Tied and Soldered [Archive] - Triangle Cycling

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:37 AM

On 09 Feb 2008 19:35:26 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Although the true believers on wreck.bike don't believe that tying
>(and soldering) spokes was invented by John Starley to prevent spokes
>from causing an endo by flailing around on high wheelers, the
>motorcycle folks know otherwise. To make up for that, Triumph made
>spoked wheels with spoke elbows unsupported for more than two
>diameters from the flange. These are classic spoke breakers, like the
>ones DT once made with longer elbows for easier spoke insertion.
>
>http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

The only contemporary sources that I can find _never_ mention tying
and soldering to restrain broken spokes.

They talk about tying and soldering to strengthen the wheel. The more
plausible claim was that tying and soldering effectively created a
much bigger hub flange, while weirder claims were put forward about
restraining sideways movements.

They also talk about reducing rattle. Long spokes on highwheelers do
rattle if crossed.

It would be strange if early inventors wanted to tie and solder spokes
to restrain them when they broke. A spoke that broke at the elbow was
already well-restrained by the crossing--anyone who's ever had to bend
and wiggle a broken-elbow spoke out of a 3x lacing knows that.

And a two-foot long spoke that breaks at the rim (a much rarer
failure) is still restrained by being woven through the other spokes
and will not be restrained much better by tying and soldering down
next to the hub.

In other words, tying and soldering wouldn't do much to restrain
already interlaced spokes when they broke. But even if it's a dumb
idea, someone might have tried it in good faith--Starley or someone
else might have tried it and the useless idea might have caught on.

Here's the earliest patent that I've seen with tying and soldering.
The explanation sounds like nonsense, but Palmer claims that he ties
and solders for strength:

"The crossing parts of the spokes k l may be connected with wire bound
round the crossing parts and soldered. By arranging and connecting the
spokes in the manner described a direct tensile strain is put on each
spoke without any oblique strain."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=r9ZuAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=359809

Here's another earlypatent, in which Latta uses special clips
_without_ soldering for connecting spokes:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=oChZAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA62&dq=377900

Frustratingly, Latta doesn't explain why the hell he connects his
spokes.

Here's a patent by Warwick for a "double-sleeve" (44 in the diagrams)
that joins the spokes (43 in the diagram) where they cross on a
highwheeler:

"For the purpose of increasing the strength of a wheel, either front
or rear, by holding the spokes 43 in line, the double sleeve 44 is
provided . . ."
http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZndnAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA20&dq=384946

Like Latta, Warwick was a prolific and successful early inventor,
working for a bicycle company. Neither Latta nor Warwick mention
restraining broken spokes when they insist on lashing spokes together.

Here's Peter Gendron, another famous early inventor (Gendron Bicycle
Company), explaining that tying and soldering prevented rattling:

"The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub in
some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of causing
the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each other . . .
[yes, they all wrote like this] . . . the tension of the spokes being
sufficient to completely effect this result, so that the spokes will
not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same object is
accomplished with the present construction of wheel by winding or
tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small wire; but in
practice this is very annoying in different ways--as, for instance, in
cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1

Of course, Latta, Warwick, and Gendron could all have been unaware of
some early theory about restraining broken spokes.

But until someone finds an earlier reference to restraining broken
spokes, there's nothing but belief to support the theory that this was
the original purpose of tying and soldering. So far, all the
references are to strengthening wheels and stopping rattles.

In other words, you're the "true believer"--you keep telling us that
you vaguely remember reading somewhere that Starley tied and soldered
spokes to restrain them when they broke.

Let us know if you ever find the reference.

I keep looking, but so far I haven't found _anything_ about _anyone_
who said that he lashed spokes together for safety.

But I keep finding clear contemporary explanations that spokes were
tied and soldered for strength (probably wrong, but that was the
theory) and to stop rattling (it worked).

Here are a few more previously mentioned references.

In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from an
1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:

"Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to prvent
rattles."

***

In 1898, the author of "The Modern Bicycle and its accessories"
mentions the pros and cons of tying and soldering as strength and
explained that solderless clips might be better than heating the
spokes. But he never mentions restraining spokes as the reason:

"The majority of them [tangent-spoke wheel makers] tie their spokes to
each other where they cross. There are a great many of the makers who
do not tie them at all, there being some difference of opinion as to
the benefit derived from this treatment."

"Those in favor of tying spokes say that tying two or more [!] spokes
together at the crossing some distance above the hub shortens the
leverage from the rim and practically gives the wheel an additional
hub; that they are also stiffer against side or lateral strain, and
that the only good tangent spoke is one that is tied at the crossing
with its mates. Those who are opposed to tying spokes say that tying
them together makes them too rigid and inflexible [!], and that the
process of wiring them and soldering them together has a tendency to
crystallize the spokes at this point owing to the heat required to
solder them. This part of the argument, however, has been met by by
not wiring and soldering the spokes at the crossing, but by pinching
on them at this point a metal clamp such as is used on the Humber
wheel. The opponents of tying the spokes assert that the very
stiffness and rigidness which the wheel possesses when the spokes are
tied has a tendency to also crystallize them at the hub flanges as
well as cause them to break [!]."

http://books.google.com/books?id=1CRyfR7JclIC&printsec=titlepage#PPA69,M1

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Werehatrack

01-04-1970, 02:37 AM

On 09 Feb 2008 19:35:26 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org may have
said:

>http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

In the photos of the hub, the problem is obvious; they made the inner
surface of the hub flat instead of using a wavy flange that would have
properly spaced the all-inner spokes. (Note that they knew they had a
problem; alternate spoke holes are counterbored to allow the
doubly-inner spokes to sit inboard of the singly-inner ones...but in
doing so, they insured that the spoke's bent end is supported only
next to the head, and not near the elbow. This is a Mistake.) A wavy
flange that supported the spokes properly could have made the concept
work reasonably well, but it's still not a good idea.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 02:37 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Although the true believers on wreck.bike don't believe that tying
> (and soldering) spokes was invented by John Starley to prevent spokes
> from causing an endo by flailing around on high wheelers, the
> motorcycle folks know otherwise. To make up for that, Triumph made
> spoked wheels with spoke elbows unsupported for more than two
> diameters from the flange. These are classic spoke breakers, like the
> ones DT once made with longer elbows for easier spoke insertion.
>
> http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
Did Jobst come across this discussion because his book is mentioned in it?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:37 AM

Jay Beattie writes:

>> Although the true believers on wreck.bike don't believe that tying
>> (and soldering) spokes was invented by John Starley to prevent
>> spokes from causing an endo by flailing around on high wheelers,
>> the motorcycle folks know otherwise. Â*To make up for that, Triumph
>> made spoked wheels with spoke elbows unsupported for more than two
>> diameters from the flange. Â*These are classic spoke breakers, like
>> the ones DT once made with longer elbows for easier spoke
>> insertion.

> The DTs didn't come close to that, though. You would have to use a
> 10mm stack of washers on the spokes on that Triumph. And at least DT
> had an excuse that was not "looks."

A stack of washers might make you feel better about it, but the spoke
would get nothing from them, because it must reach around the other
spoke with its elbow whether it has washers between the flange and
elbow or not. This is a major design error. All the spokes should
have short elbows and come from opposite sides of the flange, as on
most bicycle wheels.

Jobst Brandt

jim beam

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Jay Beattie writes:
>
>>> Although the true believers on wreck.bike don't believe that tying
>>> (and soldering) spokes was invented by John Starley to prevent
>>> spokes from causing an endo by flailing around on high wheelers,
>>> the motorcycle folks know otherwise. To make up for that, Triumph
>>> made spoked wheels with spoke elbows unsupported for more than two
>>> diameters from the flange. These are classic spoke breakers, like
>>> the ones DT once made with longer elbows for easier spoke
>>> insertion.
>
>> The DTs didn't come close to that, though. You would have to use a
>> 10mm stack of washers on the spokes on that Triumph. And at least DT
>> had an excuse that was not "looks."
>
> A stack of washers might make you feel better about it, but the spoke
> would get nothing from them, because it must reach around the other
> spoke with its elbow whether it has washers between the flange and
> elbow or not. This is a major design error. All the spokes should
> have short elbows and come from opposite sides of the flange, as on
> most bicycle wheels.
>

better yet, eliminate the design error completely - use straight pull
spokes like modern bmw motorcycle wheels.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels/GS-tube.jpg
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels/ssdetail.jpg

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

Carl Fogel writes:

>> Although the true believers on wreck.bike don't believe that tying
>> (and soldering) spokes was invented by John Starley to prevent
>> spokes from causing an endo by flailing around on high wheelers,
>> the motorcycle folks know otherwise. To make up for that, Triumph
>> made spoked wheels with spoke elbows unsupported for more than two
>> diameters from the flange. These are classic spoke breakers, like
>> the ones DT once made with longer elbows for easier spoke
>> insertion.

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

> The only contemporary sources that I can find _never_ mention tying
> and soldering to restrain broken spokes.

You didn't look hard enough. Johns Starley invented cross laced
spoking for that purpose, high wheelers al being radially spoked
before then:

http://i12.tinypic.com/4tz3tp0.jpg

> They talk about tying and soldering to strengthen the wheel. The
> more plausible claim was that tying and soldering effectively
> created a much bigger hub flange, while weirder claims were put
> forward about restraining sideways movements.

I think that claim has been thoroughly debunked. Right after Starley
came up with that solution, Renold offered a bicycle chain that Starley
fould useful and brought out the Safety Bicycle:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=rzyi&pic_id=150971&v=AH&size=small

that no longer needed to tie spokes but the wheelbuilders were
resistant to lose this source of income and retold the myth of great
strength loud enough that there are yet believers in it. I heard the
anguish when "the Bicycle Wheeel" showed a measurement method that
should have put a wooden stake through its evil heart.

> They also talk about reducing rattle. Long spokes on highwheelers do
> rattle if crossed.

THat was gotten rid of by interleaving spokes, not by tying.

> It would be strange if early inventors wanted to tie and solder
> spokes to restrain them when they broke. A spoke that broke at the
> elbow was already well-restrained by the crossing--anyone who's ever
> had to bend and wiggle a broken-elbow spoke out of a 3x lacing knows
> that.

They didn't do that, They were tied with twine and only after there
was no need for it did they switch to wire and solder to make the
added strength concept credible.

> And a two-foot long spoke that breaks at the rim (a much rarer
> failure) is still restrained by being woven through the other spokes
> and will not be restrained much better by tying and soldering down
> next to the hub.

You can't weave radial spokes!

> In other words, tying and soldering wouldn't do much to restrain
> already interlaced spokes when they broke. But even if it's a dumb
> idea, someone might have tried it in good faith--Starley or someone
> else might have tried it and the useless idea might have caught on.

You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.

> Here's the earliest patent that I've seen with tying and soldering.
> The explanation sounds like nonsense, but Palmer claims that he ties
> and solders for strength:

> "The crossing parts of the spokes k l may be connected with wire bound
> round the crossing parts and soldered. By arranging and connecting the
> spokes in the manner described a direct tensile strain is put on each
> spoke without any oblique strain."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=r9ZuAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=359809

You ought to be aware by now how patents can claim all sorts of things
that don't occur or exist. Typically Rolf claimed paired spoking
prevented shimmy. It doesn't as Damon Rinard showed with
instrrumentation of frequency and rate of exitation.

> Here's another earlypatent, in which Latta uses special clips
> _without_ soldering for connecting spokes:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=oChZAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA62&dq=377900

> Frustratingly, Latta doesn't explain why the hell he connects his
> spokes.

.... and who cares?

> Here's a patent by Warwick for a "double-sleeve" (44 in the diagrams)
> that joins the spokes (43 in the diagram) where they cross on a
> highwheeler:

> "For the purpose of increasing the strength of a wheel, either front
> or rear, by holding the spokes 43 in line, the double sleeve 44 is
> provided..."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZndnAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA20&dq=384946

> Like Latta, Warwick was a prolific and successful early inventor,
> working for a bicycle company. Neither Latta nor Warwick mention
> restraining broken spokes when they insist on lashing spokes
> together.

THis is getting awfully long. What are you pursuing here?
================================================== ===================

> Here's Peter Gendron, another famous early inventor (Gendron Bicycle
> Company), explaining that tying and soldering prevented rattling:

> "The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub
> in some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of
> causing the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each
> other... [yes, they all wrote like this]... the tension of the
> spokes being sufficient to completely effect this result, so that
> the spokes will not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same
> object is accomplished with the present construction of wheel by
> winding or tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small
> wire; but in practice this is very annoying in different ways--as,
> for instance, in cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1

> Of course, Latta, Warwick, and Gendron could all have been unaware
> of some early theory about restraining broken spokes.

> But until someone finds an earlier reference to restraining broken
> spokes, there's nothing but belief to support the theory that this
> was the original purpose of tying and soldering. So far, all the
> references are to strengthening wheels and stopping rattles.

> In other words, you're the "true believer"--you keep telling us that
> you vaguely remember reading somewhere that Starley tied and
> soldered spokes to restrain them when they broke.

> Let us know if you ever find the reference.

> I keep looking, but so far I haven't found _anything_ about _anyone_
> who said that he lashed spokes together for safety.

> But I keep finding clear contemporary explanations that spokes were
> tied and soldered for strength (probably wrong, but that was the
> theory) and to stop rattling (it worked).

> Here are a few more previously mentioned references.

> In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
> on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from
> an 1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:

> "Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to prvent
> rattles."

> ***

> In 1898, the author of "The Modern Bicycle and its accessories"
> mentions the pros and cons of tying and soldering as strength and
> explained that solderless clips might be better than heating the
> spokes. But he never mentions restraining spokes as the reason:

> "The majority of them [tangent-spoke wheel makers] tie their spokes
> to each other where they cross. There are a great many of the makers
> who do not tie them at all, there being some difference of opinion
> as to the benefit derived from this treatment."

> "Those in favor of tying spokes say that tying two or more [!]
> spokes together at the crossing some distance above the hub shortens
> the leverage from the rim and practically gives the wheel an
> additional hub; that they are also stiffer against side or lateral
> strain, and that the only good tangent spoke is one that is tied at
> the crossing with its mates. Those who are opposed to tying spokes
> say that tying them together makes them too rigid and inflexible
> [!], and that the process of wiring them and soldering them together
> has a tendency to crystallize the spokes at this point owing to the
> heat required to solder them. This part of the argument, however,
> has been met by by not wiring and soldering the spokes at the
> crossing, but by pinching on them at this point a metal clamp such
> as is used on the Humber wheel. The opponents of tying the spokes
> assert that the very stiffness and rigidness which the wheel
> possesses when the spokes are tied has a tendency to also
> crystallize them at the hub flanges as well as cause them to break
> [!]."

> http://books.google.com/books?id=1CRyfR7JclIC&printsec=titlepage#PPA69,M1

Jobst Brandt

Lou Holtman

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Carl Fogel writes:

snip

>
> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.

Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
must be getting old so have patient with him ;-). No one is tying and
soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.

Lou

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

On 09 Feb 2008 21:20:37 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Carl Fogel writes:
>
>
>>> Although the true believers on wreck.bike don't believe that tying
>>> (and soldering) spokes was invented by John Starley to prevent
>>> spokes from causing an endo by flailing around on high wheelers,
>>> the motorcycle folks know otherwise. To make up for that, Triumph
>>> made spoked wheels with spoke elbows unsupported for more than two
>>> diameters from the flange. These are classic spoke breakers, like
>>> the ones DT once made with longer elbows for easier spoke
>>> insertion.
>
> http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
>> The only contemporary sources that I can find _never_ mention tying
>> and soldering to restrain broken spokes.
>
>You didn't look hard enough. John Starley invented cross laced
>spoking for that purpose, high wheelers al being radially spoked
>before then:

Dear Jobst,

You didn't read hard enough.

I have found no contemporary references to tying and soldering tangent
spokes to restrain them for safety reasons.

In fact, you've asked me to look for them, since you can't find the
reference that you think that you remember reading decades ago.

It's silly to call people who point to the evidence "true believers"
because they don't take on belief your unsupported claim.

It's even sillier to argue that they aren't looking hard enough.

If you have a pre-1900 reference for tying and soldering tangent
spokes to restrain them in case they break, please share it with us.

No references that I can find mention that theory. They all talk about
strengthening the wheel and stopping rattles.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

jim beam

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

Lou Holtman wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Carl Fogel writes:
>
> snip
>
>>
>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
>
> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
> must be getting old so have patient with him ;-). No one is tying and
> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>

that's not true - i've seen them still in use around here in the san
francsico bay area. new wheels that is, not retro relics.

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:45:39 +0100, Lou Holtman
<lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:

>jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Carl Fogel writes:
>
>snip
>
>>
>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
>
>Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
>must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
>soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>
>Lou

Dear Lou,

Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubaix_bikes1/IMG_0003

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

>> Carl Fogel writes:
> snip

> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.

Lou Holtman wrote:
> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
> must be getting old so have patient with him ;-). No one is tying and
> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.

Would that it were so.
I just tied/soldered a pair of new wheels last week.

We politely suggest there's no advantage and we charge for our time but
"to people who like that sort of thing, it's the sort of thing they like".
No higher analysis from me except to note there are plenty of dumb
things on which people spend more money. Lots more.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jim beam

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

Werehatrack wrote:
> On 09 Feb 2008 19:35:26 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org may have
> said:
>
>> http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
> In the photos of the hub, the problem is obvious; they made the inner
> surface of the hub flat instead of using a wavy flange that would have
> properly spaced the all-inner spokes. (Note that they knew they had a
> problem; alternate spoke holes are counterbored to allow the
> doubly-inner spokes to sit inboard of the singly-inner ones...but in
> doing so, they insured that the spoke's bent end is supported only
> next to the head, and not near the elbow.

actually, i think you'll find that one spoke has a short elbow that is
snug[ish] against the flange, and its crossing neighbor has a long
elbow. and the short ones happen to be the ones that resist braking
force the most, so in both respects, fatigue is recognized as an issue
and mitigated to some extent.

now let's wait for our resident expert to deny or claim he knew about
this all along.

> This is a Mistake.) A wavy
> flange that supported the spokes properly could have made the concept
> work reasonably well, but it's still not a good idea.
>

Clive George

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

"Werehatrack" <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote in message
news:ev8sq3tvbkq677sldtj8l8ccfvllos8k0q@4ax.com...
> On 09 Feb 2008 19:35:26 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org may have
> said:
>
>>http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
> In the photos of the hub, the problem is obvious; they made the inner
> surface of the hub flat instead of using a wavy flange that would have
> properly spaced the all-inner spokes. (Note that they knew they had a
> problem; alternate spoke holes are counterbored to allow the
> doubly-inner spokes to sit inboard of the singly-inner ones...but in
> doing so, they insured that the spoke's bent end is supported only
> next to the head, and not near the elbow. This is a Mistake.) A wavy
> flange that supported the spokes properly could have made the concept
> work reasonably well, but it's still not a good idea.

I saw a shimano hub with something like that, only done with machining
rather than waving.

cheers,
clive

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org may have said:
>>> http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

> Werehatrack wrote:
>> In the photos of the hub, the problem is obvious; they made the inner
>> surface of the hub flat instead of using a wavy flange that would have
>> properly spaced the all-inner spokes. (Note that they knew they had a
>> problem; alternate spoke holes are counterbored to allow the
>> doubly-inner spokes to sit inboard of the singly-inner ones...but in
>> doing so, they insured that the spoke's bent end is supported only
>> next to the head, and not near the elbow.
-snip-

jim beam wrote:
> actually, i think you'll find that one spoke has a short elbow that is
> snug[ish] against the flange, and its crossing neighbor has a long
> elbow. and the short ones happen to be the ones that resist braking
> force the most, so in both respects, fatigue is recognized as an issue
> and mitigated to some extent.
> now let's wait for our resident expert to deny or claim he knew about
> this all along.

I see spokes which are identical; the countersinks for the heads have
alternate depth. I could be wrong on that but take another look.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Lou Holtman

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

jim beam wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> Carl Fogel writes:
>>
>> snip
>>
>>>
>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
>>
>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past.
>> He must be getting old so have patient with him ;-). No one is tying
>> and soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>>
>
> that's not true - i've seen them still in use around here in the san
> francsico bay area. new wheels that is, not retro relics.

Well, not on this side of the pond.

Lou

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:38 AM

Tom Sherman writes:

>> Although the true believers on wreck.bike don't believe that tying
>> (and soldering) spokes was invented by John Starley to prevent
>> spokes from causing an endo by flailing around on high wheelers,
>> the motorcycle folks know otherwise. To make up for that, Triumph
>> made spoked wheels with spoke elbows unsupported for more than two
>> diameters from the flange. These are classic spoke breakers, like
>> the ones DT once made with longer elbows for easier spoke
>> insertion.

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

> Did Jobst come across this discussion because his book is mentioned
> in it?

The guy with the good photos, "johnc" wrote to me about this problem
on Triumph Motorcycles. I was surprised to see John Starley come to
life again with tied spokes for the original reason. You'll note that
it is only there to retain broken spokes that otherwise can get shoved
into the inner tube and cause a sudden flat tire.

Jobst Brandt

Lou Holtman

01-04-1970, 02:39 AM

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:45:39 +0100, Lou Holtman
> <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
>
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> Carl Fogel writes:
>> snip
>>
>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
>> must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
>> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>>
>> Lou
>
> Dear Lou,
>
> Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
> effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubaix_bikes1/IMG_0003
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
caption say?

Lou

mtb Dad

01-04-1970, 02:39 AM

"You didn't look hard enough."

"You didn't read hard enough."

"are you trying to confess that you now understand, after all this
time,
that spoke breakage is a function of bending fatigue, not "residual
stress"? or are you just looking for attention? "

"now let's wait for our resident expert to deny or claim he knew
about
this all along. "

Now gents. Would Sheldon speak that way? ;-)

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:40 AM

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:27:24 +0100, Lou Holtman
<lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:

>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:45:39 +0100, Lou Holtman
>> <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>> Carl Fogel writes:
>>> snip
>>>
>>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
>>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
>>> must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
>>> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> Dear Lou,
>>
>> Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
>> effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:
>>
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubaix_bikes1/IMG_0003
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>
>You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
>soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
>caption say?
>
>Lou

Dear Lou,

The management does not endorse the opinions expressed by the
photographer in that link.

But the management might get pretty desperate, too, if it was rolling
over cobblestones at such speeds.

The management doesn't actually do much digging. It's more just filing
under favorites.

Here, for example, is a really desperate 8-cross wheel,
tied-and-soldered at the 7th cross, with the first crossing spoke
partly covering the crossed spoke's head at the hub:
http://i2.tinypic.com/5xq520p.jpg

Imagine lacing up that ~80-spoke 8-cross beast and then tying and
soldering all those crossings. It's no wonder that safety bicycles
with their itty-bitty wheels and their low spoke-counts wiped out the
highwheelers.

The 8-cross from another angle:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cbr_mp_his_trans_vb_518.jpg

A similar tangent laced hub from the same company with tying and
soldering:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cbr_mp_his_trans_vb_545.jpg

Here are some more typical highwheeler lacings, radial with what were
called nutted spokes, from the same site:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_amoore_mp_his_trans_vb_025.jpg

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_amoore_mp_his_trans_vb_007.jpg

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_amoore_mp_his_trans_vb_014.jpg

Radial lacing was quite popular until the highwheelers vanished.

Three radials and a fourth tangent with tied-and-soldered spokes on a
site with lots and lots of pictures of the details:

http://www.hochrad.info/hochradseite/hochradbasic/hochrad%20allerlei%20sammlung.htm#hocheins

Radial wheels were strong enough, tying and soldering probably made no
real difference, there were some patent issues about using tangent
spoke lacing, and radials were much simpler to build. Even with
spokecalc, I'd hate to try to calculate spoke lengths for a 54-inch
8-cross on the monster-wide hub and narrow rim of a highwheeler--it
must have been tricky with nothing but pencils and paper.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:40 AM

unforgiven99@juno.com

01-04-1970, 02:40 AM

On Feb 10, 4:03 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:27:24 +0100, Lou Holtman
>
>
>
> <lholremovet...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:45:39 +0100, Lou Holtman
> >> <lholremovet...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> >>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>>> Carl Fogel writes:
> >>> snip
>
> >>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
> >>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
> >>> must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
> >>> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>
> >>> Lou
>
> >> Dear Lou,
>
> >> Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
> >> effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:
>
> >>http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=r...
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> >You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
> >soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
> >caption say?
>
> >Lou
>
> Dear Lou,
>
> The management does not endorse the opinions expressed by the
> photographer in that link.
>
> But the management might get pretty desperate, too, if it was rolling
> over cobblestones at such speeds.
>
> The management doesn't actually do much digging. It's more just filing
> under favorites.
>
> Here, for example, is a really desperate 8-cross wheel,
> tied-and-soldered at the 7th cross, with the first crossing spoke
> partly covering the crossed spoke's head at the hub:
> http://i2.tinypic.com/5xq520p.jpg
>
> Imagine lacing up that ~80-spoke 8-cross beast and then tying and
> soldering all those crossings. It's no wonder that safety bicycles
> with their itty-bitty wheels and their low spoke-counts wiped out the
> highwheelers.
>
> The 8-cross from another angle:
>
> http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cb...
>
> A similar tangent laced hub from the same company with tying and
> soldering:
>
> http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cb...
>
> Here are some more typical highwheeler lacings, radial with what were
> called nutted spokes, from the same site:
>
> http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_am...
>
> http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_am...
>
> http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_am...
>
> Radial lacing was quite popular until the highwheelers vanished.
>
> Three radials and a fourth tangent with tied-and-soldered spokes on a
> site with lots and lots of pictures of the details:
>
> http://www.hochrad.info/hochradseite/hochradbasic/hochrad%20allerlei%...
>
> Radial wheels were strong enough, tying and soldering probably made no
> real difference, there were some patent issues about using tangent
> spoke lacing, and radials were much simpler to build. Even with
> spokecalc, I'd hate to try to calculate spoke lengths for a 54-inch
> 8-cross on the monster-wide hub and narrow rim of a highwheeler--it
> must have been tricky with nothing but pencils and paper.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
up before the rim got put on. Maybe it was easier to solder the ties
and call them a feature than to cut them off at the end. And the
lengths probably weren't calculated. It would be faster to just prop
up the hub and rim on the work bench and measure directly.

Ben C

01-04-1970, 02:40 AM

On 2008-02-10, unforgiven99@juno.com <unforgiven99@juno.com> wrote:
[...]
> Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
> the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
> I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
> being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
> up before the rim got put on.

Does anyone put all the spokes in before putting the rim on? I put the
spokes in one at a time and attach each one to the rim before putting
the next one.

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:40 AM

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 05:55:49 -0800 (PST), unforgiven99@juno.com wrote:

>Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
>the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
>I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
>being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
>up before the rim got put on. Maybe it was easier to solder the ties
>and call them a feature than to cut them off at the end. And the
>lengths probably weren't calculated. It would be faster to just prop
>up the hub and rim on the work bench and measure directly.

Dear U,

I'd love to find a pre-1900 wheel-building manuals like Sheldon's
page:
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Alas, there may not have been any how-to manuals for highwheelers. The
only material that seems to have survived is catalogs.

***

Rideable Bicycle Replicas has some old catalog reprints:
http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_catalog_reprints/index.htm

Here's a sample of from a Rudge highwheeler catalog:
http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_catalog_reprints/rudge_bike.htm

***

You can get $5 CDs from the Wheelmen with scans of old bicycle
catalogs, according to a post in the middle of this thread:
http://www.thewheelmen.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1412

But only four of the catalogs are pre-1890 and possibly late
highwheeler material.

***

The Pedaling History site has lots of books, but you have to go
through each section to find things:

http://dev1.boomersdomain.com/cgi-bin/store_pedalinghistory_2/index.html

Here's a shameless ad that I posted for "Bicycles of the Year 1877,"
which is dense text and diagrams of the 50 hottest rides at the
beginning of the the highwheeler era:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/8c32416698dc2ea5

It was well worth the $5.25 plus shipping.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:40 AM

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 05:55:49 -0800 (PST), unforgiven99@juno.com wrote:

>Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
>the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
>I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
>being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
>up before the rim got put on. Maybe it was easier to solder the ties
>and call them a feature than to cut them off at the end. And the
>lengths probably weren't calculated. It would be faster to just prop
>up the hub and rim on the work bench and measure directly.

Dear U,

I just stumbled across this pathetically familiar plea in the 1889
"English Mechanic and World of Science":

"Can anyone tell me of a speedy way of finding the exact length of
spokes required to build up a bicycle wheel? Also how to tap the same,
so that when screwed in hub [old-fashioned spokes screwed into the hub
instead of using an elbow] no thread will be visible outside? There
must be some other way than measuring from an approximate centre. I
have sometimes lost a week, and my temper as well, trying to find
length of spokes for 30in. wheels [30 to 34 inch wheels were common]
by this method." -- A.F. Shakespear, Dreseden

http://books.google.com/books?id=NHcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA335&dq=bicycle+spokes+solder&lr=&as_brr=0

He was first advised to make a full-size paper diagram and measure it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NHcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA335&dq=bicycle+spokes+solder&lr=&as_brr=0#PPA376

More detailed advice followed, from an experienced wheel-builder:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NHcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA335&dq=bicycle+spokes+solder&lr=&as_brr=0#PPA376,M1

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 02:41 AM

> unforgiven99@juno.com <unforgiven99@juno.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> Are there any contemporary wheel building manuals which say when in
>> the process these spokes were tied? From a manufacturing perspective,
>> I can almost see that 8 cross wheel being tied as the spokes were
>> being put into the hub to keep them from flopping around and tangling
>> up before the rim got put on.

Ben C wrote:
> Does anyone put all the spokes in before putting the rim on? I put the
> spokes in one at a time and attach each one to the rim before putting
> the next one.

I do too but the fastest builders (by a lot!) are the factory builders
who begin with a 'loaded' hub, all spokes in and gathered into two bunches.
Even among us one-spoke-at-a-time builders, some do all the inside
spokes on one flange first, other builders work in adjacent pairs. It
matters not; whichever style suits you, the result is identical.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

>>>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>>> Carl Fogel writes:
>>>> snip
>>>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.

>>> Lou Holtman <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
>>>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
>>>> must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
>>>> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.

>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>> Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
>>> effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:
>>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubaix_bikes1/IMG_0003

> Lou Holtman <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
>> You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
>> soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
>> caption say?

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Like Jobst, I don't see how tying and soldering works. There seems to
> be some recent disagreement among those who think that it does work.
> Apparently, it only works on the rear wheel:
> "The Phonak machines were to roll out on 36-spoke DT rims and hubs
> (front and rear, tied and soldered at the rear so that the wheel will
> remain true in the event of a spoke breakage) . . ."
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak
> In fact, the photo shows that it works on only one _side_ of the rear
> wheel:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak/L1000202
> Oops! It works on both sides of the front wheel:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00027
> Or on sprint bikes:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2002/tradeshows02/?id=eicma02/TMreport
> Or on spare bikes:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00019
> I wonder how many other bikes at Paris-Roubaix have their spokes
> lashed together?

Like complex, futzy, time-consuming tubular mounting (The Voodoo School
of tire mounting), tied spokes are likely more a team mechanic job
security program than a quest for durability.

Whatever the original (misanalyzed) reason, that tie-solder 'look' just
will not die:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/nahmbs083/Naked_fork

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

Andrew Muzi writes:

>>>>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.

>>>>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the
>>>>> past. He must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No
>>>>> one is tying and soldering spokes anymore today so there is
>>>>> nothing to discuss.

>>>> Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there
>>>> was no effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from
>>>> doing it:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubaix_bikes1/IMG_0003

>>> You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does
>>> tying and soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks
>>> like the caption say?

>> Like Jobst, I don't see how tying and soldering works. There seems
>> to be some recent disagreement among those who think that it does
>> work. Apparently, it only works on the rear wheel: "The Phonak
>> machines were to roll out on 36-spoke DT rims and hubs (front and
>> rear, tied and soldered at the rear so that the wheel will remain
>> true in the event of a spoke breakage)..."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak

>> In fact, the photo shows that it works on only one _side_ of the
>> rear wheel:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak/L1000202

>> Oops! It works on both sides of the front wheel:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00027

>> Or on sprint bikes:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2002/tradeshows02/?id=eicma02/TMreport

>> Or on spare bikes:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00019

>> I wonder how many other bikes at Paris-Roubaix have their spokes
>> lashed together?

> Like complex, futzy, time-consuming tubular mounting (The Voodoo
> School of tire mounting), tied spokes are likely more a team
> mechanic job security program than a quest for durability.

> Whatever the original (misanalyzed) reason, that tie-solder 'look'
> just will not die:

> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/nahmbs083/Naked_fork

as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

Jobst Brandt

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

In article <13r1e4ghv9q1n04@corp.supernews.com>,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> >>>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>>>> Carl Fogel writes:
> >>>> snip
> >>>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
>
> >>> Lou Holtman <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
> >>>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
> >>>> must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
> >>>> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>
> >> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >>> Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
> >>> effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:
> >>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubaix_bikes1/IMG_0003
>
> > Lou Holtman <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
> >> You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
> >> soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
> >> caption say?
>
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> > Like Jobst, I don't see how tying and soldering works. There seems to
> > be some recent disagreement among those who think that it does work.
> > Apparently, it only works on the rear wheel:
> > "The Phonak machines were to roll out on 36-spoke DT rims and hubs
> > (front and rear, tied and soldered at the rear so that the wheel will
> > remain true in the event of a spoke breakage) . . ."
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak
> > In fact, the photo shows that it works on only one _side_ of the rear
> > wheel:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak/L1000202
> > Oops! It works on both sides of the front wheel:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00027
> > Or on sprint bikes:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2002/tradeshows02/?id=eicma02/TMreport
> > Or on spare bikes:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2_gwdsc00019
> > I wonder how many other bikes at Paris-Roubaix have their spokes
> > lashed together?
>
> Like complex, futzy, time-consuming tubular mounting (The Voodoo School
> of tire mounting), tied spokes are likely more a team mechanic job
> security program than a quest for durability.
>
> Whatever the original (misanalyzed) reason, that tie-solder 'look' just
> will not die:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/nahmbs083/Naked_fork

After waxing, I tie and solder my chain.

--
Michael Press

Ryan Cousineau

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

In article <13r1e4ghv9q1n04@corp.supernews.com>,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> >>>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>>>> Carl Fogel writes:
> >>>> snip
> >>>>> You are trying to breath life into a dead animal. It's gone.
>
> >>> Lou Holtman <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
> >>>> Judging from the last 1000 posts from Carl he is living in the past. He
> >>>> must be getting old so have patience with him ;-). No one is tying and
> >>>> soldering spokes anymore today so there is nothing to discuss.
>
> >> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >>> Jobst's testing of tied and soldered spokes did show that there was no
> >>> effect, but that hasn't stopped people in Europe from doing it:
> >>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/roubaix06/index.php?id=roubai
> >>> x_bikes1/IMG_0003
>
> > Lou Holtman <lholremovethis@planet.nl> wrote:
> >> You are amazing Carl, digging up all this stuff ;-). How does tying and
> >> soldering help keep a wheel straight when a spoke breaks like the
> >> caption say?
>
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> > Like Jobst, I don't see how tying and soldering works. There seems to
> > be some recent disagreement among those who think that it does work.
> > Apparently, it only works on the rear wheel:
> > "The Phonak machines were to roll out on 36-spoke DT rims and hubs
> > (front and rear, tied and soldered at the rear so that the wheel will
> > remain true in the event of a spoke breakage) . . ."
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak
> > In fact, the photo shows that it works on only one _side_ of the rear
> > wheel:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/apr05/roubaix05/tech/?id=phonak/L1000
> > 202
> > Oops! It works on both sides of the front wheel:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2
> > _gwdsc00027
> > Or on sprint bikes:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2002/tradeshows02/?id=eicma02/TMreport
> > Or on spare bikes:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/front2
> > _gwdsc00019
> > I wonder how many other bikes at Paris-Roubaix have their spokes
> > lashed together?
>
> Like complex, futzy, time-consuming tubular mounting (The Voodoo School
> of tire mounting), tied spokes are likely more a team mechanic job
> security program than a quest for durability.
>
> Whatever the original (misanalyzed) reason, that tie-solder 'look' just
> will not die:
> <http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tech/shows/nahmbs08/nahmbs083/Naked_fork>

At least on that bicycle, I think it's legitimate to assert there's an
attempt to achieve a particular aesthetic.

A cynic might argue it's no more pointless than building that bike out
of steel,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

On 11 Feb 2008 21:38:13 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original purpose:
>
>http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

I'll ask a third time.

Will you please post a pre-1900 reference that supports your theory
about the original purpose of tying and soldering?

All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped spoke
rattling.

I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

still just me

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:10:19 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>
>All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped spoke
>rattling.

It also helps the sound of the baseball cards resonate much more
fully.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

Carl Fogel writes:

>> as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
>> purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

> I'll ask a third time.

> Will you please post a pre-1900 reference that supports your theory
> about the original purpose of tying and soldering?

I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"). I perused
parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
but found no reference to it at all.

> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
> spoke rattling.

Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
motorcycle web site is interesting.

> I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
> bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount of
history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an interpretation of
why and how things were done. How else could a book about the wire
spoked wheel be the first in print more than 100 years after the first
use of such wheels?

Jobst Brandt

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:28:57 GMT, still just me
<wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:10:19 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>
>>All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>>thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped spoke
>>rattling.
>
>It also helps the sound of the baseball cards resonate much more
>fully.

Dear SJM,

Please, let's use proper bicycle cards:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mando_gal/sets/72157601929168452/

The John Player cigarette cards in the Cycling series were mostly
painted from photographs of old bicycles, 1839-1939.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:47 AM

On 12 Feb 2008 01:12:21 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Carl Fogel writes:
>
>>> as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
>>> purpose:
>
> http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
>> I'll ask a third time.
>
>> Will you please post a pre-1900 reference that supports your theory
>> about the original purpose of tying and soldering?
>
>I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
>thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
>that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
>cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"). I perused
>parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
>but found no reference to it at all.
>
>> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
>> spoke rattling.
>
>Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
>interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
>what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
>motorcycle web site is interesting.
>
>> I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
>> bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.
>
>There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
>days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount of
>history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an interpretation of
>why and how things were done. How else could a book about the wire
>spoked wheel be the first in print more than 100 years after the first
>use of such wheels?
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.

I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
obvious.

There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.

I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.

There are plenty of explicit references to tying and soldering to
strengthen spokes before 1900.

As for the rattling that you claim is impossible . . .

In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from an
1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:

"Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to prvent
rattles."

I think that G. Donald Adams, who owns and rides such highwheelers,
knows more about them than you do.

I also think that Peter Gendron, whose Gendron Bicycle Company
manufactured highwheelers, knew more about them than you do. Gendron's
1890 patent, which I've quoted previously in this thread, just like
the Adams comment on rattling, explicitly states that the tying and
soldering prevented spoke rattling:

"The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub in
some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of causing
the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each other . . .
[yes, they all wrote like this] . . . the tension of the spokes being
sufficient to completely effect this result, so that the spokes will
not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same object is
accomplished with the present construction of wheel by winding or
tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small wire; but in
practice this is very annoying in different ways--as, for instance, in
cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1

Please stop claiming that you think that you remember something that
you can't find and sneering at actual contemporary references as
something for "true believers." It's as bad as arguing that your
personal recollections should be included on Wikipedia.

And please stop coming up with new claims that people like G. Donald
Adams and Peter Gendron can't hear spokes rattling. It only shows that
you aren't reading what's been posted in this thread.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:48 AM

Carl Fogel writes:

>>>> as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
>>>> purpose:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html

>>> I'll ask a third time. about the original purpose of tying and
>>> soldering?

>> I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
>> thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
>> that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
>> cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"). I perused
>> parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
>> but found no reference to it at all.

>>> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>>> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
>>> spoke rattling.

>> Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
>> interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't
>> visualize what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why
>> the motorcycle web site is interesting.

>>> I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
>>> bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.

>> There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
>> days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount
>> of history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an
>> interpretation of why and how things were done. How else could a
>> book about the wire spoked wheel be the first in print more than
>> 100 years after the first use of such wheels?

> There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.

I think that sentence is a non-sequitur. I am pointing out that there
are no technical books on such things and that the ones there are, are
about history or anecdotes, such as rattling spokes. You ought to
look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes can rattle if the
wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence, wire ties are a
cover-up, not a fix.

> I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
> obvious.

Well you can't find any references to spoke length calculations or
stress distribution in wheels either. Unless you want to question my
credibility about having read why James Starley went to cross laced
spoking on high wheelers, you might give the concept some thought. I
read it and recognized its value to the bicyclist of the day. The
triumph motorcycle pictures bring that to the present. I hope it is
apparent from the Triumph newsgroup that their spokes are tied for the
same reason, not for strength or rattling.

> There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.

> I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.

Well, I did and it is obvious, considering that tying spokes has no
other valid reason; something that was not believed until I wrote
about it.

> There are plenty of explicit references to tying and soldering to
> strengthen spokes before 1900.

Yes? And they are all BS, although in print. You are ready to
question practically anything you read here but not what was written
long ago and since disproven.

As I pointed out, Starley introduced crossed spoking in 1878 on high
wheelers that vanished as a mainline of bicycles shortly after. I'm
sure you can find that reference as well.

> As for the rattling that you claim is impossible...

> In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
> on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from
> an 1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:

> "Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to
> prevent rattles."

So, lots of BS has been written in bicycle journals. Just because he
got it into print doesn't make it so. Maybe you can explain how
spokes rattle, I can't... unless they don't remain tensioned in use.

> I think that G. Donald Adams, who owns and rides such highwheelers,
> knows more about them than you do.

You're getting close. ...pants on fire, etc.

> I also think that Peter Gendron, whose Gendron Bicycle Company
> manufactured highwheelers, knew more about them than you do.
> Gendron's 1890 patent, which I've quoted previously in this thread,
> just like the Adams comment on rattling, explicitly states that the
> tying and soldering prevented spoke rattling:

> "The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub
> in some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of
> causing the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each
> other... [yes, they all wrote like this]... the tension of the
> spokes being sufficient to completely effect this result, so that
> the spokes will not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same
> object is accomplished with the present construction of wheel by
> winding or tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small
> wire; but in practice this is very annoying in different ways--as,
> for instance, in cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."

http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1

> Please stop claiming that you think that you remember something that
> you can't find and sneering at actual contemporary references as
> something for "true believers." It's as bad as arguing that your
> personal recollections should be included on Wikipedia.

You shouldn't wonder how some Carl Fogel threads get going. Although
you don't use the rude epithets of some contributors, you make up for
it by direct attack on contributor's veracity. Just state your
beliefs on th matter and let it be. Your style is like a chameleon,
when you first appeared on this newsgroup, you wrote rebuttals to
peoples posts with rhetorical questions that questioned veracity,
never giving a direct opinion of your own. Then there was the
in-between times that vacillated and now it's writers veracity. It
sounds much like jb's alter ego at work.

> And please stop coming up with new claims that people like G. Donald
> Adams and Peter Gendron can't hear spokes rattling. It only shows
> that you aren't reading what's been posted in this thread.

I've read many misplaced beliefs in bicycle publications in the last
50 years and don't believe that some of their claims are as incredible
now as they were then. THey are what inspired me to write "the
Bicycle Wheel". Yes, I have heard spokes rattle, but they were were
so loose that some of the spoke nipples could be turned by hand. I
don't advise tying and soldering spoke crossings as a remedy for that.

> Cheers,

I see nothing cheery in what you wrote, but that sign-off is better
than smileys, or are the passÃ©?

Jobst Brandt

Peter Cole

01-04-1970, 02:48 AM

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2008 01:12:21 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>> Carl Fogel writes:
>>

>>> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>>> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
>>> spoke rattling.
>> Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
>> interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
>> what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
>> motorcycle web site is interesting.

> There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.
>
> I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
> obvious.
>

Looking at this collection of photographs I was hoping to see some
evidence of spoke tying. What struck me was was how virtually all of the
old high wheelers seemed to have radial spoking. From the photos it
looks like cross spoking didn't come into fashion until the advent of
the pneumatic tire.

I did see one photo which seemed to show clear evidence of tying, but it
was from 1976:

http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/photographs/1976tour/regviews/1976tour7.jpg

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:48 AM

On 12 Feb 2008 05:41:06 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Carl Fogel writes:

[snip]

>> There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.
>
>> I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.
>
>Well, I did . . .

[snip]

Dear Jobst,

Please share with us a link to whatever you found about a pre-1900
broken spoke causing a crash.

If you don't have a source, please quit being silly.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 02:48 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Carl Fogel writes:
>
>>>>> as well as where it still makes sense, performing its original
>>>>> purpose:
>
> http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/75065-broken-spoke.html
>
>>>> I'll ask a third time. about the original purpose of tying and
>>>> soldering?
>
>>> I'm sorry, I don't have that reference. At the time when I read it, I
>>> thought it so obvious and simple that I didn't save the location of
>>> that subject. All I can find now, is that James Starley introduced
>>> cross-laced spoking in 1878 (pp 95 "King of the Road"). I perused
>>> parts of that book to see if I could find the tying spokes together
>>> but found no reference to it at all.
>
>>>> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>>>> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
>>>> spoke rattling.
>
>>> Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
>>> interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't
>>> visualize what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why
>>> the motorcycle web site is interesting.
>
>>>> I can't find _any_ reference to your theory in technical books,
>>>> bicycling histories, or reminiscences by riders.
>
>>> There are practically no "technical" books on bicycles from those
>>> days. Most of what exists about it is myth and lore, or a recount
>>> of history. The historic ones leaving to the reader an
>>> interpretation of why and how things were done. How else could a
>>> book about the wire spoked wheel be the first in print more than
>>> 100 years after the first use of such wheels?
>
>> There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.
>
> I think that sentence is a non-sequitur. I am pointing out that there
> are no technical books on such things and that the ones there are, are
> about history or anecdotes, such as rattling spokes. You ought to
> look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes can rattle if the
> wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence, wire ties are a
> cover-up, not a fix.
>
>> I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
>> obvious.
>
> Well you can't find any references to spoke length calculations or
> stress distribution in wheels either. Unless you want to question my
> credibility about having read why James Starley went to cross laced
> spoking on high wheelers, you might give the concept some thought. I
> read it and recognized its value to the bicyclist of the day. The
> triumph motorcycle pictures bring that to the present. I hope it is
> apparent from the Triumph newsgroup that their spokes are tied for the
> same reason, not for strength or rattling.
>
>> There are plenty of references to crashes before 1900.
>
>> I can't find any that mention broken spokes causing crashes.
>
> Well, I did and it is obvious, considering that tying spokes has no
> other valid reason; something that was not believed until I wrote
> about it.
>
>> There are plenty of explicit references to tying and soldering to
>> strengthen spokes before 1900.
>
> Yes? And they are all BS, although in print. You are ready to
> question practically anything you read here but not what was written
> long ago and since disproven.
>
> As I pointed out, Starley introduced crossed spoking in 1878 on high
> wheelers that vanished as a mainline of bicycles shortly after. I'm
> sure you can find that reference as well.
>
>> As for the rattling that you claim is impossible...
>
>> In "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles," G. Donald Adams writes
>> on page 61 about how the 1887 New Light Mail Roadster differed from
>> an 1882 Columbia in various ways, one of which was:
>
>> "Tangent spokes were used and were tied where they crossed to
>> prevent rattles."
>
> So, lots of BS has been written in bicycle journals. Just because he
> got it into print doesn't make it so. Maybe you can explain how
> spokes rattle, I can't... unless they don't remain tensioned in use.
>
>> I think that G. Donald Adams, who owns and rides such highwheelers,
>> knows more about them than you do.
>
> You're getting close. ...pants on fire, etc.
>
>> I also think that Peter Gendron, whose Gendron Bicycle Company
>> manufactured highwheelers, knew more about them than you do.
>> Gendron's 1890 patent, which I've quoted previously in this thread,
>> just like the Adams comment on rattling, explicitly states that the
>> tying and soldering prevented spoke rattling:
>
>> "The advantage of this improvement [Gendron put spokes into the hub
>> in some odd way] consists in thereby accomplishing the result of
>> causing the two spokes at their point of crossing to bind each
>> other... [yes, they all wrote like this]... the tension of the
>> spokes being sufficient to completely effect this result, so that
>> the spokes will not rattle when the wheel is in motion. The same
>> object is accomplished with the present construction of wheel by
>> winding or tying the spokes at their point of crossing with small
>> wire; but in practice this is very annoying in different ways--as,
>> for instance, in cleaning the wheels or in replacing the spokes."
>
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=NIdaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=434146#PPP2,M1
>
>> Please stop claiming that you think that you remember something that
>> you can't find and sneering at actual contemporary references as
>> something for "true believers." It's as bad as arguing that your
>> personal recollections should be included on Wikipedia.
>
> You shouldn't wonder how some Carl Fogel threads get going. Although
> you don't use the rude epithets of some contributors, you make up for
> it by direct attack on contributor's veracity. Just state your
> beliefs on th matter and let it be. Your style is like a chameleon,
> when you first appeared on this newsgroup, you wrote rebuttals to
> peoples posts with rhetorical questions that questioned veracity,
> never giving a direct opinion of your own. Then there was the
> in-between times that vacillated and now it's writers veracity. It
> sounds much like jb's alter ego at work.
>
"Dear Carl" questioning someone's veracity? Say it ain't so!

>> And please stop coming up with new claims that people like G. Donald
>> Adams and Peter Gendron can't hear spokes rattling. It only shows
>> that you aren't reading what's been posted in this thread.
>
> I've read many misplaced beliefs in bicycle publications in the last
> 50 years and don't believe that some of their claims are as incredible
> now as they were then. THey are what inspired me to write "the
> Bicycle Wheel". Yes, I have heard spokes rattle, but they were were
> so loose that some of the spoke nipples could be turned by hand. I
> don't advise tying and soldering spoke crossings as a remedy for that.
>
>> Cheers,
>
> I see nothing cheery in what you wrote, but that sign-off is better
> than smileys, or are the[y] passÃ©?
>
The ending smiley emoticon on an otherwise unpleasant post was a Mark
Hickey specialty.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Ben C

01-04-1970, 02:48 AM

On 2008-02-12, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
[...]
> You ought to look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes can
> rattle if the wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence, wire
> ties are a cover-up, not a fix.

The discussion wasn't really about whether wheels can rattle or not,
just whether that's what people _thought_ would happen if they didn't
tie and solder.

But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.

What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?

I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be putting a
lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack occasionally while
riding along.

But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given change
in tension produces a greater length change than in a shorter spoke, and
there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for the spokes to rattle at. So
rattling seems quite a believable possibility.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:49 AM

Ben C? writes:

>> You ought to look at spoked wheels closely and explain how spokes
>> can rattle if the wheel is not falling apart. For that occurrence,
>> wire ties are a cover-up, not a fix.

> The discussion wasn't really about whether wheels can rattle or not,
> just whether that's what people _thought_ would happen if they
> didn't tie and solder.

Soldering wire ties came later on the "safety bicycle" on which the
hazard of failed spokes no longer existed and the wheel strengthening
ploy needed credibility.

> But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.

> What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?

> I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be
> putting a lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack
> occasionally while riding along.

> But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given
> change in tension produces a greater length change than in a shorter
> spoke, and there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for the spokes
> to rattle at. So rattling seems quite a believable possibility.

Hold the phone. High-wheelers were radially spoked until Starley
cross laced them in order to tie their spokes together. Therefore,
let's not place the cart before the horse.

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/wheel/001.html

Jobst Brandt

Ben C

01-04-1970, 02:49 AM

On 2008-02-12, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
> Ben C? writes:
[...]
>> But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.
>
>> What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?
>
>> I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be
>> putting a lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack
>> occasionally while riding along.
>
>> But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given
>> change in tension produces a greater length change than in a shorter
>> spoke, and there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for the spokes
>> to rattle at. So rattling seems quite a believable possibility.
>
> Hold the phone. High-wheelers were radially spoked until Starley
> cross laced them in order to tie their spokes together. Therefore,
> let's not place the cart before the horse.

You're starting to remind me of Tony Blair. When asked the perfectly
reasonable question, if they don't find any evidence of WMD would you be
up for invading Iraq anyway, he just blathered about the "irrelevance"
of "hypothetical" questions...

Hypothetically then, do you think the spokes might rattle on an un-tied
and un-soldered tangentially-spoked high-wheeler? Not a rhetorical
question, I really don't know.

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 02:49 AM

On 12 Feb 2008 15:50:09 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Soldering wire ties came later on the "safety bicycle" on which the
>hazard of failed spokes no longer existed and the wheel strengthening
>ploy needed credibility.

Dear Jobst,

Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? You seem more and
more confused about the chronology and the details.

I've posted plenty of pictures of tied and soldered highwheelers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 02:50 AM

Ben C? writes:

>>> But the question of actual rattling is just as interesting.

>>> What's the typical spoke tension in an 80-spoke highwheeler?

>>> I would have thought it would have to be quite low or you'd be
>>> putting a lot of hoop stress on the rim. So they might go slack
>>> occasionally while riding along.

>>> But even if they don't go slack, with such long spokes, a given
>>> change in tension produces a greater length change than in a
>>> shorter spoke, and there are also 7 or 8 possible crossings for
>>> the spokes to rattle at. So rattling seems quite a believable
>>> possibility.

>> Hold the phone. High-wheelers were radially spoked until Starley
>> cross laced them in order to tie their spokes together. Therefore,
>> let's not place the cart before the horse.

> You're starting to remind me of Tony Blair. When asked the perfectly
> reasonable question, if they don't find any evidence of WMD would
> you be up for invading Iraq anyway, he just blathered about the
> "irrelevance" of "hypothetical" questions...

I don't see what is hypothetical about what I wrote although your
question fits that description. "Can't we just get along?"

> Hypothetically then, do you think the spokes might rattle on an
> un-tied and un-soldered tangentially-spoked high-wheeler? Not a
> rhetorical question, I really don't know.

Knowing that these wheels were not capable of high tension, they
having so many (some with 72) spokes, cross lacing could make them
contact as I said about a loosely spoked wheel on which I heard spokes
rattle. Just the same, it seems that cause and effect are getting
mixed in that cross lacing spokes was not done for any structural
purpose as is shown by the many high-wheelers that used radial spokes.

That was made more clear by modern 700c rear wheels that were spoked
radially and worked well for the time they were in use. I suspect
flange failure would have been their downfall in the long run.

Jobst Brandt

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 03:04 AM

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:16:17 -0500, Peter Cole
<peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote:

>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 12 Feb 2008 01:12:21 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>
>>> Carl Fogel writes:
>>>
>
>>>> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>>>> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
>>>> spoke rattling.
>>> Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
>>> interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
>>> what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
>>> motorcycle web site is interesting.
>
>> There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.
>>
>> I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
>> obvious.
>>
>
>Looking at this collection of photographs I was hoping to see some
>evidence of spoke tying. What struck me was was how virtually all of the
>old high wheelers seemed to have radial spoking. From the photos it
>looks like cross spoking didn't come into fashion until the advent of
>the pneumatic tire.
>
>I did see one photo which seemed to show clear evidence of tying, but it
>was from 1976:
>
>http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/photographs/1976tour/regviews/1976tour7.jpg

Dear Peter,

Short answer . . .

Tying and soldering was common on tangent highwheelers before Dunlop
patented his pneumatic tire in late 1888.

The lovely old photos in the Wheelmen's highwheeler gallery aren't
good enough to show details like tying and soldering.

Yes, most highwheelers were radial, not tangent--that's the other
problem with the Wheelmen's highwheeler gallery. And most tangent
highwheelers appeared late, not early. Here's an 1888 tangent
highwheeler, tied and soldered:

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/transport/vintage_bikes/040930_cbr_mp_his_trans_vb_518.jpg

Long answer . . .

I'm working on a ridiculously long post about early bicycle wheels
with excessive details and links on such details.

The current problem is that I'm wallowing in hordes of early "English
Mechanic" annuals that for some reason don't show up directly in
Google Book searches, which show only 1878 and 1893 (some kind of
Google indexing problem).

One example of why it's taking so long is going through gallery after
gallery (the Wheelmen) to check details.

Here's the short current section on that:

18?? Two unknown highwheelers with tangent lacing from Wheelmen
highwheeler gallery:

http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/photographs/highwheel/regviews/highwheel17v.jpg

http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/photographs/highwheel/regviews/highwheel9v.jpg

I count 16 radial laced classic highwheelers in the two-page Wheelmen
highwheeler gallery, an 8-to-1 radial-to-tangent ratio that doesn't
include a few photos where you can't tell how a classic is laced.
Here's the site:

http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/photographs/highwheel/highwheel1.asp

Time to go back to lookinging into the vexing question of why the hell
they nickel-plated many highwheeler spokes out to the tied and
soldered (or brazed) crossing, but used enamel on the rest of the
spoke.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 03:04 AM

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:16:17 -0500, Peter Cole
<peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote:

>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 12 Feb 2008 01:12:21 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>
>>> Carl Fogel writes:
>>>
>
>>>> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>>>> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
>>>> spoke rattling.
>>> Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
>>> interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
>>> what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
>>> motorcycle web site is interesting.
>
>> There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.
>>
>> I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
>> obvious.
>>
>
>Looking at this collection of photographs I was hoping to see some
>evidence of spoke tying. What struck me was was how virtually all of the
>old high wheelers seemed to have radial spoking. From the photos it
>looks like cross spoking didn't come into fashion until the advent of
>the pneumatic tire.
>
>I did see one photo which seemed to show clear evidence of tying, but it
>was from 1976:
>
>http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/photographs/1976tour/regviews/1976tour7.jpg

Dear Peter,

Oops! Sorry, I noticed as soon as I posted my reply that it lacked the
comment on your photo above.

Yes, that photo looks at first as if the outer spokes are tied and
soldered.

But they probably aren't.

What looks like huge tying and soldering is probably just an optical
illusion. The two most-nearly-parallel spokes blur together in the
picture where they begin to meet.

The length of what looks like tying and soldering is much too great.
(They _could_ be tied and soldered, but the small bulges wouldn't be
visible in that particular picture.)

You have to squint at a lot of dreadful old photos before you get a
feel for the tiny little bulges at the crossing.

Here's a good example of how small the ties are. If you look at the
small top picture of the safety bicycle, you can't see any ties. The
next picture down is bigger, but you still can't see any ties. Keep
paging down, though, and the close-ups of the rear and front wheel
show the tying and soldering perfectly.

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=9768&weventid=1053&weventitemid=441768&wmaingroupid=0&wcatmastid=0&inventorytype=&minyear=1990&minmonth=1&minday=1&maxyear=2050&maxmonth=12&maxday=31&keyword=&lotsortorder=timeleftasc&pagenum=6&action=

Similarly, it's hard to tell radial from tangent lacing on giant
wheels. Even the slightest parallax can make a radial look like a
tangent at first glance.
Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Peter Cole

01-04-1970, 03:05 AM

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:16:17 -0500, Peter Cole
> <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>> On 12 Feb 2008 01:12:21 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Carl Fogel writes:
>>>>
>>>>> All the references that I've found and posted claim that people
>>>>> thought that tying and soldering strengthened wheels and stopped
>>>>> spoke rattling.
>>>> Well that's false because cross-laced spokes don't rattle either
>>>> interlaced or not. I think that comes from folks who didn't visualize
>>>> what occurred with long radial spoke failure. That's why the
>>>> motorcycle web site is interesting.
>>> There are plenty of references to tying and soldering before 1900.
>>>
>>> I can't find any that mention the safety theory that you think is
>>> obvious.
>>>
>> Looking at this collection of photographs I was hoping to see some
>> evidence of spoke tying. What struck me was was how virtually all of the
>> old high wheelers seemed to have radial spoking. From the photos it
>> looks like cross spoking didn't come into fashion until the advent of
>> the pneumatic tire.
>>
>> I did see one photo which seemed to show clear evidence of tying, but it
>> was from 1976:
>>
>> http://www.thewheelmen.org/sections/photographs/1976tour/regviews/1976tour7.jpg
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Oops! Sorry, I noticed as soon as I posted my reply that it lacked the
> comment on your photo above.
>
> Yes, that photo looks at first as if the outer spokes are tied and
> soldered.
>
> But they probably aren't.
>
> What looks like huge tying and soldering is probably just an optical
> illusion. The two most-nearly-parallel spokes blur together in the
> picture where they begin to meet.

Probably right, I thought the guy might have used twine.

>
> The length of what looks like tying and soldering is much too great.
> (They _could_ be tied and soldered, but the small bulges wouldn't be
> visible in that particular picture.)
>
> You have to squint at a lot of dreadful old photos before you get a
> feel for the tiny little bulges at the crossing.
>
> Here's a good example of how small the ties are. If you look at the
> small top picture of the safety bicycle, you can't see any ties. The
> next picture down is bigger, but you still can't see any ties. Keep
> paging down, though, and the close-ups of the rear and front wheel
> show the tying and soldering perfectly.
>
> http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=9768&weventid=1053&weventitemid=441768&wmaingroupid=0&wcatmastid=0&inventorytype=&minyear=1990&minmonth=1&minday=1&maxyear=2050&maxmonth=12&maxday=31&keyword=&lotsortorder=timeleftasc&pagenum=6&action=
>
> Similarly, it's hard to tell radial from tangent lacing on giant
> wheels. Even the slightest parallax can make a radial look like a
> tangent at first glance.
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Yes, I noticed the parallax issue.

Did you see this:
http://tinyurl.com/228zn6

That EBay bike has radial front & crossed rear -- is that typical?

or this:
http://tinyurl.com/2zfqhd

Old catalog on EBay, showing a cross laced ordinary & some radial
safeties. Funny how the sales numbers are given to prove ordinaries
"have not gone by" (1893), which more demonstrate that they in fact have.

I scanned through the Project Gutenberg "Around the World on a Bicycle"
(1887) text:

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/awbv110.txt

for references to spoke maintenance, but he had nothing to say other
that he carried spares.

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 03:05 AM

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:01:59 -0500, Peter Cole
<peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote:

>Did you see this:
>http://tinyurl.com/228zn6
>
>That EBay bike has radial front & crossed rear -- is that typical?
>
>or this:
>http://tinyurl.com/2zfqhd
>
>Old catalog on EBay, showing a cross laced ordinary & some radial
>safeties. Funny how the sales numbers are given to prove ordinaries
>"have not gone by" (1893), which more demonstrate that they in fact have.
>
>I scanned through the Project Gutenberg "Around the World on a Bicycle"
>(1887) text:
>
>http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/awbv110.txt
>
>for references to spoke maintenance, but he had nothing to say other
>that he carried spares.

Dear Peter,

The pictures that I've seen usually show the tiny rear wheel matching
the big front wheel--both tangent or both radial--so that's an
interesting picture.

One possibility is that the highwheeler had its front or rear wheel
replaced at some point with an unmatched version.

Since there was practically no stress on the tiny rear wheel, it would
be odd to beef it up with a stiffer tangent lacing while leaving the
front wheel radial.

But it could just be an example of who-cares. That is, there were lots
of early safeties that mixed radial and tangent wheels.

***

That Victor ad is one that I don't have--thanks!

It's even better than most because of the desperate marketing nonsense
that you point out.

A few years later, Victor was doing the same thing with safeties,
insisting that the bike boom wasn't collapsing and that they were
offering last years models cheap because--because--well, they closed
their doors the next year--here's a very long post with links to a big
Victor catalogue and cruel commentary:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/138678dcac07d8c3?&q=carl+victor+bike+boom

***

As for the tangent lacing on the Victor highwheeler in the ad, Victor
began selling tangent laced higwheelers around 1885, tied and soldered
from the get-go. I'll be including some scans about that from G.
Donald Abrams "Collecting & Restoring Antique Bicycles" when I get my
big early bike-wheel post off the ground. (Right now, I'm hunting with
considerable frustration for nephew-John-Starley's letter about how
the Rover was intended for hill-climbing, not safety.)

***

No, there's next to nothing about highwheeler spokes by Stevens in
"Around the World" (online) or in "Ten Thousand Miles on a Bicycle" by
"Karl Kron" ~1884 or "An American Cycling Odyssey" by Hayes in 1887.

Here's an old post with some long quotes and details out of the first
two books:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/5b7e0fb043b34b81

(The "spoke-vise" was just the old name for a spoke-wrench.)

Kron actually mentioned using twine and string (and wire), but he used
them to tie the wheel to the rim:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/930c7b462f8f2555

***

Oops! The sun is out, it's over 40F, time to escape on my bicycle.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel