3-speed hub knitting group in NYC?

[Scott Gordo]

I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).

Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?

Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
it.

Thanks.

PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
his website will live forever.

[landotter]

On Feb 7, 11:13 am, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).

I've cleaned them out before with both WD40 and mineral spirits,
shifting and working the gunk out, which will drip messily out the
side of the hub as you feed solvent into the oil hole. Then I let the
solvent evaporate a day or so, then lube with motor oil. Never had to
take one apart, though.

[A Muzi]

Scott Gordo wrote:
> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>
> Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
> http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
> I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
> I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
> two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
> similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
> an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>
> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
> knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
> sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
> it.
> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> his website will live forever.

Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean, rebuild)
all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.

Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play at
the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may not be
'gummed up' at all.

*Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on floor,
complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance. You'll
likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Scott Gordo writes:

> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).

> Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at

http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html,

> but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and
> then forget about it if I work on it solo. I've also found that
> when it comes to this stuff two idiots are better than one idiot.
> Anyone in NYC have a somewhat similar hub (like an AW), curiosity,
> some basic wrenching knowledge, an afternoon, and like beer and/or
> coffee?

I would like to know why you want to take it apart. Is it not working
correctly, and if so, what are the symptoms? These hubs, although
poorly designed for high gear use, are excellent for dirt exclusion,
so the main reason to disassemble it to replace worn parts.

The most common failure are wear notches in the "driver cross" known
in SA language as the clutch. If it has wear grooves on its driving
faces, it can only lead to dropping out of top gear into free-wheeling
forward.

> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
> knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
> sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
> it.

SA three-speed housings are not oil tight. That is, they will not
retain any oil other than a film on surfaces of gears, pawls, planet
carrier and gears. If you flood it with oil, you'll only get a hub
with oil running down that= lower spokes.

> Thanks.

> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> his website will live forever.

Forever is a long time. Let's just hope it stays a few years.

Jobst Brandt

[Jasper Janssen]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:13:10 -0800 (PST), Scott Gordo
<blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
>I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
>I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
>two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
>similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
>an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?

The BWs I've done, the only difficult thing was getting the outer cap off
initially. Cleaning and reassembling the rest was pretty much easy as
cake.

Jasper

[landotter]

On Feb 7, 11:53 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 11:13 am, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> > the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> > become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>
> I've cleaned them out before with both WD40 and mineral spirits,
> shifting and working the gunk out, which will drip messily out the
> side of the hub as you feed solvent into the oil hole. Then I let the
> solvent evaporate a day or so, then lube with motor oil. Never had to
> take one apart, though.

To be even more conservative, you could also start with simply
flushing and working the hub with a light viscosity 5-10W motor oil,
which contains additives that'll clean without being too volatile.

If you can't resist taking the hub apart, just document each step with
a clear photograph, assembly is the reverse of disassembly. ;-)

[Scott Gordo]

On Feb 7, 2:17*pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Scott Gordo wrote:
> > I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> > the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> > become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>
> > Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
> >http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
> > I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
> > I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
> > two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
> > similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
> > an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>
> > Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
> > knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
> > sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
> > it.
> > PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> > his website will live forever.
>
> Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean, rebuild)
> all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.
>
> Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play at
> the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may not be
> 'gummed up' at all.
>
> *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on floor,
> complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance. *You'll
> likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
> reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.
>
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any recommendations?
Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.

/s

[A Muzi]

>> Scott Gordo wrote:
>>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
>>> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
>>> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>>> Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>>> http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
>>> I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
>>> I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
>>> two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
>>> similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
>>> an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>>> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
>>> knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
>>> sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
>>> it.
>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
>>> his website will live forever.

> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean, rebuild)
>> all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.
>> Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play at
>> the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may not be
>> 'gummed up' at all.
>> *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on floor,
>> complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance. You'll
>> likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
>> reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.

Scott Gordo wrote:
> By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any recommendations?
> Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.

I don't think it is critical but Sturmey Archer Oil is the sort of oil
one would use in a lathe headstock. There's no great temperature or rpm
demand in an AW.

In the olden days we advised 'chain oil'. The term is meaningless today
as it now encompasses wax, teflon, aerosols, hemp squeezin's, probably
organic whale blubber and who knows what. Oil. Just dead-dinosaur oil.

We use a hypoid 90 gear lube. It's fine. Anything lighter in the series
would also be fine. Again, no high rpm or temperatures in there.

As Jobst notes, it's a simple slosh-lubricated system with a lot of seal
bleed. Sturmey says 'a drop per fortnight in daily use', i.e., a little
and frequently. Anything over 2 tablespoons runs out on your rim anyway.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[landotter]

On Feb 7, 2:11 pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2:17 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Scott Gordo wrote:
> > > I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> > > the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> > > become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>
> > > Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
> > >http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
> > > I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
> > > I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
> > > two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
> > > similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
> > > an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>
> > > Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
> > > knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
> > > sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
> > > it.
> > > PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> > > his website will live forever.
>
> > Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean, rebuild)
> > all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.
>
> > Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play at
> > the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may not be
> > 'gummed up' at all.
>
> > *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on floor,
> > complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance. You'll
> > likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
> > reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.
>
> > --
> > Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any recommendations?
> Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.
>
> /s

Whatever ya got in your car trunk will work. ;-) The last hub I lubed
got Castrol GTX 5W30 and purred like a kitten. They're none too fussy.
The only trick is finding a good little dropper to get the oil in the
hole. I've used anything from a hair clipper oiler to an ear cleaning
bulb in a pinch. Don't forget that oil *is* gonna seep out the non-
drive side if you put a good amount in.

[A Muzi]

>> Scott Gordo wrote:
>>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
>>> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
>>> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>>> Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>>> http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
>>> I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
>>> I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
>>> two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
>>> similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
>>> an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>>> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
>>> knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
>>> sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
>>> it.
>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
>>> his website will live forever.

> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean, rebuild)
>> all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.
>> Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play at
>> the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may not be
>> 'gummed up' at all.
>> *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on floor,
>> complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance. You'll
>> likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
>> reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.

Scott Gordo wrote:
> By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any recommendations?
> Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.

I don't think it is critical but Sturmey Archer Oil is the sort of oil
one would use in a lathe headstock. There's no great temperature or rpm
demand in an AW.

In the olden days we advised 'chain oil'. The term is meaningless today
as it now encompasses wax, teflon, aerosols, hemp squeezin's, probably
organic whale blubber and who knows what. Oil. Just dead-dinosaur oil.

We use a hypoid 90 gear lube. It's fine. Anything lighter in the series
would also be fine. Again, no high rpm or temperatures in there.

As Jobst notes, it's a simple slosh-lubricated system with a lot of seal
bleed. Sturmey says 'a drop per fortnight in daily use', i.e., a little
and frequently. Anything over 2 tablespoons runs out on your rim anyway.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Scott Gordo]

On Feb 7, 3:24*pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2:11 pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 2:17 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> > > Scott Gordo wrote:
> > > > I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> > > > the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> > > > become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>
> > > > Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
> > > >http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
> > > > I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
> > > > I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
> > > > two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
> > > > similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
> > > > an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>
> > > > Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
> > > > knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
> > > > sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
> > > > it.
> > > > PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> > > > his website will live forever.
>
> > > Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean, rebuild)
> > > all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.
>
> > > Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play at
> > > the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may not be
> > > 'gummed up' at all.
>
> > > *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on floor,
> > > complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance. *You'll
> > > likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
> > > reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.
>
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any recommendations?
> > Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.
>
> > /s
>
> Whatever ya got in your car trunk will work. ;-) The last hub I lubed
> got Castrol GTX 5W30 and purred like a kitten. They're none too fussy.
> The only trick is finding a good little dropper to get the oil in the
> hole. I've used anything from a hair clipper oiler to an ear cleaning
> bulb in a pinch. Don't forget that oil *is* gonna seep out the non-
> drive side if you put a good amount in.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks all. I figured it would be a lot fussier. I'll give it a shot,
along with Andy's suggestions to check the left side bearing
adjustment and chain.

/s

[Tim McNamara]

In article <47ab944a$0$36393$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Scott Gordo writes:
>
> > PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> > his website will live forever.
>
> Forever is a long time. Let's just hope it stays a few years.

I am reminded that there may be some irony in that Sheldon saved other
Web sites from extinction- Ken Kifer's and Damon Rinard's, among others.
He also tried to save the original fixedgearfever.com site, but Dürer
was not responsive about that. It may be at some point that someone
will need to save Sheldon's site as well as the others he rescued.

I am still very sad when I think about it. It feels like a death in the
family.

[Ben C]

On 2008-02-07, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
[...]
>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
>> his website will live forever.
>
> Forever is a long time. Let's just hope it stays a few years.

It will be around much longer than that, at least for the lifetime of
the world wide web.

There are thousands of people who would be more than happy to host the
site, many of whom have already taken copies of it just in case.

Eventually it will become out-of-date but Captain Zapf-Fogel will still
mine its archives for stories to entertain readers about life in the
days before hover-bikes.

[Scott Gordo]

On Feb 7, 6:29*pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Scott Gordo writes:
> > I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> > the winter. *Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> > become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
> > Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>
> *http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html,
>
> > but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and
> > then forget about it if I work on it solo. *I've also found that
> > when it comes to this stuff two idiots are better than one idiot.
> > Anyone in NYC have a somewhat similar hub (like an AW), curiosity,
> > some basic wrenching knowledge, an afternoon, and like beer and/or
> > coffee?
>
> I would like to know why you want to take it apart. *Is it not working
> correctly, and if so, what are the symptoms? *These hubs, although
> poorly designed for high gear use, are excellent for dirt exclusion,
> so the main reason to disassemble it to replace worn parts.
>
> The most common failure are wear notches in the "driver cross" known
> in SA language as the clutch. *If it has wear grooves on its driving
> faces, it can only lead to dropping out of top gear into free-wheeling
> forward.
>
> > Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
> > knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
> > sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
> > it.
>
> SA three-speed housings are not oil tight. *That is, they will not
> retain any oil other than a film on surfaces of gears, pawls, planet
> carrier and gears. *If you flood it with oil, you'll only get a hub
> with oil running down that= lower spokes.
>
> > Thanks.
> > PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> > his website will live forever.
>
> Forever is a long time. *Let's just hope it stays a few years.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Thanks. As Andy also pointed out, my figuring that it was 'sticky'
internally could very well me a mental misconstruction. Symtoms: I'm
not getting the familiar Sturmey clicking sound, shifting does not
work while pedalling (light or loaded), and sometimes a quarter- or
half-rotation "freewheeling forwards" occurs before the pawl catches.
In my mind, these symptoms are analagous to a freewheel where the
pawls are locked for some reason, either from corrosion, built up
gunk, or both.

I wasn't aware that oil drains freely from the SA system. Was this
designed into the hub as a feature? With all the modern systems built
around keeping lubricants in, it plain would not have occurred to me
that you'd build a bicycle hub to drain off all but what's necessary.
Sorry if that's obvious to everyone else, for me it's a palm-to-
forehead moment. I learned something today!

Half of the reason I wanted to dismantle the hub is just plain
curiosity, see how the 'magic' happens, and see if there's anything
glaringly worn, gummed up, or ?. I also read that slippage could be
quickly fixed by "swap(ing) the position of the low gear and high gear
pawls".
(Apologies for attributing the article to Sheldon when Brian Hayes is
credited with having written it.) I figured that working with someone
else we could compare the inner workings for wear or the unknown, keep
me from getting distracted by something else and walking away from it,
and hopefully keep dumb rookie mistakes to a minimum.

With all that said, before I crack the hub open, I'll:
1. check the chain tension (though I'm pretty sure there's a good 2
inches of play there),
2. check for play in the hub,
2. dump some oil in there this weekend, take it for a slow ride for a
while with plenty of gear changing (while laying off the rear brake),
and see what happens.

As usual, much appreciated.

Scott

[Jasper Janssen]

On 07 Feb 2008 23:29:14 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>I would like to know why you want to take it apart. Is it not working
>correctly, and if so, what are the symptoms? These hubs, although
>poorly designed for high gear use, are excellent for dirt exclusion,
>so the main reason to disassemble it to replace worn parts.
>
>The most common failure are wear notches in the "driver cross" known
>in SA language as the clutch. If it has wear grooves on its driving
>faces, it can only lead to dropping out of top gear into free-wheeling
>forward.

The most common failure I've had personally is the threading between the
little beam and the indicator stick, after a decade or two they sometimes
go bad.

Jasper

[Scott Gordo]

On Feb 7, 6:29*pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Scott Gordo writes:
> > I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
> > the winter. *Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> > become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
> > Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>
> *http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html,
>
> > but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and
> > then forget about it if I work on it solo. *I've also found that
> > when it comes to this stuff two idiots are better than one idiot.
> > Anyone in NYC have a somewhat similar hub (like an AW), curiosity,
> > some basic wrenching knowledge, an afternoon, and like beer and/or
> > coffee?
>
> I would like to know why you want to take it apart. *Is it not working
> correctly, and if so, what are the symptoms? *These hubs, although
> poorly designed for high gear use, are excellent for dirt exclusion,
> so the main reason to disassemble it to replace worn parts.
>
> The most common failure are wear notches in the "driver cross" known
> in SA language as the clutch. *If it has wear grooves on its driving
> faces, it can only lead to dropping out of top gear into free-wheeling
> forward.
>
> > Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
> > knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
> > sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
> > it.
>
> SA three-speed housings are not oil tight. *That is, they will not
> retain any oil other than a film on surfaces of gears, pawls, planet
> carrier and gears. *If you flood it with oil, you'll only get a hub
> with oil running down that= lower spokes.
>
> > Thanks.
> > PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
> > his website will live forever.
>
> Forever is a long time. *Let's just hope it stays a few years.
>
> Jobst Brandt

> The most common failure are wear notches in the "driver cross" known
> in SA language as the clutch. If it has wear grooves on its driving
> faces, it can only lead to dropping out of top gear into free-wheeling
> forward.

Report:

Chain tension was fine, and no significant play in bearings/cones
detected. I added oil through the port and rode for a while. Overall
shifting was smoother, but I am indeed running into issues in the top
gear which slips irregularly. (This only happens in 3rd.) I'll try and
get a couple more rides in, but signs are pointing towards a bit of
surgery.

If the driver cross is worn, any recommendations on how to fix? File?
Grinder? Replacement?

I'm also surprised by the big gearing of the bike overall. It's hard
for me to imagine getting this little rod-braked Rudge up to the kind
of speed where gear 3 will spin quickly enough to be efficient.

