OT: The Chinese love the USA! [Archive]

Jay

01-03-1970, 08:21 PM

<r15757@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c0ad47a0-687c-455a-b12a-319265b4c791@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 10:31 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> still just me wrote:
>> > China refuses to let US Warships to dock:
>>
>> >http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/22/hongkong.us.warships.ap/i...
>>
>> Decison later rescinded.
>>
>> p.s. Chinese new warship Shenzen will dock in Japan for a four day visit.
>
> China's real warship is its giant foreign currency reserve.
>
In addition, China has a population of one billion + . And a repressive govt
with a boot firmly on their throats.

But the worst is, China has the US govt blessing, because the US enjoys
cheap Chinese imports.

I had previously hoped that cyclists would want to do what is right. But it
looks like most newsgroup regulars just want cheap bikes, and wash their
hands of the unpleasant details.

J.

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:21 PM

Jay wrote:
> <r15757@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:c0ad47a0-687c-455a-b12a-319265b4c791@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 22, 10:31 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> still just me wrote:
>>>> China refuses to let US Warships to dock:
>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/22/hongkong.us.warships.ap/i...
>>> Decison later rescinded.
>>>
>>> p.s. Chinese new warship Shenzen will dock in Japan for a four day visit.
>> China's real warship is its giant foreign currency reserve.
>>
> In addition, China has a population of one billion + . And a repressive govt
> with a boot firmly on their throats.
>
> But the worst is, China has the US govt blessing, because the US enjoys
> cheap Chinese imports.
>
> I had previously hoped that cyclists would want to do what is right. But it
> looks like most newsgroup regulars just want cheap bikes, and wash their
> hands of the unpleasant details.

Meanwhile, all these people saving money on cheap imported goods are
losing more in wages.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Jay

01-03-1970, 08:21 PM

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fi4n0e$l7s$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> Jay wrote:
>> <r15757@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:c0ad47a0-687c-455a-b12a-319265b4c791@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Nov 22, 10:31 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> still just me wrote:
>>>>> China refuses to let US Warships to dock:
>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/22/hongkong.us.warships.ap/i...
>>>> Decison later rescinded.
>>>>
>>>> p.s. Chinese new warship Shenzen will dock in Japan for a four day
>>>> visit.
>>> China's real warship is its giant foreign currency reserve.
>>>
>> In addition, China has a population of one billion + . And a repressive
>> govt with a boot firmly on their throats.
>>
>> But the worst is, China has the US govt blessing, because the US enjoys
>> cheap Chinese imports.
>>
>> I had previously hoped that cyclists would want to do what is right. But
>> it looks like most newsgroup regulars just want cheap bikes, and wash
>> their hands of the unpleasant details.
>
> Meanwhile, all these people saving money on cheap imported goods are
> losing more in wages.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
You are right Tom,

US manufacturing (historically) has moved from the northern
(pro-labor-union) states, to the southern (anti-labor-union) states, to
off-shore.

As a capitalist, I have no problem with businesses relocating, in search of
low-cost labor.

My issue is with people who think money falls from the sky. In fact, someone
paid.

J.

buzz66

01-03-1970, 08:21 PM

Jay's right the US had better get on with building better ties with
ASIA or risk becoming a regressive nation.

still just me

01-03-1970, 08:21 PM

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:13:23 -0600, "Jay" <jbollyn@gmail.com> wrote:

>You are right Tom,
>
>US manufacturing (historically) has moved from the northern
>(pro-labor-union) states, to the southern (anti-labor-union) states, to
>off-shore.
>
>As a capitalist, I have no problem with businesses relocating, in search of
>low-cost labor.
>
>My issue is with people who think money falls from the sky. In fact, someone
>paid.

Meanwhile they've upped the anti by shipping support/customer service
off shore along with tech development. At the same time, the business
lobby is shooting for unlimited H1B visas so they can import cheap
labor for the jobs they can't send offshore.

Great for CEO's, bad for the country. At the very least, we need to
tax imported labor in the same way we tariff imported hard goods.

marika

01-03-1970, 08:22 PM

"buzz66" <busby@vanuatu.com.vu> wrote in message
news:57949a3d-d86d-4cab-974c-e3e9fb5b8102@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Jay's right the US had better get on with building better ties with
> ASIA or risk becoming a regressive nation.

my fave better tie is the mouse bungee

mk5000

"Anonymously if you like.
Hopefully the reviews will be a little more "in depth" than they are
right now ( you'll see what I mean ).
There are no ADs, or banners, and no shopping cart!!"--rob

Sandy

01-03-1970, 08:22 PM

Dans le message de
news:artoi-5B9F81.12353323112007@news-server.bigpond.net.au,
Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> In article <13kbesghe7o6of9@corp.supernews.com>,
> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> still just me wrote:
>>> China refuses to let US Warships to dock:
>>>
>>> http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/22/hongkong.us.warships.ap/index.ht
>>> ml
>>
>> Decison later rescinded.
>>
>> p.s. Chinese new warship Shenzen will dock in Japan for a four day
>> visit.
>
> What does this have to do with RBT?

