Photos and article on Shimano's wheel-building machines

[Thomas Hood]

Something for everyone here:

Article:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08
Gallery:
http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw


"Each and every wheel is fully handbuilt all the way from initial
lacing to final true and tension. "

"...the black art of wheel building."

"...though, he holds no formal engineering degree yet is in charge of
the company's Action Sports Division, which handles wheels in addition
to other key product lines."

"..wheels that just feel superb for reasons which no one seems to be
able to put a definitive finger on.
.... insists that a balance of all of the key players is crucial:
dependability, stiffness, compliance, torsional and lateral rigidity,
light weight, aerodynamics, and even price and style all factor in."

"the prestige of being a Dura-Ace wheel builder is a highly sought-
after position within the ranks: the room more closely resembles a
showroom than a factory, it's pleasingly quiet, and unlike the main
wheel building area, it's also air conditioned."

Tensiometers:
http://tinyurl.com/28hv45

Loctite:
http://tinyurl.com/2x8d48

....and saving the best 'til last:
http://tinyurl.com/yqqcbn

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:27:02 -0800 (PST), Thomas Hood
<thomas.hood@gmail.com> wrote:

>Something for everyone here:
>
>Article:
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08
>Gallery:
>http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw

Dear Thomas,

I love pictures like these of glove-wearing artisans:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/features/shimano_wheel_factory08/Shimano_wheel_factory_trip_hand_true_and_tension
or http://tinyurl.com/2l4kd7

Me, I put on mittens and galoshes and a football helmet before I work
on a bicycle wheel, but I suppose it's too hot for that in Malaysia.

I wonder if the gloves are supposed to prevent infection, to keep
fingerprints off the rims, to protect delicate skin from the road
grime that isn't on the wheels, to stop blistering from heaving on the
spoke wrenches, or just to give the illusion that it's all extremely
scientific and exquisitely professional

The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jan 10, 11:27*am, Thomas Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Something for everyone here:
>
> Article:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_whe...
> Gallery:http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw
>
> "Each and every wheel is fully handbuilt all the way from initial
> lacing to final true and tension. "
>
> "...the black art of wheel building."
>
> "...though, he holds no formal engineering degree yet is in charge of
> the company's Action Sports Division, which handles wheels in addition
> to other key product lines."
>
> "..wheels that just feel superb for reasons which no one seems to be
> able to put a definitive finger on.
> ... insists that a balance of all of the key players is crucial:
> dependability, stiffness, compliance, torsional and lateral rigidity,
> light weight, aerodynamics, and even price and style all factor in."
>
> "the prestige of being a Dura-Ace wheel builder is a highly sought-
> after position within the ranks: the room more closely resembles a
> showroom than a factory, it's pleasingly quiet, and unlike the main
> wheel building area, it's also air conditioned."
>
> Tensiometers:http://tinyurl.com/28hv45
>
> Loctite:http://tinyurl.com/2x8d48
>
> ...and saving the best 'til last:http://tinyurl.com/yqqcbn

Tensiometers! Loctite! Carbon Fiber! All in one wheel!!!

Are you trying to give Brandt a stroke? ;-)

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Thomas Hood writes:

> Something for everyone here:

> Article:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08

> Gallery:

> http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw


> "Each and every wheel is fully hand built all the way from initial
> lacing to final true and tension. "

> "...the black art of wheel building."

> "...though, he holds no formal engineering degree yet is in charge
> of the company's Action Sports Division, which handles wheels in
> addition to other key product lines."

> "..wheels that just feel superb for reasons which no one seems to be
> able to put a definitive finger on.

> ... insists that a balance of all of the key players is crucial:
> dependability, stiffness, compliance, torsional and lateral
> rigidity, light weight, aerodynamics, and even price and style all
> factor in."

> "the prestige of being a Dura-Ace wheel builder is a highly sought-
> after position within the ranks: the room more closely resembles a
> showroom than a factory, it's pleasingly quiet, and unlike the main
> wheel building area, it's also air conditioned."

I find odd that Shimano chose to hand build wheels when machine
building is about 10x faster and requires appropriately fewer
employees. Therefore, either labor costs in Malaysia are low enough
that the cost of wheel building machines and their maintenance is
greater, or they have no faith in machines. Most good bicycle shops
who find that machine built wheels are too loose, finish tightening
and truing by hand, a trivial step for machine built wheels.

