Water-out hole in the wrong place?

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG

http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG

[still just me]

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800 (PST), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
<dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:

>http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>
>http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG

Flow control: the outport is designed to only let the serious outflow
out when the frame fills to excessive levels. We do this with "land
architecture" and engineering terrain drainage systems all the time.
You want to maintain a certain level so the selected plant life can
properly grow and flourish.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Dec 19, 12:27 am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com>
wrote:
> http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>
> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG

It make a pleasant flute-like sound at speed. Water changes the pitch.

Joseph

[Gary Young]

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:

> http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>
> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG

In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge. You
drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then insert a
tube. I've never seen an example of this type of construction, but Tim
Paterek describes it in his framebuilding manual (p. 3-16).

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:23 -0600, Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
>
>> http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>>
>> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG
>
>In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge. You
>drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then insert a
>tube. I've never seen an example of this type of construction, but Tim
>Paterek describes it in his framebuilding manual (p. 3-16).

Dear Gary,

You may be right, but the hole would put the bridge awfully close to
the bottom bracket.

I'm not sure if the two uncaptioned pictures are of the same frame or
of different frames.

If they're the same frame (?), the first picture shows a chainstay
bridge in place and much further from the bottom bracket than the hole
in the chainstay in the second picture.

Whatever's going on, it's a good example of how a little explanation
and some better pictures would clear things up.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[A Muzi]

> dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
>> http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG

Gary Young wrote:
> In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge. You
> drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then insert a
> tube. I've never seen an example of this type of construction, but Tim
> Paterek describes it in his framebuilding manual (p. 3-16).

Cog Magazine centerfold this month for the most extreme example ever!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Gary Young]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:31:41 -0700, carlfogel wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:23 -0600, Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
>>
>>> http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>>>
>>> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG
>>
>>In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge. You
>>drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then insert a
>>tube. I've never seen an example of this type of construction, but Tim
>>Paterek describes it in his framebuilding manual (p. 3-16).
>
> Dear Gary,
>
> You may be right, but the hole would put the bridge awfully close to the
> bottom bracket.
>
> I'm not sure if the two uncaptioned pictures are of the same frame or of
> different frames.
>
> If they're the same frame (?), the first picture shows a chainstay
> bridge in place and much further from the bottom bracket than the hole
> in the chainstay in the second picture.

I think that's the seatstay bridge in the first photo, not the chainstay
bridge. It doesn't look like it's drilled for a brake, so maybe this is a
track bike -- in which case it wouldn't surprise me if the bike had very
short chainstays (and a bridge very close to the bottom bracket).
>
> Whatever's going on, it's a good example of how a little explanation and
> some better pictures would clear things up.

Agreed.

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Dec 19, 9:59 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:31:41 -0700, carlfogel wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:23 -0600, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
>
> >>>http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>
> >>>http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG
>
> >>In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge. You
> >>drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then insert a
> >>tube. I've never seen an example of this type of construction, but Tim
> >>Paterek describes it in his framebuilding manual (p. 3-16).
>
> > Dear Gary,
>
> > You may be right, but the hole would put the bridge awfully close to the
> > bottom bracket.
>
> > I'm not sure if the two uncaptioned pictures are of the same frame or of
> > different frames.
>
> > If they're the same frame (?), the first picture shows a chainstay
> > bridge in place and much further from the bottom bracket than the hole
> > in the chainstay in the second picture.
>
> I think that's the seatstay bridge in the first photo, not the chainstay
> bridge. It doesn't look like it's drilled for a brake, so maybe this is a
> track bike -- in which case it wouldn't surprise me if the bike had very
> short chainstays (and a bridge very close to the bottom bracket).
>
>
>
> > Whatever's going on, it's a good example of how a little explanation and
> > some better pictures would clear things up.
>
> Agreed.

Well, more pictures, but I don't know about explaining:

http://tinyurl.com/26svgq

--D-y

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:09:56 -0800 (PST), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
<dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:

>On Dec 19, 9:59 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:31:41 -0700, carlfogel wrote:
>> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:23 -0600, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
>>
>> >>>http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>>
>> >>>http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG
>>
>> >>In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge. You
>> >>drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then insert a
>> >>tube. I've never seen an example of this type of construction, but Tim
>> >>Paterek describes it in his framebuilding manual (p. 3-16).
>>
>> > Dear Gary,
>>
>> > You may be right, but the hole would put the bridge awfully close to the
>> > bottom bracket.
>>
>> > I'm not sure if the two uncaptioned pictures are of the same frame or of
>> > different frames.
>>
>> > If they're the same frame (?), the first picture shows a chainstay
>> > bridge in place and much further from the bottom bracket than the hole
>> > in the chainstay in the second picture.
>>
>> I think that's the seatstay bridge in the first photo, not the chainstay
>> bridge. It doesn't look like it's drilled for a brake, so maybe this is a
>> track bike -- in which case it wouldn't surprise me if the bike had very
>> short chainstays (and a bridge very close to the bottom bracket).
>>
>>
>>
>> > Whatever's going on, it's a good example of how a little explanation and
>> > some better pictures would clear things up.
>>
>> Agreed.
>
>Well, more pictures, but I don't know about explaining:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/26svgq
>
>--D-y

Dear D,

Well, at least it explains that Gary's right and that I was wrong
about the bridge--it's a seatstay bridge:

http://i7.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/cc/df/ac7d_12.JPG

I'm not sure what the auction shows about the mystery hole, which is
kinda-sorta further back from a bridgish-thingy:

http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_12.JPG

http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/bc7c_12.JPG

Maybe a very curved chainstay bridge went in through the hole?

http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/a6fe_12.JPG

I can't tell what's happening right behind the bottom bracket.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article <b312db5c-646c-4fd6-957b-f7aec7020e94
@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, dustoyevsky@mac.com says...

> Well, more pictures, but I don't know about explaining:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/26svgq

Yes, explanations there, too -- it does specify an open CS bridge and
open tube ends -- most builders either dome the tube ends or fill them
with spelter, but it's not really necessary if the joints are done well,
and it does save fractions of an ounce of filler.

--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

[Gary Young]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:32:32 -0700, carlfogel wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:09:56 -0800 (PST), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
> <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 19, 9:59 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:31:41 -0700, carlfogel wrote:
>>> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:23 -0600, Gary Young
>>> > <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>>>
>>> >>>http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG
>>>
>>> >>In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge.
>>> >>You drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then
>>> >>insert a tube. I've never seen an example of this type of
>>> >>construction, but Tim Paterek describes it in his framebuilding
>>> >>manual (p. 3-16).
>>>
>>> > Dear Gary,
>>>
>>> > You may be right, but the hole would put the bridge awfully close to
>>> > the bottom bracket.
>>>
>>> > I'm not sure if the two uncaptioned pictures are of the same frame
>>> > or of different frames.
>>>
>>> > If they're the same frame (?), the first picture shows a chainstay
>>> > bridge in place and much further from the bottom bracket than the
>>> > hole in the chainstay in the second picture.
>>>
>>> I think that's the seatstay bridge in the first photo, not the
>>> chainstay bridge. It doesn't look like it's drilled for a brake, so
>>> maybe this is a track bike -- in which case it wouldn't surprise me if
>>> the bike had very short chainstays (and a bridge very close to the
>>> bottom bracket).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Whatever's going on, it's a good example of how a little explanation
>>> > and some better pictures would clear things up.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>
>>Well, more pictures, but I don't know about explaining:
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/26svgq
>>
>>--D-y
>
> Dear D,
>
> Well, at least it explains that Gary's right and that I was wrong about
> the bridge--it's a seatstay bridge:
>
> http://i7.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/cc/df/ac7d_12.JPG
>
> I'm not sure what the auction shows about the mystery hole, which is
> kinda-sorta further back from a bridgish-thingy:
>
> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_12.JPG
>
> http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/bc7c_12.JPG

See the bit of blue inside the hole (bc7c_12.JPG)? That's the bridge --
just imagine driving a straight piece of tubing through both chainstays,
cutting the ends flush with the outside walls of the chainstays, and then
brazing it in place. It's like a tunnel through the chainstays. Because
of the presence of the tube, the chainstays themselves are just as much
sealed as on an ordinary frame. (The seatstays are a different matter,
and are probably open at both ends.)