Mr Muzi OWNS RBT. He can write as he likes. He writes well, most often.
Scram.
--
Sandy
-
"Our knowledge is a little island in a great ocean of non-knowledge."
- Edward O. Wilson

Bill Sornson

01-03-1970, 08:22 PM

Artoi wrote:

> What does this have to do with RBT?

LOL Whaddya, new?!? LOL

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 08:22 PM

>> still just me wrote:
>>> China refuses to let US Warships to dock:
>>> http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/22/hongkong.us.warships.ap/index.html

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Decison later rescinded.
>> p.s. Chinese new warship Shenzen will dock in Japan for a four day visit.

Artoi wrote:
> What does this have to do with RBT?

gomen nasai
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Bill Sornson

01-03-1970, 08:23 PM

Sandy wrote:
> Dans le message de
> news:artoi-5B9F81.12353323112007@news-server.bigpond.net.au,
> Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>> In article <13kbesghe7o6of9@corp.supernews.com>,
>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> still just me wrote:
>>>> China refuses to let US Warships to dock:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/22/hongkong.us.warships.ap/index.ht
>>>> ml
>>>
>>> Decison later rescinded.
>>>
>>> p.s. Chinese new warship Shenzen will dock in Japan for a four day
>>> visit.
>>
>> What does this have to do with RBT?
>
> Mr Muzi OWNS RBT. He can write as he likes. He writes well, most
> often. Scram.

And, of course, Andrew was NOT the OP of the OTroll.

Bill Sornson

01-03-1970, 08:23 PM

marika wrote:

> my fave better tie is the mouse bungee

POTW!

Ozark Bicycle

01-03-1970, 08:23 PM

On Nov 22, 11:37 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> marika wrote:
> > my fave better tie is the mouse bungee
>
> POTW!

Postings Of The Weird??

datakoll

01-03-1970, 08:25 PM

the chinese military, the chinese government and the chinese financial
development councils are seperate countries manned by seperate kinds
of chinese - you saw the clay statuetes?

often one will demand, the others will que sera

Donald Gillies

01-03-1970, 08:25 PM

The thing about China is, first we import their slave labor into our
high-tech labor markets, and pretty soon when some of them go home,
China will start REALLY competing against our high-tech companies.

Then the Benedict Arnold Polyannas in Corporate America will argue
that to be competitive, we must imitate china in every way ~ their
customs, their lack of business ethics, and pretty soon, their court
system which punishes your relatives if it cannot find the criminal or
a scapegoat needed so that the government "can save face" ...

And at Corporate America's Behest, pretty soon the US government will
have an SS with giant jackboots pressing down on everyone's throats.
All in the name of ... competitiveness ...

It's called Fascism and Corporate America thinks its the new new
thing.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

marika

01-03-1970, 08:25 PM

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:533b0890-9375-4c8a-8a9c-32cce8d0ba0f@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...

>
> Postings Of The Weird??
>

I was watching the emmys one year, i don't know why

i realized that day that David hyde pierce - he's not acting this is what he
is
really like

he should have never won any awards if that wasn't acting
Did Fidel Castro really die today because he is full of plastic pipes that
burst?

mk5000

"I have put a blog on Blogspot. I add a photo from somewhere in Cuba
each day and make a small comment. I have been photographing Cuba for 6
years. I would appreciate any comments-pro or con."--
http://www.ponchosanza.blogspot.com

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 08:25 PM

> "Jay" <jbollyn@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You are right Tom,
>> US manufacturing (historically) has moved from the northern
>> (pro-labor-union) states, to the southern (anti-labor-union) states, to
>> off-shore.
>> As a capitalist, I have no problem with businesses relocating, in search of
>> low-cost labor.
>> My issue is with people who think money falls from the sky. In fact, someone
>> paid.

still just me wrote:
> Meanwhile they've upped the anti by shipping support/customer service
> off shore along with tech development. At the same time, the business
> lobby is shooting for unlimited H1B visas so they can import cheap
> labor for the jobs they can't send offshore.
> Great for CEO's, bad for the country. At the very least, we need to
> tax imported labor in the same way we tariff imported hard goods.

You have a problem with H1B???

I'd take a couple thousand Andy Groves over a few million unskilled and
illiterate if given the choice. Of course we are not give that choice,
but H1B has been 100% positive IMHO.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net

01-03-1970, 08:25 PM

A Muzi wrote:
> still just me wrote:
> > Meanwhile they've upped the anti by shipping support/customer service
> > off shore along with tech development. At the same time, the business
> > lobby is shooting for unlimited H1B visas so they can import cheap
> > labor for the jobs they can't send offshore.
> > Great for CEO's, bad for the country. At the very least, we need to
> > tax imported labor in the same way we tariff imported hard goods.
>
> You have a problem with H1B???
>
> I'd take a couple thousand Andy Groves over a few million unskilled and
> illiterate if given the choice. Of course we are not give that choice,
> but H1B has been 100% positive IMHO.

Probably because H1Bs are not issued to people with the intent of
opening bicycle shops across the street from yours, selling flashy
Italian frames for 60% of the price you charge.

The thing you need to worry about is that eventually there won't be
enough people with enough money to buy your stuff- all they will be
able to afford is Chinese-made that costs a fraction of what yours
does. This is the real shortsightedness of the corporate USA, that the
US economy is powerful because it is based on consumption, and without
wage growth the economy will ultimately stagnate. It has already
happened in a way; the middle class is largely maintaining its
standard of living by borrowing, and now they are in debt up to their
eyeballs. Your average American has been borrowing money to ship over
to China, which now has US currency reserves of over half a trillion
dollars.

H1Bs are just one facet of a very ugly situation- offshoring, H1Bs,
illegal immigration, union busting- that is causing a deterioration in
the living standard of working Americans. It affects all business in
the US, from Walmart down to the little, increasingly rare,
independent shop owner. Walmart can and must absorb the decreased
profits caused by downturns in the economic cycle and decreased
purchasing power, because its business model depends on high
consumption of cheap imported goods sold by poorly compensated "sales
associates". Businesses that don't use this model are drying up and
dying.

still just me

01-03-1970, 08:25 PM

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:37:21 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>still just me wrote:
>> Meanwhile they've upped the anti by shipping support/customer service
>> off shore along with tech development. At the same time, the business
>> lobby is shooting for unlimited H1B visas so they can import cheap
>> labor for the jobs they can't send offshore.
>> Great for CEO's, bad for the country. At the very least, we need to
>> tax imported labor in the same way we tariff imported hard goods.
>
>You have a problem with H1B???
>
>I'd take a couple thousand Andy Groves over a few million unskilled and
>illiterate if given the choice. Of course we are not give that choice,
>but H1B has been 100% positive IMHO.

Obviously you are not working in any of the affected industries and
choose to isolate yourself from the reality of what this is doing. H1B
does not displace "unskilled and illiterate" workers. To suggest so
indicates that you have very little understanding of what jobs are
being filled with H1B's.

H1B displaces highly skilled engineers and hi-tech employees in larger
companies and replaces them with cheaper, non-citizen labor, which is
granted everything but the right to vote. It's only purpose is to
fatten the wallets of CEO's and mega-owners of large corporations.
That's why people like Bill Gates are currently campaigning for
unlimited H1B's. Read some of the stats on how much they save by
importing labor under H1B's. H1B today is corporate greed, pure and
simple.

If you want to import labor then you need to be tariffed just as hard
goods are tariffed. Importing is importing. If there are people with
superior skills who can improve products for US industry, bring them
on... but a level field is the only fair field.

Watch how fast the "imports" fall when they have to pay the same thing
they pay Americans for the labor. There will be precious few with
superior skills that get imported for their talent.

Donald Gillies

01-03-1970, 08:25 PM

A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:

>You have a problem with H1B???

>I'd take a couple thousand Andy Groves over a few million unskilled and
>illiterate if given the choice. Of course we are not give that choice,
>but H1B has been 100% positive IMHO.

Andy Grove did not come into the USA on an H1B visa. The funny thing
about the H1B program is that it's supposed to take foreign skilled
workers and make citizens out of them. But somehow, the top-10
companies employing H1B workers end up firing or getting rid of H1B
employees or shipping them home without ever doing the paperwork to
make them citizens.

What of Sergey Brin, Google founder, he must be an H1B success story,
Right? Wrong. He cannot be an H1B success story. Foreign workers
must be sponsored by large bureaucratic corporations with lawyers on
staff and must pretend to go through the motions to get the worker a
green card. Large Bureaucratic companies like Intel and Microsoft
LOVE H1B visas because it gives them a proprietary supply of slave
labor for 5-7 years that cannot quit or even turn in a poor
performance review without being booted out of the country. Modern
slavery! Sergey Brin was a childhood immigrant, just like Andy
Grove.

