heart attacks & cycling... [Archive]

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

Just A User

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

Bill Sornson

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
> After the heart attack death of Mike
> Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/ at age
> 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time
> to revisit is cycling dangerous to your
> health. We have seen many cases where
> pro-cyclists often die of heart attacks
> in the 50's and rarely make it past
> their 60's, I think someone, somewhere
> should really study what cycling does to
> the heart. Is it the strain on the
> heart, that eventually weakens it, why
> does cycling usually lead to a fatal
> heart attack? We owe to the fallen, to
> find the real answer.

This is a bunch of horseeee............
g

hj
lk
plm

bllrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbb,s,

Bill "someone call 91hjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjzvm vgp'nbkmg ?>" S.

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

Leo Lichtman

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

"Crescentius Vespasianus" wrote: (clip) We have seen many cases where
> pro-cyclists often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it
> past their 60's, (clip) why does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart
> attack? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It may be reasonable to say that pro cyclists rarely make it past their
60's, but not in the sense you meant it. Very few pro athletes are still
active in their 60's. That's different from saying they mostly are dead of
heart attacks. Cycling does not usually lead to a fatal heart attack. Some
cyclists die of heart attacks. Many non-cyclists die of heart attacks. I
don't have any idea what the relative percentages are, but neither do you.

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

"Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13oem3sgg22ab7f@corp.supernews.com...
> After the heart attack death of Mike
> Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/ at age
> 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time
> to revisit is cycling dangerous to your
> health. We have seen many cases where
> pro-cyclists often die of heart attacks
> in the 50's and rarely make it past
> their 60's, I think someone, somewhere
> should really study what cycling does to
> the heart. Is it the strain on the
> heart, that eventually weakens it, why
> does cycling usually lead to a fatal
> heart attack? We owe to the fallen, to
> find the real answer.

There are too many contributing factors to heart disease: genetics,
smoking, lifestyle and diet are all contributing factors.

These have all been scientifically established causal factors with
genetics being number one. Stress and a sedentary lifestyle also
contribute to the problem.

Two years ago I lucked out and got to the hospital before I had a heart
attack. I had a 95% blockage in one of my coronary arteries. They put in 2
stents and I've been fine since then. There was no damage to my heart.

I started cycling again about 3 months after the incident and watched my
diet better. Now all my test results come back better than normal and my
doctors are amazed at my recovery and commented that cycling was probably
a positive contribution to this.

Before the incident my cholesterol, blood pressure and other contributing
elements were high normal . I smoked for a few years when I was young and
I was exposed to second hand smoke for 3/4 of my life. I also grew up
eating a diet high in cholesterol and fat.

I blame added work related stress that developed 6 months prior to my
almost heart attack as the main cause of the problem. I was exhausted
after work which led to a sedentary life style so I didn't get much
exercise.

My best friend that I grew up with had a fatal heart attack when he was
35. He smoked cigars, worked at a high stress job and ate very high
cholesterol foods. Two months later his father who lived a similar
lifestyle suffered the same fate.

I'm 64 and at least a third of the people I grew up with or my current
friends have had some form of coronary health issues. Heart disease is the
number one cause of death in the US with Cancer number 2 and Stroke number
3.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

Another issue that I think is greatly overlooked in competitive athletes
is the "Type A Behavioral Pattern" or "Type A Personality" which includes
the excessive desire to win. You have to be driven to put in the time to
become a top cyclist. This kind of stress has been shown to be a
contributing factor in heart disease.

"Type A behavior was first described as a potential risk factor in
coronary disease in the 1950s by cardiologists Meyer Friedman and R. H.
Rosenman. After a nine-year study of over 3,000 healthy men, aged 35-59,
Friedman & Rosenman estimated that Type A behavior doubles the risk of
coronary heart disease in otherwise healthy individuals."

Are you Type A? Here's a simple Type A - Type B personality test. It only
takes a minute or two.

http://discoveryhealth.queendom.com/type_a_personality_access.html

Other unknown factors are effects of drugs including caffeine and dietary
supplements plus banned performance enhancing drugs and activities.

Caffeine is a central nervous system stimulant plus it also increases
blood pressure and can increase stress hormone levels by over 30%.

http://my.cardiovalens.com/articles/articledisplay.asp?articledetail_id=mrf_cofe&article_id=mrf

This brings into question the value of the "Coffee Ride".

So cycling and other competitive sports are probably not that big of a
contributing factor to heart disease.

Chas.

Zog The Undeniable

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/ at
> age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
> dangerous to your health. We have seen many cases where pro-cyclists
> often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it past their
> 60's, I think someone, somewhere should really study what cycling does
> to the heart. Is it the strain on the heart, that eventually weakens
> it, why does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart attack? We owe to
> the fallen, to find the real answer.

Normally there is something affecting the heart, typically a cold or
'flu virus, which weakens it or interferes with the normal control
mechanisms. Cycling (or running) can take the heart near MHR, which is
more likely to show up problems. Unfortunately there isn't always a
clue that something is wrong, although you shouldn't ride with an
elevated resting pulse.

I had some kind of virus all through last week and, when riding to work
on Monday, I found I couldn't make it up a very moderate hill which I
normally stomp up (I ride a 70" fixed gear). I got off the bike and
found I couldn't walk either...then I woke up in the gutter. I stood up
again and the next thing I knew, I was halfway down someone's driveway.
It took 5 minutes for my vision to clear, although I could think and
talk OK (a passer-by stopped to see what was wrong). I have nice
bruises on the back of my head and my left buttock where I apparently
hit the ground.

I suspect I'd already hit my MHR (about 190 these days) by the bottom of
the hill, couldn't produce any more power to climb it, and when I
climbed off the blood just pooled in my legs, causing me to faint. I've
had my b.p. checked and an ECG trace done and my doctor says everything
is fine - indeed, I cycled in again on Wednesday and today with no
problems, except a rather elevated pulse on Wednesday morning (181 on
that particular hill). I'm 38.

dustoyevsky@mac.com

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

On Jan 11, 5:41*am, Crescentius Vespasianus <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> After the heart attack death of Mike
> Janellehttp://mikejanelle.com/at age
> 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time
> to revisit is cycling dangerous to your
> health.

A young man asked his doctor about how he could live longer. The doc
told him no booze, no women, no gambling, no excitement in general, to
stay on a strict bland diet, and to go to be every night by 8:00 at
the latest.

Somewhat shocked, the man asked "Will all that really help me live
longer?"

"I don't know", said the doc, "but it sure will *seem* longer!"

Thanks, CV, time for a ride! --D-y

stevek

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

On Jan 11, 6:41*am, Crescentius Vespasianus <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> After the heart attack death of Mike
> Janellehttp://mikejanelle.com/at age
> 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time
> to revisit is cycling dangerous to your
> health. *We have seen many cases where
> pro-cyclists often die of heart attacks
> in the 50's and rarely make it past
> their 60's, I think someone, somewhere
> should really study what cycling does to
> the heart. *Is it the strain on the
> heart, that eventually weakens it, why
> does cycling usually lead to a fatal
> heart attack? *We owe to the fallen, to
> find the real answer.

Some people are unfortunate enough to have congenital problems (which
may have been the case with this gentleman). For those people, the
end can come too soon -- cycling or no cycling.

Assuming that your statistics about pro cyclists are true, it is not a
huge surprise for me. At the pro-level where performance enhancing
drugs are all too common, cyclist's bodies take an awful lot of
abuse. There's a price to be paid for pushing your body to totally
unnatural levels (like the young Dutch pro-cyclists who were having
EPO related heart attacks in the prime of their lives).

I don't think that mortality rates among pro-cyclists can really
inform the average recreational racer or tourist. My gut feeling is
that cyclists probably age better than their sedentary brethren.
Beside the fact that cycling is an enjoyable passtime, I'm pretty sure
it helps keep things together as we age (not unlike other forms of
exercise).

Phil Holman

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

"Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13oem3sgg22ab7f@corp.supernews.com...
> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/
> at age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
> dangerous to your health. We have seen many cases where pro-cyclists
> often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it past their
> 60's, I think someone, somewhere should really study what cycling does
> to the heart. Is it the strain on the heart, that eventually weakens
> it, why does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart attack? We owe to
> the fallen, to find the real answer.

