Homemade shoes

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

Hi All,

Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
my own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.

First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the
edges, particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print
with paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel
raised. So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact.
This will show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend
remains to be seen.

The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
be formed in a regular oven. I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
retarded.

The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide
enough that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly
covered by webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing
is fixed to the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes
across the top of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a
loop, and across the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then
across the top to a buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff
nylon webbing, with a narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with
a buckle to adjust heel lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff
nylon webbing (woven perhaps?).

The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and
then the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back
through the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop-
rivets? Glue seems like a potential big mess.

Joseph

[Ben C]

On 2007-12-16, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
> maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and
> then the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back
> through the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop-
> rivets? Glue seems like a potential big mess.

You could try a double sole. So the webbing just wraps around the upper
layer, then you put glue everywhere and slap the lower layer on,
clamping the webbing and glue securely in a sandwich. Glue holds the
whole lot together, but it's not too messy as it's all contained inside
the sandwich. The other advantage is it's easy to clamp the two
sole-plates together in a vice or something while the glue sets thus
getting a really good bond.

To be really clever the sole-plates should also slot together in a kind
of barbed interference fit so they actually grip the webbing. But the
glue will probably be good enough.

[Tim McNamara]

I would google "shoemaking" and "cordwaining" to see some information
about making patterns and show construction techniques.

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:24:37 -0800, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make my
> own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
> suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.
>
> First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
> will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
> my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the edges,
> particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print with
> paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel raised.
> So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact. This will
> show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend remains to be
> seen.
>
> The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can be
> formed in a regular oven. I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
> cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
> formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
> SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
> edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
> retarded.
>
> The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
> with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide enough
> that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly covered by
> webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing is fixed to
> the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes across the top
> of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a loop, and across
> the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then across the top to a
> buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff nylon webbing, with a
> narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with a buckle to adjust heel
> lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff nylon webbing (woven
> perhaps?).
>
> The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
> maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and then
> the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back through
> the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop- rivets?
> Glue seems like a potential big mess.

I don't think the acrylic will be strong enough. I've had several shoes
crack, even with midsoles made of stronger/tougher reinforced nylon.

I'd use carbon fiber prepreg, or even epoxy-fiberglass. Both of these can
be formed easily.

I've done a few shoe experiments myself. I've added titanium insoles to
replace cracked plastic ones. If I were doing this again I'd probably use
carbon. I've also put new soles on with rock climbing shoe rubber.

Anyway, have fun with your project, and good luck!

Matt O.

[Werehatrack]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:24:37 -0800 (PST),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> may have
said:

>Hi All,
>
>Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
>my own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
>suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.
>
>First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
>will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
>my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the
>edges, particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print
>with paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel
>raised. So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact.
>This will show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend
>remains to be seen.

In making custom moccasins, the usual technique for describing the
sole shape is to have the person stand on a piece of paper with weight
equally distributed between both feet, while an assistant traces
around the outline of the foot with a pen. To get the flex point, the
standing person lifts up slightly and the assistant marks the line
across behind the aft point of continued contact. (The flex point is
seldom needed for moccasins, though.)

>The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
>be formed in a regular oven.

It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
present which can turn into a concentrator.

Many other materials would work better.

>I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
>cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
>formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
>SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
>edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
>retarded.

Given the look of many road shoes, this is probably the least of your
worries.

>The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
>with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide
>enough that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly
>covered by webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing
>is fixed to the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes
>across the top of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a
>loop, and across the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then
>across the top to a buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff
>nylon webbing, with a narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with
>a buckle to adjust heel lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff
>nylon webbing (woven perhaps?).
>
>The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
>maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and
>then the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back
>through the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop-
>rivets? Glue seems like a potential big mess.

Personally, I think this is a project fraught with potential for
education of the person undertaking it. Let us know how it turns out.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[sergio]

On 16 Dic, 12:24, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
> my own road shoes.

I went into shoe making out of despair since no commercial cycling
shoe I had found proved to be 'friendly'. I made two pairs so far,
worn them out and I am just about to set out for my fourth one.
All leather, almost no strong glue; so, very different from what your
technique.

I warn you. It's very easy to misjudge the ultimate stiffness before
glueing or sewing together the layers.
Also, there are special steel inserts to make the thing stiffer
(called fiosso, in Italian).

Good luck and enjoy the excercise.

My home make cycling shoes proved to be far better than any other I
had tried.

Sergio
Pisa

[Michael Baldwin]

Joseph says - Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've
decided to make my own road shoes.

...Now that's the sort of stuff I like! Good Luck. I think it's a very
doable undertaking if you're so inclined.

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

[gdewilde@gmail.com]

On Dec 16, 12:24 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
> my own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
> suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.
>
> First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
> will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
> my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the
> edges, particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print
> with paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel
> raised. So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact.
> This will show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend
> remains to be seen.
>
> The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> be formed in a regular oven. I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
> cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
> formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
> SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
> edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
> retarded.
>
> The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
> with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide
> enough that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly
> covered by webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing
> is fixed to the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes
> across the top of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a
> loop, and across the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then
> across the top to a buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff
> nylon webbing, with a narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with
> a buckle to adjust heel lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff
> nylon webbing (woven perhaps?).
>
> The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
> maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and
> then the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back
> through the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop-
> rivets? Glue seems like a potential big mess.
>
> Joseph

Maybe use screws?

It's just a thought.

They use to nail them together right?

___
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/factuurexpress

[RicodJour]

On Dec 16, 6:24 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
> my own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
> suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.
>
> First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
> will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
> my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the
> edges, particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print
> with paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel
> raised. So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact.
> This will show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend
> remains to be seen.
>
> The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> be formed in a regular oven. I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
> cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
> formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
> SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
> edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
> retarded.
>
> The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
> with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide
> enough that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly
> covered by webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing
> is fixed to the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes
> across the top of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a
> loop, and across the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then
> across the top to a buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff
> nylon webbing, with a narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with
> a buckle to adjust heel lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff
> nylon webbing (woven perhaps?).
>
> The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
> maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and
> then the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back
> through the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop-
> rivets? Glue seems like a potential big mess.

Very cool project. Fiberglass is probably the easiest way to go for
the sole - at least that construction process. It could be - gasp! -
carbon fiber, which would sound ever so much cooler than, 'Oh, I made
the sole from plexiglass.' The women would swoon for the carbon fiber
and your friends would gnash their teeth in envy. Gnashing and
swooning are what you're aiming for. That, and comfort.

Plaster mold of your foot under a bit of pressure at the right angle.
Rasp off the high spots as you don't need each and every little piggy
cradled. Use that as a mold to layup your fiberglass/carbon fiber.
You may want to cast in brads around the perimeter of the mold to
allow you to rivet/brad-nail the uppers to the sole.

You're my new hero.

R

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 16, 6:03 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> I would google "shoemaking" and "cordwaining" to see some information
> about making patterns and show construction techniques.

I have done so, and some interesting things have come up. The main
difference is cycling shoes need not flex, and need to withstand
forces pulling upward on the upper.

But some of the basic shoes turned up in searches would make fine
patterns for the non-structural parts of the uppers.

So far I have been experimenting with cloth pieces draped over my foot
in various ways. This is helping my flexibility too!

Joseph

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 16, 7:37 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:24:37 -0800, joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
> > Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make my
> > own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
> > suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.
>
> > First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
> > will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
> > my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the edges,
> > particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print with
> > paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel raised.
> > So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact. This will
> > show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend remains to be
> > seen.
>
> > The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can be
> > formed in a regular oven. I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
> > cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
> > formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
> > SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
> > edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
> > retarded.
>
> > The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
> > with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide enough
> > that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly covered by
> > webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing is fixed to
> > the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes across the top
> > of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a loop, and across
> > the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then across the top to a
> > buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff nylon webbing, with a
> > narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with a buckle to adjust heel
> > lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff nylon webbing (woven
> > perhaps?).
>
> > The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
> > maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and then
> > the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back through
> > the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop- rivets?
> > Glue seems like a potential big mess.
>
> I don't think the acrylic will be strong enough. I've had several shoes
> crack, even with midsoles made of stronger/tougher reinforced nylon.
>
> I'd use carbon fiber prepreg, or even epoxy-fiberglass. Both of these can
> be formed easily.
>
> I've done a few shoe experiments myself. I've added titanium insoles to
> replace cracked plastic ones. If I were doing this again I'd probably use
> carbon. I've also put new soles on with rock climbing shoe rubber.
>
> Anyway, have fun with your project, and good luck!
>
> Matt O.