Andrew Grove came to the USA with his family (NOT on an H1B visa) in
1956, and graduated from City University of New York in 1960 and later
UC-Berkeley, majoring in Chemistry. And Andry Grove is a hypocrite,
just like Sergey Brin, for pretending that the H1B program brings
workers like him into the USA.

Speaking of chemistry, have you seen so-called consulting companies
like Chemtech that bring thousands of H1B engineers into the USA, send
them on 6-month consulting projects, pay them $35K (about $15k below
market salaries), and then ship 100% of them back home after 12 months??

Great for CEO's, lousy for USA kids who have to pay real $$$ for
college, unlike hippies who got virtually free college educations in
the USA in the 1960's and 1970's. Andy?

It strikes me as modern slavery that American kids pay $100k and up
for a college degree in engineering, whereas nearly all H1B-degreed
workers were given free educations by foreign governments, and free
tickets to work here by the US government, courtesy giant
multinationals who want 6-year indentured slaves. It would make
Abraham Lincoln turn over in his grave!

If you really want to level the playing field and increase US
competitiveness, how about cutting back on H1B visas and scrapping the
R&D tax credit, using the resulting revenue to fund more free
educations for US-born engineers? Why not? Because whiney US
corporations would scream bloody murder and order hitmen to knock of
congressmen voting for such proposals, that's why not...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:29 PM

SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> ...
> The thing you need to worry about is that eventually there won't be
> enough people with enough money to buy your stuff- all they will be
> able to afford is Chinese-made that costs a fraction of what yours
> does. This is the real shortsightedness of the corporate USA, that the
> US economy is powerful because it is based on consumption, and without
> wage growth the economy will ultimately stagnate. It has already
> happened in a way; the middle class is largely maintaining its
> standard of living by borrowing, and now they are in debt up to their
> eyeballs. Your average American has been borrowing money to ship over
> to China, which now has US currency reserves of over half a trillion
> dollars....

The middle classes have always stood in the way of establishing
authoritarian, neo-feudal states. The decline of the middle class is a
good thing from that viewpoint.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

still just me

01-03-1970, 08:29 PM

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:49:44 -0800 (PST),
SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net wrote:

>
>
>A Muzi wrote:

>> You have a problem with H1B???
>> I'd take a couple thousand Andy Groves over a few million unskilled and
>> illiterate if given the choice. Of course we are not give that choice,
>> but H1B has been 100% positive IMHO.

>Probably because H1Bs are not issued to people with the intent of
>opening bicycle shops across the street from yours, selling flashy
>Italian frames for 60% of the price you charge.

Well said.

>The thing you need to worry about is that eventually there won't be
>enough people with enough money to buy your stuff- all they will be
>able to afford is Chinese-made that costs a fraction of what yours
>does. This is the real shortsightedness of the corporate USA, that the
>US economy is powerful because it is based on consumption, and without
>wage growth the economy will ultimately stagnate. It has already
>happened in a way; the middle class is largely maintaining its
>standard of living by borrowing, and now they are in debt up to their
>eyeballs. Your average American has been borrowing money to ship over
>to China, which now has US currency reserves of over half a trillion
>dollars.

And again, well said. Some people don't take a very long range look.

>H1Bs are just one facet of a very ugly situation- offshoring, H1Bs,
>illegal immigration, union busting- that is causing a deterioration in
>the living standard of working Americans.

I'll go with all that except maybe the Union busting. There's fault on
both sides of that issue.

>It affects all business in
>the US, from Walmart down to the little, increasingly rare,
>independent shop owner. Walmart can and must absorb the decreased
>profits caused by downturns in the economic cycle and decreased
>purchasing power, because its business model depends on high
>consumption of cheap imported goods sold by poorly compensated "sales
>associates". Businesses that don't use this model are drying up and
>dying.

I don't think Andy has taken off his rose colored glasses that he's
been wearing for a couple decades. To be fair, he doesn't work in
hi-tech, corporate America's management, or have close tires to what's
going on in the service industries so he doesn't see it yet - he will.