I look forward to next year's InterBike show to see whether Holland
Mechanics finally implemented the modification I proposed when I first
saw their machine at Wheelsmith, when the shop was in Palo Alto.
Instead of adding the feature, they invented SpokePrep to cover for a
wheel with insufficient tension, the failing of most machine built
wheels.

That this was a problem was obvious when the Robot went into infinite
replays as tension increased, spoke twist falsifying most adjustments.
So they built loose wheels in order to get true wheels and used
SpokePrep to cover for that. Having build low spoke-count wheels with
thin spokes, I encountered this problem years before, and got around
it by unloading the spoke to be adjusted. I did that by pulling the
rim toward the side of that spoke. However, Holland Mechanics can do
that even better with a pneumatic piston pressing radially against the
rim at the spoke being adjusted, requiring deflections of less than
two tenths of a mm.

That machine built wheels got a bad name is a serious error on the
part of makers of these machine. To me the wheel building machine is
still in its test period, its final configuration still waiting. When
they do that, we won't complain about machine built wheels but will
watch out for poorly hand built wheels.

Jobst Brandt

[jim beam]

Thomas Hood wrote:
> Something for everyone here:
>
> Article:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08
> Gallery:
> http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw
>
>
> "Each and every wheel is fully handbuilt all the way from initial
> lacing to final true and tension. "
>
> "...the black art of wheel building."
>
> "...though, he holds no formal engineering degree yet is in charge of
> the company's Action Sports Division, which handles wheels in addition
> to other key product lines."
>
> "..wheels that just feel superb for reasons which no one seems to be
> able to put a definitive finger on.
> ... insists that a balance of all of the key players is crucial:
> dependability, stiffness, compliance, torsional and lateral rigidity,
> light weight, aerodynamics, and even price and style all factor in."
>
> "the prestige of being a Dura-Ace wheel builder is a highly sought-
> after position within the ranks: the room more closely resembles a
> showroom than a factory, it's pleasingly quiet, and unlike the main
> wheel building area, it's also air conditioned."
>
> Tensiometers:
> http://tinyurl.com/28hv45
>
> Loctite:
> http://tinyurl.com/2x8d48
>
> ...and saving the best 'til last:
> http://tinyurl.com/yqqcbn
>

great post.

[Mark]

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:27:02 -0800 (PST), Thomas Hood
> <thomas.hood@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Something for everyone here:
>>
>> Article:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08
>> Gallery:
>> http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw
>
> Dear Thomas,
>
> I love pictures like these of glove-wearing artisans:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/features/shimano_wheel_factory08/Shimano_wheel_factory_trip_hand_true_and_tension
> or http://tinyurl.com/2l4kd7
>
> Me, I put on mittens and galoshes and a football helmet before I work
> on a bicycle wheel, but I suppose it's too hot for that in Malaysia.
>
> I wonder if the gloves are supposed to prevent infection, to keep
> fingerprints off the rims, to protect delicate skin from the road
> grime that isn't on the wheels, to stop blistering from heaving on the
> spoke wrenches, or just to give the illusion that it's all extremely
> scientific and exquisitely professional

I'm guessing it's the fingerprints; when you're selling a boutique item,
it needs to be shiny. Or, paraphrasing Sutherland's manual, "when
working on a three-speed hub, be sure to polish the shell. It's the
only part the customer will ever see."

Mark J.

[limeylew@gmail.com]

On Jan 10, 11:53 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:27:02 -0800 (PST), Thomas Hood
>
> <thomas.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Something for everyone here:
>
> >Article:
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_whe...
> >Gallery:
> >http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw
>
> Dear Thomas,
>
> I love pictures like these of glove-wearing artisans:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/features/shi...
> orhttp://tinyurl.com/2l4kd7
>
> Me, I put on mittens and galoshes and a football helmet before I work
> on a bicycle wheel, but I suppose it's too hot for that in Malaysia.
>
> I wonder if the gloves are supposed to prevent infection, to keep
> fingerprints off the rims, to protect delicate skin from the road
> grime that isn't on the wheels, to stop blistering from heaving on the
> spoke wrenches, or just to give the illusion that it's all extremely
> scientific and exquisitely professional
>
> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Maybe gloves are to stop them from picking their noses. I know I find
that really difficult to do with gloves on. :-)

Lewis.

*****

[A Muzi]

> Thomas Hood <thomas.hood@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Something for everyone here:
>> Article:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08
>> Gallery:
>> http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> I love pictures like these of glove-wearing artisans:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/features/shimano_wheel_factory08/Shimano_wheel_factory_trip_hand_true_and_tension
> or http://tinyurl.com/2l4kd7
> Me, I put on mittens and galoshes and a football helmet before I work
> on a bicycle wheel, but I suppose it's too hot for that in Malaysia.
> I wonder if the gloves are supposed to prevent infection, to keep
> fingerprints off the rims, to protect delicate skin from the road
> grime that isn't on the wheels, to stop blistering from heaving on the
> spoke wrenches, or just to give the illusion that it's all extremely
> scientific and exquisitely professional
> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.

"Picture Day"
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Luke Forward]

On Jan 11, 1:53*am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Those DA wheelsets don't have spoke which crosses(or interlaces?) each
other therefore no need for being squeezd.
My experience on radial lacing is that spoke twists less comparing to
X3 and queezing nearly does nothing.

[A Muzi]

>> Thomas Hood <thomas.hood@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Something for everyone here:
>>> Article:
>>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08
>>> Gallery:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw

> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> I love pictures like these of glove-wearing artisans:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/features/shimano_wheel_factory08/Shimano_wheel_factory_trip_hand_true_and_tension
>> or http://tinyurl.com/2l4kd7
>> Me, I put on mittens and galoshes and a football helmet before I work
>> on a bicycle wheel, but I suppose it's too hot for that in Malaysia.
>> I wonder if the gloves are supposed to prevent infection, to keep
>> fingerprints off the rims, to protect delicate skin from the road
>> grime that isn't on the wheels, to stop blistering from heaving on the
>> spoke wrenches, or just to give the illusion that it's all extremely
>> scientific and exquisitely professional

Mark wrote:
> I'm guessing it's the fingerprints; when you're selling a boutique item,
> it needs to be shiny. Or, paraphrasing Sutherland's manual, "when
> working on a three-speed hub, be sure to polish the shell. It's the
> only part the customer will ever see."

Yes, always a good habit. The Master of Lucas, Jack Buellesbach, always
finished rebuilds with a scrub and flat black paint on any fuel pump,
starter or whatever. It was still Lucas, but looked as if it were
functional or at least that care was taken.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Sherman]

limeylew@gmail.com aka Lewis Campbell wrote:
> ...
> Maybe gloves are to stop them from picking their noses. I know I find
> that really difficult to do with gloves on. :-)

Way too much information!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

[treynolds@my-deja.com]

On Jan 10, 11:42*am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > *Thomas *Hood <thomas.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Something for everyone here:
>
> "Picture Day"
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>

Did you notice in the picture of the Dura Ace wheel build room that
there are full size mirrors on the back wall. Why would they want
large mirrors? My only thought was that they are one-way mirrors.

[jim beam]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Thomas Hood writes:
>
>> Something for everyone here:
>
>> Article:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/shimano_wheel_factory08
>
>> Gallery:
>
>> http://tinyurl.com/2e5vfw
>
>
>> "Each and every wheel is fully hand built all the way from initial
>> lacing to final true and tension. "
>
>> "...the black art of wheel building."
>
>> "...though, he holds no formal engineering degree yet is in charge
>> of the company's Action Sports Division, which handles wheels in
>> addition to other key product lines."
>
>> "..wheels that just feel superb for reasons which no one seems to be
>> able to put a definitive finger on.
>
>> ... insists that a balance of all of the key players is crucial:
>> dependability, stiffness, compliance, torsional and lateral
>> rigidity, light weight, aerodynamics, and even price and style all
>> factor in."
>
>> "the prestige of being a Dura-Ace wheel builder is a highly sought-
>> after position within the ranks: the room more closely resembles a
>> showroom than a factory, it's pleasingly quiet, and unlike the main
>> wheel building area, it's also air conditioned."
>
> I find odd that Shimano chose to hand build wheels when machine
> building is about 10x faster and requires appropriately fewer
> employees. Therefore, either labor costs in Malaysia are low enough
> that the cost of wheel building machines and their maintenance is
> greater, or they have no faith in machines. Most good bicycle shops
> who find that machine built wheels are too loose, finish tightening
> and truing by hand, a trivial step for machine built wheels.
>
> I look forward to next year's InterBike show to see whether Holland
> Mechanics finally implemented the modification I proposed when I first
> saw their machine at Wheelsmith, when the shop was in Palo Alto.
> Instead of adding the feature, they invented SpokePrep to cover for a
> wheel with insufficient tension, the failing of most machine built
> wheels.

your opinion of "insufficient tension" is bull**** jobst.

1. you haven't done the math on tension drop for lateral loading on the
nds of a fully dished modern wheel - it's almost impossible to achieve a
condition where the spokes cannot be fully de-tensioned, simply because
of the extreme bracing angle.

