American Tobaccoe Trail (Wake Co Section)

[RickF]

Kathie took her hybrid off the trainer and rode the Wake County portion of the American Tobacco Trail for the first time in two years. We got there shortly after the trail opened at 8:00 on Saturday morning, and did a leisurly 11.5 miles from the White Oak Church Road trailhead south to the New Hill - Olive Chapel Road trailhead, then back north to Green Level Church Road, then back south to the starting point. The next time, we will go all the way up to the end of the improved portion at the Wake/Chatham county line, which will be a 13.4 mile route.

There were a lot more cyclists on the trail than there were the last time I was on it, and the surface was in better shape. Two years ago, there were several areas where the surface had washed out, and a few areas where the surface was soft. On Saturday, it was all in good shape. We did not see any equestrians or hoofprints in the trail surface this time, but there were several piles of horse biscuits, so it is obvious that the trail is still a popular spot for horseback riding.

Officially, for the safety of the equestrians and pedestrians who are using the trail, cyclists are not supposed to go faster than 10 mph, but we averaged 11.5. We were riding hybrids. Kathie had 35 mm tires, and mine were 38 mm. I would not attempt the trail on a road bike 23 mm tires, but in the condition the trail was in on Saturday, a road bike with 26 or 28 mm tires would have been fine.

[skiffrun]

What is this bit about the trail not opening until 8 am? I thought that trail went through areas accessible 24 / 7. Is some of it on park land?

I only know about north Raleigh and further north, ya' know.

[RickF]

The land for the trail right-of-way is owned by the NC Department of Transportation. Most of the Wake and Chatham county portions run through state and federal gamelands. Some of the trail in these counties and most of the Durham County portions are adjacent to private property.

I believe the rules are set by the county parks and recreation departments. For the Wake County portion, the trail is open from 8:00 AM until one hour before sunset seven days per week except Thanksgiving Day, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and New Year's Day, when the trail is closed. Other than the baracade across the entrance to the parking lots at the trailheads and occassional visits by game wardens, I am not sure how the closures are enforced.

The rules and etiquette for using the Wake County portion of the trail are published here (http://www.wakegov.com/NR/rdonlyres/F125884F-3CC7-40C0-9E86-A54144F502FB/0/ATTbrochure07.pdf).

There are plans to extend the trail south to the Harris Lake and Raven Rock parks, but no one knows how long it will be before that section is started. The priority now is to complete the two bridges in Chatham County and to build the overpass over I-40 to connect the southern Durham County portion to the remainder of the Durham County portion. Money for the I-40 bridge was appropriated in the 2006 Federal DOT budget, but Durham County has not yet approved the plans.

[piper_chuck]

Here's a site with additional info on the ATT: http://www.triangletrails.org/ATT.HTM

[skiffrun]

Closed on holidays!

Great! Close things on the days when there are potentially more users because the "common man" is not working that day. Beautiful!

Ownership of land:

shows how out of date I am. I thought the whole point of these rails-to-trails things was to preserve the RR right-of-way. The RRs didn't actually own most of the land the rails were on; they only had a perpetual right-of-way, or until they stopped using it.

If the RR were still using, I don't think they'd be limited in their hours.

And if conversion to some sort of mass transit, or inter-city transit ever happened, does anyone think that it would only run between 8 am and one hour before dark. If it did, it wouldn't be much useful. But come to think of it, that would fit with most gov't run things.

[Seppo]

The Wake County section is great for a mtn, hybrid, or cyclocross bike.

The main thing with the hours is some of the bigger parking lots and the bathrooms. Other than safety and a game warden who is having a bad day & try to meet his/her quota, being closed doesn't stop you from using the trail.

Though I have seen some guys shooting clay pigeons in an adjacent lot to the trail.

[RickF]

If the RR were still using it, they would have us arrested for tresspassing. There was a crackdown last year on illegally crossing the railroad track at Green Hope School Road between NC 55 and Carpenter-Upchurch Road. The Green Hope School Road crossing was closed at the time Green Hope High School was built and never reopened. Pedestrian students (and cyclists) would cross the tracks to get to the school (or to Carpenter-Upchurch Road) until a couple of kids got hit by cars on Carpenter-Upchurch Road. The Town of Cary and CSX started cracking down on crossing the tracks anywhere but at approved crossings.

I do not know about Durham County or Chatham County, but in Wake County, the ATT is treated the same as any other county park. From their perspective, the trail is a park that is 12 feet wide and 6.5 miles long with three parking lots and two toilet facilities.

