What makes a bicycle-safe drive-up window?

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

Here's what I thought of:

Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.

Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.

Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.

Anybody got any other ideas?

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Sherman]

frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
Require businesses that serve the public to allow cyclists to bring
their bicycles inside.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Feb 5, 7:54*pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. *A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?

[snip]

Dear Frank,

One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.

See the very bottom of this summary of Maine bicycle laws:

"In addition these operational laws, [LD1808] provides in Title 14:
COURT PROCEDURE -- CIVIL, §159-D, that businesses operating drive-up
windows, such as banks, restaurants, pharamacies, ATMs, etc. are
extended a liablity waiver for bicyclists using the drive-up window,
so that they may allow cyclists use of the window at the cyclist's own
risk."

http://bike.meetup.com/132/pages/Summary_of_Maine_Bicycle_Laws

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<4d309f81-db0d-4bec-a5f7-809ab6c19afd@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:

> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?

Beware of unintended consequences.

> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

In my opinion, you may be overthinking this. Most cyclists are capable
of negotiating normal road conditions, which they will encounter on the
way to the drive-in regardless (that certainly goes for a snowy road).

Further, most businesses are motivated not to create dangerous
conditions for their patrons (lawsuits, dontcha know). Most drive-up
windows serve motorcyclists already, and almost everything that's a
hazard to a motorcycle is a hazard to a bicycle.

> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?

I'd start by finding out what safety concerns (presumably driven by
specific insurance requirements) lead drive-up windows to outlaw
bicycles in the first place.

My caution about unintended consequences was that it's entirely possible
that if you set the bar for bicycle accommodation too high, businesses
will regard the entire affair as much too much trouble and pull some
unexpected move like banning bicycles from their property altogether.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Werehatrack]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:54:19 -0800 (PST), frkrygow@gmail.com may have
said:

>A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
>safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
>that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
>vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
>So what might be specifics?
>
>Here's what I thought of:
>
>Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
>1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
>pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
>Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
>Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
>be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
>businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
>Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
>bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
>(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
>a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
>Anybody got any other ideas?

Prohibit blind corners that keep a car or SUV driver from seeing the
bike that's just ahead of them. Too many cage jockeys pull away from
the order spot with their attention on something other than what's in
front of them, and if their line of sight was obscured just enough to
keep thm from seeing the bike that was next ahead of them, they will
blithely run right into it.



--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Eric Vey]

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Gee. Are you building a mountain? I use bank drive-thrus on my bike all
the time, but I don't eat much pseudo food, so my experiences are
limited. I've never had anyone give me a hard time at a drive-thru.

I would think that a business that kept the place safe for autos would
be sufficient. The property owners don't want negligence lawsuits.
Smooth metal would be unsafe for autos as well as bikes. I'm used to
dealing with poorly maintained roads that may have large cracks and
other longitudinal issues. Grates with holes large enough for a tire to
drop in should be banned city wide, not just at drive-thrus.

As far as detectors, wouldn't a door bell buzzer work as well? Automatic
detectors often seem to fail even for cars and I often wish, while
driving my car, that there was some manual way to let the light know I
am there.

[Ron Wallenfang]

On Feb 5, 8:54*pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. *A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. *That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? *Perhaps salted, if necessary? *(This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. *But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. *That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Until last month, I had never had a problem getting "bike - thru"
service at a variety of fast food places, bank drive throughs and a
Walgreen's pharmacy. But late on a weekday night in January, after
indoor service was closed, I was refused service at a McDonald's drive-
through in Rockford, IL. Whatever the reason for the policy, there
was no immediate safety issue as there were no other vehicles in
sight. My annoyance was limited by the fact that my car was at the
nearby motel I had just checked into, so I went back with it.

I'm not a particular "there ought to be a law" type of person, so I'm
not in a hurry to look for a remedy for what appeared to be an
isolated incident. But apparently, some of the rest of you have had
problems, too.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

I just found this.

http://www.midflorida.com/interest/0108/bike-thru-banking.htm

Nice!

- Frank Krygowski

[ycleptor2@cs.com]

On Feb 5, 9:54 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
I find this topic quite amusing. My local bank, which I frequent with
some regularity on my bicycle, removed its pedestrian and wheelchair
friendly ATM station some years ago leaving only the drive up. The
drive up ATM, to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, has
Braille instruction. From the way the drivers often behave when I am
in line on my cycle ahead of them, the Braille is needed. They'll honk
and yell for me to use the walk-up. There is no walk-up. The drive
through is also the walk-up window. At least there are speed bumps,
but I pity the blind wheelchair user who must navigate over them
before searching for the Braille instruction on ATM use. I wonder if
the drivers honk at wheelchairs.

I'd say if you want a bicycle safe-drive through, see to it that every
bank has a walk up window on a sidewalk or pedestrian area. That
should make it safer for pedestrians, cyclists, and the handicapped
until the SUV owners start using their offroad capabilities to drive
on sidwalks to avoid congestion on the streets and highways.

Cheers,
MD

[bigjimpack@gmail.com]

I use any drive through I need to and never had any problems.


On Feb 5, 9:54*pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. *A person who's pushing for
> that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> So what might be specifics?
>
> Here's what I thought of:
>
> Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
> 1/2 inch. *That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
> pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>
> Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>
> Keep it shoveled in snow? *Perhaps salted, if necessary? *(This could
> be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. *But then, I think
> businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>
> Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
> bicycle. *That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
> (where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
> a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>
> Anybody got any other ideas?
>
> - Frank Krygowski

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Feb 5, 9:23*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:

> One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
> bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.

I'm trying to think of a situation where MVD'ers would be more PO'd
than waiting behind a cyclist using a DUW.

Maybe Critical Mass. But that's about it.

So, the "at their own risk" would have to not disallow penalties for
being run over from behind on purpose.

But this isn't _really_ about safety:

"This here drive-up is for CARS!!!" If you know what I mean...

--D-y

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 04:30:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com>
may have said:

>I'd start by finding out what safety concerns (presumably driven by
>specific insurance requirements) lead drive-up windows to outlaw
>bicycles in the first place.

I have heard a rumor that one burger chain banned bikes in the DT lane
after getting units held up by armed pedallers twice, but that may be
apocryphal. (Bikes not having a tag to be recorded by the security
cam, they might be leery of a late-night cyclist.)

IMO, the biggest hazard in the DT lane is the idjit in the Suburban
behind you who's fishing in his pockets for his wallet while yakking
on the cell phone as he pulls forward in the lane. You're in a
no-escape location while waiting in that lane, and if the attention of
the fool behind you lapses, it could get ugly in a hurry.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<19ef3593-6ce5-4cdc-82f9-8925b1305959@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"dustoyevsky@mac.com" <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:

> On Feb 5, 9:23*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> > One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
> > bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.
>
> I'm trying to think of a situation where MVD'ers would be more PO'd
> than waiting behind a cyclist using a DUW.
>
> Maybe Critical Mass. But that's about it.
>
> So, the "at their own risk" would have to not disallow penalties for
> being run over from behind on purpose.

The waiver absolves the business, not other drivers. And it's a good
idea.

> But this isn't _really_ about safety:
>
> "This here drive-up is for CARS!!!" If you know what I mean...

More than anything, the issue probably involves The Unknown, and
Therefore Uninsurable. Carl's pointer to a waiver is probably the best
solution, just as similar waivers have made private-property owners
amenable to trails crossing their land.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Harry Brogan]

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 02:16:52 -0600, Werehatrack
<rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:54:19 -0800 (PST), frkrygow@gmail.com may have
>said:
>
>>A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
>>safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
>>that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
>>vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>>
>>So what might be specifics?
>>
>>Here's what I thought of:
>>
>>Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
>>1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
>>pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.
>>
>>Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.
>>
>>Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
>>be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
>>businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)
>>
>>Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
>>bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
>>(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
>>a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.
>>
>>Anybody got any other ideas?
>
>Prohibit blind corners that keep a car or SUV driver from seeing the
>bike that's just ahead of them. Too many cage jockeys pull away from
>the order spot with their attention on something other than what's in
>front of them, and if their line of sight was obscured just enough to
>keep thm from seeing the bike that was next ahead of them, they will
>blithely run right into it.
>



It would seem to me that "drive=thru" means just that. And that would
be for cars. After all....aren't we "riding" and not "driving"?????
But I am sure that a lot of people have an opinion on that subject.
Whenever I go someplace that offers drive-thru I still opt to go
inside. ((See the Lethal Weapon movie with Joe Pesci))

They seems to always screw my order up in the drive thru.

I simply roll the trike either up as close to the doors as I can get
it or just inside the entry way. Works out for the best in most cases
and I have only been asked to leave once. Which I then called their
corporate office and got quite the apology.

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 08:13:40 -0600, Harry Brogan
<hbrogan57@NOSPAM.YAHOO.COM> may have said:

>On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 02:16:52 -0600, Werehatrack
><rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:54:19 -0800 (PST), frkrygow@gmail.com may have
>>said:
>>
>>>Anybody got any other ideas?
>>
>>Prohibit blind corners that keep a car or SUV driver from seeing the
>>bike that's just ahead of them. Too many cage jockeys pull away from
>>the order spot with their attention on something other than what's in
>>front of them, and if their line of sight was obscured just enough to
>>keep thm from seeing the bike that was next ahead of them, they will
>>blithely run right into it.
>>
>
>
>
>It would seem to me that "drive=thru" means just that. And that would
>be for cars. After all....aren't we "riding" and not "driving"?????
>But I am sure that a lot of people have an opinion on that subject.
>Whenever I go someplace that offers drive-thru I still opt to go
>inside. ((See the Lethal Weapon movie with Joe Pesci))
>
>They seems to always screw my order up in the drive thru.
>
>I simply roll the trike either up as close to the doors as I can get
>it or just inside the entry way. Works out for the best in most cases
>and I have only been asked to leave once. Which I then called their
>corporate office and got quite the apology.

There's one circumstance under which I can see a theoretical objection
to completely banning bikes in the drive-through, though I find it
hard to put much personal interest in it. Late at night, when I
wouldn't want to be abroad on two wheels anyway, many of the purveyors
of questionable comestibles serve customers only via the drive-thru,
and most of them in this area will not serve anyone who does not
arrive in (or on) a motor vehicle. They say it's for safety reasons,
and that's probably a big part of it...but I remain amused by the
memory of seeing two riders on horseback in the drive-through of a DQ
just south of Dallas, and I have to wonder if they would refuse
service to a mounted customer around here.

There's a 24-hour JackInTheBox drive through nearby; I haven't tried
to use it on the bike, but I might take a look at their signs when I
next go past.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

> But I am sure that a lot of people have an opinion on that subject.

I do. As a motorcyclist, I've never in my life seen a drive through
that bans motorcycles. Motorcyclists are riding too, are they not?


> Whenever I go someplace that offers drive-thru I still opt to go
> inside. ((See the Lethal Weapon movie with Joe Pesci))
>
> They seems to always screw my order up in the drive thru.

I like drive thru banks. I don't care for fast food, so I'm not
overly familiar with that aspect. I did switch banks years ago when
my bank banned bicycles at the drive through, and have since made sure
my bank of choice does allow bikes at the drive thru.


> I simply roll the trike either up as close to the doors as I can get
> it or just inside the entry way. Works out for the best in most cases
> and I have only been asked to leave once. Which I then called their
> corporate office and got quite the apology.

IME how well received a bicycle being brought into the doorway isn't
the anti-bicycle attitude people often attribute it to, but a result
of conditions. If it's snowy/slushy/salty outside, and there's a
plush carpet throughout the inside, they usually won't respond well to
your bike dripping slush, salt etc. on the carpet. If it's a tiled
floor I don't often (if ever) have a problem.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Feb 6, 10:22 am, Eric Vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
> frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> > A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> > safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. ...

For those who think the entire idea is silly, let me give a bit more
context.

The situation is a company wanting a zoning variance, asking (among
other things) to install a drive-up window where it would normally be
prohibited.

A dedicated cyclist on the zoning board sees this as leverage, a way
to make sure that cyclists get access to this window. (We've all
heard of cases where cyclists have been denied access to such
windows.) He proposed that one condition for approving the variance
would be that cyclists be given safe access.

Another member of the board thought that "safe" access would be too
vague - that the board should spell out at least some specific
conditions.

He could, I suppose, say "Oh, you know... it's just got to be safe."
But since he was asked for specifics, I'm trying to help him.

BTW, there certainly are conditions that are safe for cars but unsafe
for bikes. Longitudinal slots for drain grates are one. A smooth,
wet, narrow metal strip (like a bridge expansion joint or train track)
on a curve is another. I once dropped a motorcycle in a 3 mph turn on
a wet railroad track.

Also: I like Carl's idea of a liability waiver in many situations;
but it may be less useful in this situation, where the company is
already begging the community for permission. Also, while IANAL, I'd
be a bit worried about companies using a liability waiver to neglect
elementary safety concerns.

- Frank Krygowski

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On 2008-02-06, frkrygow@gmail.com <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also: I like Carl's idea of a liability waiver in many situations;
> but it may be less useful in this situation, where the company is
> already begging the community for permission. Also, while IANAL, I'd
> be a bit worried about companies using a liability waiver to neglect
> elementary safety concerns.

IANAL either, but:

Neglecting elementary safety features would verge on commission of gross
negligence, which can't be waived; if the safety feature is elementary,
then the effect of its omission is clearly foreseeable. And gross negligence
can't be waived, no matter how hard companies (and ride organizers) try. So
I'd worry less about that.

However, I despise waivers on principle, so I'd prefer to just focus on
features, and hope the drive-up operator doesn't press for the waiver. You've
already mentioned drain grates and expansion joints, and loop detectors
have been brought up as well (though those can be made to work for bicycles).
Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).

Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
non-drive up customers, if applicable.

--

Kristian Zoerhoff
kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com

[datakoll]

right but why UNSAFE? whatta we gonna do? dismount and piss on the
wall?

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerh...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
> and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).
>
> Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
> non-drive up customers, if applicable.
>

I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
Thanks.

- Frank Krygowski

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

On 2008-02-06, frkrygow@gmail.com <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
>> and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).
>>
>> Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
>> non-drive up customers, if applicable.
>>
>
> I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
> Thanks.

You're welcome. If your zoning board buddy throws any other ideas out there,
would you mind tossing them my way? I recently got named to my village's plan
commission, so I'm going to be in a similar situation soon enough.

--

Kristian Zoerhoff
kristian.zoerhoff@gmail.com

[Matt O'Toole]

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 08:23:23 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

> On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff <kristian.zoerh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
>> and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).
>>
>> Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed
>> for non-drive up customers, if applicable.
>>
>>
> I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
> Thanks.

I'd care more about the latter too. I have little interest in drive up
windows, but I care a lot about bike racks in front of *all* businesses.

Other than that, anything good enough for a motorcycle is good enough for
a bicycle. With experience in both you probably have some good ideas.

While I'm impressed with the earnest answers given here, get yourself on
the Thunderhead list. It's a strictly moderated Q&A forum for
bike/ped/planning/engineering professionals and bona fide advocates, with
a lot of good answers and no crap.

Matt O.

[Ben C]

On 2008-02-06, DanKMTB@gmail.com <DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:
>> But I am sure that a lot of people have an opinion on that subject.
>
> I do. As a motorcyclist, I've never in my life seen a drive through
> that bans motorcycles. Motorcyclists are riding too, are they not?
>
>
>> Whenever I go someplace that offers drive-thru I still opt to go
>> inside. ((See the Lethal Weapon movie with Joe Pesci))
>>
>> They seems to always screw my order up in the drive thru.
>
> I like drive thru banks. I don't care for fast food, so I'm not
> overly familiar with that aspect. I did switch banks years ago when
> my bank banned bicycles at the drive through, and have since made sure
> my bank of choice does allow bikes at the drive thru.

Drive-thru everything would be perfect for cyclists like myself who
don't usually carry a lock.

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 6, 12:29 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> But I am sure that a lot of people have an opinion on that subject.
>
> > I do. As a motorcyclist, I've never in my life seen a drive through
> > that bans motorcycles. Motorcyclists are riding too, are they not?
>
> >> Whenever I go someplace that offers drive-thru I still opt to go
> >> inside. ((See the Lethal Weapon movie with Joe Pesci))
>
> >> They seems to always screw my order up in the drive thru.
>
> > I like drive thru banks. I don't care for fast food, so I'm not
> > overly familiar with that aspect. I did switch banks years ago when
> > my bank banned bicycles at the drive through, and have since made sure
> > my bank of choice does allow bikes at the drive thru.
>
> Drive-thru everything would be perfect for cyclists like myself who
> don't usually carry a lock.

I very rarely carry a lock. Usually I flip the bike upside down,
where I can see it (often inside) for the entirety of my shopping
trip. The only time I'll bring a lock is if I'm going someplace like
Home Depot or the Library, where I may be a while. I still don't
trust to lock a bike outside, but in that circumstance may lock the
bike up inside.

Another handy trick for quick in & out stops where you can see the
bike but may be out of reach is to carry a very small, lightweight
padlock with you. Before leaving the bike, lock the padlock over the
chain and chain ring. This makes pedaling the bike impossible
(assuming the padlock is of any quality) - either the pedals will not
turn or the chain will snap against the lock. Either way, they can no
longer ride the bike, which means I can probably run them down -
especially if they're still trying to keep the bike and as such
running with it or scooting it.

The only problem is resisting the temptation to throw something at
them as I'm running, since the only thing I carry on my person and not
in the pack or the saddlebag is a weapon - something I'd like to keep
from trading possession of for when I catch them. Most of the time
they'll just drop the bike and get to running once they realize it's
been handicapped/boobytrapped.

[Ben C]

On 2008-02-06, DanKMTB@gmail.com <DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 12:29 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
>> On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>> > I like drive thru banks. I don't care for fast food, so I'm not
>> > overly familiar with that aspect. I did switch banks years ago when
>> > my bank banned bicycles at the drive through, and have since made sure
>> > my bank of choice does allow bikes at the drive thru.
>>
>> Drive-thru everything would be perfect for cyclists like myself who
>> don't usually carry a lock.
>
> I very rarely carry a lock. Usually I flip the bike upside down,
> where I can see it (often inside) for the entirety of my shopping
> trip.

I'm a firm believer in what I think may be originally a Brandt-Meme: The
bicycle must never be turned upside down.

I've never heard of it used as a theft deterrent though.

> The only time I'll bring a lock is if I'm going someplace like
> Home Depot or the Library, where I may be a while. I still don't
> trust to lock a bike outside, but in that circumstance may lock the
> bike up inside.

But what can you lock it to inside?

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 6, 12:29 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> >> On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >> > I like drive thru banks. I don't care for fast food, so I'm not
> >> > overly familiar with that aspect. I did switch banks years ago when
> >> > my bank banned bicycles at the drive through, and have since made sure
> >> > my bank of choice does allow bikes at the drive thru.
>
> >> Drive-thru everything would be perfect for cyclists like myself who
> >> don't usually carry a lock.
>
> > I very rarely carry a lock. Usually I flip the bike upside down,
> > where I can see it (often inside) for the entirety of my shopping
> > trip.
>
> I'm a firm believer in what I think may be originally a Brandt-Meme: The
> bicycle must never be turned upside down.
>
> I've never heard of it used as a theft deterrent though.

It buys you a few extra seconds to get out there and strangle the SOB
that's trying to take your baby, I mean bicycle. It also eliminates
the "grab it as I run by in a dead sprint and jump on" - which can
happen way too fast to catch them on foot if the bike is all ready to
go. I also leave it in the absolute lowest gear, again just buys some
time. One can "sprint to grab" a bike that's upright and on a
reasonable gear. Picking it up, turning it around, shifting out of a
gear so low 100RPM cadence is walking speed - that stuff takes time.
Valuable seconds for me to get to the thief. My padlock trick adds
even more time, actually more than the others combined. If you refuse
to flip your bike, the padlock may be for you. You should be able to
get an adjustable shank Master Lock that'll tighten against your seat
rails, so it's always right there with you.


> > The only time I'll bring a lock is if I'm going someplace like
> > Home Depot or the Library, where I may be a while. I still don't
> > trust to lock a bike outside, but in that circumstance may lock the
> > bike up inside.
>
> But what can you lock it to inside?

Depends on the store. Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of and
against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.

[Ben C]

On 2008-02-06, DanKMTB@gmail.com <DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
[...]
>> But what can you lock it to inside?
>
> Depends on the store. Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of and
> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.

Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.

Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies etc.,
never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
control a shopping cart.

[Peter Cole]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-02-06, DanKMTB@gmail.com <DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> [...]
>>> But what can you lock it to inside?
>> Depends on the store. Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of and
>> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
>> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>
> Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>
> Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies etc.,
> never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> control a shopping cart.

One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have an
obvious place to rest a bike indoors.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:12:31 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
<rwallenfang@wi.rr.com> wrote:

>
>, after
>indoor service was closed, I was refused service at a McDonald's drive-
>through in Rockford, IL. Whatever the reason for the policy, there
>was no immediate safety issue as there were no other vehicles in
>sight. My annoyance was limited by the fact that my car was at the
>nearby motel I had just checked into, so I went back with it.

If you can possibly avoid it, don't give business to a place like
that.

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 8, 7:52*am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
> > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> > [...]
> >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> >> Depends on the store. *Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of and
> >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>
> > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>
> > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies etc.,
> > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> > control a shopping cart.
>
> One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have an
> obvious place to rest a bike indoors.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I never thought of it, but a bike shop is one of the few places I find
I'm unable to bring my bike indoors, unless it's there for repairs.
The area by the doors, and most every inch of wall, seems to always be
filled with display bikes.

[Dan Burkhart]

Peter Cole Wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
> > On 2008-02-06, DanKMTB@gmail.com <DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> > [...]
> >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> >> Depends on the store. Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of
> and
> >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
> >
> > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
> >
> > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies
> etc.,
> > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> > control a shopping cart.
>
> One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have
> an
> obvious place to rest a bike indoors.

I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide indoor
parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't say
no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
parking area.
Dan


--
Dan Burkhart

[Brian Huntley]

On Feb 8, 7:52*am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
> > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> > [...]
> >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> >> Depends on the store. *Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of and
> >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>
> > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>
> > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies etc.,
> > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> > control a shopping cart.
>
> One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have an
> obvious place to rest a bike indoors.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My LBS not only has a bike rack just inside the door for customers, it
also has a door opening pushbutton, inside and out.

(They are The Urbane Cyclist, Toronto, Canada. I'm a satisfied
customer.)