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 08:31 PM

still just me wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:49:44 -0800 (PST),
> SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net wrote:
>
>>
>> A Muzi wrote:
>
>>> You have a problem with H1B???
>>> I'd take a couple thousand Andy Groves over a few million unskilled and
>>> illiterate if given the choice. Of course we are not give that choice,
>>> but H1B has been 100% positive IMHO.
>
>> Probably because H1Bs are not issued to people with the intent of
>> opening bicycle shops across the street from yours, selling flashy
>> Italian frames for 60% of the price you charge.
>
> Well said.
>
>> The thing you need to worry about is that eventually there won't be
>> enough people with enough money to buy your stuff- all they will be
>> able to afford is Chinese-made that costs a fraction of what yours
>> does. This is the real shortsightedness of the corporate USA, that the
>> US economy is powerful because it is based on consumption, and without
>> wage growth the economy will ultimately stagnate. It has already
>> happened in a way; the middle class is largely maintaining its
>> standard of living by borrowing, and now they are in debt up to their
>> eyeballs. Your average American has been borrowing money to ship over
>> to China, which now has US currency reserves of over half a trillion
>> dollars.
>
> And again, well said. Some people don't take a very long range look.
>
>> H1Bs are just one facet of a very ugly situation- offshoring, H1Bs,
>> illegal immigration, union busting- that is causing a deterioration in
>> the living standard of working Americans.
>
> I'll go with all that except maybe the Union busting. There's fault on
> both sides of that issue.
>
>> It affects all business in
>> the US, from Walmart down to the little, increasingly rare,
>> independent shop owner. Walmart can and must absorb the decreased
>> profits caused by downturns in the economic cycle and decreased
>> purchasing power, because its business model depends on high
>> consumption of cheap imported goods sold by poorly compensated "sales
>> associates". Businesses that don't use this model are drying up and
>> dying.
>
> I don't think Andy has taken off his rose colored glasses that he's
> been wearing for a couple decades. To be fair, he doesn't work in
> hi-tech, corporate America's management, or have close tires to what's
> going on in the service industries so he doesn't see it yet - he will.

YGBSM.

Besides outlasting six bike shops in the neighborhood, including my
major supplier opening an outlet store 6 blocks away and two shops in my
own block (!), I'm competing with vendors worldwide now. If you want to
discuss tightening margins in a race to the bottom, I am an expert.

Truly, immigrants are our wealth. The huge diaspora of unskilled
Mexicans is a current and temporary difficult anomaly* but H1B limits
are badly constricted now. You don't read jb and wish for a nice,
educated competent Indian metallurgist? I know two here now!

[* I surely have no magic prescription for a country who can't even
socialize or educate its own children, despite exorbitant expense as to
how one assimilates these huge numbers quickly. Rest assured their
children will be as American as any of us. OK, maybe grandchildren]
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Another mini-me

01-03-1970, 08:31 PM

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 00:38:50 GMT, still just me
<wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:

....
>
>I don't think Andy has taken off his rose colored glasses that he's
>been wearing for a couple decades. To be fair, he doesn't work in
>hi-tech, corporate America's management, or have close tires to what's
>going on in the service industries so he doesn't see it yet - he will.
>

Corporate management is a big part of the problem. They are the ones
doing the H-1B reqs, lining up offshoring, etc. Most of them aren't
that good and wind up being a drain on the company and economy.

Oh, and they don't get laid off unless they are on the "out of favor"
list, no matter how stupid they are or how many mistakes they make.

I used to pooh-pooh the increasing have-have not gap. Sadly it is
true.

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 08:31 PM

>> still just me wrote:
>>> Meanwhile they've upped the anti by shipping support/customer service
>>> off shore along with tech development. At the same time, the business
>>> lobby is shooting for unlimited H1B visas so they can import cheap
>>> labor for the jobs they can't send offshore.
>>> Great for CEO's, bad for the country. At the very least, we need to
>>> tax imported labor in the same way we tariff imported hard goods.

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> You have a problem with H1B???
>> I'd take a couple thousand Andy Groves over a few million unskilled and
>> illiterate if given the choice. Of course we are not give that choice,
>> but H1B has been 100% positive IMHO.

still just me wrote:
> Obviously you are not working in any of the affected industries and
> choose to isolate yourself from the reality of what this is doing. H1B
> does not displace "unskilled and illiterate" workers. To suggest so
> indicates that you have very little understanding of what jobs are
> being filled with H1B's.
>
> H1B displaces highly skilled engineers and hi-tech employees in larger
> companies and replaces them with cheaper, non-citizen labor, which is
> granted everything but the right to vote. It's only purpose is to
> fatten the wallets of CEO's and mega-owners of large corporations.
> That's why people like Bill Gates are currently campaigning for
> unlimited H1B's. Read some of the stats on how much they save by
> importing labor under H1B's. H1B today is corporate greed, pure and
> simple.
>
> If you want to import labor then you need to be tariffed just as hard
> goods are tariffed. Importing is importing. If there are people with
> superior skills who can improve products for US industry, bring them
> on... but a level field is the only fair field.
>
> Watch how fast the "imports" fall when they have to pay the same thing
> they pay Americans for the labor. There will be precious few with
> superior skills that get imported for their talent.