[RickF]

Though I have seen some guys shooting clay pigeons in an adjacent lot to the trail.Hunters can use the trail to access game lands and they can cross the trail, but they are not supposed to shoot from the trail or across the trail. Shooting skeet adjacent to the trail is allowed, as long as they are firing parallel to the trail or away from the trail.

The other hazzard is golf balls from the driving range.

[skiffrun]

If the RR were still using it ... .
then the RR would be using 24/7/365.

that was my point.

[Michelle W]

Closed on holidays!

Great! Close things on the days when there are potentially more users because the "common man" is not working that day. Beautiful!

As someone in the recreation profession, please realize that we often work when others do not -- just so you have the opportunity to recreate during your leisure time. A lot goes on behind the scenes so a facility or program is ready to go when you show up. We are people with families and lives as well, and being closed 4 days a year allows us to spend time with their families.

In many cases, park and recreation professionals are government employees, but we do not work M-F 8-5. If we did, the parks might not ever be available to you. So before you complain about the 'common man', please take a moment to be thankful for all the times that we are working for your benefit!

[skiffrun]

As someone in the recreation profession, please realize that we often work when others do not -- just so you have the opportunity to recreate during your leisure time. A lot goes on behind the scenes so a facility or program is ready to go when you show up. We are people with families and lives as well, and being closed 4 days a year allows us to spend time with their families.

In many cases, park and recreation professionals are government employees, but we do not work M-F 8-5. If we did, the parks might not ever be available to you. So before you complain about the 'common man', please take a moment to be thankful for all the times that we are working for your benefit!
And perhaps you need to remember who pays for those facilities, and the salaries of those employed there. It is the taxpayer, i.e., "common man".

And I don't like it when funds are taken out of my pocket to be used for things that are arbitrarily made unavailable for use when I can use them.


And, again, I comment, that when rails-to-trails started, one of the key promotional concepts - to entice gov't interest - was that conversion to the trail would maintain the right-of-way for future public transport uses. Now they have become parks, with restricted access? Restricting access to only those periods convenient for gov't makes no sense to me.

[RickF]

And, again, I comment, that when rails-to-trails started, one of the key promotional concepts - to entice gov't interest - was that conversion to the trail would maintain the right-of-way for future public transport uses. Now they have become parks, with restricted access? Restricting access to only those periods convenient for gov't makes no sense to me.The right-of-way is 200 feet wide and is owned by the NC Department of Transportation, so nothing has changed there. If the DOT wants to use the right-of-way for future public transportation uses, it is still there and is still owned by the DOT. The ATT is 10 to 12 feet wide and while being owned by the DOT, it is managed by the county parks and recreation department. Did you not state in another post that they lock the gates to the parking lot at Blue Jay Point Park at 8:00 PM? I do not see how that is any different from locking the gates to the ATT.

I do know for a fact (because I have seen it) that some of that down time on the ATT is being used to shovel horse biscuits from the trail and to repair portions that have washed out.

The ATT is open on the holidays most condusive to the use of the trail (Memorial Day, Independance Day, and Labor Day) as well as all weekends.

By comparison, the state and federal gamelands are closed to hunting every Sunday (which is good for trail users who are not hunters, but bad for the hunters).

[skiffrun]

.... Did you not state in another post that they lock the gates to the parking lot at Blue Jay Point Park at 8:00 PM? I do not see how that is any different from locking the gates to the ATT.

....Well, it may be inconsistent on my part. But I never promised anyone consistency in my concepts. ;) And, I don't recall writing that I was fine with BJP being closed on holidays.

But I think there is a bit of a difference. E.g., the "Mountains to Sea" hiking trail that goes through BJP park is not closed down just 'cause the park proper is locked.

And the state owned "hunting lands" are not closed on Sundays or during the off-season. As you mentioned, they are open to everyone else then.

I remember sitting through a presentation of r-t-t many years ago, and in addition to future transit use, also pitched was the concept of eventual "sea-to-shining-sea" bike travel, without competing for space against autos. Traveling only between 8 am and dark, I guess. And not on holidays. Or any other time someone with a gov't ID decides.

Gosh, I almost sound like an anarchist. But no, just someone who believes in the last line of the Gettysburg Address. With the stress on the words that most historians now think Lincoln probably used. Not on "of", "by", and "for" which is what most of us grew up hearing / learning; although those are important. But on "people", "people", and "people".


And closing the whole thing to clean the "biscuits" or to fix some potholes? I guess one should expect that from NC & county gov'ts. After all, NC DOT refuses to give out any BR #3 maps right now because they haven't figured out a detour around one of the military bases. I love the logic: close down 200 miles because of 20 miles that need to be avoided.