[datakoll]

http://www.google.com/search?q=jetty+park&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLJ

nooooooooooooooooo bicycle camping
and word has it, tho I haven't read it thru yet, Fla law supports
this.
keeps the local poor from mungling with cruise ship employees.
and the german tourist?

people riding bicycles are violent, poor, dangerous, and retarded.
no zoning ordinance protects the public beyond an outright ban.
If the drive up at the bank is cycle robbed, the cyclist will ride
away un-noticed and go unsolved.
That's why criminals are continuously advocating cycle friendly drive
ups!
The cops refuse to leave their patrol cars.

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 8, 12:30 pm, Dan Burkhart <Dan.Burkhart.34h...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Peter Cole Wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ben C wrote:
> > > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> > >> Depends on the store. Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of
> > and
> > >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> > >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>
> > > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>
> > > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> > > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> > > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies
> > etc.,
> > > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> > > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> > > control a shopping cart.
>
> > One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have
> > an
> > obvious place to rest a bike indoors.
>
> I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide indoor
> parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't say
> no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
> parking area.
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Burkhart- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I understand 100% and don't hold it against my LBS.

That said, when I go by truck, I hang out, look around, and end up
spending $. Often non-trivial amounts of $. Thing is, I almost never
go by truck - I tend to go by bike. This means I am in and out as
fast as possible, getting only what I needed - say a tube and another
CO2. Also, I am watching my bike every second, not even looking at
the guys I am talking to much less the goodies they have for sale. I
wonder if a small mat by the door for a couple bikes might not be more
profitable than a couple extra new bikes on the floor? If people like
me can bring their baby inside, they are more likely to notice what's
on the floor, the walls and in the case. And being a bike junkie,
when I notice that stuff, my wallet often ends up lighter. However,
if my bike is outside unattended, I wouldn't notice an 85% off sale on
something I was in the market for anyway. If I am relaxed with my
baby indoors, I'll pay retail for that same something. Right now that
something is a helmet, between $100 & $200, but it changes. Not long
ago it was a high dollar set of forks, before that a high end wheel.
To me it seems in the shops best interest to keep me there, so I find
the helmet I want. If I do, I'll buy it. If not, who's to say I
won't go home and find it on Nashbar, content that my bike is safe in
my house with me?

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Feb 8, 10:30*am, Dan Burkhart <Dan.Burkhart.34h...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Peter Cole Wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ben C wrote:
> > > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> > >> Depends on the store. *Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of
> > and
> > >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> > >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>
> > > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>
> > > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> > > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> > > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies
> > etc.,
> > > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> > > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> > > control a shopping cart.
>
> > One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have
> > an
> > obvious place to rest a bike indoors.
>
> I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide indoor
> parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't say
> no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
> parking area.
> Dan

Dear Dan,

Your heart's in the right place, but I'm glad that you don't own a
tack and feed store.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 8, 1:26 pm, "yclept...@cs.com" <yclept...@cs.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:54 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:> A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
> > safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
> > that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
> > vague to be meaningful or enforceable.
>
> I find this topic quite amusing. My local bank, which I frequent with
> some regularity on my bicycle, removed its pedestrian and wheelchair
> friendly ATM station some years ago leaving only the drive up. The
> drive up ATM, to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, has
> Braille instruction.

I'd wager that the ATM had braile even when there was a walk-up. The
drive-thru ATMs have braile because it's cheaper to make a million of
the same than 500,000 with and 500,000 without.


> From the way the drivers often behave when I am
> in line on my cycle ahead of them, the Braille is needed. They'll honk
> and yell for me to use the walk-up. There is no walk-up. The drive
> through is also the walk-up window. At least there are speed bumps,
> but I pity the blind wheelchair user who must navigate over them
> before searching for the Braille instruction on ATM use. I wonder if
> the drivers honk at wheelchairs.

Those less fortunate and/or able tend to get a pass. Do they honk at
you before you're at the ATM, or when you're there? If they are
honking saying "use the walk-up" before you get there, I suggest
turning and saying "why don't you use the walk-up? It appears you're
the one who needs the exercise, I powered my vehicle here with my own
2 legs".

The only time I really see honking @ the ATM around here is when
someone completes their transaction but insists on spending another 3
minutes putting everything in it's proper place before pulling away.
In that case, I believe it's well deserved. Pull forward a car
length, stop, and then get your 20 things situated just right while
the person behind you is using the machine you're finished with.


> I'd say if you want a bicycle safe-drive through, see to it that every
> bank has a walk up window on a sidewalk or pedestrian area.

Walk-up is often going to be less convient than drive-up for a
cyclist.


> That
> should make it safer for pedestrians, cyclists, and the handicapped
> until the SUV owners start using their offroad capabilities to drive
> on sidwalks to avoid congestion on the streets and highways.

We already do that in some situations :)

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 8, 1:34*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Feb 8, 10:30*am, Dan Burkhart <Dan.Burkhart.34h...@no-
>
>
>
>
>
> mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> > Peter Cole Wrote:
>
> > > Ben C wrote:
> > > > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> > > >> Depends on the store. *Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of
> > > and
> > > >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> > > >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>
> > > > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>
> > > > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> > > > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> > > > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies
> > > etc.,
> > > > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> > > > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> > > > control a shopping cart.
>
> > > One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have
> > > an
> > > obvious place to rest a bike indoors.
>
> > I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide indoor
> > parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't say
> > no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
> > parking area.
> > Dan
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> Your heart's in the right place, but I'm glad that you don't own a
> tack and feed store.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"Dear" Carl,

If you're so sure I'm wrong, why not elaborate on why and perhaps
discuss or debate it, instead of retorting to being snide?

[Dan Burkhart]

carlfogel@comcast.net Wrote:
> On Feb 8, 10:30*am, Dan Burkhart <Dan.Burkhart.34h...@no-
> mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> > Peter Cole Wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Ben C wrote:
> > > > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> > > >> Depends on the store. *Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside
> of
> > > and
> > > >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly
> scooter"
> > > >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
> >
> > > > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
> >
> > > > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my
> nice
> > > > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled
> it
> > > > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying
> pies
> > > etc.,
> > > > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind
> much.
> > > > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying
> to
> > > > control a shopping cart.
> >
> > > One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't
> have
> > > an
> > > obvious place to rest a bike indoors.
> >
> > I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide
> indoor
> > parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't
> say
> > no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
> > parking area.
> > Dan
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> Your heart's in the right place, but I'm glad that you don't own a
> tack and feed store.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Yup. The horse stays outside too.
Dan


--
Dan Burkhart

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:55:05 -0800 (PST), "DanKMTB@gmail.com"
<DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:


>I'd wager that the ATM had braile even when there was a walk-up. The
>drive-thru ATMs have braile because it's cheaper to make a million of
>the same than 500,000 with and 500,000 without.

Dear Dank,

Actually, braille was required by law:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_010.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:59:11 -0800 (PST), "DanKMTB@gmail.com"
<DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 8, 1:34*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Feb 8, 10:30*am, Dan Burkhart <Dan.Burkhart.34h...@no-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>> > Peter Cole Wrote:
>>
>> > > Ben C wrote:
>> > > > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
>> > > > [...]
>> > > >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
>> > > >> Depends on the store. *Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of
>> > > and
>> > > >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
>> > > >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>>
>> > > > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>>
>> > > > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
>> > > > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
>> > > > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies
>> > > etc.,
>> > > > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
>> > > > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
>> > > > control a shopping cart.
>>
>> > > One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have
>> > > an
>> > > obvious place to rest a bike indoors.
>>
>> > I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide indoor
>> > parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't say
>> > no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
>> > parking area.
>> > Dan
>>
>> Dear Dan,
>>
>> Your heart's in the right place, but I'm glad that you don't own a
>> tack and feed store.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>"Dear" Carl,
>
>If you're so sure I'm wrong, why not elaborate on why and perhaps
>discuss or debate it, instead of resorting to being snide?

Dear Dank,

Er, I replied to a post from Dan Burkhart.

Possibly this symbol will help?

:)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 8, 2:25*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:59:11 -0800 (PST), "DanK...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 8, 1:34*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On Feb 8, 10:30*am, Dan Burkhart <Dan.Burkhart.34h...@no-
>
> >> mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> >> > Peter Cole Wrote:
>
> >> > > Ben C wrote:
> >> > > > On 2008-02-06, DanK...@gmail.com <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > >> On Feb 6, 2:39 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> >> > > > [...]
> >> > > >>> But what can you lock it to inside?
> >> > > >> Depends on the store. *Big pipe bracketed to the wall, outside of
> >> > > and
> >> > > >> against the rail of a shopping cart coral, or the "elderly scooter"
> >> > > >> coral, railing by door - it's a case-by-case thing.
>
> >> > > > Maybe I'll try bringing it into the shop more.
>
> >> > > > Once or twice due to bad planning I've ended up at a shop on my nice
> >> > > > bike after lots of miles and needing lunch, and I've just wheeled it
> >> > > > straight in and clattered around the aisles in cleats buying pies
> >> > > etc.,
> >> > > > never letting go of the bike at any time. Nobody seems to mind much.
> >> > > > After all wheeling a bike around has got to be safer than trying to
> >> > > > control a shopping cart.
>
> >> > > One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have
> >> > > an
> >> > > obvious place to rest a bike indoors.
>
> >> > I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide indoor
> >> > parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't say
> >> > no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
> >> > parking area.
> >> > Dan
>
> >> Dear Dan,
>
> >> Your heart's in the right place, but I'm glad that you don't own a
> >> tack and feed store.
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> >"Dear" Carl,
>
> >If you're so sure I'm wrong, why not elaborate on why and perhaps
> >discuss or debate it, instead of resorting to being snide?
>
> Dear Dank,
>
> Er, I replied to a post from Dan Burkhart.
>
> Possibly this symbol will help?
>
> *:)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oops! if only there were an ascii symbol for the blushing smilie.
Sorry about that Carl!

I remain curious how a bike shop owner would feel about my theory (on
bike parking, not ATM braile!)

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 8, 2:28*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:55:05 -0800 (PST), "DanK...@gmail.com"
>
> <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I'd wager that the ATM had braile even when there was a walk-up. *The
> >drive-thru ATMs have braile because it's cheaper to make a million of
> >the same than 500,000 with and 500,000 without.
>
> Dear Dank,
>
> Actually, braille was required by law:
> *http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_010.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Interesting. It appears I stand corrected. I don't know where I
heard the "less expensive than making 2 kinds" thing, but I've been of
that impression for a long time. Thanks for the info, anyway.

[datakoll]

On Feb 8, 2:28*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:55:05 -0800 (PST), "DanK...@gmail.com"
>
> <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I'd wager that the ATM had braile even when there was a walk-up. *The
> >drive-thru ATMs have braile because it's cheaper to make a million of
> >the same than 500,000 with and 500,000 without.
>
> Dear Dank,
>
> Actually, braille was required by law:
> *http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_010.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

ahhhhahahhahaunghunghunghhahhahahsnort

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<f90db581-1959-4bb1-a3ba-2ca9c4083814@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com>,
"DanKMTB@gmail.com" <DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 8, 2:25*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:59:11 -0800 (PST), "DanK...@gmail.com"
> >
> > <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Feb 8, 1:34*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> > >> On Feb 8, 10:30*am, Dan Burkhart <Dan.Burkhart.34h...@no-
> >
> > >> mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> > >> > Peter Cole Wrote:

> > >> > > One of the things that peeves me a bit is bike shops that don't have
> > >> > > an
> > >> > > obvious place to rest a bike indoors.
> >
> > >> > I would love to be able to afford the square footage to provide indoor
> > >> > parking. If anyone asks to bring their bike inside, I usually don't
> > >> > say
> > >> > no, but there is no way I have the space to put aside as a dedicated
> > >> > parking area.
> > >> > Dan
> >
> > >> Dear Dan,
> >
> > >> Your heart's in the right place, but I'm glad that you don't own a
> > >> tack and feed store.
> >
> > >> Cheers,
> >
> > >> Carl Fogel
> >
> > >"Dear" Carl,
> >
> > >If you're so sure I'm wrong, why not elaborate on why and perhaps
> > >discuss or debate it, instead of resorting to being snide?
> >
> > Dear Dank,
> >
> > Er, I replied to a post from Dan Burkhart.
> >
> > Possibly this symbol will help?
> >
> > *:)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Carl Fogel- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Oops! if only there were an ascii symbol for the blushing smilie.
> Sorry about that Carl!
>
> I remain curious how a bike shop owner would feel about my theory (on
> bike parking, not ATM braile!)

Every local bike shop I have ever entered has been sanguine (or even
downright encouraging) about the possibility of me bringing my bike
inside and leaving it...somewhere. Virtually none of them had any sort
of dedicated indoor place to store the bikes, and virtually all of them
had outdoor racks.

For me, it's largely a matter of practicality. When I have a suitable
lock, I tend to leave my bike outside. When I don't, I tend to leave it
inside, and in almost any circumstance I would not bring it into a bike
shop that was sufficiently busy that my bike would be in the way (I
would come back later rather than be such a nuisance).

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:17:09 -0800 (PST), "DanKMTB@gmail.com"
<DanKMTB@gmail.com> wrote:

>Oops! if only there were an ascii symbol for the blushing smilie.
>Sorry about that Carl!
>
>I remain curious how a bike shop owner would feel about my theory (on
>bike parking, not ATM braile!)

Dear Dank,

Glad we're on the same page now.

As for indoor bike parking at local bike shops, it's actually less of
a problem where I live.

Pueblo is so dry that bikes usually cause no mess when wheeled in the
front door, through the showroom, around the counter, and back into
the shop.

Sadly, the local bike shops around here do so little business that
volume isn't a problem.

But bicycles might not be so welcome indoors in places where rain,
slush, and snow are common and where customers are more numerous.

Bikes just don't clean off as quickly or easily as shoes do on a mat
at the entrance, and they take up a lot more space when dumped by
customers in hurry--many of them don't have sidestands, and lots of
owners aren't about to put their $2,000 pride and joy too close to
some WalMart special.

Apart from the muddy tires, there's the frozen mess on the frames and
fenders, thawing and dripping inside the store. Even if there's an
indoor corral near the front door, the customers need more mats and
space to avoid tracking stuff out into the rest of the store--and
someone has to clean up the indoor corral, too.

Luckily, local bike shop owners can do as they please about providing
indoor parking. Maybe this thread will lead to a wave of "free indoor
parking" signs. (Valet parking seems too much to hope for.)

But customers should ponder the costs in shop space, cleaning, and
convenience before finding new nits to pick with shops that are rarely
choking on excess cash flow. Many local bike shops would be hard
pressed to find a separate area for a dozen customers to park their
bikes indoors--they want to use that space to sell stuff to stay in
business.

There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
were plastered on the walls?

In any case, posters demanding indoor bicycle parking at local bike
shops would be wise to come up with a good answer to the shop's offer
to sell them a good bicycle lock.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Peter Cole]

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

> Luckily, local bike shop owners can do as they please about providing
> indoor parking.

I don't know why that's "lucky".

> Maybe this thread will lead to a wave of "free indoor
> parking" signs. (Valet parking seems too much to hope for.)

There is a local barbecue restaurant that offers valet parking:

"In 1996, Redbones introduced first-in-the-nation Bicycle Valet parking
to Davis Square. The year round service provides free parking for bikes,
in a secured space, to riders coming to Davis Square regardless of their
destination.

Bike Valet Hours
Sun: 1-10 / Mon-Fri: 6 - Midnight
Saturday: 1 - Midnight "


> But customers should ponder the costs in shop space, cleaning, and
> convenience before finding new nits to pick with shops that are rarely
> choking on excess cash flow. Many local bike shops would be hard
> pressed to find a separate area for a dozen customers to park their
> bikes indoors--they want to use that space to sell stuff to stay in
> business.

Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here". The
former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.


> There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
> bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
> responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
> were plastered on the walls?

Bike shops are loaded with new bikes (among other things). I'd take my
chances.

> In any case, posters demanding indoor bicycle parking at local bike
> shops would be wise to come up with a good answer to the shop's offer
> to sell them a good bicycle lock.

Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions. I understand
that a very small bike shop might have a difficult time providing space,
but I'm struck by the observation that even the bigger ones (at least
around here) don't seem to make even a token effort.

Most retailers accept that they have to provide (directly or otherwise)
motor vehicle parking or lose business. That isn't free, either. Valet
parking for bikes makes sense for a restaurant (given large enough
clientele), after all, it's not a rare service for cars. I'm not
suggesting the same for bike shops, but why do they seem surprised when
a customer shows up by bike?

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Feb 8, 8:09 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> But bicycles might not be so welcome indoors in places where rain,
> slush, and snow are common and where customers are more numerous.
>
> Bikes just don't clean off as quickly or easily as shoes do on a mat
> at the entrance, and they take up a lot more space when dumped by
> customers in hurry--many of them don't have sidestands, and lots of
> owners aren't about to put their $2,000 pride and joy too close to
> some WalMart special.
>
> Apart from the muddy tires, there's the frozen mess on the frames and
> fenders, thawing and dripping inside the store. Even if there's an
> indoor corral near the front door, the customers need more mats and
> space to avoid tracking stuff out into the rest of the store--and
> someone has to clean up the indoor corral, too.

I've come across somewhat unreasonable fear of "bike dirt" just one
time. I was teaching a cycling class in our Village Hall, having
obtained permission, filled out forms, etc. We all had our bikes in
the main room, when a councilwoman came in, frowned, sniffed, and then
told us to get our bikes off the carpet. At the time, the bikes were
at least as clean as her shoes - but not wanting to lose my use of the
room, I chose not to tell her that. At least, not verbally.

It's true that rainy or slushy bikes would be a dripping reservoir of
mess, more so than slushy shoes. I can see restricting those bikes.
But around here, there are very few people riding when it's that
messy.

- Frank Krygowski

[Clive George]

"Peter Cole" <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:U62dnayM7OAr_S3anZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..

> Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
> saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here". The
> former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.

When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?

>> There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
>> bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
>> responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
>> were plastered on the walls?
>
> Bike shops are loaded with new bikes (among other things). I'd take my
> chances.

The new bikes will have the shop staff looking out for them - the same
wouldn't apply to customers stuff.

> Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
> around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
> with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions.

Um, if you're running errands on a bike, you'll want a lock. The people who
do utility cycling understand this. Where to park it is "next to the window"
or "against a wall" or "at the bike stand", and "should I lock it" depends
somewhat on where you are, what sort of bike and how long you're going to
be - eg I'd always lock it in a city, but probably not in a sleepy village.

> Most retailers accept that they have to provide (directly or otherwise)
> motor vehicle parking or lose business. That isn't free, either. Valet
> parking for bikes makes sense for a restaurant (given large enough
> clientele), after all, it's not a rare service for cars. I'm not
> suggesting the same for bike shops, but why do they seem surprised when a
> customer shows up by bike?

Here they don't. But they don't expect people to bring their bikes in
either - they tend to provide bike stands.

clive

[Harry Brogan]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:50:31 -0500, Peter Cole
<peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote:

>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> Luckily, local bike shop owners can do as they please about providing
>> indoor parking.
>
>I don't know why that's "lucky".
>
>> Maybe this thread will lead to a wave of "free indoor
>> parking" signs. (Valet parking seems too much to hope for.)
>
>There is a local barbecue restaurant that offers valet parking:
>
>"In 1996, Redbones introduced first-in-the-nation Bicycle Valet parking
>to Davis Square. The year round service provides free parking for bikes,
>in a secured space, to riders coming to Davis Square regardless of their
>destination.
>
>Bike Valet Hours
>Sun: 1-10 / Mon-Fri: 6 - Midnight
>Saturday: 1 - Midnight "
>
>
>> But customers should ponder the costs in shop space, cleaning, and
>> convenience before finding new nits to pick with shops that are rarely
>> choking on excess cash flow. Many local bike shops would be hard
>> pressed to find a separate area for a dozen customers to park their
>> bikes indoors--they want to use that space to sell stuff to stay in
>> business.
>
>Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
>saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here". The
>former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.
>
>
>> There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
>> bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
>> responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
>> were plastered on the walls?
>
>Bike shops are loaded with new bikes (among other things). I'd take my
>chances.
>
>> In any case, posters demanding indoor bicycle parking at local bike
>> shops would be wise to come up with a good answer to the shop's offer
>> to sell them a good bicycle lock.
>
>Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
>around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
>with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions. I understand
>that a very small bike shop might have a difficult time providing space,
>but I'm struck by the observation that even the bigger ones (at least
>around here) don't seem to make even a token effort.
>
>Most retailers accept that they have to provide (directly or otherwise)
>motor vehicle parking or lose business. That isn't free, either. Valet
>parking for bikes makes sense for a restaurant (given large enough
>clientele), after all, it's not a rare service for cars. I'm not
>suggesting the same for bike shops, but why do they seem surprised when
>a customer shows up by bike?



I agree with that point about a bike shop being surprised when someone
show up on a bike. The shops around here sometimes have a rack
outside. But it is LOADED with new/used bikes. Not much of an option
if you want to lock yours up. One bad thing about leaving it unlocked
is, I have found that people think that MY bike is for sale and I have
found some people attempting to sit on it. ((It's a Trike)) But I
try not to get TOO irritated at this. I usually try and roll up a
little farther away from the bikes for sale. But there are times that
you can't do this.

Sure would be nice if a shop provided a small rack for customers that
are out riding.

[A Muzi]

> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Luckily, local bike shop owners can do as they please about providing
>> indoor parking.

Peter Cole wrote:
> I don't know why that's "lucky".

> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Maybe this thread will lead to a wave of "free indoor
>> parking" signs. (Valet parking seems too much to hope for.)

Peter Cole wrote:
> There is a local barbecue restaurant that offers valet parking:
> "In 1996, Redbones introduced first-in-the-nation Bicycle Valet parking
> to Davis Square. The year round service provides free parking for bikes,
> in a secured space, to riders coming to Davis Square regardless of their
> destination.
> Bike Valet Hours
> Sun: 1-10 / Mon-Fri: 6 - Midnight
> Saturday: 1 - Midnight "

> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> But customers should ponder the costs in shop space, cleaning, and
>> convenience before finding new nits to pick with shops that are rarely
>> choking on excess cash flow. Many local bike shops would be hard
>> pressed to find a separate area for a dozen customers to park their
>> bikes indoors--they want to use that space to sell stuff to stay in
>> business.

> Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
> saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here". The
> former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.

>> There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
>> bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
>> responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
>> were plastered on the walls?

> Bike shops are loaded with new bikes (among other things). I'd take my
> chances.

>> In any case, posters demanding indoor bicycle parking at local bike
>> shops would be wise to come up with a good answer to the shop's offer
>> to sell them a good bicycle lock.

> Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
> around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
> with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions. I understand
> that a very small bike shop might have a difficult time providing space,
> but I'm struck by the observation that even the bigger ones (at least
> around here) don't seem to make even a token effort.
> Most retailers accept that they have to provide (directly or otherwise)
> motor vehicle parking or lose business. That isn't free, either. Valet
> parking for bikes makes sense for a restaurant (given large enough
> clientele), after all, it's not a rare service for cars. I'm not
> suggesting the same for bike shops, but why do they seem surprised when
> a customer shows up by bike?

