27" wheels...how did they get displaced?

[Michael Baldwin]

What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In other
words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Michael Baldwin writes:

> What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In
> other words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?

For me it was a natural transition because all better bicycle in the
1950-1970 era rode tubulars and as comparable performance clinchers
began invading that field, they had to be compatible with little or no
change in dimensions. I recall switching back and forth between
tubular and clincher wheels, always assuming the were the only size
around... other than steel rim rusty bicycles with 27" wheels.

I think it was a natural transition. I had never heard the term 700
mentioned in that period. It seemed only non bikies talked about
wheel size and the benefits of different sizes.

Jobst Brandt

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:34:47 -0500, MLB5611@webtv.net (Michael
Baldwin) wrote:

>What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In other
>words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?
>
>Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

Dear Mike,

The invention of the cursed pneumatic tire is what led to the modern
small-wheel fad:

http://i18.tinypic.com/4lf9qiv.jpg

With pneumatic tires, both 700c and 27 inch work fine. (Our ancestors
used larger and wider 30 and 32 inch tires, but sizes slowly dropped
to modern levels.)

Bicycle racing faded badly in the U.S. (along with wooden rims), while
Europe became the center of racing and development.

So U.S. racers bought the European 700c equipment and Presta valves.

The European racers had no reason to buy U.S. 27 inch equipment and
Schrader valves. After all, the 27 inch standard was for bicycles
whose primary market was boys riding to school and delivering
newspapers.

From a road-riding point of view, there isn't a dime's worth of
practical difference between a rim diameter of 622 mm and one of 630
mm. The difference is only about 1.3%.

If anything, the slightly larger rim would roll more easily over small
road irregularities, but not enough that you'd notice if you didn't
know the rim size.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[M-gineering]

Michael Baldwin wrote:
> What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In other
> words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?

Same rimdiameter as tubular wheels, meaning that you could swap between
training -clincher-wheels and tubulars without touching the brakes


--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[David L. Johnson]

Michael Baldwin wrote:
> What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In other
> words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?

27" clinchers got associated with the really poor, heavy non hook-bead
tires that were common in the '70s, and the heavy steel rims that were
the staple then as well. Yes, a 27" rim&tire could have been made just
as good as 700c, but it wasn't. The good clinchers were marketed at
those who otherwise would have been riding with tubulars, so were made
the same size as the tubular wheels of the day.



--

David L. Johnson

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not
certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
-- Albert Einstein

[datakoll]

read here:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

Japanese manufacturers developing the Pacfic rim and later China
agreed on standardization(s) in threads, axle widths, BB's...
standardizing rims allowed tire manufacturers to develop one size not
4 or 5. Big costs savings, enough to buy new equipment. And frame's
were tooled for one size rim.
If you calculate the aluminum savings over a large number of
wheels...not inconsiderable.
A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing as
an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance Alworth.
A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.

One day, I went to the cupboard for more 27" Conti TT and there were
no more. Not even in Tumcumcari or Rat, Missouri. The $300 changeover.
But I had called Conti in Kansas 2-3 years prior and Conti said they
had hundreds.
Cool. But the rub was Conti stored the 27" TT. Conti stopped making
the TT 10 years before there were no more.

[John Everett]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:58:16 -0800 (PST), datakoll
<datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

>A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing as
>an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance Alworth.
>A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.

Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
have to do with tire sizing? ;-)


--
jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 22, 12:16 am, M-gineering <ikmotgeens...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
> > What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In other
> > words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?
>
> Same rimdiameter as tubular wheels, meaning that you could swap between
> training -clincher-wheels and tubulars without touching the brakes
>

I think that's it. I recall buying a new Univega "racing bike" in the
late '70s. It came with 700c clincher rims, unusual for the day. The
"feature/benefit" was that you could "train" on the clinchers and
easily switch to tubulars to "race".

[still just me]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 03:59:41 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:

>
>I think that's it. I recall buying a new Univega "racing bike" in the
>late '70s. It came with 700c clincher rims, unusual for the day. The
>"feature/benefit" was that you could "train" on the clinchers and
>easily switch to tubulars to "race".