[Dan Burkhart]

A Muzi Wrote:
> >> Scott Gordo wrote:
> >>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out
> over
> >>> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
> >>> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
> >>> Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
> >>> http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty
> sure
> >>> I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it
> if
> >>> I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this
> stuff
> >>> two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a
> somewhat
> >>> similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching
> knowledge,
> >>> an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
> >>> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them
> who
> >>> knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles,
> let
> >>> sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to
> hear
> >>> it.
> >>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had",
> as
> >>> his website will live forever.
>
> > A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean,
> rebuild)
> >> all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.
> >> Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play
> at
> >> the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may
> not be
> >> 'gummed up' at all.
> >> *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on
> floor,
> >> complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance.
> You'll
> >> likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
> >> reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.
>
> Scott Gordo wrote:
> > By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any recommendations?
> > Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.
>
> I don't think it is critical but Sturmey Archer Oil is the sort of oil
> one would use in a lathe headstock. There's no great temperature or
> rpm
> demand in an AW.
>
> In the olden days we advised 'chain oil'. The term is meaningless
> today
> as it now encompasses wax, teflon, aerosols, hemp squeezin's, probably
> organic whale blubber and who knows what. Oil. Just dead-dinosaur
> oil.
>
> We use a hypoid 90 gear lube. It's fine. Anything lighter in the
> series
> would also be fine. Again, no high rpm or temperatures in there.
>
> As Jobst notes, it's a simple slosh-lubricated system with a lot of
> seal
> bleed. Sturmey says 'a drop per fortnight in daily use', i.e., a
> little
> and frequently. Anything over 2 tablespoons runs out on your rim
> anyway.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Hypoid gear lube is classed as EP or extreme pressure. It's formulated
to stay in place between gear teeth under , well, extreme pressure.
Great for heavy truck axles. Don't know if it offers any benefit or
detriment for such a light duty application.
Truck component manufacturers warn against using it in transmissions.
Dan


--
Dan Burkhart

[landotter]

On Feb 7, 10:05 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> I am still very sad when I think about it. It feels like a death in the
> family.

It *is* a death in the family, the cycling family. Took a day to sink
in here before I sobbed my eyes out. I never met Sheldon, but he
guided my hands through his words so many times that we might as well
have been kin.

[Andrew Price]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:05:29 -0600, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

[---]

[Sheldon]

>I am still very sad when I think about it. It feels like a death in the
>family.

I think it is; I've had the same thought recurrently over the past few
days.

[Luke]

In article <timmcn-3F8056.22052407022008@news.iphouse.com>, Tim
McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> I am still very sad when I think about it. It feels like a death in the
> family.

I had comprehended the fact of Sheldon's death intellectually but it
took a day or two before it resonated emotionally.


I was commuting (by bike) following a snow storm. It was dawn, the
streets were quiet, and the trees and houses, heavily laden with snow,
were lovely. I don't know why but Sheldon came to mind as I delighted
in the occasion. How sad it was to realize he'd never again savor such
a charming moment.

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 02:17:35 -0600, Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:

>On 2008-02-07, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>[...]
>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
>>> his website will live forever.
>>
>> Forever is a long time. Let's just hope it stays a few years.
>
>It will be around much longer than that, at least for the lifetime of
>the world wide web.
>
>There are thousands of people who would be more than happy to host the
>site, many of whom have already taken copies of it just in case.
>
>Eventually it will become out-of-date but Captain Zapf-Fogel will still
>mine its archives for stories to entertain readers about life in the
>days before hover-bikes.

Dera Ben,

Please, Captain Zapp Brannigan rides a stallion named Felicity on a
hover-disc as he conquers the pacifists of the Gandhi Nebula.

Sort of like this:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=HAptAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=230722

Cheers,

Kif Kroker

[Jasper Janssen]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 02:17:35 -0600, Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:

>It will be around much longer than that, at least for the lifetime of
>the world wide web.
>
>There are thousands of people who would be more than happy to host the
>site, many of whom have already taken copies of it just in case.

Not to mention archive.org.

Jasper

[A Muzi]

>>>> Scott Gordo wrote:
>>>>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out
>> over
>>>>> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
>>>>> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>>>>> Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>>>>> http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty
>> sure
>>>>> I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it
>> if
>>>>> I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this
>> stuff
>>>>> two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a
>> somewhat
>>>>> similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching
>> knowledge,
>>>>> an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>>>>> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them
>> who
>>>>> knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles,
>> let
>>>>> sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to
>> hear
>>>>> it.
>>>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had",
>> as
>>>>> his website will live forever.

>>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean,
>> rebuild)
>>>> all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride it.
>>>> Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace of play
>> at
>>>> the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight either. It may
>> not be
>>>> 'gummed up' at all.
>>>> *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on
>> floor,
>>>> complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first dance.
>> You'll
>>>> likely forget small details if you don't lay out parts in order and
>>>> reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.

>> Scott Gordo wrote:
>>> By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any recommendations?
>>> Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.

> A Muzi Wrote:
>> I don't think it is critical but Sturmey Archer Oil is the sort of oil
>> one would use in a lathe headstock. There's no great temperature or
>> rpm
>> demand in an AW.
>> In the olden days we advised 'chain oil'. The term is meaningless
>> today
>> as it now encompasses wax, teflon, aerosols, hemp squeezin's, probably
>> organic whale blubber and who knows what. Oil. Just dead-dinosaur
>> oil.
>> We use a hypoid 90 gear lube. It's fine. Anything lighter in the
>> series
>> would also be fine. Again, no high rpm or temperatures in there.
>> As Jobst notes, it's a simple slosh-lubricated system with a lot of
>> seal
>> bleed. Sturmey says 'a drop per fortnight in daily use', i.e., a
>> little
>> and frequently. Anything over 2 tablespoons runs out on your rim
>> anyway.

Dan Burkhart wrote:
> Hypoid gear lube is classed as EP or extreme pressure. It's formulated
> to stay in place between gear teeth under , well, extreme pressure.
> Great for heavy truck axles. Don't know if it offers any benefit or
> detriment for such a light duty application.
> Truck component manufacturers warn against using it in transmissions.

Yes, thats' right. But we have a drum of it and it works well. As I
noted, anything lighter in the series would be just fine.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Dan Burkhart writes:

>>>>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out
>>>>> over the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd
>>>>> rather become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few
>>>>> shekels). Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at:

http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html

>>>>> but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the thing half dismantled
>>>>> and then forget about it if I work on it solo. I've also found
>>>>> that when it comes to this stuff two idiots are better than one
>>>>> idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat similar hub (like an AW),
>>>>> curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge, an afternoon, and
>>>>> like beer and/or coffee? Also, if there's any old hands with a
>>>>> lot of experience with them who knows a trick (eg: open oil
>>>>> port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let sit for two weeks, add
>>>>> 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear it.

>>>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
>>>>> his website will live forever.

>>>> Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean,
>>>> rebuild) all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride
>>>> it. Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace
>>>> of play at the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight
>>>> either. It may not be 'gummed up' at all.

>>>> *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on
>>>> floor, complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first
>>>> dance. You'll likely forget small details if you don't lay out
>>>> parts in order and reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.

>>> By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any
>>> recommendations? Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.

>> I don't think it is critical but Sturmey Archer Oil is the sort of
>> oil one would use in a lathe headstock. There's no great
>> temperature or rpm demand in an AW.

>> In the olden days we advised 'chain oil'. The term is meaningless
>> today as it now encompasses wax, Teflon, aerosols, hemp squeezin's,
>> probably organic whale blubber and who knows what. Oil. Just
>> dead-dinosaur oil.

>> We use a hypoid 90 gear lube. It's fine. Anything lighter in the
>> series would also be fine. Again, no high rpm or temperatures in
>> there.

>> As Jobst notes, it's a simple slosh-lubricated system with a lot of
>> seal bleed. Sturmey says 'a drop per fortnight in daily use', i.e.,
>> a little and frequently. Anything over 2 tablespoons runs out on
>> your rim anyway.

> Hypoid gear lube is classed as EP or extreme pressure. It's
> formulated to stay in place between gear teeth under , well, extreme
> pressure. Great for heavy truck axles. Don't know if it offers any
> benefit or detriment for such a light duty application. Truck
> component manufacturers warn against using it in transmissions.

A Hypoid gear is used in differential rear axle drives where the input
shaft lies off center (in order to allow a low floor in a passenger
car) of the ring gear. It is half way between an ordinary "on-axis"
bevel gear and a tangential worm drive on the ring gear. That means
it has high sliding motion similar to a worm drive, and that is what
is different about hypoid gear oil. It's not the pressure, but rather
the sliding action of the interface of ring and pinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoid
http://gemini.tntech.edu/~slc3675/me361/lecture/grnts4.html

Jobst Brandt

[A Muzi]

>> Scott Gordo writes:
>>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out over
>>> the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd rather
>>> become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few shekels).
>>> Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html,
>>> but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and
>>> then forget about it if I work on it solo. I've also found that
>>> when it comes to this stuff two idiots are better than one idiot.
>>> Anyone in NYC have a somewhat similar hub (like an AW), curiosity,
>>> some basic wrenching knowledge, an afternoon, and like beer and/or
>>> coffee?

> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> I would like to know why you want to take it apart. Is it not working
>> correctly, and if so, what are the symptoms? These hubs, although
>> poorly designed for high gear use, are excellent for dirt exclusion,
>> so the main reason to disassemble it to replace worn parts.
>>
>> The most common failure are wear notches in the "driver cross" known
>> in SA language as the clutch. If it has wear grooves on its driving
>> faces, it can only lead to dropping out of top gear into free-wheeling
>> forward.

>>> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them who
>>> knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let
>>> sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear
>>> it.

>> SA three-speed housings are not oil tight. That is, they will not
>> retain any oil other than a film on surfaces of gears, pawls, planet
>> carrier and gears. If you flood it with oil, you'll only get a hub
>> with oil running down that= lower spokes.

>>> Thanks.
>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
>>> his website will live forever.
>> Forever is a long time. Let's just hope it stays a few years.

Scott Gordo wrote:
> Thanks. As Andy also pointed out, my figuring that it was 'sticky'
> internally could very well me a mental misconstruction. Symtoms: I'm
> not getting the familiar Sturmey clicking sound, shifting does not
> work while pedalling (light or loaded), and sometimes a quarter- or
> half-rotation "freewheeling forwards" occurs before the pawl catches.
> In my mind, these symptoms are analagous to a freewheel where the
> pawls are locked for some reason, either from corrosion, built up
> gunk, or both.
>
> I wasn't aware that oil drains freely from the SA system. Was this
> designed into the hub as a feature? With all the modern systems built
> around keeping lubricants in, it plain would not have occurred to me
> that you'd build a bicycle hub to drain off all but what's necessary.
> Sorry if that's obvious to everyone else, for me it's a palm-to-
> forehead moment. I learned something today!
>
> Half of the reason I wanted to dismantle the hub is just plain
> curiosity, see how the 'magic' happens, and see if there's anything
> glaringly worn, gummed up, or ?. I also read that slippage could be
> quickly fixed by "swap(ing) the position of the low gear and high gear
> pawls".
> (Apologies for attributing the article to Sheldon when Brian Hayes is
> credited with having written it.) I figured that working with someone
> else we could compare the inner workings for wear or the unknown, keep
> me from getting distracted by something else and walking away from it,
> and hopefully keep dumb rookie mistakes to a minimum.
>
> With all that said, before I crack the hub open, I'll:
> 1. check the chain tension (though I'm pretty sure there's a good 2
> inches of play there),
> 2. check for play in the hub,
> 2. dump some oil in there this weekend, take it for a slow ride for a
> while with plenty of gear changing (while laying off the rear brake),
> and see what happens.

The pawls are necessarily of a different shape at each end (low gear
pawls are disengaged from the inside to drive the high gear)

Older models (pre-1965?) had reversible high gear pawls; flip over when
worn. This rarely used 'feature' was dropped.

Do oil it when you can, they are seldom wrecked but often neglected;
usually respond to lubrication. It's been roughly a hundred years with
very few changes so I conclude no, it not perfect but, yes, it's
perfectly adequate to most riders' needs and they sure are durable.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Scott Gordo writes:

>>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out
>>> over the winter. Â*Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd
>>> rather become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few
>>> shekels). Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at:

Â*http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html,

>>> but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and
>>> then forget about it if I work on it solo. Â*I've also found that
>>> when it comes to this stuff two idiots are better than one idiot.
>>> Anyone in NYC have a somewhat similar hub (like an AW), curiosity,
>>> some basic wrenching knowledge, an afternoon, and like beer and/or
>>> coffee?

>> I would like to know why you want to take it apart. Â*Is it not
>> working correctly, and if so, what are the symptoms? Â*These hubs,
>> although poorly designed for high gear use, are excellent for dirt
>> exclusion, so the main reason to disassemble it to replace worn
>> parts.

>> The most common failure are wear notches in the "driver cross"
>> known in SA language as the clutch. Â*If it has wear grooves on its
>> driving faces, it can only lead to dropping out of top gear into
>> free-wheeling forward.

>>> Also, if there's any old hands with a lot of experience with them
>>> who knows a trick (eg: open oil port, pour in acetone, ride 2
>>> miles, let sit for two weeks, add 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd
>>> love to hear it.

>> SA three-speed housings are not oil tight. Â*That is, they will not
>> retain any oil other than a film on surfaces of gears, pawls,
>> planet carrier and gears. Â*If you flood it with oil, you'll only
>> get a hub with oil running down that= lower spokes.

>>> Thanks.
>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had", as
>>> his website will live forever.

>> Forever is a long time. Â*Let's just hope it stays a few years.

> Thanks. As Andy also pointed out, my figuring that it was 'sticky'
> internally could very well me a mental misconstruction. Symptoms:
> I'm not getting the familiar Sturmey clicking sound, shifting does
> not work while pedaling (light or loaded), and sometimes a quarter-
> or half-rotation "freewheeling forward" occurs before the pawl
> catches. In my mind, these symptoms are analogous to a freewheel
> where the pawls are locked for some reason, either from corrosion,
> built up gunk, or both.

....or held from freely articulation because they are retained in the
withdrawn position by viscous oil.

> I wasn't aware that oil drains freely from the SA system. Was this
> designed into the hub as a feature? With all the modern systems
> built around keeping lubricants in, it plain would not have occurred
> to me that you'd build a bicycle hub to drain off all but what's
> necessary. Sorry if that's obvious to everyone else, for me it's a
> palm-to-forehead moment. I learned something today!

A film of oil on the parts on assembly is sufficient lubrication.
Most gear boxes that hold a volume of oil, do so for cooling of the
gears. There is no significant heat generated in an SA hub.

> Half of the reason I wanted to dismantle the hub is just plain
> curiosity, see how the 'magic' happens, and see if there's anything
> glaringly worn, gummed up, or ?. I also read that slippage could be
> quickly fixed by "swap(ing) the position of the low gear and high
> gear pawls".

That is incorrect!

> (Apologies for attributing the article to Sheldon when Brian Hayes
> is credited with having written it.) I figured that working with
> someone else we could compare the inner workings for wear or the
> unknown, keep me from getting distracted by something else and
> walking away from it, and hopefully keep dumb rookie mistakes to a
> minimum.

> With all that said, before I crack the hub open, I'll:

> 1. check the chain tension (though I'm pretty sure there's a good 2
> inches of play there),
> 2. check for play in the hub,
> 2. dump some oil in there this weekend, take it for a slow ride for
> a while with plenty of gear changing (while laying off the rear
> brake), and see what happens.

> As usual, much appreciated.

Do NOT use oil more viscous than 10W motor oil (Sturmey Archer oil).
As you see, automotive gear oils are too viscous to allow reliable
shifting and articulation of the ratchet pawls. Note the tiny thin
springs that move the ratchet pawls. Any stiffer ones would make an
exaggerated three-speed-click that's bad enough as it is.

Where this comes to bear especially is in the SA-SW hubs that were
discontinued, I suspect, for mechanical failures caused by 30W or more
viscous oils. The ratchet pawls in these hubs had no springs and in
the presence of viscous oils would not engage reliably. These hubs
were silent in normal operation for lack of spring activation of the
pawls, which turned out to be their downfall in the hands of bicycle
mechanics who believed the heavire the oil the better.

SA oil is similar to Singer sewing machine oil and Teletype oil of old.
Basically, 10W motor oil. You are best off with SA oil.

Jobst Brandt

[Michael Baldwin]

Scott rightfully asks;

>I wasn't aware that oil drains freely from the SA
>system. Was this designed into the hub as a feature?

Regardless of whether or not it was a designed "feature", I consider it
damn handy!
I've spray flushed totally dysfunctional 3 speed hubs back into
productive members of society.

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

[Dan Burkhart]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Wrote:
> Dan Burkhart writes:
>
> >>>>> I've got a gummed up SW 3 speed hub I'd like to get cleaned out
> >>>>> over the winter. Naturally, I could take it to a shop, but I'd
> >>>>> rather become acquainted with it's workings (and save a few
> >>>>> shekels). Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html
>
> >>>>> but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the thing half dismantled
> >>>>> and then forget about it if I work on it solo. I've also found
> >>>>> that when it comes to this stuff two idiots are better than one
> >>>>> idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat similar hub (like an AW),
> >>>>> curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge, an afternoon, and
> >>>>> like beer and/or coffee? Also, if there's any old hands with a
> >>>>> lot of experience with them who knows a trick (eg: open oil
> >>>>> port, pour in acetone, ride 2 miles, let sit for two weeks, add
> >>>>> 3ccs transmission fluid...), I'd love to hear it.
>
> >>>>> PS: Feels good to write "Sheldon has" rather than "Sheldon had",
> as
> >>>>> his website will live forever.
>
> >>>> Unless you're motivated to do it right ( disassemble, clean,
> >>>> rebuild) all in one evening* I'd add a good clean oil and ride
> >>>> it. Check the bearing adjustment (left side) for a slight trace
> >>>> of play at the rim and make sure the chain isn't overly tight
> >>>> either. It may not be 'gummed up' at all.
>
> >>>> *Professionals: about 20~30 minutes from bike on floor to bike on
> >>>> floor, complete. Expect a good solid hour or two for the first
> >>>> dance. You'll likely forget small details if you don't lay out
> >>>> parts in order and reassemble promptly, just like a car gearbox.
>
> >>> By 'good clean oil' you mean a low viscosity? Any
> >>> recommendations? Sheldon mentions transmission fluid.
>
> >> I don't think it is critical but Sturmey Archer Oil is the sort of
> >> oil one would use in a lathe headstock. There's no great
> >> temperature or rpm demand in an AW.
>
> >> In the olden days we advised 'chain oil'. The term is meaningless
> >> today as it now encompasses wax, Teflon, aerosols, hemp squeezin's,
> >> probably organic whale blubber and who knows what. Oil. Just
> >> dead-dinosaur oil.
>
> >> We use a hypoid 90 gear lube. It's fine. Anything lighter in the
> >> series would also be fine. Again, no high rpm or temperatures in
> >> there.
>
> >> As Jobst notes, it's a simple slosh-lubricated system with a lot of
> >> seal bleed. Sturmey says 'a drop per fortnight in daily use', i.e.,
> >> a little and frequently. Anything over 2 tablespoons runs out on
> >> your rim anyway.
>
> > Hypoid gear lube is classed as EP or extreme pressure. It's
> > formulated to stay in place between gear teeth under , well, extreme
> > pressure. Great for heavy truck axles. Don't know if it offers any
> > benefit or detriment for such a light duty application. Truck
> > component manufacturers warn against using it in transmissions.
>
> A Hypoid gear is used in differential rear axle drives where the input
> shaft lies off center (in order to allow a low floor in a passenger
> car) of the ring gear. It is half way between an ordinary "on-axis"
> bevel gear and a tangential worm drive on the ring gear. That means
> it has high sliding motion similar to a worm drive, and that is what
> is different about hypoid gear oil. It's not the pressure, but rather
> the sliding action of the interface of ring and pinion.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoid
> http://gemini.tntech.edu/~slc3675/me361/lecture/grnts4.html
>
> Jobst Brandt
Reducing floor humps is not the only benefit of hypoid gearing. They
are stronger, smoother and quieter than spiral bevel gears. Any one of
these advantages would make them the natural choice for high load
applications like heavy truck axles, their slight efficiency
dissadvantage notwithstanding.
Dan


--
Dan Burkhart

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 06:25:05 -0500, MLB5611@webtv.net (Michael Baldwin)
wrote:
>Scott rightfully asks;
>
>>I wasn't aware that oil drains freely from the SA
>>system. Was this designed into the hub as a feature?
>
> Regardless of whether or not it was a designed "feature", I consider it
>damn handy!
> I've spray flushed totally dysfunctional 3 speed hubs back into
>productive members of society.

Personally, I prefer opening them up. Taking that sort of thing apart and
then putting it together again is a) a hobby and b) not terribly hard. The
5=speeds are harder, but there just ain't that many parts in an AW/AB.

Jasper

[Brian Huntley]

On Feb 9, 2:42 pm, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com> wrote:
> I was commuting (by bike) following a snow storm. It was dawn, the
> streets were quiet, and the trees and houses, heavily laden with snow,
> were lovely. I don't know why but Sheldon came to mind as I delighted
> in the occasion. How sad it was to realize he'd never again savor such
> a charming moment.

I was thinking the same thing (possibly in the same storm), and
Sheldon's line about "Coasting is a pernicious habit" came to mind. So
long as I kept pedaling, I didn't get any wheel spin or slide, and
could continue along my slow but steady way.

I was probably in a 40" gear. Sorry, I don't know what that is in
Sheldon's units.

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:59:09 +0100, Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org>
wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:13:10 -0800 (PST), Scott Gordo
><blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Sheldon has some instructions (and warnings) at
>>http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/sw.html, but I'm pretty sure
>>I'm going to get the thing half dismantled and then forget about it if
>>I work on it solo. I've also found that when it comes to this stuff
>>two idiots are better than one idiot. Anyone in NYC have a somewhat
>>similar hub (like an AW), curiosity, some basic wrenching knowledge,
>>an afternoon, and like beer and/or coffee?
>
>The BWs I've done, the only difficult thing was getting the outer cap off

Sorry, I meant ABs -- the B(rake) version of the AW, but I got the
location of the b wrong intitially.


Jasper

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Scott Gordo writes:

> Report:

> Chain tension was fine, and no significant play in bearings/cones
> detected. I added oil through the port and rode for a while. Overall
> shifting was smoother, but I am indeed running into issues in the
> top gear which slips irregularly. (This only happens in 3rd.) I'll
> try and get a couple more rides in, but signs are pointing toward a
> bit of surgery.

> If the driver cross is worn, any recommendations on how to fix?
> File? Grinder? Replacement?

It is hardened steel and resurfacing would remove it's case hardening.
I am sure there are supplies who can sell you a new one. Just the
same, it is destined to pop out of top gear under continuous high load
because it is not re-entrant and axle elasticity guarantees that there
is yaw in the engagement that will cause it to separate. The slot in
the hollow axle doesn't help either.

That was my earliest encounter with bicycle touring and racing. The
SA-AW hub caused two over-the-bars crashes for me on a top gear
sprint. The second time got me to analyze what was occurring. As I
have said in these pages, SA knew this and spent years telling users
that their hub jumped out of gear because their shift chain was
incorrectly adjusted. Disengagement under load will occur even
without the shift cable attached, the most favorable condition for top
gear engagement.

> I'm also surprised by the big gearing of the bike overall. It's hard
> for me to imagine getting this little rod-braked Rudge up to the
> kind of speed where gear 3 will spin quickly enough to be efficient.

It isn't a high gear. These hubs were customarily run with a 48t-20t
chain ratio, the planetary giving -25% and +33% from that basis.

Jobst Brandt

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <47b09a55$0$36412$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Scott Gordo writes:
>
> > Report:
>
> > Chain tension was fine, and no significant play in bearings/cones
> > detected. I added oil through the port and rode for a while. Overall
> > shifting was smoother, but I am indeed running into issues in the
> > top gear which slips irregularly. (This only happens in 3rd.) I'll
> > try and get a couple more rides in, but signs are pointing toward a
> > bit of surgery.
>
> > If the driver cross is worn, any recommendations on how to fix?
> > File? Grinder? Replacement?

> It is hardened steel and resurfacing would remove it's case hardening.
> I am sure there are supplies who can sell you a new one. Just the
> same, it is destined to pop out of top gear under continuous high load
> because it is not re-entrant and axle elasticity guarantees that there
> is yaw in the engagement that will cause it to separate. The slot in
> the hollow axle doesn't help either.

<http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sturmey-archer-parts.html#smallparts>

Go down to HSA117, "cross driver," $4.95.

> That was my earliest encounter with bicycle touring and racing. The
> SA-AW hub caused two over-the-bars crashes for me on a top gear
> sprint. The second time got me to analyze what was occurring. As I
> have said in these pages, SA knew this and spent years telling users
> that their hub jumped out of gear because their shift chain was
> incorrectly adjusted. Disengagement under load will occur even
> without the shift cable attached, the most favorable condition for top
> gear engagement.

As Sheldon has left this mortal coil, it now falls upon me to fill in
with his default response, which is that all that you have said about
these hubs jumping out of gear under high load is true, and that any
user should be aware of this failing, but that in practice this is
rarely a problem for typical S-A 3-speed users, who are unlikely to
apply a sprint-load to the hub in top gear.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Jasper Janssen]

On 11 Feb 2008 18:56:21 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>It isn't a high gear. These hubs were customarily run with a 48t-20t
>chain ratio, the planetary giving -25% and +33% from that basis.
\
They were customarily run with a 52/50 and a 15/16, actually.

Us dutchies (who were allegedly the majority takers for these things at
least in some decades) like high gears and low rpm.

Jasper

[Tom Sherman]

Jasper Janssen wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 06:25:05 -0500, MLB5611@webtv.net (Michael Baldwin)
> wrote:
>> Scott rightfully asks;
>>
>>> I wasn't aware that oil drains freely from the SA
>>> system. Was this designed into the hub as a feature?
>> Regardless of whether or not it was a designed "feature", I consider it
>> damn handy!
>> I've spray flushed totally dysfunctional 3 speed hubs back into
>> productive members of society.
>
> Personally, I prefer opening them up. Taking that sort of thing apart and
> then putting it together again is a) a hobby and b) not terribly hard. The
> 5=speeds are harder, but there just ain't that many parts in an AW/AB.
>
A little simpler than a Rohloff?
<http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/video/mix/striptease/index.html>

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:16:07 -0600, Tom Sherman
<sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>Jasper Janssen wrote:

>> Personally, I prefer opening them up. Taking that sort of thing apart and
>> then putting it together again is a) a hobby and b) not terribly hard. The
>> 5=speeds are harder, but there just ain't that many parts in an AW/AB.
>>
>A little simpler than a Rohloff?
><http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/video/mix/striptease/index.html>

Quite.

Jasper

[Scott Gordo]

On Feb 12, 4:03*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <47b09a55$0$36412$742ec...@news.sonic.net>,
>
>
>
>
>
> *jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > Scott Gordo writes:
>
> > > Report:
>
> > > Chain tension was fine, and no significant play in bearings/cones
> > > detected. I added oil through the port and rode for a while. Overall
> > > shifting was smoother, but I am indeed running into issues in the
> > > top gear which slips irregularly. (This only happens in 3rd.) I'll
> > > try and get a couple more rides in, but signs are pointing toward a
> > > bit of surgery.
>
> > > If the driver cross is worn, any recommendations on how to fix?
> > > File? *Grinder? Replacement?
> > It is hardened steel and resurfacing would remove it's case hardening.
> > I am sure there are supplies who can sell you a new one. *Just the
> > same, it is destined to pop out of top gear under continuous high load
> > because it is not re-entrant and axle elasticity guarantees that there
> > is yaw in the engagement that will cause it to separate. *The slot in
> > the hollow axle doesn't help either.
>
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/sturmey-archer-parts.html#smallparts>
>
> Go down to HSA117, "cross driver," $4.95.
>
> > That was my earliest encounter with bicycle touring and racing. *The
> > SA-AW hub caused two over-the-bars crashes for me on a top gear
> > sprint. *The second time got me to analyze what was occurring. *As I
> > have said in these pages, SA knew this and spent years telling users
> > that their hub jumped out of gear because their shift chain was
> > incorrectly adjusted. *Disengagement under load will occur even
> > without the shift cable attached, the most favorable condition for top
> > gear engagement.
>
> As Sheldon has left this mortal coil, it now falls upon me to fill in
> with his default response, which is that all that you have said about
> these hubs jumping out of gear under high load is true, and that any
> user should be aware of this failing, but that in practice this is
> rarely a problem for typical S-A 3-speed users, who are unlikely to
> apply a sprint-load to the hub in top gear.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@gmail.comhttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
fun.

Ryan, while I agree with your sentiment, the only way I was able to
keep the bike moving in top gear in my nabe was by putting a good deal
of my 215lbs into the pedals. However, as you say, this isn't typical
rider behavior, which is why the SW seems like an odd choice for a
townie three speed. Second gear isn't bad, but I rarely seem to take
the bike out of first gear. It's quite undersized for me so I'm not
able to get proper leverage, but it's just not a go-fast bike.

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<918c41b6-f644-4631-8c1c-4015d7f27fa6@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
> fun.

Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light before
it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was suddenly in
freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then my shoulder and
arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of
racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground
that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar bone at
the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise (my left hip is
still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the way up my arm onto the
top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a few days, at 48 I don't
heal up as quickly as I did at 25.

As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a smidge
(turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I think that
the sensation is very much like what would happen when sprinting
full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of engagement. It
is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I would imagine.

[Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article
> <918c41b6-f644-4631-8c1c-4015d7f27fa6@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
>> fun.
>
> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
> with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
> ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light before
> it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was suddenly in
> freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then my shoulder and
> arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of
> racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground
> that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
> carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar bone at
> the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise (my left hip is
> still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the way up my arm onto the
> top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a few days, at 48 I don't
> heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
>
> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
> chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a smidge
> (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I think that
> the sensation is very much like what would happen when sprinting
> full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of engagement. It
> is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I would imagine.

Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <timmcn-17F6BE.17115812022008@news.iphouse.com>,
Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> In article
> <918c41b6-f644-4631-8c1c-4015d7f27fa6@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:

[inherent dangers of SW 3-speeds under heavy load in top gear]

> > Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
> > fun.
>
> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
> with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
> ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light before
> it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was suddenly in
> freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then my shoulder and
> arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of
> racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground
> that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
> carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar bone at
> the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise (my left hip is
> still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the way up my arm onto the
> top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a few days, at 48 I don't
> heal up as quickly as I did at 25.

I had a remarkably similar crash a few years ago, when I dropped the
chain on an 8-speed BMX. Insta-freewheel, and I went forward over the
bars. I didn't expect that.

This was at relatively low speed, and taught me a vital lesson about
chain management.

> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
> chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a smidge
> (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I think that
> the sensation is very much like what would happen when sprinting
> full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of engagement. It
> is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I would imagine.

I should say that all things being equal, I wouldn't specify a
classic-design SA AW for a bike I was building. I would pick a modern
(SA (Sunrace, really), SRAM, or Suntour) unit, or better yet one of the
many 7-9 speed hub gear setups now available for reasonable money.

But that's not to say that old 3-speeds are unrideably dangerous, either.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <fotgut$8h7$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article
> > <918c41b6-f644-4631-8c1c-4015d7f27fa6@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
> >> fun.
> >
> > Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
> > with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
> > ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light before
> > it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was suddenly in
> > freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then my shoulder and
> > arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of
> > racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground
> > that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
> > carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar bone at
> > the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise (my left hip is
> > still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the way up my arm onto the
> > top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a few days, at 48 I don't
> > heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
> > chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a smidge
> > (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I think that
> > the sensation is very much like what would happen when sprinting
> > full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of engagement. It
> > is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I would imagine.
>
> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.

It's worth the risk.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[A Muzi]

>> Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like fun.

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
>> with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
>> ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light
>> before it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was
>> suddenly in freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then
>> my shoulder and arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact.
>> In 9 seasons of racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked
>> into the ground that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones
>> and moved very very carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip
>> and/or collar bone at the very least, but I got off with a very severe
>> bruise (my left hip is still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the
>> way up my arm onto the top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a
>> few days, at 48 I don't heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
>> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
>> chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a
>> smidge (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I
>> think that the sensation is very much like what would happen when
>> sprinting full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of
>> engagement. It is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I
>> would imagine.

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.

Yep, thrillingly so.
Hey,life kills; ya wanna sit in front of a TV and wait or stand up and ride?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Michael Press]

In article <fotgut$8h7$2@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article
> > <918c41b6-f644-4631-8c1c-4015d7f27fa6@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
> >> fun.
> >
> > Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
> > with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
> > ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light before
> > it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was suddenly in
> > freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then my shoulder and
> > arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of
> > racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground
> > that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
> > carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar bone at
> > the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise (my left hip is
> > still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the way up my arm onto the
> > top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a few days, at 48 I don't
> > heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
> > chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a smidge
> > (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I think that
> > the sensation is very much like what would happen when sprinting
> > full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of engagement. It
> > is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I would imagine.
>
> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.

!

--
Michael Press

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Feb 12, 6:25*pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
> > chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a smidge
> > (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). *I think that
> > the sensation is very much like what would happen when sprinting
> > full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of engagement. *It
> > is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I would imagine.
>
> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.

Look at it this way: it's much safer than standing up and
pedaling on a recumbent.

Ben

[Tom Sherman]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <timmcn-17F6BE.17115812022008@news.iphouse.com>,
> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <918c41b6-f644-4631-8c1c-4015d7f27fa6@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>> Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [inherent dangers of SW 3-speeds under heavy load in top gear]
>
>>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
>>> fun.
>> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
>> with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
>> ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light before
>> it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was suddenly in
>> freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then my shoulder and
>> arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of
>> racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground
>> that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
>> carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar bone at
>> the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise (my left hip is
>> still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the way up my arm onto the
>> top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a few days, at 48 I don't
>> heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
>
> I had a remarkably similar crash a few years ago, when I dropped the
> chain on an 8-speed BMX. Insta-freewheel, and I went forward over the
> bars. I didn't expect that.
>
> This was at relatively low speed, and taught me a vital lesson about
> chain management.
>
The last time I lost a chain when pedaling hard, my feet went around
really quickly for one revolution, but nothing else happened. I use SPD
"S" cleats at fairly high release tension for circumstances like these.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Ryan Cousineau writes:

> I should say that all things being equal, I wouldn't specify a
> classic-design SA AW for a bike I was building. I would pick a
> modern (SA (Sunrace, really), SRAM, or Suntour) unit, or better yet
> one of the many 7-9 speed hub gear setups now available for
> reasonable money.

> But that's not to say that old 3-speeds are unridably dangerous,
> either.

The SA AW hub had this serious flaw that usually did not cause damage
of injury because few 3-speed-hub riders stood in top gear, the gear
that WILL disengage into free wheeling under load. In the days when
these hubs were the mainstay of non-balloon tired bicycles, the
complaint that they did not stay in gear was heard often in bicycle
shops. The response was always the Sturmey Archer BS that the shift
link (chain) was incorrectly adjusted.

With the free fit of its planet pins and the floating planetary
carrier in which these pins resided, together with axle flex made
disengagement into freewheeling forward a regular occurrence. I
recognized the symptom from experiencing my father's 1937 Ford that
regularly popped out of second gear when descending steep grades.
There were no bent shafts or failings other than in the design, in
which elastic shaft flex made these transmissions disengage.

At Ford they gave the same BS excuse that the gear was not properly
engaged. With bicycles, people are even more gullible and SA was able
to pull this sham off for the life of the AW hub. These are the
failures for which a good technical attorney could bring many valid
failure cases against SA. I find too bad that they got a way with it.
My crashes were fortunate in that I was young and fast and did a
perfect summersault, with bicycle in hand and had no injuries other
than a bit of road rash.

Jobst Brandt

[Tom Sherman]

Andrew Muzi wrote:
>>> Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
>>>> fun.
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
>>> with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on level
>>> ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green light
>>> before it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I was
>>> suddenly in freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement, then
>>> my shoulder and arm taking the brunt of what remained of the impact.
>>> In 9 seasons of racing road and track and cyclo-cross I never smacked
>>> into the ground that hard. I really thought that I had broken bones
>>> and moved very very carefully at first. I fully expected a broken
>>> hip and/or collar bone at the very least, but I got off with a very
>>> severe bruise (my left hip is still tender to the touch) and scrapes
>>> all the way up my arm onto the top of my shoulder. I was stiff and
>>> sore for a few days, at 48 I don't heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
>>> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
>>> chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a
>>> smidge (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I
>>> think that the sensation is very much like what would happen when
>>> sprinting full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of
>>> engagement. It is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I
>>> would imagine.
>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.
>
> Yep, thrillingly so.
> Hey,life kills; ya wanna sit in front of a TV and wait or stand up and
> ride?
>
I usually lay down when riding, unless it is a short trip or off-road. :)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[A Muzi]

>>>> Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
>>>>> fun.

>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set up
>>>> with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle on
>>>> level ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale" green
>>>> light before it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came down I
>>>> was suddenly in freefall and augered my left hip into the pavement,
>>>> then my shoulder and arm taking the brunt of what remained of the
>>>> impact. In 9 seasons of racing road and track and cyclo-cross I
>>>> never smacked into the ground that hard. I really thought that I
>>>> had broken bones and moved very very carefully at first. I fully
>>>> expected a broken hip and/or collar bone at the very least, but I
>>>> got off with a very severe bruise (my left hip is still tender to
>>>> the touch) and scrapes all the way up my arm onto the top of my
>>>> shoulder. I was stiff and sore for a few days, at 48 I don't heal
>>>> up as quickly as I did at 25.
>>>> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off the
>>>> chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by just a
>>>> smidge (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved it). I
>>>> think that the sensation is very much like what would happen when
>>>> sprinting full-out on an SA AW hub and having top gear walk out of
>>>> engagement. It is like being in an elevator when the cable snaps, I
>>>> would imagine.

>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.

> Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> Yep, thrillingly so.
>> Hey,life kills; ya wanna sit in front of a TV and wait or stand up and
>> ride?

Tom Sherman wrote:
> I usually lay down when riding, unless it is a short trip or off-road. :)

When I lie in the roadway, my bike laid beside me, something has just
gone surprisingly and seriously wrong. Rare. So far not fatally.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Tom Sherman writes:

>>>>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
>>>>> fun.

>>>> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set
>>>> up with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle
>>>> on level ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale"
>>>> green light before it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came
>>>> down I was suddenly in freefall and augered my left hip into the
>>>> pavement, then my shoulder and arm taking the brunt of what
>>>> remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of racing road and track
>>>> and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground that hard. I
>>>> really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
>>>> carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar
>>>> bone at the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise
>>>> (my left hip is still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the
>>>> way up my arm onto the top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore
>>>> for a few days, at 48 I don't heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
>>>> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off
>>>> the chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by
>>>> just a smidge (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved
>>>> it). I think that the sensation is very much like what would
>>>> happen when sprinting full-out on an SA AW hub and having top
>>>> gear walk out of engagement. It is like being in an elevator
>>>> when the cable snaps, I would imagine.

>>> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.

>> Yep, thrillingly so. Hey,life kills; ya wanna sit in front of a TV
>> and wait or stand up and ride?

> I usually lay down when riding, unless it is a short trip or
> off-road. :)

What sort of eggs do you lay when doing this. I've seen recumbent
riders lie on their vehicles but none laid anything.

Jobst Brandt

[Jasper Janssen]

On 13 Feb 2008 02:50:35 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>Ryan Cousineau writes:
>
>> I should say that all things being equal, I wouldn't specify a
>> classic-design SA AW for a bike I was building. I would pick a
>> modern (SA (Sunrace, really), SRAM, or Suntour) unit, or better yet
>> one of the many 7-9 speed hub gear setups now available for
>> reasonable money.
>
>> But that's not to say that old 3-speeds are unridably dangerous,
>> either.
>
>The SA AW hub had this serious flaw that usually did not cause damage
>of injury because few 3-speed-hub riders stood in top gear, the gear
>that WILL disengage into free wheeling under load. In the days when

That MAY do so if you're you, yes.

>these hubs were the mainstay of non-balloon tired bicycles, the
>complaint that they did not stay in gear was heard often in bicycle
>shops. The response was always the Sturmey Archer BS that the shift
>link (chain) was incorrectly adjusted.


Which is, in fact, the usual cause. Not staying in gear is *NOT* for the
most part a top-gear phenomenon, and when correctly adjusted getting the
phenomenon you feel the need to complain about 5 times, at length, in
every single thread that mentions Sturmey requires standing up on the
pedals for a fairly long period in top gear *while not letting up on the
pedals at any point*. If at any point you hesitate even shortly, the
creeping will reset. You pretty much have to be not-the-target-group to
experience it.

It is *not* a common problem unless your name is Jobst.

Jasper

[Brian Huntley]

On Feb 12, 10:11 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Tom Sherman writes:
> >>>>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
> >>>>> fun.
> >>>> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set
> >>>> up with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle
> >>>> on level ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale"
> >>>> green light before it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came
> >>>> down I was suddenly in freefall and augered my left hip into the
> >>>> pavement, then my shoulder and arm taking the brunt of what
> >>>> remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of racing road and track
> >>>> and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground that hard. I
> >>>> really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
> >>>> carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar
> >>>> bone at the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise
> >>>> (my left hip is still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the
> >>>> way up my arm onto the top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore
> >>>> for a few days, at 48 I don't heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
> >>>> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off
> >>>> the chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by
> >>>> just a smidge (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved
> >>>> it). I think that the sensation is very much like what would
> >>>> happen when sprinting full-out on an SA AW hub and having top
> >>>> gear walk out of engagement. It is like being in an elevator
> >>>> when the cable snaps, I would imagine.
> >>> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.
> >> Yep, thrillingly so. Hey,life kills; ya wanna sit in front of a TV
> >> and wait or stand up and ride?
> > I usually lay down when riding, unless it is a short trip or
> > off-road. :)
>
> What sort of eggs do you lay when doing this. I've seen recumbent
> riders lie on their vehicles but none laid anything.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Oh, no. Let's not get started in on who's lying or not. I've had quite
enough of that.

[Tom Sherman]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Tom Sherman writes:
>
>>>>>> Oof. Going over the bars during a full on sprint doesn't sound like
>>>>>> fun.
>
>>>>> Well, I did close to that last October. I have one road bike set
>>>>> up with an SRAM 3 speed and was honking along out of the saddle
>>>>> on level ground, going maybe 24-25 as I was clearing a "stale"
>>>>> green light before it turned yellow. Slam! As my left foot came
>>>>> down I was suddenly in freefall and augered my left hip into the
>>>>> pavement, then my shoulder and arm taking the brunt of what
>>>>> remained of the impact. In 9 seasons of racing road and track
>>>>> and cyclo-cross I never smacked into the ground that hard. I
>>>>> really thought that I had broken bones and moved very very
>>>>> carefully at first. I fully expected a broken hip and/or collar
>>>>> bone at the very least, but I got off with a very severe bruise
>>>>> (my left hip is still tender to the touch) and scrapes all the
>>>>> way up my arm onto the top of my shoulder. I was stiff and sore
>>>>> for a few days, at 48 I don't heal up as quickly as I did at 25.
>>>>> As far as I can tell, what happened is that the chain came off
>>>>> the chainring- on close examination, the chain line was off by
>>>>> just a smidge (turning the dished cog around seems to have solved
>>>>> it). I think that the sensation is very much like what would
>>>>> happen when sprinting full-out on an SA AW hub and having top
>>>>> gear walk out of engagement. It is like being in an elevator
>>>>> when the cable snaps, I would imagine.
>
>>>> Standing and pedaling on an upright sounds dangerous.
>
>>> Yep, thrillingly so. Hey,life kills; ya wanna sit in front of a TV
>>> and wait or stand up and ride?
>
>> I usually lay down when riding, unless it is a short trip or
>> off-road. :)
>
> What sort of eggs do you lay when doing this.

Ones that product baby recumbents.

> I've seen recumbent
> riders lie on their vehicles but none laid anything.
>

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <ukg6r3hq8ogneo5ntbc0g6fdj9lfg3gpv7@4ax.com>,
Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:16:07 -0600, Tom Sherman
> <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
> >> Personally, I prefer opening them up. Taking that sort of thing apart and
> >> then putting it together again is a) a hobby and b) not terribly hard. The
> >> 5=speeds are harder, but there just ain't that many parts in an AW/AB.
> >>
> >A little simpler than a Rohloff?
> ><http://www.rohloff.de/en/download/video/mix/striptease/index.html>
>
> Quite.
>
> Jasper

The only thing separating a Rohloff from a mechanical wristwatch is that
the Rohloff is still a defensibly useful item!

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."