What's your favorite jersey for a ride?

[rick@elevengear.us]

I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
ethic?

Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
favorite manufacturer?

Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
why.

Thanks,

-Rick

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 7, 8:49 pm, r...@elevengear.us wrote:
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
> ethic?
>
> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
> favorite manufacturer?
>
> Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
> always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
> why.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rick

I have a number of favorite jerseys (and other pieces of apparel of
course) and they are my favorites for a combination of reasons. My
first concerns are fit and color. Next comes material. I like to match
my bike, or at least have the colors be complimentary in a way. I
don't think it's cool to ride in team kit (unless you are on the
team). I prefer subtle styling, and dislike bland and loud equally. My
favorite manufacturers are Castelli and Giordana.

Joseph

[Pat]

<>
> Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
> always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
> why.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rick

Rick, there is an entire market out there not being served---the overweight
market! I was sort of ragging on a guy who showed up with a navy blue tee
shirt on one ride. I was telling him that we ride so that we can wear
outrageous shirts. He said he'd like to, but, as he weighs 240 #, he
couldn't find a cycling shirt that would fit. And, he does want to fit in
with the group.

Even Pearl Izumi has started to make a "comfort line" for the "average
American" who doesn't want skin tight clothing so that guys who wear a
Medium in everything else don't have to buy an XL in a cycling jersey....

As for me, I enjoy the shirts advertising food. If I could get a Blue Bell
Ice Cream shirt, I would wear it! Or one that had Guinness on the front! We
all look for Texas shirts, and more and more people are wanting to wear
shirts from different countries (although I still can't get used to seeing a
USSR shirt!). One guy wears a jersey from Germany and another wears one
from Spain.

Pat in TX
>

[nmp]

rick wrote:

> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not?

I would never wear clothing that advertises anything - unless I get paid
to wear it. I won't ever get paid to wear such apparel so I won't ever
wear it either. People who pay money to wear such stuff are silly. Just
my opinion. They seem to want to give the impression they are pros when
they are not.

I go cycling more often than not in a plain black, blue or grey jogging
(track) suit. Perhaps not the most aerodynamic, but comfortable and warm
enough anyway. And not an eyesore.

[Claire Petersky]

<rick@elevengear.us> wrote in message
news:97fd5a2e-fb2d-4ce3-a8cb-9c0358d14c4d@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
> ethic?

My favorite jersey is my favorite because of its fit, primarily.
Secondarily, it has a great graphic. Tertially, the ride was one to
remember:(http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.rides/browse_thread/thread/2ac128210f5358a2/147e4e7cf2ad70af?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=RSVP+2004#147e4e7cf2ad70af)

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

[Gooserider]

<rick@elevengear.us> wrote in message
news:97fd5a2e-fb2d-4ce3-a8cb-9c0358d14c4d@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
> ethic?
>
> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
> favorite manufacturer?
>
> Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
> always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
> why.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rick

Depends on the season. I live in Florida so in the summer I wear wicking
fabrics(CoolMax, Lycra, etc) and usually whatever Performance/Nashbar has on
sale. The cheaper the better. In the fall and winter I wear merino wool
short sleeved jerseys and arm warmers.

I can't see wearing team kit any more than I would drive my Honda Element
while wearing a NASCAR fire suit. I'm not a pro racer and it's silly for me
to wear team kit while riding my pannier equipped bike.

[Gary]

Here's mine:
http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the Cuban
flag on it.

<rick@elevengear.us> wrote in message
news:97fd5a2e-fb2d-4ce3-a8cb-9c0358d14c4d@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
> ethic?
>
> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
> favorite manufacturer?
>
> Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
> always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
> why.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rick
>

[Tom Sherman]

rick@elevengear.us wrote:
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special?...

I would much rather ride a bicycle than a Jersey cow - faster, more
comfortable, no droppings. However, the Jersey does a much better job of
producing milk.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Zoot Katz]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:49:05 -0800 (PST), rick@elevengear.us wrote:

>I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
>makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
>patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
>ethic?
>
>Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
>favorite manufacturer?
>
>Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
>always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
>why.
>
It mostly depends on the weather and/or my destination.

Right now my favourite is a long sleeve fleece one in solid black.
It's warm and provides the pockets missing from my rain pants.

My perennial favourite and the one that sees the most use is a
wind-front dayglo fluorescent hot-pink one with long sleeves and a
full zipper. I wear it as a wind breaker or for its pockets. It packs
small so I often carry it along for an extra layer later. One learns
to love the colour when they see its effect on motorists.

I've a genuine retro wool Bianchi team jersey that's been long
cherished and thoroughly worn. I seldom take it out of the drawer
anymore.

The jersey that gets the most offers to purchase off my back was a
$3.00 NOS acrylic knit I thought was wool when I grabbed it from the
Sally Ann without examining it closer. It has a multi-coloured
international stripe that's neither Champion of the World nor
Olympic. It's long-sleeved in a rich medium blue with the stripes on
the collar, cuffs, shoulder and belt line. I know a woman who has the
same jersey in black.

That one and a long sleeved black Sugoi one with a stylised
watermelon graphic are my favourites for post ride partying where
bikey dress is de-rigour.

They all fit tight and have long sleeves.

I also have a bunch of "comfort fit" lycra jerseys with both short
and long sleeves that don't rate. A purple one is emblazoned with
"Campagnolo". Other than that, none of them have anything to read.

The nicest art I've ever seen on a jersey were two different Haida
inspired designs MEC commissioned for a limited edition.

I like your ROA and Doppler Shift jerseys and think the Race Number
Windbreaker is brilliant.

My favourite brand is locally produced: Sugoi.
--
zk

[landotter]

On Dec 7, 1:49 pm, r...@elevengear.us wrote:
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
> ethic?
>
> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
> favorite manufacturer?

I like to wear an old velour house coat from the era of color-bloc
sweaters. That and pink curlers in case I have an accident. However,
I'm pretty safe, as you can hear me coming by the clank of the left
ashtabula crank hitting the kick stand on each rotation.

[John Kane]

On Dec 7, 2:49 pm, r...@elevengear.us wrote:
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey

The one in the Channel Islands?

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

[John Thompson]

On 2007-12-07, rick@elevengear.us <rick@elevengear.us> wrote:

> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey,

The clean one.

> and what makes it special?

It smells better.

--

John (john@os2.dhs.org)

[Larry_Loomis@yahoo.com]

On Dec 7, 2:49 pm, r...@elevengear.us wrote:
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
> ethic?
>
> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
> favorite manufacturer?
>
> Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
> always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
> why.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rick

A regular seersucker shirt with bicycle (baggy) touring shorts. The
seersucker is comfortable and breezy and can be used as regular
clothing at other times.