I think it was because most of the kuel, skinny, high-pressure tires
seemed to be coming through in 700c... fat 27" tires were for geeks...
and even back then, few knew of tubies.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 22, 9:58 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 03:59:41 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >I think that's it. I recall buying a new Univega "racing bike" in the
> >late '70s. It came with 700c clincher rims, unusual for the day. The
> >"feature/benefit" was that you could "train" on the clinchers and
> >easily switch to tubulars to "race".
>
> I think it was because most of the kuel, skinny, high-pressure tires
> seemed to be coming through in 700c... fat 27" tires were for geeks...
> and even back then, few knew of tubies.

IIRC, 27 x 1, etc., tires were more easily available than were 700
x23, etc. back in those days. And racers and racer wannabes cetainly
knew about tubies. The big knock on bikes that came with 27" clichers
was the PIA factor in switching to tubie wheels with their smaller
diameter on "race day".

[A Muzi]

> datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing as
>> an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance Alworth.
>> A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.

John Everett wrote:
> Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
> have to do with tire sizing? ;-)

I see you don't attend the Church of St Gene.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[peter]

On Nov 22, 8:58 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Nov 22, 9:58 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > I think it was because most of the kuel, skinny, high-pressure tires
> > seemed to be coming through in 700c... fat 27" tires were for geeks...
> > and even back then, few knew of tubies.
>
> IIRC, 27 x 1, etc., tires were more easily available than were 700
> x23, etc. back in those days. And racers and racer wannabes cetainly
> knew about tubies. The big knock on bikes that came with 27" clichers
> was the PIA factor in switching to tubie wheels with their smaller
> diameter on "race day".

Agreed. I switched the rims on my bike from tubulars to clinchers
when the Michelen Elan and other narrow tires first came out.
Deliberately chose the Rigida 13-19 rims in the 27" size because there
was better availability of the new tires compared to 700c. An
unexpected plus was that because of the greater rim bed depth of the
clincher style I was able to reuse the spokes when I swapped out the
700c tubular rims for 27" clincher ones.

I had no intention of ever going back to tubulars so the ease of
swapping back and forth using the 700c size wasn't a factor - but it
certainly was for some riders.

[Werehatrack]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:58:29 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> may have said:

>On Nov 22, 9:58 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 03:59:41 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
>>
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I think that's it. I recall buying a new Univega "racing bike" in the
>> >late '70s. It came with 700c clincher rims, unusual for the day. The
>> >"feature/benefit" was that you could "train" on the clinchers and
>> >easily switch to tubulars to "race".
>>
>> I think it was because most of the kuel, skinny, high-pressure tires
>> seemed to be coming through in 700c... fat 27" tires were for geeks...
>> and even back then, few knew of tubies.
>
>IIRC, 27 x 1, etc., tires were more easily available than were 700
>x23, etc. back in those days. And racers and racer wannabes cetainly
>knew about tubies. The big knock on bikes that came with 27" clichers
>was the PIA factor in switching to tubie wheels with their smaller
>diameter on "race day".

ISTR that "long reach" brakes may owe part of their existence to this
issue.

Didn't the 700c also have a perceived advantage in being able to take
higher pressures than the 27"?

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[still just me]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:58:29 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:

>
>IIRC, 27 x 1, etc., tires were more easily available than were 700
>x23, etc. back in those days. And racers and racer wannabes cetainly
>knew about tubies. The big knock on bikes that came with 27" clichers
>was the PIA factor in switching to tubie wheels with their smaller
>diameter on "race day".


Ii the very early days I agree. But, as soon as 700c gained a
foothold, it seemed to be the kuel place to be. 27" was old hat. Even
though the USA hates metric, obviously metric is way kueler than
inches.

[John Everett]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:52 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>> datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing as
>>> an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance Alworth.
>>> A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.
>
>John Everett wrote:
>> Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
>> have to do with tire sizing? ;-)
>
>I see you don't attend the Church of St Gene.

Are they affiliated with the Order of the Perpetual Sorrows?

--
jeverett3<AT>sbcglobal<DOT>net (John V. Everett)

[datakoll]

..
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#isoetrto

Traditional Sizing Systems
The traditional sizing systems are based on a measurement of the
outside diameter of a tire. This would usually be measured in inches
(26", 27", etc.) or millimeters (650, 700, etc.).

Unfortunately, evolution of tires and rims has made these measurements
lose contact with reality.