My first thoughts were for carbon lay-up formed to my foot, but for a
prototype I thought acrylic would be easier, and it's not a total
anatomically matched fit I'm after. But maybe carbon laid out flat in
the same bend as the acrylic prototype.

How strong is plexiglass anyway?

Joseph

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:14:29 -0800, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:

> On Dec 16, 7:37 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:24:37 -0800, joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Hi All,
>>
>> > Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make my
>> > own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
>> > suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.
>>
>> > First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
>> > will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
>> > my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the edges,
>> > particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print with
>> > paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel raised.
>> > So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact. This will
>> > show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend remains to be
>> > seen.
>>
>> > The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can be
>> > formed in a regular oven. I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
>> > cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
>> > formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
>> > SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
>> > edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
>> > retarded.
>>
>> > The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
>> > with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide enough
>> > that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly covered by
>> > webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing is fixed to
>> > the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes across the top
>> > of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a loop, and across
>> > the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then across the top to a
>> > buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff nylon webbing, with a
>> > narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with a buckle to adjust heel
>> > lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff nylon webbing (woven
>> > perhaps?).
>>
>> > The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
>> > maybe slots cut into the plexi with the webbing passed through, and then
>> > the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back through
>> > the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop- rivets?
>> > Glue seems like a potential big mess.
>>
>> I don't think the acrylic will be strong enough. I've had several shoes
>> crack, even with midsoles made of stronger/tougher reinforced nylon.
>>
>> I'd use carbon fiber prepreg, or even epoxy-fiberglass. Both of these can
>> be formed easily.
>>
>> I've done a few shoe experiments myself. I've added titanium insoles to
>> replace cracked plastic ones. If I were doing this again I'd probably use
>> carbon. I've also put new soles on with rock climbing shoe rubber.
>>
>> Anyway, have fun with your project, and good luck!
>>
>> Matt O.
>
> My first thoughts were for carbon lay-up formed to my foot, but for a
> prototype I thought acrylic would be easier, and it's not a total
> anatomically matched fit I'm after. But maybe carbon laid out flat in
> the same bend as the acrylic prototype.

That's what I would do, then use an anatomic insole.

> How strong is plexiglass anyway?

Not very. It will probably crack at the ball of the foot, like
the plastic midsoles in cheap bike shoes do.

Matt O.

[Tom Sherman]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> ...
> How strong is plexiglass anyway?

About 10 ksi in yield for a typical commercially available extruded
sheet: <http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatID=52056>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 16, 9:19 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

> >The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> >be formed in a regular oven.
>
> It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
> under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
> and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
> present which can turn into a concentrator.

With the sole filled with holes for cleats, etc, there will be plenty
of opportunity for flaws. And right where the flex is probably most
pronounced.

> Many other materials would work better.

Like what? Polycarbonate/Lexan? It's about 10x more expensive than
acrylic, but still cheap enough.

Joseph

[Peter Cole]

Werehatrack wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:24:37 -0800 (PST),
> "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> may have
> said:
>
>> The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
>> be formed in a regular oven.
>
> It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
> under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
> and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
> present which can turn into a concentrator.
>
> Many other materials would work better.

This was my experience when I made adapter plates to bolt to the bottom
of sneakers, they just cracked. I switched to metal and that worked OK.

Perhaps an easier approach for a first-timer would be to modify non
cycling shoes/sandals. You can remove (perhaps destructively) the old
sole, bolt/glue a cleat plate, then glue the original (or replacement)
sole over that after cutting a cleat hole. You might even have the first
and last steps done by a cobbler.

[A Muzi]

>> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
>>> The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
>>> be formed in a regular oven.

> Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>> It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
>> under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
>> and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
>> present which can turn into a concentrator.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> With the sole filled with holes for cleats, etc, there will be plenty
> of opportunity for flaws. And right where the flex is probably most
> pronounced.

> Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>> Many other materials would work better.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Like what? Polycarbonate/Lexan? It's about 10x more expensive than
> acrylic, but still cheap enough.

A medical clinic uses a thermosetting material for limb supports which
seems pretty similar to a nylon. Easy to cut/shape, not brittle, curves
with a hair dryer and retains its shape. I have a few pieces given to us
by a med tech customer, don't know it's name.

Acrylic and polycarbonate will be difficult and not well suited I think.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Werehatrack]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:39:47 -0800 (PST),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> may have
said:

>On Dec 16, 9:19 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>
>> >The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
>> >be formed in a regular oven.
>
>> Many other materials would work better.
>
>Like what? Polycarbonate/Lexan? It's about 10x more expensive than
>acrylic, but still cheap enough.

If you can get sheet HDPE, that's a better place to start,
particularly if you can get one of the mineral-filled types. Lexan
will cold-flow under constant stress; if it doesn't actually break, it
will simply pull apart. The stiffer polycarbonates are fairly
durable, but as they get stiffer, they get more brittle.

I don't do a lot with sheet plastic materials; mostly, that's because
they aren't all that easy to get in small quantities. Truckloads,
yes; I know where to get *huge* amounts of most anything in that
line...but a piece or two, not so much. This is the downside of being
in an area where the raw feed stock is produced; the distribution
channels are used to handling firehose quantities, not a little
dribble or drop.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Chalo]

Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
> Werehatrack wrote:
> >
> > Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> > >
> > >The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> > >be formed in a regular oven.
>
> > It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
> > under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
> > and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
> > present which can turn into a concentrator.
>
> With the sole filled with holes for cleats, etc, there will be plenty
> of opportunity for flaws. And right where the flex is probably most
> pronounced.
>
> > Many other materials would work better.
>
> Like what? Polycarbonate/Lexan? It's about 10x more expensive than
> acrylic, but still cheap enough.

Polycarbonate would be much better than plain acrylic. It's a common
choice for BMX chainring bash guards and pedal skids. ABS is a good
high-impact plastic that doesn't cost much and is pretty easy to find
and form. There are special high-impact formulations of acrylic
available that would be an improvement over the regular stuff-- I even
got some at a big-box hardware store. Any kind of acrylic will craze
over time if it is hot formed without annealing it afterwards.

There are some polyethylenes (UHMW and HDPE) that, while neither
particularly strong nor stiff, are very tough and resilient, and
soften at a low enough temperature that you could probably custom form
heat-softened sheets by pressing your sock covered feet into them
(backing them up with loose sand, whole grain, or something like
that). I was amazed when I first discovered Shapelock ( http://shapelock.com/
), which is a UHMW polyethylene material that can be molded by hand
from a molten state without causing burns.

Chalo

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:39:47 -0800, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:

> On Dec 16, 9:19 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>
>> >The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
>> >be formed in a regular oven.
>>
>> It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
>> under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
>> and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
>> present which can turn into a concentrator.
>
> With the sole filled with holes for cleats, etc, there will be plenty
> of opportunity for flaws. And right where the flex is probably most
> pronounced.
>
>> Many other materials would work better.
>
> Like what? Polycarbonate/Lexan? It's about 10x more expensive than
> acrylic, but still cheap enough.

Lexan is too hard to form, and nothing sticks to it if you need to glue
anything.

Matt O.

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:57:54 -0800 (PST), sergio
<servadio@df.unipi.it> wrote:

>On 16 Dic, 12:24, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
><joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
>> my own road shoes.
>
>I went into shoe making out of despair since no commercial cycling
>shoe I had found proved to be 'friendly'. I made two pairs so far,
>worn them out and I am just about to set out for my fourth one.
>All leather, almost no strong glue; so, very different from what your
>technique.
>
>I warn you. It's very easy to misjudge the ultimate stiffness before
>glueing or sewing together the layers.
>Also, there are special steel inserts to make the thing stiffer
>(called fiosso, in Italian).
>
>Good luck and enjoy the excercise.
>
>My home make cycling shoes proved to be far better than any other I
>had tried.
>
>Sergio
>Pisa

Dear Sergio,

Pictures of the cobbling-together of your fourth set of bike shoes
would be just as interesting as the pictures of your wooden rims.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 16, 10:57 pm, sergio <serva...@df.unipi.it> wrote:
> On 16 Dic, 12:24, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
> > Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
> > my own road shoes.
>
> I went into shoe making out of despair since no commercial cycling
> shoe I had found proved to be 'friendly'. I made two pairs so far,
> worn them out and I am just about to set out for my fourth one.
> All leather, almost no strong glue; so, very different from what your
> technique.
>
> I warn you. It's very easy to misjudge the ultimate stiffness before
> glueing or sewing together the layers.
> Also, there are special steel inserts to make the thing stiffer
> (called fiosso, in Italian).
>
> Good luck and enjoy the excercise.
>
> My home make cycling shoes proved to be far better than any other I
> had tried.
>
> Sergio
> Pisa

Do you have pictures? I'd love to see them.

My favorite cycling shoes I ever had were some wooden soled Duegis. I
thought about a traditional shoe, but figured the skills necessary
were beyond my patience. The most comfortable shoes I have of all
(unfortunately not cycling shoes) are dress shoes I had made in Paris
20 years ago in an entirely traditional manner. The stiffener you
describe is I believe called a shank in English.

I'm sure shoemakers abound in Pisa so access to quality materials was
perhaps not such a problem. I wouldn't even know where to start.

Joseph

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:57:54 -0800 (PST), sergio
<servadio@df.unipi.it> wrote:

>On 16 Dic, 12:24, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
><joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
>> my own road shoes.
>
>I went into shoe making out of despair since no commercial cycling
>shoe I had found proved to be 'friendly'. I made two pairs so far,
>worn them out and I am just about to set out for my fourth one.
>All leather, almost no strong glue; so, very different from what your
>technique.
>
>I warn you. It's very easy to misjudge the ultimate stiffness before
>glueing or sewing together the layers.
>Also, there are special steel inserts to make the thing stiffer
>(called fiosso, in Italian).
>
>Good luck and enjoy the excercise.
>
>My home make cycling shoes proved to be far better than any other I
>had tried.
>
>Sergio
>Pisa

Dear Sergio,

Here are your pictures of your current third set of shoes:

http://i7.tinypic.com/72k2iyd.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/7xkd1s3.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/7318yzp.jpg

"They have provided heavy service the last six years or so. I
originally intended they would be winter shoes (hence the lining), but
I later decided they are too comfortable to leave them unused in the
summer."

I hope to see some pictures of the fourth set as you make them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[sergio]

O.k.
I'll take shots and pass them over in due, mind you short, time .
This part of the country is famous, in fact World famous, for leather
factories.
Check it out under Santa Croce and Castelfranco di Sotto.

In nearby Lucca there was a shoemaker specialised in cycling shoes,
serving the likes of Bartali, Nencini, De Vlaeminck ... .
Colombini was his name.

Sergio
Pisa

[datakoll]

HE'S GONE OVER THE EDGE!

CHECK NEW BALANCE for outdoor trail shoes or Gore tex and in your
sizes
place the hard sole in the shoe with hardware attahed to stick out the
sole.

that's square one.
square 2>

poly carbonate 1/4" may be "unbreakable" acrylic is nowhere for a
sole.
but strapping? verrrrry tricky avoiding cutting your flesh.
a replaceable stretchable fabric spreading forces over a wider area?
rivets? run the straps under the shoe and tighten with a cam. same for
the fabric. fabric goes to a longitudinal fabric retainer, reatiner
two cams together.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 17, 1:08 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> >>> be formed in a regular oven.
> > Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
> >> It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
> >> under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
> >> and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
> >> present which can turn into a concentrator.
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > With the sole filled with holes for cleats, etc, there will be plenty
> > of opportunity for flaws. And right where the flex is probably most
> > pronounced.
> > Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
> >> Many other materials would work better.
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Like what? Polycarbonate/Lexan? It's about 10x more expensive than
> > acrylic, but still cheap enough.
>
> A medical clinic uses a thermosetting material for limb supports which
> seems pretty similar to a nylon. Easy to cut/shape, not brittle, curves
> with a hair dryer and retains its shape. I have a few pieces given to us
> by a med tech customer, don't know it's name.
>
> Acrylic and polycarbonate will be difficult and not well suited I think.
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I have had the misfortune of having to use that stuff when I broke my
wrist one time. After the cast was removed, I had a splint made of
that stuff and velcro straps I was supposed to use for a while.

Anyone know what it is called? That stuff would be perfect.

Joseph

[Chalo]

Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
> A Muzi wrote:
> >
> > A medical clinic uses a thermosetting material for limb supports which
> > seems pretty similar to a nylon. Easy to cut/shape, not brittle, curves
> > with a hair dryer and retains its shape. I have a few pieces given to us
> > by a med tech customer, don't know it's name.
>
> I have had the misfortune of having to use that stuff when I broke my
> wrist one time. After the cast was removed, I had a splint made of
> that stuff and velcro straps I was supposed to use for a while.
>
> Anyone know what it is called? That stuff would be perfect.

If it softens with a hair dryer, I bet it's a polyethylene-- probably
UHMW (ultra high molecular weight) PE.

Chalo

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 17, 1:00 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Werehatrack wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:24:37 -0800 (PST),
> > "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> may have
> > said:
>
> >> The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> >> be formed in a regular oven.
>
> > It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
> > under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
> > and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
> > present which can turn into a concentrator.
>
> > Many other materials would work better.
>
> This was my experience when I made adapter plates to bolt to the bottom
> of sneakers, they just cracked. I switched to metal and that worked OK.
>
> Perhaps an easier approach for a first-timer would be to modify non
> cycling shoes/sandals. You can remove (perhaps destructively) the old
> sole, bolt/glue a cleat plate, then glue the original (or replacement)
> sole over that after cutting a cleat hole. You might even have the first
> and last steps done by a cobbler.

I'm looking for super stiff sole, and a reasonable weight, so
modifying existing shoes won't really fit the bill.

There is actually a cobbler in town, so I might pay him a visit.

Joseph

[A Muzi]

>> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
>>> my own road shoes.

> sergio <servadio@df.unipi.it> wrote:
>> I went into shoe making out of despair since no commercial cycling
>> shoe I had found proved to be 'friendly'. I made two pairs so far,
>> worn them out and I am just about to set out for my fourth one.
>> All leather, almost no strong glue; so, very different from what your
>> technique.
>>
>> I warn you. It's very easy to misjudge the ultimate stiffness before
>> glueing or sewing together the layers.
>> Also, there are special steel inserts to make the thing stiffer
>> (called fiosso, in Italian).
>> Good luck and enjoy the excercise.
>> My home make cycling shoes proved to be far better than any other I
>> had tried.

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Here are your pictures of your current third set of shoes:
>
> http://i7.tinypic.com/72k2iyd.jpg
>
> http://i10.tinypic.com/7xkd1s3.jpg
>
> http://i1.tinypic.com/7318yzp.jpg
>
> "They have provided heavy service the last six years or so. I
> originally intended they would be winter shoes (hence the lining), but
> I later decided they are too comfortable to leave them unused in the
> summer."
> I hope to see some pictures of the fourth set as you make them.

The Ancients also used a leather slotted cleat of similar shape to good
effect. With a toestrap, the cleat doesn't have to be excessively tight
or rigid in the pedal to work well.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[sergio]

On Dec 17, 9:04 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> I hope to see some pictures of the fourth set as you make them.

Never was a wish more prophetic than yours!

Today I set out for an afternoon spin, first time since I took those
pictures, and I could nowhere find my shoes.
After a few minutes of unsuccessful search I came to the only sensible
conclusion. They have been lost.

Being in a hurry, the other day I left them near the kitchen door,
inside a plastic bag. Yesterday I had several bags of garbage to
dispose of.
There went my shoes.

So stupid!

Sergio
Pisa

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 18, 1:12 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> HE'S GONE OVER THE EDGE!
>
> CHECK NEW BALANCE for outdoor trail shoes or Gore tex and in your
> sizes
> place the hard sole in the shoe with hardware attahed to stick out the
> sole.
>
> that's square one.
> square 2>
>
> poly carbonate 1/4" may be "unbreakable" acrylic is nowhere for a
> sole.
> but strapping? verrrrry tricky avoiding cutting your flesh.
> a replaceable stretchable fabric spreading forces over a wider area?
> rivets? run the straps under the shoe and tighten with a cam. same for
> the fabric. fabric goes to a longitudinal fabric retainer, reatiner
> two cams together.

2" wide soft polypropylene straps will spread the load. And I like
plastic cam buckles better than velcro too. As for fabric, I'm
thinking it's just loose with some "belt loops" that hold it in place
to the 2" straps.

Joseph

[datakoll]

well, strap oblongs allowing strap passage thru the sole at the sole
margin under sole bottom and back up thru strap oblong holes in the
sole material then back across the dorsal foot...
where did you buy 'soft' poly straps? from DeWilde? or Teva?

what the carbonate soles need are LED strobes: then it's Monte Carlo
baby!

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 18, 4:15 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> well, strap oblongs allowing strap passage thru the sole at the sole
> margin under sole bottom and back up thru strap oblong holes in the
> sole material then back across the dorsal foot...
> where did you buy 'soft' poly straps? from DeWilde? or Teva?
>
> what the carbonate soles need are LED strobes: then it's Monte Carlo
> baby!

The only problem with the straps passing across the bottom of the sole
is the cleat. But oblong holes or slots with the strap pushed through,
then doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back through.

I ordered a bunch of webbing and buckles and stuff from http://www.strapworks.com/

It hasn't come yet, but it says it's soft...

Joseph

[datakoll]

yeah holes thru or double holes for ??? beat hooks and things. straps
under? cut a channel with ur table saw.

I tried Teva to the store and back, straps cut thru under the talus
head. looks simple.

the fabric thing is ongoing. EG there's a kayak dry suit videofrom
Immersion Research where entry is thru the dry neck sleeve.

[datakoll]

yawl sunscribe to GlobalSpec?

http://www.globalspec.com/newsletter/ViewIssue?Vol=Vol7Issue51A&Pub=1

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:31:52 -0800 (PST), sergio
<servadio@df.unipi.it> wrote:

>On Dec 17, 9:04 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> I hope to see some pictures of the fourth set as you make them.
>
>Never was a wish more prophetic than yours!
>
>Today I set out for an afternoon spin, first time since I took those
>pictures, and I could nowhere find my shoes.
>After a few minutes of unsuccessful search I came to the only sensible
>conclusion. They have been lost.
>
>Being in a hurry, the other day I left them near the kitchen door,
>inside a plastic bag. Yesterday I had several bags of garbage to
>dispose of.
>There went my shoes.
>
>So stupid!
>
>Sergio
>Pisa

Dear Sergio,

Aaaaargh!

I wanted to see the new shoes being made, but not like this.

Aaaaargh!

Carl Fogel

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 18, 9:39 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:31:52 -0800 (PST), sergio
>
>
>
> <serva...@df.unipi.it> wrote:
> >On Dec 17, 9:04 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> I hope to see some pictures of the fourth set as you make them.
>
> >Never was a wish more prophetic than yours!
>
> >Today I set out for an afternoon spin, first time since I took those
> >pictures, and I could nowhere find my shoes.
> >After a few minutes of unsuccessful search I came to the only sensible
> >conclusion. They have been lost.
>
> >Being in a hurry, the other day I left them near the kitchen door,
> >inside a plastic bag. Yesterday I had several bags of garbage to
> >dispose of.
> >There went my shoes.
>
> >So stupid!
>
> >Sergio
> >Pisa
>
> Dear Sergio,
>
> Aaaaargh!
>
> I wanted to see the new shoes being made, but not like this.
>
> Aaaaargh!
>
> Carl Fogel

Inanimate objects have a finite amount of joy in them. Once the
pictures were made public and countless numbers of us enjoyed them,
the joy reserves were depleted, and thus Sergio was unable to continue
to enjoy them. Such is the cosmic way.

Sergio, this is an omen. A new pair beckons to be made. And this time
with photo-documentation along they way.

Joseph

[datakoll]

joe been eatin too much blubber.

drill horizontal LED hole(s) into sole sides 360
drill perp hole into back horiztal hole for wires.
batts go in heel.

MONTE BABAY MONTE!

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 19, 7:30 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:39:47 -0800, joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Dec 16, 9:19 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>
> >> >The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> >> >be formed in a regular oven.
>
> >> It also breaks with distressing ease. Although it has fair strength
> >> under compression, it's not worth a damn under tension and bending,
> >> and the flexure limit is fairly small, particularly if there's a flaw
> >> present which can turn into a concentrator.
>
> > With the sole filled with holes for cleats, etc, there will be plenty
> > of opportunity for flaws. And right where the flex is probably most
> > pronounced.
>
> >> Many other materials would work better.
>
> > Like what? Polycarbonate/Lexan? It's about 10x more expensive than
> > acrylic, but still cheap enough.
>
> Lexan is too hard to form, and nothing sticks to it if you need to glue
> anything.
>
> Matt O.

No glue might pose problems, but is forming Lexan that hard?
Everything I've read says the hard part is keeping it from hazing,
which won't be a problem in this case. The LED's will show though some
mild haze... :-)

Joseph

[datakoll]

WHY USE lEXAN-CARBONATE? use plywood: whatsamatter?, ura too good for
plywood? gotta have something NEW? auk currant? Is that your problem?
lexan is 'unbreakable' glazing. big deal.
what you need is a foam uberlayer to form fit your foot atop Russian
birch

[still just me]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:29:09 -0800 (PST),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>No glue might pose problems, but is forming Lexan that hard?
>Everything I've read says the hard part is keeping it from hazing,
>which won't be a problem in this case. The LED's will show though some
>mild haze... :-)

I had a piece of 1/8" Lexan about 4" x 18" long that I was trying to
form into a very minor, smooth curve. Placing it on a flat plane, the
center would be elevated about 3/8" when formed.

I'd heat it up with a hot air gun, get it formed, and when it cooled,
it returned to it's normal shape every time. I tried more heat, going
to a larger curve while heating, and fast cooling - it didn't matter,
I couldn't break the molecular bonds and get it to stay formed.
Perhaps baking in an oven would have done it, but I wasn't up for
that.

[dabac]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> No glue might pose problems...
Before giving up on the glue one should contact tech support at 3M and
Loctite, they have all kinds of interesting etching primers that goes
with their glues to make anything stick to pretty much anything.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> ... but is forming Lexan that hard?

Depends on your frame of reference, but IMO, no.
Well, I wouldn't like to try for sub-mm precision, but allow me 1 mm
off in either direction and I'd happily have a go. I've made
snowshoe-style bindings for tour skates with decent results and only a
modest amount of swearing.
I made a template, chucked template and Lexan in the oven at 155 deg C,
waited until it started to sag, pulled everything out and forced Lexan
against template using padded mitts and then plonked it all down in cold
water to speed up setting.
joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> ...Everything I've read says the hard part is keeping it from hazing, The culprit there is that Lexan is hygroscopic(sp?), and the cure is to
dry it out on a lower temp before heating to bending temperatures (or,
forming it in a pressurized oven, if you happen to have one around...)
The guideline I've found said to use 24 h for each mm thickness at
75-95 deg C. Kind of tedious when you're working with quarter-inch, and
not that popular if there's someone else around who also wants access to
the oven...


--
dabac

[datakoll]

zappos catapulted NB 809's (two left) thru the door a few minutes ago.
24 hour service free return. incroyable.
the NB's at EE measure 5/8th's wider than the more srious North Face
'D'.
I tried a 'D' in all synthetic Gore-Tex before noticing NB offered an
EE in a similar but less serious hiking sneaker.

I bring this up because my foot doesn't feel that difference. D and EE
esp. in NB is visually wider but muh foot is dead too the extra width.
My foot gets stretched and run barefoot every and every other day.

Could be Joe's size problem comes from insensitivity? That the old
worn shoes and the old foot don't relate to the new unbroken in shoe
and the old foot?

The old EE (same last as new EE) and the new 'D' that I can feel but
the new/new nada.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 19, 11:52 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> WHY USE lEXAN-CARBONATE? use plywood: whatsamatter?, ura too good for
> plywood? gotta have something NEW? auk currant? Is that your problem?
> lexan is 'unbreakable' glazing. big deal.
> what you need is a foam uberlayer to form fit your foot atop Russian
> birch

I spoke with a guy in town who makes prosthetics and orthepedic shoes
for people with serious diabetes, etc. He also makes custom sports
braces for knees, etc. He was intruiged by the cycling shoe idea. I've
arranged to meet him to dicuss further and show him some cycling
shoes. I contacted him originally to see if I could buy some thermo-
formable plastic.

As for the plywood variant, I could use expanding foam insulation in a
spray can. That stuff to seal up window frames.

Joseph

[datakoll]

? I made taillights from Sunlite. Bent 1/8th into a U shape around a
post as with aluminum strap.

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=9927-A50&categoryid=2010

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5010D700T&categoryid=27400

not a big deal to heat a box to the desired temp with propane or
electric then cook. The memory shuld give at a predetermined temp.

[Tom Sherman]

still just me wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:29:09 -0800 (PST),
> "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No glue might pose problems, but is forming Lexan that hard?
>> Everything I've read says the hard part is keeping it from hazing,
>> which won't be a problem in this case. The LED's will show though some
>> mild haze... :-)
>
> I had a piece of 1/8" Lexan about 4" x 18" long that I was trying to
> form into a very minor, smooth curve. Placing it on a flat plane, the
> center would be elevated about 3/8" when formed.
>
> I'd heat it up with a hot air gun, get it formed, and when it cooled,
> it returned to it's normal shape every time. I tried more heat, going
> to a larger curve while heating, and fast cooling - it didn't matter,
> I couldn't break the molecular bonds and get it to stay formed.
> Perhaps baking in an oven would have done it, but I wasn't up for
> that.

Some people have built ovens for molding polycarbonate:
<http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[datakoll]

you have diabetes? bummer. it's the styrene, I'll bet. styrene and
bluuber = diabetes
on your way to get a new leg, search thru the trash for the plywood.

[datakoll]

forget the shoes build a boat!

http://www.gsahv.pp.fi/

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 20, 3:49 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> forget the shoes build a boat!
>
> http://www.gsahv.pp.fi/

I know 15 is big, but boats?