[marian.rosenberg@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 3:49 am, r...@elevengear.us wrote:
> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
> ethic?

My favorite jersey is a Best Asian Classification Blue Jersey from the
2006 Tour of Hainan Island signed by Li Fuyu of Team China.
Unfortunately, the laundry I go to did a very good job of getting rid
of that funny black stain so the signature really exists only in the
memory of how two of the podium girls engaged the guy guarding the box
of spare jerseys in conversation while I quickly snuck over and
st...err...acquired one. That and the way Li smiled at me when he
signed the jersey.

I like to wear it when I'm racing.

> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
> favorite manufacturer?

It's only cool to ride in team kit if you somehow managed to score the
team kit for free.

My favorite manufacturer is probably ChampSys but I have a bias
regarding anyone I know personally.

> Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
> always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
> why.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rick

[rick@elevengear.us]

Personally I had an old wool "Inoxpran" jersey that I swear every time
I trained in it I seemed to ride faster, climb better. After a few
years it got to small and I gave it to my art school girlfriend at the
time, who looked dynamite in it. I still enjoy riding wool jerseys--
old defunct pro team ones are the best!

-Rick

> I have a number of favorite jerseys (and other pieces of apparel of
> course) and they are my favorites for a combination of reasons. My
> first concerns are fit and color. Next comes material. I like to match
> my bike, or at least have the colors be complimentary in a way. I
> don't think it's cool to ride in team kit (unless you are on the
> team). I prefer subtle styling, and dislike bland and loud equally. My
> favorite manufacturers are Castelli and Giordana.
>
> Joseph

In article <5ru47aF16n716U1@mid.individual.net>, Orion@starrynight.com
says...

> Rick, there is an entire market out there not being served---the overweight
> market! I was sort of ragging on a guy who showed up with a navy blue tee
> shirt on one ride. I was telling him that we ride so that we can wear
> outrageous shirts. He said he'd like to, but, as he weighs 240 #, he
> couldn't find a cycling shirt that would fit. And, he does want to fit in
> with the group.

Try www.kucharik.com for jerseys up to 5XL.

--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

[::dom::]

Pat Wrote:
>
>
> Rick, there is an entire market out there not being served---the
> overweight
> market! I was sort of ragging on a guy who showed up with a navy blue
> tee
> shirt on one ride. I was telling him that we ride so that we can wear
> outrageous shirts. He said he'd like to, but, as he weighs 240 #, he
> couldn't find a cycling shirt that would fit. And, he does want to fit
> in
> with the group.....snip
> Pat in TX

I agree it's VERY hard to find Jerseys and especially bibshorts that
aren't made for racing snakes.


--
::dom::

[Bill Sornson]

Gary top-posted (surprise!):

> Here's mine:
> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
> Cuban flag on it.

Thought I smelled something.

http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

[Gooserider]

"Gary" <gasmiley@castcom.net> wrote in message
news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Here's mine:
> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the Cuban
> flag on it.

Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was a
murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
Fidel Castro jersey?

[Gary]

I knew my jersey would generate some interesting dialogue, but hey, I'm only
wearing it because I looked into my closet and couldn't find my George Bush
or **** Cheney bike jerseys. All you freedom-loving capitalists out there-
now there's an idea- a line of patriotic bike jerseys. I can see it now-
Donald Rumsfeld, Anton Scalia- you could proudly wear these jerseys as you
cycled through France :-)
PS I'll be honest with you- Sometimes I ride to Montreal, but I would never
wear my Che jersey returning back across the US border- I wouldn't want to
risk a long drawn-out search.

"Gary" <gasmiley@castcom.net> wrote in message
news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Here's mine:
> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the Cuban
> flag on it.
>
> <rick@elevengear.us> wrote in message
> news:97fd5a2e-fb2d-4ce3-a8cb-9c0358d14c4d@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> I'm looking for your opinion: What's your favorite jersey, and what
>> makes it special? Is it the fit, the material, the mesage, the colors/
>> patterns? Does it match your bike? your spouse? your mood? your
>> ethic?
>>
>> Do you think it's cool to ride in a team kit or not? Do you have a
>> favorite manufacturer?
>>
>> Full disclosure here: I have my own small cycling apparel company and
>> always enjoy learning more about people's tastes, what they select and
>> why.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Rick
>>
>

[Pat]

"Gary"

So, did you intentionally hijack the thread for a political statement or are
you just clueless?

[Tom Keats]

In article <vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Gary" <gasmiley@castcom.net> writes:
> Here's mine:
> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the Cuban
> flag on it.

I remember posters of Che Guevara, Zapata and
Mao Tse Tung pinned up on people's walls back
in the hippie days.

I always preferred prints of the works of
Chagall, Hogarth, Constable, Daumier,
Rembrandt, Watteau, and Charles M. Schultz.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[rick@elevengear.us]

Another favorite jersey of mine is a "Systeme U" pro team jersey (long
sleeve), the kind as worn by Laurent Fignon and team. At the end of
every ride I find myself however collapsing on the ground before a
gendarme.

-r.

On Dec 7, 8:41 pm, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> Gary top-posted (surprise!):
>
> > Here's mine:
> >http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> > I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
> > Cuban flag on it.
>
> Thought I smelled something.
>
> http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

[Tom Sherman]

Gooserider wrote:
> "Gary" <gasmiley@castcom.net> wrote in message
> news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> Here's mine:
>> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the Cuban
>> flag on it.
>
> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was a
> murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
> Fidel Castro jersey?

The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but
the era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is
coming to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the
failure of World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to
provide economic growth.

How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
"Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
granted to Posada.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

<snipped for clarity/brevity>

> Would you wear a
> Fidel Castro jersey?

If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!

[Gooserider]

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> Gooserider wrote:
>> "Gary" <gasmiley@castcom.net> wrote in message
>> news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>> Here's mine:
>>> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
>>> Cuban
>>> flag on it.
>>
>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>
> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
> growth.
>
> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
> granted to Posada.

To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.

Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
death squads that fit your political agenda?

[Tom Sherman]

Gooserider wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Gooserider wrote:
>>> "Gary" <gasmiley@castcom.net> wrote in message
>>> news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>> Here's mine:
>>>> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
>>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
>>>> Cuban
>>>> flag on it.
>>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
>>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
>> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
>> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
>> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
>> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
>> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
>> growth.
>>
>> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
>> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
>> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
>> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
>> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
>> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
>> granted to Posada.
>
> To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
> I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
> jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>
> Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
> death squads that fit your political agenda?

I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
(hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.

Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
right-wing governments in the region.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Gooserider wrote:
> > "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> >> Gooserider wrote:
> >>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> >>>> Here's mine:
> >>>>http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> >>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
> >>>> Cuban
> >>>> flag on it.
> >>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
> >>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
> >>> Fidel Castro jersey?
> >> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
> >> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
> >> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
> >> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
> >> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
> >> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
> >> growth.
>
> >> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
> >> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
> >> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
> >> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
> >> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
> >> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
> >> granted to Posada.
>
> > To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
> > I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
> > jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>
> > Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
> > death squads that fit your political agenda?
>
> I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
> approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
> average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
> in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
> housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
> provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
> (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>
> Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
> universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
> torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
> right-wing governments in the region.
>

Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
doesn't have to be like that.

Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?

Joseph

[Tom Sherman]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Gooserider wrote:
>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>> Gooserider wrote:
>>>>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>>>> Here's mine:
>>>>>> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
>>>>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
>>>>>> Cuban
>>>>>> flag on it.
>>>>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
>>>>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>>>> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
>>>> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
>>>> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
>>>> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
>>>> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
>>>> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
>>>> growth.
>>>> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
>>>> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
>>>> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
>>>> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
>>>> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
>>>> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
>>>> granted to Posada.
>>> To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
>>> I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
>>> jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>>> Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
>>> death squads that fit your political agenda?
>> I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
>> approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
>> average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
>> in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
>> housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
>> provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
>> (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>>
>> Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
>> universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
>> torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
>> right-wing governments in the region.
>>
>
> Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
> doesn't have to be like that.
>
> Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?

What class was I born into?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 8, 7:55 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Gooserider wrote:
> > > "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> > >> Gooserider wrote:
> > >>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
> > >>>news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> > >>>> Here's mine:
> > >>>>http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> > >>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
> > >>>> Cuban
> > >>>> flag on it.
> > >>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
> > >>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
> > >>> Fidel Castro jersey?
> > >> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
> > >> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
> > >> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
> > >> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
> > >> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
> > >> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
> > >> growth.
>
> > >> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
> > >> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
> > >> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
> > >> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
> > >> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
> > >> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
> > >> granted to Posada.
>
> > > To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
> > > I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
> > > jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>
> > > Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
> > > death squads that fit your political agenda?
>
> > I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
> > approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
> > average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
> > in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
> > housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
> > provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
> > (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>
> > Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
> > universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
> > torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
> > right-wing governments in the region.
>
> Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
> doesn't have to be like that.
>
> Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?
>
>

From what I've been told by more than one adventureous friend, Jamaica
is a very different place once one leaves the "tourist friendly"
areas. "Different" as in grindingly poor, dangerous and chaotic.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 2:59 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Gooserider wrote:
> >>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> >>>> Gooserider wrote:
> >>>>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> >>>>>> Here's mine:
> >>>>>>http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> >>>>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
> >>>>>> Cuban
> >>>>>> flag on it.
> >>>>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
> >>>>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
> >>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
> >>>> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
> >>>> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
> >>>> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
> >>>> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
> >>>> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
> >>>> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
> >>>> growth.
> >>>> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
> >>>> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
> >>>> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
> >>>> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
> >>>> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
> >>>> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
> >>>> granted to Posada.
> >>> To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
> >>> I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
> >>> jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
> >>> Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
> >>> death squads that fit your political agenda?
> >> I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
> >> approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
> >> average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
> >> in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
> >> housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
> >> provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
> >> (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>
> >> Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
> >> universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
> >> torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
> >> right-wing governments in the region.
>
> > Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
> > doesn't have to be like that.
>
> > Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?
>
> What class was I born into?
>

Good point. We'll say uraban laborer in both cases.

Joseph

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Dec 8, 7:55 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Gooserider wrote:
>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>> Gooserider wrote:
>>>>>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>>>>> Here's mine:
>>>>>>> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
>>>>>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
>>>>>>> Cuban
>>>>>>> flag on it.
>>>>>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
>>>>>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
>>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>>>>> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
>>>>> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
>>>>> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
>>>>> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
>>>>> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
>>>>> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
>>>>> growth.
>>>>> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
>>>>> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
>>>>> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
>>>>> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
>>>>> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
>>>>> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
>>>>> granted to Posada.
>>>> To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
>>>> I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
>>>> jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>>>> Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
>>>> death squads that fit your political agenda?
>>> I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
>>> approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
>>> average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
>>> in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
>>> housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
>>> provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
>>> (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>>> Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
>>> universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
>>> torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
>>> right-wing governments in the region.
>> Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
>> doesn't have to be like that.
>>
>> Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?
>>
>>
>
> From what I've been told by more than one adventureous friend, Jamaica
> is a very different place once one leaves the "tourist friendly"
> areas. "Different" as in grindingly poor, dangerous and chaotic.
>
Of course, the USA, "Land of Freedom [TM]" greatly restricts the rights
of its citizens to travel to Cuba to witness the conditions there first
hand.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 3:04 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 7:55 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Gooserider wrote:
> > > > "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> > > >> Gooserider wrote:
> > > >>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
> > > >>>news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> > > >>>> Here's mine:
> > > >>>>http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> > > >>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
> > > >>>> Cuban
> > > >>>> flag on it.
> > > >>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
> > > >>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
> > > >>> Fidel Castro jersey?
> > > >> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
> > > >> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
> > > >> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
> > > >> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
> > > >> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
> > > >> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
> > > >> growth.
>
> > > >> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
> > > >> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
> > > >> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
> > > >> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
> > > >> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
> > > >> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
> > > >> granted to Posada.
>
> > > > To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
> > > > I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
> > > > jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>
> > > > Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
> > > > death squads that fit your political agenda?
>
> > > I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
> > > approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
> > > average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
> > > in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
> > > housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
> > > provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
> > > (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>
> > > Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
> > > universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
> > > torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
> > > right-wing governments in the region.
>
> > Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
> > doesn't have to be like that.
>
> > Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?
>
> From what I've been told by more than one adventureous friend, Jamaica
> is a very different place once one leaves the "tourist friendly"
> areas. "Different" as in grindingly poor, dangerous and chaotic.

No arguments form me on that. I've been to Jamaica with a Jamaican
friend and I've seen some of those outlying areas.

