMT, "JP" <vze2w...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing
> >a dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement,
>
> I thought the original mission was a little bit different than where
> they've gone in the last few years. Maybe I was mistaken.

No, you're not mistaken. "In the beginning" Grant Petersen railed
against oddball, hard-to-source, non-standard stuff. IOW, stuff like
650B wheels and tires. He made a very strong case for 559/26" due to
their easy availability.

Then, he discovered the "bottom line advantages" of niche marketing,
customer well-being be damned.

Sad.

>
> Not that I care...but I might occasionally enjoy noting the 650B!

[still just me]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:32:37 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>still just me wrote:
>> Holding on to that, eh?
>
>yep.
>Freedom is always the right answer.

Seems to me that capitalism has trumped any concerns about freedom.

[Werehatrack]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:32:37 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
>>> Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
>
>still just me wrote:
>> Holding on to that, eh?
>
>yep.
>Freedom is always the right answer.

And in my experience, the stuff from Taiwan usually has fewer QC
problems. They've been catering to the more demanding Western market
for longer than the mainland, and it shows. In the PRC, the customer
only gets good stuff if the customer knows how to make sure that is
what is supplied. Otherwise, they'll ship whatever they've got. This
applies to more than just toothpaste.

Plus, the average Taiwanese worker gets paid something closer to a
living wage for the area.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Tom Sherman]

Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The
>>> Peoples' Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
>
> still just me wrote:
>> Holding on to that, eh?
>
> yep.
> Freedom is always the right answer.

I am going to shock Andrew by agreeing with him. Taiwan has evolved into
a functioning democracy, and the workers at the bicycle factories there
generally are paid well enough to purchase automobiles to drive to work
(we will leave the discussion on whether or not that is a good things to
another thread). The bicycles made there that I have seen/own have
good quality welds and powder coating.

Mainland China (sorry Jobst) on the other hand has factories where the
wages are barely enough to feed the workers, who put up with unsafe
conditions. The political-economic system has managed to combine the
worse aspects of Leninism and fascism.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing a
>> dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers
>> a decent product, stands behind everything it sells, nothing of
>> which is "Made In China."
>
> It's always hi-larious watching the anti-Rivendell dudgeon some people
> get themselves worked into. It's just a small bike company. They just
> sell they stuff they like. All people have to do is not buy it if they
> don't agree.

That about sums it up. It's not as if Grant Peterson has the kind of
marketing clout that's going to change the world. He markets to a network of
people who already believe in his ideas & products. He writes well & spins a
good yarn, so even those who disagree with a lot of what he says still enjoy
the Rivendell Reader.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Hank Wirtz]

On Nov 18, 7:27 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing a
> >> dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers
> >> a decent product, stands behind everything it sells, nothing of
> >> which is "Made In China."
>
> > It's always hi-larious watching the anti-Rivendell dudgeon some people
> > get themselves worked into. It's just a small bike company. They just
> > sell they stuff they like. All people have to do is not buy it if they
> > don't agree.
>
> That about sums it up. It's not as if Grant Peterson has the kind of
> marketing clout that's going to change the world. He markets to a network of
> people who already believe in his ideas & products. He writes well & spins a
> good yarn, so even those who disagree with a lot of what he says still enjoy
> the Rivendell Reader.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Really...are they any worse than one of the bigs telling you that
Every Bike Needs Disc Brakes, or Tire And Fender Clearance Is For
Sissies, or Integrated Headsets Are Stiff Yet Compliant?

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 18, 10:34 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 18, 10:08 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > >>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > >>>On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > >>Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
> > >>people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?
>
> > > Why don't you tell me?
>
> > Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.
>
> I don't think Ozark's playing, Wayne. ;-)
>
> > >>It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
> > >>two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
> > >>person.
>
> > > "Replace two bikes with one"?
>
> > 650B is between 559 and 700C in diameter. You claim that 650B offers no
> > advantages over either. Obviously some people do.
>
> The one advantage of 650B that makes sense to me is this: In the last
> 10 years, it's been very difficult to find 700c bikes with sufficient
> clearance for fenders and tires wider than 28mm.

That's hardly new information.....

<snip>
>
> BTW, the first I heard of 650B was back in, oh, 1974 or so. Fred
> DeLong recommended that as the optimum wheel size for touring
> tandems.

Gee, it's not 1974 anymore, Frank (Did ya get the news? Nixon is
dead.). The selection of available rims has changed dramatically in
those 33 years. Do you really think Mr.DeLong would recommend 650B for
tandem use in the USA *today* over the wide selection of easily
available 559/26" (559 did not exist in 1974, Frank) and much improved
522/700C rims.


Oh, and here is some input on the availability of 650B in *France*, a
putative hotbed of 650B -ness:

http://tinyurl.com/22zprr

or, for the cautious set:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/22zprr

Do get back to us in the reality of 2007, Frankie!

[still just me]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:34:27 -0800 (PST), frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:

>
>The one advantage of 650B that makes sense to me is this: In the last
>10 years, it's been very difficult to find 700c bikes with sufficient
>clearance for fenders and tires wider than 28mm. I've battled that
>problem when helping others try to make their "good bikes" more
>useful.

But Rivendell makes their own frames... supposedly with a vintage
flair. This wasn't a problem those vintage days they model, why is it
a problem now? They could just as easily choose to build frames to
accommodate what customers want.

[A Muzi]

> On Nov 18, 10:08 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Nov 18, 6:03 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 18, 12:42 pm, Wayne Pein <wp...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> Further, if all three sizes are equal in terms of performance, why do
>>>> people have 559 for one bike and 770C for another?
>>> Why don't you tell me?
>> Don't play dumb. It's for mt. bikes and road bikes.