We have to encourage customers to bring their bikes in the door. Yes,
it's a small space but a couple more bikes won't kill anyone and this
neighborhood is unsafe to park a bike. I'm amazed how many people try to
have a conversation while craning a peek out the window.

"Bring it in already!"
"You mean I can bring my bike _inside_??".

Riders seem to expect a hassle - why, I can't say. Are bike shops that
clueless one can't just ride in?? I bring mine into bank, Post Office,
City/State offices* etc as I don't own a lock.

*except the bunker types with metal detector barriers of course
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Feb 11, 10:55 am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> > Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
> > around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
> > with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions.
>
> Um, if you're running errands on a bike, you'll want a lock. The people who
> do utility cycling understand this. Where to park it is "next to the window"
> or "against a wall" or "at the bike stand", and "should I lock it" depends
> somewhat on where you are, what sort of bike and how long you're going to
> be - eg I'd always lock it in a city, but probably not in a sleepy village.

I agree you want a lock. But for my use, I don't need a "Good Lock."
I've always used a thin (1/8") coated cable with a tiny (1" x 1")
padlock. A professional bike thief would go through this in two
seconds, but I don't frequent places where they're likely to operate,
and I choose my parking places carefully. This has served me well
since about 1980.

- Frank Krygowski

[Marz]

On Feb 11, 9:55*am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:U62dnayM7OAr_S3anZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> > Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
> > saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here". The
> > former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.
>
> When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
> course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?

No, but all car dealers provide parking for your car, the same can't
be said for bike shops. Of the four local bike shops I go to get
stuff, only one provides a stand outside. The others have to put up
with me bringing my bike into the store.

[Peter Cole]

Clive George wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:U62dnayM7OAr_S3anZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>> Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a
>> sign saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes
>> here". The former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's
>> office.
>
> When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
> course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?

How long would a car dealer w/o parking last?


>>> There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
>>> bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
>>> responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
>>> were plastered on the walls?
>>
>> Bike shops are loaded with new bikes (among other things). I'd take my
>> chances.

>
> The new bikes will have the shop staff looking out for them - the same
> wouldn't apply to customers stuff.

Why not?

>
>> Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
>> around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
>> with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions.
>
> Um, if you're running errands on a bike, you'll want a lock. The people
> who do utility cycling understand this.

I do utility cycling and I find a lock a nuisance.

[A Muzi]

Clive George wrote:
> When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
> course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?

I was at a big Chevy dealership to get parts for a girlfriend's car and
parked a very clean flashy and fast '65 Chevy convertible in their lot
right at the door.

"Parts Department?"
"Other side of the building. And can you move your car? We don't like
old cars near the showroom"

Left and never went back.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Feb 11, 11:00 am, Harry Brogan <hbroga...@NOSPAM.YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:50:31 -0500, Peter Cole
>
>
>
> <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> >> Luckily, local bike shop owners can do as they please about providing
> >> indoor parking.
>
> >I don't know why that's "lucky".
>
> >> Maybe this thread will lead to a wave of "free indoor
> >> parking" signs. (Valet parking seems too much to hope for.)
>
> >There is a local barbecue restaurant that offers valet parking:
>
> >"In 1996, Redbones introduced first-in-the-nation Bicycle Valet parking
> >to Davis Square. The year round service provides free parking for bikes,
> >in a secured space, to riders coming to Davis Square regardless of their
> >destination.
>
> >Bike Valet Hours
> >Sun: 1-10 / Mon-Fri: 6 - Midnight
> >Saturday: 1 - Midnight "
>
> >> But customers should ponder the costs in shop space, cleaning, and
> >> convenience before finding new nits to pick with shops that are rarely
> >> choking on excess cash flow. Many local bike shops would be hard
> >> pressed to find a separate area for a dozen customers to park their
> >> bikes indoors--they want to use that space to sell stuff to stay in
> >> business.
>
> >Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
> >saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here". The
> >former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.
>
> >> There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
> >> bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
> >> responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
> >> were plastered on the walls?
>
> >Bike shops are loaded with new bikes (among other things). I'd take my
> >chances.
>
> >> In any case, posters demanding indoor bicycle parking at local bike
> >> shops would be wise to come up with a good answer to the shop's offer
> >> to sell them a good bicycle lock.
>
> >Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
> >around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
> >with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions. I understand
> >that a very small bike shop might have a difficult time providing space,
> >but I'm struck by the observation that even the bigger ones (at least
> >around here) don't seem to make even a token effort.
>
> >Most retailers accept that they have to provide (directly or otherwise)
> >motor vehicle parking or lose business. That isn't free, either. Valet
> >parking for bikes makes sense for a restaurant (given large enough
> >clientele), after all, it's not a rare service for cars. I'm not
> >suggesting the same for bike shops, but why do they seem surprised when
> >a customer shows up by bike?
>
> I agree with that point about a bike shop being surprised when someone
> show up on a bike. The shops around here sometimes have a rack
> outside. But it is LOADED with new/used bikes. Not much of an option
> if you want to lock yours up. One bad thing about leaving it unlocked
> is, I have found that people think that MY bike is for sale and I have
> found some people attempting to sit on it. ((It's a Trike)) But I
> try not to get TOO irritated at this.

ISTM a trike would have an advantage of a lesser lock requirement.
People aren't likely to pick it up and run with it, so keeping one
wheel from rotating might be all that's needed in most instances.

- Frank Krygowski

[Harry Brogan]

>
>ISTM a trike would have an advantage of a lesser lock requirement.
>People aren't likely to pick it up and run with it, so keeping one
>wheel from rotating might be all that's needed in most instances.
>
>- Frank Krygowski



You are correct. I often only lock the rear wheel and part of the
frame. My Tadpole has the types of hubs on the front wheels that they
wouldn't be of much use to anyone anyway. Except another tadpole
rider. And those in THIS town are VERY few and far between.

When I do lock it up I do try and get it attached to something solid
though. But then if someone wants something bad enough then no amount
of protection is going to help.

[Clive George]

"Marz" <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3996292a-20d8-4cc8-a2e5-2a0dda425b69@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 11, 9:55 am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Peter Cole" <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:U62dnayM7OAr_S3anZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>
>> > Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
>> > saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here".
>> > The
>> > former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.
>>
>> When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
>> course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?
>
>No, but all car dealers provide parking for your car, the same can't
>be said for bike shops. Of the four local bike shops I go to get
>stuff, only one provides a stand outside. The others have to put up
>with me bringing my bike into the store.

Why not just lean the bike against the shop? That's what I've always done.
Try somewhere like Ben Haywards in Cambridge - they can't provide their own
bike parking outside the shop, since there's no space, and there's
definitely no space in the shop either. Leaning the bikes against the shop
works perfectly.

cheers,
clive

[Marz]

On Feb 11, 12:16*pm, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "Marz" <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3996292a-20d8-4cc8-a2e5-2a0dda425b69@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Feb 11, 9:55 am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >> "Peter Cole" <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:U62dnayM7OAr_S3anZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> >> > Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
> >> > saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here".
> >> > The
> >> > former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.
>
> >> When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
> >> course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?
>
> >No, but all car dealers provide parking for your car, the same can't
> >be said for bike shops. Of the four local bike shops I go to get
> >stuff, only one provides a stand outside. The others have to put up
> >with me bringing my bike into the store.
>
> Why not just lean the bike against the shop? That's what I've always done.
> Try somewhere like Ben Haywards in Cambridge - they can't provide their own
> bike parking outside the shop, since there's no space, and there's
> definitely no space in the shop either. Leaning the bikes against the shop
> works perfectly.
>
> cheers,
> clive- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Leaning your bike against the shop is a great way to have it stolen!
No thanks.

[Clive George]

"Peter Cole" <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mYmdnc3VIs7cNC3anZ2dnUVZ_tTinZ2d@comcast.com. ..

>>> Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
>>> around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
>>> with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions.
>>
>> Um, if you're running errands on a bike, you'll want a lock. The people
>> who do utility cycling understand this.
>
> I do utility cycling and I find a lock a nuisance.

Maybe. A necessary one though, depending on where you are. If you don't need
one for the other shops, you won't need one for the bike shop, and vice
versa.

I wouldn't take my bike into the bookshop, the record shop, the shoe shop,
etc, etc - I'd treat the bike shop the same way. Not sure why you feel
differently.

clive

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 11, 3:18*pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> Luckily, local bike shop owners can do as they please about providing
> >> indoor parking.
> Peter Cole wrote:
> > I don't know why that's "lucky".
> > carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> Maybe this thread will lead to a wave of "free indoor
> >> parking" signs. (Valet parking seems too much to hope for.)
> Peter Cole wrote:
> > There is a local barbecue restaurant that offers valet parking:
> > "In 1996, Redbones introduced first-in-the-nation Bicycle Valet parking
> > to Davis Square. The year round service provides free parking for bikes,
> > in a secured space, to riders coming to Davis Square regardless of their
> > destination.
> > Bike Valet Hours
> > Sun: 1-10 / Mon-Fri: 6 - Midnight
> > Saturday: 1 - Midnight "
> > carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> But customers should ponder the costs in shop space, cleaning, and
> >> convenience before finding new nits to pick with shops that are rarely
> >> choking on excess cash flow. Many local bike shops would be hard
> >> pressed to find a separate area for a dozen customers to park their
> >> bikes indoors--they want to use that space to sell stuff to stay in
> >> business.
> > Then they should be up front about it. Either they should put up a sign
> > saying "Please leave bikes outside" or one saying "Park bikes here". The
> > former sort of strikes me like a "no pets" sign in a vet's office.
> >> There's also the sad fact that someone would eventually steal a parked
> >> bike while the customer was distracted--and guess who would be held
> >> responsible by the customer, no matter how many not-responsible signs
> >> were plastered on the walls?
> > Bike shops are loaded with new bikes (among other things). I'd take my
> > chances.
> >> In any case, posters demanding indoor bicycle parking at local bike
> >> shops would be wise to come up with a good answer to the shop's offer
> >> to sell them a good bicycle lock.
> > Good bicycle locks are not things that people typically like to ride
> > around with. Realistically, using a bike to run errands can be fraught
> > with "where to park it" and "should I lock it" questions. I understand
> > that a very small bike shop might have a difficult time providing space,
> > but I'm struck by the observation that even the bigger ones (at least
> > around here) don't seem to make even a token effort.
> > Most retailers accept that they have to provide (directly or otherwise)
> > motor vehicle parking or lose business. That isn't free, either. Valet
> > parking for bikes makes sense for a restaurant (given large enough
> > clientele), after all, it's not a rare service for cars. I'm not
> > suggesting the same for bike shops, but why do they seem surprised when
> > a customer shows up by bike?
>
> We have to encourage customers to bring their bikes in the door. Yes,
> it's a small space but a couple more bikes won't kill anyone and this
> neighborhood is unsafe to park a bike. I'm amazed how many people try to
> have a conversation while craning a peek out the window.
>
> "Bring it in already!"
> "You mean I can bring my bike _inside_??".
>
> Riders seem to expect a hassle - why, I can't say. Are bike shops that
> clueless one can't just ride in?? I bring mine into bank, Post Office,
> City/State offices* etc as I don't own a lock.
>
> *except the bunker types with metal detector barriers of course
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's me @ my LBS, only they frown upon you bringing the bike in
unless it needs repairs. The result is that I never take an eye off
of the bike, and get out as soon as possible. I get myself in trouble
with impulse buys 80% of the time I drive to the shop, and 0% of the
time I ride to the shop.

I almost never have a lock with me, and if I do it's a cheap-o. I
don't even own a proper U-lock.

[Clive George]

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:13r1bk9q64fao86@corp.supernews.com...
> Clive George wrote:
>> When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
>> course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?
>
> I was at a big Chevy dealership to get parts for a girlfriend's car and
> parked a very clean flashy and fast '65 Chevy convertible in their lot
> right at the door.
>
> "Parts Department?"
> "Other side of the building. And can you move your car? We don't like old
> cars near the showroom"
>
> Left and never went back.

The clutch cable snapped on our car - neither clean, flashy nor fast :-).
Wife nursed it to the dealer, and parked it in prime position at the front
next to the window. It was then their problem :-)

(they did a good job - fixed price for the relacement, and didn't moan
despite it taking 4 or 5 times longer than book)

cheers,
clive

[DanKMTB@gmail.com]

On Feb 11, 3:22*pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Clive George wrote:
> > When you drive to the local car dealer, do you park in the showroom? Of
> > course not. So why do you expect to do the equivalent at a bike shop?
>
> I was at a big Chevy dealership to get parts for a girlfriend's car and
> parked a very clean flashy and fast '65 Chevy convertible in their lot
> right at the door.
>
> "Parts Department?"
> "Other side of the building. And can you move your car? We don't like
> old cars near the showroom"
>
> Left and never went back.
>
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That's amazing. I've been leaving my vehicles* in front of showrooms
while I go to parts for years, and have never had something like that
said to me. If I did I belive I'd just tell the salesperson "No,
thanks, it's fine right where it is" and go about my business. I
can't fathom the management allowing some salesman to throw you and
your business out over it.

* Including a primer black rattle canned Camaro with Felix smoking a
hand-rolled cigar mural on the hood and more recently, my beaten-like-
it-wronged-me Ranger with the "customized by offroading" paint scheme.

[Clive George]

"Marz" <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f60302ed-2a14-414f-8601-5bbb28a6eb71@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

>> Why not just lean the bike against the shop? That's what I've always
>> done.
>> Try somewhere like Ben Haywards in Cambridge - they can't provide their
>> own
>> bike parking outside the shop, since there's no space, and there's
>> definitely no space in the shop either. Leaning the bikes against the
>> shop
>> works perfectly.
>
>Leaning your bike against the shop is a great way to have it stolen!
>No thanks.

Do you know Cambridge at all? It's one of the worst places for bike theft
around. Yet I managed leaning my bike against that window for years. A quick
lock to immobilise it worked fine. Obviously if I were leaving it anywhere
for a long time, it gets the proper lock to something solid treatment, but
for a quick visit, there's no real need.

cheers,
clive

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:42:57 -0000, "Clive George"
<clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>"Marz" <marzjennings@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:f60302ed-2a14-414f-8601-5bbb28a6eb71@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>> Why not just lean the bike against the shop? That's what I've always
>>> done.
>>> Try somewhere like Ben Haywards in Cambridge - they can't provide their
>>> own
>>> bike parking outside the shop, since there's no space, and there's
>>> definitely no space in the shop either. Leaning the bikes against the
>>> shop
>>> works perfectly.
>>
>>Leaning your bike against the shop is a great way to have it stolen!
>>No thanks.
>
>Do you know Cambridge at all? It's one of the worst places for bike theft
>around. Yet I managed leaning my bike against that window for years. A quick
>lock to immobilise it worked fine. Obviously if I were leaving it anywhere
>for a long time, it gets the proper lock to something solid treatment, but
>for a quick visit, there's no real need.
>
>cheers,
>clive

Dear Clive,

Yeah, sure, right . . .