I picked Jamaica because it resembles Cuba in many ways in terms of
poverty, etc. The major difference being that it is a free democratic
country where the citizens are not imprisoned for saying what they
want or reading Usenet. Jamaica has of course many other very
significant problems.

Joseph

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>
>> Would you wear a
>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>
> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>
Wing-nuts? Did not Tullio Campagnolo invent the quick-release about
eight decades ago?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>
> > Would you wear a
> > Fidel Castro jersey?
>
> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!

What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
raft.

Joseph

[Tom Sherman]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2:59 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Gooserider wrote:
>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>> Gooserider wrote:
>>>>>>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>>>>>> Here's mine:
>>>>>>>> http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
>>>>>>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
>>>>>>>> Cuban
>>>>>>>> flag on it.
>>>>>>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
>>>>>>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
>>>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>>>>>> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
>>>>>> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
>>>>>> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
>>>>>> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
>>>>>> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
>>>>>> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
>>>>>> growth.
>>>>>> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
>>>>>> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
>>>>>> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
>>>>>> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
>>>>>> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
>>>>>> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
>>>>>> granted to Posada.
>>>>> To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
>>>>> I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
>>>>> jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>>>>> Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
>>>>> death squads that fit your political agenda?
>>>> I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
>>>> approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
>>>> average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
>>>> in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
>>>> housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
>>>> provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
>>>> (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>>>> Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
>>>> universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
>>>> torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
>>>> right-wing governments in the region.
>>> Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
>>> doesn't have to be like that.
>>> Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?
>> What class was I born into?
>>
>
> Good point. We'll say ur[]ban laborer in both cases.

Cuba, since I would be poor, but the basic necessities would be
provided. In Jamaica, I would not have even that as a member of the
lower class, and there would be little chance of advancement, no matter
what my inherent level of ability was.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Jym Dyer]

> Of course, the USA, "Land of Freedom [TM]" greatly
> restricts the rights of its citizens to travel to Cuba to
> witness the conditions there first hand.

=v= A friend of mine went there and wrote a book about it:
_The_Handsomest_Man_In_Cuba_, by Lynette Chiang.
It's apolitical, yet eye-opening.
<_Jym_>

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 8, 8:18 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 3:04 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 7:55 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 8, 2:30 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Gooserider wrote:
> > > > > "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > >news:fje4sv$q53$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> > > > >> Gooserider wrote:
> > > > >>> "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote in message
> > > > >>>news:vKmdnderVYnWh8fanZ2dnUVZ_saknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> > > > >>>> Here's mine:
> > > > >>>>http://www.crw.org/gallery/images/gary_smiley.jpg
> > > > >>>> I prefer the hard-to-find collector's item. This one has Che and the
> > > > >>>> Cuban
> > > > >>>> flag on it.
> > > > >>> Gee, do you have the Pol Pot/Stalin/Hitler jerseys, also? Che Guevara was
> > > > >>> a murderer. His image is not good among Cuban Americans. Would you wear a
> > > > >>> Fidel Castro jersey?
> > > > >> The prominent "Cuban Americans" are a group of fascists who want to go
> > > > >> back to the old system where they owned everything, and exploited their
> > > > >> fellow Cubans and the point of a a police/soldier held gun. Sorry, but the
> > > > >> era of fascist governments that jump to the wishes of Washington is coming
> > > > >> to an end in Central and South America, in part due to the failure of
> > > > >> World Bank/IMF imposed "neo-liberal" economic policies to provide economic
> > > > >> growth.
>
> > > > >> How many have been murdered by fascist governments in Central and South
> > > > >> America over the last century? Would you wear a Pinochet, Somoza or
> > > > >> Battista jersey? How about jersey featuring right-wing Cuban terrorists
> > > > >> such as Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles or Virgilio Paz Romero? The
> > > > >> "Cuban American" community supports these terrorists, and has actively
> > > > >> campaigned for having a pardon granted to Orlando Bosch and "asylum"
> > > > >> granted to Posada.
>
> > > > > To answer your question---NO, I wouldn't. I wouldn't wear a Pinochet jersey.
> > > > > I wouldn't wear a Marcos jersey. But I wouldn't wear a Che jersey, a Fidel
> > > > > jersey, or a Lenin jersey either.
>
> > > > > Do you support Fidel? Do you support death squads? Or do you only support
> > > > > death squads that fit your political agenda?
>
> > > > I see Fidel Castro as being the lesser of the two evils by far. I do NOT
> > > > approve of authoritarian governments in any form, but the lives of the
> > > > average Cuban are better under Castro than those of lower class people
> > > > in other countries in Central and South America - everybody gets
> > > > housing, medical care and enough to eat. Not even the very rich US
> > > > provides that to all its citizens, but (economically) poor Cuba
> > > > (hindered by US economic sanctions) finds a way.
>
> > > > Certainly, Castro has imprisoned political opponents in violation of
> > > > universal human rights. But that pales in comparison to the death by
> > > > torture and assassination that has been the standard of (US supported)
> > > > right-wing governments in the region.
>
> > > Being the better of two evils isn't that great a claim to fame. It
> > > doesn't have to be like that.
>
> > > Would you rather live in Cuba or Jamaica? Why?
>
> > From what I've been told by more than one adventureous friend, Jamaica
> > is a very different place once one leaves the "tourist friendly"
> > areas. "Different" as in grindingly poor, dangerous and chaotic.
>
> No arguments form me on that. I've been to Jamaica with a Jamaican
> friend and I've seen some of those outlying areas.
>
> I picked Jamaica because it resembles Cuba in many ways in terms of
> poverty, etc.

Yes, similar in poverty. But, US kneejerk "anti-Communist" policy has
deprived Cuba of the kind of tourist revenue that Jamaica takes in. Of
course, in Jamaica, the money makes the rich richer as they exploit
the poor. Would Castro's Cuba do better, more socialist things with
similar revenue? I think it would, but we can't know, can we?



> The major difference being that it is a free democratic
> country where the citizens are not imprisoned for saying what they
> want or reading Usenet. Jamaica has of course many other very
> significant problems.
>
> Joseph

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> > <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>
> > > Would you wear a
> > > Fidel Castro jersey?
>
> > If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>
> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
> raft.
>


IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
Kinda perverse, eh?