No, I did not conflate those two things, merely contrasted the presently
tight H1B program with the no-rules; doors-open willful blindness at the
southern border.

An American educated Indian PhD-Math can't work here? Whaddaya nuts?
These are exactly who we need more- and annual H1B slots fill in 2
hours! Tossing out a couple thousand educated productive young men while
welcoming tens of millions of hod carriers and dishwashers seems not a
good long-term policy to me.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net

01-03-1970, 08:33 PM

On Nov 25, 2:27 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> Besides outlasting six bike shops in the neighborhood, including my
> major supplier opening an outlet store 6 blocks away and two shops in my
> own block (!), I'm competing with vendors worldwide now. If you want to
> discuss tightening margins in a race to the bottom, I am an expert.

You must be an expert, right, because you are the one who survived.
You occupied a niche that the others couldn't for whatever reason. You
probably think you are really, really good because of that, but in
reality your survival may have turned on the most trivial of things-
some butterfly flapping its wings in Yucatan, or something.

> Truly, immigrants are our wealth. The huge diaspora of unskilled
> Mexicans is a current and temporary difficult anomaly* but H1B limits
> are badly constricted now. You don't read jb and wish for a nice,
> educated competent Indian metallurgist? I know two here now!
>
> [* I surely have no magic prescription for a country who can't even
> socialize or educate its own children, despite exorbitant expense as to
> how one assimilates these huge numbers quickly. Rest assured their
> children will be as American as any of us. OK, maybe grandchildren]

Well, of course they will (and based on my experience I think it is
their children), but it doesn't change the reality of the situation-
the more labor you are able to import that is willing to work for less
than what the rate would be without the imported labor, the less those
of us who are already here will get paid. And that includes the H1Bs
who have already worked their way through the system and earned
citizenship and have kids that are native US citizens.

There is no reason why the H1B program should have been continued at
full blast during the recession following the dotcom bust except that
it was necessary to keep the labor market sufficiently flooded.

Here is a fact: middle class earning power has been essentially flat
for more than 30 years. There is only one conclusion that can be drawn
from this, that the growth of the US economy has not included the
middle class. Somehow, none of the huge wealth created over that time
has been "trickled down" to the middle class. And that is because
their labor is being devalued by corporate USA through whatever means
is necessary so that ALL the wealth can be returned to shareholders.
I'm tellin' ya', you're killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
It's the consumerism of the middle class that has made the US economy
the most powerful in the world for the last thirty years, and when
they can't mortgage anything else, and when they can't get a raise,
it's over.

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:33 PM

Andrew Muzi wrote:
> ...
> Truly, immigrants are our wealth. The huge diaspora of unskilled
> Mexicans is a current and temporary difficult anomaly* but H1B limits
> are badly constricted now. You don't read jb and wish for a nice,
> educated competent Indian metallurgist? I know two here now!...

What about "guest workers" who will not be given a chance to become
citizens, but are merely here because they can be paid less?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

still just me

01-03-1970, 08:33 PM

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:35:37 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>No, I did not conflate those two things, merely contrasted the presently
>tight H1B program with the no-rules; doors-open willful blindness at the
>southern border.

The other door needs tightening too.

>An American educated Indian PhD-Math can't work here? Whaddaya nuts?
>These are exactly who we need more- and annual H1B slots fill in 2
>hours! Tossing out a couple thousand educated productive young men while
>welcoming tens of millions of hod carriers and dishwashers seems not a
>good long-term policy to me.

As I mentioned, if we have a need for people with superior skills to
come expand our knowledge bank then yes - let them in.

However, H1B has been distorted to simply be a way to import cheaper,
off shore, non-citizen labor to replace Americans doing the same jobs.
It's a way to off-shore without even having to make long distance
phone calls. Yet another obscenity being perpetuated on the citizens
of this country.

Luke

01-03-1970, 08:34 PM

In article
<72f56b33-d486-41d3-89cc-7be6cdfa3307@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
<SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net> wrote:

> It's the consumerism of the middle class that has made the US economy
> the most powerful in the world for the last thirty years, and when
> they can't mortgage anything else, and when they can't get a raise,
> it's over.

That would be right about now.

But then all those millions of budding consumers in the Far East are
expected to start emptying their garages, which I suppose they're all
building now, of their cars, which they'll all be buying shortly, and
filling them with all the sh_t presently accumulating dust in ours.

So we can always resort to global garage sales to remedy the current
account deficit.

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 08:34 PM

>A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Besides outlasting six bike shops in the neighborhood, including my
>> major supplier opening an outlet store 6 blocks away and two shops in my
>> own block (!), I'm competing with vendors worldwide now. If you want to
>> discuss tightening margins in a race to the bottom, I am an expert.

SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net wrote:
> You must be an expert, right, because you are the one who survived.
> You occupied a niche that the others couldn't for whatever reason. You
> probably think you are really, really good because of that, but in
> reality your survival may have turned on the most trivial of things-
> some butterfly flapping its wings in Yucatan, or something.
>
>> Truly, immigrants are our wealth. The huge diaspora of unskilled
>> Mexicans is a current and temporary difficult anomaly* but H1B limits
>> are badly constricted now. You don't read jb and wish for a nice,
>> educated competent Indian metallurgist? I know two here now!
>>
>> [* I surely have no magic prescription for a country who can't even
>> socialize or educate its own children, despite exorbitant expense as to
>> how one assimilates these huge numbers quickly. Rest assured their
>> children will be as American as any of us. OK, maybe grandchildren]
>
> Well, of course they will (and based on my experience I think it is
> their children), but it doesn't change the reality of the situation-
> the more labor you are able to import that is willing to work for less
> than what the rate would be without the imported labor, the less those
> of us who are already here will get paid. And that includes the H1Bs
> who have already worked their way through the system and earned
> citizenship and have kids that are native US citizens.
>
> There is no reason why the H1B program should have been continued at
> full blast during the recession following the dotcom bust except that
> it was necessary to keep the labor market sufficiently flooded.
>
> Here is a fact: middle class earning power has been essentially flat
> for more than 30 years. There is only one conclusion that can be drawn
> from this, that the growth of the US economy has not included the
> middle class. Somehow, none of the huge wealth created over that time
> has been "trickled down" to the middle class. And that is because
> their labor is being devalued by corporate USA through whatever means
> is necessary so that ALL the wealth can be returned to shareholders.
> I'm tellin' ya', you're killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
> It's the consumerism of the middle class that has made the US economy
> the most powerful in the world for the last thirty years, and when
> they can't mortgage anything else, and when they can't get a raise,
> it's over.

'We have met the enemy and he is us' [-Pogo]. You do know that those
evil employers are mostly publicly owned and that something like half of
American households hold stock in public companies, right?

p.s. I am surely not a business genius. Chris Horning is a business genius.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:34 PM

SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net who? wrote:
> On Nov 25, 2:27 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Besides outlasting six bike shops in the neighborhood, including my
>> major supplier opening an outlet store 6 blocks away and two shops in my
>> own block (!), I'm competing with vendors worldwide now. If you want to
>> discuss tightening margins in a race to the bottom, I am an expert.
>
> You must be an expert, right, because you are the one who survived.
> You occupied a niche that the others couldn't for whatever reason. You
> probably think you are really, really good because of that, but in
> reality your survival may have turned on the most trivial of things-
> some butterfly flapping its wings in Yucatan, or something....

My hypothesis for Yellow Jersey outlasting the other bike shops in
downtown Madison is the large number of commuters in the area. These
people need their bicycles fixed BOTH properly and promptly, and in my
experience and that of the people I know, Yellow Jersey (aka Muzi and
his minions) does this better than anyone else. Andrew/Yellow Jersey
also makes it a point to sell bicycles that meet the needs of commuters.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:35 PM

Luke wrote:
> In article
> <72f56b33-d486-41d3-89cc-7be6cdfa3307@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> <SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> It's the consumerism of the middle class that has made the US economy
>> the most powerful in the world for the last thirty years, and when
>> they can't mortgage anything else, and when they can't get a raise,
>> it's over.
>
> That would be right about now.

Agreed. I am paid a competitive salary in a professional field, but
lacking affluent parents (e.g. having substantial student loans, no help
in buying a house, etc.), I have not been able to live a middle class
lifestyle. Wages have not dropped much for the "baby boom" generation,
but for those entering the job market out of college in the last decade,
the outlook is not good.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:35 PM

Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> Besides outlasting six bike shops in the neighborhood, including my
>>> major supplier opening an outlet store 6 blocks away and two shops in my
>>> own block (!), I'm competing with vendors worldwide now. If you want to
>>> discuss tightening margins in a race to the bottom, I am an expert.
>
> SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net wrote:
>> You must be an expert, right, because you are the one who survived.
>> You occupied a niche that the others couldn't for whatever reason. You
>> probably think you are really, really good because of that, but in
>> reality your survival may have turned on the most trivial of things-
>> some butterfly flapping its wings in Yucatan, or something.
>>
>>> Truly, immigrants are our wealth. The huge diaspora of unskilled
>>> Mexicans is a current and temporary difficult anomaly* but H1B limits
>>> are badly constricted now. You don't read jb and wish for a nice,
>>> educated competent Indian metallurgist? I know two here now!
>>>
>>> [* I surely have no magic prescription for a country who can't even
>>> socialize or educate its own children, despite exorbitant expense as to
>>> how one assimilates these huge numbers quickly. Rest assured their
>>> children will be as American as any of us. OK, maybe grandchildren]
>>
>> Well, of course they will (and based on my experience I think it is
>> their children), but it doesn't change the reality of the situation-
>> the more labor you are able to import that is willing to work for less
>> than what the rate would be without the imported labor, the less those
>> of us who are already here will get paid. And that includes the H1Bs
>> who have already worked their way through the system and earned
>> citizenship and have kids that are native US citizens.
>>
>> There is no reason why the H1B program should have been continued at
>> full blast during the recession following the dotcom bust except that
>> it was necessary to keep the labor market sufficiently flooded.
>>
>> Here is a fact: middle class earning power has been essentially flat
>> for more than 30 years. There is only one conclusion that can be drawn
>> from this, that the growth of the US economy has not included the
>> middle class. Somehow, none of the huge wealth created over that time
>> has been "trickled down" to the middle class. And that is because
>> their labor is being devalued by corporate USA through whatever means
>> is necessary so that ALL the wealth can be returned to shareholders.
>> I'm tellin' ya', you're killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
>> It's the consumerism of the middle class that has made the US economy
>> the most powerful in the world for the last thirty years, and when
>> they can't mortgage anything else, and when they can't get a raise,
>> it's over.
>
> 'We have met the enemy and he is us' [-Pogo]. You do know that those
> evil employers are mostly publicly owned and that something like half of
> American households hold stock in public companies, right?
>
That is a meaningless statistic - citation of distribution of stock
ownership please.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

A Muzi

01-03-1970, 08:35 PM

> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> ...
>> Truly, immigrants are our wealth. The huge diaspora of unskilled
>> Mexicans is a current and temporary difficult anomaly* but H1B limits
>> are badly constricted now. You don't read jb and wish for a nice,
>> educated competent Indian metallurgist? I know two here now!...

Tom Sherman wrote:
> What about "guest workers" who will not be given a chance to become
> citizens, but are merely here because they can be paid less?

Good plan!!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:35 PM

Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Truly, immigrants are our wealth. The huge diaspora of unskilled
>>> Mexicans is a current and temporary difficult anomaly* but H1B limits
>>> are badly constricted now. You don't read jb and wish for a nice,
>>> educated competent Indian metallurgist? I know two here now!...
>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> What about "guest workers" who will not be given a chance to become
>> citizens, but are merely here because they can be paid less?
>
> Good plan!!

Only from an employer's short term point of view.

Of course, if the goal is to establish a neo-feudal state, then anything
that lowers the income and wealth of the middle class is good.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

still just me

01-03-1970, 08:35 PM

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:00:29 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>Tom Sherman wrote:
>> What about "guest workers" who will not be given a chance to become
>> citizens, but are merely here because they can be paid less?
>
>Good plan!!

You mean the Bush proposal for a permanent rotating door to maintain a
permanent supply of cheap labor?

There are too many issues with that to even consider typing them.

Tom Sherman

01-03-1970, 08:37 PM

Donald Gillies wrote:
> The thing about China is, first we import their slave labor into our
> high-tech labor markets, and pretty soon when some of them go home,
> China will start REALLY competing against our high-tech companies.

Why fund your enemies, train their workers, build their industries?

> Then the Benedict Arnold Polyannas in Corporate America will argue
> that to be competitive, we must imitate china in every way ~ their
> customs, their lack of business ethics, and pretty soon, their court
> system which punishes your relatives if it cannot find the criminal or
> a scapegoat needed so that the government "can save face" ...
>
> And at Corporate America's Behest, pretty soon the US government will
> have an SS with giant jackboots pressing down on everyone's throats.
> All in the name of ... competitiveness ...

Why do you think that half the military was replaced with "private
contractors"? The professional military would be unlikely to use force
to crack down on striking workers or civil disobedients, but would Eric
Prince have any qualms doing so?

> It's called Fascism and Corporate America thinks its the new new
> thing.

Fascism/feudalism are based on the lust of the few to trod upon the
rest. Anyone who thinks that the goal of the entrenched upper classes is
to merely live a life of excess luxury is clueless - that is for
celebrities. Old money has real priorities.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter