"bicycle-shaped object"

[vey]

http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/wellbeing/story/0,,2226678,00.html

My first, autodidactic lessons in bicycle maintenance were not happy
occasions. One issue, granted, was not having the right tools. Using a
pair of rusty pliers from my dad's motley collection at the back of the
garage, I would try to manipulate the locknut after fitting a new brake
cable. First, I nicely rounded the edges of the nut, which seemed to be
made of a metal only slightly harder than marzipan. Then, since to get a
grip on the nut to tighten it I now had to use all my strength, the bolt
simply sheared off - leaving its broken end snug in the thus completely
unserviceable brake caliper.

The real problem, of course, was not the lack of a full set of
bike-specific spanners, but having a bike with such cheap and
ill-manufactured parts that it defied efforts to maintain it. There is a
reason you see people on crummy bikes riding around with gears and
brakes that don't work, and it's not indigence, slothfulness or
incompetence on their part. These are bikes you cannot mend yourself;
take them into a shop and any self-respecting mechanic will most likely
refuse to fix them too. So you might as well ride your semi-functional
piece of scrap around until it fails completely or - better luck - some
misguided or desperate person steals it and relieves you of the aggravation.

Like as not, untold millions of these hopelessly inadequate
bike-simulacra are filling space in people's sheds, garages and lofts.
Unloved, neglected, no longer working, but too substantial-seeming to
throw out. Britain is not, pace Napoleon, a nation of shopkeepers, but a
nation of crap bicycle-keepers. You think "millions" an exaggeration?
According to the UK industry body the Bicycle Association, we bought
4.5m bikes in 2004 (the last year for which figures are available). How
many of these would you bet on being still roadworthy?

I say "bikes"; in reality, we are talking of the dreaded "bicycle-shaped
object", or BSO. As trade webzine Bikebiz points out, Mintel research in
2001 found that the average price of an adult bicycle was £107 - which,
despite EU anti-dumping rules against cheap Chinese and Vietnamese
imports being in force since 2000, is likely to be as low as £80 now.
Although there is plenty of research that shows how, say, bicycle theft
or the perception that roads are unsafe deters people from cycling, I
have never come across any about how truly trashy hardware puts them
off. Yet I am convinced that the BSO is one of the great menaces of our age.

It would be easy to blame the big chains such as Halfords for inflicting
it on the British public, but that's too easy. For one thing, its
400-plus stores account for only a quarter of the market; independent
bike dealers represent a third - the majority of which sell their fair
share of BSOs. And Halfords' internal franchise Bikehut now stocks
"real" bicycle-shaped bicycles, with high-end brands such as Boardman,
Van Nicholas and Condor.

Who is the culprit, then? Unfortunately, it is us, the consumers. When
we shop for flatscreen TVs, game consoles and MP3 players, we pay
hundreds and rightly expect excellence. But, when we're buying a bike,
somehow our mentality morphs into one that delights in buying a
"bargain" lot of nylon knickers at a street market stall.

Perhaps, all too often, it's because we're buying for our kids and we
figure they won't know the difference. But they soon will. What we need
to remember is that a bicycle is not just for Christmas.

[Pat]

Where you went wrong on your rant is in this sentence:

"These are bikes you cannot mend yourself; take them into a shop and any
self-respecting mechanic will most likely refuse to fix them too. "

That's just rubbish. Bike shops make a lot of money off of fixing these
cheap bikes. They like to see those bikes come through the door.

Pat in TX

[Mark]

Around where I live the only kids bikes for sale are BSOs. It's
recently got worse since now all the BSOs have suspension as well!

M

[Crescentius Vespasianus]

fortunes have been made, trying to make
a diamond out of goats ass.

[Rex Kerr]

vey wrote:
> These are bikes you cannot mend yourself;
> take them into a shop and any self-respecting mechanic will most likely
> refuse to fix them too.

Bike shops should be careful not to alienate customers this way. For
years I rode BSOs because that's what I could afford, and didn't have
access to cheap used bikes because I didn't know anybody who rode 'real
bikes'. I rode a lot too. I'd commute about 15 miles to the University
in the morning and take the bus back. I'd ride about 10 miles around
town a few days per week. Later, when I moved closer to the University,
I'd commute about 15 miles per day to/from work & school. I once even
rode 75 miles wearing cotton shorts and tee shirt and sandals in 100+
degree weather carrying my water in 2L soda bottles in the heavy metal
baskets on the back of my "Roadmaster" bike from WalMart.