[Gooserider]

<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fc3e363b-d564-4a4b-b2ce-7c0156947a0f@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>>
>> > Would you wear a
>> > Fidel Castro jersey?
>>
>> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>
> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
> raft.
>
> Joseph

Lots of those Cubans come to America and become successful. They integrate
themselves into the fabric of US society and become productive citizens and
community leaders. People in Cuba are not free. And that's the bottom line.
If you speak out against Fidel, you run a good chance of never being heard
from again.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 3:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> > > <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>
> > > > Would you wear a
> > > > Fidel Castro jersey?
>
> > > If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>
> > What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
> > Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
> > the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
> > raft.
>
> IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
> policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
> Kinda perverse, eh?

I'm no fan of trade embargos for exactly that reason. I chose Jamaica
and Cuba because they have similar conditions NOW. How they got there
is a different story. Would you rather not have to worry about health
care, or not have to worry about secret police putting you in jail for
lending people books?

No doubt about it the sanctions have made conditions in Cuba worse
than they should be. Without them Cuba would be probably better off
economically than Jamaica. But what if we look at a place like Puerto
Rico that shares a reasonably similar (to a point) history with Cuba.
Are the people in Puerto Rico better off than those in Cuba solely
because of the US embargo? Even if somehow miraculously Cubans were
doing as well as Puerto Ricans, would it still be accapable to have it
be at the cost of being a police state? How bad do things have to be,
where is the line, that distinguishes when it is better to live in a
totalitarian police state with some material comforts that to live in
poor freedom?

I know folks from Poland, Checks, and Russians who escaped back when
it was dangerous to do so. They lived in conditions better than those
in present day Cuba, but still they risked everything to leave to be
free. I also know Africans who lived in conditions way worse than Cuba
who have risked everything to be free. The point being that people in
all sorts of economic situations don't want to be afraid of the police
coming at night.

Joseph

[Tom Sherman]

Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
> I knew my jersey would generate some interesting dialogue, but hey, I'm
> only wearing it because I looked into my closet and couldn't find my
> George Bush or **** Cheney bike jerseys. All you freedom-loving
> capitalists out there- now there's an idea- a line of patriotic bike
> jerseys. I can see it now- Donald Rumsfeld, Anton Scalia- you could
> proudly wear these jerseys as you cycled through France :-)
> PS I'll be honest with you- Sometimes I ride to Montreal, but I would
> never wear my Che jersey returning back across the US border- I wouldn't
> want to risk a long drawn-out search.
>
Do you wear your Che jersey when top posting?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Tom Sherman]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Dec 8, 3:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>
>>
>>
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>>>>> Would you wear a
>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>>>> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>>> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
>>> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
>>> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
>>> raft.
>> IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
>> policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
>> Kinda perverse, eh?
>
> I'm no fan of trade embargos for exactly that reason. I chose Jamaica
> and Cuba because they have similar conditions NOW. How they got there
> is a different story. Would you rather not have to worry about health
> care, or not have to worry about secret police putting you in jail for
> lending people books?
>
> No doubt about it the sanctions have made conditions in Cuba worse
> than they should be. Without them Cuba would be probably better off
> economically than Jamaica. But what if we look at a place like Puerto
> Rico that shares a reasonably similar (to a point) history with Cuba.
> Are the people in Puerto Rico better off than those in Cuba solely
> because of the US embargo? Even if somehow miraculously Cubans were
> doing as well as Puerto Ricans, would it still be accapable to have it
> be at the cost of being a police state? How bad do things have to be,
> where is the line, that distinguishes when it is better to live in a
> totalitarian police state with some material comforts that to live in
> poor freedom?

Living in a US territory, the Puerto Ricans can come to the US legally
for jobs, since they are US citizens. This factor makes other
comparisons invalid.

> I know folks from Poland, Checks, and Russians who escaped back when
> it was dangerous to do so. They lived in conditions better than those
> in present day Cuba, but still they risked everything to leave to be
> free. I also know Africans who lived in conditions way worse than Cuba
> who have risked everything to be free. The point being that people in
> all sorts of economic situations don't want to be afraid of the police
> coming at night.

Are the "Checks" the people who used to be in a combined nation with the
"Balances"?

Did the people in the former Soviet dominated block ever intend to leave
for non-industrialized countries with a poorer standard of living? If
so, it was very rare.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 7:46 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 8, 3:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> >>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >>>> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
> >>>>> Would you wear a
> >>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
> >>>> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
> >>> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
> >>> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
> >>> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
> >>> raft.
> >> IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
> >> policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
> >> Kinda perverse, eh?
>
> > I'm no fan of trade embargos for exactly that reason. I chose Jamaica
> > and Cuba because they have similar conditions NOW. How they got there
> > is a different story. Would you rather not have to worry about health
> > care, or not have to worry about secret police putting you in jail for
> > lending people books?
>
> > No doubt about it the sanctions have made conditions in Cuba worse
> > than they should be. Without them Cuba would be probably better off
> > economically than Jamaica. But what if we look at a place like Puerto
> > Rico that shares a reasonably similar (to a point) history with Cuba.
> > Are the people in Puerto Rico better off than those in Cuba solely
> > because of the US embargo? Even if somehow miraculously Cubans were
> > doing as well as Puerto Ricans, would it still be accapable to have it
> > be at the cost of being a police state? How bad do things have to be,
> > where is the line, that distinguishes when it is better to live in a
> > totalitarian police state with some material comforts that to live in
> > poor freedom?
>
> Living in a US territory, the Puerto Ricans can come to the US legally
> for jobs, since they are US citizens. This factor makes other
> comparisons invalid.

I don't mean to compare Cuba and Puerto Rico directly, I mean more as
a "what if" scenario where Cuba could have developed along the same
lines.

But I don't see why the comparison is invalid? The whole point of the
comparison was just as you point out, that Puerto Ricans enjoy the
ultimate freedom, the chance to leave.

So if Cubans enjoyed everything else the Puerto Ricans enjoy (other
than freedom), would it still be worth it for them to live in a police
state where government informants who don't like their face could have
them put away for making the wrong sort of joke? You said you would
rather live in a police state like that than a free yet poor place
like Jamaica because at least the basics are taken care of. How well
off would you have to be before you started caring it was a police
state?

> > I know folks from Poland, Checks, and Russians who escaped back when
> > it was dangerous to do so. They lived in conditions better than those
> > in present day Cuba, but still they risked everything to leave to be
> > free. I also know Africans who lived in conditions way worse than Cuba
> > who have risked everything to be free. The point being that people in
> > all sorts of economic situations don't want to be afraid of the police
> > coming at night.
>
> Are the "Checks" the people who used to be in a combined nation with the
> "Balances"?

That sounds like a nice place! But actually it was my Czech friends
who had the most harrowing escape involving hiking through sewers and
forests with an infant. Had the baby cried, they would have been
history.