2. you don't understand the fact that spoke tension is a function of the
rim's ability to withstand it - you can't just increase spoke tension
arbitrarily and it have no consequences.

3. excess tension achieves nothing for the wheel structure and kills
rims - /that/ is where thread lock comes from.


>
> That this was a problem was obvious when the Robot went into infinite
> replays as tension increased, spoke twist falsifying most adjustments.

that is an implementation problem, not a fundamental problem with using
a machine.


> So they built loose wheels in order to get true wheels and used
> SpokePrep to cover for that.

bull****. see above.


> Having build low spoke-count wheels with
> thin spokes, I encountered this problem years before, and got around
> it by unloading the spoke to be adjusted. I did that by pulling the
> rim toward the side of that spoke. However, Holland Mechanics can do
> that even better with a pneumatic piston pressing radially against the
> rim at the spoke being adjusted, requiring deflections of less than
> two tenths of a mm.

state the whoop de doo freakin' obvious whydontcha.

>
> That machine built wheels got a bad name is a serious error on the
> part of makers of these machine. To me the wheel building machine is
> still in its test period, its final configuration still waiting. When
> they do that, we won't complain about machine built wheels but will
> watch out for poorly hand built wheels.

quit your whining. better yet, go ahead, design, build and market your
own. don't forget to do the math on the spoke tension - and take spoke
gauge into account when you're doing it this time.

[Ben C]

On 2008-01-11, Luke Forward <lukefoward@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 11, 1:53*am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
>> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
>> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
> Those DA wheelsets don't have spoke which crosses(or interlaces?) each
> other therefore no need for being squeezd.

That's not the purpose of that black art, at least not according to
Western orthodoxy. It is to expel demons from the spoke elbow area.

The fact that these straight-pull spokes have no elbows may be more
important.

But Mr Wheel, Shinpei Okajima may have other theories.

Anyway they do have crossings don't they?

> My experience on radial lacing is that spoke twists less comparing to
> X3 and queezing nearly does nothing.

Interesting. I've never tried radial lacing, but I would have expected
to get the twisting problem just the same.

[Michael Johnson]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-01-11, Luke Forward <lukefoward@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 11, 1:53 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
>>> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
>>> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Carl Fogel
>> Those DA wheelsets don't have spoke which crosses(or interlaces?) each
>> other therefore no need for being squeezd.
>
> Anyway they do have crossings don't they?

They do, in the sense that one spoke passes behind (or in front of, a
matter of perspective) another, but they don't touch, due to the way
that the hub is constructed.

>> My experience on radial lacing is that spoke twists less comparing to
>> X3 and queezing nearly does nothing.
>
> Interesting. I've never tried radial lacing, but I would have expected
> to get the twisting problem just the same.

I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the threads
caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of lubrication that causes
spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread compound combats wind-up by
lubricating the threads during tensioning and truing. Aside from
aerodynamics (which I have no solid information about) a good reason for
using bladed spokes (as Shimano does) is that spoke wind-up is both
visually obvious and easily remedied.

I don't think, personally, that squeezing spokes does a darned thing
with respect to spoke wind-up. All you're doing is momentarily
/increasing/ the tension load on the spokes, which does not relieve
spoke wind-up. Maybe when you release the spokes, there will be a brief
moment when the threads will be unloaded as the spoke springs back /if/
the rim doesn't pull the nipple back quite as quickly, but unloading the
spokes by pressing down on the rim normal to the plane of the wheel is a
much more effective way of doing this.

However, squeezing the spokes (or even more so, using Sheldon's trick of
levering the spokes with an old crank arm) would have the effect of
pre-stretching the spokes, much like giving the cables a good pull after
installing them. This might (and I have no scientific data to back this
up) have the effect of preventing later stretching of the spokes.

Mike Johnson

[Ben C]

On 2008-01-11, Michael Johnson <michaelj@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
>> On 2008-01-11, Luke Forward <lukefoward@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 11, 1:53 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
>>>> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
>>>> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Carl Fogel
>>> Those DA wheelsets don't have spoke which crosses(or interlaces?) each
>>> other therefore no need for being squeezd.
>>
>> Anyway they do have crossings don't they?
>
> They do, in the sense that one spoke passes behind (or in front of, a
> matter of perspective) another, but they don't touch, due to the way
> that the hub is constructed.

I see what you mean. Actually that hub looks like a very elegant design
altogether.

