backup set of wheels

[Mark Pryor]

hello,

Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
that derailleur settings are cross compatible?

I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28). The
cassette is 12-25.

I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace cs-7700
(12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.

The bike has no chain disc. The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
tightens properly, will I be OK without it?

My goal is for the derailleur settings to be the same for both so that
both wheelsets are interchangeable.

Thanks for your answer,
Mark

[Donald Gillies]

Mark Pryor <tlviewer@yahoo.com> writes:

>hello,

>Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
>that derailleur settings are cross compatible?

I think it's only realistic if both wheels have the same hubs. You
see, different hubs have different offsets / distances from the
dropout. Sad, but true. Also, there might be minor variations in
with two different types of cassets (i.e. tooth twisting, or spacer
offsets might vary.)

I'm not a cassette guy, since most of the benefits of cassettes (cog
interchangeability, customization) have been taken away by
manufacturer greed. To cover up their greed, they add one cog every
few year so that customers, in trying to keep up withe the upgrades,
won't notice they are being screwed ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Dec 17, 2:31 am, Mark Pryor <tlvie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> hello,
>
> Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
> that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>
> I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28). The
> cassette is 12-25.
>
> I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace cs-7700
> (12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.
>
> The bike has no chain disc. The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
> for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
> tightens properly, will I be OK without it?
>
> My goal is for the derailleur settings to be the same for both so that
> both wheelsets are interchangeable.

The "brake tracks" on the rims need to be as close to identical as
possible. No brake pads into tire sidewalls, IOW. Also, no large
difference in sidewall "slant" from vertical (perhaps not as common as
in previous eras), so you don't wind up with worn pads ("beveled")
that only work with one set of rims, and/or grab on the other,
especially when attempting a fast stop. Make that a *safe* (and still
seated) fast stop.

However you wind up accomplishing this, two or more sets of wheels
that are no-adjustment subs on the ridden bike or bikes is a
worthwhile goal-- because you can do the mechanical stuff at night
<g>.

Have you looked at the technical info areas on websites, as
applicable, for your three manufacturers? --D-y

[Bill Sornson]

Mark Pryor wrote:
> hello,
>
> Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and
> expect that derailleur settings are cross compatible?

Yes.

> I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28).
> The cassette is 12-25.
>
> I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace
> cs-7700 (12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.
>
> The bike has no chain disc. The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
> for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
> tightens properly, will I be OK without it?

Chain disc = spoke protector? Some Mavics come with a smaller plastic disc;
I tossed mine.

> My goal is for the derailleur settings to be the same for both so that
> both wheelsets are interchangeable.

I have two sets of wheels that I interchange regularly. No derailleur
adjustment needed; however, I do have to adjust the brakes a bit each time I
swap them.

Assuming your chain length is good for the 25, then going to a 23 shouldn't
be a problem.

Enjoy your new wheels!

Bill S.

[Werehatrack]

On 17 Dec 2007 08:31:16 GMT, Mark Pryor <tlviewer@yahoo.com> may have
said:

>hello,
>
>Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
>that derailleur settings are cross compatible?

With the same hub spacing on each, sure. I have a pair of rear wheels
that were both built with Deore XT hubs, and I can swap them without
having to readjust anything. With different hubs, not so much.

>I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28). The
>cassette is 12-25.
>
>I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace cs-7700
>(12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.

I tend to avoid Mavic hubs, so I haven't got any hands-on experience
to use as a guide in predicting if those will swap cleanly. My guess
is that there's probably going to be a little lateral difference; if
your rder cable adjustment can be done from either end, a couple of
turns at the shifter will probably set things right in any event...and
can be done on the fly if necessary.

>The bike has no chain disc. The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
>for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
>tightens properly, will I be OK without it?

Yes. The shim was probably included for people who will be using the
hub with a 7sp cassette, which requires it.

>My goal is for the derailleur settings to be the same for both so that
>both wheelsets are interchangeable.

I think you'll probably be OK, but the only way to find out for sure
is to mount up and ride.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Mark Pryor]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:31:16 +0000, Mark Pryor wrote:

> hello,
>
> Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and
> expect that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>
> I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28).
> The cassette is 12-25.
>
> I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace
> cs-7700 (12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.
>
> The bike has no chain disc. The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
> for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
> tightens properly, will I be OK without it?

Thanks for the all of the sincere, detailed response.

The rear Mavic wheel setup turned out to be easier than the front. The
Ritchey Aero Road wheels with Ritchey Zero hubs are similar enough to
Mavic that no derailleur changes were needed.

As suggested, I used the Mavic supplied spacer (before the Cassette). I
used a 15" crescent wrench to tighten the Shimano locknut. It seemed that
there was a built-in torque limiter, and the limit was reached before the
expected 40 N-M.

I had trouble with the front because of the Forte Lunar lights (.45mm
wall). The tube held overnight, but after the first 15 minute ride it
leaked air. The valve was fine, but there was a leak on the rear tube
wall , near the valve. I'm not experienced enough with tire/tube work to
handle such a thin walled tube and not damage it. I don't blame the tube.

Closing the foldable tires around the tubes gets very tough at the very
last 12 inches. I tried to do as much as I could with my hands, but
finally realized that tire irons were essential for the last few inches.
The second try on the front tire/tube went much faster via tire irons,
and I used the tube-shaken-with-baby-powder-in-paper-bag trick I saw on
YouTube.

My next set of tubes will be Forte Ultralights with .6mm wall thickness.

As suggested, I gave the brakes (Tektro) a careful adjust. They were
slightly off and started to stain the lower part of the new rims.

The Mavic hubs have adjustable bearings. I gave each wheel a gentle
side-2-side shake to feel for any free play. The rear was fine, but the
front needed a 1/4 to 1/2 turn with the supplied wrench.

At first I was unhappy with the Mavic skewers (they are not the Ti type),
but once I installed them, they seem fine. The Ti skewer purchased
separately is $45 more.

After a couple of adjusts (bearings, brakes, air pressure @100#) I went
for a 1 hour ride. Its 60F here with some cool wind. I had to stay on the
streets since all the river channel bike paths are locked off because of
yesterdays rain. The bike is negligibly lighter, but the response is
quicker with no noticeable flexing. I weighed the bike with the Ritchey
setup at 19 LBS. Its a Jamis Reynolds 520 frame.

It goes without saying that the bike looks sharper/better :)

--
Marks

[datakoll]

it'sno big deal to adjust the deray. try the Park's tool site for
advice or shledon brown or the library. but the wear factor could
annoy. using a worn cassette on the spare, a new cassette on the
runner with new chain, can give chain skip from the spare on the new
chain. so the parts need be relatively new or relatively old, mutually
worn. you may find skipp occurs only at the extremes of new and worn,
then the spare is usually useable.

[landotter]

On Dec 17, 5:37 am, gill...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> Mark Pryor <tlvie...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >hello,
> >Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
> >that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>
> I think it's only realistic if both wheels have the same hubs. You
> see, different hubs have different offsets / distances from the
> dropout. Sad, but true. Also, there might be minor variations in
> with two different types of cassets (i.e. tooth twisting, or spacer
> offsets might vary.)
>
> I'm not a cassette guy, since most of the benefits of cassettes (cog
> interchangeability, customization)

The main benefit of cassettes is bearing location.

>have been taken away by
> manufacturer greed. To cover up their greed, they add one cog every
> few year so that customers, in trying to keep up withe the upgrades,
> won't notice they are being screwed ...
>
Sram 8 speed cassettes + allen wrench and you can build custom in
minutes! Good stuff.

[amakyonin]

On Dec 17, 9:00 am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> The "brake tracks" on the rims need to be as close to identical as
> possible. No brake pads into tire sidewalls, IOW. Also, no large
> difference in sidewall "slant" from vertical (perhaps not as common as
> in previous eras), so you don't wind up with worn pads ("beveled")
> that only work with one set of rims, and/or grab on the other,
> especially when attempting a fast stop. Make that a *safe* (and still
> seated) fast stop.

IME, the biggest factor throwing off brake alignment is using wheels
with differing widths. This problem will depend somewhat on the type
of brakes, dual-pivots being the most troublesome. This is a bigger
hassle to deal with than having to adjust out a small misalignment on
the cassette.

[David L. Johnson]

dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> On Dec 17, 2:31 am, Mark Pryor <tlvie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> hello,
>>
>> Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
>> that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>>
>> I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28). The
>> cassette is 12-25.
>>
>> I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace cs-7700
>> (12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.
>>
>> The bike has no chain disc.

What on earth is a chain disc?

> The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
>> for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
>> tightens properly, will I be OK without it?

Try it and find out. I would hope that all Shimano-compatible hubs have
the same cassette positioning, but maybe not. It's easy enough to fix
with a shim, though, since ease of swapping wheels is the goal, right?

I do this all the time; I have a "flatland" wheel and a hilly-ride
wheel. But both are Campy hubs (that is, both are the same brand), and
so there is no problem with swapping them.

>>
>> My goal is for the derailleur settings to be the same for both so that
>> both wheelsets are interchangeable.

Sure.
>
> The "brake tracks" on the rims need to be as close to identical as
> possible. No brake pads into tire sidewalls, IOW.

Nonsense. The position of he braking flats on the wheel is determined
by the size --- all 700c's have the braking flats in exactly the same
position, just a couple mm short of the top of the rim, which is uniform
within less than 1 mm because they all have to take the same tires. No
way that a brake adjusted properly for one rim will be into the tire
sidewall of another. Cannot happen.

Also, no large
> difference in sidewall "slant" from vertical (perhaps not as common as
> in previous eras), so you don't wind up with worn pads ("beveled")
> that only work with one set of rims, and/or grab on the other,
> especially when attempting a fast stop. Make that a *safe* (and still
> seated) fast stop.

Again, not an issue. What might be an issue is the width of the rim,
which can vary. You can usually adjust for this with the brake barrel
adjuster, unless you have wildly different rims.

--

David L. Johnson

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by
little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Chalo]

landotter wrote:
>
> Donald Gillies wrote:
> >
> > I'm not a cassette guy, since most of the benefits of cassettes (cog
> > interchangeability, customization)
>
> The main benefit of cassettes is bearing location.

Which only matters if you have a tiny axle covered with notches, which
is what cassette hubs are stuck with. Freewheel hubs don't need to
have axles like that-- theirs can be up to 19mm in diameter. To put
it another way, when is the last time you saw or heard of axle
breakage or unusual bearing reliability problems with Phil Wood
freewheel hubs?

> Sram 8 speed cassettes + allen wrench and you can build custom in
> minutes! Good stuff.

That sounds like an expensive habit. Are loose sprockets available
for those cassettes?

I used to build up custom 12-38 Suntour Winner Pro 7-speed freewheels
by replacing only two or three sprockets with ones that I could buy
piecemeal. Thanks to the economical and totally satisfactory Shimano
Mega 7 11-34 freewheel, I don't have to do that anymore (which is
good, because I would have a hard time finding those parts now).

Chalo

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:27:22 -0800 (PST), landotter <landotter@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Sram 8 speed cassettes + allen wrench and you can build custom in
>minutes! Good stuff.

My Deore cassette same, and my Ultegra cassette may have a few
cogs-on-carrier sets but that's hardly due to manufacturer greed, and much
closer to client greed for gram saving. Same for the 'incompatibilities'
caused by non-matching ramps and stuff. Hardly manufacturer greed
oriented. And it's not like a set of cogs with non-matching ramps & stuff
won't shift -- they'll shift at least as well as unramped cogs do, just
not *better* than that.

Jasper

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:30:44 -0500, "David L. Johnson"
<david.johnson@lehigh.edu> wrote:

>dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
>> On Dec 17, 2:31 am, Mark Pryor <tlvie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> hello,
>>>
>>> Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
>>> that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>>>
>>> I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28). The
>>> cassette is 12-25.
>>>
>>> I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace cs-7700
>>> (12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.
>>>
>>> The bike has no chain disc.
>
>What on earth is a chain disc?

Dear David,

Probably just a plastic spoke protector, the clear disk often placed
between the chain and the spokes:


http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=395530786295&d=single&c=Misc-Stuff&sc=Spoke-Protectors&tc=&item_id=SP-FH3234

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Dec 17, 6:30 pm, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu>
wrote:
> dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
> > On Dec 17, 2:31 am, Mark Pryor <tlvie...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> hello,
>
> >> Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and expect
> >> that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>
> >> I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28). The
> >> cassette is 12-25.
>
> >> I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace cs-7700
> >> (12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.
>
> >> The bike has no chain disc.
>
> What on earth is a chain disc?
>
> > The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
> >> for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
> >> tightens properly, will I be OK without it?
>
> Try it and find out. I would hope that all Shimano-compatible hubs have
> the same cassette positioning, but maybe not. It's easy enough to fix
> with a shim, though, since ease of swapping wheels is the goal, right?
>
> I do this all the time; I have a "flatland" wheel and a hilly-ride
> wheel. But both are Campy hubs (that is, both are the same brand), and
> so there is no problem with swapping them.
>
>
>
> >> My goal is for the derailleur settings to be the same for both so that
> >> both wheelsets are interchangeable.
>
> Sure.
>
>
>
> > The "brake tracks" on the rims need to be as close to identical as
> > possible. No brake pads into tire sidewalls, IOW.
>
> Nonsense. The position of he braking flats on the wheel is determined
> by the size --- all 700c's have the braking flats in exactly the same
> position, just a couple mm short of the top of the rim, which is uniform
> within less than 1 mm because they all have to take the same tires. No
> way that a brake adjusted properly for one rim will be into the tire
> sidewall of another. Cannot happen.
>
> Also, no large
>
> > difference in sidewall "slant" from vertical (perhaps not as common as
> > in previous eras), so you don't wind up with worn pads ("beveled")
> > that only work with one set of rims, and/or grab on the other,
> > especially when attempting a fast stop. Make that a *safe* (and still
> > seated) fast stop.
>
> Again, not an issue. What might be an issue is the width of the rim,
> which can vary. You can usually adjust for this with the brake barrel
> adjuster, unless you have wildly different rims.

I didn't think about rim width (confession), not having used anything
wider than 20mm or so in a good long while (although there was still a
pair of 27" x 1-1/4" touring wheels in the fleet up 'till '99 or so).
I had a table of widths around here somewhere-- what commonly used
road rims, especially on factory-builts, are wide or narrow enough to
matter?

(Onward) I'm not familiar with any of the factory built wheels
currently available (more of a smile than a confession). Who knows (he
asked) with the wildly different marketing ooops technological
advances in design exhibited among the various popular choices, where
rim (brake track) layout has gone?

The "caution" does concern experience with (mostly) older rims. I
could list those I've used: Nisi Mixer, Campy Moskva (still in the
wrappers <g>, too different!), Sun Mistral, various box-section sewup
and clincher rims from Ambrosio, Super Champion, Campagnolo, Fiamme,
Wolber, Mavic. WIth the Mavics, whatever rim I had in there previously
(probably Wolber Alpine, could have been Campy), the brake pad rode a
little low for those Open 4CD's. Maybe my first adjustment wasn't
optimal? Add that to the mix.

So, yeah, "different enough", and there are several other "old" rims I
didn't use that would apply.

The caution also concerns heavily worn brake pads that gave problems
when switching to a rim they were not worn in on. Did I say that
earlier? That's where I seem to remember having real difficulties.

Adding, on a little reflection, one reason to get rims that are
compatible when switching is, you won't "blow" an adjustment to brake
pad alignment, especially (my favorite scenario) when you're already
late for the ride and find that tire that slow-leaked flat on you from
the day before.

Further adding, another advantage of using handbuilt wheels is, you
can use "all the same" rims on all your wheels, or at least on the
daily drivers. Personally, that goal is becoming reality.
--D-y

[Mark Pryor]

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:48:20 +0000, Mark Pryor wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:31:16 +0000, Mark Pryor wrote:
>
>> hello,
>>
>> Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and
>> expect that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>
> As suggested, I used the Mavic supplied spacer (before the Cassette). I
> used a 15" crescent wrench to tighten the Shimano locknut. It seemed
> that there was a built-in torque limiter, and the limit was reached
> before the expected 40 N-M.
>

Oops. It just occured to me that maybe I should have used a chain whip
to install along with a wrench on the locknut. I saw a few recipes for
cassette install and none mentioned opposing with a chain whip.

Did I miss something here?

Sure, I would use it for uninstall.

--
Mark

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Dec 19, 8:48 pm, Mark Pryor <tlvie...@VISTAyahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:31:16 +0000, Mark Pryor wrote:
> > hello,
>
> > Is it realistic to have 2 sets of wheels with mounted cassettes and
> > expect that derailleur settings are cross compatible?
>
> > I have a 9 speed shimano/tiagra bike with Richey Aero wheels (24/28).
> > The cassette is 12-25.
>
> > I'm ready to put together a Mavic SL wheelset (18/20) and Dura-ace
> > cs-7700 (12-23/9 speed)) cassette, with new tubes and Vredstein tires.
>
> > The bike has no chain disc. The rear Mavic hub came with an extra shim
> > for the cassette. My first attempt will be without this shim. If it
> > tightens properly, will I be OK without it?
>
> Thanks for the all of the sincere, detailed response.
>
> The rear Mavic wheel setup turned out to be easier than the front. The
> Ritchey Aero Road wheels with Ritchey Zero hubs are similar enough to
> Mavic that no derailleur changes were needed.
>
> As suggested, I used the Mavic supplied spacer (before the Cassette). I
> used a 15" crescent wrench to tighten the Shimano locknut. It seemed that
> there was a built-in torque limiter, and the limit was reached before the
> expected 40 N-M.
>
> I had trouble with the front because of the Forte Lunar lights (.45mm
> wall). The tube held overnight, but after the first 15 minute ride it
> leaked air. The valve was fine, but there was a leak on the rear tube
> wall , near the valve. I'm not experienced enough with tire/tube work to
> handle such a thin walled tube and not damage it. I don't blame the tube.
>
> Closing the foldable tires around the tubes gets very tough at the very
> last 12 inches. I tried to do as much as I could with my hands, but
> finally realized that tire irons were essential for the last few inches.
> The second try on the front tire/tube went much faster via tire irons,
> and I used the tube-shaken-with-baby-powder-in-paper-bag trick I saw on
> YouTube.
>
> My next set of tubes will be Forte Ultralights with .6mm wall thickness.
>
> As suggested, I gave the brakes (Tektro) a careful adjust. They were
> slightly off and started to stain the lower part of the new rims.
>
> The Mavic hubs have adjustable bearings. I gave each wheel a gentle
> side-2-side shake to feel for any free play. The rear was fine, but the
> front needed a 1/4 to 1/2 turn with the supplied wrench.
>
> At first I was unhappy with the Mavic skewers (they are not the Ti type),
> but once I installed them, they seem fine. The Ti skewer purchased
> separately is $45 more.
>
> After a couple of adjusts (bearings, brakes, air pressure @100#) I went
> for a 1 hour ride. Its 60F here with some cool wind. I had to stay on the
> streets since all the river channel bike paths are locked off because of
> yesterdays rain. The bike is negligibly lighter, but the response is
> quicker with no noticeable flexing. I weighed the bike with the Ritchey
> setup at 19 LBS. Its a Jamis Reynolds 520 frame.
>
> It goes without saying that the bike looks sharper/better :)

Did you say what tires you were using? (didn't seem to see that in
your posts)

I'm not "up" on which tires are looser fits, but certainly it seems
that of the tight fits I've seen, most were narrow (20mm) tires.
Larger (23mm or 25mm) might be easier to deal with in general, and
others might have a tire brand or two to suggest.

Object: not having to use tire levers, or at least not having the tire
so tight that pinching the tube is easy to do.

Thin tubes save a little weight, might give you a little nicer
response, but in my brief dalliance (gotta try everything once), not
worth the extra trouble. Use the largest tube that will fit in the
tire and go on the rim, so the tube is stretched as little as
possible, for longest tube life.

Bravo, sounds like you're in business. As a friend noted recently,
"you can never have too many good wheels". --D-y

[Jasper Janssen]

On 20 Dec 2007 04:27:08 GMT, Mark Pryor <tlviewer@VISTAyahoo.com> wrote:

> Oops. It just occured to me that maybe I should have used a chain whip
>to install along with a wrench on the locknut. I saw a few recipes for
>cassette install and none mentioned opposing with a chain whip.

You can oppose by holding the wheel without much problems, I would have
said. What did you mean by 'torque limiter'? Did stuff break?


Jasper