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't think Ozark's playing, Wayne. ;-)

>>>> It seems to me the real benefit is that someone with 650B could replace
>>>> two sizes and two bikes with one. That may be reason enough for that
>>>> person.
>>> "Replace two bikes with one"?
>> 650B is between 559 and 700C in diameter. You claim that 650B offers no
>> advantages over either. Obviously some people do.

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> The one advantage of 650B that makes sense to me is this: In the last
> 10 years, it's been very difficult to find 700c bikes with sufficient
> clearance for fenders and tires wider than 28mm. I've battled that
> problem when helping others try to make their "good bikes" more
> useful.
>
> 650B offers a possible solution. Changing to that rim & tire size
> allows more clearance. Yes, building wheels (and probably changing
> brakes) isn't cheap. But it's probably cheaper than changing the
> entire bike.
>
> BTW, the first I heard of 650B was back in, oh, 1974 or so. Fred
> DeLong recommended that as the optimum wheel size for touring
> tandems.
>
> Now, Fred DeLong was generally known as a) extremely knowledgeable
> about bike technology b) not connected in any way with bike
> marketing. He wasn't making such a recommendation to delude the poor
> people reading his writing. He was making the recommendation because
> he thought it made sense. And he clearly wasn't worried about 650B
> vanishing from the world.
>
> Of course, it may be that discount bike mechanics also rail against
> Fred DeLong just like they do against Grant Peterson, Jobst Brandt,
> and anyone else who makes them feel inferior.

I truly have no dog in this fight. 650B is just a tire size, not an ethos!
In 650B we stock both $10 tires and $80 vintage French tires but few
(four?) models, as the scant volume won't support many.
In 700C we stock literally 50+ different tires as the demand is broad
and consistent. Most LBS will probably be similar in that selection.

As with every other bit of cycling equipment, some riders will find a
useful place for these wheels, others will roll their eyes and ride
away. If it works for you, that's wonderful. If not, change them.

(I once built a new Rivendell 650B frameset with 700-28 and drum brakes.
That merely required different frame ends)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Sherman]

frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> ...
> Of course, it may be that discount bike mechanics also rail against
> Fred DeLong just like they do against Grant Peterson, Jobst Brandt,
> and anyone else who makes them feel inferior.

Add Sheldon Brown to the list.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

[Marian]

On Nov 19, 3:34 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:32:37 -0600, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
> >> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>> Many people distinguish between Free China, Taiwan ROC and The Peoples'
> >>> Republic for a variety of reasons. Including me.
>
> >still just me wrote:
> >> Holding on to that, eh?
>
> >yep.
> >Freedom is always the right answer.
>
> And in my experience, the stuff from Taiwan usually has fewer QC
> problems. They've been catering to the more demanding Western market
> for longer than the mainland, and it shows. In the PRC, the customer
> only gets good stuff if the customer knows how to make sure that is
> what is supplied. Otherwise, they'll ship whatever they've got. This
> applies to more than just toothpaste.
>
> Plus, the average Taiwanese worker gets paid something closer to a
> living wage for the area.

Do you have any clue what a living wage is for China?

Since I usually use my own (grossly inflated) salary as an example I
will instead use my friend Frank as an example.

In July he started working for the local bike shop. Because he had
only completed three years of university and had not yet proven
himself to be a competent employee he started as a trainee on 600rmb a
month. Although he technically got two days a week off the housing
provided to him was on the fourth floor of the shop and he found it
hard not to be helpful when an extra hand was needed.

600 rmb = US $78

Near the end of his second month at the bike shop the bike shop owner
and the Shimano rep recommended him to Shimano Shanghai as a mechanic
to work at a Shimano Shop-in-Shop partner store. So far as I
understand it in China bike shops that are allowed to sell Shimano are
supposed to have Shimano certified mechanics who work *at* the bike
shop but who work *for* Shimano. The shop pays Shimano for a bunch of
different things (including him) and he gets a salary and commission
from Shimano. He could conceivably be asked to go to a different bike
shop and he is not supposed to sell complete bikes or anything non-
Shimano anymore.

Now his salary was raised to (I think) 1200 rmb a month. That's
barely US $160.

A college educated (though he hasn't yet graduated), bilingual,
trained bicycle mechanic who works for Shimano at the best pro bike
shop in the province (which is also one of the best in the country)
makes barely US $160 a month plus commission. And he's happy with
that. Thinks it is a good salary with good potential for advancement.

Now that I've told you what a reasonable salary is would you please
tell me again about how the abused Chinese factory worker is failing
to get a living wage? Cause you and I seem to have vastly different
opinions of what a Chinese living wage is.

-M

[still just me]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:34:21 -0600, Werehatrack
<rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

>And in my experience, the stuff from Taiwan usually has fewer QC
>problems. They've been catering to the more demanding Western market
>for longer than the mainland, and it shows. In the PRC, the customer
>only gets good stuff if the customer knows how to make sure that is
>what is supplied. Otherwise, they'll ship whatever they've got. This
>applies to more than just toothpaste.

I think that's because the Taiwanese have been at it longer.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <47413dc1$0$20422$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>,
"James Thomson" <yosnappyj@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> a écrit:
>
> > ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size. It predominates in
> > France. It is the norm there.
>
> It really isn't.

Correct, as other French participants have pointed out.

> There is a large fleet of older utility bikes still running 650B, but
> *very* few bikes built in the last twenty years are 650B. 26" (559mm)
> and 700c are by far the most common sizes. 650C and 20" (406mm) are
> easy to find. Many shops don't stock any 650B tyres, and I haven't
> seen a single new 650B rim in the 6 years I've lived here, though I
> know they're available from Berthoud and the like.

Berthoud abandoned 650B a few years ago in favor of 700C and 559/26" for
exactly the reasons you cite. There is one 650B tire (the Megamium) and
one 650B rim made in France, which exist only because of the efforts of
the Confrerie 650B.

http://www.cyclos-cyclotes.org/650/index_ang.html

There is always an amazing amount of bull**** in the 650B threads and
any thread about Rivendell in general. It's just a tire size, nothing
more and nothing less. If it suits your interests, buy it; if it
doesn't, then don't. Nobody's going to force anyone to buy a 650B bike.
There's no coercion here. It's just another option.

[Michael Press]

In article
<47413dc1$0$20422$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>,
"James Thomson" <yosnappyj@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> a écrit:
>
> > ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size.
> > It predominates in France. It is the norm
> > there.
>
> It really isn't.
>
> There is a large fleet of older utility bikes still running 650B, but *very*
> few bikes built in the last twenty years are 650B. 26" (559mm) and 700c are
> by far the most common sizes. 650C and 20" (406mm) are easy to find. Many
> shops don't stock any 650B tyres, and I haven't seen a single new 650B rim
> in the 6 years I've lived here, though I know they're available from
> Berthoud and the like.
>
> Last year I renovated an old postman's bike for a friend. After much soul
> searching, I filed off the 650B cantilever mounts and had them replaced for
> 559-26". The selection of tyres and rims is far greater, and (in my
> estimation) likely to remain so.

Thanks for the update.

Now if we could only stamp it out in the USA
the scourge would be extinct.

--
Michael Press

[bfd]

On Nov 19, 3:56 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 10:34 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> Gee, it's not 1974 anymore, Frank (Did ya get the news? Nixon is
> dead.). The selection of available rims has changed dramatically in
> those 33 years.

The selection of 650B rims is growing. Rigida makes 3 rims - the AS 25
WI, V38 and the ST 32. Velocity, who has been leading the charge with
its Synergy rim, and now Sun/Ringle is being pushed by Kirk Pacenti,
Grant and many others. In fact, if you want to comment, join on in:

http://tinyurl.com/2s7e6w

[Tim McNamara]

In article <9t23k35ujb8rq9rek72cqm9p4nejhemhqc@4ax.com>,
still just me <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:34:27 -0800 (PST), frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >The one advantage of 650B that makes sense to me is this: In the
> >last 10 years, it's been very difficult to find 700c bikes with
> >sufficient clearance for fenders and tires wider than 28mm. I've
> >battled that problem when helping others try to make their "good
> >bikes" more useful.
>
> But Rivendell makes their own frames... supposedly with a vintage
> flair.

They build bikes with the techniques and designs that Grant Petersen
likes. They are not deliberately "vintage" or "retro." They use steel
tubes and fancy lugs because that's what Grant likes and thinks makes
the best frames. He likes fast cushy tires, so his frame designs all
have clearance for that. He sweats details of frame design most of us
don't know exist.

> This wasn't a problem those vintage days they model, why is it
> a problem now? They could just as easily choose to build frames to
> accommodate what customers want.

They do, since they wouldn't sell any if their frames did not
accommodate what their customers want. For many people, Rivendell's
frames are not their cups of tea- they want 16 lb bikes with brifters
and 10 speed cassettes and CF forks and the like. There are lots of
options which accommodate what those folks want. There are few
non-custom options for people who like lugs and steel frames and don't
find it a handicap if their bike weighs 22 lbs. Rivendell has followed
their own muse in this and has been in business for 13 years, has grown
steadily, if fairly slowly, and has been profitable for a good few years
now.

[Michael Press]

In article
<9t23k35ujb8rq9rek72cqm9p4nejhemhqc@4ax.com>,
still just me <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:34:27 -0800 (PST), frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >The one advantage of 650B that makes sense to me is this: In the last
> >10 years, it's been very difficult to find 700c bikes with sufficient
> >clearance for fenders and tires wider than 28mm. I've battled that
> >problem when helping others try to make their "good bikes" more
> >useful.
>
> But Rivendell makes their own frames... supposedly with a vintage
> flair. This wasn't a problem those vintage days they model, why is it
> a problem now? They could just as easily choose to build frames to
> accommodate what customers want.

Yes. Thanks. We can drive a Humvee through the gap
in R's 650B logic.

--
Michael Press

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<d48ae99c-7b87-4262-9258-d20a126a6cb9@41g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"dustoyevsky@mac.com" <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:

> I haven't devoted the time, but is "Rivendel" supposed to be some
> kind of antipodal to "racerboy"?

Rivendell caters to a different approach to riding a bike than the
"racerboy" mindset, if that's what you mean. But I know people who have
successfully raced on Rivendell frames, even winning races on them, too.
But a perusal through the Rivendell catalog will find things that make
the racerboys laugh as hard as most Americans laugh at the racerboys.
Things like baggy shorts and pants, seersucker riding shirts, wool
jerseys and armwarmers and legwarmers and tights and socks and hats and
cycling gloves with crocheted backs and leather palms.

> Couldn't one contact any number of custom makers and get something
> made of any material, including maybe even bamboo, to suit an
> intended use? Without the fairytale window dressing, that is?

Sure. Or you can buy a full-custom frame from Rivendell, built to order
in a one-man shop in Minneapolis by Curt Goodrich. Currently the wait
list is 2-3 years, though. But in terms of production frames, Rivendell
is pretty much it for steel lugged frames if that's what you want.

There is no fairytale window dressing, though. What Grant presents in
his catalog is how he and his friends ride bike. He puts his personal
preferences into his product line and sells the stuff he likes to use.
Enough people have similar preferences that he's remained in business
ever since 1994.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Nov 19, 8:44 am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Nov 18, 9:56 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Oh, Grant Peterson is evil, all right! I put him in the same evil
> > class as Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates.
>
> > Imagine, taking money from willing customers!
>
> > No, worse than that, I put Rivendell in the same evil class as the big
> > oil companies, the major pharmaceutical firms, the huge agribiz firms,
> > and the *-marts exploiting Chinese and American workers. Why, I bet
> > he uses slave labor!
>
> > No, worse than that, I put anyone who makes more money than a discount
> > bike mechanic in the same class as Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!
>
> The criticism of the 650B is obvious. And no one exaggerated it to the
> wadded-panties level you're operating at here...That wasn't the drive of anything
> I read here.

Oh? Did you not notice Ozark's change of the thread title? Let me
copy it for you:

"Rivendell uses customers as pawns in quest to increase profits."

Based on that, I'd say Ozark's panties were well wadded!

>
> Not only that, you're stealing my lines. But missing the (intended)
> humor (of course).

I wasn't aware I stole "your" lines - I must have missed the
copyright. If I did, I apologize, and promise to send appropriate
compensation immediately. But don't make dinner reservations just
yet!

As to humor - well, either you get it or you don't!

But back to the subject: It remains true that Grant Peterson/
Rivendell is allowed to choose their product lines, describe them to
their advantage (as long as they remain truthful), and sell them to
those who choose to buy them.

That's pretty much the way our economic system is supposed to work,
whether Rivendell's rabid detractors understand it or not. If you do
understand that, you may want to accept Ozark as a student and explain
it to him.

- Frank Krygowski

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 19, 8:38 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <47413dc1$0$20422$79c14...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>,
> "James Thomson" <yosnap...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> a écrit:
>
> > > ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size. It predominates in
> > > France. It is the norm there.
>
> > It really isn't.
>
> Correct, as other French participants have pointed out.
>
> > There is a large fleet of older utility bikes still running 650B, but
> > *very* few bikes built in the last twenty years are 650B. 26" (559mm)
> > and 700c are by far the most common sizes. 650C and 20" (406mm) are
> > easy to find. Many shops don't stock any 650B tyres, and I haven't
> > seen a single new 650B rim in the 6 years I've lived here, though I
> > know they're available from Berthoud and the like.
>
> Berthoud abandoned 650B a few years ago in favor of 700C and 559/26" for
> exactly the reasons you cite. There is one 650B tire (the Megamium) and
> one 650B rim made in France, which exist only because of the efforts of
> the Confrerie 650B.
>
> http://www.cyclos-cyclotes.org/650/index_ang.html
>
> There is always an amazing amount of bull**** in the 650B threads and
> any thread about Rivendell in general. It's just a tire size, nothing
> more and nothing less. If it suits your interests, buy it; if it
> doesn't, then don't. Nobody's going to force anyone to buy a 650B bike.
> There's no coercion here.

You willfully miss the fact that Petersen/Rivendell sell to a largely
uninformed/underinformed and credulous customer base. Many are
returning to cycling after a long hiatus or for the first time since
childhood. They wouldn't know what wheel size they were getting if it
bit them in the arse. Petersen loves to paint the picture that 650B is
somehow better than 26" or 700C *and* that availability is not now and
will not become an issue. None of that is true and a little
counterpoint to that BS on Usenet is surely a Good Thing.


> It's just another option.

*If* the buyer is fully informed.

[James Thomson]

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> a écrit:

> "James Thomson" <yosnappyj@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> a écrit:

>>> ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size. It predominates
>>> in France. It is the norm there.

>> It really isn't.

> Correct, as other French participants have pointed out.

I can't tell - are you simply telling me that I'm correct (I know I am),
supporting my assertion (on what grounds?), or criticising me for repeating
what French participants have previously written?

I know that I'm repeating *myself*, but only because I seem well placed to
correct a recurring misconception.

>> Many shops don't stock any 650B tyres, and I haven't seen a
>> single new 650B rim in the 6 years I've lived here, though I
>> know they're available from Berthoud and the like.

> Berthoud abandoned 650B a few years ago in favor of
> 700C and 559/26" for exactly the reasons you cite.

Berthoud sells 650B rims - at least, they're in his catalogue, and have been
for a long time. I know that his bikes are 559 and 700c based: I admired
some of them at the Mondial last month, and I've been to his shop at Pont de
Vaux twice.

> There is always an amazing amount of bull**** in the 650B
> threads and any thread about Rivendell in general. It's just
> a tire size, nothing more and nothing less. If it suits your
> interests, buy it; if it doesn't, then don't.

Again, I can't tell. Are you addressing these comments to me, or to the
gallery?

James Thomson

[SMS 斯蒂文• �]

Tim McNamara wrote:

> They do, since they wouldn't sell any if their frames did not
> accommodate what their customers want. For many people, Rivendell's
> frames are not their cups of tea- they want 16 lb bikes with brifters
> and 10 speed cassettes and CF forks and the like. There are lots of
> options which accommodate what those folks want. There are few
> non-custom options for people who like lugs and steel frames and don't
> find it a handicap if their bike weighs 22 lbs. Rivendell has followed
> their own muse in this and has been in business for 13 years, has grown
> steadily, if fairly slowly, and has been profitable for a good few years
> now.

While they're not lugged, the frames from Surly are also good options
for those that want steel frames, clearance for fenders, etc. The
smaller sizes use 26" wheels instead of 700c, which some people may
prefer, though the tire options are more limited than with 700c.

[A Muzi]

>> "James Thomson" <yosnap...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> a écrit:
>>>> ISO 584 is not an intrinsically bad size. It predominates in
>>>> France. It is the norm there.
>>> It really isn't.

> Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> Correct, as other French participants have pointed out.

>>> There is a large fleet of older utility bikes still running 650B, but
>>> *very* few bikes built in the last twenty years are 650B. 26" (559mm)
>>> and 700c are by far the most common sizes. 650C and 20" (406mm) are
>>> easy to find. Many shops don't stock any 650B tyres, and I haven't
>>> seen a single new 650B rim in the 6 years I've lived here, though I
>>> know they're available from Berthoud and the like.

> Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> Berthoud abandoned 650B a few years ago in favor of 700C and 559/26" for
>> exactly the reasons you cite. There is one 650B tire (the Megamium) and
>> one 650B rim made in France, which exist only because of the efforts of
>> the Confrerie 650B.
>>
>> http://www.cyclos-cyclotes.org/650/index_ang.html
>>
>> There is always an amazing amount of bull**** in the 650B threads and
>> any thread about Rivendell in general. It's just a tire size, nothing
>> more and nothing less. If it suits your interests, buy it; if it
>> doesn't, then don't. Nobody's going to force anyone to buy a 650B bike.
>> There's no coercion here.

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> You willfully miss the fact that Petersen/Rivendell sell to a largely
> uninformed/underinformed and credulous customer base. Many are
> returning to cycling after a long hiatus or for the first time since
> childhood. They wouldn't know what wheel size they were getting if it
> bit them in the arse. Petersen loves to paint the picture that 650B is
> somehow better than 26" or 700C *and* that availability is not now and
> will not become an issue. None of that is true and a little
> counterpoint to that BS on Usenet is surely a Good Thing.

> Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> It's just another option.

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> *If* the buyer is fully informed.

[chortle]
Do you think any Dodge Neon buyers actually checked to see what those
special size tires would cost to replace? Heck, no.

Waiting for an 'informed consumer' could take a good long while - for
any product. And who's to say what constitutes 'informed' anyway? I have
purchased used books from time to time with [pause, breath.. ] words I
didn't yet know and even things I hadn't read before! The horror!

People buy what they like for reasons they may not even be able to
articulate. More power to 'em, and to you. There's no 'problem' here I
can see. What, ya gonna call the cops because somebody buys a Snickers
without reading the label? Sheesh.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Nov 19, 9:56 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
>
> You willfully miss the fact that Petersen/Rivendell sell to a largely
> uninformed/underinformed and credulous customer base.

And you have evidence about the average knowledge level of Rivendell
customers? Hmm. I wonder where you got that!

Can we see the details?

- Frank Krygowski

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 19, 8:57 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article
> <d48ae99c-7b87-4262-9258-d20a126a6...@41g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> > I haven't devoted the time, but is "Rivendel" supposed to be some
> > kind of antipodal to "racerboy"?
>
> Rivendell caters to a different approach to riding a bike than the
> "racerboy" mindset, if that's what you mean. But I know people who have
> successfully raced on Rivendell frames, even winning races on them, too.
> But a perusal through the Rivendell catalog will find things that make
> the racerboys laugh as hard as most Americans laugh at the racerboys.
> Things like baggy shorts and pants, seersucker riding shirts, wool
> jerseys and armwarmers and legwarmers and tights and socks and hats and
> cycling gloves with crocheted backs and leather palms.
>
> > Couldn't one contact any number of custom makers and get something
> > made of any material, including maybe even bamboo, to suit an
> > intended use? Without the fairytale window dressing, that is?
>
> Sure. Or you can buy a full-custom frame from Rivendell, built to order
> in a one-man shop in Minneapolis by Curt Goodrich. Currently the wait
> list is 2-3 years, though. But in terms of production frames, Rivendell
> is pretty much it for steel lugged frames if that's what you want.

There are other lugged production frames; Soma Speedster comes quickly
to mind.

And, for about the same price of a Riv production frame, you can get a
custom made, lugged frame in your choice of color from Waterford,
delivered on a timely basis. Of course, the Waterfords come sans the
fairytale window dressing, the tribalism and the warm, fuzzy BS from
The Grant.
>
> There is no fairytale window dressing, though.

"No fairytale window dressing"? Quickbeam? Bombadil? Rivendell?

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Nov 19, 8:57 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

> But a perusal through the Rivendell catalog will find things that make
> the racerboys laugh as hard as most Americans laugh at the racerboys.

I saw the hatchet on the home page and kept going anyhow <g>.

> Things like baggy shorts and pants, seersucker riding shirts, wool
> jerseys and armwarmers and legwarmers and tights and socks and hats and
> cycling gloves with crocheted backs and leather palms.

And *****ing about "too many speeds". Ahem. Loaded touring (hatchet?),
I'll take as many as possible, and Ergo, too, please.

IME, people are jealous of crochet suntan hands. "Where can I get
those [gloves]?"

> There is no fairytale window dressing, though.

Referring to a fictional place... elves, etc. etc. Don't get me wrong,
I don't mind at all (WCFP) (NO) (whocaresinthefirstplacenoone), I was
in the Boy Scouts, have carried tent and tent pegs (hatchet ref. #2)
on bike, and so on. No elves at Holdsworth or Roberts-- or at least,
none in the catalogs I ordered from!

> What Grant presents in
> his catalog is how he and his friends ride bike. He puts his personal
> preferences into his product line and sells the stuff he likes to use.
> Enough people have similar preferences that he's remained in business
> ever since 1994.

Long may it wave. Craftsmanship, attention to detail, stuff that
works.

650C is at least a lot easier. But, similar to 650B "backlash", I had
a few discussions IRT wheel size when my other half got her 650C Guru.
Like everything, some people don't accept other than "standard". I
heard "that was a mistake". Um, I disagree...

Point is, having frame geometry other than 75deg seat tube, 71deg head
tube, and a top tube that is still too long, with 700C wheels.

Proof is in the riding. Not posing as any kind of sizing expert (PTL!)
but I'm seeing a bike that fits and handles. She says it's the first
time she's been really comfortable on a bike (the Terry Butterfly
making a large contribution), and she hammers on the thing (age/job
hours adj.) She rode the old 700C bike, with above noted problems, all
over the place. The Guru is a lot better (fits in the trunk with only
the front wheel off, too <g>).

(Excuse long wind-up plz): If Peterson delivers similar for his
customers with the slightly different-sized 650B, at worst it's no
skin off my nose. But the criticisms IRT rim and tire availability and
cost stand.

That said, it gets to the point where you have to give others credit
for being grown-ups sometimes, you know? --D-y

[r15757@aol.com]

On Nov 19, 7:57 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:


> But in terms of production frames, Rivendell
> is pretty much it for steel lugged frames if that's what you want.

I don't want to badmouth GP too bad, I've ridden my share of
Bridgestones and enjoyed the hell out of them, but my lugged Waterford
2200 beats the living crap out of those Lord of the Rings tanks he's
building over there.

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<2de7a63a-108b-422c-8e60-7163e440548c@b32g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
"dustoyevsky@mac.com" <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:

> On Nov 19, 8:57 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > But a perusal through the Rivendell catalog will find things that
> > make the racerboys laugh as hard as most Americans laugh at the
> > racerboys.
>
> I saw the hatchet on the home page and kept going anyhow <g>.
>
> > Things like baggy shorts and pants, seersucker riding shirts, wool
> > jerseys and armwarmers and legwarmers and tights and socks and hats
> > and cycling gloves with crocheted backs and leather palms.
>
> And *****ing about "too many speeds". Ahem. Loaded touring
> (hatchet?), I'll take as many as possible, and Ergo, too, please.

To each their own. I have returned to friction downtube shifting on all
but two bikes: my tandem (no downtube mounts) and my three speed. I
used Ergo when racing, but there's just no benefits for me now that I
have graduated to riding my bike for fun, and I like things mechanically
simple.

> IME, people are jealous of crochet suntan hands. "Where can I get
> those [gloves]?"

I get asked all the time when people see my funky tanned hands... but
what I am asked is "do you play golf?"

> > There is no fairytale window dressing, though.
>
> Referring to a fictional place... elves, etc. etc. Don't get me
> wrong, I don't mind at all (WCFP) (NO)

Rivendell Bicycle Works was named indirectly after that stuff. It was
named in homage to a camping gear company named Rivendell that came and
went years back. Grant apparently admired their products greatly. I am
actually rather amazed that the Tolkien estate hasn't sent Grant a
cease-and-desist order from using the various names.

However, I had forgotten that there is a bit of fictional fluff which is
the legend of A Homer Hilsen, the non-existent olde tyme baseball player
after whom the bike is named.

> (whocaresinthefirstplacenoone), I was in the Boy Scouts, have carried
> tent and tent pegs (hatchet ref. #2) on bike, and so on. No elves at
> Holdsworth or Roberts-- or at least, none in the catalogs I ordered
> from!
>
> > What Grant presents in his catalog is how he and his friends ride
> > bike. He puts his personal preferences into his product line and
> > sells the stuff he likes to use. Enough people have similar
> > preferences that he's remained in business ever since 1994.
>
> Long may it wave. Craftsmanship, attention to detail, stuff that
> works.
>
> 650C is at least a lot easier. But, similar to 650B "backlash", I had
> a few discussions IRT wheel size when my other half got her 650C
> Guru. Like everything, some people don't accept other than
> "standard". I heard "that was a mistake". Um, I disagree...
>
> Point is, having frame geometry other than 75deg seat tube, 71deg
> head tube, and a top tube that is still too long, with 700C wheels.
>
> Proof is in the riding. Not posing as any kind of sizing expert
> (PTL!) but I'm seeing a bike that fits and handles. She says it's the
> first time she's been really comfortable on a bike (the Terry
> Butterfly making a large contribution), and she hammers on the thing
> (age/job hours adj.) She rode the old 700C bike, with above noted
> problems, all over the place. The Guru is a lot better (fits in the
> trunk with only the front wheel off, too <g>).

Grant is quite correct in pointing out the problems of designing small
bikes around 700C wheels, which you also describe. A lot of shorter
folks have put up with suboptimal fit and suboptimal riding qualities
for a long time. A smaller wheel size eliminates those problems, but
bikies "in the know" are so usually convinced of the superiority of 700C
that they treat anything else as a toy.

> (Excuse long wind-up plz): If Peterson delivers similar for his
> customers with the slightly different-sized 650B, at worst it's no
> skin off my nose. But the criticisms IRT rim and tire availability
> and cost stand.

As I said, there are at least 10 models of medium to high quality tires
and three models of rims for 650B. They cost no more than 700C tires or
rims. You can get them anywhere in the US quickly, thanks to mail
order, and because Quality Bicycle Products carries 650B stuff almost
any bike shop can get it, too.

> That said, it gets to the point where you have to give others credit
> for being grown-ups sometimes, you know? --D-y

Yep. Your needs may be different than my needs. I've ridden a few 650B
bikes and they are nice. The ride is smoother than any 700C bike I've
ridden and smoother than my 11 year old Rivendell All-Rounder road bike
which has 26 x 1.25s on it. But I don't own a 650B bike because the
bikes I have are reasonably good compromises and the 650B size just
doesn't offer big enough advantages to me. I've thought about adapting
the All-Rounder to 650B, though, just to give it a thorough try.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 19, 12:09 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 19, 3:56 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 10:34 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Gee, it's not 1974 anymore, Frank (Did ya get the news? Nixon is
> > dead.). The selection of available rims has changed dramatically in
> > those 33 years.
>
> The selection of 650B rims is growing.

It would have a hard time getting smaller, eh?

> Rigida makes 3 rims - the AS 25
> WI, V38 and the ST 32. Velocity, who has been leading the charge with
> its Synergy rim,

Wow - a choice of *4* different rims -I'm overwhelmed!


> and now Sun/Ringle is being pushed by Kirk Pacenti,
> Grant and many others. In fact, if you want to comment, join on in:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2s7e6w

Why bother? The 650B dinosaur is headed for the museum, where it
belongs.

[bfd]

On Nov 19, 10:46 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Nov 19, 12:09 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 19, 3:56 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 18, 10:34 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Gee, it's not 1974 anymore, Frank (Did ya get the news? Nixon is
> > > dead.). The selection of available rims has changed dramatically in
> > > those 33 years.
>
> > The selection of 650B rims is growing.
>
> It would have a hard time getting smaller, eh?
>
> > Rigida makes 3 rims - the AS 25
> > WI, V38 and the ST 32. Velocity, who has been leading the charge with
> > its Synergy rim,
>
> Wow - a choice of *4* different rims -I'm overwhelmed!
>
Actually, Velocity alone makes 4 different 650B/584mm rims: Aerohead,
Synergy (previously mentioned), Glider and Triple-V:

http://www.chainringtransitauthority.com/store/650b/650b_rims.shtml#aerohead

Also, it appears that KORE is coming out with 650B/27.5 rim and Kendra
will be bringing out a new 650B tire:

http://650bpalace.blogspot.com/2007/11/i-didnt-want-to-be-trigger-man.html

>Why bother? The 650B dinosaur is headed for the museum, where it
belongs.

Well, the comments so far on the Sun/Ringle 650B blog have all been
positive. If you and others are so oppose, then only the *favorable*
comments will appear and the next thing you know, another 650B/
27.5/584mm rim!

[M-gineering]

bfd wrote:
> On Nov 19, 10:46 am, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 19, 12:09 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 19, 3:56 am, Ozark Bicycle
>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>> On Nov 18, 10:34 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Gee, it's not 1974 anymore, Frank (Did ya get the news? Nixon is
>>>> dead.). The selection of available rims has changed dramatically in
>>>> those 33 years.
>>> The selection of 650B rims is growing.
>> It would have a hard time getting smaller, eh?
>>
>>> Rigida makes 3 rims - the AS 25
>>> WI, V38 and the ST 32. Velocity, who has been leading the charge with
>>> its Synergy rim,
>> Wow - a choice of *4* different rims -I'm overwhelmed!
>>
> Actually, Velocity alone makes 4 different 650B/584mm rims: Aerohead,
> Synergy (previously mentioned), Glider and Triple-V:
>
> http://www.chainringtransitauthority.com/store/650b/650b_rims.shtml#aerohead
>
> Also, it appears that KORE is coming out with 650B/27.5 rim and Kendra
> will be bringing out a new 650B tire:
>
> http://650bpalace.blogspot.com/2007/11/i-didnt-want-to-be-trigger-man.html
>
>> Why bother? The 650B dinosaur is headed for the museum, where it
> belongs.
>
> Well, the comments so far on the Sun/Ringle 650B blog have all been
> positive. If you and others are so oppose, then only the *favorable*
> comments will appear and the next thing you know, another 650B/
> 27.5/584mm rim!
>

Now if only GT would reintroduce a 700D sized wheel, we could all stop
bickering about 650B ;)

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[Michael Press]

In article <fhssnk$3m8$1@localhost.localdomain>,
M-gineering <ikmotgeenspam@m-gineering.nl> wrote:

> bfd wrote:
> > On Nov 19, 10:46 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> On Nov 19, 12:09 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Nov 19, 3:56 am, Ozark Bicycle
> >>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Nov 18, 10:34 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Gee, it's not 1974 anymore, Frank (Did ya get the news? Nixon is
> >>>> dead.). The selection of available rims has changed dramatically in
> >>>> those 33 years.
> >>> The selection of 650B rims is growing.
> >> It would have a hard time getting smaller, eh?
> >>
> >>> Rigida makes 3 rims - the AS 25
> >>> WI, V38 and the ST 32. Velocity, who has been leading the charge with
> >>> its Synergy rim,
> >> Wow - a choice of *4* different rims -I'm overwhelmed!
> >>
> > Actually, Velocity alone makes 4 different 650B/584mm rims: Aerohead,
> > Synergy (previously mentioned), Glider and Triple-V:
> >
> > http://www.chainringtransitauthority.com/store/650b/650b_rims.shtml#aerohead
> >
> > Also, it appears that KORE is coming out with 650B/27.5 rim and Kendra
> > will be bringing out a new 650B tire:
> >
> > http://650bpalace.blogspot.com/2007/11/i-didnt-want-to-be-trigger-man.html
> >
> >> Why bother? The 650B dinosaur is headed for the museum, where it
> > belongs.
> >
> > Well, the comments so far on the Sun/Ringle 650B blog have all been
> > positive. If you and others are so oppose, then only the *favorable*
> > comments will appear and the next thing you know, another 650B/
> > 27.5/584mm rim!
> >
>
> Now if only GT would reintroduce a 700D sized wheel, we could all stop
> bickering about 650B ;)

Holy princess pea, Batman! Fully 1.5 mm larger radius than 650B.

--
Michael Press

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> On Nov 18, 7:27 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >> And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing a
>> >> dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers
>> >> a decent product, stands behind everything it sells, nothing of
>> >> which is "Made In China."
>>
>> > It's always hi-larious watching the anti-Rivendell dudgeon some people
>> > get themselves worked into. It's just a small bike company. They just
>> > sell they stuff they like. All people have to do is not buy it if they
>> > don't agree.
>>
>> That about sums it up. It's not as if Grant Peterson has the kind of
>> marketing clout that's going to change the world. He markets to a network
>> of
>> people who already believe in his ideas & products. He writes well &
>> spins a
>> good yarn, so even those who disagree with a lot of what he says still
>> enjoy
>> the Rivendell Reader.
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> Really...are they any worse than one of the bigs telling you that
> Every Bike Needs Disc Brakes, or Tire And Fender Clearance Is For
> Sissies, or Integrated Headsets Are Stiff Yet Compliant?

At least with the "big" guys, people generally assume it's all for
marketing. Grant gets cut a lot more slack for his ideas than, say, somebody
at Trek... even though I can think of a few guys at Trek (CP, for example,
who handles the "pavement" aka commuting/campus/general-getting-around
bikes) who probably think things through just as thoroughly and are hard
core when it comes to delivering a product that actually works as
advertised. Doesn't matter; since they work for the Evil Empire, it's
assumed they're simply interchangeable droids up to no good.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Hank Wirtz" <hank@wirtznet.net> wrote in message
news:05ee25a7-0ea8-47fa-bb12-7f25f1008d68@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 18, 7:27 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >> And the target is Rivendell, a small hands on company employing a
>> >> dozen people that tries to live up to it's mission statement, offers
>> >> a decent product, stands behind everything it sells, nothing of
>> >> which is "Made In China."
>>
>> > It's always hi-larious watching the anti-Rivendell dudgeon some people
>> > get themselves worked into. It's just a small bike company. They just
>> > sell they stuff they like. All people have to do is not buy it if they
>> > don't agree.
>>
>> That about sums it up. It's not as if Grant Peterson has the kind of
>> marketing clout that's going to change the world. He markets to a network
>> of
>> people who already believe in his ideas & products. He writes well &
>> spins a
>> good yarn, so even those who disagree with a lot of what he says still
>> enjoy
>> the Rivendell Reader.
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> Really...are they any worse than one of the bigs telling you that
> Every Bike Needs Disc Brakes, or Tire And Fender Clearance Is For
> Sissies, or Integrated Headsets Are Stiff Yet Compliant?

[Tim McNamara]

In article <474210ba$0$79880$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
SMS éz‰�ï∂• ⃠<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > They do, since they wouldn't sell any if their frames did not
> > accommodate what their customers want. For many people,
> > Rivendell's frames are not their cups of tea- they want 16 lb bikes
> > with brifters and 10 speed cassettes and CF forks and the like.
> > There are lots of options which accommodate what those folks want.
> > There are few non-custom options for people who like lugs and steel
> > frames and don't find it a handicap if their bike weighs 22 lbs.
> > Rivendell has followed their own muse in this and has been in
> > business for 13 years, has grown steadily, if fairly slowly, and
> > has been profitable for a good few years now.
>
> While they're not lugged, the frames from Surly are also good options
> for those that want steel frames, clearance for fenders, etc. The
> smaller sizes use 26" wheels instead of 700c, which some people may
> prefer, though the tire options are more limited than with 700c.

Decent frames, cheaper than Rivendells, seem to sell well at my friend
Jim's bike shop.

[bfd]

On Nov 19, 2:50 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> Yep. Your needs may be different than my needs. I've ridden a few 650B
> bikes and they are nice. The ride is smoother than any 700C bike I've
> ridden and smoother than my 11 year old Rivendell All-Rounder road bike
> which has 26 x 1.25s on it. But I don't own a 650B bike because the
> bikes I have are reasonably good compromises and the 650B size just
> doesn't offer big enough advantages to me. I've thought about adapting
> the All-Rounder to 650B, though, just to give it a thorough try.- Hide quoted text -
>
What size were the 650B tires did you ride? I have heard that 584x38
size tires pumped up to 40-50psi was the prime size as it was like
riding on "fast marshmellows." In contrast, if your 26" wheels are
only 1.25" or 30/32mm in width, its too small and an apple and oranges
comparison. If you haven't already done so, try a 26x1.5" or 38mm
wide tire and let us know how it compares to 650B in terms of
"smoothness" and "speed."

Alternatively, if you tried a 650B wheel with 30 or 32mm wide tires,
like Jan Heine's new Grand Bois, how did it compare to the 26x1.25
(32mm wide) tires you currently used?

[Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> ...
> Rivendell Bicycle Works was named indirectly after that stuff. It was
> named in homage to a camping gear company named Rivendell that came and
> went years back. Grant apparently admired their products greatly. I am
> actually rather amazed that the Tolkien estate hasn't sent Grant a
> cease-and-desist order from using the various names....

I prefer gene's mangling the name to "Riverdwell".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Nov 19, 4:50 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

> To each their own.

If it could only be thus.

> I have returned to friction downtube shifting on all
> but two bikes: my tandem (no downtube mounts) and my three speed. I
> used Ergo when racing, but there's just no benefits for me now that I
> have graduated to riding my bike for fun, and I like things mechanically
> simple.

I still reach for the dt shifter occasionally, esp. when riding old
routes. However, IME the fiddle factor is about equal between Ergo and
dt, including breaking Simplex springs (although mine didn't!) and
replacing worn-out Ergo ratchet springs. In between fussing
interludes, Ergo has been reliable and the shifting is vastly improved
over dt. But indeed, to each-- and if I had that climate-controlled
barn out back, part of the collection would be dt, no question.

> I get asked all the time when people see my funky tanned hands... but
> what I am asked is "do you play golf?"

I didn't mention that. Not only "play" but "play a whole lot". And
yeah, they are jealous (before knowing the facts, too).

> Rivendell Bicycle Works was named indirectly after that stuff. It was
> named in homage to a camping gear company named Rivendell that came and
> went years back. Grant apparently admired their products greatly. I am
> actually rather amazed that the Tolkien estate hasn't sent Grant a
> cease-and-desist order from using the various names.

OK, but the associations are the "window dressing". A narrow cleft
valley where things are... different. Herringbone backgrounds
abounding <g>. --D-y

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<1dfffc26-fef3-4fcd-97ff-6bd910453433@a28g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
bfd <bfd853@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Nov 19, 2:50 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > Yep. Your needs may be different than my needs. I've