>>> My experience on radial lacing is that spoke twists less comparing to
>>> X3 and queezing nearly does nothing.
>>
>> Interesting. I've never tried radial lacing, but I would have expected
>> to get the twisting problem just the same.
>
> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the threads
> caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of lubrication that causes
> spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread compound combats wind-up by
> lubricating the threads during tensioning and truing. Aside from
> aerodynamics (which I have no solid information about) a good reason for
> using bladed spokes (as Shimano does) is that spoke wind-up is both
> visually obvious and easily remedied.
>
> I don't think, personally, that squeezing spokes does a darned thing
> with respect to spoke wind-up. All you're doing is momentarily
> /increasing/ the tension load on the spokes, which does not relieve
> spoke wind-up.

You do get a bit of a pinging noise nonetheless so I think it does work
a bit (at releasing wind-up).

I tend to use the push-down-on-a-block-of-wood method, which releases
windup very well probably because it makes half the spokes go
momentarily slacker.

> Maybe when you release the spokes, there will be a brief
> moment when the threads will be unloaded as the spoke springs back /if/
> the rim doesn't pull the nipple back quite as quickly, but unloading the
> spokes by pressing down on the rim normal to the plane of the wheel is a
> much more effective way of doing this.

Yup, that's the way to do it I think.

> However, squeezing the spokes (or even more so, using Sheldon's trick of
> levering the spokes with an old crank arm) would have the effect of
> pre-stretching the spokes, much like giving the cables a good pull after
> installing them. This might (and I have no scientific data to back this
> up) have the effect of preventing later stretching of the spokes.

I don't think pre-stretching them would stop them stretching later. That
might work with wound-up cables by somehow crushing the individual wires
together better, but it shouldn't have any effect with a single steel
wire like a spoke.

And they shouldn't stretch later anyway since (a) they aren't supposed
to ever get any tighter than they were the day you built them, and (b),
even if they did, it takes a lot of force to make a spoke longer by
stretching it.

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Michael Johnson writes:

>>>> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
>>>> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
>>>> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.

>>> Those DA wheelsets don't have spoke which crosses(or interlaces?)
>>> each other therefore no need for being squeezd.

>> Anyway they do have crossings don't they?

> They do, in the sense that one spoke passes behind (or in front of,
> a matter of perspective) another, but they don't touch, due to the
> way that the hub is constructed.

>>> My experience on radial lacing is that spoke twists less comparing
>>> to X3 and queezing nearly does nothing.

I'm kind of queasy about that too, but stress relief effects both ends
of the spoke, threads included. Threads are cold formed and have
residual compressive and tensile stresses.

>> Interesting. I've never tried radial lacing, but I would have
>> expected to get the twisting problem just the same.

> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the
> threads caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of lubrication
> that causes spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread compound combats
> wind-up by lubricating the threads during tensioning and truing.

Lubrication helps reduce wind-up but at higher tension, windup,
especially on tightening, is caused by torque proportional to thread
pitch diameter and slope (thread pitch). Windup always occurs but
only causes problems during truing at final tension.

> Aside from aerodynamics (which I have no solid information about) a
> good reason for using bladed spokes (as Shimano does) is that spoke
> wind-up is both visually obvious and easily remedied.

That isn't as simple as it seems depending on how flat the blade is
with respect to the round part. Holding spokes with an adjustable
wrench on the flat part, for instance, causes twist in the transition
to the round part that, although not visible, leaves a high stress
location that, if not stress relieved, can lead to failure.

> I don't think, personally, [oops! how else do you think?] that
> squeezing spokes does a darned thing with respect to spoke wind-up.

There are those on this newsgroup who resist the concept of mechanical
stress reduction or that residual stress occurs in spokes. On
occasion they try to redefine stress relief as "bedding-in", twist
reduction and doing nothing. Stretching spokes manually or by
machine, as Trek does, has the purpose of spoke stress relief for
residual stress from manufacture and spoke lacing/alignment.

> All you're doing is momentarily /increasing/ the tension load on the
> spokes, which does not relieve spoke wind-up. Maybe when you
> release the spokes, there will be a brief moment when the threads
> will be unloaded as the spoke springs back /if/ the rim doesn't pull
> the nipple back quite as quickly, but unloading the spokes by
> pressing down on the rim normal to the plane of the wheel is a much
> more effective way of doing this.

The belief that it relieves twist is that while over-tensioning one
spoke, the neighbor is usually relaxed, and this reduction in load can
allow that spoke to untwist. As I have said, the clicking sound one
might hear during stress relief is a sign that spokes were not
properly un-twisted during truing. That can be done by giving a small
reverse twist after over shooting the adjustment bay an equal amount
that is graphically described in "the Bicycle Wheel".

http://www.avocet.com/wheelbook/wheelbook.html

> However, squeezing the spokes (or even more so, using Sheldon's
> trick of levering the spokes with an old crank arm) would have the
> effect of pre-stretching the spokes, much like giving the cables a
> good pull after installing them. This might (and I have no
> scientific data to back this up) have the effect of preventing later
> stretching of the spokes.

Spokes do not plastically stretch in use, during stress relief, or
over time, so that is not the reason. Momentarily over-tensioning
spokes will cause yield at locations of high stress without materially
stretching the spoke, because those locations are microscopically
small and an insignificant length of a spoke.

Jobst Brandt

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-01-11, Michael Johnson <michaelj@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:
>>> On 2008-01-11, Luke Forward <lukefoward@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 11, 1:53 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>>> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
>>>>> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
>>>>> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl Fogel
>>>> Those DA wheelsets don't have spoke which crosses(or interlaces?) each
>>>> other therefore no need for being squeezd.
>>> Anyway they do have crossings don't they?
>> They do, in the sense that one spoke passes behind (or in front of, a
>> matter of perspective) another, but they don't touch, due to the way
>> that the hub is constructed.
>
> I see what you mean. Actually that hub looks like a very elegant design
> altogether.
>
>>>> My experience on radial lacing is that spoke twists less comparing to
>>>> X3 and queezing nearly does nothing.
>>> Interesting. I've never tried radial lacing, but I would have expected
>>> to get the twisting problem just the same.
>> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the threads
>> caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of lubrication that causes
>> spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread compound combats wind-up by
>> lubricating the threads during tensioning and truing. Aside from
>> aerodynamics (which I have no solid information about) a good reason for
>> using bladed spokes (as Shimano does) is that spoke wind-up is both
>> visually obvious and easily remedied.
>>
>> I don't think, personally, that squeezing spokes does a darned thing
>> with respect to spoke wind-up. All you're doing is momentarily
>> /increasing/ the tension load on the spokes, which does not relieve
>> spoke wind-up.
>
> You do get a bit of a pinging noise nonetheless so I think it does work
> a bit (at releasing wind-up).
>
> I tend to use the push-down-on-a-block-of-wood method, which releases
> windup very well probably because it makes half the spokes go
> momentarily slacker.
>
>> Maybe when you release the spokes, there will be a brief
>> moment when the threads will be unloaded as the spoke springs back /if/
>> the rim doesn't pull the nipple back quite as quickly, but unloading the
>> spokes by pressing down on the rim normal to the plane of the wheel is a
>> much more effective way of doing this.
>
> Yup, that's the way to do it I think.
>
>> However, squeezing the spokes (or even more so, using Sheldon's trick of
>> levering the spokes with an old crank arm) would have the effect of
>> pre-stretching the spokes, much like giving the cables a good pull after
>> installing them. This might (and I have no scientific data to back this
>> up) have the effect of preventing later stretching of the spokes.
>
> I don't think pre-stretching them would stop them stretching later. That
> might work with wound-up cables by somehow crushing the individual wires
> together better, but it shouldn't have any effect with a single steel
> wire like a spoke.
>
> And they shouldn't stretch later anyway since (a) they aren't supposed
> to ever get any tighter than they were the day you built them, and (b),
> even if they did, it takes a lot of force to make a spoke longer by
> stretching it.

spokes [when tensioned to typical rim manufacturers spec at any rate]
are only usually tensioned to 1/3 yield. spoke tension /does/ increase
in use, lateral loading for example.

[jim beam]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Johnson writes:
>
>>>>> The gloves don't look heavy enough to protect the hands if spoke pairs
>>>>> are being squeezed hard, but then there don't seem to be any pictures
>>>>> of that black art on these straight-pull spokes.
>
>>>> Those DA wheelsets don't have spoke which crosses(or interlaces?)
>>>> each other therefore no need for being squeezd.
>
>>> Anyway they do have crossings don't they?
>
>> They do, in the sense that one spoke passes behind (or in front of,
>> a matter of perspective) another, but they don't touch, due to the
>> way that the hub is constructed.
>
>>>> My experience on radial lacing is that spoke twists less comparing
>>>> to X3 and queezing nearly does nothing.
>
> I'm kind of queasy about that too, but stress relief effects both ends
> of the spoke, threads included. Threads are cold formed and have
> residual compressive and tensile stresses.

yeah. so where exactly are the compressive ones? and would you want to
remove them? let's see if you know what you're talking about!



>
>>> Interesting. I've never tried radial lacing, but I would have
>>> expected to get the twisting problem just the same.
>
>> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the
>> threads caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of lubrication
>> that causes spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread compound combats
>> wind-up by lubricating the threads during tensioning and truing.
>
> Lubrication helps reduce wind-up but at higher tension, windup,
> especially on tightening, is caused by torque proportional to thread
> pitch diameter and slope (thread pitch).

you're confused. high friction and zero tension causes windup. high
tension and no friction does not cause windup. get your facts straight.

> Windup always occurs but
> only causes problems during truing at final tension.
>
>> Aside from aerodynamics (which I have no solid information about) a
>> good reason for using bladed spokes (as Shimano does) is that spoke
>> wind-up is both visually obvious and easily remedied.
>
> That isn't as simple as it seems depending on how flat the blade is
> with respect to the round part. Holding spokes with an adjustable
> wrench on the flat part, for instance, causes twist in the transition
> to the round part that, although not visible, leaves a high stress
> location that, if not stress relieved, can lead to failure.

cite one single failure - just one. then show us your analysis.

suppositional bull**** attributing a failure mechanism to something that
doesn't exist is absolutely ridiculous.


>
>> I don't think, personally, [oops! how else do you think?] that
>> squeezing spokes does a darned thing with respect to spoke wind-up.
>
> There are those on this newsgroup who resist the concept of mechanical
> stress reduction or that residual stress occurs in spokes.

that's rich! what about those that attribute fatigue failure to
residual stress when it is observed not to be the case? or put another
way, why do manufacturers address a whole different failure mechanism
[at considerable additional expense] and achieve measurable results with
it? absolutely damn-all point spending money on a materials solution if
a "residual stress" solution can fix the alleged problem for free.


> On
> occasion they try to redefine stress relief as "bedding-in", twist
> reduction and doing nothing. Stretching spokes manually or by
> machine, as Trek does, has the purpose of spoke stress relief for
> residual stress from manufacture and spoke lacing/alignment.

build a wheel without "stress relief", and see how true it stays.
[clue: it doesn't.] then tell us that spokes don't bed in when
over-stressed.



>
>> All you're doing is momentarily /increasing/ the tension load on the
>> spokes, which does not relieve spoke wind-up. Maybe when you
>> release the spokes, there will be a brief moment when the threads
>> will be unloaded as the spoke springs back /if/ the rim doesn't pull
>> the nipple back quite as quickly, but unloading the spokes by
>> pressing down on the rim normal to the plane of the wheel is a much
>> more effective way of doing this.
>
> The belief that it relieves twist is that while over-tensioning one
> spoke, the neighbor is usually relaxed, and this reduction in load can
> allow that spoke to untwist. As I have said, the clicking sound one
> might hear during stress relief is a sign that spokes were not
> properly un-twisted during truing. That can be done by giving a small
> reverse twist after over shooting the adjustment bay an equal amount
> that is graphically described in "the Bicycle Wheel".
>
> http://www.avocet.com/wheelbook/wheelbook.html

when are you going to correct all the fundamental errors it contains?


>
>> However, squeezing the spokes (or even more so, using Sheldon's
>> trick of levering the spokes with an old crank arm) would have the
>> effect of pre-stretching the spokes, much like giving the cables a
>> good pull after installing them. This might (and I have no
>> scientific data to back this up) have the effect of preventing later
>> stretching of the spokes.
>
> Spokes do not plastically stretch in use, during stress relief, or
> over time, so that is not the reason. Momentarily over-tensioning
> spokes will cause yield at locations of high stress without materially
> stretching the spoke, because those locations are microscopically
> small and an insignificant length of a spoke.

there's no plastic deformation, except for when there is? classic jobst
conjuring up invisible dragons!

tell us, when have you observed fatigue initiating in regions of high
residual stress? how did you analyze the failures?

[Tom Sherman]

"jim beam" wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Michael Johnson writes:
>> ...
>>> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the
>>> threads caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of lubrication
>>> that causes spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread compound combats
>>> wind-up by lubricating the threads during tensioning and truing.
>>
>> Lubrication helps reduce wind-up but at higher tension, windup,
>> especially on tightening, is caused by torque proportional to thread
>> pitch diameter and slope (thread pitch).
>
> you're confused. high friction and zero tension causes windup. high
> tension and no friction does not cause windup. get your facts straight....

Patent this frictionless interface, and great riches will be yours!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

[jim beam]

Tom Sherman wrote:
> "jim beam" wrote:
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> Michael Johnson writes:
>>> ...
>>>> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the
>>>> threads caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of lubrication
>>>> that causes spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread compound combats
>>>> wind-up by lubricating the threads during tensioning and truing.
>>>
>>> Lubrication helps reduce wind-up but at higher tension, windup,
>>> especially on tightening, is caused by torque proportional to thread
>>> pitch diameter and slope (thread pitch).
>>
>> you're confused. high friction and zero tension causes windup. high
>> tension and no friction does not cause windup. get your facts
>> straight....
>
> Patent this frictionless interface, and great riches will be yours!
>

so do you want to address the misstatement that "windup ... is caused by
torque" or not? oh, wait, this is tom sherman - being clear on basic
principle is of no interest to you. my mistake.

[Tim McNamara]

In article <fm9btm$34b$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> "jim beam" wrote:
> > jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >> Michael Johnson writes: ...
> >>> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the
> >>> threads caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of
> >>> lubrication that causes spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread
> >>> compound combats wind-up by lubricating the threads during
> >>> tensioning and truing.
> >>
> >> Lubrication helps reduce wind-up but at higher tension, windup,
> >> especially on tightening, is caused by torque proportional to
> >> thread pitch diameter and slope (thread pitch).
> >
> > you're confused. high friction and zero tension causes windup.
> > high tension and no friction does not cause windup. get your facts
> > straight....
>
> Patent this frictionless interface, and great riches will be yours!

I see that the mr. beam and his delusions of adequacy have returned to
grace us with unwisdom and erroneity.

[jim beam]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <fm9btm$34b$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> "jim beam" wrote:
>>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>> Michael Johnson writes: ...
>>>>> I would expect that to be the case also. It's friction in the
>>>>> threads caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of
>>>>> lubrication that causes spoke wind-up. Using a spoke thread
>>>>> compound combats wind-up by lubricating the threads during
>>>>> tensioning and truing.
>>>> Lubrication helps reduce wind-up but at higher tension, windup,
>>>> especially on tightening, is caused by torque proportional to
>>>> thread pitch diameter and slope (thread pitch).
>>> you're confused. high friction and zero tension causes windup.
>>> high tension and no friction does not cause windup. get your facts
>>> straight....
>> Patent this frictionless interface, and great riches will be yours!
>
> I see that the mr. beam and his delusions of adequacy have returned to
> grace us with unwisdom and erroneity.


i'm sorry timmy, i don't see your explanation of the difference between
elasticity and friction. is that because you're a ****ing retard?

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jan 12, 10:07*am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <fm9btm$34...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> > *Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> "jim beam" wrote:
> >>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>>> Michael Johnson writes: ...
> >>>>> I would expect that to be the case also. *It's friction in the
> >>>>> threads caused by a) high tensile force and b) lack of
> >>>>> lubrication that causes spoke wind-up. *Using a spoke thread
> >>>>> compound combats wind-up by lubricating the threads during
> >>>>> tensioning and truing.
> >>>> Lubrication helps reduce wind-up but at higher tension, windup,
> >>>> especially on tightening, is caused by torque proportional to
> >>>> thread pitch diameter and slope (thread pitch).
> >>> you're confused. *high friction and zero tension causes windup. *
> >>> high tension and no friction does not cause windup. *get your facts
> >>> straight....
> >> Patent this frictionless interface, and great riches will be yours!
>
> > I see that the mr. beam and his delusions of adequacy have returned to
> > grace us with unwisdom and erroneity.
>
> i'm sorry timmy, i don't see your explanation of the difference between
> elasticity and friction. *is that because you're a ****ing retard?

Geez, "****ing retard" seems kinda harsh. Would you settle for
"vacuous dickhead"? ;-)

[still just me]

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:14:42 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:

>> i'm sorry timmy, i don't see your explanation of the difference between
>> elasticity and friction. *is that because you're a ****ing retard?
>
>Geez, "****ing retard" seems kinda harsh. Would you settle for
>"vacuous dickhead"? ;-)

I think he meant it literally - that Tim had not adequately explained
elasticity and friction whilst engaged in intercourse.

But even so, "****ing retard" would be harsh. Perhaps "dumb ****er"
would be more appropriate to express the suggested lack of knowledge
regarding fornication basics.