Here's how it works: Let's start with the 26 x 2.125 size that became
popular on heavyweight "balloon tire" bikes in the late '30's and
still remains common on "beach cruiser" bikes. This size tire is very
close to 26 inches in actual diameter. Some riders, however were
dissatisfied with these tires, and wanted something a bit lighter and
faster. The industry responded by making "middleweight" tires, marked
26 x 1.75 to fit the same rims. Although they are still called "26
inch", these tires are actually 25 5/8", not 26". This same rim size
was adopted by the early pioneers of west-coast "klunkers", and became
the standard for mountain bikes. Due to the appetite of the market,
you can get tires as narrow as 25 mm to fit these rims, so you wind up
with a "26 inch" tire that is more like 24 7/8" in actual diameter!
A second number or letter code would indicate the width of the tire.
(26 x 1.75, 27 x 1 1/4...650B, 700C...)
http://www.etrto.org/
http://www.etrto.org/Pages/tyrefullmembers.htm
http://www.etrto.org/Pages/sous%20dossiers%20publ/sm02MC.htm

[* * Chas]

"Werehatrack" <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote in message
news:9hnck3dpu8627lkmkje7770dg6lnens0al@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:58:29 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> may have said:
>
> >On Nov 22, 9:58 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 03:59:41 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
> >>
> >> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I think that's it. I recall buying a new Univega "racing bike" in
the
> >> >late '70s. It came with 700c clincher rims, unusual for the day. The
> >> >"feature/benefit" was that you could "train" on the clinchers and
> >> >easily switch to tubulars to "race".
> >>
> >> I think it was because most of the kuel, skinny, high-pressure tires
> >> seemed to be coming through in 700c... fat 27" tires were for
geeks...
> >> and even back then, few knew of tubies.
> >
> >IIRC, 27 x 1, etc., tires were more easily available than were 700
> >x23, etc. back in those days. And racers and racer wannabes cetainly
> >knew about tubies. The big knock on bikes that came with 27" clichers
> >was the PIA factor in switching to tubie wheels with their smaller
> >diameter on "race day".
>
> ISTR that "long reach" brakes may owe part of their existence to this
> issue.
>
> Didn't the 700c also have a perceived advantage in being able to take
> higher pressures than the 27"?
>
> --

In the early 1970s 700c clincher wheels, tires and rims were pretty hard
to find in the US. We sold a lot of bikes with sewups and by 1975 we
started importing our clincher model bikes equipped with 700c wheels so
that customers could switch back and forth between clinchers and sewups.

Some riders used IRC High Pressure 27" x 1 1/8" tires at 90-100 PSI.
Michelin brought out their 700x19c and 27"x3/4" Elan tires combined with
Mavic Mod E and Rigida 1322 rims. A number of sewup riders tried them. We
stopped selling Elans because we had so many sidewall failures. The Elan
casings were made of a nylon hairnet like material and they had thick gum
rubber that was what held the tires together.

Wolber introduced the W20 tires with strong fine pitch cotton casings.
That was the beginning of reliable high pressure clinchers.

Chas.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <RLKdnXRHBv9D59vanZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:

> Some riders used IRC High Pressure 27" x 1 1/8" tires at 90-100 PSI.

I remember liking those tires.

In article <RLKdnXRHBv9D59vanZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@comcast.com>,
verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com says...

> Some riders used IRC High Pressure 27" x 1 1/8" tires at 90-100 PSI.

Still have those on my old Condor. Still very good tires to ride on.

--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 23, 9:34 am, John Everett
<jevere...@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:52 -0600, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
> >> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing as
> >>> an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance Alworth.
> >>> A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.
>
> >John Everett wrote:
> >> Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
> >> have to do with tire sizing? ;-)
>
> >I see you don't attend the Church of St Gene.
>
> Are they affiliated with the Order of the Perpetual Sorrows?
>

"Speaking in tongues" is supported in both!

[Tim McNamara]

In article <cmsdk3tj09pegck44doru6d5p211esbc1v@4ax.com>,
John Everett <jeverett3@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:52 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
> >> datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing
> >>> as an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance
> >>> Alworth. A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.
> >
> >John Everett wrote:
> >> Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
> >> have to do with tire sizing? ;-)
> >
> >I see you don't attend the Church of St Gene.
>
> Are they affiliated with the Order of the Perpetual Sorrows?

The Sisters of Our Lady of Perpetual Retribution.

[marika]

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:ed692ce1-cff9-451e-b243-a324e8811fc5@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

> "Speaking in tongues" is supported in both!
>

I think that was junior, not the original "Habitualization devours work,
clothes, furniture, one's wife, and the fear of war. 'If the whole complex
lives of many people go on unconsciously, then such lives are as if they had
never been.' And art exists that one may recover the sensation of life; it
exists to make one feel things, to make the stone stony." --Sklovsky (

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Nov 23, 9:34 am, John Everett
> <jevere...@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:52 -0600, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing as
>>>>> an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance Alworth.
>>>>> A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.
>>> John Everett wrote:
>>>> Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
>>>> have to do with tire sizing? ;-)
>>> I see you don't attend the Church of St Gene.
>>
>> Are they affiliated with the Order of the Perpetual Sorrows?
>>
>
> "Speaking in tongues" is supported in both!
>
I thought Mr. Ed the Grate generally speaks out of a different orifice?

gene (datakoll) is a genius at deliberately mangling the English language.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[* * Chas]

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-27CC00.11305423112007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <cmsdk3tj09pegck44doru6d5p211esbc1v@4ax.com>,
> John Everett <jeverett3@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:52 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>> A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing
> > >>> as an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance
> > >>> Alworth. A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.
> > >
> > >John Everett wrote:
> > >> Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
> > >> have to do with tire sizing? ;-)
> > >
> > >I see you don't attend the Church of St Gene.
> >
> > Are they affiliated with the Order of the Perpetual Sorrows?
>
> The Sisters of Our Lady of Perpetual Retribution.

..... and let's not forget The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

[datakoll]

OK try this

AAA tire maker in Switzerland markets to Swiss
BBB tire maker with rim factory in Italy markets to Italians, North
African and Swiss.
Swiss tires are 50% better.
Both run different sizes. Each size considered the national sizing.
Suggest best way to solve problem for Swiss and North Africans?

[A Muzi]

datakoll wrote:
> OK try this
> AAA tire maker in Switzerland markets to Swiss
> BBB tire maker with rim factory in Italy markets to Italians, North
> African and Swiss.
> Swiss tires are 50% better.
> Both run different sizes. Each size considered the national sizing.
> Suggest best way to solve problem for Swiss and North Africans?

You always want the Italian one. My cousin Luigi says so.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[still just me]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:26:28 -0800 (PST), datakoll
<datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

>OK try this
>
>AAA tire maker in Switzerland markets to Swiss
>BBB tire maker with rim factory in Italy markets to Italians, North
>African and Swiss.
>Swiss tires are 50% better.
>Both run different sizes. Each size considered the national sizing.
>Suggest best way to solve problem for Swiss and North Africans?

Once again the answer is plain: 650B.

[M-gineering]

A Muzi wrote:
> datakoll wrote:
>> OK try this
>> AAA tire maker in Switzerland markets to Swiss
>> BBB tire maker with rim factory in Italy markets to Italians, North
>> African and Swiss.
>> Swiss tires are 50% better.
>> Both run different sizes. Each size considered the national sizing.
>> Suggest best way to solve problem for Swiss and North Africans?
>
> You always want the Italian one. My cousin Luigi says so.

IIRC
export swiss tyre moulding equipment to a another country for cheaper
production
leave all equipment rusting in the open air for years due to a customs
dispute
no more Swiss tyres, problem solved
;)


--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[datakoll]

On Nov 23, 5:41 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> datakoll wrote:
> > OK try this
> > AAA tire maker in Switzerland markets to Swiss
> > BBB tire maker with rim factory in Italy markets to Italians, North
> > African and Swiss.
> > Swiss tires are 50% better.
> > Both run different sizes. Each size considered the national sizing.
> > Suggest best way to solve problem for Swiss and North Africans?
>
> You always want the Italian one. My cousin Luigi says so.
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

and Luigi's 14 brothers in law.

[datakoll]

On Nov 23, 6:20 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 23, 9:34 am, John Everett
> > <jevere...@sbcglobal.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.net> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:43:52 -0600, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> A 700 wheel is also faster, more nimble with an eye toward racing as
> >>>>> an advertizing medium, finding a vehicle in our hero, Lance Alworth.
> >>>>> A 700 frame is faster than a 27" frame.
> >>> John Everett wrote:
> >>>> Okay, I give up. What does a 1960s San Diego Charger wide receiver
> >>>> have to do with tire sizing? ;-)
> >>> I see you don't attend the Church of St Gene.
>
> >> Are they affiliated with the Order of the Perpetual Sorrows?
>
> > "Speaking in tongues" is supported in both!
>
> I thought Mr. Ed the Grate generally speaks out of a different orifice?
>
> gene (datakoll) is a genius at deliberately mangling the English language.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
> differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
> excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

yeah. fall was bountiful. dishonerabbble mention for NYT World Series
Highcoup and AAA Malaprop rating
and whathisname, you don't remember Lance?
Lance would run down the sideline runrunrunrunrunrunr and the QB would
throw the ball toward the horizon upupupupupup the ball would go as
Lance ranranranranran
and the ball would come down into Lances hands for a touchdown.
you hadda be there.

[* * Chas]

"David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu> wrote in message
news:e4udnSdm_71gPtTanZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@ptd.net...
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
> > What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In other
> > words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?
>
> 27" clinchers got associated with the really poor, heavy non hook-bead
> tires that were common in the '70s, and the heavy steel rims that were
> the staple then as well. Yes, a 27" rim&tire could have been made just
> as good as 700c, but it wasn't. The good clinchers were marketed at
> those who otherwise would have been riding with tubulars, so were made
> the same size as the tubular wheels of the day.
>
> David L. Johnson
>

Also there were no US manufactures of high quality bicycle tires. During
the period when the changeover was happening most of the quality tires
were coming from Europe or Japan. Most Japanese made tires at the time
were built to US importer's specs - Specialized, Avocet and so on.

Wasn't 27" a standard in the UK too?

Chas.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <e4udnSdm_71gPtTanZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@ptd.net>,
"David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu> wrote:

> Michael Baldwin wrote:
> > What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In
> > other words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?
>
> 27" clinchers got associated with the really poor, heavy non
> hook-bead tires that were common in the '70s, and the heavy steel
> rims that were the staple then as well. Yes, a 27" rim&tire could
> have been made just as good as 700c, but it wasn't. The good
> clinchers were marketed at those who otherwise would have been riding
> with tubulars, so were made the same size as the tubular wheels of
> the day.

There were some good quality 27" rims and tires, such as the Rigida
1319s and some IRC tires (and other brands), but I think it was too
little too late and the associations you mention had been entrenched in
people's thoughts. Mainly thanks- in the US- to Schwinn's Detroit-like
resistance to new technology and overlooking changes in the market,
selling 40+ pounds behemoths like the Continental and the Varsity. From
a distance it seems like Raleigh had much the same set of problems in
the UK as Schwinn.

Metrification in general seemed to be looming on the horizon around the
same time, too.

[peter]

On Nov 25, 8:34 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu>
wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
> > What factors "bumped" the 27" wheel out of modern existence? In other
> > words, how did the 700C wheel become the "superior" size?
>
> 27" clinchers got associated with the really poor, heavy non hook-bead
> tires that were common in the '70s, and the heavy steel rims that were
> the staple then as well. Yes, a 27" rim&tire could have been made just
> as good as 700c, but it wasn't.

Actually, yes they were. The first narrow clincher was the Michelin
Elan and it was readily available in the 27" size as well as 700c.
Specialized and IRC also quickly came out with narrow clinchers and
theirs were also available in 27". There wasn't any problem at all
getting good quality 27" clinchers during that time in the '70s.
Lightweight aluminum rims were standard on better bikes for much
longer back and were commonly found in the 27" size since tires were
most often that size.

I switched my bike over from tubulars to clinchers when the narrower
tires became available and chose to go with 27" Rigida 13-19 rims
rather than 700c because of the greater availability of the 27"
tires.

> The good clinchers were marketed at
> those who otherwise would have been riding with tubulars, so were made
> the same size as the tubular wheels of the day.

The gradual decline of the 27" size came later, in the early '80s, as
more new bikes were sold using the 700c size and marketed with the
feature that they could accept either tubular or clincher rims/tires
with no need for brake or other adjustments.

[datakoll]

ok, I now understand cyclists are delusional.