Anyhow, all of that said, I did all of my own maintenance. I'd replace
cables now and then, overhaul headset/BB/wheel bearings, replace brake
pads, etc. The thing that'd make me mad was that every time I'd go to a
LBS to buy some bearings I'd get a lecture about how the bike wasn't
maintainable, wasn't good for actual riding, that I shouldn't use the
lithium grease from the auto parts store (but their much more expensive
version instead -- BTW, I STILL use lithium grease from the auto parts
store!!), etc. Sure, it was always out of adjustment (no indexing, so
that mostly meant I was limited to fewer gears), the brakes never worked
well (I wasn't all that fast on knobby tires on a heavy bike anyhow, and
it was mostly flat), etc, it didn't fit well, but it WORKED, and they
WERE cheaper. The only reason I replaced my first BSO was because a car
bent the forks while I was riding it.

Sure, obviously I agree that a person is better off with a good used
bike than a big box BSO, but one should be aware that not everybody has
access to that world and some need an introduction. Sure, it's easier
now with Craigslist, but even then it can be scary to buy used not
knowing what you're getting into! Those bike shops that alienated me
would have been better off trying to mentor me, as it was one such shop
that finally turned me from a POBSO (person on a bike shaped object) to
a cyclist with some very simple mentoring. They gained my loyalty for a
number of years, and I still visit and buy something small every once in
a while when I'm in town.

[Hank Wirtz]

On Dec 13, 3:17 pm, "Pat" <Or...@starrynight.com> wrote:
> Where you went wrong on your rant is in this sentence:
>


Not Vey's rant - it's that of the author of the article linked at the
top of the posting.

[A Muzi]

-snip vey's BSO diatribe-

Pat wrote:
> Where you went wrong on your rant is in this sentence:
> "These are bikes you cannot mend yourself; take them into a shop and any
> self-respecting mechanic will most likely refuse to fix them too. "
> That's just rubbish. Bike shops make a lot of money off of fixing these
> cheap bikes. They like to see those bikes come through the door.

Maybe, but it varies.

There's a shop owner in this area who refuses discount-store BSOs entry
as a group, not even tire changes. Some sell only 'tune-up packages', a
virtual ban for BSOs.

You're right that most shops treat them no differently from any other
bike in for service. Vey could probably cite a counterexample.

Here, we sometimes reconnect brakes or reattach handlebars or unbend
bent gear changers or true-by-knee or similar at no charge, as the lack
of a service charge lowers the emotional level when it breaks again, in
a new and refreshing way, tomorrow.

Much though we span the full gamut of products (and product quality)
here, vey makes a point that the lowest level of current Chinese BSOs
really can be virtually irreparable after a few month's normal use. I'm
wan to assign 'blame' for that, it's just the world we have today. Does
seem odd that $1000 for a television or $400 for a monthly car payment
is generally viewed as 'reasonable', $300 for a bicycle is not. Tourists
are heard often to exclaim in our shop "Look at that! Three Hundred
Dollars for a Bicycle!!!" (we keep those near the front door).
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Ben C]

On 2007-12-13, Pat <Orion@starrynight.com> wrote:
> Where you went wrong on your rant is in this sentence:
>
> "These are bikes you cannot mend yourself; take them into a shop and any
> self-respecting mechanic will most likely refuse to fix them too. "
>
> That's just rubbish. Bike shops make a lot of money off of fixing these
> cheap bikes. They like to see those bikes come through the door.

But many owners won't pay half the price of the bike again to have it
fixed.

The usual procedure is just to carry on riding it. Some gear or other
will probably still turn. Sometimes a few spokes will break in the back
wheel. The more mechanically-minded owner spots that the brake pads have
started rubbing on the now-flailing rim and so disconnects the rear
V-brake noodle, solving the problem.

Some problems are lack of maintenance and mechanical sympathy and not
strictly entirely the fault of the bike. Derailleurs that cheap and
nasty are hard to adjust right, and easily get snagged, particularly if
changing under load, or while backpedalling, and with a well-rusted
chain. When the inevitable happens the thing not to do is stomp on the
pedals in frustration because that bends everything.

Derailleur systems actually have to be quite expensive before they're
even reasonably idiot-proof. The ones on BSOs don't stand a chance with
the people most likely to buy such machines.

[Chalo]

Pat wrote:
>
> Where you went wrong on your rant is in this sentence:
>
> "These are bikes you cannot mend yourself; take them into a shop and any
> self-respecting mechanic will most likely refuse to fix them too. "
>
> That's just rubbish. Bike shops make a lot of money off of fixing these
> cheap bikes. They like to see those bikes come through the door.

I've worked as a mechanic at three different shops; only one of the
three would consent to service BSOs, and then only after explicit
warnings about the cost of the repair compared to the cost of the
bike. Almost always, the bikes in question really needed full
overhauls, but I don't think I ever saw a customer consent to pay the
going rate in order to get one. They opted instead for the minimum
repair that would make their bikes marginally operable again-- which
is very much like what they did when they purchased their bikes new.

To complicate matters, owners of BSOs often stored their bikes outside
in the weather and never lubricated them.

Chalo

[David L. Johnson]

A Muzi wrote:

> seem odd that $1000 for a television or $400 for a monthly car payment
> is generally viewed as 'reasonable', $300 for a bicycle is not.

Wait, I'm confused. $100 for a TV is reasonable, not $1000. Although
even 50 years ago, when my father bought one of the first color sets, he
paid $400.

> Tourists
> are heard often to exclaim in our shop "Look at that! Three Hundred
> Dollars for a Bicycle!!!" (we keep those near the front door).

Now I'm really confused. $300 for a bike is cheap. You want to keep
"tourists" out of your shop, put a $6000 bike by the door. Well, not
too close to the door.

--

David L. Johnson

"What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
What are you on?"
--Lance Armstrong

[A Muzi]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> A Muzi wrote:
>
>> seem odd that $1000 for a television or $400 for a monthly car payment
>> is generally viewed as 'reasonable', $300 for a bicycle is not.
>
> Wait, I'm confused. $100 for a TV is reasonable, not $1000. Although
> even 50 years ago, when my father bought one of the first color sets, he
> paid $400.
>
>> Tourists are heard often to exclaim in our shop "Look at that! Three
>> Hundred Dollars for a Bicycle!!!" (we keep those near the front door).
>
> Now I'm really confused. $300 for a bike is cheap. You want to keep
> "tourists" out of your shop, put a $6000 bike by the door. Well, not
> too close to the door.

In the contect of BSOs, which retail at $50, I meant that a quality bike
for $279 is quite a shocking leap for most people.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Marian]

On Dec 14, 1:17 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
> > A Muzi wrote:
>
> >> seem odd that $1000 for a television or $400 for a monthly car payment
> >> is generally viewed as 'reasonable', $300 for a bicycle is not.
>
> > Wait, I'm confused. $100 for a TV is reasonable, not $1000. Although
> > even 50 years ago, when my father bought one of the first color sets, he
> > paid $400.
>
> >> Tourists are heard often to exclaim in our shop "Look at that! Three
> >> Hundred Dollars for a Bicycle!!!" (we keep those near the front door).
>
> > Now I'm really confused. $300 for a bike is cheap. You want to keep
> > "tourists" out of your shop, put a $6000 bike by the door. Well, not
> > too close to the door.
>
> In the contect of BSOs, which retail at $50, I meant that a quality bike
> for $279 is quite a shocking leap for most people.

My boss is a millionaire.

Not just a millionaire but a multi-millionaire.

In fact, I've got no idea how much money my boss has other than
buckets and buckets of lots of money in whichever currency you feel
like calculating it in.

When I first started working for him he asked me to someday help him
buy a bike. We've never gotten around to doing it because I suggested
he start in the 4000rmb range (about US $500).

I've seen him spend more than that on a single business dinner. His
habit of meetings running over into lunch time and taking the entire
office out to eat means that I've personally eaten more than that on
his dime. With people he wasn't trying to impress who he was taking
out for his idea of cheap food.

But the suggestion that he spend any kind of real money on a bike for
him, his wife, or his kids, has consistently been met with extreme
resistance. I haven't even taken him to the bike shop yet because of
this. Because I've seen the kids' bikes. Rusting in the foyer.
Unrideable. Unrideable before the tires went flat from neglect. The
best of the bunch was 200rmb new. I know that bike. I know that
kid. I spent almost that much on a small gift for that particular kid
before he went back to Germany for school.

He can pick up my bike with one finger and exclaim how light it is.
He brags about my on bike accomplishments more than I do. An integral
part of his worldview of me is "the girl with the bike" and the
version of me that is presented to everyone in business long before I
meet them is "the girl bike racer," "the girl with the friends on Team
China," so much so that not a single one of my Beijing colleagues (who
I had never met before) was the slightest bit surprised to discover I
had taken my bike with me on a business trip 'just in case'.

I can get him into a meeting with a team to discuss a potential
sponsorship deal but I can't convince him that if he wants to start
exercising and wants to own a bike he has to start with something
that, at a bare minimum, costs more than the lunch buffet at the
Sheraton.

-M

[Tom Sherman]

Andrew Muzi wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>
>>> seem odd that $1000 for a television or $400 for a monthly car
>>> payment is generally viewed as 'reasonable', $300 for a bicycle is not.
>>
>> Wait, I'm confused. $100 for a TV is reasonable, not $1000. Although
>> even 50 years ago, when my father bought one of the first color sets,
>> he paid $400.
>>
>>> Tourists are heard often to exclaim in our shop "Look at that! Three
>>> Hundred Dollars for a Bicycle!!!" (we keep those near the front door).
>>
>> Now I'm really confused. $300 for a bike is cheap. You want to keep
>> "tourists" out of your shop, put a $6000 bike by the door. Well, not
>> too close to the door.
>
> In the contect of BSOs, which retail at $50, I meant that a quality bike
> for $279 is quite a shocking leap for most people.

I think one month net wage is a reasonable price to pay for a excellent
bicycle, two weeks net wages for a merely good bicycle, and one week net
wage for an adequate bicycle.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Crescentius Vespasianus]

A Muzi wrote:
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>> A Muzi wrote:
>>
>>> seem odd that $1000 for a television or $400 for a monthly car
>>> payment is generally viewed as 'reasonable', $300 for a bicycle is not.
>>
>> Wait, I'm confused. $100 for a TV is reasonable, not $1000. Although
>> even 50 years ago, when my father bought one of the first color sets,
>> he paid $400.
>>
>>> Tourists are heard often to exclaim in our shop "Look at that! Three
>>> Hundred Dollars for a Bicycle!!!" (we keep those near the front door).
>>
>> Now I'm really confused. $300 for a bike is cheap. You want to keep
>> "tourists" out of your shop, put a $6000 bike by the door. Well, not
>> too close to the door.
>
> In the contect of BSOs, which retail at $50, I meant that a quality bike
> for $279 is quite a shocking leap for most people.
==========
That's why anyone shouldn't be surprised
to find out that a thief will try to
sell a Madone for a $100. In the
thief's mind, a bike at the max would
only cost $300.

[Pat]

>>
>> "These are bikes you cannot mend yourself; take them into a shop and any
>> self-respecting mechanic will most likely refuse to fix them too. "
>>
>> That's just rubbish. Bike shops make a lot of money off of fixing these
>> cheap bikes. They like to see those bikes come through the door.
>
> But many owners won't pay half the price of the bike again to have it
> fixed.

Yeah, you're right about the owners of the bike. But, he is was going with
one of those "I had no choice!" statements that I spot as the easy excuse
for people who don't want to take any responsibility by blaming things on
some "self-respecting mechanic".

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <nhj4m3thsaiihp77ea1a9bej4dufnlf2t6@4ax.com>,
Mark <i@getlotsofspamthankstoplus.net> wrote:

> Around where I live the only kids bikes for sale are BSOs. It's
> recently got worse since now all the BSOs have suspension as well!
>
> M

The best antidote for that is probably the BMX, for kids young enough to
stand 'em. The next best thing is to find the shortest 40 year-old in
your neighborhood, and ask if they have a mountain bike in their garage
that is at least 15 years old. That puts you squarely into the rigid (or
at worst, front suspension) era.

The situation is dire enough that when a clubmate's cycling-crazed
youngster started demanding a road bike, the only solution was to take a
20" kids MTB, add a rigid fork, and turn it into the tiniest cyclocross
bike ever, complete with brifters.

Tough bikes for aggro kids,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Dec 14, 5:36 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> In article <nhj4m3thsaiihp77ea1a9bej4dufnlf...@4ax.com>,
>
> Mark <i...@getlotsofspamthankstoplus.net> wrote:
> > Around where I live the only kids bikes for sale are BSOs. It's
> > recently got worse since now all the BSOs have suspension as well!
>
> > M
>
> The best antidote for that is probably the BMX, for kids young enough to
> stand 'em. The next best thing is to find the shortest 40 year-old in
> your neighborhood, and ask if they have a mountain bike in their garage
> that is at least 15 years old. That puts you squarely into the rigid (or
> at worst, front suspension) era.
>
> The situation is dire enough that when a clubmate's cycling-crazed
> youngster started demanding a road bike, the only solution was to take a
> 20" kids MTB, add a rigid fork, and turn it into the tiniest cyclocross
> bike ever, complete with brifters.
>
> Tough bikes for aggro kids,
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
> Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

Wow. I have not paid attention in a while, but last time I looked
there were real kids bikes at the bike shops. The problem is that
they had 3 digit price tags, so most parents I know went to Wal-Mart
where "the same damn thing" costs $35. My best friends older son is
almost bike age, I'll have to see what the deal is. He's a hardcore
BMXer, though not really riding much anymore, so he won't want a BST
for his kid.

I recently rescued a bike from the trash in my parents area, a child's
pink Diamond Back, and gave it to one of the less fortunate kids on my
street. When I was tuning it up before I gave it away, I noticed the
bike shop sticker. The bike came from Two For The Road in Georgetown,
MA - My LBS growing up until they went out of business in the 90's.
Total nostalgia. Anyway, the bike was still going strong last time I
saw it, though it's currently under almost a foot of snow and will
likely sit until next spring. I hope the kid doesn't trash it when
she gets a shiny new BST for xmas or in the spring, but she probably
will. Damn shame, it's a nice bike for a kids bike, and until I have
it to them it was always garaged. Now it's covered in snow. Sad,
really.

The kids have no idea to take care of their things, or earn things, no
concept of value. Everything is handed to them, and everything is
handed to their parents, their primary roll model. Nothing is their
fault, they're always the victim, etc. I work 45 Hours a week, and
the kids all think it's "insane" and "crazy" that I "work all the
time". They also think it's "nuts" that we actually bought our house,
and as such have no landlord. In their world you stay at home, slack
off, maybe go to school or work a part-time job that brings in minimal
extra cash, and everything takes care of itself. The homeowners next
doors to us, one of the few in the area, have also been deemed insane
because they both work full time too. Apparently sometime when I
wasn't looking working for a living went out of style. Hm... whole
'nother rant here...

[Peter Howard]

<DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:35ec6162-80f7-4ce4-9634-b0a2aad65a92@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 14, 5:36 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>> In article <nhj4m3thsaiihp77ea1a9bej4dufnlf...@4ax.com>,
>>
>> Mark <i...@getlotsofspamthankstoplus.net> wrote:
>> > Around where I live the only kids bikes for sale are BSOs. It's
>> > recently got worse since now all the BSOs have suspension as well!
>>
>> > M
>>
>> The best antidote for that is probably the BMX, for kids young enough to
>> stand 'em. The next best thing is to find the shortest 40 year-old in
>> your neighborhood, and ask if they have a mountain bike in their garage
>> that is at least 15 years old. That puts you squarely into the rigid (or
>> at worst, front suspension) era.
>>
>> The situation is dire enough that when a clubmate's cycling-crazed
>> youngster started demanding a road bike, the only solution was to take a
>> 20" kids MTB, add a rigid fork, and turn it into the tiniest cyclocross
>> bike ever, complete with brifters.
>>
>> Tough bikes for aggro kids,
>>
>> --
>> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
>> "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
>> Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing
>
> Wow. I have not paid attention in a while, but last time I looked
> there were real kids bikes at the bike shops. The problem is that
> they had 3 digit price tags, so most parents I know went to Wal-Mart
> where "the same damn thing" costs $35. My best friends older son is
> almost bike age, I'll have to see what the deal is. He's a hardcore
> BMXer, though not really riding much anymore, so he won't want a BST
> for his kid.
>
> I recently rescued a bike from the trash in my parents area, a child's
> pink Diamond Back, and gave it to one of the less fortunate kids on my
> street. When I was tuning it up before I gave it away, I noticed the
> bike shop sticker. The bike came from Two For The Road in Georgetown,
> MA - My LBS growing up until they went out of business in the 90's.
> Total nostalgia. Anyway, the bike was still going strong last time I
> saw it, though it's currently under almost a foot of snow and will
> likely sit until next spring. I hope the kid doesn't trash it when
> she gets a shiny new BST for xmas or in the spring, but she probably
> will. Damn shame, it's a nice bike for a kids bike, and until I have
> it to them it was always garaged. Now it's covered in snow. Sad,
> really.
>
> The kids have no idea to take care of their things, or earn things, no
> concept of value. Everything is handed to them, and everything is
> handed to their parents, their primary roll model. Nothing is their
> fault, they're always the victim, etc. I work 45 Hours a week, and
> the kids all think it's "insane" and "crazy" that I "work all the
> time". They also think it's "nuts" that we actually bought our house,
> and as such have no landlord. In their world you stay at home, slack
> off, maybe go to school or work a part-time job that brings in minimal
> extra cash, and everything takes care of itself. The homeowners next
> doors to us, one of the few in the area, have also been deemed insane
> because they both work full time too. Apparently sometime when I
> wasn't looking working for a living went out of style. Hm... whole
> 'nother rant here...

While we're on the topic of "why can't they be like we were, perfect in
every way" I must relate my own experience of kids and bikes. The 14 year
old son of a good friend who lives across the road was very impressed by my
Greenspeed GT3 trike. I don't use it much because a medical condition I
thought would make an upright difficult for long rides improved outa sight.
I offered this kid a deal. He gets to ride it on weekends and at the end of
twelve months it becomes his if he submits to me one weekly book report of
300 words or an essay of similar length on a topic set by me. Additionally,
he must attend a monthly bike repair and maintenance class run by me.
This deal was rejected so he mustn't like the Greenspeed that much after
all. I'd have thought that fifty book reports at twenty cents a word was
outstanding pay. At the end of twelve months he could have sold the
Greenspeed and bought a whole ****load of mindless and repetitive video
games but his idea of deferred gratification seems to be getting something
in ten minutes time rather than instantly.
A little while ago, his BSO had a mangled chainwheel and I had to stand over
him with a whip and force him to fit a much better quality used crankset
(supplied by me) himself. He somehow expected that I'd do it for him in
thirty seconds and then let him take it away with bolts untorqued and
shifting unadjusted and unlubed. No patience, no concept of finding out how
things are done and doing it right.

Anyway, I tried.

Peter H

[Tom Sherman]

DanKMTB@gmail.com aka Dan K? wrote:
> ...
> The kids have no idea to take care of their things, or earn things, no
> concept of value. Everything is handed to them, and everything is
> handed to their parents, their primary rol[e] model. Nothing is their
> fault, they're always the victim, etc.

This is why people should grow up poor. Poverty build character.

If the kids knew that if they lost a toy, clothing or other item of
value to them due to carelessness, it would not get replaced, they would
not be such spoiled brats.

> I work 45 Hours a week, and
> the kids all think it's "insane" and "crazy" that I "work all the
> time".

Why do you only work part-time?

> They also think it's "nuts" that we actually bought our house,
> and as such have no landlord. In their world you stay at home, slack
> off, maybe go to school or work a part-time job that brings in minimal
> extra cash, and everything takes care of itself.

A great argument for inheritance taxes!

> The homeowners next
> doors to us, one of the few in the area, have also been deemed insane
> because they both work full time too. Apparently sometime when I
> wasn't looking working for a living went out of style. Hm... whole
> 'nother rant here...

A stint in a labor camp would do these people a world of good.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[vey]

Peter Howard wrote:

> Anyway, I tried.

I don't waste my time with kids anymore. They know everything, so why
bother?

[Tom Sherman]

Peter Howard wrote:
>
> While we're on the topic of "why can't they be like we were, perfect in
> every way" I must relate my own experience of kids and bikes. The 14 year
> old son of a good friend who lives across the road was very impressed by my
> Greenspeed GT3 trike. I don't use it much because a medical condition I
> thought would make an upright difficult for long rides improved outa sight.
> I offered this kid a deal. He gets to ride it on weekends and at the end of
> twelve months it becomes his if he submits to me one weekly book report of
> 300 words or an essay of similar length on a topic set by me. Additionally,
> he must attend a monthly bike repair and maintenance class run by me.
> This deal was rejected so he mustn't like the Greenspeed that much after
> all. I'd have thought that fifty book reports at twenty cents a word was
> outstanding pay. At the end of twelve months he could have sold the
> Greenspeed and bought a whole ****load of mindless and repetitive video
> games but his idea of deferred gratification seems to be getting something
> in ten minutes time rather than instantly....

Is this deal still available? If so, what books do I need to read and
report on?

I had to work 160 hours to earn enough money to buy my trike [1].

[1] <http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2287/1940446684_1a8852b1ed.jpg?v=0>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Donald Gillies]

"Peter Howard" <bbrover109@bbbigpond.net.au> writes:

>I'd have thought that fifty book reports at twenty cents a word was
>outstanding pay.

I think the kid is a little saavy and knows that the bike is not worth
$3,000, if it ever was. Probably, its worth half of what you paid for
it, new. By your own calculation, that's only 10c/word.

Also, 52 book reports x 300 words is a lot to ask of anyone. It's
probably 3x what is asked of him by any given school teacher in any
given school year! If he bails out after 20 book reports, he has
nothing!!

If you asked for 15 book reports of 1000 words each, you might have
gotten some traction ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

[Donald Gillies]

I have to admit, my first bike was a hand-me-down (age 5), second bike
was a gift (birthday, 7), third bike was a gift (2nd bike no good, age
8), 4th bike was a purchase (age 10, $60 {12x birthday/xmas presents}
+ $30 parental subsidy), and the 5th bike, I bought it with my job
(age 16), it cost me 80 hours of computer programming.

52 book reports x 300 words, if the books are long or difficult at all
to read, could easily be 200-400 hours of work! What a bad deal!
With 200-400 hours of free time, a competant 16-year old boy might
score 3-4 high maintenance girlfriends, captain a swim team, or
something even better !! No bike, trike, or even videogame can
compete with that ... :-) :-) Opportunity cost, you know ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

[Jay Beattie]

On Dec 14, 3:48 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
> Peter Howard wrote:
> > Anyway, I tried.
>
> I don't waste my time with kids anymore. They know everything, so why
> bother?

Tell him that the bike is actually a game controller. If he becomes a
level-five mechanic, he will get to battle cog-dor for the golden
grease tube. Show him the secret controller moves (call them
"cheats") -- lubing the chain, tightening a crank bolt, etc. Turn the
garage lights on and off -- honk the car horn. That will get him
interested. -- Jay Beattie.

[vey]

Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Dec 14, 3:48 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
>> Peter Howard wrote:
>>> Anyway, I tried.
>> I don't waste my time with kids anymore. They know everything, so why
>> bother?
>
> Tell him that the bike is actually a game controller. If he becomes a
> level-five mechanic, he will get to battle cog-dor for the golden
> grease tube. Show him the secret controller moves (call them
> "cheats") -- lubing the chain, tightening a crank bolt, etc. Turn the
> garage lights on and off -- honk the car horn. That will get him
> interested. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay, you've got the imagination thing down.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <fjvb04$qg2$1@news.datemas.de>, vey <junker@ericvey.com>
wrote:

> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > On Dec 14, 3:48 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
> >> Peter Howard wrote:
> >>> Anyway, I tried.
> >> I don't waste my time with kids anymore. They know everything, so why
> >> bother?
> >
> > Tell him that the bike is actually a game controller. If he becomes a
> > level-five mechanic, he will get to battle cog-dor for the golden
> > grease tube. Show him the secret controller moves (call them
> > "cheats") -- lubing the chain, tightening a crank bolt, etc. Turn the
> > garage lights on and off -- honk the car horn. That will get him
> > interested. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Jay, you've got the imagination thing down.

Heh. Some kids are mechanical nerds, and some are not.

My father was aggressively mechanically oriented, both professionally
and personally. He had three boys:

The oldest (me) is an creative bodger, who has messed with everything
from motorcycle valve adjustments to reattaching the driver's door to my
New Beetle. I mess with bicycles (but not welding) quite aggressively,
and am a computer nerd and problem-solver by trade. I like working with
my hands.

The middle one has a deft touch with piloting any motor vehicle, from
forklifts to motorboats. He has never shown any substantial interest in
getting his hands dirty at a workbench. He manages the receiving dock
for a big-box hardware store.

The youngest one is aggressively mechanically oriented. His projects
have included resurrecting a van with an engine transplant and a few
custom cruiser bikes, and his day job is rebuilding bicycle suspension
components (warranty and requested work) for a national distributor.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem if a kid wants to just ride a
bike without learning how to maintain it. There's such a thing as
priorities and talents, and lots of people (possibly including me)
should not do their own bike maintenance.

I would consider lubing a chain and changing a tire basic maintenance
that I would try to teach to any child who had a bicycle. Installing a
new crankset properly is something that won't come up much for most
riders, and while it isn't particularly hard, I don't think most kids
have easy access to a crank extraction tool.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

[Peter Howard]

"Donald Gillies" <gillies@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:fjvvii$ea4$1@cascade.cs.ubc.ca...
> "Peter Howard" <bbrover109@bbbigpond.net.au> writes:
>
>>I'd have thought that fifty book reports at twenty cents a word was
>>outstanding pay.
>
> I think the kid is a little saavy and knows that the bike is not worth
> $3,000, if it ever was. Probably, its worth half of what you paid for
> it, new. By your own calculation, that's only 10c/word.

Reminds me of a time in my life when I was building stitch 'n glue plywood
dinghys to order for use as yacht tenders. Lookers would come and say "Why,
I can get one of those for half the price in Sydney/Melbourne/Perth." I'd
say "Great! Can you pick me up half a dozen next time you're down there?"
This is Australia, where we have one domestic trike manufacturer
(Greenspeed) and any others are imported. Because they are both scarce and
costly they do tend to hold their value well in this country, if you can
find one for sale. The kid liked the trike and what I was really trying to
do was have him find out what books are good for using the only such machine
within 500 miles as bait. He's always asking me questions, the most recent
being "How do atom bombs work?" but is highly resistant to the notion of
finding out for himself. As one of the weekly tasks I'd have settled for
having him find out how something works and explaining it to me from notes
he'd made. In an age of high speed broadband he wouldn't even have to bestir
his skinny ass to go down to the local library.


> Also, 52 book reports x 300 words is a lot to ask of anyone. It's
> probably 3x what is asked of him by any given school teacher in any
> given school year! If he bails out after 20 book reports, he has
> nothing!!

300 words is only half a printed A4 page!
If he'd bailed after 20 reports I'd have rewarded his sincere effort, like
giving him 40% of the trike by weight.

>
> If you asked for 15 book reports of 1000 words each, you might have
> gotten some traction ...
>
> - Don Gillies
> San Diego, CA, USA

Unfortunately, at present this kid can't be motivated and won't learn. A few
weeks ago I was doing some MIG welding (making a very solid and bulletproof
truing stand).
The kid turns up and says "Can I do some welding?"
"Sure," say I. "Nip home first and put on some boots, long sleeves and long
pants."
When he demurred at this onerous imposition, I explained why they were
necessary.
He then proceeded to tell me I was totally wrong about ultra-violet
radiation and hot slag and how he welded all the time at his Dads business
without using proper safety equipment.
What he actually wanted me to do was drop everything so he could run through
twenty dollars worth of wire and gas supplied by me, learning nothing and
producing nothing except a lot of exciting noise, sparks and fumes.
When he's interested in learning a new skill, then he can weld.

Peter H
Grumpy kid-hating old prick.

[Brian Huntley]

On Dec 15, 2:36 am, gill...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> I have to admit, my first bike was a hand-me-down (age 5), second bike
> was a gift (birthday, 7), third bike was a gift (2nd bike no good, age
> 8), 4th bike was a purchase (age 10, $60 {12x birthday/xmas presents}
> + $30 parental subsidy), and the 5th bike, I bought it with my job
> (age 16), it cost me 80 hours of computer programming.


My 4th bike was the first I bought myself. It was $40 (a three speed
"banana bike") and I paid for it by collecting beer bottles at 2 1/2
cents each. Fortunately, there were a lot of people drinking beer down
the country roads near my place, and I had the use of my sister's bike
with dual rear baskets. One hundred thirty three dozen bottles, give
or take a few pop bottles (3 cents each.) Took all summer.