>
> Maybe a very curved chainstay bridge went in through the hole?
>

What makes you think the chainstay bridge is curved?


> http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/a6fe_12.JPG
>
> I can't tell what's happening right behind the bottom bracket.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:39:34 -0800, <josh@phred.org> wrote:

>In article <b312db5c-646c-4fd6-957b-f7aec7020e94
>@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, dustoyevsky@mac.com says...
>
>> Well, more pictures, but I don't know about explaining:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/26svgq
>
>Yes, explanations there, too -- it does specify an open CS bridge and
>open tube ends -- most builders either dome the tube ends or fill them
>with spelter, but it's not really necessary if the joints are done well,
>and it does save fractions of an ounce of filler.

Dear Josh,

Aha! Lucky for me that someone read the text--I got sidetracked at the
pictures. It does indeed say open CS bridge, so Gary's right and my
doubts were just plain wrong.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:43:37 -0600, Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:32:32 -0700, carlfogel wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:09:56 -0800 (PST), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
>> <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Dec 19, 9:59 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:31:41 -0700, carlfogel wrote:
>>>> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:23 -0600, Gary Young
>>>> > <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>>http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>>>>
>>>> >>>http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG
>>>>
>>>> >>In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge.
>>>> >>You drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then
>>>> >>insert a tube. I've never seen an example of this type of
>>>> >>construction, but Tim Paterek describes it in his framebuilding
>>>> >>manual (p. 3-16).
>>>>
>>>> > Dear Gary,
>>>>
>>>> > You may be right, but the hole would put the bridge awfully close to
>>>> > the bottom bracket.
>>>>
>>>> > I'm not sure if the two uncaptioned pictures are of the same frame
>>>> > or of different frames.
>>>>
>>>> > If they're the same frame (?), the first picture shows a chainstay
>>>> > bridge in place and much further from the bottom bracket than the
>>>> > hole in the chainstay in the second picture.
>>>>
>>>> I think that's the seatstay bridge in the first photo, not the
>>>> chainstay bridge. It doesn't look like it's drilled for a brake, so
>>>> maybe this is a track bike -- in which case it wouldn't surprise me if
>>>> the bike had very short chainstays (and a bridge very close to the
>>>> bottom bracket).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Whatever's going on, it's a good example of how a little explanation
>>>> > and some better pictures would clear things up.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>>Well, more pictures, but I don't know about explaining:
>>>
>>>http://tinyurl.com/26svgq
>>>
>>>--D-y
>>
>> Dear D,
>>
>> Well, at least it explains that Gary's right and that I was wrong about
>> the bridge--it's a seatstay bridge:
>>
>> http://i7.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/cc/df/ac7d_12.JPG
>>
>> I'm not sure what the auction shows about the mystery hole, which is
>> kinda-sorta further back from a bridgish-thingy:
>>
>> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_12.JPG
>>
>> http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/bc7c_12.JPG
>
>See the bit of blue inside the hole (bc7c_12.JPG)? That's the bridge --
>just imagine driving a straight piece of tubing through both chainstays,
>cutting the ends flush with the outside walls of the chainstays, and then
>brazing it in place. It's like a tunnel through the chainstays. Because
>of the presence of the tube, the chainstays themselves are just as much
>sealed as on an ordinary frame. (The seatstays are a different matter,
>and are probably open at both ends.)
>
>>
>> Maybe a very curved chainstay bridge went in through the hole?
>>
>
>What makes you think the chainstay bridge is curved?
>
>
>> http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/a6fe_12.JPG
>>
>> I can't tell what's happening right behind the bottom bracket.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel

Dear Gary,

You may be right. I can't tell if that's the inside of a piece of
bridge tubing or just the far wall of the chainstay:

http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/bc7c_12.JPG

As for the curving, it looks to me as if the bridge piece in the
chainstay (if there is one--that's how unsure I am) has to be a curved
shape to end up so far forward from the hole (if it's going through
the hole):

http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_12.JPG

But now I wonder if maybe the camera angle is deceiving me.

