Electra Amsterdam Royal8 - dynamo front hub? [Archive]

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:42 AM

Jay <jbollyn@gmail.com> wrote:

> OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week, even
> before I get it.
>
> My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
> generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
> any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
> route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
> would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> http://www.mikesbike.com/pages/amsterdam.htm
>
> Confused as usual - J.

You *were* confused, Jay. Now you have reduced the remaining questions
to one; that's progress!

Here's some descriptive comparisons from my use of similar bikes:

I have an AXA generator on my Gazelle Toulouse, with the disc brake.
The Toulouse was same as the Chamonix but with the disc/sidewall
generator replacing the Chamonix's hub dynamo/rollerbrake combo.
Perhaps Gazelle did it to keep the weight low, or perhaps to keep the
Toulouse price the same as the Chamonix. Electra may have similarly
confused motives with the Amsterdam.

The AXA sidewall generator on my Gazelle Toulouse does not make a
weaker light than the hub dynamo on my Trek L700 Navigator. You can
use either light as an only light to ride by on lit streets streets;
they also help you be seen. Neither light is strong enough to use as
an only light on strange unlit roads; they will just about do on
familiar unlit roads. On both the sidewall generator and the hub
dynamo you have very substantial part of their available light already
at only 6 or 7 mph; however, the light dies altogether when you stop
(you can get socalled standlights; the only useful ones have
capacitors and light up the main light at full power). I use 5W flood
and 10W spot battery lights in addition to the generator/dynamo
lights. I would strongly suggest that you transfer whatever battery
lights you have on your current bike, or buy good battery lights for
your new bike.

The choice between the sidewall generator/hub dynamo therefore has to
be made on another consideration.

It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
Amsterdam.

The point of a hub dynamo light is that it is always there, that it
gets you home when your batteries suddenly clock out, that it adds to
your visibility. The generator light ditto. But the hub dynamo has the
advantage that it works under all conditions. The question is, if you
will have hi-watt battery lights anyway, will the conditions in which
you ride (slush? ice?) so often make the sidewall generator unusable
as to justify spending extra money? (I have no experience of cycling
in such conditions, so I have no advice.)

A word about the lights that will come on your Amsterdam:

The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
enough for really adverse circumstances.

The rear light is probably either a Basta or a Spanninga. These are
good lights in their Dutch environment, where a car driver who hits a
cyclist is automatically held to be in the wrong unless there are
mitigating circumstances, but in Chicago (or anywhere outside the
Benelux) they are not bright and obvious enough. On my Trek I have the
best of that lot, the Spaninga Ultra. It's greatest feature is that
after a 50 hours it is almost as brightly visible as in the first
hour, and it has space for a pair of spare batteries inside. (The
Toulouse has a custom Gazelle light, made for them by Basta; it too is
automatic, it too is very economical, it too is not bright enough by
itself to make me feel secure.) I kept the Spanninga rear light on the
Trek because it is very lightweight and very economical and because it
switches itself on at dusk, but I promply backed it up with a Cateye
LD-1100 which is totally illegal in the Benelux and Germany...

****

So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
Dinotte rear light) at the back.

Thus, whether you should accept the sidewall generator or spend extra
on a hub dynamo/rollerbrake/wheel depends on your view of how many
days in the year riding conditions will make the sidewall generator
work unacceptably and thereby compromise a secondary system.

HTH.

Andre Jute
If you aren't paranoid, why are you a cyclist?

bob prohaska's usenet account

01-04-1970, 02:42 AM

Tosspot

01-04-1970, 02:42 AM

Jay wrote:
> OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week, even
> before I get it.
>
> My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
> generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
> any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
> route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
> would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> http://www.mikesbike.com/pages/amsterdam.htm
>
> Confused as usual - J.

For my tuppence worth, a hub dynamo outperform a bottle dynamo all the
time. It doesn't slip in the wet or ice, it doesn't wear out tyre
walls, it doesn't need switching on and off, it doesn't need keeping
straight, it doesn't need rubbers, it has less drag, it's quieter...

So, if you are intent on a dynamo system, a Shimano Nexus hub dynamo
with B+M Senso+Standlight front and rear. Fit and forget. Tried and
tested over two winters, I will never go back.

However, as others have pointed out, unless you plan on a fair bit of
night mileage, an LED light system must surely be the way forward for
simplicity and effectiveness.

Jasper Janssen

01-04-1970, 02:42 AM

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" <jbollyn@gmail.com> wrote:

>My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
>generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
>any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
>route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
>would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.

BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
aren't, I actually suspect.

Jasper

Martin Borsje

01-04-1970, 02:42 AM

Jay explained on 11-2-2008 :
> OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week, even
> before I get it.
>
> My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
> generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there any
> advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
> route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
> would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> http://www.mikesbike.com/pages/amsterdam.htm
>
> Confused as usual - J.

AXA is a very common dynamo in the Netherlands, as I speak.

If you don't ride too many times in snowy conditions it is a good
dynamo.

If you do ride often in snowy conditions or like the luxury of a hub
gen, please do buy one.

I fully concur with the recommendations on dynamo powered LED lighting,
front and rear.

Batteries always seem to be empty just when you need them most or when
a police officer is nearby....

Martin
Netherlands (190 km from Amsterdam)

Jay

01-04-1970, 02:42 AM

"landotter" <landotter@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f68b5582-3697-4268-8e07-c741d7d32e19@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 10, 5:28 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week,
>> even
>> before I get it.
>>
>> My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
>> generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
>> any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going
>> this
>> route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design,
>> they
>> would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> Dynamo:$10 Generator hub: $100
>
> In urban Chicago, just get a AA powered "be seen" LED. Use the dynamo
> occasionally to impress teh ladies.
>
> <whiiiiiiiir>
>
When my DiNotte headlight has gone out, I have used other headlights on a
temp basis. I think I need to see the oncoming pavement, not simply 'be
seen' by traffic. I am not trying to 'cheap out' on this. I am looking
forward at least a couple years, in this purchase.

At this time of year, in the morning, 5am in my neighborhood is really dark,
and there are no street lights in my suburb.

J.

landotter

01-04-1970, 02:43 AM

On Feb 10, 6:10 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "landotter" <landot...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f68b5582-3697-4268-8e07-c741d7d32e19@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Feb 10, 5:28 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week,
> >> even
> >> before I get it.
>
> >> My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
> >> generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
> >> any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going
> >> this
> >> route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design,
> >> they
> >> would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> > Dynamo:$10 Generator hub: $100
>
> > In urban Chicago, just get a AA powered "be seen" LED. Use the dynamo
> > occasionally to impress teh ladies.
>
> > <whiiiiiiiir>
>
> When my DiNotte headlight has gone out, I have used other headlights on a
> temp basis. I think I need to see the oncoming pavement, not simply 'be
> seen' by traffic. I am not trying to 'cheap out' on this. I am looking
> forward at least a couple years, in this purchase.
>
> At this time of year, in the morning, 5am in my neighborhood is really dark,
> and there are no street lights in my suburb.

Gotcha. I lived in Wicker Park and Ukrainian Village where the street
lights are great. Hey, ride over to Ricks Deli on Western at Chicago
Avenue and have some Vigo's Hunter's Cabbage for me.

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:43 AM

On Feb 11, 12:10*am, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "landotter" <landot...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f68b5582-3697-4268-8e07-c741d7d32e19@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Feb 10, 5:28 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week,
> >> even
> >> before I get it.
>
> >> My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
> >> generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
> >> any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going
> >> this
> >> route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design,
> >> they
> >> would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> > Dynamo:$10 Generator hub: $100
>
> > In urban Chicago, just get a AA powered "be seen" LED. Use the dynamo
> > occasionally to impress teh ladies.
>
> > <whiiiiiiiir>
>
> When my DiNotte headlight has gone out, I have used other headlights on a
> temp basis. I think I need to see the oncoming pavement, not simply 'be
> seen' by traffic. I am not trying to 'cheap out' on this. I am looking
> forward at least a couple years, in this purchase.

If the Electra Amdsterdam is at all decently screwed together (well-
made wheels, good level of standard Taiwanese headset and bottom
bracket) I think a "couple of years" would be an insult -- a bike like
that for that price should be a permanent utility. After all, the
frame won't rust, the Shimano parts are known-good, so what else is
there to go wrong?

There is no reason to believe Electra bikes are substandard in any
way; I've been looking into the CF Townie and have come across no
reports of poorly made bikes.

Andre Jute
11.5km today just for fun -- I'm declaring it the first day of the
spring

Clive George

01-04-1970, 02:43 AM

"Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4d557f4d-d9fb-4319-aca1-9df94a254c9d@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
> significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
> lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
> lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
> enough for really adverse circumstances.

Um, have you actually tried a decent set of dynamo lights?

I've used 3W halogen lamps as the sole source of front lighting for many
years, in all conditions. Others on this group have too - though I know you
have personal problems with them (the people, not the lights). SMS claims
they're unusable, but that's his theory, not real world experience.

More recently, LED lamps such as the B+M IQ fly have really raised the
game - the 3W halogen was good enough, the 2.4W LED in the IQ fly or is
stunning.

Of course one of the advantages of the LED lamps is their incredibly low
starting speed - the halogen lamps require that you be going a bit faster,
which might make them less suitable for people like you who ride at a less
'enthusiastic' speed (no offence intended by this remark - it's just that I
know in normal life you're riding quite a lot slower than many of the
historic proponents of dynamo lighting on this NG, and 6-8mph is getting
close to the starting speed for halogen lamps).

> So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
> front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
> matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
> Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
> supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
> LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
> Dinotte rear light) at the back.

That's SMS talk. See above - dynamo lights are entirely good enough for
primary lighting on their own, and with the new generation of LED lamps, are
even better.

(for rear, the choice of something like a D-toplight with standlight or a
battery light on its own is less clear-cut - I'd go for the former, because
I want something which is genuinely fit-and-forget, but battery ones aren't
too bad)

clive

Hank

01-04-1970, 02:43 AM

On Feb 10, 5:49 pm, Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
> hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
> Amsterdam.
>

FWIW, the least expensive dynohub I've seen is the Sturmey-Archer X-
FDD, which contains both a dynamo and a drum brake. I paid about $60
for the hub. I built the wheel for a shade under $100.

> The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
> significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
> lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
> lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
> enough for really adverse circumstances.

The BUMM IQ Fly is as bright as any battery-powered light that was
made prior to about three or four years ago. Spit out the Scharf Kool-
Aid.

Jay

01-04-1970, 02:43 AM

"Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4d557f4d-d9fb-4319-aca1-9df94a254c9d@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here's some descriptive comparisons from my use of similar bikes:
>
> I have an AXA generator on my Gazelle Toulouse, with the disc brake.
> The Toulouse was same as the Chamonix but with the disc/sidewall
> generator replacing the Chamonix's hub dynamo/rollerbrake combo.
> Perhaps Gazelle did it to keep the weight low, or perhaps to keep the
> Toulouse price the same as the Chamonix. Electra may have similarly
> confused motives with the Amsterdam.
>
> The AXA sidewall generator on my Gazelle Toulouse does not make a
> weaker light than the hub dynamo on my Trek L700 Navigator. You can
> use either light as an only light to ride by on lit streets streets;
> they also help you be seen. Neither light is strong enough to use as
> an only light on strange unlit roads; they will just about do on
> familiar unlit roads. On both the sidewall generator and the hub
> dynamo you have very substantial part of their available light already
> at only 6 or 7 mph; however, the light dies altogether when you stop
> (you can get socalled standlights; the only useful ones have
> capacitors and light up the main light at full power). I use 5W flood
> and 10W spot battery lights in addition to the generator/dynamo
> lights. I would strongly suggest that you transfer whatever battery
> lights you have on your current bike, or buy good battery lights for
> your new bike.
>
> The choice between the sidewall generator/hub dynamo therefore has to
> be made on another consideration.
>
> It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
> hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
> Amsterdam.
>
> The point of a hub dynamo light is that it is always there, that it
> gets you home when your batteries suddenly clock out, that it adds to
> your visibility. The generator light ditto. But the hub dynamo has the
> advantage that it works under all conditions. The question is, if you
> will have hi-watt battery lights anyway, will the conditions in which
> you ride (slush? ice?) so often make the sidewall generator unusable
> as to justify spending extra money? (I have no experience of cycling
> in such conditions, so I have no advice.)
>
> A word about the lights that will come on your Amsterdam:
>
> The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
> significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
> lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
> lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
> enough for really adverse circumstances.
>
> The rear light is probably either a Basta or a Spanninga. These are
> good lights in their Dutch environment, where a car driver who hits a
> cyclist is automatically held to be in the wrong unless there are
> mitigating circumstances, but in Chicago (or anywhere outside the
> Benelux) they are not bright and obvious enough. On my Trek I have the
> best of that lot, the Spaninga Ultra. It's greatest feature is that
> after a 50 hours it is almost as brightly visible as in the first
> hour, and it has space for a pair of spare batteries inside. (The
> Toulouse has a custom Gazelle light, made for them by Basta; it too is
> automatic, it too is very economical, it too is not bright enough by
> itself to make me feel secure.) I kept the Spanninga rear light on the
> Trek because it is very lightweight and very economical and because it
> switches itself on at dusk, but I promply backed it up with a Cateye
> LD-1100 which is totally illegal in the Benelux and Germany...
>
> ****
>
> So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
> front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
> matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
> Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
> supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
> LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
> Dinotte rear light) at the back.
>
> Thus, whether you should accept the sidewall generator or spend extra
> on a hub dynamo/rollerbrake/wheel depends on your view of how many
> days in the year riding conditions will make the sidewall generator
> work unacceptably and thereby compromise a secondary system.
>
> HTH.
>
> Andre Jute
> If you aren't paranoid, why are you a cyclist?
>
It sounds like I will just go with the Electra stock AXA sidewall generator
on this bike. I will see how it goes. I like DiNotte lights, and their
after-sale support. So I might buy another set for this new bike, if
necessary. I will still be riding my folder, but only in good weather. So
those lights are going to stay on the folder.

J.

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:44 AM

On Feb 11, 3:26*am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4d557f4d-d9fb-4319-aca1-9df94a254c9d@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
> > significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
> > lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
> > lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
> > enough for really adverse circumstances.
>
> Um, have you actually tried a decent set of dynamo lights?

You haven't read what I've written, have you?

> I've used 3W halogen lamps as the sole source of front lighting for many
> years, in all conditions. Others on this group have too - though I know you
> have personal problems with them (the people, not the lights).

Policies, not personalities, Clive. If someone with whom I have a
difference of opinion on another matter has good information on this
one and wants to share it with me, we start afresh.

>SMS claims
> they're unusable, but that's his theory, not real world experience.

Steven Scharf is a benefactor of cyclists just like the late Sheldon
Brown and Jobst Brandt and the late Ken Kifer. He has good information
and shares it generously. That doesn't mean that every one of his
conclusions or prejudices are valid for everyone else or should be
accepted by everyone.

I didn't say dynamo lights are unusable. Those are your words. As it
happens, I like modern dynamo lights for the purposes for which they
are suited. I also like hi-watt front lights and high intensity rear
blinkers for the purposes for which they are suited. Since my life is
clearly more valuable than those of the dynamo light fanatics, I
simply use both.

> More recently, LED lamps such as the B+M IQ fly have really raised the
> game - the 3W halogen was good enough, the 2.4W LED in the IQ fly or is
> stunning.

I agree, they are so much better than the old filamentary lamps, than
earlier generations of halogen lights, than even the earlier
generations of LED lights. So what? That they are better doesn't
automatically make them good enough, except for fashion victims. See
what I said above about the value of my life.

> Of course one of the advantages of the LED lamps is their incredibly low
> starting speed - the halogen lamps require that you be going a bit faster,
> which might make them less suitable for people like you who ride at a less
> 'enthusiastic' speed (no offence intended by this remark - it's just that I
> know in normal life you're riding quite a lot slower than many of the
> historic proponents of dynamo lighting on this NG, and 6-8mph is getting
> close to the starting speed for halogen lamps).

I have no idea where you get your "knowledge" from, Clive. Yesterday I
went for a ride. On my return along the same road my speed from the
turning point to my front door never fell below 30kph. So what is the
lowest possible average speed? Go on, it is simple arithmetic, you
should be able to manage.

> > So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
> > front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
> > matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
> > Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
> > supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
> > LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
> > Dinotte rear light) at the back.
>
> That's SMS talk.

So Steven is your bogeyman. So what?

>See above - dynamo lights are entirely good enough for
> primary lighting on their own, and with the new generation of LED lamps, are
> even better.

It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
sure.

> (for rear, the choice of something like a D-toplight with standlight or a
> battery light on its own is less clear-cut - I'd go for the former, because
> I want something which is genuinely fit-and-forget, but battery ones aren't
> too bad)

Don't give yourself a hernia bending over backwards to be reasonable,
Clive; it doesn't suit.

In any event, the D-Toplight isn't waterproof, a problem with many of
the BUMM lights. I didn't replace mine after it clocked out,
preferring the Spanninga Ultra on my Trek. But either one just gets
lost in light clutter in towns, and well short of cars' braking
distance on dark roads. A high intensity blinky is an essential
addition.

> clive

Andre Jute
Are you merely a consumer or are you a contributor?

Jay

01-04-1970, 02:44 AM

"bob prohaska's usenet account" <bp@www.zefox.net> wrote in message
news:EtPrj.10077$Rg1.2980@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Jay <jbollyn@gmail.com> wrote:
>> OK, guys, this is really it. I need to spend my tax return this week,
>> even
>> before I get it.
>>
>> My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
>> generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
>> any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going
>> this
>> route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design,
>> they
>> would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>>
> Hub dynamos are expensive, heavy and troublefree. If you're
> hillclimbing or poor, I'd avoid them. Otherwise, they're fine.
>
> Having said that, friction-drive dynamos aren't all that troublesome,
> weigh and cost a bunch less and are easily replaced if they quit.
> Just take care they're mounted correctly.
>
> bob prohaska
>
>
I was mainly wondering if, with my riding conditions, this friction-drive
dynamo would be a bad choice. Sounds like most people think it will be OK.
If Electa offered a hub dynamo as an option, I would go with it.

J.

Jay

01-04-1970, 02:44 AM

"Tosspot" <Frank.Leake@esa.int> wrote in message
news:fooq4a$48n$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>
> For my tuppence worth, a hub dynamo outperform a bottle dynamo all the
> time. It doesn't slip in the wet or ice, it doesn't wear out tyre walls,
> it doesn't need switching on and off, it doesn't need keeping straight, it
> doesn't need rubbers, it has less drag, it's quieter...
>
> So, if you are intent on a dynamo system, a Shimano Nexus hub dynamo with
> B+M Senso+Standlight front and rear. Fit and forget. Tried and tested
> over two winters, I will never go back.
>
> However, as others have pointed out, unless you plan on a fair bit of
> night mileage, an LED light system must surely be the way forward for
> simplicity and effectiveness.
>
I was certainly looking for comparisons between hub and bottle dynamos. But
I guess, I would need to have another wheel built. I might eventually do
that, but not right now.

J.

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:44 AM

On Feb 11, 7:48*am, Hank <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 5:49 pm, Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
> > hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
> > Amsterdam.
>
> FWIW, the least expensive dynohub I've seen is the Sturmey-Archer X-
> FDD, which contains both a dynamo and a drum brake. I paid about $60
> for the hub. I built the wheel for a shade under $100.
>
> > The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
> > significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
> > lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
> > lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
> > enough for really adverse circumstances.
>
> The BUMM IQ Fly is as bright as any battery-powered light that was
> made prior to about three or four years ago.

I agree, it is better. The question is whether it is good enough or if
there is something better still. For some people only the best is good
enough. It doesn't usually cost all that much more.

>Spit out the Scharf Kool-
> Aid

Steven has good information and shares it generously. That doesn't
mean one has to take sides. Both sorts of lights (modern dynamo lights
and high-watt battery lights) have advantages, so I just use both. If
you consider your life less valuable than mine, go ahead, use only one
kind of light.

Andre Jute
Calm, considered, rational.

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:45 AM

On Feb 11, 3:52*pm, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
> >generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
> >any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
> >route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
> >would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
> aren't, I actually suspect.
>
> Jasper

Nah, hub dynamos have been used on Dutch bikes of the most traditional
design for a good many years now; they have become standard, expected
by consumers. Check out the Gazelle site www.gazelle.nl and count the
number of bikes left with rim dynamos.

Andre Jute
Tomorrow's bicyclist -- kevlar armour-cladding, nanny-foam, monster
insurance

Clive George

01-04-1970, 02:45 AM

"Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:991b4342-e0dc-456a-a73f-127253501355@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 11, 3:26 am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Andre Jute" <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4d557f4d-d9fb-4319-aca1-9df94a254c9d@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
>> > significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
>> > lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
>> > lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
>> > enough for really adverse circumstances.
>>
>> Um, have you actually tried a decent set of dynamo lights?
>
>You haven't read what I've written, have you?

<sigh>

Given your incredibly low signal to noise ratio, it wouldn't be surprising
if I hadn't. But in this case, I have.

You're claiming a 3W halogen light isn't good enough. It is.

>> I've used 3W halogen lamps as the sole source of front lighting for many
>> years, in all conditions. Others on this group have too - though I know
>> you
>> have personal problems with them (the people, not the lights).
>
>Policies, not personalities, Clive. If someone with whom I have a
>difference of opinion on another matter has good information on this
>one and wants to share it with me, we start afresh.

Good.

>>SMS claims
>> they're unusable, but that's his theory, not real world experience.
>
>Steven Scharf is a benefactor of cyclists just like the late Sheldon
>Brown and Jobst Brandt and the late Ken Kifer. He has good information
>and shares it generously. That doesn't mean that every one of his
>conclusions or prejudices are valid for everyone else or should be
>accepted by everyone.

That's, erm, quite funny. Actually, it's a bit insulting to the people you
mention too. SMS talks a lot of crap.

>I didn't say dynamo lights are unusable. Those are your words.

"just aren't good enough". Means the same thing.

>As it happens, I like modern dynamo lights for the purposes for which they
>are suited.

You mean, as the primary light source, no need for backup? Good, so do I.

> I also like hi-watt front lights and high intensity rear
>blinkers for the purposes for which they are suited. Since my life is
>clearly more valuable than those of the dynamo light fanatics, I
>simply use both.

Experience says your worries are misplaced.

>> More recently, LED lamps such as the B+M IQ fly have really raised the
>> game - the 3W halogen was good enough, the 2.4W LED in the IQ fly or is
>> stunning.
>
>I agree, they are so much better than the old filamentary lamps, than
>earlier generations of halogen lights, than even the earlier
>generations of LED lights. So what? That they are better doesn't
>automatically make them good enough, except for fashion victims. See
>what I said above about the value of my life.

Experience says your worries are misplaced. And have you actually tried an
IQ fly or similar? Coz what you're writing doesn't make sense for anybody
who's tried one.

>> Of course one of the advantages of the LED lamps is their incredibly low
>> starting speed - the halogen lamps require that you be going a bit
>> faster,
>> which might make them less suitable for people like you who ride at a
>> less
>> 'enthusiastic' speed (no offence intended by this remark - it's just that
>> I
>> know in normal life you're riding quite a lot slower than many of the
>> historic proponents of dynamo lighting on this NG, and 6-8mph is getting
>> close to the starting speed for halogen lamps).
>
>I have no idea where you get your "knowledge" from, Clive. Yesterday I
>went for a ride. On my return along the same road my speed from the
>turning point to my front door never fell below 30kph. So what is the
>lowest possible average speed? Go on, it is simple arithmetic, you
>should be able to manage.

Let's assume a 11.5km ride, which is what you said elsewhere was a decent
ride for you. If it's an out and back in a day, the lowest possible average
speed is about 0.3mph. So what's your point?

>> > So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
>> > front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
>> > matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
>> > Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
>> > supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
>> > LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
>> > Dinotte rear light) at the back.
>>
>> That's SMS talk.
>
>So Steven is your bogeyman. So what?

So he talks crap.

>>See above - dynamo lights are entirely good enough for
>> primary lighting on their own, and with the new generation of LED lamps,
>> are
>> even better.
>
>It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
>being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
>Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
>for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
>sure.

Experience says otherwise.

>Don't give yourself a hernia bending over backwards to be reasonable,
>Clive; it doesn't suit.

Try not to pretend to be a reasonable human being, it doesn't suit. You're a
loser. And you're giving bad advice.

clive

Tom Sherman

01-04-1970, 02:45 AM

Andre Jute wrote:
> [...]
> It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
> being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
> Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
> for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
> sure.[...]

I like the lights Boeing uses on the landing gear. ;)

My ideal headlight for a bicycle would be a 55W low/80W high beam
halogen powered by a fuel cell.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Jasper Janssen

01-04-1970, 02:45 AM

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:25:09 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute <fiultra@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>On Feb 11, 3:52*pm, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
>> >generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
>> >any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
>> >route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
>> >would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>>
>> BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
>> aren't, I actually suspect.

>Nah, hub dynamos have been used on Dutch bikes of the most traditional
>design for a good many years now; they have become standard, expected
>by consumers. Check out the Gazelle site www.gazelle.nl and count the
>number of bikes left with rim dynamos.

The Traditional-Dutch-Bike still doesn't have them, and it's only in the
last 3-4 years that they're getting to be standard on higher end, new
models, though. Mainly the 30E Shimano model that made it feasible, since
that's only a very little up (retail price) from an Axa HR + front hub.
*And* you don't have to have frames with a sidewall dynamo tab welded on.

Jasper

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

You want to pick a fight, Clive, go pick it with someone else. I see
no reason to choose between dynamo lights and high-wattage battery
lights. My life is valuable; it demands the functionality of both. If
the choice of one or the other is a matter of religion to you, that's
your overreaction, nothing to do with me.

Andre Jute
Officially certified as a national treasure

On Feb 11, 6:45 pm, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:991b4342-e0dc-456a-a73f-127253501355@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 11, 3:26 am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> "Andre Jute" <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:4d557f4d-d9fb-4319-aca1-9df94a254c9d@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
> >> > significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
> >> > lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
> >> > lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
> >> > enough for really adverse circumstances.
>
> >> Um, have you actually tried a decent set of dynamo lights?
>
> >You haven't read what I've written, have you?
>
> <sigh>
>
> Given your incredibly low signal to noise ratio, it wouldn't be surprising
> if I hadn't. But in this case, I have.
>
> You're claiming a 3W halogen light isn't good enough. It is.
>
> >> I've used 3W halogen lamps as the sole source of front lighting for many
> >> years, in all conditions. Others on this group have too - though I know
> >> you
> >> have personal problems with them (the people, not the lights).
>
> >Policies, not personalities, Clive. If someone with whom I have a
> >difference of opinion on another matter has good information on this
> >one and wants to share it with me, we start afresh.
>
> Good.
>
> >>SMS claims
> >> they're unusable, but that's his theory, not real world experience.
>
> >Steven Scharf is a benefactor of cyclists just like the late Sheldon
> >Brown and Jobst Brandt and the late Ken Kifer. He has good information
> >and shares it generously. That doesn't mean that every one of his
> >conclusions or prejudices are valid for everyone else or should be
> >accepted by everyone.
>
> That's, erm, quite funny. Actually, it's a bit insulting to the people you
> mention too. SMS talks a lot of crap.
>
> >I didn't say dynamo lights are unusable. Those are your words.
>
> "just aren't good enough". Means the same thing.
>
> >As it happens, I like modern dynamo lights for the purposes for which they
> >are suited.
>
> You mean, as the primary light source, no need for backup? Good, so do I.
>
> > I also like hi-watt front lights and high intensity rear
> >blinkers for the purposes for which they are suited. Since my life is
> >clearly more valuable than those of the dynamo light fanatics, I
> >simply use both.
>
> Experience says your worries are misplaced.
>
> >> More recently, LED lamps such as the B+M IQ fly have really raised the
> >> game - the 3W halogen was good enough, the 2.4W LED in the IQ fly or is
> >> stunning.
>
> >I agree, they are so much better than the old filamentary lamps, than
> >earlier generations of halogen lights, than even the earlier
> >generations of LED lights. So what? That they are better doesn't
> >automatically make them good enough, except for fashion victims. See
> >what I said above about the value of my life.
>
> Experience says your worries are misplaced. And have you actually tried an
> IQ fly or similar? Coz what you're writing doesn't make sense for anybody
> who's tried one.
>
>
>
> >> Of course one of the advantages of the LED lamps is their incredibly low
> >> starting speed - the halogen lamps require that you be going a bit
> >> faster,
> >> which might make them less suitable for people like you who ride at a
> >> less
> >> 'enthusiastic' speed (no offence intended by this remark - it's just that
> >> I
> >> know in normal life you're riding quite a lot slower than many of the
> >> historic proponents of dynamo lighting on this NG, and 6-8mph is getting
> >> close to the starting speed for halogen lamps).
>
> >I have no idea where you get your "knowledge" from, Clive. Yesterday I
> >went for a ride. On my return along the same road my speed from the
> >turning point to my front door never fell below 30kph. So what is the
> >lowest possible average speed? Go on, it is simple arithmetic, you
> >should be able to manage.
>
> Let's assume a 11.5km ride, which is what you said elsewhere was a decent
> ride for you. If it's an out and back in a day, the lowest possible average
> speed is about 0.3mph. So what's your point?
>
> >> > So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
> >> > front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
> >> > matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
> >> > Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
> >> > supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
> >> > LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
> >> > Dinotte rear light) at the back.
>
> >> That's SMS talk.
>
> >So Steven is your bogeyman. So what?
>
> So he talks crap.
>
> >>See above - dynamo lights are entirely good enough for
> >> primary lighting on their own, and with the new generation of LED lamps,
> >> are
> >> even better.
>
> >It is a matter of opinion, Clive. I see three purposes for lighting:
> >being seen, seeing, earning respect that makes cars give you space.
> >Dynamo lights are marginal to adequate for the first two and useless
> >for the third. So I back them up with hi-watt battery lights and make
> >sure.
>
> Experience says otherwise.
>
> >Don't give yourself a hernia bending over backwards to be reasonable,
> >Clive; it doesn't suit.
>
> Try not to pretend to be a reasonable human being, it doesn't suit. You're a
> loser. And you're giving bad advice.
>
> clive

Jay

01-04-1970, 02:46 AM

"Martin Borsje" <geenspam@aub.nl> wrote in message
news:mn.5cc27d821613035b.76971@aub.nl...
>
> AXA is a very common dynamo in the Netherlands, as I speak.
>
> If you don't ride too many times in snowy conditions it is a good dynamo.
>
> If you do ride often in snowy conditions or like the luxury of a hub gen,
> please do buy one.
>
> I fully concur with the recommendations on dynamo powered LED lighting,
> front and rear.
>
> Batteries always seem to be empty just when you need them most or when a
> police officer is nearby....
>
> Martin
> Netherlands (190 km from Amsterdam)
>
>
I agree;

I think Andre's suggestion of redundant lighting systems is a good idea.
Good lights are a safety issue, and much cheaper than a hospital bill.

J.

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:47 AM

Meanwhile, Jay, what have you found out about Electra Amsterdam sizes
and stock availability?

Andre Jute
Groundwork

On Feb 11, 11:49*pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4d557f4d-d9fb-4319-aca1-9df94a254c9d@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Here's some descriptive comparisons from my use of similar bikes:
>
> > I have an AXA generator on my Gazelle Toulouse, with the disc brake.
> > The Toulouse was same as the Chamonix but with the disc/sidewall
> > generator replacing the Chamonix's hub dynamo/rollerbrake combo.
> > Perhaps Gazelle did it to keep the weight low, or perhaps to keep the
> > Toulouse price the same as the Chamonix. Electra may have similarly
> > confused motives with the Amsterdam.
>
> > The AXA sidewall generator on my Gazelle Toulouse does not make a
> > weaker light than the hub dynamo on my Trek L700 Navigator. *You can
> > use either light as an only light to ride by on lit streets streets;
> > they also help you be seen. Neither light is strong enough to use as
> > an only light on strange unlit roads; they will just about do on
> > familiar unlit roads. On both the sidewall generator and the hub
> > dynamo you have very substantial part of their available light already
> > at only 6 or 7 mph; however, the light dies altogether when you stop
> > (you can get socalled standlights; the only useful ones have
> > capacitors and light up the main light at full power). I use 5W flood
> > and 10W spot battery lights in addition to the generator/dynamo
> > lights. I would strongly suggest that you transfer whatever battery
> > lights you have on your current bike, or buy good battery lights for
> > your new bike.
>
> > The choice between the sidewall generator/hub dynamo therefore has to
> > be made on another consideration.
>
> > It will probably cost 100-150 bucks to get a front wheel with a dynamo
> > hub and rollerbrake built in to match the style and rear wheel of an
> > Amsterdam.
>
> > The point of a hub dynamo light is that it is always there, that it
> > gets you home when your batteries suddenly clock out, that it adds to
> > your visibility. The generator light ditto. But the hub dynamo has the
> > advantage that it works under all conditions. The question is, if you
> > will have hi-watt battery lights anyway, will the conditions in which
> > you ride (slush? ice?) so often make the sidewall generator unusable
> > as to justify spending extra money? (I have no experience of cycling
> > in such conditions, so I have no advice.)
>
> > A word about the lights that will come on your Amsterdam:
>
> > The Basta at the front is a probably a good light; to improve on it
> > significantly you will have to have the hub dynamo wheel, and buy BUMM
> > lights, which are pricey, and you will still need hi-watt battery
> > lights because 2.4 or 3W lights, even the BUMMs, just aren't good
> > enough for really adverse circumstances.
>
> > The rear light is probably either a Basta or a Spanninga. These are
> > good lights in their Dutch environment, where a car driver who hits a
> > cyclist is automatically held to be in the wrong unless there are
> > mitigating circumstances, but in Chicago (or anywhere outside the
> > Benelux) they are not bright and obvious enough. On my Trek I have the
> > best of that lot, the Spaninga Ultra. It's greatest feature is that
> > after a 50 hours it is almost as brightly visible as in the first
> > hour, and it has space for a pair of spare batteries inside. (The
> > Toulouse has a custom Gazelle light, made for them by Basta; it too is
> > automatic, it too is very economical, it too is not bright enough by
> > itself to make me feel secure.) I kept the Spanninga rear light on the
> > Trek because it is very lightweight and very economical and because it
> > switches itself on at dusk, but I promply backed it up with a Cateye
> > LD-1100 which is totally illegal in the Benelux and Germany...
>
> > ****
>
> > So, in summary, Dutch and German sidewall generator or hub dynamo
> > front lights, and battery rear lights (or dynamo rear lights for that
> > matter) are good enough for backup and an added layer of visibility.
> > Both should be viewed as permanent emergency installations and
> > supplemented with hi-watt battery lights at the front and a flashing
> > LED (the Cateye LD1100 is the best unless you want to lash out for a
> > Dinotte rear light) at the back.
>
> > Thus, whether you should accept the sidewall generator or spend extra
> > on a hub dynamo/rollerbrake/wheel depends on your view of how many
> > days in the year riding conditions will make the sidewall generator
> > work unacceptably and thereby compromise a secondary system.
>
> > HTH.
>
> > Andre Jute
> > If you aren't paranoid, why are you a cyclist?
>
> It sounds like I will just go with the Electra stock AXA sidewall generator
> on this bike. I will see how it goes. I like DiNotte lights, and their
> after-sale support. So I might buy another set for this new bike, if
> necessary. I will still be riding my folder, but only in good weather. So
> those lights are going to stay on the folder.
>
> J.

bob prohaska's usenet account

01-04-1970, 02:47 AM

Jay <jbollyn@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was mainly wondering if, with my riding conditions, this friction-drive
> dynamo would be a bad choice. Sounds like most people think it will be OK.
> If Electa offered a hub dynamo as an option, I would go with it.

I think much of the objection to friction drive dynamos stems from the
ease with which they become misaligned, which increases drive drag
to a noticeable degree. I have used both a Union and a Soubitez roller
unit (neither in their intended bottom-bracket location) and both worked
fine. One Union failed after about a year, and it was simple to replace.

Lately I've been riding a Breezer Uptown 8 with a Shimano hub generator
and B&M Lumotec lighting system. Very nice, but heavy and expensive.
If the hub dynamo ever fails, it's a wheel swap or a long downtime.

If you take care of generator alignment and wiring integrity, friction drive
will do just fine.

bob prohaska

Jay

01-04-1970, 02:47 AM

"Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:46667165-3b57-4833-bc85-71c972a79d9c@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Meanwhile, Jay, what have you found out about Electra Amsterdam sizes
and stock availability?

Andre Jute
Groundwork

>
I will probably call Rapid Transit Cycle in Chicago tomorrow, and place the
order.

I see RTC mentions Electra on their home page
http://www.rapidtransitcycles.com/ .

RTC's web page is mostly dead. They seem to do business strictly by phone or
in person.

J.

Clive George

01-04-1970, 02:47 AM

"Jay" <jbollyn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:YdudnS9Tft33eC3anZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..

> I think Andre's suggestion of redundant lighting systems is a good idea.
> Good lights are a safety issue, and much cheaper than a hospital bill.

You don't actually need redundant systems, just one which works. A hub
dynamo-based one will be the most reliable both in terms of
mechanical/electrical reliability, and in terms of human reliability - no
batteries to remember to charge, lights are permanently attached to the bike
so no forgetting to put them on.

Get a modern LED front lamp for it (you can guess which one I'm suggesting),
and you'll not have to worry about bulbs blowing (I'm assuming LEDs for the
back - been years since I've used a filament there), and anybody who's seen
the amount of light they put out, even in standlight mode, would realise
even the most paranoid person doesn't need a battery backup.

cheers,
clive

frkrygow@gmail.com

01-04-1970, 02:47 AM

On Feb 11, 7:16 pm, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think Andre's suggestion of redundant lighting systems is a good idea.
> Good lights are a safety issue, and much cheaper than a hospital bill.
>

In general, redundancy of night lighting is good. But the appropriate
degree of redundancy is roughly proportional to the unreliability of
the system.

For a hub dynamo, there are very few likely points of failure, no
matter what the riding conditions. You may burn out a bulb. Snagging
and breaking a wire or connection is a remote possibility, negligible
if you've routed the wires well. So carry a spare bulb. If you like,
you can carry a tiny coin-sized LED light to illuminate the bulb-
changing operation.

For a bottle dynamo, you can add a tiny chance of the unit getting
knocked out of alignment - but that's easy to adequately fix by just
bending it back. You can add a greater chance of it slipping in
slushy winter, deep mud, or perhaps rain. If you're able to avoid
those circumstances, just carry a spare bulb.

For anything battery powered, you've got to add the possibility of not
having the light with you because you thought you wouldn't need it; or
not having enough charge in the battery; or having the light removed
by a thief; or having the mounting system partially fail and refuse to
aim the light properly; or having the mounting system completely fail
and throw the unit on the street. I've either experienced or seen all
those failures, and more, which is why I rely on my generator
lights.

Regarding redundancy, I do have two taillights, one generator powered
and one battery powered. I also have reflectors.

And when I lead night rides, I carry a couple extra headlights for
redundancy. But they're for the folks who bring battery lights, not
for me. I've loaned them out many times.

- Frank Krygowski

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 02:59 AM

On Feb 14, 12:54*pm, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:25:09 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Feb 11, 3:52*pm, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:28:20 -0600, "Jay" <jbol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >My only remaining concern is the headlight system, which uses an AXA
> >> >generator. Would I be well advised to use a hub dynamo instead? Are there
> >> >any advantages to the AXA generator? Why in the world is Electra going this
> >> >route? I would think, since they seem to love simple minimalist design, they
> >> >would have chosen a hub dynamo for the headlight power.
>
> >> BEcause the Axa HR is a traditional Dutch Bike design and the hub dynamos
> >> aren't, I actually suspect.
> >Nah, hub dynamos have been used on Dutch bikes of the most traditional
> >design for a good many years now; they have become standard, expected
> >by consumers. Check out the Gazelle sitewww.gazelle.nland count the
> >number of bikes left with rim dynamos.
>
> The Traditional-Dutch-Bike still doesn't have them, and it's only in the
> last 3-4 years that they're getting to be standard on higher end, new
> models, though. Mainly the 30E Shimano model that made it feasible, since
> that's only a very little up (retail price) from an Axa HR + front hub.
> *And* you don't have to have frames with a sidewall dynamo tab welded on.
>
> Jasper

Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;
when I started looking at Dutch city bikes in the winter of 2003, hub
dynamos seemed to be the accepted standard already, though admittedly
I looked only at the top class of bikes. In particular, it seemed very
odd that the Gazelle Toulouse (which I bought for its disc brake -- I
wasn't yet a convert to roller brakes) was the only one of the top
Gazelle bikes with a sidewall generator; I thought it was either a
weight-saving device (ludicrous, considering that a Gazelle bike
starts hefty and is then trimmed up luxuriously without any reference
to weight) or to match the price of the all-rollerbrake companion
Chamonix, that is a simple marketing decision rather than a technical
one.

The odd thing about those early Shimano hub dynamos that took the OEM
market by storm is that they made more drag when they were switched
off than when switched on (go little Fogel, gofer Google, there's a
comparative study on the net, bring us the URL). When the light was
switched on it was nearly as good as the SON hub dynamo. (The
difference in drag was the equivalent about a foot rise in a mile,
IIRC.) Those early models are still available built into wheels very
cheaply on ebay.de and may well be worth buying if you have LED lights
that can be left on permanently. But for general purposes, and for the
big guys that seem to abound on RBT (or is it just Chalo's outsize
peronality that makes it seem so?) I think the newer Shimano models,
which are as good as the SON, might be more versatile (eg in the
rollerbrakes that can be used) and not all that much more expensive;
theoretically, with better seals, they will also last longer, but
that's theoretical, because no one has yet complained that the first
widely used Shimano hub dynamoes were poorly sealed -- the big
practical difference is that the newer ones have lower drag.

Andre Jute
Illuminator of unconsidered trifles

Clive George

01-04-1970, 03:00 AM

"Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5417c327-ec10-4286-9c11-3eccce83d4cd@b74g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;

Fitted my first one in 1997, so over 10 years ago.

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 03:00 AM

> "Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;

Clive George wrote:
> Fitted my first one in 1997, so over 10 years ago.

Yes, well over ten. My 1953 GH-6 Dynohub still works fine (if you prefer
a dull yellow Lucas-like glow).

The Sanyo Dynohubs on staff from early 1980s are quite bright. Newish
models are both bright and about 25% cheaper but that's not news any longer.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tosspot

01-04-1970, 03:00 AM

Clive George wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5417c327-ec10-4286-9c11-3eccce83d4cd@b74g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;
>
> Fitted my first one in 1997, so over 10 years ago.

AOL. I thought they were getting a bit common in the early 90's, that's
to say they weren't unusual. My tuppence worth.

carlfogel@comcast.net

01-04-1970, 03:00 AM

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:27:58 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

>> "Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;
>
>Clive George wrote:
>> Fitted my first one in 1997, so over 10 years ago.
>
>Yes, well over ten. My 1953 GH-6 Dynohub still works fine (if you prefer
>a dull yellow Lucas-like glow).
>
>The Sanyo Dynohubs on staff from early 1980s are quite bright. Newish
>models are both bright and about 25% cheaper but that's not news any longer.

Dear Andrew,

Humber advertised its "amazing patent Dynohub Lighting unit" with the
claim that it was "frictionless" in 1938:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Humber/Humber_ad1938.htm

Sheldon wrote about the Sturmey Archer Dynohub and included a 1952 ad:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dynohubs.html

There, the claim was modified to "mechanically frictionless."

S-A fans can read the short 50th anniversary Sturmey-Archer history
pamphlet at Sheldon's site by going here and clicking on next:
http://sheldonbrown.com/sa50/index.html

Caution: giant butterfly axle nuts and piratical eye-patches.

These amazing Sturmey-Archer mileage claims raised my eyebrows:

"In 1939 Tommy Godwin, using a Sturmey~Archer hub, broke the year's
mileage record with the amazing total of 75,065 miles. Not content
with this he went on to cover 100,000 miles in 499 days."
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/sa50/page7.html

That's 205.65 miles _every_ day for a year in 1939, and 200.40 miles
per day in 499 days.

Some details about Godwin's amazing mileage appear here:

http://www.phased.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11&Itemid=7

But my eyebrows disappear skyward again when I read that he maintained
a "strict vegetarian diet" throughout his feat and then "spent weeks
learning how to walk again" after he stopped.

Still, 200 miles a day for all but 8 days of a year is possible, so my
eyebrows have returned to a normal level:
http://miles4melanoma.com/hoffman.html

Freddie Hoffman never claimed to need to learn to walk again and the
noticeable spare tire mentioned in the article suggests a carnivorous
diet.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 03:00 AM

>>> "Andre Jute" <fiultra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Perhaps hub dynamos have been coming in for more than just 3-4 years;

>> Clive George wrote:
>>> Fitted my first one in 1997, so over 10 years ago.

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>> Yes, well over ten. My 1953 GH-6 Dynohub still works fine (if you prefer
>> a dull yellow Lucas-like glow).
>> The Sanyo Dynohubs on staff from early 1980s are quite bright. Newish
>> models are both bright and about 25% cheaper but that's not news any longer.

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Humber advertised its "amazing patent Dynohub Lighting unit" with the
> claim that it was "frictionless" in 1938:
>
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Humber/Humber_ad1938.htm
>
> Sheldon wrote about the Sturmey Archer Dynohub and included a 1952 ad:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dynohubs.html
>
> There, the claim was modified to "mechanically frictionless."
>
> S-A fans can read the short 50th anniversary Sturmey-Archer history
> pamphlet at Sheldon's site by going here and clicking on next:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/sa50/index.html
>
> Caution: giant butterfly axle nuts and piratical eye-patches.
>
> These amazing Sturmey-Archer mileage claims raised my eyebrows:
>
> "In 1939 Tommy Godwin, using a Sturmey~Archer hub, broke the year's
> mileage record with the amazing total of 75,065 miles. Not content
> with this he went on to cover 100,000 miles in 499 days."
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/sa50/page7.html
>
> That's 205.65 miles _every_ day for a year in 1939, and 200.40 miles
> per day in 499 days.
>
> Some details about Godwin's amazing mileage appear here:
>
> http://www.phased.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11&Itemid=7
>
> But my eyebrows disappear skyward again when I read that he maintained
> a "strict vegetarian diet" throughout his feat and then "spent weeks
> learning how to walk again" after he stopped.
>
> Still, 200 miles a day for all but 8 days of a year is possible, so my
> eyebrows have returned to a normal level:
> http://miles4melanoma.com/hoffman.html
>
> Freddie Hoffman never claimed to need to learn to walk again and the
> noticeable spare tire mentioned in the article suggests a carnivorous
> diet.

There was a rural electrical kit in the 30s with the SA early (12v, 8v)
Dynohubs, windmill to drive it through batteries and light bulbs for the
farmhouse (or milking shed). Probably not as bright as a Coleman lantern
I assume ...
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971