> Did the people in the former Soviet dominated block ever intend to leave
> for non-industrialized countries with a poorer standard of living? If
> so, it was very rare.
>

No, probably not. But those I know who lived in refugee camps said the
Red Cross helped folks fill out applications for asylum or refugee
status. The folks I know said everyone filled out every application
they could from the whole list of countries accepting. They didn't
care where. The obvioulsy had preferences, but anywhere was better
than where they came from. The thing is, countries like Syria funnily
enough weren't on the list of places to apply. All these people live
in the US now, and it was the US that took almost all of them from the
different refugee camps.

Joseph

[Gooserider]

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fjeos3$t2d$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 3:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>>> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>>>>>> Would you wear a
>>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>>>>> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>>>> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
>>>> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
>>>> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
>>>> raft.
>>> IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
>>> policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
>>> Kinda perverse, eh?
>>
>> I'm no fan of trade embargos for exactly that reason. I chose Jamaica
>> and Cuba because they have similar conditions NOW. How they got there
>> is a different story. Would you rather not have to worry about health
>> care, or not have to worry about secret police putting you in jail for
>> lending people books?
>>
>> No doubt about it the sanctions have made conditions in Cuba worse
>> than they should be. Without them Cuba would be probably better off
>> economically than Jamaica. But what if we look at a place like Puerto
>> Rico that shares a reasonably similar (to a point) history with Cuba.
>> Are the people in Puerto Rico better off than those in Cuba solely
>> because of the US embargo? Even if somehow miraculously Cubans were
>> doing as well as Puerto Ricans, would it still be accapable to have it
>> be at the cost of being a police state? How bad do things have to be,
>> where is the line, that distinguishes when it is better to live in a
>> totalitarian police state with some material comforts that to live in
>> poor freedom?
>
> Living in a US territory, the Puerto Ricans can come to the US legally for
> jobs, since they are US citizens. This factor makes other comparisons
> invalid.
>
>> I know folks from Poland, Checks, and Russians who escaped back when
>> it was dangerous to do so. They lived in conditions better than those
>> in present day Cuba, but still they risked everything to leave to be
>> free. I also know Africans who lived in conditions way worse than Cuba
>> who have risked everything to be free. The point being that people in
>> all sorts of economic situations don't want to be afraid of the police
>> coming at night.
>
> Are the "Checks" the people who used to be in a combined nation with the
> "Balances"?
>
> Did the people in the former Soviet dominated block ever intend to leave
> for non-industrialized countries with a poorer standard of living? If so,
> it was very rare.
>
>
No, but they risked everything to leave for countries in which they would be
free. Free to read what they wished, listen to the music they wished, voice
their opinions, VOTE, and live without the fear of the secret police
whisking them away in the middle of the night.

[Ozark Bicycle]

Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!

On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:

<snipped>

[Gary]

What am I doing wrong? Why are you so annoyed by this? What are you- a
member of the top-posting police? The fashion police? The politically
correct police?

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fjeovj$t2d$2@registered.motzarella.org...
> Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>> I knew my jersey would generate some interesting dialogue, but hey, I'm
>> only wearing it because I looked into my closet and couldn't find my
>> George Bush or **** Cheney bike jerseys. All you freedom-loving
>> capitalists out there- now there's an idea- a line of patriotic bike
>> jerseys. I can see it now- Donald Rumsfeld, Anton Scalia- you could
>> proudly wear these jerseys as you cycled through France :-)
>> PS I'll be honest with you- Sometimes I ride to Montreal, but I would
>> never wear my Che jersey returning back across the US border- I wouldn't
>> want to risk a long drawn-out search.
>>
> Do you wear your Che jersey when top posting?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
> differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
> excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!
>
> On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>
> <snipped>

When Ozark is in a hole, he apparently starts digging down to get out. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[landotter]

On Dec 8, 12:57 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!
>
> On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>
> <snipped>

Damn bent riders. Iconoclastic or deeply annoying?

[landotter]

On Dec 8, 12:57 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!
>
> On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>
> <snipped>

Damn bent riders. Iconoclastic or deeply annoying?

[Tom Sherman]

Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
> What am I doing wrong? Why are you so annoyed by this? What are you- a
> member of the top-posting police? The fashion police? The politically
> correct police?

Top-posting to Usenet is either ignorant or rude. Enough said.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 8, 1:03 pm, "Gary" <gasmi...@castcom.net> wrote:
> What am I doing wrong?

Nothing, really, just running afoul of some "rules" imposed by
frustrated busybodies.

> Why are you so annoyed by this?

He's a nit-picking twerp.

> What are you- a
> member of the top-posting police? The fashion police? The politically
> correct police?

By George, you've got it!
>

[Gooserider]

"Gary" <gasmiley@castcom.net> wrote in message
news:4Jidne0MoKX6d8fanZ2dnUVZ_ualnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> What am I doing wrong? Why are you so annoyed by this? What are you- a
> member of the top-posting police? The fashion police? The politically
> correct police?

I dare you to wear your Che jersey in Little Havana or Ybor City. Try
explaining to those Cuban exiles why Che was a good person. Then report
back.

[Tom Sherman]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Dec 8, 7:46 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 8, 3:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>> On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>>>>>>> Would you wear a
>>>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>>>>>> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>>>>> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
>>>>> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
>>>>> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
>>>>> raft.
>>>> IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
>>>> policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
>>>> Kinda perverse, eh?
>>> I'm no fan of trade embargos for exactly that reason. I chose Jamaica
>>> and Cuba because they have similar conditions NOW. How they got there
>>> is a different story. Would you rather not have to worry about health
>>> care, or not have to worry about secret police putting you in jail for
>>> lending people books?
>>> No doubt about it the sanctions have made conditions in Cuba worse
>>> than they should be. Without them Cuba would be probably better off
>>> economically than Jamaica. But what if we look at a place like Puerto
>>> Rico that shares a reasonably similar (to a point) history with Cuba.
>>> Are the people in Puerto Rico better off than those in Cuba solely
>>> because of the US embargo? Even if somehow miraculously Cubans were
>>> doing as well as Puerto Ricans, would it still be accapable to have it
>>> be at the cost of being a police state? How bad do things have to be,
>>> where is the line, that distinguishes when it is better to live in a
>>> totalitarian police state with some material comforts that to live in
>>> poor freedom?
>> Living in a US territory, the Puerto Ricans can come to the US legally
>> for jobs, since they are US citizens. This factor makes other
>> comparisons invalid.
>
> I don't mean to compare Cuba and Puerto Rico directly, I mean more as
> a "what if" scenario where Cuba could have developed along the same
> lines.
>
> But I don't see why the comparison is invalid? The whole point of the
> comparison was just as you point out, that Puerto Ricans enjoy the
> ultimate freedom, the chance to leave.

If you can not see what difference Puerto Rico being a US territory
makes, then this discussion is pointless. That sets Puerto Rico apart
from all the other islands in the region in comparison to Cuba.

> So if Cubans enjoyed everything else the Puerto Ricans enjoy (other
> than freedom), would it still be worth it for them to live in a police
> state where government informants who don't like their face could have
> them put away for making the wrong sort of joke?

Completely hypothetical, unless the Cubans were given citizenship in a
large, wealthy country.

If Battista had remained in power, all but upper class Cubans would live
in BOTH poverty and fear of the police.

> You said you would
> rather live in a police state like that than a free yet poor place
> like Jamaica because at least the basics are taken care of. How well
> off would you have to be before you started caring it was a police
> state?

How free are the people of Jamaica? Most are so trapped by poverty, that
their freedom is hypothetical. You are free to choose which slum to live
in squalor in, and which foreign owned employer to be exploited by. What
choices!

>>> I know folks from Poland, Checks, and Russians who escaped back when
>>> it was dangerous to do so. They lived in conditions better than those
>>> in present day Cuba, but still they risked everything to leave to be
>>> free. I also know Africans who lived in conditions way worse than Cuba
>>> who have risked everything to be free. The point being that people in
>>> all sorts of economic situations don't want to be afraid of the police
>>> coming at night.
>> Are the "Checks" the people who used to be in a combined nation with the
>> "Balances"?
>
> That sounds like a nice place! But actually it was my Czech friends
> who had the most harrowing escape involving hiking through sewers and
> forests with an infant. Had the baby cried, they would have been
> history.
>
>> Did the people in the former Soviet dominated block ever intend to leave
>> for non-industrialized countries with a poorer standard of living? If
>> so, it was very rare.
>>
>
> No, probably not. But those I know who lived in refugee camps said the
> Red Cross helped folks fill out applications for asylum or refugee
> status. The folks I know said everyone filled out every application
> they could from the whole list of countries accepting. They didn't
> care where. The obvioulsy had preferences, but anywhere was better
> than where they came from. The thing is, countries like Syria funnily
> enough weren't on the list of places to apply. All these people live
> in the US now, and it was the US that took almost all of them from the
> different refugee camps.

And all were leaving with the thought of eventually settling in the US
or Western Europe (or Israel in the case of some Jews), no? Going
somewhere else would have just been a detour on the journey.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 8, 1:07 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 12:57 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!
>
> > On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>
> > <snipped>
>
> Damn bent riders. Iconoclastic or deeply annoying?

IMO, "iconoclastic" is not a valid option here. May I suggest
"arrogant" in it's place?

[Tom Sherman]

landotter wrote:
> On Dec 8, 12:57 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!
>>
>> On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>> <snipped>
>
> Damn bent riders. Iconoclastic or deeply annoying?

Why can't we be both?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Tom Sherman]

landotter wrote:
> On Dec 8, 12:57 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!
>>
>> On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>> <snipped>
>
> Damn bent riders. Iconoclastic or deeply annoying?

Swedes below the Mason-Dixon line - repetitive?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Dec 8, 1:07 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 8, 12:57 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>>
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>> Look! the pencil-necked pudpuller is now a NetCop!
>>> On Dec 8, 12:48 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Gary Smiley TOP POSTED:
>>> <snipped>
>> Damn bent riders. Iconoclastic or deeply annoying?
>
> IMO, "iconoclastic" is not a valid option here. May I suggest
> "arrogant" in it's place?

Ozark considers anyone with a technical education to be arrogant.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 8, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 8, 7:46 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
> >>> On Dec 8, 3:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> >>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> >>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> >>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
> >>>>>>> Would you wear a
> >>>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
> >>>>>> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
> >>>>> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
> >>>>> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
> >>>>> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
> >>>>> raft.
> >>>> IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
> >>>> policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
> >>>> Kinda perverse, eh?
> >>> I'm no fan of trade embargos for exactly that reason. I chose Jamaica
> >>> and Cuba because they have similar conditions NOW. How they got there
> >>> is a different story. Would you rather not have to worry about health
> >>> care, or not have to worry about secret police putting you in jail for
> >>> lending people books?
> >>> No doubt about it the sanctions have made conditions in Cuba worse
> >>> than they should be. Without them Cuba would be probably better off
> >>> economically than Jamaica. But what if we look at a place like Puerto
> >>> Rico that shares a reasonably similar (to a point) history with Cuba.
> >>> Are the people in Puerto Rico better off than those in Cuba solely
> >>> because of the US embargo? Even if somehow miraculously Cubans were
> >>> doing as well as Puerto Ricans, would it still be accapable to have it
> >>> be at the cost of being a police state? How bad do things have to be,
> >>> where is the line, that distinguishes when it is better to live in a
> >>> totalitarian police state with some material comforts that to live in
> >>> poor freedom?
> >> Living in a US territory, the Puerto Ricans can come to the US legally
> >> for jobs, since they are US citizens. This factor makes other
> >> comparisons invalid.
>
> > I don't mean to compare Cuba and Puerto Rico directly, I mean more as
> > a "what if" scenario where Cuba could have developed along the same
> > lines.
>
> > But I don't see why the comparison is invalid? The whole point of the
> > comparison was just as you point out, that Puerto Ricans enjoy the
> > ultimate freedom, the chance to leave.
>
> If you can not see what difference Puerto Rico being a US territory
> makes, then this discussion is pointless. That sets Puerto Rico apart
> from all the other islands in the region in comparison to Cuba.

Admittedly it's apples and oranges, but both were Spanish colonies
"liberated" at the same time. Both have somewhat similar demographics,
and a similar basis for an economy. Yes, the fact that Puerto Ricans
are US citizens is a huge difference, but in really all that means is
they can leave, while Cubans can't. Puerto Rico came up because it was
suggested that a large reason for the poverty in Cuba is the US
sanctions. I agree that they are probably a large part of it. So my
question was would the Cuban economy be up to the level of Puerto Rico
if the sanctions were not in place. And if the level didn't reach that
of Puerto Rico, why not? And if it were, was it worth Cuba being a
police state to get there?


> > So if Cubans enjoyed everything else the Puerto Ricans enjoy (other
> > than freedom), would it still be worth it for them to live in a police
> > state where government informants who don't like their face could have
> > them put away for making the wrong sort of joke?
>
> Completely hypothetical, unless the Cubans were given citizenship in a
> large, wealthy country.
>
> If Battista had remained in power, all but upper class Cubans would live
> in BOTH poverty and fear of the police.

Perhaps, and this of course gets back to your original point about
Castro being the lesser of two evils. I'm just not convinced he is the
lesser of the two.

> > You said you would
> > rather live in a police state like that than a free yet poor place
> > like Jamaica because at least the basics are taken care of. How well
> > off would you have to be before you started caring it was a police
> > state?
>
> How free are the people of Jamaica? Most are so trapped by poverty, that
> their freedom is hypothetical. You are free to choose which slum to live
> in squalor in, and which foreign owned employer to be exploited by. What
> choices!

Jamaicans as individuals have the opportunity (however slight it may
be) to advance to any level. Along the way they can say and meet with
whomever they wish. They can read whatever the wish, and have no fear
of government informants. But they live in poverty and rampant crime.
Cubans have no chance for advancement, cannot say or do as they
please, risk imprisonment for reading, and also live in poverty. Pick
your poison.

>
>
> >>> I know folks from Poland, Checks, and Russians who escaped back when
> >>> it was dangerous to do so. They lived in conditions better than those
> >>> in present day Cuba, but still they risked everything to leave to be
> >>> free. I also know Africans who lived in conditions way worse than Cuba
> >>> who have risked everything to be free. The point being that people in
> >>> all sorts of economic situations don't want to be afraid of the police
> >>> coming at night.
> >> Are the "Checks" the people who used to be in a combined nation with the
> >> "Balances"?
>
> > That sounds like a nice place! But actually it was my Czech friends
> > who had the most harrowing escape involving hiking through sewers and
> > forests with an infant. Had the baby cried, they would have been
> > history.
>
> >> Did the people in the former Soviet dominated block ever intend to leave
> >> for non-industrialized countries with a poorer standard of living? If
> >> so, it was very rare.
>
> > No, probably not. But those I know who lived in refugee camps said the
> > Red Cross helped folks fill out applications for asylum or refugee
> > status. The folks I know said everyone filled out every application
> > they could from the whole list of countries accepting. They didn't
> > care where. The obvioulsy had preferences, but anywhere was better
> > than where they came from. The thing is, countries like Syria funnily
> > enough weren't on the list of places to apply. All these people live
> > in the US now, and it was the US that took almost all of them from the
> > different refugee camps.
>
> And all were leaving with the thought of eventually settling in the US
> or Western Europe (or Israel in the case of some Jews), no? Going
> somewhere else would have just been a detour on the journey.
>

They left to to just that, to leave. But once one has forsaken one's
home country to live perpetually as a foreigner to avoid persecution
and fear, why not go someplace that has economic opportunity? The fact
that these folks decided to have their cake and eat it too in no way
means they only left to be able to better their economic situation.
Sure they wanted to better their situation, but what the really wanted
was not to risk being jailed for talking about wanting to better their
situation.

Joseph

[Tom Sherman]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Dec 8, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 8, 7:46 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 8, 3:29 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 8, 8:26 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 8, 3:06 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Dec 8, 3:09 am, "Gooserider" <Gooseri...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <snipped for clarity/brevity>
>>>>>>>>> Would you wear a
>>>>>>>>> Fidel Castro jersey?
>>>>>>>> If it went up the arse of the right wingnuts, you bet I would!
>>>>>>> What about the thousands of Cuban refugees who use rafts to get to
>>>>>>> Florida? It's one thing to be a rich Cuban living in Miami rich since
>>>>>>> the 50's, quite another to be a poor nobody in 2007 on a home-made
>>>>>>> raft.
>>>>>> IMO, those people are fleeing the economic conditions *created by US
>>>>>> policy toward Cuba* for the "promise" of a better life in the US.
>>>>>> Kinda perverse, eh?
>>>>> I'm no fan of trade embargos for exactly that reason. I chose Jamaica
>>>>> and Cuba because they have similar conditions NOW. How they got there
>>>>> is a different story. Would you rather not have to worry about health
>>>>> care, or not have to worry about secret police putting you in jail for
>>>>> lending people books?
>>>>> No doubt about it the sanctions have made conditions in Cuba worse
>>>>> than they should be. Without them Cuba would be probably better off
>>>>> economically than Jamaica. But what if we look at a place like Puerto
>>>>> Rico that shares a reasonably similar (to a point) history with Cuba.
>>>>> Are the people in Puerto Rico better off than those in Cuba solely
>>>>> because of the US embargo? Even if somehow miraculously Cubans were
>>>>> doing as well as Puerto Ricans, would it still be accapable to have it
>>>>> be at the cost of being a police state? How bad do things have to be,
>>>>> where is the line, that distinguishes when it is better to live in a
>>>>> totalitarian police state with some material comforts that to live in
>>>>> poor freedom?
>>>> Living in a US territory, the Puerto Ricans can come to the US legally
>>>> for jobs, since they are US citizens. This factor makes other
>>>> comparisons invalid.
>>> I don't mean to compare Cuba and Puerto Rico directly, I mean more as
>>> a "what if" scenario where Cuba could have developed along the same
>>> lines.
>>> But I don't see why the comparison is invalid? The whole point of the
>>> comparison was just as you point out, that Puerto Ricans enjoy the
>>> ultimate freedom, the chance to leave.
>> If you can not see what difference Puerto Rico being a US territory
>> makes, then this discussion is pointless. That sets Puerto Rico apart
>> from all the other islands in the region in comparison to Cuba.
>
> Admittedly it's apples and oranges, but both were Spanish colonies
> "liberated" at the same time. Both have somewhat similar demographics,
> and a similar basis for an economy. Yes, the fact that Puerto Ricans
> are US citizens is a huge difference, but in really all that means is
> they can leave, while Cubans can't.

No, it means that members of families can freely go to the mainland US,
work at jobs, and send money back to their families. Try sending money
from the US to Cuba, and you will likely end up in prison.

> Puerto Rico came up because it was
> suggested that a large reason for the poverty in Cuba is the US
> sanctions. I agree that they are probably a large part of it. So my
> question was would the Cuban economy be up to the level of Puerto Rico
> if the sanctions were not in place. And if the level didn't reach that
> of Puerto Rico, why not? And if it were, was it worth Cuba being a
> police state to get there?

No and No to the first two questions for reasons already discussed - one
is a US Territory, the other is not.

T