Joseph

[datakoll]

we gotta MEME here?
what if I sell ply as a genetically refined product biometered over
centuries then carefully processed to the highest engineering and
manufacturing standards available.
Shaped, sanded, filled with urethane fillers and paints in your choice
of vibrant colors
like a fractured surface dull gray?

[datakoll]

ITSA BIRD ITSA PLANE ITS CAPTAIN STYRENE! in for a liver transplanet.

pour the mold material (commercial) into the plaster
then invert the mold and lay in carbon carbon

that's what happens with muh size 14 pedal covers (yellow) bolted atop
Nashbar bear jaws or bear traps.
"hey nice pedals youmakeumurself?"
"yup"
"hey whazzit made of?"
"plywood"

then they throw up

[pgeorge777]

On Dec 20, 4:28*pm, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 16, 6:24 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi All,
>
> > Because it's winter, and just for the fun of it, I've decided to make
> > my own road shoes. Here is my plan, and I'd be interested to hear any
> > suggestions on other easier and/or better ways to do things.
>
> > First I will make a foot print of my bare foot with some paint. This
> > will show what shape the sole should be, as this is what needs to bear
> > my weight. I'll add some fudge room to keep from sliding off the
> > edges, particularly in the front. I will them make another foot print
> > with paint on top of the full foot print, but this time with my heel
> > raised. So only my toes and the ball of my foot will make contact.
> > This will show where the sole of the shoe should bend. How much bend
> > remains to be seen.
>
> > The soles will be made from 1/4" arcylic sheet which is cheap and can
> > be formed in a regular oven. I will drill holes for T-nuts to hold the
> > cleats, and with some commercially available insoles (perhaps thermo -
> > formable). Some rubber heel screwed on for walking. I'll be using SPD-
> > SL cleats, so the sole will have no other contact with the ground. The
> > edges will be beveled in hopes of not having this whole thing look too
> > retarded.
>
> > The uppers will be made from polypropolene webbing. I will experiment
> > with different widths, and with velcro and plastic buckles. Wide
> > enough that while the shoe is actually a sandal, it will be mostly
> > covered by webbing. I was figuring a zig-zag pattern where the webbing
> > is fixed to the sole near the ball of the foot on the inside, it goes
> > across the top of the foot to the outside edge of the sole, through a
> > loop, and across the instep to a loop by the arch of the foot, then
> > across the top to a buckle or velcro. A heel counter made from stiff
> > nylon webbing, with a narrower adjusting strap from polypropolene with
> > a buckle to adjust heel lock-in. Perhaps a toe-box also from stiff
> > nylon webbing (woven perhaps?).
>
> > The big issue now is how to attach the webbing to the sole. I thought
> > maybe slotscutinto the plexi with the webbing passed through, and
> > then the webbing doubled over and sewn so it is too wide to pass back
> > through the slot. Or maybe pop-rivets? Will the plexi crack from pop-
> > rivets? Glue seems like a potential big mess.
>
> Very cool project. *Fiberglass is probably the easiest way to go for
> the sole - at least that construction process. *It could be - gasp! -
> carbon fiber, which would sound ever so much cooler than, 'Oh, I made
> the sole from plexiglass.' *The women would swoon for the carbon fiber
> and your friends would gnash their teeth in envy. *Gnashing and
> swooning are what you're aiming for. *That, and comfort.
>
> Plaster mold of your foot under a bit of pressure at the right angle.
> Rasp off the high spots as you don't need each and every little piggy
> cradled. *Use that as a mold to layup your fiberglass/carbon fiber.
> You may want to cast in brads around the perimeter of the mold to
> allow you to rivet/brad-nail the uppers to the sole.
>
> You're my new hero.
>
> R- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This might be a project for laser cutting. Try www.lasercuttinginc.us

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 21, 7:35*am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
> > ...
> > How strong is plexiglass anyway?
>
> About 10 ksi in yield for a typical commercially available extruded
> sheet: <http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatID=52056>.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

I looked at polycarbonate there too, but I don't know what all the
number mean. So I can't tell how much better Lexan would be than
Plexiglass.

Joseph

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 21, 7:45*am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> still just me wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:29:09 -0800 (PST),
> > "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> No glue might pose problems, but is forming Lexan that hard?
> >> Everything I've read says the hard part is keeping it from hazing,
> >> which won't be a problem in this case. The LED's will show though some
> >> mild haze... :-)
>
> > *I had a piece of 1/8" Lexan about 4" x 18" long that I was trying to
> > form into a very minor, smooth curve. Placing it on a flat plane, the
> > center would be elevated about 3/8" when formed.
>
> > I'd heat it up with a hot air gun, get it formed, and when it cooled,
> > it returned to it's normal shape every time. I tried more heat, going
> > to a larger curve while heating, and fast cooling - it didn't matter,
> > I couldn't break the molecular bonds and get it to stay formed.
> > Perhaps baking in an oven would have done it, but I wasn't up for
> > that.
>
> Some people have built ovens for molding polycarbonate:
> <http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm>.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Quite a project! Happily my soles will fit an a regular oven, once the
gingerbread cookies are finished.

Joseph

[dabac]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> I looked at polycarbonate there too, but I don't know what all the
> number mean. So I can't tell how much better Lexan would be than
> Plexiglass.
It's partially a question about what you mean by "better", but plexi is
nastily brittle as compared to Lexan.
Lexan OTOH can almost be too stringy for certain applications. Cutting
Lexan for instance can have the entertaining effect of the cut melting
back together behind the saw blade...

It doesn't do that well if you're trying to improvise a leaf spring out
of it either.


--
dabac

[datakoll]

you're goofing on us? acrylic is tarpaper.
cooking plastic in the kitchen? be serious: what will the pigs and
chickens think?
pass the blubber.
I went thru this materials BS for a serious HD Touring rear rack as a
carpenter well read in materials and a "gearhead" canoeist. Under
normal circumstance, plastic doesn't beat wood nor aluminum.
Aluminum was considered? why leave AL out?
racing shoes combine stiffness with cradleing the foot, recreational
shoes need not and effectively maybe should not attemmpt that
combination for comfort and longevity of rider and shoe.
snort

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 21, 3:32*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> you're goofing on us? acrylic is tarpaper.
> cooking plastic in the kitchen? be serious: what will the pigs and
> chickens think?
> pass the blubber.
> I went thru this materials BS for a serious HD Touring rear rack as a
> carpenter well read in materials and a "gearhead" canoeist. Under
> normal circumstance, plastic doesn't beat wood nor aluminum.
> Aluminum was considered? why leave AL out?
> racing shoes combine stiffness with cradleing the foot, recreational
> shoes need not and effectively maybe should not attemmpt that
> combination for comfort and longevity of rider and shoe.
> snort

I never considered aluminum. I don't know why.

I just ordered 4 Lexan sheets. 12"x12"x1/4". By angling my templates I
should be able to get 2 soles from each sheet. 4 ought to be enough to
figure out how to heat and shape. If it works out the way I envision,
each pair of shoes should cost about $14 in materials and weight
about 600g.

Blubber will make a fine mold release agent.

These are supposed to be racing shoes.

Joseph

[datakoll]

PODIUM or DNF that is the question
wether to suffer the slings and arrows of development time
chasing an exotic material over the moor
what light thru yonder window breaks?

tis a laser sire, the VOGONS attack. perhaps you wood renew your
subscription to Mother Earth before we're annihilated?

we have no doubt a carbonate sole moves you up 10 postions
before you DNF!

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 21, 4:14*pm, dabac <dabac.31y...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> > I looked at polycarbonate there too, but I don't know what all the
> > number mean. So I can't tell how much better Lexan would be than
> > Plexiglass.
>
> It's partially a question about what you mean by "better", but plexi is
> nastily brittle as compared to Lexan.
> Lexan OTOH can almost be too stringy for certain applications. Cutting
> Lexan for instance can have the entertaining effect of the cut melting
> back together behind the saw blade...
>
> It doesn't do that well if you're trying to improvise a leaf spring out
> of it either.
>
> --
> dabac

Better in the context of a road racing cycling shoe. Essentially no
walking, just riding. I chose 1/4" Lexan because it seemed a
reasonable thickness. How much flex will that have under 100kg on a
30cm foot? Will they break?

I was planning on sawing by hand to avoid those melting issues. And as
for holes I suppose wood bits in a hand drill would work fine.

Joseph

[Tom Sherman]

dabac ??? wrote:
> joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>> I looked at polycarbonate there too, but I don't know what all the
>> number mean. So I can't tell how much better Lexan would be than
>> Plexiglass.
> It's partially a question about what you mean by "better", but plexi is
> nastily brittle as compared to Lexan.
> Lexan OTOH can almost be too stringy for certain applications. Cutting
> Lexan for instance can have the entertaining effect of the cut melting
> back together behind the saw blade....

Cutting polycarbonate sheet with a Dremel cut-off disc makes a horrible
noise. I always would wait to do this work until a time when one of my
apartment neighbors was playing hip-hop too loudly.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 21, 5:41*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> PODIUM or DNF that is the question
> wether to suffer the slings and arrows of development time
> chasing an exotic material over the moor
> what light thru yonder window breaks?
>
> tis a laser sire, the VOGONS attack. perhaps you wood renew your
> subscription to Mother Earth before we're annihilated?
>
> we have no doubt a carbonate sole moves you up 10 postions
> before you DNF!

How many spots do the LED's move me up?

Joseph

[still just me]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:50:20 -0800 (PST),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>Better in the context of a road racing cycling shoe. Essentially no
>walking, just riding. I chose 1/4" Lexan because it seemed a
>reasonable thickness. How much flex will that have under 100kg on a
>30cm foot? Will they break?

At the least, they'll be somewhat bullet proof!

1/4" was what I tried to bend. Based on what Tom
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/bubbles/hpvbubbles.htm

and the fact that it's 8 times thicker than .25, I think you will have
your work cut out for you. Perhaps a long time in the oven would do
it. Plexiglas is positively easy to bend in comparison.

>I was planning on sawing by hand to avoid those melting issues. And as
>for holes I suppose wood bits in a hand drill would work fine.
>

I think sharp brad point bits are the way to go.

[dabac]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> Better in the context of a road racing cycling shoe. Well, since plexi shatters into sharp shards far easier than Lexan I'm
sure you're making the right choice.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> Essentially no walking, just riding. I think that would mainly influence how much work you need to put into
putting treaded/cushioned soles on, rather than the mechanical
properties of the sole "core" material.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> I chose 1/4" Lexan because it seemed a reasonable thickness. It'd do far better if you'll be able to make it double-curved. But
you're right, 1/4" is reasonably easy to cut w/o being too heavy or
clumsy.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> How much flex will that have under 100kg on a 30cm foot?
After having retrieved a sheet of 6 mm Lexan from my materials stash I
can safely say that it will flex. If I place a pencil under the Lexan
and then put the arch of my foot over that spot my 80 kg will "easily"
push both heel and toe end of Lexan in contact with the ground.
OTOH if I put the ball of my foot over the pencil I don't feel any
flexing at all.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> Will they break?
Very, very unlikely, unless you get fatigue cracks from cleat mounting
holes.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> I was planning on sawing by hand to avoid those melting issues. That is also doable, and cutting the full circumference of a pair of
soles will give you a nice upper body work out too. I'd suggest you use
a hacksaw, or any saw with similar metal cutting ability. 24/30 TPI will
cut fine. Soapy water may be used as a cutting fluid.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> And as for holes I suppose wood bits in a hand drill would work fine.

Certainly, although somewhat of a light touch is recommended as the
drill bit might "take thread" and start to pull itself through the
material. If using a power drill it is advisable to have the part
clamped down. If you want to fake out a Home Depot employee, (and get a
slightly better result), ask for a drill bit ground for copper
machining.


--
dabac

[datakoll]

I THINK FORSTNERS ARE THE WAY TO GO like get up to speeeeeeeeeed

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=109-094&LARGEVIEW=ON

chop two holes, cut between and wolloahhh! a strap oblong.
but serioiusly, aluminum plate under a foam support is real GP.
that's where this route missing the mark: stiffness is easily achieved
at helium weights but the foam support? that's the trickypart.
proper foam support equals greater lactate threshold conversions!

[datakoll]

like the sandwich is the big deal here: stiffness plus comfort/support
without energy waste-kinetic loss-yaw and jiggle.
Surly carbonate does not have the give of current racing insoles tho
fersure it looses less kinetic force.
without foam, carbonate should send your foot innervation off the
scale.
but if but if uragonnahafta add foam why use the stiffness right off?
why not compromise?
like the sacrifice for savings has been made what 6 more grams?
actually maybe less grams as carbonate is heavy.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 22, 12:56*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> like the sandwich is the big deal here: stiffness plus comfort/support
> without energy waste-kinetic loss-yaw and jiggle.
> Surly carbonate does not have the give of current racing insoles tho
> fersure it looses less kinetic force.
> without foam, carbonate should send your foot innervation off the
> scale.
> but if but if uragonnahafta add foam why use the stiffness right off?
> why not compromise?
> like the sacrifice for savings has been made what 6 more grams?
> actually maybe less grams as carbonate is heavy.

No foam for me. The only insole would be to not bee too slippery. My
favorite all time shoes had a wood sole. I want stiffness.

Joseph

[datakoll]

WEAR EARPLUGS!

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
> WEAR EARPLUGS!

Ear plugs are mostly effective at reducing higher frequency noise - that
annoying, bloated, "one-note" bass prevalent in hip-hop still comes
through all too well.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

[datakoll]

FOAM LIKE WOOD CHEAPER THAN CARBON LIKE STEEL. no meme!
Saying wood doesn't embrace the material WOOD let alone penetrate it.
Or foam.

BTW, commercial shoes insole material? Shouldn't that layup be your
search's main goal? just to stay abreast with the pack? a custom
vacuum bagged commercial layup in a modified commercial running
sneaker is a lot easier more doirect than developing new material?

you see, when carbonate matured as a commercially available material,
do you not think Sidi engineering staggered over to TRueValue after
lunch, bought carbonate, then spent the rest ofthe week screwing
around with it?

moving past developing alternative methods would be a second stage?

the addresses here should include boatbuilding
http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Design/index.cgi
http://www.boat-links.com/linklists/boatlink-06.html
http://www.sweetcomposites.com/Links.html
pawsibley a mail order curse in shoemaking?
Do you raddoneur on wood soles sans foam?

[RicodJour]

On Dec 22, 3:48 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 12:56 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > like the sandwich is the big deal here: stiffness plus comfort/support
> > without energy waste-kinetic loss-yaw and jiggle.
> > Surly carbonate does not have the give of current racing insoles tho
> > fersure it looses less kinetic force.
> > without foam, carbonate should send your foot innervation off the
> > scale.
> > but if but if uragonnahafta add foam why use the stiffness right off?
> > why not compromise?
> > like the sacrifice for savings has been made what 6 more grams?
> > actually maybe less grams as carbonate is heavy.
>
> No foam for me. The only insole would be to not bee too slippery. My
> favorite all time shoes had a wood sole. I want stiffness.

Any reason you ruled out wood? Generally considered one of the
easiest materials to work, and the price is right. You could laminate
veneer together in a vacuum press and the veneer would conform exactly
to the mold. Crossgrain is a good thing in veneer layup.

While the others are spouting off about their new carbon soled shoes,
you could casually lift your foot like you're messing with your cleat
and show off your zebrawood soles. http://www.woodzone.com/woods/zebrawood.htm

R

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 22, 3:21*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> FOAM LIKE WOOD CHEAPER THAN CARBON LIKE STEEL. no meme!
> Saying wood doesn't embrace the material WOOD let alone penetrate it.
> Or foam.
>
> BTW, commercial shoes insole material? Shouldn't that layup be your
> search's main goal? just to stay abreast with the pack? a custom
> vacuum bagged commercial layup in a modified commercial running
> sneaker is a lot easier more doirect than developing new material?
>
> you see, when carbonate matured as a commercially available material,
> do you not think Sidi engineering staggered over to TRueValue after
> lunch, bought carbonate, then spent the rest ofthe week screwing
> around with it?
>
> moving past developing alternative methods would be a second stage?
>
> the addresses here should include boatbuildinghttp://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Design/index.cgihttp://www.boat-links.com/linklists/boatlink-06.htmlhttp://www.sweetcomposites.com/Links.html
> pawsibley a mail order curse in shoemaking?
> Do you raddoneur *on wood soles sans foam?

The polycarbonate is leading the pack of choices now due to low cost
and relative easy of working it without a big mess and with my limited
workshop space.

Carbon fiber would be my first choice. I live in a maritime area with
plenty of access to that sort of thing. But too much mess, at least
for the first go around.

I've done monster rides in wood soled shoes. The stiffer the better.
No foam.

Joseph

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 22, 3:54*pm, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 3:48 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 22, 12:56 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > like the sandwich is the big deal here: stiffness plus comfort/support
> > > without energy waste-kinetic loss-yaw and jiggle.
> > > Surly carbonate does not have the give of current racing insoles tho
> > > fersure it looses less kinetic force.
> > > without foam, carbonate should send your foot innervation off the
> > > scale.
> > > but if but if uragonnahafta add foam why use the stiffness right off?
> > > why not compromise?
> > > like the sacrifice for savings has been made what 6 more grams?
> > > actually maybe less grams as carbonate is heavy.
>
> > No foam for me. The only insole would be to not bee too slippery. My
> > favorite all time shoes had a wood sole. I want stiffness.
>
> Any reason you ruled out wood? *Generally considered one of the
> easiest materials to work, and the price is right. *You could laminate
> veneer together in a vacuum press and the veneer would conform exactly
> to the mold. *Crossgrain is a good thing in veneer layup.
>
> While the others are spouting off about their new carbon soled shoes,
> you could casually lift your foot like you're messing with your cleat
> and show off your zebrawood soles. *http://www.woodzone.com/woods/zebrawood.htm
>
> R

Previous woodworking endeavors have resulted in less than satisfactory
results, to put it mildly.

Joseph

[dabac]

RicodJour Wrote:
> ... You could laminate veneer together in a *vacuum press* and the
> veneer would conform exactlyto the mold. Crossgrain is a good thing in
> veneer layup.

But how many people have access to a vacuum press? That's a quite rare
piece of kit, and your home vacuum cleaner won't be happy if you task it
to provide the negative pressure. Buying veneer by the sheet isn't
something the average lumber yard will be able to help you with either,
and given the radiuses found on a contoured sole I kinda doubt if vacuum
would be able to do the trick unless you also steam the veneer first.


--
dabac

[sergio]

On 22 Dic, 16:41, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> Previous woodworking endeavors have resulted in less than satisfactory
> results, to put it mildly.

Could you expand and be candid about it?

Sergio
Pisa

[datakoll]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ig5GlZaBCskC&dq=EXPANDABLE+FOAM

MESS? you're gassing the domestic animals cooking plastic in the
kitchen oven and you're concerned with a little MEK? go with
vinylester.
rent shop space.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 22, 4:48*pm, sergio <serva...@df.unipi.it> wrote:
> On 22 Dic, 16:41, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> > Previous woodworking endeavors have resulted in less than satisfactory
> > results, to put it mildly.
>
> Could you expand and be candid about it?
>
> Sergio
> Pisa

I used to live near a friend who had a professional woodworking shop.
He was a top notch cabinet maker. On occasion I borrowed his shop to
make some furniture. Making things from scratch that involved right
angles worked out ok, as long as I had a myriad elaborate tools to
make up for my innate lack of patience.

I had another friend who was trained as a furniture restorer. He owned
an antique store, and he fixed up furniture and sold it. He had only
rudimentary hand tools*. With his encouragement, I decided to try to
restore some old furniture I had lying around. I should have consulted
him first! I ruined some peices I thought were just junk, but were
actually collectibles. When things got messy with glues, and non-right
angles, and everything done with hand-tools it all went very poorly.
I'll stick to carpentry when I decide to wrestle with wood.

Joseph

* My friend found that "antiques" that he made seemed to sell better
than the real article. Designers and interior architects would marvel
at the great "finds" that turned up in his shop, seemingly magically
in tune to their tastes. Once a few years after the fact he was
mortified to see one of his pieces featured on the cover of a catalog
for an upcoming auction at a prestigious auction house. Caveat Emptor!

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 22, 4:56*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Ig5GlZaBCskC&dq=EXPANDABLE+FOAM
>
> MESS? you're gassing the domestic animals cooking plastic in the
> kitchen oven and you're concerned with a little MEK? go with
> vinylester.
> rent shop space.

But all I want is some shoes that fit and aren't a huge pita to get/
make and don't cost a lot. Amortizing shop space inot my shoes, I
might as well just buy some $500 custom made ones.

Joseph

[datakoll]

OFF COURSE there is some humor lying about.
hey good luck right.
as I tried hammering into 'vortex,' if it was commercially viable,
someone wudda done it - if that path is an obvious experimental
choice.
my "inventions" are original tome, invented by another in a far off
ect (whathisname said Nascar mechanic for 'chainguard $2')... and what
I did was popularize or publicize an unearthed idea.
I sent my night vision system off for RBT xmas gifts. A killer app.
But neither totally original nor commercially viable. BUT appreciated
as I received cyberspace feedback.
a gestalt or umvelt approach to R&D projects.
URANUS CORP. employs for sifting thru the debris as this perspective.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 22, 6:26*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> OFF COURSE there is some humor lying about.
> hey good luck right.
> as I tried hammering into 'vortex,' if it was commercially viable,
> someone wudda done it - if that path is an obvious experimental
> choice.
> my "inventions" are original tome, invented by another in a far off
> ect (whathisname said Nascar mechanic for 'chainguard $2')... and what
> I did was popularize or publicize an unearthed idea.
> I sent my night vision system off for RBT xmas gifts. A killer app.
> But neither totally original nor commercially viable. BUT appreciated
> as I received cyberspace feedback.
> a gestalt or umvelt approach to R&D projects.
> URANUS CORP. employs for sifting thru the debris as this perspective.

In the old days shoes were easier to make in lots of real widths (not
just bogus widths like today). Small volume stuff like bike shoes is
even harder to justify making tooling for in multiple actual widths.
The potentially commercially viable part is custom cycling shoes that
don't cost a fortune. To my knowledge, the only custom shoes readily
available are from Rocket7. These are quite nice, but they conflate
custom with high-performance and light weight. What about custom but
with no serious emphasis on weight to keep the cost down?

The materials are secondary.

Not that I plan on selling my shoes or anything crazy like that.

Joseph

[datakoll]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO market
"What about custom but
with no serious emphasis on weight to keep the cost down?"
the act of CLIPPING IN defines the market.
If you're CLIPPING IN then you define your approach or as it were have
others define it for you. meme

you and I occupy the 99th percentile of height/foot size along with
Shaque and the boys. How many of us wanna CLIP IN? I don't - the hell
with it I say. Only thought of for really serious touring intentions
like across the front range...

If you the designer had time for developing the ultimate clip in
touring shoe... what would the point be? you'd need a mind buckling ad/
tech/spin/ruboff advantage to show off to net gain...

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 23, 12:47*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO market
> "What about custom but
> with no serious emphasis on weight to keep the cost down?"
> the act of CLIPPING IN defines the market.
> If you're CLIPPING IN then you define your approach or as it were have
> others define it for you. meme
>
> you and I occupy the 99th percentile of height/foot size along with
> Shaque and the boys. How many of us wanna CLIP IN? I don't - the hell
> with it I say. Only thought of for really serious touring intentions
> like across the front range...
>
> If you the designer had time for developing the ultimate clip in
> touring shoe... what would the point be? you'd need a mind buckling ad/
> tech/spin/ruboff advantage to show off to net gain...

If Sidi, Northwave, Lake, and Diadora make big (long) racing shoes,
somebody must be buying them. No way I'm the only guy in the world who
wants big clip-in shoes that fit but don't cost big custom bucks.

Joseph

[datakoll]

On Dec 23, 5:49*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 23, 12:47*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO market
> > "What about custom but
> > with no serious emphasis on weight to keep the cost down?"
> > the act of CLIPPING IN defines the market.
> > If you're CLIPPING IN then you define your approach or as it were have
> > others define it for you. meme
>
> > you and I occupy the 99th percentile of height/foot size along with
> > Shaque and the boys. How many of us wanna CLIP IN? I don't - the hell
> > with it I say. Only thought of for really serious touring intentions
> > like across the front range...
>
> > If you the designer had time for developing the ultimate clip in
> > touring shoe... what would the point be? you'd need a mind buckling ad/
> > tech/spin/ruboff advantage to show off to net gain...
>
> If Sidi, Northwave, Lake, and Diadora make big (long) racing shoes,
> somebody must be buying them. No way I'm the only guy in the world who
> wants big clip-in shoes that fit but don't cost big custom bucks.
>
> Joseph

uh, in what sizes are racing shoes made? 48 and smaller? that's 96%
and lower?
you have the numbers on that right?
but touring is less than racing caws of the clip in factor-an
unfounded opinion formed by interviewing clippers on their early
clipperhood marked by various lacerations, concussions, contusions and
blood transfusions as well as the usual life threatening bacterial
infectuons. racers ahve attitude...
another factor: large cyclists, weight lifters, may be more serious,
by and large, than the common run of slight cyclists. Pawsibley borne
out by the inverse, most large people are slothlike leaving athletic
large people...

I'd go with the two stage sole and LED with a TEVA revolution lace
over with your favorite sophistacted market related embroidery like a
swastika, penis or ya ya ...

[dabac]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> ...
> If Sidi, Northwave, Lake, and Diadora make big (*long*) racing shoes,
> somebody must be buying them. ...

You've got that right :-( I had to get two sizes bigger than ever
before to find a pair that was wide enough to offer toe-wiggle room in
my winter shoes. It feels like I've got about the same space available
in the tip of my shoes as I have in my saddle bag...


--
dabac

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 23, 5:13*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 23, 5:49*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 23, 12:47*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO market
> > > "What about custom but
> > > with no serious emphasis on weight to keep the cost down?"
> > > the act of CLIPPING IN defines the market.
> > > If you're CLIPPING IN then you define your approach or as it were have
> > > others define it for you. meme
>
> > > you and I occupy the 99th percentile of height/foot size along with
> > > Shaque and the boys. How many of us wanna CLIP IN? I don't - the hell
> > > with it I say. Only thought of for really serious touring intentions
> > > like across the front range...
>
> > > If you the designer had time for developing the ultimate clip in
> > > touring shoe... what would the point be? you'd need a mind buckling ad/
> > > tech/spin/ruboff advantage to show off to net gain...
>
> > If Sidi, Northwave, Lake, and Diadora make big (long) racing shoes,
> > somebody must be buying them. No way I'm the only guy in the world who
> > wants big clip-in shoes that fit but don't cost big custom bucks.
>
> > Joseph
>
> uh, in what sizes are racing shoes made? 48 and smaller? that's 96%
> and lower?
> you have the numbers on that right?
> but touring is less than racing caws of the clip in factor-an
> unfounded opinion formed by interviewing clippers on their early
> clipperhood marked by various lacerations, concussions, contusions and
> blood transfusions as well as the usual life threatening bacterial
> infectuons. racers ahve attitude...
> another factor: large cyclists, weight lifters, may be more serious,
> by and large, than the common run of slight cyclists. Pawsibley borne
> out by the inverse, most large people are slothlike leaving athletic
> large people...
>
> I'd go with the two stage sole and LED with a TEVA revolution lace
> over with your favorite sophistacted market related embroidery like a
> swastika, penis or ya ya ...

The manufacturers I mentioned all make up to size 50 and some to 52.
Since there are so many others making regular sizes, I'll bet those
few that make big shoes, sell proportionally more than the population
would suggest. In other words if size 50 is 1% of the population, I'm
sure size 50 accounts for more than 1% of Lake's sales.

I'll post pics when the shoes are done!

Joseph

[datakoll]

beyond 48 in stock not custom made? that's good news.

http://betterdot.blogspot.com/2006/10/life-in-99th-percentile.html

don't clog your brain with styrene!

MUKTUK!

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 27, 9:31*am, dabac <dabac.328...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com Wrote:
>
> > ...
> > If Sidi, Northwave, Lake, and Diadora make big (*long*) racing shoes,
> > somebody must be buying them. ...
>
> You've got that right :-( *I had to get two sizes bigger than ever
> before to find a pair that was wide enough to offer toe-wiggle room in
> my winter shoes. It feels like I've got about the same space available
> in the tip of my shoes as I have in my saddle bag...
>
> --
> dabac

Yeah, and those of us already at the top end of the scale are SOL in
terms of just getting them in a bigger size to get more width.

Thanks for the materials info.

Joseph

[datakoll]

blubber blubber blubber . yawl splay ruined the feet jogging, right?
a copper drill bit? HOLY FORSTNER!
try a red hot nail-try a red hot nail in your drill- hey! try a red
hot dRill bit ina drill.
I have the answer to the width problem but shall not elaborate
go thick clogger...

BENDING LEXAN CRACKS

[datakoll]

> * * * * * * * * * * * *BENDING *LEXAN *CRACKS

6mm? that's the boundry here maybe right?
go 10mm minimum-leaving room for the led strobes, battery case,
camera, ORGANIC MOLECULE ID UNIT...

there's PDF file from Barkcracker University on torturing wood fiber
in a steam press and no it's not a weekend project, actually it's
something of a handwringer.

[dabac]

datakoll Wrote:
> ..a copper drill bit? HOLY FORSTNER!

I did try to indicate that it wasn't really required, but it will do a
nicer job. Copper, and Lexan both share the machining characteristic of
creating really long shavings, which, dependent on the task at hand can
be a nuisance.
Using a specially ground tool bit, with another edge angle, will cause
the shavings to break up into chips rather than forming long strands.
The same grind will also diminish the materials tendency to grab and
auto-feed the tool.

datakoll Wrote:
> ..try a red hot nail..

For 6 mm the nail will require several smelly reheatings to get
through. I'll stick with the normal drill in that case, thanks.

datakoll Wrote:
> ..BENDING LEXAN CRACKS..
This is a pic of the snowshoe-style bindings that I made for my tour
skates. They fogged up pretty bad because I didn't have the patience to
dry them out prior to the bending experiment but I figured I'd try them
out before investing the effort in doing another pair "properly".
Despite being the result of a first attempt they've held together for
somewhere above 300 km so far, and they're still doing fine.
I realize 300 km isn't much applied to bike distances, but skating on
natural ice does have its own challenges, so I wouldn't be too worried
about bike usage.

[image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/dabac/skridsko/skridsko-sida.jpg]


--
dabac

[datakoll]

is there a runner/blade on the bottom?
the toe stays flat? a curved toe with an LED or silver bell...?

"dry them out"? what's dry them out mean?

I meant repeated bendings. Fog is usually pre-crack, no?

That's an odd use for lexan. Why not aluminum?

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 27, 3:23*pm, dabac <dabac.329...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> datakoll Wrote:
>
> > ..a copper drill bit? HOLY FORSTNER!
>
> I did try to indicate that it wasn't really required, but it will do a
> nicer job. Copper, and Lexan both share the machining characteristic of
> creating really long shavings, which, dependent on the task at hand can
> be a nuisance.
> Using a specially ground tool bit, with another edge angle, will cause
> the shavings to break up into chips rather than forming long strands.
> The same grind will also diminish the materials tendency to grab and
> auto-feed the tool.
>
> datakoll Wrote:
>
> > ..try a red hot nail..
>
> For 6 mm the nail will require several smelly reheatings to get
> through. I'll stick with the normal drill in that case, thanks.
>
> datakoll Wrote:> ..BENDING LEXAN CRACKS..
>
> This is a pic of the snowshoe-style bindings that I made for my tour
> skates. They fogged up pretty bad because I didn't have the patience to
> dry them out prior to the bending experiment but I figured I'd try them
> out before investing the effort in doing another pair "properly".
> Despite being the result of a first attempt they've held together for
> somewhere above 300 km so far, and they're still doing fine.
> I realize 300 km isn't much applied to bike distances, but skating on
> natural ice does have its own challenges, so I wouldn't be too worried
> about bike usage.
>
> [image:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/dabac/skridsko/skridsko-sida..jpg]
>
> --
> dabac

Those straps look suspiciously like they are from Biltema. Are those
skates home made too, or just the brackets?

As far as fogging goes, will fogging mask cracks? In other words, is
there any reason I should try to avoid fogging. Other than the LED's
of course ;-)

Joseph

[dabac]

datakoll Wrote:
> is there a runner/blade on the bottom?
Sure is, but they're all pretty much the same, so for the forum that
pic was originally taken they weren't particularly newsworthy.

datakoll Wrote:
> the toe stays flat?

Don't understand that question.

datakoll Wrote:
> a curved toe with an LED or silver bell...?

If that's where your fancy takes you, why not?

datakoll Wrote:
> what's dry them out mean?

Lexan is hygroscopic, or if it is hydroscopic? either way, it contains
moisture. If rushed immediately to bending temps this water will boil in
the material, causing foaming/fogging. If dried first, slowly at below
boil temps it remains clear when bent.

datakoll Wrote:
> Fog is usually pre-crack, no?

Usually sloppy prep, but maybe bending too, don't know.
datakoll Wrote:
> Why not aluminum?


you need fairly thick alu not to twist it all out of shape if you
inadvertently get your runner stuck in a crack in the ice, and I didn't
have any around. Lexan springs back more.


--
dabac

[datakoll]

you're pulling our leg again?
will fogging mask cracks?
"everything" fogs before it cracks.
try 12mm

[dabac]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> Those straps look suspiciously like they are from Biltema.
Could be, but I honestly don't know. They're a leftover from the skates
previous incarnation, that time with fixed-heel, snowboard binding style
ankle buckles. But hey, for something as basic as those straps I'm
entirely willing to trust even Biltemas sometimes questionable approach
to quality.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> Are those skates home made too, or just the brackets?
Just the brackets. There really isn't much that can be improved on the
actual runners and platforms. The bindings OTOH still offers room for
improvement and personal adaptation. The skates have been cut down some
though. They have less of a forward overhang and a somewhat shorter
length than original. Trades a bit of edge climbing ability for a more
compact format.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote:
> As far as fogging goes, will fogging mask cracks?
I suppose it could, but since the only cracks I've had were the result
of very obvious, singular and disastrous, dynamic overloads (i.e. falls
:) ) I really wouldn't know.
joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Wrote