1: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5):886-97. Links
Exercise and acute cardiovascular events: placing the risks into
perspective.
American College of Sports Medicine; American Heart Association.
Habitual physical activity reduces coronary heart disease events, but
vigorous activity can also acutely and transiently increase the risk of
sudden cardiac death and acute myocardial infarction in susceptible
persons. This scientific statement discusses the potential
cardiovascular complications of exercise, their pathological substrate,
and their incidence and suggests strategies to reduce these
complications. Exercise-associated acute cardiac events generally occur
in individuals with structural cardiac disease. Hereditary or congenital
cardiovascular abnormalities are predominantly responsible for cardiac
events among young individuals, whereas atherosclerotic disease is
primarily responsible for these events in adults. The absolute rate of
exercise-related sudden cardiac death varies with the prevalence of
disease in the study population. The incidence of both acute myocardial
infarction and sudden death is greatest in the habitually least
physically active individuals. No strategies have been adequately
studied to evaluate their ability to reduce exercise-related acute
cardiovascular events. Maintaining physical fitness through regular
physical activity may help to reduce events because a disproportionate
number of events occur in least physically active subjects performing
unaccustomed physical activity. Other strategies, such as screening
patients before participation in exercise, excluding high-risk patients
from certain activities, promptly evaluating possible prodromal
symptoms, training fitness personnel for emergencies, and encouraging
patients to avoid high-risk activities, appear prudent but have not been
systematically evaluated.

PMID: 17468590 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Phil Holman

bicycle_disciple

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

Crescentius Vespasianus

01-04-1970, 12:07 AM

DI wrote:
> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13oem3sgg22ab7f@corp.supernews.com...
>> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/ at
>> age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
>> dangerous to your health. We have seen many cases where pro-cyclists
>> often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it past their 60's,
>> I think someone, somewhere should really study what cycling does to the
>> heart. Is it the strain on the heart, that eventually weakens it, why
>> does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart attack? We owe to the fallen,
>> to find the real answer.
>
> I recently suffered a heart attack which should have killed me. It would
> have if it had not been for fellow bike riders who knew CPR. We had just
> finished a morning 8 mile ride and was sitting at a local coffee shop and I
> just collapsed, no warning, no typical chest pains, or any of the normal
> things associated with heart attacks. The only reasons I didn't have major
> brain damage according to my Dr. was I was in good shape and probably would
> have had the attack years ago if I had not been a rider.
>
> Don't believe that exercise, whether if be cycling, running, or just plain
> walking is not going to not help you.
>
---------------
Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but
what I'm talking about is uber-training,
long endurance rides. I remember
reading about the doomed antarctic
expedition of Ernest Shackleton
1914-1916, when he and his men did some
super human things to survive, but after
they all were eventually rescued, and
went back to England, none lived past
their 50's.
------from wiki
Despite the events of the Endurance
Expedition, Shackleton traveled again to
the Antarctic aboard Quest. Although
some of his former crew members had not
received all of their pay from the
Endurance Expedition, many of them
signed on with their former "boss". The
trip's purpose was to circumnavigate
Antarctica by sea. However, when the
party arrived in Rio de Janeiro,
Shackleton fell ill after a heart
attack. Even so, he refused to return
the ship to England or seek treatment,
and Quest continued south.[27]

On January 4, 1922, the ship arrived off
the coast of South Georgia. In the early
morning hours, expedition member Macklin
was called to Shackleton's cabin and
noticed that he was ill. Macklin
suggested to Shackleton that he "take
things easier in the future", to which
the reply was: "You are always wanting
me to give up something, what do you
want me to give up now?"

These would be the last words spoken by
Sir Ernest Shackleton. A few moments
later, at 2:50 a.m. on January 5, 1922,
he suffered a fatal heart attack at the
age of 47. His men offered to return his
body to Britain; however a message was
received from Shackleton's wife asking
that he be buried in South Georgia. On
March 5, 1922, Ernest Shackleton was
buried at Grytviken, South Georgia.[27][28]
------------
These uber efforts, I think, suck the
life out of you.

Lou Holtman

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
> DI wrote:
>> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:13oem3sgg22ab7f@corp.supernews.com...
>>> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/
>>> at age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
>>> dangerous to your health. We have seen many cases where pro-cyclists
>>> often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it past their
>>> 60's, I think someone, somewhere should really study what cycling
>>> does to the heart. Is it the strain on the heart, that eventually
>>> weakens it, why does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart attack?
>>> We owe to the fallen, to find the real answer.
>>
>> I recently suffered a heart attack which should have killed me. It
>> would have if it had not been for fellow bike riders who knew CPR.
>> We had just finished a morning 8 mile ride and was sitting at a local
>> coffee shop and I just collapsed, no warning, no typical chest pains,
>> or any of the normal things associated with heart attacks. The only
>> reasons I didn't have major brain damage according to my Dr. was I was
>> in good shape and probably would have had the attack years ago if I
>> had not been a rider.
>>
>> Don't believe that exercise, whether if be cycling, running, or just
>> plain walking is not going to not help you.
> ---------------
> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
> uber-training, long endurance rides. I remember reading about the
> doomed antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he and
> his men did some super human things to survive, but after they all were
> eventually rescued, and went back to England, none lived past their 50's.
> ------from wiki
> Despite the events of the Endurance Expedition, Shackleton traveled
> again to the Antarctic aboard Quest. Although some of his former crew
> members had not received all of their pay from the Endurance Expedition,
> many of them signed on with their former "boss". The trip's purpose was
> to circumnavigate Antarctica by sea. However, when the party arrived in
> Rio de Janeiro, Shackleton fell ill after a heart attack. Even so, he
> refused to return the ship to England or seek treatment, and Quest
> continued south.[27]
>
> On January 4, 1922, the ship arrived off the coast of South Georgia. In
> the early morning hours, expedition member Macklin was called to
> Shackleton's cabin and noticed that he was ill. Macklin suggested to
> Shackleton that he "take things easier in the future", to which the
> reply was: "You are always wanting me to give up something, what do you
> want me to give up now?"
>
> These would be the last words spoken by Sir Ernest Shackleton. A few
> moments later, at 2:50 a.m. on January 5, 1922, he suffered a fatal
> heart attack at the age of 47. His men offered to return his body to
> Britain; however a message was received from Shackleton's wife asking
> that he be buried in South Georgia. On March 5, 1922, Ernest Shackleton
> was buried at Grytviken, South Georgia.[27][28]
> ------------
> These uber efforts, I think, suck the life out of you.
>
>
>

You thought that professional sport was healthy? It's not. Not to speak
of those silly expeditions.

Lou

Clive George

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

"Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13of0ogk99p0ld6@corp.supernews.com...

> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
> uber-training, long endurance rides. I remember reading about the doomed
> antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he and his men
> did some super human things to survive, but after they all were eventually
> rescued, and went back to England, none lived past their 50's.

That may of course be skewed by the fact that a lot of them got sent to the
trenches on their return.

cheers,
clive

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
> DI wrote:
>> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:13oem3sgg22ab7f@corp.supernews.com...
>>> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/
>>> at age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
>>> dangerous to your health. We have seen many cases where pro-cyclists
>>> often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it past their
>>> 60's, I think someone, somewhere should really study what cycling
>>> does to the heart. Is it the strain on the heart, that eventually
>>> weakens it, why does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart attack?
>>> We owe to the fallen, to find the real answer.
>>
>> I recently suffered a heart attack which should have killed me. It
>> would have if it had not been for fellow bike riders who knew CPR.
>> We had just finished a morning 8 mile ride and was sitting at a local
>> coffee shop and I just collapsed, no warning, no typical chest pains,
>> or any of the normal things associated with heart attacks. The only
>> reasons I didn't have major brain damage according to my Dr. was I was
>> in good shape and probably would have had the attack years ago if I
>> had not been a rider.
>>
>> Don't believe that exercise, whether if be cycling, running, or just
>> plain walking is not going to not help you.
> ---------------
> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
> uber-training, long endurance rides. I remember reading about the
> doomed antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he and
> his men did some super human things to survive, but after they all were
> eventually rescued, and went back to England, none lived past their 50's.
> ------from wiki
> Despite the events of the Endurance Expedition, Shackleton traveled
> again to the Antarctic aboard Quest. Although some of his former crew
> members had not received all of their pay from the Endurance Expedition,
> many of them signed on with their former "boss". The trip's purpose was
> to circumnavigate Antarctica by sea. However, when the party arrived in
> Rio de Janeiro, Shackleton fell ill after a heart attack. Even so, he
> refused to return the ship to England or seek treatment, and Quest
> continued south.[27]
>
> On January 4, 1922, the ship arrived off the coast of South Georgia. In
> the early morning hours, expedition member Macklin was called to
> Shackleton's cabin and noticed that he was ill. Macklin suggested to
> Shackleton that he "take things easier in the future", to which the
> reply was: "You are always wanting me to give up something, what do you
> want me to give up now?"
>
> These would be the last words spoken by Sir Ernest Shackleton. A few
> moments later, at 2:50 a.m. on January 5, 1922, he suffered a fatal
> heart attack at the age of 47. His men offered to return his body to
> Britain; however a message was received from Shackleton's wife asking
> that he be buried in South Georgia. On March 5, 1922, Ernest Shackleton
> was buried at Grytviken, South Georgia.[27][28]
> ------------
> These uber efforts, I think, suck the life out of you.

Again you mistake the incident for the trend. I know/knew several Bataan
survivors and what about Sir Edmund Hillary? They are more the norm.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Just A User

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

Bill Sornson wrote:

> This is a bunch of horseeee............
> g
>
> hj
> lk
> plm
>
> bllrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbb,s,
>
> Bill "someone call 91hjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjzvm vgp'nbkmg ?>" S.
>
>

WTF?

Bill Sornson

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

Just A User wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>
>> This is a bunch of horseeee............
>> g
>>
>> hj
>> lk
>> plm
>>
>> bllrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbb,s,
>>
>> Bill "someone call 91hjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjzvm vgp'nbkmg ?>"
>> S.
>
> WTF?

Work on it.

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> This is a bunch of horseeee............
>> g
>> hj
>> lk
>> plm
>> bllrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbb,s,
>> Bill "someone call 91hjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjzvm vgp'nbkmg ?>" S.

Just A User wrote:
> WTF?

Typographical effect of a myocardial infarction in progress.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

David L. Johnson

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

Clive George wrote:
> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13of0ogk99p0ld6@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
>> uber-training, long endurance rides. I remember reading about the
>> doomed antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he
>> and his men did some super human things to survive, but after they all
>> were eventually rescued, and went back to England, none lived past
>> their 50's.
>
> That may of course be skewed by the fact that a lot of them got sent to
> the trenches on their return.

That and the flu pandemic might have had a factor, plus the life
expectancy in 1916.

--

David L. Johnson

Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of
enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would
reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has
proven this not to be the case.

Lou Holtman

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

A Muzi wrote:
> Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
>> DI wrote:
>>> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:13oem3sgg22ab7f@corp.supernews.com...
>>>> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/
>>>> at age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
>>>> dangerous to your health. We have seen many cases where
>>>> pro-cyclists often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make
>>>> it past their 60's, I think someone, somewhere should really study
>>>> what cycling does to the heart. Is it the strain on the heart, that
>>>> eventually weakens it, why does cycling usually lead to a fatal
>>>> heart attack? We owe to the fallen, to find the real answer.
>>>
>>> I recently suffered a heart attack which should have killed me. It
>>> would have if it had not been for fellow bike riders who knew CPR.
>>> We had just finished a morning 8 mile ride and was sitting at a local
>>> coffee shop and I just collapsed, no warning, no typical chest pains,
>>> or any of the normal things associated with heart attacks. The only
>>> reasons I didn't have major brain damage according to my Dr. was I
>>> was in good shape and probably would have had the attack years ago if
>>> I had not been a rider.
>>>
>>> Don't believe that exercise, whether if be cycling, running, or just
>>> plain walking is not going to not help you.
>> ---------------
>> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
>> uber-training, long endurance rides. I remember reading about the
>> doomed antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he
>> and his men did some super human things to survive, but after they all
>> were eventually rescued, and went back to England, none lived past
>> their 50's.
>> ------from wiki
>> Despite the events of the Endurance Expedition, Shackleton traveled
>> again to the Antarctic aboard Quest. Although some of his former crew
>> members had not received all of their pay from the Endurance
>> Expedition, many of them signed on with their former "boss". The
>> trip's purpose was to circumnavigate Antarctica by sea. However, when
>> the party arrived in Rio de Janeiro, Shackleton fell ill after a heart
>> attack. Even so, he refused to return the ship to England or seek
>> treatment, and Quest continued south.[27]
>>
>> On January 4, 1922, the ship arrived off the coast of South Georgia.
>> In the early morning hours, expedition member Macklin was called to
>> Shackleton's cabin and noticed that he was ill. Macklin suggested to
>> Shackleton that he "take things easier in the future", to which the
>> reply was: "You are always wanting me to give up something, what do
>> you want me to give up now?"
>>
>> These would be the last words spoken by Sir Ernest Shackleton. A few
>> moments later, at 2:50 a.m. on January 5, 1922, he suffered a fatal
>> heart attack at the age of 47. His men offered to return his body to
>> Britain; however a message was received from Shackleton's wife asking
>> that he be buried in South Georgia. On March 5, 1922, Ernest
>> Shackleton was buried at Grytviken, South Georgia.[27][28]
>> ------------
>> These uber efforts, I think, suck the life out of you.
>
> Again you mistake the incident for the trend. I know/knew several Bataan
> survivors and what about Sir Edmund Hillary? They are more the norm.

You know he died yesterday at an age of 88?

Lou

Leo Lichtman

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

"A Muzi" wrote: Typographical effect of a myocardial infarction in
progress.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Or a cat walking on the keyboard. Don't ask me[poj k -w09jkas[ HOW I -osivm
know osavp[aojmb

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:13of7h02rln7sce@corp.supernews.com...
> > Bill Sornson wrote:
> >> This is a bunch of horseeee............
> >> g
> >> hj
> >> lk
> >> plm
> >> bllrrrbbbbbbbbbbbbbb,s,
> >> Bill "someone call 91hjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjzvm vgp'nbkmg ?>"
S.
>
> Just A User wrote:
> > WTF?
>
> Typographical effect of a myocardial infarction in progress.
> --
> Andrew Muzi

I thought it was the letter a woman wrote to her doctor complaining that
her husband was a sex addict.... ;-)

Chas.

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 12:08 AM

>>>> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle
>>>>> http://mikejanelle.com/ at age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's
>>>>> time to revisit is cycling dangerous to your health. We have seen
>>>>> many cases where pro-cyclists often die of heart attacks in the
>>>>> 50's and rarely make it past their 60's, I think someone, somewhere
>>>>> should really study what cycling does to the heart. Is it the
>>>>> strain on the heart, that eventually weakens it, why does cycling
>>>>> usually lead to a fatal heart attack? We owe to the fallen, to
>>>>> find the real answer.

>>> DI wrote:
>>>> I recently suffered a heart attack which should have killed me. It
>>>> would have if it had not been for fellow bike riders who knew
>>>> CPR. We had just finished a morning 8 mile ride and was sitting
>>>> at a local coffee shop and I just collapsed, no warning, no typical
>>>> chest pains, or any of the normal things associated with heart
>>>> attacks. The only reasons I didn't have major brain damage
>>>> according to my Dr. was I was in good shape and probably would have
>>>> had the attack years ago if I had not been a rider.
>>>> Don't believe that exercise, whether if be cycling, running, or just
>>>> plain walking is not going to not help you.

>> Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
>>> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
>>> uber-training, long endurance rides. I remember reading about the
>>> doomed antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he
-snip omigod we're all gonna die-
>>> These would be the last words spoken by Sir Ernest Shackleton. A few
>>> moments later, at 2:50 a.m. on January 5, 1922, he suffered a fatal
>>> heart attack at the age of 47. His men offered to return his body to
>>> Britain; however a message was received from Shackleton's wife asking
>>> that he be buried in South Georgia. On March 5, 1922, Ernest
>>> Shackleton was buried at Grytviken, South Georgia.[27][28]
>>> These uber efforts, I think, suck the life out of you.

> A Muzi wrote:
>> Again you mistake the incident for the trend. I know/knew several
>> Bataan survivors and what about Sir Edmund Hillary? They are more the
>> norm.

Lou Holtman wrote:
> You know he died yesterday at an age of 88?

That's why I mentioned him.

Our white hairs signal to the tribe that we should be left by the trail
when they move on. Anything after 40 is gravy.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Just A User

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "A Muzi" wrote: Typographical effect of a myocardial infarction in
> progress.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Or a cat walking on the keyboard. Don't ask me[poj k -w09jkas[ HOW I -osivm
> know osavp[aojmb
>
>
Or perhaps a person suffering from some sort of muscle seizure of some sort.