Frustratingly, we could tell for sure in a second or two if we had the
actual bike. If I had to bet at this point, I'd bet on your
explanation.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:27:29 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:43:37 -0600, Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:32:32 -0700, carlfogel wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:09:56 -0800 (PST), "dustoyevsky@mac.com"
>>> <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Dec 19, 9:59 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:31:41 -0700, carlfogel wrote:
>>>>> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:23 -0600, Gary Young
>>>>> > <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:27:46 -0800, dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cc/df/ae8e_12.JPG
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_0.JPG
>>>>>
>>>>> >>In that second photo, the hole in the chainstay may be the bridge.
>>>>> >>You drill a hole through both walls of both chainstays and then
>>>>> >>insert a tube. I've never seen an example of this type of
>>>>> >>construction, but Tim Paterek describes it in his framebuilding
>>>>> >>manual (p. 3-16).
>>>>>
>>>>> > Dear Gary,
>>>>>
>>>>> > You may be right, but the hole would put the bridge awfully close to
>>>>> > the bottom bracket.
>>>>>
>>>>> > I'm not sure if the two uncaptioned pictures are of the same frame
>>>>> > or of different frames.
>>>>>
>>>>> > If they're the same frame (?), the first picture shows a chainstay
>>>>> > bridge in place and much further from the bottom bracket than the
>>>>> > hole in the chainstay in the second picture.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's the seatstay bridge in the first photo, not the
>>>>> chainstay bridge. It doesn't look like it's drilled for a brake, so
>>>>> maybe this is a track bike -- in which case it wouldn't surprise me if
>>>>> the bike had very short chainstays (and a bridge very close to the
>>>>> bottom bracket).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Whatever's going on, it's a good example of how a little explanation
>>>>> > and some better pictures would clear things up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>
>>>>Well, more pictures, but I don't know about explaining:
>>>>
>>>>http://tinyurl.com/26svgq
>>>>
>>>>--D-y
>>>
>>> Dear D,
>>>
>>> Well, at least it explains that Gary's right and that I was wrong about
>>> the bridge--it's a seatstay bridge:
>>>
>>> http://i7.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/cc/df/ac7d_12.JPG
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what the auction shows about the mystery hole, which is
>>> kinda-sorta further back from a bridgish-thingy:
>>>
>>> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_12.JPG
>>>
>>> http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/bc7c_12.JPG
>>
>>See the bit of blue inside the hole (bc7c_12.JPG)? That's the bridge --
>>just imagine driving a straight piece of tubing through both chainstays,
>>cutting the ends flush with the outside walls of the chainstays, and then
>>brazing it in place. It's like a tunnel through the chainstays. Because
>>of the presence of the tube, the chainstays themselves are just as much
>>sealed as on an ordinary frame. (The seatstays are a different matter,
>>and are probably open at both ends.)
>>
>>>
>>> Maybe a very curved chainstay bridge went in through the hole?
>>>
>>
>>What makes you think the chainstay bridge is curved?
>>
>>
>>> http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/a6fe_12.JPG
>>>
>>> I can't tell what's happening right behind the bottom bracket.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Carl Fogel
>
>Dear Gary,
>
>You may be right. I can't tell if that's the inside of a piece of
>bridge tubing or just the far wall of the chainstay:
>
> http://i24.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/cc/df/bc7c_12.JPG
>
>As for the curving, it looks to me as if the bridge piece in the
>chainstay (if there is one--that's how unsure I am) has to be a curved
>shape to end up so far forward from the hole (if it's going through
>the hole):
>
> http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/cc/df/b112_12.JPG
>
>But now I wonder if maybe the camera angle is deceiving me.
>
>Frustratingly, we could tell for sure in a second or two if we had the
>actual bike. If I had to bet at this point, I'd bet on your
>explanation.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

Never mind--you're right and I was wrong to doubt you.

I could have told for sure in a second without any frustration at all
if I'd read the text of the auction below the pictures.

Luckily, Josh has an adult attention span and pointed this out.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel