Wheel Truing Tutorial

[BicycleTutor]

I hope the group finds this week's wheel truing tutorial useful. I
tried to cover all the aspects of truing without running overtime. I'd
love to hear what you think...

http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/

[IK]

BicycleTutor <bicycletutor@gmail.com> wrote in news:f4f7f692-4543-46ad-
be4c-eaf4ebc84b23@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com:

> http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/

Inaccurate and illiterate.

>Pre-stressing spokes<

Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?

> Remember that on the rear wheel, the right side spokes have a lesser
angle and effect lateral movement less than the left. The left side spokes
have greater angle and effect radial alignment less than right. To
compensate for this difference, the right side spokes should be adjusted
two turns for every turn on left. <

Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and one-quarter?

Hopeless.....

[Michael Baldwin]

Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your "tutes"
are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.

One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
side versus right or left.

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

[datakoll]

yeah...coming here asking RBT for comment is off course useless and
demeaning but aside from that.

GARGLE FIRST. get some air in your lungs. breathe deep. rising falling
rising falling


does the Tutorial teach wheel truing. Not really. You speak, move your
hands, saying turn the nipples on the right to bring rim right, turn 4
(six six six but less with incerasing torque...)

I live in an asylum. Occasionally bringing the bike out onto the
"common area" for a rolling wheel true before heading out to DO
SOMETHING.

Other asylumites comment: "how does he do that, the bike shop...."
"He's done that for years..."

Ever try telling a rider, not a serious rider off course, the rear
wheel is out an inch, the tire is wearing away...then tutorial turn
tight right, loosen left, the rim goes, bend straightens?

whaddya get? a glassy look. synaptic seizure. like when I say ERD
ERD...

Without a graphic following a "survival in the artic" monologue,
graphic showing turns and rim movement singularly and symphonically,
in brilliant color. A graphic pierceing the synaptic seizure, you wind
up saying: this is a cat, this is a dog, and this is my mommy.
"That's" whose listening and "that's" what you're telling "them." A
reciprocal relationship.

As it is, a "survival" op, best to simplify the message and forget the
trimmings unless trimmings are meant to impress the Campy/carbon/
glacier crowd of materialist excess. oooooo lookit the shiny wheel?

Yeah, simply and explain turn right go right.... but there again a
graphic upside and downside.

INVEST IN THE SOFTWARE!

excuse me I'm gonna throw up....

[datakoll]

HI KIDS!
I'M AUTO DISSMARK (COSTUME-looks like?) AND I'M GONNA SHOW YOU HOW A
BICYCLE WHEEL IS STRAIGHTENED
First we need a bent bicycle wheel. KNOCKOUT REDHEAD BRINGS IN WHEEL.
Auto holdsup straight wheel and bends it into a pretzel. Short 15
second video of crazy kid jumping his bike, trashing the wheel. Kid
wipes his face out on chip and tar.
Auto, off course, has a room filled with wheels pre-tuned for each
segment of this disaster

Auto pulls out a 3' monkey wrench, walks over to a bent rim section 2'
wide with proportional spokes and...
graphics arrows move directionally as Auto torques, with handle
direction graphics...
followed by a cartoon of same (gotta repeat)

and I'll leave it to yawl to finish...

[datakoll]

porque

a must read:

http://books.google.com/books?id=D9cGAAAAYAAJ&dq=vocational+school+instruction+manuals&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0

[Michael Baldwin]

>From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
>Michael Baldwin wrote:
>Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice
>tuners to at least give it a try. If that's
>your main objective, your "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes
>but definitely on target.
>One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>side versus right or left.
>Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and
>right are unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy,
>it leads to acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This
>is part of the "sloppy English is good" thread on
>this newsgroup.
>Jobst Brandt

Alex, I thought my reply to your posting may draw the censorius
comments of Jobst Brandt and I apologize.

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

[datakoll]

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/002-5045544-5000040?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=CARTOON+COMPUTER+GRAPHICS&x=17&y=18

[daveornee]

BicycleTutor Wrote:
> I hope the group finds this week's wheel truing tutorial useful. I
> tried to cover all the aspects of truing without running overtime. I'd
> love to hear what you think...
>
> http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/
The lubing idea at the rim (or eyelet)/spoke interface is good, if
there isn't already fresh lube at those interfaces; but I think it is an
over simplification to expect no rotation of the tensioned spoke with or
without lube at the nipple/spoke thread interface. You need to address
how to deal with the spoke turning by some method of overshoot and
back-off (some use white-out or a Sharpie to mark untensioned spokes for
a reference)or removing tension from the area by rim manipulation so
wind-up doesn't happen.
Your approach to correcting for lateral or radial errors is too
generic. Plucking the spokes in the area of interest will let you know
which one(s) should be loosened or tightened to diminish the error and
come closer to getting spoke tension balance while improving the true.
Crossing spokes and spokes at 180 degrees are changed the most when any
tension change is made.
Side loading the wheel in steps with careful but significant force will
help stabilize the build as well as temporarily unload the down-side
spokes such that if there is any residual wind-up ... it will be
removed. Barnette's method of stabilization works and also does a good
job of stress relieving.
Using tone as only a relative indication of spoke tension as different
gauge spokes will have the same tone with significant difference in
tension.
Use of a truing stand like the Park TS-2 that looks like what you used
in the video is a good idea. The feelers on that stand can be
positioned to indicate both lateral and radial true at the same time for
viewing results and needs for adjustment.... as each any spoke nipple
adjustment will change true in both directions while also changing
tension.
I have considered putting out a video with similar objectives but each
time I write the scipt I decide it needs revising.


--
daveornee

[Ron George]

On Feb 28, 2:04 pm, BicycleTutor <bicycletu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I hope the group finds this week's wheel truing tutorial useful. I
> tried to cover all the aspects of truing without running overtime. I'd
> love to hear what you think...
>
> http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/

I was aware of your website and threw a link in my blog. Great work,
keep it up.


Ron
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

[A. Ramon]

> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?

After truing, the spokes will get stressed when you take the first
ride, and you'll have to re-adjust anyways. Therefore, you should pre-
stress them beforehand. Or you can call it 'stress-relieving' if you
wish... I think most people get the meaning.

> Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and one-quarter?

In this regard, each wheel is different, depending on how many
sprockets are on the rear cluster or freewheel. I've given the average
as there was not enough time to be more specific about every type of
wheel.

> Hopeless.....

You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.

[Bill Sornson]

IK (who???) wrote:
> BicycleTutor <bicycletutor@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:f4f7f692-4543-46ad-
> be4c-eaf4ebc84b23@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/
>
> Inaccurate and illiterate.
>
>> Pre-stressing spokes<
>
> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?

It's right under a heading entitled "Stress Relieving". Once a wheel is
true, isn't squeezing the spokes a way of "pre-stressing" them before riding
on them? Why are you picking such a tiny, insignificant nit?

>> Remember that on the rear wheel, the right side spokes have a lesser
> angle and effect lateral movement less than the left. The left side
> spokes have greater angle and effect radial alignment less than
> right. To compensate for this difference, the right side spokes
> should be adjusted two turns for every turn on left. <
>
> Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and one-quarter?
>
> Hopeless.....

So where's your page offering help to cyclists?

Bill "if you ain't got better then close yer yap" S.

[M-gineering]

IK wrote:
> BicycleTutor <bicycletutor@gmail.com> wrote in news:f4f7f692-4543-46ad-
> be4c-eaf4ebc84b23@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/
>
> Inaccurate and illiterate.
>
>> Pre-stressing spokes<
>
> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?
>
>> Remember that on the rear wheel, the right side spokes have a lesser
> angle and effect lateral movement less than the left. The left side spokes
> have greater angle and effect radial alignment less than right. To
> compensate for this difference, the right side spokes should be adjusted
> two turns for every turn on left. <
>
> Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and one-quarter?
>
> Hopeless.....

Really? I think it covers the basics pretty well, and should meet the
needs of a novice who wants to fix a wheel

Ofcourse if you want to discuss the finer points of 'the correct
nomenclature in scientific wheelbuilding' the lack of footnotes in
footnotes should make it clear this isn't for you
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Alexander Ramon wrote:

>> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?

> After truing, the spokes will get stressed when you take the first
> ride, and you'll have to re-adjust anyways. Therefore, you should
> pre-stress them beforehand. Or you can call it 'stress-relieving'
> if you wish... I think most people get the meaning.

What causes the stress when you first ride it, stress that wasn't
there before, when it was freshly built? I think you have an
incorrect visualization of stress in wheels. Bicycle wheels are pre
stressed structures, an effect that enables their spokes to withstand
compressive loads. Tensioning spokes is where pre-stressing occurs.

Stress relieving is performed to prevent spokes from fatigue failures
caused by load cycles with every rotation when in use. Reducing peak
stress in a freshly spoked wheel is an important operation to make
wheels durable.

>> Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and
one-quarter?

> In this regard, each wheel is different, depending on how many
> sprockets are on the rear cluster or freewheel. I've given the
> average as there was not enough time to be more specific about every
> type of wheel.

This can be described in a generic way and is so in "the Bicycle Wheel"
where the process is explained in plain language.

>> Hopeless.....

> You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
> person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.

I think that is generous criterion.

Jobst Brandt

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Alexander Ramon wrote:

>> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?

> After truing, the spokes will get stressed when you take the first
> ride, and you'll have to re-adjust anyways. Therefore, you should
> pre-stress them beforehand. Or you can call it 'stress-relieving'
> if you wish... I think most people get the meaning.

What causes the stress when you first ride it, stress that wasn't
there before, when it was freshly built? I think you have an
incorrect visualization of stress in wheels. Bicycle wheels are
pre-stressed structures, an effect that enables their spokes to
withstand compressive loads. Tensioning spokes is where pre-stressing
occurs.

Stress relieving is performed to prevent spokes from failuring in
fatigue during load cycles with each rotation in use. Reducing peak
stress after building a wheel is an important operation to make it
durable.

>> Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and
one-quarter?

> In this regard, each wheel is different, depending on how many
> sprockets are on the rear cluster or freewheel. I've given the
> average as there was not enough time to be more specific about every
> type of wheel.

This can be described in a generic way and is so in "the Bicycle Wheel"
where the process is explained in plain language.

>> Hopeless.....

> You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
> person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.

I think that is generous criterion.

Jobst Brandt

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Bill Sornson wrote:

http://bicycletutor.com/wheel-truing/

>> Inaccurate and illiterate.

>>> Pre-stressing spokes

>> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?

> It's right under a heading entitled "Stress Relieving". Once a
> wheel is true, isn't squeezing the spokes a way of "pre-stressing"
> them before riding on them? Why are you picking such a tiny,
> insignificant nit?

No. That isn't a means of pre-stressing spokes, unless you are
changing the structural meaning of pre-stressing. Stretching the
spokes by squeezing them in pairs momentarily increases their tension
to cause yielding at high stress points at the elbow and threads. It
does not change the tension in spokes, the tension that is the
pre-stress of a wheel.

I think the concept of pre-stressing has been here often, as in
pre-stressed concrete that has much in common with pre-stressed spokes,
except that concrete cannot support tension and spokes cannot support
compression without being pre-stressed.

Jobst Brandt

[BicycleTutor]

On Feb 28, 3:00 pm, MLB5...@webtv.net (Michael Baldwin) wrote:

> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
> side versus right or left.

Thanks Michael, great tip. I will be sure to use that terminology for
future tutorials.

Take care, Alex

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Michael Baldwin wrote:

> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.

> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
> side versus right or left.

Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
English is good" thread on this newsgroup.

Jobst Brandt

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

BicycleTutor <bicycletutor@gmail.com> wrote:

>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and
>> non-drive side versus right or left.

> Thanks Michael, great tip. I will be sure to use that terminology
> for future tutorials.

Arrrgh!

Jobst Brandt

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On 28 Feb 2008 23:33:31 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>Michael Baldwin wrote:
>
>> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
>> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
>> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.
>
>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>> side versus right or left.
>
>Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
>unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
>acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
>English is good" thread on this newsgroup.
>
>Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Other posters may not know that you're mistaken, so it's worth
explaining yet again.

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there are stunt bicycles
being sold today with the drive on the left side, not the right:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44

And left-hand drive bicycles were made in the past--here's the Ivel
safety with its front spoon brake on the right and its drive on the
non-traditional left side:

http://www.oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=fdbdown.asp?707&mod=&mak=Ivel

In any case, what matters is which side has the drive, not which side
it happens to be, so drive and non-drive are always accurate and
require no one to think about how a bare wheel would go into a frame.

Come to think of it, things would get rather tricky with a flip-flop
hub, wouldn't they? Drive and non-drive side change, just as left and
right do.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Tom Sherman]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Michael Baldwin wrote:
>
>> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
>> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
>> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.
>
>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>> side versus right or left.
>
> Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
> unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
> acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
> English is good" thread on this newsgroup.
>
Note that not ALL bicycles have the drive-train on the right hand side
(relative to the direction the rider faces).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[jim beam]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Alexander Ramon wrote:
>
>>> Whow? Pre-stressing? Not stress-relieving?
>
>> After truing, the spokes will get stressed when you take the first
>> ride, and you'll have to re-adjust anyways. Therefore, you should
>> pre-stress them beforehand. Or you can call it 'stress-relieving'
>> if you wish... I think most people get the meaning.
>
> What causes the stress when you first ride it, stress that wasn't
> there before, when it was freshly built? I think you have an
> incorrect visualization of stress in wheels. Bicycle wheels are pre
> stressed structures, an effect that enables their spokes to withstand
> compressive loads.

who cares about the spokes? spokes would be useless without rims, and
rims are the things that keep a wheel together, even with slack spokes.


> Tensioning spokes is where pre-stressing occurs.
>
> Stress relieving is performed to prevent spokes from fatigue failures
> caused by load cycles with every rotation when in use.

wot? no assertion that it reduces metallurgical "residual stress"?


> Reducing peak
> stress in a freshly spoked wheel is an important operation to make
> wheels durable.
>
>>> Really? Two turns? Not a turn and a half? Or one and
> one-quarter?
>
>> In this regard, each wheel is different, depending on how many
>> sprockets are on the rear cluster or freewheel. I've given the
>> average as there was not enough time to be more specific about every
>> type of wheel.
>
> This can be described in a generic way and is so in "the Bicycle Wheel"
> where the process is explained in plain language.

rubbish - that book contains a bunch of b.s. "materials theory" that is
not just "slightly wrong", it's outright misleading. b.s. is not "plain
language".



>
>>> Hopeless.....
>
>> You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
>> person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.
>
> I think that is generous criterion.
>

i think you need to correct the errors in your book if you want to keep
on trying to sell it.

[Tom Sherman]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...
> I think the concept of pre-stressing has been here often, as in
> pre-stressed concrete that has much in common with pre-stressed spokes,
> except that concrete cannot support tension and spokes cannot support
> compression without being pre-stressed.
>
That is not entirely true. When a compressive load is applied to the top
of a slab over a limited area, does it not result in tensile stresses in
the bottom portion of the slab below the "neutral axis"? And do concrete
pavement slabs generally fail from fracture due to tension in the bottom
of the slab from a single load, or from fatigue from many load cycles?
The answer should be obvious to anyone who know about pavement engineering.

Fiber reinforced concrete is not pre-stressed, and the fibers do
increase tensile strength (as evidenced by the fibers increasing the
rupture modulus for a given mix).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[datakoll]

LUBE HUB AND SPOKES WITH TEFLON WAX
is this seminal practice mentioned?

Cartoon graphics are the way to go, go to the heart of the matter.
Take off from Sheldon and friend's brilliant, simple, clear, concise,
visually stunning wheel build instructions.

[BicycleTutor]

> > You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
> > person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.
>
> I think that is generous criterion.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Why is that a 'generous criterion'?

[datakoll]

> I think that is generous criterion.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Jobst,

add an essentail visual action scene for a hypothetical spoke graphic
tutorial?

g.daniels

[Bill Sornson]

BicycleTutor wrote:
>>> You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
>>> person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.
>>
>> I think that is generous criterion.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
> Why is that a 'generous criterion'?

Because JB is snotty and pedantic.

HTH!

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Alex Ramon wrote:

>>> You might be missing the point... If this tutorial helps one single
>>> person true their own wheel, then it is far from hopeless.

>> I think that is generous criterion.

> Why is that a 'generous criterion'?

Either "far from hopeless" or single person's experience is being overrated.

Jobst Brandt

[Skip]

> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.

Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the bicycle
wheel.
You won't find a better "expert". Sheldon Brown probably was more diverse,
but I'm not sure he was more expert than Jobst in Jobst's field(s).

- Skip

[BicycleTutor]

On Feb 28, 4:29 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 28 Feb 2008 23:33:31 GMT, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Dear Jobst,
>
> Other posters may not know that you're mistaken, so it's worth
> explaining yet again.
>
> As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there are stunt bicycles
> being sold today with the drive on the left side, not the right:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44
>
> And left-hand drive bicycles were made in the past--here's the Ivel
> safety with its front spoon brake on the right and its drive on the
> non-traditional left side:
>
> http://www.oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=fdbdown.asp?707&mod=&mak=Ivel
>
> In any case, what matters is which side has the drive, not which side
> it happens to be, so drive and non-drive are always accurate and
> require no one to think about how a bare wheel would go into a frame.
>
> Come to think of it, things would get rather tricky with a flip-flop
> hub, wouldn't they? Drive and non-drive side change, just as left and
> right do.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Thanks Carl for the clear explanation. This was starting to get
confusing, but I'm now certain the DS/NDS way of explaining things
makes more sense.

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:49:29 -0800 (PST), BicycleTutor
<bicycletutor@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 28, 4:29 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 28 Feb 2008 23:33:31 GMT, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>> Dear Jobst,
>>
>> Other posters may not know that you're mistaken, so it's worth
>> explaining yet again.
>>
>> As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, there are stunt bicycles
>> being sold today with the drive on the left side, not the right:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/adfadf06467f4d44
>>
>> And left-hand drive bicycles were made in the past--here's the Ivel
>> safety with its front spoon brake on the right and its drive on the
>> non-traditional left side:
>>
>> http://www.oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=fdbdown.asp?707&mod=&mak=Ivel
>>
>> In any case, what matters is which side has the drive, not which side
>> it happens to be, so drive and non-drive are always accurate and
>> require no one to think about how a bare wheel would go into a frame.
>>
>> Come to think of it, things would get rather tricky with a flip-flop
>> hub, wouldn't they? Drive and non-drive side change, just as left and
>> right do.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>Thanks Carl for the clear explanation. This was starting to get
>confusing, but I'm now certain the DS/NDS way of explaining things
>makes more sense.

Dear Alex,

Of course, both sides of some early bicycles are drive-side.

The Lattimer treadle-to-chain-drive on both sides, which wasn't too
successful commercially:
http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg

The 10-speed twin-treadle-to-chain Levocyclette, which was much more
successful:
http://pie.touny.free.fr/vtt/vieux_velos/mec_levo.jpg
http://www.automag.be/IMG/jpg/Levocyclette.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/34nqih3.jpg

Here's the Wiki entry on left-hand drive BMX freestyle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_hub#BMX.2FSingle_Speed_Bicycles

It points out something else that I forgot. Crossover tandems put the
timing chain on the left side.

Which in turn reminds me that Howard and Rompelberg both used
crossover jackshafts in their land-speed records, with the front
sprocket on the left side, connected by jackshaft to the middle
sprocket on the right side.

Howard:
http://www.bikecult.com/works/chainring/jhoward.jpg

Rompelberg:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6tk537q.jpg

And, of course, motorcycles usually put the drive chain on the left
side, not the right.

This may be because the earliest "motorcycles" had a bicycle drive on
one side and a giant belt drive for the engine on the other:
http://www.nostalgic.net/pictures/1530.htm


But some old motorcycles had the bicycle-pedal _and_ engine drive on
the left side:
http://home.ama-cycle.org/membersonly/museum/images/b9/pump_600.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[datakoll]

the idea was, asking concrete to function as a tensile member is as
useless as asking a spoke for function as a compressive memember
without serious addtion

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Tom Sherman wrote:

>> ... I think the concept of pre-stressing has been here often, as
>> in pre-stressed concrete that has much in common with pre-stressed
>> spokes, except that concrete cannot support tension and spokes
>> cannot support compression without being pre-stressed.

> That is not entirely true. When a compressive load is applied to
> the top of a slab over a limited area, does it not result in tensile
> stresses in the bottom portion of the slab below the "neutral axis"?

Bridges and other structural beams have tensile preload rods internally
to insure that the entire beam is in compression even though most of
the tensile elements are in the foot of the cross section. The
condition you cite would cause cracking (failure) but structures are
not designed or loaded that way if they follow prudent procedures and
of course the building code.

> And do concrete pavement slabs generally fail from fracture due to
> tension in the bottom of the slab from a single load, or from
> fatigue from many load cycles? The answer should be obvious to
> anyone who know about pavement engineering.

They fail for insufficient reinforcement (steel) but they are not
pre-stressed in roads I have seen built other than bridges, and they
were pre-stressed.

> Fiber reinforced concrete is not pre-stressed, and the fibers do
> increase tensile strength (as evidenced by the fibers increasing the
> rupture modulus for a given mix).

That's a composite and I am not familiar with that use. It seems
highly difficult, considering the elastic modulus of stone and fibers
one might use. I suppose asbestos might be a candidate. I don't know.

Jobst Brandt

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
> the idea was, asking concrete to function as a tensile member is as
> useless as asking a spoke for function as a compressive memember
> without serious addtion

gene needs to be more pedantic. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[datakoll]

duh

[datakoll]

no seriously, what Jay wants to do is teach wheel trueing and he's
succeeding.
I try it here. I could just as well walk in front of a bus.

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> duh

Uh

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Tom Sherman wrote:

>>> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
>>> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
>>> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.

>>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>>> side versus right or left.

>> Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
>> unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
>> acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
>> English is good" thread on this newsgroup.

> Note that not ALL bicycles have the drive-train on the right hand side
> (relative to the direction the rider faces).

When someone is building a non-standard wheel, he'll know that it is
one and for that rider there are other problems. As we noted in
recent threads, contributors to this newsgroup knew where their chain
was and mounted and dismounted accordingly.

Pointing out that there are exceptions doesn't make jargon worthwhile.
How many road and MTB riders have left hand drive on this forum? I
doubt there are no more than two at best. Besides, such special wheels
may or may not have standard dish, such as BMX that generally uses
symmetric wheels.

You need not feel personally insulted about having used DS/NDS because
I find it less useful than right and left. Responses have such a
defensive ring these days, be that about proper English or whatever.

Jobst Brandt

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
> no seriously, what Jay wants to do is teach wheel trueing and he's
> succeeding.
> I try it here. I could just as well walk in front of a bus.

Perfectly harmless as long as the bus is stationary.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[jim beam]

Skip wrote:
>
>> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
>
> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the
> bicycle wheel.

actually, he's not. he writes /like/ he is, but if you know the facts,
you'll understand why he is in reality, just a bull****ter trying to
sell a book.


> You won't find a better "expert".

there's any number of qualified engineers that understand pre-stressed
structures better. and there's any number of materials people that
understand the difference between materials that strain age and those
that don't. jobst thinks that pre-stress increases strength - all it
does is borrow from one component to another - and that he can eliminate
fatigue from a material where there is no metallurgical mechanism that
allows it. that ain't no "expert".


> Sheldon Brown probably was more
> diverse, but I'm not sure he was more expert than Jobst in Jobst's
> field(s).

see above. sheldon was an artisan of considerable skill and experience.
jobst is just an ego seeking a b.s. outlet with the lowest possible
risk of detection. what better than an audience of non-engineers?

[Bill Sornson]

Skip wrote:
>> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
>
> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the
> bicycle wheel.
> You won't find a better "expert". Sheldon Brown probably was more
> diverse, but I'm not sure he was more expert than Jobst in Jobst's
> field(s).
> - Skip

Well, snipping his snotty, needless remark sure bolsters your case. (Hint:
it was not constructive or informative; it was merely a cheap shot*.)

*if he wrote more than the OP quoted, then perhaps I'm wrong. I plonked JB
long ago because he's often dishonest and even more often hypocritical.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Feb 28, 8:13*pm, "Skip" <S...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
>
> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the bicycle
> wheel.
> You won't find a better "expert".


The above proves that, indeed, "you can fool some of the people all of
the time".

[jim beam]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>>>> Alex, I think your tutorials in general, would inspire novice tuners
>>>> to at least give it a try. If that's your main objective, your
>>>> "tutes" are on target. No bullseyes but definitely on target.
>
>>>> One note. Whenever referencing wheels, I prefer drive and non-drive
>>>> side versus right or left.
>
>>> Oh? Why do you prefer obscure jargon when left and right are
>>> unambiguous. This use becomes worse because, being wordy, it leads to
>>> acronyms that are more obscure, DS/NDS. This is part of the "sloppy
>>> English is good" thread on this newsgroup.
>
>> Note that not ALL bicycles have the drive-train on the right hand side
>> (relative to the direction the rider faces).
>
> When someone is building a non-standard wheel, he'll know that it is
> one and for that rider there are other problems. As we noted in
> recent threads, contributors to this newsgroup knew where their chain
> was and mounted and dismounted accordingly.
>
> Pointing out that there are exceptions doesn't make jargon worthwhile.
> How many road and MTB riders have left hand drive on this forum? I
> doubt there are no more than two at best. Besides, such special wheels
> may or may not have standard dish, such as BMX that generally uses
> symmetric wheels.
>
> You need not feel personally insulted

how about when someone asserts they are able to cure metal fatigue, even
when it's untrue? being ignorant of the facts as to why you /can't/ do
something doesn't mean you /can/ do it.


> about having used DS/NDS because
> I find it less useful than right and left. Responses have such a
> defensive ring these days, be that about proper English or whatever.

not as defensive as someone that keeps trying to demean the discipline
of which they are so ignorant.

[Tom Sherman]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>>> ... I think the concept of pre-stressing has been here often, as
>>> in pre-stressed concrete that has much in common with pre-stressed
>>> spokes, except that concrete cannot support tension and spokes
>>> cannot support compression without being pre-stressed.
>
>> That is not entirely true. When a compressive load is applied to
>> the top of a slab over a limited area, does it not result in tensile
>> stresses in the bottom portion of the slab below the "neutral axis"?
>
> Bridges and other structural beams have tensile preload rods internally
> to insure that the entire beam is in compression even though most of
> the tensile elements are in the foot of the cross section.
>
Actually, post-tensioning is more common on larger structures, since
pre-stressing outside of items that can be made in a plant is not very
practical.

> The
> condition you cite would cause cracking (failure) but structures are
> not designed or loaded that way if they follow prudent procedures and
> of course the building code.
>
Specifically, ACI 318 "Building Code and Commentary".

>> And do concrete pavement slabs generally fail from fracture due to
>> tension in the bottom of the slab from a single load, or from
>> fatigue from many load cycles? The answer should be obvious to
>> anyone who know about pavement engineering.
>
> They fail for insufficient reinforcement (steel) but they are not
> pre-stressed in roads I have seen built other than bridges, and they
> were pre-stressed.
>
All plain reinforcement does for slabs is to hold the pieces together
AFTER the slab cracks. Portland cement concrete will fracture at a
strain where the reinforcing steel is far below yield, and the
reinforcement does little to reduce fatigue stress.

There are some post-tensioned on-grade pavements, but they are rare.
Post-tensioned bridge decks (and floor slabs in mid-rise and high-rise
buildings are common).

>> Fiber reinforced concrete is not pre-stressed, and the fibers do
>> increase tensile strength (as evidenced by the fibers increasing the
>> rupture modulus for a given mix).
>
> That's a composite and I am not familiar with that use. It seems
> highly difficult, considering the elastic modulus of stone and fibers
> one might use. I suppose asbestos might be a candidate. I don't know.
>
Fiber reinforced concrete floor slabs (in industrial applications) and
pavements are quite common. The fibers can be polymers or deformed
steel. The fibers make quite a difference in rupture modulus, which is
typically determined by breaking beam specimens in either third-point or
half-point loading.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[datakoll]

JB's style is of teaching methods.

illustration for graphic use a teaching tool.

nipple tighten nipple loosen...

rim shown in hand external circumference, zoom in, see nipple head
inside rim, say nipple tighten turned right , clockwise.

clockwise arrow appears around nipple.

turn rim viewing from hub position to inside rim circumference, zoom
toward nipple/spoke junction,

clockwise other side arrow duplicates self, you're now seeing two
arrows either side rim, second 200 degree arrow around nipple spoke
junction.

view changes to bent rim, of 6 nipple section centered. comment.
arrows appear, arrows turn, rim unbends (as a center turnout in a
later segment). flip rim over and show both sides arrows turning with
rim unbending.....

go on to do the same with Quad retruing, hub centering of the egg
shaped rim...

[datakoll]

On Feb 29, 3:48*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> JB's style is of teaching methods.
>
> illustration for graphic use a teaching tool.
>
> nipple tighten nipple loosen...
>
> rim shown in hand external circumference, zoom in, see nipple head
> inside rim, say nipple tighten turned right , clockwise.
>
> clockwise arrow appears around nipple.
>
> turn rim viewing from hub position to inside rim circumference, zoom
> toward nipple/spoke junction,
>
> clockwise other side arrow duplicates self, you're now seeing two
> arrows either side rim, second 200 degree arrow around nipple spoke
> junction.
>
> view changes to bent rim, of 6 nipple section centered. comment.
> arrows appear, arrows turn, rim unbends (as a center turnout in a
> later segment). flip rim over and show both sides arrows turning with
> rim unbending.....
>
> go on to do the same with Quad retruing, hub centering of the egg
> shaped rim...

[datakoll]

On Feb 29, 3:50*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 29, 3:48*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > JB's style is of teaching methods.
>
> > illustration for graphic use a teaching tool.
>
> > nipple tighten nipple loosen...
>
> > rim shown in hand external circumference, zoom in, see nipple head
> > inside rim, say nipple tighten turned right , clockwise.
>
> > clockwise arrow appears around nipple.
>
> > turn rim viewing from hub position to inside rim circumference, zoom
> > toward nipple/spoke junction,
>
> > clockwise other side arrow duplicates self, you're now seeing two
> > arrows either side rim, second 200 degree arrow around nipple spoke
> > junction.
>
> > view changes to bent rim, of 6 nipple section centered. comment.
> > arrows appear, arrows turn, rim unbends (as a center turnout in a
> > later segment). flip rim over and show both sides arrows turning with
> > rim unbending.....
>
> > go on to do the same with Quad retruing, hub centering of the egg
> > shaped rim...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

off course, a true line appears outboard bent rim section, and a close
up of rim squeezing over to true line.

if drawn then thought about, more examples and procedures surface,

[Tosspot]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Feb 28, 8:13 pm, "Skip" <S...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
>> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the bicycle
>> wheel.
>> You won't find a better "expert".
>
>
> The above proves that, indeed, "you can fool some of the people all of
> the time".

And looking in the mirror I'd agree with you.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Feb 29, 2:32*pm, Tosspot <Frank.Le...@esa.int> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Feb 28, 8:13 pm, "Skip" <S...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >>> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
> >> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the bicycle
> >> wheel.
> >> You won't find a better "expert".
>
> > The above proves that, indeed, "you can fool some of the people all of
> > the time".
>
> And looking in the mirror I'd agree with you.

Your mirror, your eyes, your visage. :-)

[Tosspot]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Feb 29, 2:32 pm, Tosspot <Frank.Le...@esa.int> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Feb 28, 8:13 pm, "Skip" <S...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Because JB is snotty and pedantic.
>>>> Yes, but Jobst also knows his stuff cold and is a true expert on the bicycle
>>>> wheel.
>>>> You won't find a better "expert".
>>> The above proves that, indeed, "you can fool some of the people all of
>>> the time".
>> And looking in the mirror I'd agree with you.
>
> Your mirror, your eyes, your visage. :-)

'Twas my point, fooling some of the people all of the time seems to be
trotted out by people trying to fool all of the people some of time,
which leads to suspect very little is believable in this world. Apart
from the fact that GWB was piloting the WTC planes by remote control
with Elvis acting as copilot. This is fact.

On a related note, I've had two driveside spokes fail in around 6,000
miles commuting. One failed at the knee, which I took to be an
undertensioned wheel (I built it), the second went a few millimetre
further up, shearing across the spoke around 3,000 miles after the
first. No signs of rubbing, or other defect, it looks like it just
broke. I'm sure these are up to full tension, but I don't have a
calibrated tensiometer to check.

Any ideas that could be checked without too much complexity? Wish I'd
kept it and photographed it now :(

[datakoll]

sure. after insertion then after tensioning, lube and fill spoke holes
and cover 4 flange sides with Finish Line dry lube