Ozark Bicycle

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

On Jan 11, 11:20*am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >>>>> After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle
> >>>>>http://mikejanelle.com/at age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's
> >>>>> time to revisit is cycling dangerous to your health. *We have seen
> >>>>> many cases where pro-cyclists often die of heart attacks in the
> >>>>> 50's and rarely make it past their 60's, I think someone, somewhere
> >>>>> should really study what cycling does to the heart. *Is it the
> >>>>> strain on the heart, that eventually weakens it, why does cycling
> >>>>> usually lead to a fatal heart attack? *We owe to the fallen, to
> >>>>> find the real answer.
> >>> DI wrote:
> >>>> I recently suffered a heart attack which should have killed me. *It
> >>>> would have if it had not been for fellow bike riders who knew
> >>>> CPR. * *We had just finished a morning 8 mile ride and was sitting
> >>>> at a local coffee shop and I just collapsed, no warning, no typical
> >>>> chest pains, or any of the normal things associated with heart
> >>>> attacks. * The only reasons I didn't have major brain damage
> >>>> according to my Dr. was I was in good shape and probably would have
> >>>> had the attack years ago if I had not been a rider.
> >>>> Don't believe that exercise, whether if be cycling, running, or just
> >>>> plain walking is not going to not help *you.
> >> Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
> >>> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
> >>> uber-training, long endurance rides. *I remember reading about the
> >>> doomed antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he
>
> -snip omigod we're all gonna die-
>
> >>> These would be the last words spoken by Sir Ernest Shackleton. A few
> >>> moments later, at 2:50 a.m. on January 5, 1922, he suffered a fatal
> >>> heart attack at the age of 47. His men offered to return his body to
> >>> Britain; however a message was received from Shackleton's wife asking
> >>> that he be buried in South Georgia. On March 5, 1922, Ernest
> >>> Shackleton was buried at Grytviken, South Georgia.[27][28]
> >>> These uber efforts, I think, suck the life out of you.
> > A Muzi wrote:
> >> Again you mistake the incident for the trend. I know/knew several
> >> Bataan survivors and what about Sir Edmund Hillary? They are more the
> >> norm.
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > You know he died yesterday at an age of 88?
>
> That's why I mentioned him.
>
> Our white hairs signal to the tribe that we should be left by the trail
> when they move on. Anything after 40 is gravy.

"Anything after 40"??? Yikes. Guess I'm planning on a long ride on the
gravy train. ;-)

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:13of9bg6ao8f3d7@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
>
> > A Muzi wrote:
> >> Again you mistake the incident for the trend. I know/knew several
> >> Bataan survivors and what about Sir Edmund Hillary? They are more the
> >> norm.
>
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > You know he died yesterday at an age of 88?
>
> That's why I mentioned him.
>
> Our white hairs signal to the tribe that we should be left by the trail
> when they move on. Anything after 40 is gravy.
> --
> Andrew Muzi

I've always viewed that the human body evolved to live 39 years. Half of
our forbearers became sabertooth tiger chow long before they reached that
age.

I've never understood the drive to live forever. More people should visit
nursing homes and think about it.

Chas.

Wayne

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

The fear of exercise was common in the past and apparently still
survives today. Some of the older members of RBT will be familiar
with Dr. Kenneth Cooper, the man who coined the term aerobics. When
he began stress testing heart attack victims he was thought to be
doing harm to his patients and was investigated.

I am a firm believer of aerobic exercise increasing the quality of
life, but I know of no study that exercise above a minimal level
actually increases lifespan. Such studies are extremely difficult to
accomplish. For example if pro cyclists were found do on average die
at a early age, the result could be drug use or other behavior
associated with their lifestyle or environment while competing and not
the exercise itself.

I ride my bike to enjoy life not to live longer.

Wayne

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

In article
<CfydnV9fM5r5MBranZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:

> Are you Type A? Here's a simple Type A - Type B personality test. It only
> takes a minute or two.
>
> http://discoveryhealth.queendom.com/type_a_personality_access.html

2. I don't understand people who become so
impatient in traffic that they start honking.

Understanding the behavior is no indicator of
A or B personality. Bad question.

14. I function best under stress or pressure.

Disagree
Cannot say
Agree

Can somebody explain this one? Is it that people who
agree are adrenaline junkies?

15. Talking about emotions is a sign of weakness and
can be used by others to get at you.

No to the first part, yes to the second.
Stupid question.

17. If everybody did their job properly, my life would be much easier.

Everybody's life would be easier. Another stupid question.
I answered `Disagree' because making life easier is not a priority.

Apparently the scoring requires Java,
so I cannot share it with you.

--
Michael Press

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

* * Chas wrote:
> ...
> I blame added work related stress that developed 6 months prior to my
> almost heart attack as the main cause of the problem. I was exhausted
> after work which led to a sedentary life style so I didn't get much
> exercise....

Damn communist. Good American's are supposed to live like that, unless
God chose for them to be born rich.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

(PeteCresswell)

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

Per * * Chas:
>I blame added work related stress that developed 6 months prior to my
>almost heart attack as the main cause of the problem. I was exhausted
>after work which led to a sedentary life style so I didn't get much
>exercise.

After somebody close got theirs and genetics became and issue, I
had the thing where they slip a tube into a leg vein (artery?),
snake it up to the heart, squirt radio-opaque dye, and take pics.

Supposedly the gold standard in evaluating coronary artery
blockage. Mine were pronounced "large and clear".

That was in 1994 - just before my employer (large electric
utility - relaxed, comfortable work environment) outsourced the
IT department and about 400 of us hit the bricks.

Wound up with a 10-year gig at a major mutual fund as an
independent developer.

It was the highlight of my working life. Exciting, demanding,
really-smart, but basically-reasonable people. High pressure,
but I guess it was a little like working in Manhattan: things
were *happening* all around me and I was part of it.

Scroll forward to 2005 and a second coronary angio-whatever.

The verdict? "Your coronary arteries aren't *too* bad for
somebody your age.

Bottom line to me: stress does wonders.
--
PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell)

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

Per * * Chas:
>I've never understood the drive to live forever. More people should visit
>nursing homes and think about it.

I used to know a doctor who said he's seen a *lot* of people die.

His take was that the ones who took life by the tail and shook it
went the easiest because they were just plain worn out.

The ones that had held back died the hardest.
--
PeteCresswell

gdewilde@gmail.com

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

On Jan 11, 7:10 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> "A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
>
> news:13of9bg6ao8f3d7@corp.supernews.com...
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > > A Muzi wrote:
> > >> Again you mistake the incident for the trend. I know/knew several
> > >> Bataan survivors and what about Sir Edmund Hillary? They are more the
> > >> norm.
>
> > Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > You know he died yesterday at an age of 88?
>
> > That's why I mentioned him.
>
> > Our white hairs signal to the tribe that we should be left by the trail
> > when they move on. Anything after 40 is gravy.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
>
> I've always viewed that the human body evolved to live 39 years. Half of
> our forbearers became sabertooth tiger chow long before they reached that
> age.
>
> I've never understood the drive to live forever. More people should visit
> nursing homes and think about it.
>
> Chas.

You got the wrong picture. People live in nursing homes because of the
effects of aging. Aging kills people slowly starting as early as 13
years old. There is nothing that makes aging significantly different
from other diseases.

You would think a cure for such horrible slow death would be something
people would research. Nothing could be further from the truth.

People are happy to die slowly and they want everyone else to die with
them. They want everyone to die slowly and horribly.

I know it sounds rather weird but it's the truth.

Modern day medicine descends from dentist butchers. They cant even be
bothered to make basic suggestions about nutrition. There is no
medicine to sell to people who are not ill. Your body can manage all
types of cell aging, all except the really really really slow kind.
This is because we just didn't get that old in the old days! It all
boils down to us not doing the billion Euro research we should be
doing.

Cancer research is not anti aging research.

Aids research is not anti aging research.

Having vitamin C in your diet would probably make 20% of the
difference.

That wouldn't cure death from old age but it would remove our
amplification of the undesired phenomenon.

I hear about an experiment in a prison. They inmates all had multiple
life sentences. One group would live the way they always did, the
other group got lots of vitamins. (closer to to much as to little)

After 3 months the inmates in group 2 where sitting in the hallway
playing chess, laughing, singing and making music. In group 1 they
would still kill a person per day on average.

We cant say they died from lack of nutrition but we sure as hell cant
say it wasn't related.

""De Grey says that not all of the conditions that cause our bodies to
age can be avoided or prevented...yet. "But I do claim that we have a
fighting chance of developing ways to prevent them within the next 25
years or so.""

If we develop tech to have 10 years worth of extra life every 5 years
then we will never die.

In theory you can be as vital as a 20 year old when you are two
hundred years old. Suggestions of nursing homes would make you laugh
for decade after decade.

And just like the way we got this old at about 500 years of age other
degradation shows up. This is just as curable as today's medicine
compared to 500 years ago.

You would have up to 2508 to find a solution.

It would be peanuts by then.

I suggest we use our war budgets for this.

Why buy death if we can but life?

Why a nursing home if you can have your own planet?

____
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/factuurexpress

Jay Beattie

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

On Jan 11, 10:22*am, Zog The Undeniable <hrothga...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
> > After the heart attack death of Mike Janellehttp://mikejanelle.com/at
> > age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
> > dangerous to your health. *We have seen many cases where pro-cyclists
> > often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it past their
> > 60's, I think someone, somewhere should really study what cycling does
> > to the heart. *Is it the strain on the heart, that eventually weakens
> > it, why does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart attack? *We owe to
> > the fallen, to find the real answer.
>
> Normally there is something affecting the heart, typically a cold or
> 'flu virus, which weakens it or interferes with the normal control
> mechanisms. *Cycling (or running) can take the heart near MHR, which is
> more likely to show up problems. *Unfortunately there isn't always a
> clue that something is wrong, although you shouldn't ride with an
> elevated resting pulse.
>
> I had some kind of virus all through last week and, when riding to work
> on Monday, I found I couldn't make it up a very moderate hill which I
> normally stomp up (I ride a 70" fixed gear). *I got off the bike and
> found I couldn't walk either...then I woke up in the gutter. *I stood up
> again and the next thing I knew, I was halfway down someone's driveway.
> * It took 5 minutes for my vision to clear, although I could think and
> talk OK (a passer-by stopped to see what was wrong). *I have nice
> bruises on the back of my head and my left buttock where I apparently
> hit the ground.
>
> I suspect I'd already hit my MHR (about 190 these days) by the bottom of
> the hill, couldn't produce any more power to climb it, and when I
> climbed off the blood just pooled in my legs, causing me to faint. *I've
> had my b.p. checked and an ECG trace done and my doctor says everything
> is fine - indeed, I cycled in again on Wednesday and today with no
> problems, except a rather elevated pulse on Wednesday morning (181 on
> that particular hill). *I'm 38.

It could also be postural hypotension -- blood pressure drop when you
go from hunched over your bars to standing up. It could also be inner-
ear, or so I am told (which goes with a viral infection). I have a
real problem with standing up fast and passing out or almost passing
out. It is worse when I am physically exhausted but usually not so
bad that I cannot get to my knees before I fall. My doctors have told
me not to stand up fast, which I do not find amusing. I am supposed to
go get screened for inner-ear problems. My BP at age 50 is low but
not abnormally so (107/68). BMI, PFT and EKG are all good. It's just
one of those freaky things I guess. I'll let you know if I drop dead.
-- Jay Beattie.

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

<dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote in message
news:ffac5992-28ec-4451-b1f6-9687f7caa8ff@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 11, 5:41 am, Crescentius Vespasianus <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> After the heart attack death of Mike
> Janellehttp://mikejanelle.com/at age
> 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time
> to revisit is cycling dangerous to your
> health.

A young man asked his doctor about how he could live longer. The doc
told him no booze, no women, no gambling, no excitement in general, to
stay on a strict bland diet, and to go to be every night by 8:00 at
the latest.

Somewhat shocked, the man asked "Will all that really help me live
longer?"

"I don't know", said the doc, "but it sure will *seem* longer!"

Thanks, CV, time for a ride! --D-y

"Do you want to live forever?" Conan the Barbarian

We are the first people in the history of mankind to whom old age is any
real concern.

http://www.suddenlysenior.com/liveforever.html

Chas.

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

"David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu> wrote in message
news:C4adnWxJp8NhWxranZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@ptd.net...
> Clive George wrote:
> > "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:13of0ogk99p0ld6@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> >> Moderate exercise is most likely ok, but what I'm talking about is
> >> uber-training, long endurance rides. I remember reading about the
> >> doomed antarctic expedition of Ernest Shackleton 1914-1916, when he
> >> and his men did some super human things to survive, but after they
all
> >> were eventually rescued, and went back to England, none lived past
> >> their 50's.
> >
> > That may of course be skewed by the fact that a lot of them got sent
to
> > the trenches on their return.
>
> That and the flu pandemic might have had a factor, plus the life
> expectancy in 1916.
>
> David L. Johnson

The average life expectancy for a woman in the US in 1900 was 48 years.
For men it was 47 years.

http://www.elderweb.com/home/node/2838

Tuberculosis (consumption) was rampant especially among city dwellers and
recent immigrants. Smallpox was still common. Industrial fatalities were a
regular occurance because there were very few safety regulations. Many
ailments caused by bacteria ended up being fatal because antibiotics
hadn't been developed yet.

A lot of people had weakened immune systems because of poor nuttriton and
other causes.

People died for many different reasons and a lot of them never lived long
enough for heart disease to be an issue.

Chas.

Crescentius Vespasianus

01-04-1970, 12:09 AM

J
>
> It could also be postural hypotension -- blood pressure drop when you
> go from hunched over your bars to standing up. It could also be inner-
> ear, or so I am told (which goes with a viral infection). I have a
> real problem with standing up fast and passing out or almost passing
> out. It is worse when I am physically exhausted but usually not so
> bad that I cannot get to my knees before I fall. My doctors have told
> me not to stand up fast, which I do not find amusing. I am supposed to
> go get screened for inner-ear problems. My BP at age 50 is low but
> not abnormally so (107/68). BMI, PFT and EKG are all good. It's just
> one of those freaky things I guess. I'll let you know if I drop dead.
> -- Jay Beattie.
-----------
Although I haven't been to a Doctor, I
have the same thing, probably for the
reason you stated. It seems to
intensify the older I get. But your
Doctor gave good advice (don't stand up
fast), every time I forget, it's quite a
trip. But it isn't exactly something
you do all the time either. It usually
happens to me at store, when I'm
checking out something on the bottom
shelf, and then suddenly stand up, and
it's like whoooooa, hold on there.

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:10 AM

"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-9BAA78.14395311012008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com ...
> In article
> <CfydnV9fM5r5MBranZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you Type A? Here's a simple Type A - Type B personality test. It
only
> > takes a minute or two.
> >
> > http://discoveryhealth.queendom.com/type_a_personality_access.html
>
> 2. I don't understand people who become so
> impatient in traffic that they start honking.
>
> Understanding the behavior is no indicator of
> A or B personality. Bad question.
>
> 14. I function best under stress or pressure.
>
> Disagree
> Cannot say
> Agree
>
> Can somebody explain this one? Is it that people who
> agree are adrenaline junkies?
>
> 15. Talking about emotions is a sign of weakness and
> can be used by others to get at you.
>
> No to the first part, yes to the second.
> Stupid question.
>
> 17. If everybody did their job properly, my life would be much easier.
>
> Everybody's life would be easier. Another stupid question.
> I answered `Disagree' because making life easier is not a priority.
>
> Apparently the scoring requires Java,
> so I cannot share it with you.
>
> --
> Michael Press

Actually it's a pretty well written test for people living in Western
cultures. One of the functions is to indicate a persons patience level
especially when dealing with ambiguity.

Type A Personalities generally have less patience over issues that they
can't control, ambiguity being one of them.

One personality type is no better than the other and most people score
somewhere on a continuum between A and B.

I used to be a stress junkie myself. I've mellowed with age especially
when faced with my own mortality after my coronary incident. According to
this test I'm now a type A/B personality.

Getting back onto topic, the conventional wisdom has been that impatient
Type A personalities are more prone to coronary problems. Research has
shown that high stress lifestyles can increase the level on hormones that
are harmful to your heart.

On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
negatively affected by stress.

Chas.

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:11 AM

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:n46go3pkp2qiar6bhv1ok1sdmp7agi2tu4@4ax.com...
> Per * * Chas:
> >I've never understood the drive to live forever. More people should
visit
> >nursing homes and think about it.
>
> I used to know a doctor who said he's seen a *lot* of people die.
>
> His take was that the ones who took life by the tail and shook it
> went the easiest because they were just plain worn out.
>
> The ones that had held back died the hardest.
> --
> PeteCresswell

Live Hard! Die Young! Make a Beautiful Corpse! That was our motto 40 years
ago.

Chas.

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:11 AM

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per * * Chas:
>> I blame added work related stress that developed 6 months prior to my
>> almost heart attack as the main cause of the problem. I was exhausted
>> after work which led to a sedentary life style so I didn't get much
>> exercise.
>
> After somebody close got theirs and genetics became and issue, I
> had the thing where they slip a tube into a leg vein (artery?),
> snake it up to the heart, squirt radio-opaque dye, and take pics.
>
> Supposedly the gold standard in evaluating coronary artery
> blockage. Mine were pronounced "large and clear".
>
> That was in 1994 - just before my employer (large electric
> utility - relaxed, comfortable work environment) outsourced the
> IT department and about 400 of us hit the bricks.
>
> Wound up with a 10-year gig at a major mutual fund as an
> independent developer.
>
> It was the highlight of my working life. Exciting, demanding,
> really-smart, but basically-reasonable people. High pressure,
> but I guess it was a little like working in Manhattan: things
> were *happening* all around me and I was part of it.
>
> Scroll forward to 2005 and a second coronary angio-whatever.
>
> The verdict? "Your coronary arteries aren't *too* bad for
> somebody your age.
>
> Bottom line to me: stress does wonders.

Was perfection the expected performance, with termination being
threatened at every turn?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

Michael Baldwin

01-04-1970, 12:11 AM

>Was perfection the expected performance, with termination being
threatened at
>every turn?
>--
>Tom Sherman

...this statement put me in mind of an old character I once worked
with...he'd say "I'll do the best I can and if that ain't good enough
just remember I was looking for a job when I got this one."...he spent
every penny he ever earned living life to it's fullest...he'd work,
scrimp and save, then spend it all on his next endeavour...I asked him
once about health insurance. He replied, "Health insurance, why waste
your money on health insurance? adding "Life's terminal, you ain't
never getting out of it alive."

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

(PeteCresswell)

01-04-1970, 12:11 AM

Per Tom Sherman:
>Was perfection the expected performance, with termination being
>threatened at every turn?

I wouldn't say that.

Basically, I was a mini-personality cult. Good ol' Pete can get
it done for you in record time - whereas those slugs in IT will
take forever.

Clearly a cheap shot/bad rap for IT bc they were constrained by
sensible/important rules and regs where I was just sort of a
cowboy - free to roam at will.

But the day-to-day stress was there. Perhaps self-imposed to
some extent.

Normal environment:
Q: "Can you do this for me?"
A: "Yes, how does two weeks sound?"

My little world:
Q: "Can you get this done, up-and-running by 10 AM?"
A: "How about COB today?"
--
PeteCresswell

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:11 AM

Michael Baldwin wrote:
>> Was perfection the expected performance, with termination being
> threatened at
>> every turn?
>
> ..this statement put me in mind of an old character I once worked
> with...he'd say "I'll do the best I can and if that ain't good enough
> just remember I was looking for a job when I got this one."...

Get fired one or two times, and finding the next job becomes very hard.
Change jobs a few too many times looking for something better and the
same thing happens.

Employers hold most of the cards, since they can do without a particular
employee much more than the employee can do without income (unless the
employee is independently wealthy).

The government in the US had made sure the playing field is tilted more
by creating structural unemployment and removing the social safety net.

If the workers get to uppity, there is always the police and Blackwater
to keep them in line.

Fear is power, and power is what the ruling class lusts over, far above
all else.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:12 AM

* * Chas wrote:
> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-9BAA78.14395311012008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com ...
>> In article
>> <CfydnV9fM5r5MBranZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> "* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are you Type A? Here's a simple Type A - Type B personality test. It
> only
>>> takes a minute or two.
>>>
>>> http://discoveryhealth.queendom.com/type_a_personality_access.html
>> 2. I don't understand people who become so
>> impatient in traffic that they start honking.
>>
>> Understanding the behavior is no indicator of
>> A or B personality. Bad question.
>>
>> 14. I function best under stress or pressure.
>>
>> Disagree
>> Cannot say
>> Agree
>>
>> Can somebody explain this one? Is it that people who
>> agree are adrenaline junkies?
>>
>> 15. Talking about emotions is a sign of weakness and
>> can be used by others to get at you.
>>
>> No to the first part, yes to the second.
>> Stupid question.
>>
>> 17. If everybody did their job properly, my life would be much easier.
>>
>> Everybody's life would be easier. Another stupid question.
>> I answered `Disagree' because making life easier is not a priority.
>>
>> Apparently the scoring requires Java,
>> so I cannot share it with you.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Press
>
> Actually it's a pretty well written test for people living in Western
> cultures. One of the functions is to indicate a persons patience level
> especially when dealing with ambiguity.
>
> Type A Personalities generally have less patience over issues that they
> can't control, ambiguity being one of them.
>
> One personality type is no better than the other and most people score
> somewhere on a continuum between A and B.
>
> I used to be a stress junkie myself. I've mellowed with age especially
> when faced with my own mortality after my coronary incident. According to
> this test I'm now a type A/B personality.
>
> Getting back onto topic, the conventional wisdom has been that impatient
> Type A personalities are more prone to coronary problems. Research has
> shown that high stress lifestyles can increase the level on hormones that
> are harmful to your heart....

But our "free market" society does not offer the option of a low-stress
lifestyle, unless one comes from the privileged classes.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." A. Derleth

(PeteCresswell)

01-04-1970, 12:12 AM

Per * * Chas:
>On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
>others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
>negatively affected by stress.

I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
day-to-day lives was important.

"Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.

--
PeteCresswell

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 12:12 AM

In article
<pNWdndAcHYSYzhXanZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-9BAA78.14395311012008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com ...
> > In article
> > <CfydnV9fM5r5MBranZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> > "* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Are you Type A? Here's a simple Type A - Type B personality test. It
> only
> > > takes a minute or two.
> > >
> > > http://discoveryhealth.queendom.com/type_a_personality_access.html
> >
> > 2. I don't understand people who become so
> > impatient in traffic that they start honking.
> >
> > Understanding the behavior is no indicator of
> > A or B personality. Bad question.
> >
> > 14. I function best under stress or pressure.
> >
> > Disagree
> > Cannot say
> > Agree
> >
> > Can somebody explain this one? Is it that people who
> > agree are adrenaline junkies?
> >
> > 15. Talking about emotions is a sign of weakness and
> > can be used by others to get at you.
> >
> > No to the first part, yes to the second.
> > Stupid question.
> >
> > 17. If everybody did their job properly, my life would be much easier.
> >
> > Everybody's life would be easier. Another stupid question.
> > I answered `Disagree' because making life easier is not a priority.
> >
> > Apparently the scoring requires Java,
> > so I cannot share it with you.
>
> Actually it's a pretty well written test for people living in Western
> cultures. One of the functions is to indicate a persons patience level
> especially when dealing with ambiguity.
>
> Type A Personalities generally have less patience over issues that they
> can't control, ambiguity being one of them.

Handling ambiguity is the only way to learn. The transition
from one state to another passes through an ambiguous realm.
Are they (you?) saying that Type A do not learn?

> One personality type is no better than the other and most people score
> somewhere on a continuum between A and B.
>
> I used to be a stress junkie myself. I've mellowed with age especially
> when faced with my own mortality after my coronary incident. According to
> this test I'm now a type A/B personality.
>
> Getting back onto topic, the conventional wisdom has been that impatient
> Type A personalities are more prone to coronary problems. Research has
> shown that high stress lifestyles can increase the level on hormones that
> are harmful to your heart.
>
> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
> negatively affected by stress.

Perhaps because they are not addicted. I find certain high
stress situations are good for me (and others). Stress
itself is not a health risk. The point is to identify
stress. The risk is constant low level stress.

I read once that the Type A/B distinction is real and
has everything to do with pack roles. Type A sleep lighter
and are always alert to threat. Things like that. No
health risk when part of a healthy regime.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 12:13 AM

In article
<vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:

> Per * * Chas:
> >On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
> >others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
> >negatively affected by stress.
>
> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
> day-to-day lives was important.
>
> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.

Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
solely to amuse oneself, though.

And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.

--
Michael Press

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:13 AM

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com...
> Per * * Chas:
> >On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons
and
> >others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
> >negatively affected by stress.
>
> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
> day-to-day lives was important.
>
> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
>
> --
> PeteCresswell

I'd be careful not to take pop psychology too seriously. ;-)

"I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
day-to-day lives was important."

It comes down to a matter of balance.

I was a control freak and Type A for 25 years or so. It was a reaction to
growing up feeling that I had no control over my life. I've gradually
mellowed over the years.

Once some one asked me for some aspirins and I said "I never use aspirin".
They asked if I ever got a headache and I responded "I don't get
headaches - I give them!" :-)

I used to enjoy "surfing" on stress but it takes too much energy. Now it's
easier to avoid it.

The pop psychology quiz that I suggested is a relatively harmless way for
someone to find out how they rank among others in our culture on a scale
of drive vs. patience among other things.

A number of the questions were designed to create feelings of ambiguity
which can result in frustration for some people who lack patience thus
suggesting a tendency towards the mythical Type A personality.

Intense impatience can lead to a lot of frustration especially situations
like being stuck in traffic gridlock. The stress caused by this
frustration leads to elevated levels of stress hormones like adrenaline
and cortisol. This can result in changes in the way blood clots and
possibly a heart attack.

From a web article on stress and heart attacks:

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/stress-heart-attack-risk

"What Causes Stress?

Stress can be caused by a physical or emotional change, or a change in
your environment that requires you to adjust or respond. Things that make
you feel stressed are called "stressors."

Stressors can be minor hassles, major lifestyle changes or a combination
of both. Being able to identify stressors in your life and releasing the
tension they cause are the keys to managing stress.

Below are some common stressors that can affect people at all stages of
life.

* Illness, either personal or of a family member or friend.
* Death of a friend or loved one.
* Problems in a personal relationship.
* Work overload.
* Starting a new job.
* Unemployment.
* Retirement.
* Pregnancy.
* Crowds.
* Relocation.
* Daily hassles.
* Legal problems.
* Financial concerns.
* Perfectionism."

Exercise can reduce cortisol levels but what about the stress of
competition? The stress of pre race jitters, of keeping up with the
peleton, catching a breakaway, staying off the front, how does this kind
of exertion relate to the continual production of stress hormones?

One study from a 2002 article in the International Journal of Sports
Medicine showed a reduction of cortisol levels in the blood of 2 pro teams
in the 1998 Vuelta a España over the course of the 3 week race. They also
found reductions in testosterone levels.

Here's a synopsis of the article:

>
http://www.accelerated-learning-online.com/research/response-sexual-stress-hormones-male-pro-cyclists-continuous-intense.asp

So in my opinion, there are too many other factors that affect heart
disease beyond the exertion of competitive sports. If that wasn't the case
we would be seeing chest grabbing all over the place during athletic
contests.

Chas.

Bill Sornson

01-04-1970, 12:13 AM

Michael Press wrote:

> Handling ambiguity is the only way to learn.

Well, yes and no.

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:13 AM

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
>
>> Per * * Chas:
>>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
>>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
>>> negatively affected by stress.
>> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
>> day-to-day lives was important.
>>
>> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
>> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
>> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
>
> Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
> solely to amuse oneself, though.
>
> And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
> capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
>
Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 12:13 AM

In article <fmb8an$asf$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
> > "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Per * * Chas:
> >>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
> >>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
> >>> negatively affected by stress.
> >> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
> >> day-to-day lives was important.
> >>
> >> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
> >> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
> >> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
> >
> > Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
> > solely to amuse oneself, though.
> >
> > And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
> > capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
> >
> Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?

What are you talking about?

--
Michael Press

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:14 AM

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <fmb8an$asf$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
>>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Per * * Chas:
>>>>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
>>>>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
>>>>> negatively affected by stress.
>>>> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
>>>> day-to-day lives was important.
>>>>
>>>> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
>>>> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
>>>> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
>>> Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
>>> solely to amuse oneself, though.
>>>
>>> And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
>>> capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
>>>
>> Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?
>
> What are you talking about?
>
That reply is for when people post without quoting previous text for
content, no?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 12:15 AM

In article <fmc9qo$8tc$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <fmb8an$asf$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
> > Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Press wrote:
> >>> In article
> >>> <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
> >>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Per * * Chas:
> >>>>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
> >>>>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
> >>>>> negatively affected by stress.
> >>>> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
> >>>> day-to-day lives was important.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
> >>>> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
> >>>> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
> >>> Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
> >>> solely to amuse oneself, though.
> >>>
> >>> And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
> >>> capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
> >>>
> >> Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?
> >
> > What are you talking about?
> >
> That reply is for when people post without quoting previous text for
> content, no?

What is the relevance of your reply to the context?

--
Michael Press

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:16 AM

"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote in message
news:478a42a8$0$31810$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Michael Press wrote:
>
> > Handling ambiguity is the only way to learn.
>
> Well, yes and no.
>
>

It all depends.....

Chas.

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:17 AM

z
<gdewilde@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c668011c-f70f-4c71-a1e5-1f7124357abf@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 11, 7:10 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > "A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
> >
> > news:13of9bg6ao8f3d7@corp.supernews.com...
> > <snip>
> >
> >
> >
> > > > A Muzi wrote:
> > > >> Again you mistake the incident for the trend. I know/knew several
> > > >> Bataan survivors and what about Sir Edmund Hillary? They are more
the
> > > >> norm.
> >
> > > Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > You know he died yesterday at an age of 88?
> >
> > > That's why I mentioned him.
> >
> > > Our white hairs signal to the tribe that we should be left by the
trail
> > > when they move on. Anything after 40 is gravy.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> >
> > I've always viewed that the human body evolved to live 39 years. Half
of
> > our forbearers became sabertooth tiger chow long before they reached
that
> > age.
> >
> > I've never understood the drive to live forever. More people should
visit
> > nursing homes and think about it.
> >
> > Chas.
>
> You got the wrong picture. People live in nursing homes because of the
> effects of aging. Aging kills people slowly starting as early as 13
> years old. There is nothing that makes aging significantly different
> from other diseases.
>
> You would think a cure for such horrible slow death would be something
> people would research. Nothing could be further from the truth.
>
> People are happy to die slowly and they want everyone else to die with
> them. They want everyone to die slowly and horribly.
>
> I know it sounds rather weird but it's the truth.
>
> Modern day medicine descends from dentist butchers. They cant even be
> bothered to make basic suggestions about nutrition. There is no
> medicine to sell to people who are not ill. Your body can manage all
> types of cell aging, all except the really really really slow kind.
> This is because we just didn't get that old in the old days! It all
> boils down to us not doing the billion Euro research we should be
> doing.
>
> Cancer research is not anti aging research.
>
> Aids research is not anti aging research.
>
> Having vitamin C in your diet would probably make 20% of the
> difference.
>
> That wouldn't cure death from old age but it would remove our
> amplification of the undesired phenomenon.
>
> I hear about an experiment in a prison. They inmates all had multiple
> life sentences. One group would live the way they always did, the
> other group got lots of vitamins. (closer to to much as to little)
>
> After 3 months the inmates in group 2 where sitting in the hallway
> playing chess, laughing, singing and making music. In group 1 they
> would still kill a person per day on average.
>
> We cant say they died from lack of nutrition but we sure as hell cant
> say it wasn't related.
>
> ""De Grey says that not all of the conditions that cause our bodies to
> age can be avoided or prevented...yet. "But I do claim that we have a
> fighting chance of developing ways to prevent them within the next 25
> years or so.""
>
> If we develop tech to have 10 years worth of extra life every 5 years
> then we will never die.
>
> In theory you can be as vital as a 20 year old when you are two
> hundred years old. Suggestions of nursing homes would make you laugh
> for decade after decade.
>
> And just like the way we got this old at about 500 years of age other
> degradation shows up. This is just as curable as today's medicine
> compared to 500 years ago.
>
> You would have up to 2508 to find a solution.
>
> It would be peanuts by then.
>
> I suggest we use our war budgets for this.
>
> Why buy death if we can but life?
>
> Why a nursing home if you can have your own planet?
>
> ____
> http://blog.360.yahoo.com/factuurexpress

Many of the ideas about life extension fall into the domain of 3 groups of
people looking for financial gain:

1. Food supplement hawkers.
2. Authors writing books on life extension.
3. Quacks who are also usually in group 1 and/or 2.

Consumers of these products need to refer to 2 Latin phrases:

1. Cui bono (who benefits)
2. Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware)

Life extension really comes down to a lot of quality of life issues. It's
possible now and in the near future to enjoy better physical health for
many years longer but issues related mental deterioration to may never be
solved.

My dad lived independently to age 95. He was sharp as a tack until the day
he died. He outlived all of his friends and ended up associating with
their 70 something sons. He used to say "the longer you live the more
people you know who died".

Last fall we had to put my brother-in law into an assisted living
facility because he can no longer take care of himself. He's 84, in great
health and better physical shape than most people in their 60s. His short
term memory is shot. He suffering from the old catch-all term "senile
dementia" - they don't know what's wrong with him. CRS disease - can't
remember sh*t....

There are a whole bunch of factors that affect life expectancy; genetics,
environment, lifestyle and just plain luck all play a part. Getting hit by
a train or struck by lightening messes up the actuary tables.

So buy my book, send me lots of money and I'll send you some expensive
vitamins and sugar pills plus instructions on how to live your life.

"Is that a real pancho or a Sears pancho"? ;-)

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:17 AM

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <fmc9qo$8tc$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article <fmb8an$asf$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
>>> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>>> In article
>>>>> <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
>>>>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Per * * Chas:
>>>>>>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
>>>>>>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
>>>>>>> negatively affected by stress.
>>>>>> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
>>>>>> day-to-day lives was important.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
>>>>>> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
>>>>>> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
>>>>> Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
>>>>> solely to amuse oneself, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
>>>>> capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
>>>>>
>>>> Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?
>>> What are you talking about?
>>>
>> That reply is for when people post without quoting previous text for
>> content, no?
>
> What is the relevance of your reply to the context?
>
Do the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay have the capacity to take control of
the central aspects of their being?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 12:17 AM

In article <fme14b$oj7$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <fmc9qo$8tc$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
> > Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Press wrote:
> >>> In article <fmb8an$asf$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
> >>> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Michael Press wrote:
> >>>>> In article
> >>>>> <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
> >>>>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Per * * Chas:
> >>>>>>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
> >>>>>>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
> >>>>>>> negatively affected by stress.
> >>>>>> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
> >>>>>> day-to-day lives was important.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
> >>>>>> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
> >>>>>> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
> >>>>> Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
> >>>>> solely to amuse oneself, though.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
> >>>>> capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?
> >>> What are you talking about?
> >>>
> >> That reply is for when people post without quoting previous text for
> >> content, no?
> >
> > What is the relevance of your reply to the context?
> >
> Do the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay have the capacity to take control of
> the central aspects of their being?

We all find our selves in situations.
We contribute to our situations.
You often complain about your workplace situation.
I get the idea that it is none of your doing.
In that case we disagree fundamentally.

--
Michael Press

Jay Beattie

01-04-1970, 12:18 AM

On Jan 13, 3:55*pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> J
>
> > It could also be postural hypotension -- blood pressure drop when you
> > go from hunched over your bars to standing up. *It could also be inner-
> > ear, or so I am told (which goes with a viral infection). *I have a
> > real problem with standing up fast and passing out or almost passing
> > out. *It is worse when I am physically exhausted but usually not so
> > bad that I cannot get to my knees before I fall. My doctors have told
> > me not to stand up fast, which I do not find amusing. I am supposed to
> > go get screened for inner-ear problems. *My BP at age 50 is low but
> > not abnormally so (107/68). BMI, PFT and EKG are all good. It's just
> > one of those freaky things I guess. *I'll let you know if I drop dead.
> > -- Jay Beattie.
>
> -----------
> Although I haven't been to a Doctor, I
> have the same thing, probably for the
> reason you stated. *It seems to
> intensify the older I get. *But your
> Doctor gave good advice (don't stand up
> fast), every time I forget, it's quite a
> trip. *But it isn't exactly something
> you do all the time either. * It usually
> happens to me at store, when I'm
> checking out something on the bottom
> shelf, and then suddenly stand up, and
> it's like whoooooa, hold on there.

It can be very embarrassing in a professional setting and scary to
other people -- those who love me, and those who fear me falling on
them. At least I have my hair and don't need diapers . . . yet. I'll
tell you, growing old really is not for sissies. -- Jay Beattie.

* * Chas

01-04-1970, 12:18 AM

"Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote in message
news:PaCdnapl9ZYHXRfanZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13oem3sgg22ab7f@corp.supernews.com...
> > After the heart attack death of Mike Janelle http://mikejanelle.com/
> > at age 40 over Thanksgiving, I think it's time to revisit is cycling
> > dangerous to your health. We have seen many cases where pro-cyclists
> > often die of heart attacks in the 50's and rarely make it past their
> > 60's, I think someone, somewhere should really study what cycling does
> > to the heart. Is it the strain on the heart, that eventually weakens
> > it, why does cycling usually lead to a fatal heart attack? We owe to
> > the fallen, to find the real answer.
>
> 1: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5):886-97. Links
> Exercise and acute cardiovascular events: placing the risks into
> perspective.
> American College of Sports Medicine; American Heart Association.
> Habitual physical activity reduces coronary heart disease events, but
> vigorous activity can also acutely and transiently increase the risk of
> sudden cardiac death and acute myocardial infarction in susceptible
> persons. This scientific statement discusses the potential
> cardiovascular complications of exercise, their pathological substrate,
> and their incidence and suggests strategies to reduce these
> complications. Exercise-associated acute cardiac events generally occur
> in individuals with structural cardiac disease. Hereditary or congenital
> cardiovascular abnormalities are predominantly responsible for cardiac
> events among young individuals, whereas atherosclerotic disease is
> primarily responsible for these events in adults. The absolute rate of
> exercise-related sudden cardiac death varies with the prevalence of
> disease in the study population. The incidence of both acute myocardial
> infarction and sudden death is greatest in the habitually least
> physically active individuals. No strategies have been adequately
> studied to evaluate their ability to reduce exercise-related acute
> cardiovascular events. Maintaining physical fitness through regular
> physical activity may help to reduce events because a disproportionate
> number of events occur in least physically active subjects performing
> unaccustomed physical activity. Other strategies, such as screening
> patients before participation in exercise, excluding high-risk patients
> from certain activities, promptly evaluating possible prodromal
> symptoms, training fitness personnel for emergencies, and encouraging
> patients to avoid high-risk activities, appear prudent but have not been
> systematically evaluated.
>
> PMID: 17468590 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> Phil Holman
>

Great info...

Chas.

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 12:18 AM

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <fme14b$oj7$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article <fmc9qo$8tc$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
>>> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>>> In article <fmb8an$asf$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
>>>>> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>> <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Per * * Chas:
>>>>>>>>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
>>>>>>>>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
>>>>>>>>> negatively affected by stress.
>>>>>>>> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
>>>>>>>> day-to-day lives was important.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
>>>>>>>> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
>>>>>>>> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
>>>>>>> Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
>>>>>>> solely to amuse oneself, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
>>>>>>> capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?
>>>>> What are you talking about?
>>>>>
>>>> That reply is for when people post without quoting previous text for
>>>> content, no?
>>> What is the relevance of your reply to the context?
>>>
>> Do the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay have the capacity to take control of
>> the central aspects of their being?
>
> We all find our selves in situations.
> We contribute to our situations.
>
Yes, getting turned in for bounty money, by those who have no morality
but greed.
>
> You often complain about your workplace situation.
> I get the idea that it is none of your doing.
> In that case we disagree fundamentally.
>
I get the idea the Michael Press has no clue to what he is talking about
in this case.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 12:19 AM

In article <fmei98$2nt$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <fme14b$oj7$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
> > Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Press wrote:
> >>> In article <fmc9qo$8tc$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
> >>> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Michael Press wrote:
> >>>>> In article <fmb8an$asf$3@registered.motzarella.org>,
> >>>>> Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Michael Press wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article
> >>>>>>> <vn2io31q7250m3k3m6phcc9o2ov56usn3l@4ax.com>,
> >>>>>>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Per * * Chas:
> >>>>>>>>> On the other side of the coin some people like trial lawyers, surgeons and
> >>>>>>>>> others who live a stress junkie life style supposedly don't seem to be
> >>>>>>>>> negatively affected by stress.
> >>>>>>>> I always heard that the amount of control people had over their
> >>>>>>>> day-to-day lives was important.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Stress" without control is one thing, "stress" where the person
> >>>>>>>> has a lot of control - like a senior executive (as in "I don't
> >>>>>>>> get ulcers... I *give* ulcers...") - is a another.
> >>>>>>> Yes, good point. No reason to make trouble for others
> >>>>>>> solely to amuse oneself, though.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And everyone, regardless of station, has, or had, the
> >>>>>>> capacity to take control of the central aspects of their being.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay included?
> >>>>> What are you talking about?
> >>>>>
> >>>> That reply is for when people post without quoting previous text for
> >>>> content, no?
> >>> What is the relevance of your reply to the context?
> >>>
> >> Do the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay have the capacity to take control of
> >> the central aspects of their being?
> >
> > We all find our selves in situations.
> > We con