Nostradamus effect of 1m heart recovery rate

[Andre Jute]

This was posted by Patrick Turner, known to Australian RBTers, to
rec.audio.tubes. I'm forwarding it as of general and important
interest to cyclists. -- Andre Jute

> Because I am giving this little OT talk about cycling,
> I'd like to include a report important for anyone to read regarding
> their likelyhood of heart problems.
>
> Norman Swan is a guy running a Health programme on ABC Radio National.
> he interviews Dr Micheal Lauer from the US........
>
>
>
> Norman Swan: Welcome to the program.
>
> Today, Vitamin D from one of the world's leading researchers in the
> field. In fact the person who found the active form of the vitamin, who
> with others has gone on to discover that a vitamin people thought was
> only important for bones might have a role in other parts of the body
> too, like the prostate or breast.
>
> And does sunblock affect your vitamin D status? You'll find out that
> later, too.
>
> Now I don't know about you but I'm always seeing joggers stopping to
> take their pulses and I'm never sure why; they probably have some
> esoteric knowledge about their fitness level which escapes me. But
> research published last week in the United States may one day give them
> a very good reason.
>
> In a six-year follow-up study, researchers showed that in a group of men
> and women aged around 57, the heart rate one minute after peak exercise
> strongly predicted their likelihood of dying in the following few years.
>
> It's a dramatic finding which could have an impact on the way people
> with serious coronary risk are screened or indeed whether you need to go
> on to have fancier tests like nuclear heart scans of angiography where
> your coronary blood vessels are catheterised and X-rayed.
>
> And if the findings are repeated outside the laboratory in real life,
> for example in pulse-taking joggers, it could have wide public health
> ramifications.
>
> The person who led the research team was Dr Michael Lauer, a
> cardiologist at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
>
> Michael Lauer: We looked at something very simple; we looked at the
> heart rate at the end of exercise, in people undergoing exercise
> testing, and then we looked at their heart rate one minute after they
> finished exercise. We took the difference between the heart rate at peak
> exercise and the heart rate one minute later, and we measured the heart
> rate recovery. We followed 2,400 patients for about six years, during
> which time 213 of them died. And what we found was that this change in
> heart rate during the first minute after exercise was an extremely
> powerful predictor of mortality, in fact it was the most powerful
> predictor of mortality that we've looked at; it was a more powerful
> predictor of mortality than nuclear tests, which look at blood flow
> abnormality to the heart, and it was a much more powerful predictor of
> mortality than the electrocardiogram we physically looked at during
> exercise.
>
> Norman Swan: Or during the stress test. So give me an idea of peak
> exercise in the stress test; how far do you take people in the stress
> test to get to this peak level?
>
> Michael Lauer: Well typically we will exercise people for about 8-12
> minutes, that's how long it usually takes to get somebody going very
> quickly and getting them to the point of maximal exhaustion. Let's say
> for a typical 50-year-old man, you'd expect the heart rate to rise from
> about 70 at rest to about 170 at peak exercise. And then what we'd like
> to see is the heart rate fall by at least 20 beats per minute during
> that first minute after exercise. That would take us down to 150. People
> with an abnormal heart rate recovery, the heart rate only falls by a
> little bit during that first minute after exercise. They were the ones
> who were at really high risk for subsequent death.
>
> Norman Swan: I think in the paper you defined the heart beat reduction
> as 12 beats per minute or less.
>
> Michael Lauer: Twelve beats a minute, that's correct.
>
> Norman Swan: As a reduction. Can you apply this knowledge, or is there
> any other research which suggests if you go for your average jog,
> measure your pulse at the end of it and your pulse a minute later,
> that's got any measure worth considering here?
>
> Michael Lauer: That's a very good question, because an average jog
> typically is not maximal exercise. We are looking at people who
> underwent some maximal exercise, and we're going to look at that as
> well. My guess is that it will work, but that's something that will
> require some further research.
>
> Norman Swan: What is it about the heart, what is it about the
> cardiovascular system that you're measuring here? Is it some sort of
> holistic measure that you can't pin it down to one thing, in other words
> you're getting a kind of global snapshot of the health of the
> cardiovascular system, or is it something specific?
>
> Michael Lauer: What we're actually measuring is something called the
> autonomic nervous system, that part of the nervous system that regulates
> heart rate and blood pressure and breathing. It's been known for a long
> time that abnormalities of the autonomic nervous system are correlated
> with death risk, but the problem is that the way in which these
> abnormalities are measured are very difficult. They require
> sophisticated equipment and they require the kind of tests which simply
> have not entered the realm of normal clinical practice. What we find is
> that these very, very simple measures that are obtained as part of
> regular routine exercise testing deflect what happens to the autonomic
> nervous system and provides us with just as powerful predictors of risk
> of death.
>
> Norman Swan: So what you're saying is you're not finding necessarily
> blocked coronary arteries; in other words you couldn't replace the
> stress test or some of these nuclear scans with this simple test,
> because it's not picking up a blocked artery which then you can go on
> and do an angioplasty on.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well we may very well; we are looking at something
> different than blocked coronary arteries. But what we can say is this:
> people have a normal heart rate recovery are at extremely low risk, and
> because they are at extremely low risk, it makes a lot more sense to
> manage them conservatively, and not project them to essentially risky
> procedures. If you know that somebody has a death risk of less than 1%
> per year then it really doesn't make very much sense to refer them for a
> procedure which carries with it a 1%-2% chance of death within 30 days.
>
> Norman Swan: So in other words, it's almost a negative message that you
> get from it from the positive result.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well yes. I would say right now the immediate practical
> use of this is that if a patient has a normal heart rate recovery, that
> identifies them as a low risk, therefore we don't really need to send
> them for further testing unless they're having for example refractory
> symptoms. But if their symptoms are easily controlled by medicines, or
> they're not having any symptoms at all, you know they're at very low
> risk and so we know that we can comfortably manage them conservatively
> without going on to any further testing.
>
> Norman Swan: Now this paper is interesting in that you don't actually
> commit yourselves to saying that these people died of heart attacks or
> sudden coronary death. It's overall death. Now commonsense would say
> that they karked it from their hearts, but you're not sure; why is that?
>
> Michael Lauer: We're not sure why they died, that's something which is
> going to have to require further research. What the exact mechanism is
> between this and death is not known. The current most popular theory is
> that if there's problems with the autonomic nervous system, people are
> more vulnerable to developing fatal heart arrhythmias, like sudden
> cardiac death and that's the most likely cause of death but that's going
> to require more work.
>
> Norman Swan: So just in summary: the next challenge with this is to see
> whether without bringing somebody into the laboratory, there is a way of
> predicting, with just regular exercise, whether or not your recovery is
> adequate?
>
> Michael Lauer: Right. And other things that we need to look at is how
> well this is working in other populations. We also need to look at how
> best to incorporate this with the rest of the exercise test result. And
> then of course one big question is what do you do about people who have
> an abnormal heart rate recovery beyond things that we already know
> about, like smoking cessation, cholesterol reduction and blood pressure
> reduction. Are there other things that we could specifically do to treat
> this abnormality, and that's something which will have to await further
> work.
>
> Norman Swan: Let's say for a moment you had somebody who has an abnormal
> heart rate recovery one minute after the stress test, but the stress
> test doesn't show any ischaemic changes, there's no changes due to
> shortage of blood supply, therefore nothing that otherwise would make
> you suggest there's a blocked coronary artery. If it was you, would you
> ask the doctor to send you off for an angiogram to see whether or not
> you've got a blocked coronary artery?
>
> Michael Lauer: I would be very worried. That would be an occasion I
> would be worried about. What I would do next is an imaging test; I would
> do like a nuclear test, or an echocardiogram to see if there's evidence
> of a blockage there, then I would go from there. I would only get a
> coronary angiogram if the imaging test showed that there is a problem.
>
> Norman Swan: Michael Lauer, thanks for joining us on the Health Report.
>
> Michael Lauer: Great, thank you so much for your interest in our work.
>
> Norman Swan: Dr Michael Lauer is a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic
> and that study was published in the current edition of The New England
> Journal of Medicine.
>
> Reference:
>
> Cole et al. Heart-rate recovery immediately after exercise as a
> predictor of mortality. New England Journal of Medicine
> 1999;341:1351-1357
> Guests:
>
> Dr. Michael Lauer
> Department of Cardiology,
> Cleveland Clinic Foundation,
> Desk F25,
> 9500 Euclid Ave.,
> Cleveland, Ohio 44195,
> U.S.A.
>
> email: lauerm@ccf.org.
>
> I hope this doesn't put too many people off getting from A to B with
> only
> 200 watts or less to propel them.
>
> The fact so many folks seem to need 22,000 watts at least is a
> terrible folly of the human species.
>
>Patrick Turner

[Patrick Turner]

Here is a copy of my email messaage to serious wholesale, the name of
the company
address contained in unwanted spam..

Hi all at seriouswholesale.

I take part in discussions at the Usernet Group
rec.audio.tubes.

Recently, a series of spam messages have been appearing at the
discussion group with
your website address given.

There is not one single person in the discussion group at all interested
in the much repeated and totally unwanted
spam messages we find are posted at the discussion group as replies to
posts we make to each other.

The spam messages are damaging your reputation
as a dealer of what you sell.

Please ensure you take action to prevent spam
with your website name from entering our
prvate discussion group.

Patrick Turner.

[datakoll]

i ENJOY REPEATING THIS ONCE A YEAR to the occasional hornblower

TWILIGHT ZONE, the ancient groundbreaking TV show
did a scene where there's aline at the Pearly Gates atop a cloud
plains formation. A desk and the usual iron driveway gates

one in the que is a Philly lawyer in track outfit. he's solid of limb
and not an ounce of fat on his 60 year old 5'11 185 frame.
and he sez: " I can't believe it. there I was doing 5 minute miles
then 4 65 second quarters for windsprinta and **** I dropped dead..."

[Peter Wieck]

On Mar 28, 1:26�pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anything for attention.

I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Patrick Turner]

Peter Wieck wrote:
>
> On Mar 28, 1:26�pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Anything for attention.
>
> I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
> needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.

Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet world and
once I put
a copy from a website carrying the heart rate report at r.a.t, anyone is
free to transfer it elsewhere.
I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post something
from a public radio broadcast
but I don't care about that, its more important that the people I know
should share something
which could prolong their lives.

I consider the report to be a very very
useful peice of information regarding health at r.a.t probably because
so many
of its readers and contributors are now at an age where they would be
fools if they
didn't look at their health condition closely. Heart and aterial
diseases are a very major killer
and its prudent to know if you could be prone to dying in the next few
years.

Of course we cannot be certain when the curtain comes down on our part
in life's drama
but the recovery after exercise is a powerful indicator.

I think I am one of the real lucky ones because I can ride a bicycle up
a long mountain climb
and at maybe 140BPM, lungs bursting and legs aching, and after stopping
at the top
my heart rate is back to 65 quickly, within a few minutes. If it only
came down 12BPM
after 1 minute, then maybe another 12BPM after 2 minutes, I'd be off to
see my GP asap.

I did 85km this morning, and rode past about 25 other people, mostly
much younger men and a few
very slow young women going in my direction.

Nobody passed me.

I used to race in my late 30s to mid 40s, and that really did stress me
right ****in out,
but i'd ride home after the race and after a relax the HR would be 60.

I've had a little relax after this morning, and HR is now 68.
If it was say 80, I'be be very worried. It should go to about 52
tommorrow night.

There are a lot of people in my age group who will have serious heart
problems
and the sooner they know what the problems are and do something about
it, the better.
This will never be nice news to those who take a firm egyption position,
ie, standing
in De Nile.
Many ppl I know have put off doing anything much at all for 40 years,
and a decent bike ride would kill them stone dead.
OK, so they *should* start by doing 1k, then 2k, then 4k then 8k and so
on
and as they build up all their fat will fall off and their weak body
systems and muscle
and bone structure will slowly improve.
I like to swim a consistent constant average 240metres per day while my
pool is warm enough to permit it
between end of September and beginning of May. It only takes a few
minutes to swim
240metres, but its value is enormous for health, even if I didn't cycle.

But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the majority of
other 60 year olds.

Take it or leave it.

Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for cycling
around.

I enjoy feeling 30.

Forget one's depressions and go DO something!

Cordially to all,

Patrick Turner.


>
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA

[Andre Jute]

On Mar 30, 3:32Â*am, Patrick Turner <i...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
> Peter Wieck wrote:

I have Worthless Wiecky in my killfile for a good reason. He has never
in all the years he has been stalking me said anything in the least
interesting. Even his malice is dull.
>
> > On Mar 28, 1:26�pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Anything for attention.

Looks to me more like Worthless Wiecky is the one seeking attention.

> > I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
> > needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.

Hey, dumbass. yes, you, Worthless Wiecky: Patrick *did* put it here,
hidden away in a larger post. I merely extracted something of very
great interest to many member of these conferences and gave it
greater, sole prominence. And to rub your nose in it, I republish the
public service health article in full below. As Patrick then goes on
to tell you:

> Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet world and
> once I put
> a copy from a website carrying the heart rate report at r.a.t, anyone is
> free to transfer it elsewhere.
> I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post something
> from a public radio broadcast
> but I don't care about that, its more important that the people I know
> should share something
> which could prolong their lives. Â*
>
> I consider the report to be a very very
> useful peice of information regarding health at r.a.t probably because
> so many
> of its readers and contributors are now at an age where they would be
> fools if they
> didn't look at their health condition closely. Heart and aterial
> diseases are a very major killer
> and its prudent to know if you could be prone to dying in the next few
> years.

Probably the most important public service announcement on these
conferences this year, I would say. Don't be so modest, Patrick.

> Of course we cannot be certain when the curtain comes down on our part
> in life's drama
> but the recovery after exercise is a powerful indicator.

> I think I am one of the real lucky ones because I can ride a bicycle up
> a long mountain climb
> and at maybe 140BPM, lungs bursting and legs aching, and after stopping
> at the top
> my heart rate is back to 65 quickly, within a few minutes. If it only
> came down 12BPM
> after 1 minute, then maybe another 12BPM after 2 minutes, I'd be off to
> see my GP asap.

You're going to think I'm the worst kind of moron, but when I first
got a heart rate monitor, I was brassed off that my heartrate would
fall so fast when I stopped exercising. I thought, What's the point of
all this exertion if not to get my respiration rate up? And then it
falls like a stone the minute I stop pedalling... "Ha," my physician
said when he next came cycling with me, "I know something the great
Andre Jute doesn't. Your heart rate is supposed to fall when you stop.
What sort of trainers did you have when you were a jock in your
youth?" Actually, those days the trainers would run us up a 45 degree
slope and down again until the last man lay face down in his
breakfast; nobody bothered about wimpy details like heartrate. We won
the President's Cup each of the three years I captained the team. Of
course, now running up that hill even once would probably kill me.

> I did 85km this morning, and rode past about 25 other people, mostly
> much younger men and a few
> very slow young women going in my direction.
>
> Nobody passed me.

When I pass too many people, as sometimes happens, I start worrying
that I'm not taking in the scenery, and slow down. I start worrying
when the guys practising for the Connemara Marathon run past me. But
no, seriously, since I got a bike with automatic gears, I put my heart
rate on 80 per cent of max at the town border (just far enough from
home to warm up) and try to keep it there until I stop again, letting
the autobox take care of gradient and cadence. In short, I regulate
the entire ride by heart rate rather than speed across the road or any
of the other traditional methods (cadence never worked for me anyway
on the traditional style of bike).

> I used to race in my late 30s to mid 40s, and that really did stress me
> right ****in out,
> but i'd ride home after the race and after a relax the HR would be 60.
>
> I've had a little relax after this morning, and HR is now 68.
> If it was say 80, I'be be very worried. It should go to about 52
> tommorrow night.
>
> There are a lot of people in my age group who will have serious heart
> problems
> and the sooner they know what the problems are and do something about
> it, the better.
> This will never be nice news to those who take a firm egyption position,
> ie, standing
> in De Nile.
> Many ppl I know have put off doing anything much at all for 40 years,
> and a decent bike ride would kill them stone dead.
> OK, so they *should* start by doing 1k, then 2k, then 4k then 8k and so
> on
> and as they build up all their fat will fall off and their weak body
> systems and muscle
> and bone structure will slowly improve.
> I like to swim a consistent constant average 240metres per day while my
> pool is warm enough to permit it
> between end of September and beginning of May. It only takes a few
> minutes to swim
> 240metres, but its value is enormous for health, even if I didn't cycle.
>
> But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the majority of
> other 60 year olds.
>
> Take it or leave it.
>
> Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for cycling
> around.
>
> I enjoy feeling 30.

And may you feel 30 until you're at least 90.
>
> Forget one's depressions and go DO something!
>
> Cordially to all,
>
> Patrick Turner.

Super post, Patrick.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

***********
Here is the original that Worthless Wiecky objects to, presumably only
on behalf of his own fat, slack, unhealthy ass:
***********

This was posted by Patrick Turner, known to Australian RBTers, to
rec.audio.tubes. I'm forwarding it as of general and important
interest to cyclists. -- Andre Jute

> Because I am giving this little OT talk about cycling,
> I'd like to include a report important for anyone to read regarding
> their likelyhood of heart problems.
>
> Norman Swan is a guy running a Health programme on ABC Radio National.
> he interviews Dr Micheal Lauer from the US........
>
>
>
> Norman Swan: Welcome to the program.
>
> Today, Vitamin D from one of the world's leading researchers in the
> field. In fact the person who found the active form of the vitamin, who
> with others has gone on to discover that a vitamin people thought was
> only important for bones might have a role in other parts of the body
> too, like the prostate or breast.
>
> And does sunblock affect your vitamin D status? You'll find out that
> later, too.
>
> Now I don't know about you but I'm always seeing joggers stopping to
> take their pulses and I'm never sure why; they probably have some
> esoteric knowledge about their fitness level which escapes me. But
> research published last week in the United States may one day give them
> a very good reason.
>
> In a six-year follow-up study, researchers showed that in a group of men
> and women aged around 57, the heart rate one minute after peak exercise
> strongly predicted their likelihood of dying in the following few years.
>
> It's a dramatic finding which could have an impact on the way people
> with serious coronary risk are screened or indeed whether you need to go
> on to have fancier tests like nuclear heart scans of angiography where
> your coronary blood vessels are catheterised and X-rayed.
>
> And if the findings are repeated outside the laboratory in real life,
> for example in pulse-taking joggers, it could have wide public health
> ramifications.
>
> The person who led the research team was Dr Michael Lauer, a
> cardiologist at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
>
> Michael Lauer: We looked at something very simple; we looked at the
> heart rate at the end of exercise, in people undergoing exercise
> testing, and then we looked at their heart rate one minute after they
> finished exercise. We took the difference between the heart rate at peak
> exercise and the heart rate one minute later, and we measured the heart
> rate recovery. We followed 2,400 patients for about six years, during
> which time 213 of them died. And what we found was that this change in
> heart rate during the first minute after exercise was an extremely
> powerful predictor of mortality, in fact it was the most powerful
> predictor of mortality that we've looked at; it was a more powerful
> predictor of mortality than nuclear tests, which look at blood flow
> abnormality to the heart, and it was a much more powerful predictor of
> mortality than the electrocardiogram we physically looked at during
> exercise.
>
> Norman Swan: Or during the stress test. So give me an idea of peak
> exercise in the stress test; how far do you take people in the stress
> test to get to this peak level?
>
> Michael Lauer: Well typically we will exercise people for about 8-12
> minutes, that's how long it usually takes to get somebody going very
> quickly and getting them to the point of maximal exhaustion. Let's say
> for a typical 50-year-old man, you'd expect the heart rate to rise from
> about 70 at rest to about 170 at peak exercise. And then what we'd like
> to see is the heart rate fall by at least 20 beats per minute during
> that first minute after exercise. That would take us down to 150. People
> with an abnormal heart rate recovery, the heart rate only falls by a
> little bit during that first minute after exercise. They were the ones
> who were at really high risk for subsequent death.
>
> Norman Swan: I think in the paper you defined the heart beat reduction
> as 12 beats per minute or less.
>
> Michael Lauer: Twelve beats a minute, that's correct.
>
> Norman Swan: As a reduction. Can you apply this knowledge, or is there
> any other research which suggests if you go for your average jog,
> measure your pulse at the end of it and your pulse a minute later,
> that's got any measure worth considering here?
>
> Michael Lauer: That's a very good question, because an average jog
> typically is not maximal exercise. We are looking at people who
> underwent some maximal exercise, and we're going to look at that as
> well. My guess is that it will work, but that's something that will
> require some further research.
>
> Norman Swan: What is it about the heart, what is it about the
> cardiovascular system that you're measuring here? Is it some sort of
> holistic measure that you can't pin it down to one thing, in other words
> you're getting a kind of global snapshot of the health of the
> cardiovascular system, or is it something specific?
>
> Michael Lauer: What we're actually measuring is something called the
> autonomic nervous system, that part of the nervous system that regulates
> heart rate and blood pressure and breathing. It's been known for a long
> time that abnormalities of the autonomic nervous system are correlated
> with death risk, but the problem is that the way in which these
> abnormalities are measured are very difficult. They require
> sophisticated equipment and they require the kind of tests which simply
> have not entered the realm of normal clinical practice. What we find is
> that these very, very simple measures that are obtained as part of
> regular routine exercise testing deflect what happens to the autonomic
> nervous system and provides us with just as powerful predictors of risk
> of death.
>
> Norman Swan: So what you're saying is you're not finding necessarily
> blocked coronary arteries; in other words you couldn't replace the
> stress test or some of these nuclear scans with this simple test,
> because it's not picking up a blocked artery which then you can go on
> and do an angioplasty on.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well we may very well; we are looking at something
> different than blocked coronary arteries. But what we can say is this:
> people have a normal heart rate recovery are at extremely low risk, and
> because they are at extremely low risk, it makes a lot more sense to
> manage them conservatively, and not project them to essentially risky
> procedures. If you know that somebody has a death risk of less than 1%
> per year then it really doesn't make very much sense to refer them for a
> procedure which carries with it a 1%-2% chance of death within 30 days.
>
> Norman Swan: So in other words, it's almost a negative message that you
> get from it from the positive result.
>
> Michael Lauer: Well yes. I would say right now the immediate practical
> use of this is that if a patient has a normal heart rate recovery, that
> identifies them as a low risk, therefore we don't really need to send
> them for further testing unless they're having for example refractory
> symptoms. But if their symptoms are easily controlled by medicines, or
> they're not having any symptoms at all, you know they're at very low
> risk and so we know that we can comfortably manage them conservatively
> without going on to any further testing.
>
> Norman Swan: Now this paper is interesting in that you don't actually
> commit yourselves to saying that these people died of heart attacks or
> sudden coronary death. It's overall death. Now commonsense would say
> that they karked it from their hearts, but you're not sure; why is that?
>
> Michael Lauer: We're not sure why they died, that's something which is
> going to have to require further research. What the exact mechanism is
> between this and death is not known. The current most popular theory is
> that if there's problems with the autonomic nervous system, people are
> more vulnerable to developing fatal heart arrhythmias, like sudden
> cardiac death and that's the most likely cause of death but that's going
> to require more work.
>
> Norman Swan: So just in summary: the next challenge with this is to see
> whether without bringing somebody into the laboratory, there is a way of
> predicting, with just regular exercise, whether or not your recovery is
> adequate?
>
> Michael Lauer: Right. And other things that we need to look at is how
> well this is working in other populations. We also need to look at how
> best to incorporate this with the rest of the exercise test result. And
> then of course one big question is what do you do about people who have
> an abnormal heart rate recovery beyond things that we already know
> about, like smoking cessation, cholesterol reduction and blood pressure
> reduction. Are there other things that we could specifically do to treat
> this abnormality, and that's something which will have to await further
> work.
>
> Norman Swan: Let's say for a moment you had somebody who has an abnormal
> heart rate recovery one minute after the stress test, but the stress
> test doesn't show any ischaemic changes, there's no changes due to
> shortage of blood supply, therefore nothing that otherwise would make
> you suggest there's a blocked coronary artery. If it was you, would you
> ask the doctor to send you off for an angiogram to see whether or not
> you've got a blocked coronary artery?
>
> Michael Lauer: I would be very worried. That would be an occasion I
> would be worried about. What I would do next is an imaging test; I would
> do like a nuclear test, or an echocardiogram to see if there's evidence
> of a blockage there, then I would go from there. I would only get a
> coronary angiogram if the imaging test showed that there is a problem.
>
> Norman Swan: Michael Lauer, thanks for joining us on the Health Report.
>
> Michael Lauer: Great, thank you so much for your interest in our work.
>
> Norman Swan: Dr Michael Lauer is a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic
> and that study was published in the current edition of The New England
> Journal of Medicine.
>
> Reference:
>
> Cole et al. Heart-rate recovery immediately after exercise as a
> predictor of mortality. New England Journal of Medicine
> 1999;341:1351-1357
> Guests:
>
> Dr. Michael Lauer
> Department of Cardiology,
> Cleveland Clinic Foundation,
> Desk F25,
> 9500 Euclid Ave.,
> Cleveland, Ohio 44195,
> U.S.A.
>
> email: lauerm@ccf.org.
>
> I hope this doesn't put too many people off getting from A to B with
> only
> 200 watts or less to propel them.
>
> The fact so many folks seem to need 22,000 watts at least is a
> terrible folly of the human species.
>
>Patrick Turner

[John Henderson]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet
> world and once I put a copy from a website carrying the heart
> rate report at r.a.t, anyone is free to transfer it elsewhere.
> I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post
> something from a public radio broadcast but I don't care about
> that, its more important that the people I know should share
> something which could prolong their lives.

The original transcript is at:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s63595.htm

....

> But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the
> majority of other 60 year olds.
>
> Take it or leave it.
>
> Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for
> cycling around.

Well I'm not 60 yet (2 months to go), but I do live in Canberra.
So I'll mention the Sheldon Brown memorial ride to be held
around Lake Ginninderra starting from Florey shops at 6:00pm on
Tuesday April 1. Details:
http://www.cyclesurgery.com.au/sheldon.cfm

John

[Jon Yaeger]

I think a better correlation of longevity viz-a-viz the heart is the
thickness of the left ventricle wall. It's thickness is inversely
proportional to life span.

Jon

[Colin Campbell]

Patrick wrote (in part):

I consider the report to be a very very useful peice of information
regarding health at r.a.t probably because so many of its readers and
contributors are now at an age where they would be fools if they
didn't look at their health condition closely.
=====
Patrick,
If only people understood that ALL ages are the right ages to look after
your health!

It sounds as if you and I are living along the same lines. I ride
nearly every day, I work out at the gym four days a week, and I have
recent proof that my bike climbing is better than it was 12 - 15 years ago.

I just resumed wearing a heart rate monitor after not doing so for many
years. I'll pay closer attention in the next several days, but I
believe my heart rate drops by at least 12 bpm in the first minute after
I stop for a red light, for example. So, I'm relieved to think that I
may live for a while longer....

Everyone else - if you aren't already doing so, please get busy now
taking care of yourselves!

[Patrick Turner]

Well, please excuse my top posting, but I have to agree with
all of what Andre says below, and I hope Peter finds food for thought
in the fullness of time.

I am not here to make enemies.

After today's little 85km ride, I did recover well,
and below I mention my heart rate had been goodness knows how high
while stomping past so many younger folks out for a glorious sunday
ride.

I said my HR might decline to 52BPM by tomorrow, but its now gone to a
steady 50BPM.

I might not die of a broken heart.

I am addicted to speed. The feeling of roaring down a long downhill at
60kph pedling hard is extatic to me.
I used to get around on a BMW 750cc, but never lust for one now.
I can only manage about 37kph on the flat, just a slow old bastard.
Cadel Evans who may win the next TDF might average 53kph.
He gets paid better, and it must feel good.....

Sure I like the scenery as i labour so hard to get through it.
There is a large group of roads which are my regular haunts,
and i've seen the same scenery move past me rather slowly and grandly
on an off for the 31 years I've lived here in Canberra.
After awhile the scenery becomes even a bit boring, and
things like cycling style and speed performance become more mind
consuming.
I'm constantly on the lookout for broken glass, potholes,
stray half bricks, bits off motor vehicles, and all manner of
situational hazards,
all of which is the function of the wild animal surviving with senses
alert.
Sometimes i might get a puncture in the middle of a rainstorm
and I just stop, change the inner tube, soaked to the bone, and cold,
and I feel
totally good. There are days its snowed, and it piled on me.
A bit cool, so don't stop pedling...

There is good and bad in the scenery I see from a cyclist's point of
view.

In 85km I did today, I passed about 5 freshly killed kangaroos
lying by the roadsides, some under attack by crows pecking at their dead
eyes.

One crow looked up cheekily from his feasting with his green luminous
eyes as I rode past as if
wondered if I'd be as tasty when I'm run down by a motorist.
But the motorists were very considerate to me today.
Maybe that crow will have to wait awhile for my eyeballs...
But I reckon there were many more 'roos killed this last day that i
didn't see.
They'd be laying low in ditches and so on, and since there are thousands
of kilometres of roads,
total 'roo kill must be in hundreds per night, especially on weekends
when young ppl
roar around in the early morning when they are drunk.

Uncle Plod was hiding in his hotted up persuit car behind bushes. Thank
goodness he's out there.
He gave me a wave as I went by at about 60.

I got back home at 11:15, and at 3pm I went to a fine live concert to
re-calibrate my ears.
Its been awhile since I did this, and cello and piano playing sonatas by
Rubinstein were a treat for a couple of hours. Chocolate cake and coffee
were
served at 1/2 time. Rubinstein taught musicians in Russia
in the latter 1/2 of the 19th century. Russia then didn't have many true
musicians
and other nationalities went to Russia to teach, and were well sought
after from France and Germany.
Anyway a fine old guy on piano and a star with cello
gave us a taste of music as experienced in 1860, somewhere in europe.
200 people attended in the 'rehersal' room of our local School of Music.

True food for the soul, and not an electron or triode to be seen or
heard.
I met a pleasant couple sitting nearby, and mentioned one should let the
consciousness we normally have to
flow out while letting the music flood in.
Music like this, I mentioned, is like a religious experience without all
the preaching.

Religion is vexatious to me because preachers so often offend more than
they inform or uplift
by what they leave out or cannot explain properly.

Music has been well fathered by religious organisations though, and
without churches
music would not have been experienced in former times.
Oz was a frontier place with very little culture and with a large
influence from the convicts brought here to populate the place for
England's sake.
Churches sprang up everywhere, and in them music played a large part in
getting ppl
to church because it provided beauty in what was a hard life.
So stern sermons were probably tolerated, if the music was good.
The 20th century brought he secularization of music and the recording
industry.....

Much earlier, JPS Bach was a genius with music, all for God, and boy,
when he wasn't writing music or
performing or teaching it, he was having sex and helping at home;
he sired 21 children.

There are some ancestors who are a very hard act to follow...

Patrick Turner.




Andre Jute wrote:
>
> On Mar 30, 3:32Â am, Patrick Turner <i...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
> > Peter Wieck wrote:
>
> I have Worthless Wiecky in my killfile for a good reason. He has never
> in all the years he has been stalking me said anything in the least
> interesting. Even his malice is dull.
> >
> > > On Mar 28, 1:26�pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Anything for attention.
>
> Looks to me more like Worthless Wiecky is the one seeking attention.
>
> > > I am sure if Patrick wanted it here, he would have put it here. He
> > > needs no apologists. He is more than adequate as his own spokesman.
>
> Hey, dumbass. yes, you, Worthless Wiecky: Patrick *did* put it here,
> hidden away in a larger post. I merely extracted something of very
> great interest to many member of these conferences and gave it
> greater, sole prominence. And to rub your nose in it, I republish the
> public service health article in full below. As Patrick then goes on
> to tell you:
>
> > Andre can put things wherever he likes. Its a free internet world and
> > once I put
> > a copy from a website carrying the heart rate report at r.a.t, anyone is
> > free to transfer it elsewhere.
> > I may have done the wrong thing regarding copyright to post something
> > from a public radio broadcast
> > but I don't care about that, its more important that the people I know
> > should share something
> > which could prolong their lives. Â
> >
> > I consider the report to be a very very
> > useful peice of information regarding health at r.a.t probably because
> > so many
> > of its readers and contributors are now at an age where they would be
> > fools if they
> > didn't look at their health condition closely. Heart and aterial
> > diseases are a very major killer
> > and its prudent to know if you could be prone to dying in the next few
> > years.
>
> Probably the most important public service announcement on these
> conferences this year, I would say. Don't be so modest, Patrick.
>
> > Of course we cannot be certain when the curtain comes down on our part
> > in life's drama
> > but the recovery after exercise is a powerful indicator.
>
> > I think I am one of the real lucky ones because I can ride a bicycle up
> > a long mountain climb
> > and at maybe 140BPM, lungs bursting and legs aching, and after stopping
> > at the top
> > my heart rate is back to 65 quickly, within a few minutes. If it only
> > came down 12BPM
> > after 1 minute, then maybe another 12BPM after 2 minutes, I'd be off to
> > see my GP asap.
>
> You're going to think I'm the worst kind of moron, but when I first
> got a heart rate monitor, I was brassed off that my heartrate would
> fall so fast when I stopped exercising. I thought, What's the point of
> all this exertion if not to get my respiration rate up? And then it
> falls like a stone the minute I stop pedalling... "Ha," my physician
> said when he next came cycling with me, "I know something the great
> Andre Jute doesn't. Your heart rate is supposed to fall when you stop.
> What sort of trainers did you have when you were a jock in your
> youth?" Actually, those days the trainers would run us up a 45 degree
> slope and down again until the last man lay face down in his
> breakfast; nobody bothered about wimpy details like heartrate. We won
> the President's Cup each of the three years I captained the team. Of
> course, now running up that hill even once would probably kill me.
>
> > I did 85km this morning, and rode past about 25 other people, mostly
> > much younger men and a few
> > very slow young women going in my direction.
> >
> > Nobody passed me.
>
> When I pass too many people, as sometimes happens, I start worrying
> that I'm not taking in the scenery, and slow down. I start worrying
> when the guys practising for the Connemara Marathon run past me. But
> no, seriously, since I got a bike with automatic gears, I put my heart
> rate on 80 per cent of max at the town border (just far enough from
> home to warm up) and try to keep it there until I stop again, letting
> the autobox take care of gradient and cadence. In short, I regulate
> the entire ride by heart rate rather than speed across the road or any
> of the other traditional methods (cadence never worked for me anyway
> on the traditional style of bike).
>
> > I used to race in my late 30s to mid 40s, and that really did stress me
> > right ****in out,
> > but i'd ride home after the race and after a relax the HR would be 60.
> >
> > I've had a little relax after this morning, and HR is now 68.
> > If it was say 80, I'be be very worried. It should go to about 52
> > tommorrow night.
> >
> > There are a lot of people in my age group who will have serious heart
> > problems
> > and the sooner they know what the problems are and do something about
> > it, the better.
> > This will never be nice news to those who take a firm egyption position,
> > ie, standing
> > in De Nile.
> > Many ppl I know have put off doing anything much at all for 40 years,
> > and a decent bike ride would kill them stone dead.
> > OK, so they *should* start by doing 1k, then 2k, then 4k then 8k and so
> > on
> > and as they build up all their fat will fall off and their weak body
> > systems and muscle
> > and bone structure will slowly improve.
> > I like to swim a consistent constant average 240metres per day while my
> > pool is warm enough to permit it
> > between end of September and beginning of May. It only takes a few
> > minutes to swim
> > 240metres, but its value is enormous for health, even if I didn't cycle.
> >
> > But I can't help those who won't help themselves, ie, the majority of
> > other 60 year olds.
> >
> > Take it or leave it.
> >
> > Its a beautiful fine cool day here in Canberra, perfect for cycling
> > around.
> >
> > I enjoy feeling 30.
>
> And may you feel 30 until you're at least 90.
> >
> > Forget one's depressions and go DO something!
> >
> > Cordially to all,
> >
> > Patrick Turner.
>
> Super post, Patrick.
>
> Andre Jute
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html
>
> ***********
> Here is the original that Worthless Wiecky objects to, presumably only
> on behalf of his own fat, slack, unhealthy ass:
> ***********
>
> This was posted by Patrick Turner, known to Australian RBTers, to
> rec.audio.tubes. I'm forwarding it as of general and important
> interest to cyclists. -- Andre Jute
>
> > Because I am giving this little OT talk about cycling,
> > I'd like to include a report important for anyone to read regarding
> > their likelyhood of heart problems.
> >
> > Norman Swan is a guy running a Health programme on ABC Radio National.
> > he interviews Dr Micheal Lauer from the US........
> >
> >
> >
> > Norman Swan: Welcome to the program.
> >
> > Today, Vitamin D from one of the world's leading researchers in the
> > field. In fact the person who found the active form of the vitamin, who
> > with others has gone on to discover that a vitamin people thought was
> > only important for bones might have a role in other parts of the body
> > too, like the prostate or breast.
> >
> > And does sunblock affect your vitamin D status? You'll find out that
> > later, too.
> >
> > Now I don't know about you but I'm always seeing joggers stopping to
> > take their pulses and I'm never sure why; they probably have some
> > esoteric knowledge about their fitness level which escapes me. But
> > research published last week in the United States may one day give them
> > a very good reason.
> >
> > In a six-year follow-up study, researchers showed that in a group of men
> > and women aged around 57, the heart rate one minute after peak exercise
> > strongly predicted their likelihood of dying in the following few years.
> >
> > It's a dramatic finding which could have an impact on the way people
> > with serious coronary risk are screened or indeed whether you need to go
> > on to have fancier tests like nuclear heart scans of angiography where
> > your coronary blood vessels are catheterised and X-rayed.
> >
> > And if the findings are repeated outside the laboratory in real life,
> > for example in pulse-taking joggers, it could have wide public health
> > ramifications.
> >
> > The person who led the research team was Dr Michael Lauer, a
> > cardiologist at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.
> >
> > Michael Lauer: We looked at something very simple; we looked at the
> > heart rate at the end of exercise, in people undergoing exercise
> > testing, and then we looked at their heart rate one minute after they
> > finished exercise. We took the difference between the heart rate at peak
> > exercise and the heart rate one minute later, and we measured the heart
> > rate recovery. We followed 2,400 patients for about six years, during
> > which time 213 of them died. And what we found was that this change in
> > heart rate during the first minute after exercise was an extremely
> > powerful predictor of mortality, in fact it was the most powerful
> > predictor of mortality that we've looked at; it was a more powerful
> > predictor of mortality than nuclear tests, which look at blood flow
> > abnormality to the heart, and it was a much more powerful predictor of
> > mortality than the electrocardiogram we physically looked at during
> > exercise.
> >
> > Norman Swan: Or during the stress test. So give me an idea of peak
> > exercise in the stress test; how far do you take people in the stress
> > test to get to this peak level?
> >
> > Michael Lauer: Well typically we will exercise people for about 8-12
> > minutes, that's how long it usually takes to get somebody going very
> > quickly and getting them to the point of maximal exhaustion. Let's say
> > for a typical 50-year-old man, you'd expect the heart rate to rise from
> > about 70 at rest to about 170 at peak exercise. And then what we'd like
> > to see is the heart rate fall by at least 20 beats per minute during
> > that first minute after exercise. That would take us down to 150. People
> > with an abnormal heart rate recovery, the heart rate only falls by a
> > little bit during that first minute after exercise. They were the ones
> > who were at really high risk for subsequent death.
> >
> > Norman Swan: I think in the paper you defined the heart beat reduction
> > as 12 beats per minute or less.
> >
> > Michael Lauer: Twelve beats a minute, that's correct.
> >
> > Norman Swan: As a reduction. Can you apply this knowledge, or is there
> > any other research which suggests if you go for your average jog,
> > measure your pulse at the end of it and your pulse a minute later,
> > that's got any measure worth considering here?
> >
> > Michael Lauer: That's a very good question, because an average jog
> > typically is not maximal exercise. We are looking at people who
> > underwent some maximal exercise, and we're going to look at that as
> > well. My guess is that it will work, but that's something that will
> > require some further research.
> >
> > Norman Swan: What is it about the heart, what is it about the
> > cardiovascular system that you're measuring here? Is it some sort of
> > holistic measure that you can't pin it down to one thing, in other words
> > you're getting a kind of global snapshot of the health of the
> > cardiovascular system, or is it something specific?
> >
> > Michael Lauer: What we're actually measuring is something called the
> > autonomic nervous system, that part of the nervous system that regulates
> > heart rate and blood pressure and breathing. It's been known for a long
> > time that abnormalities of the autonomic nervous system are correlated
> > with death risk, but the problem is that the way in which these
> > abnormalities are measured are very difficult. They require
> > sophisticated equipment and they require the kind of tests which simply
> > have not entered the realm of normal clinical practice. What we find is
> > that these very, very simple measures that are obtained as part of
> > regular routine exercise testing deflect what happens to the autonomic
> > nervous system and provides us with just as powerful predictors of risk
> > of death.
> >
> > Norman Swan: So what you're saying is you're not finding necessarily
> > blocked coronary arteries; in other words you couldn't replace the
> > stress test or some of these nuclear scans with this simple test,
> > because it's not picking up a blocked artery which then you can go on
> > and do an angioplasty on.
> >
> > Michael Lauer: Well we may very well; we are looking at something
> > different than blocked coronary arteries. But what we can say is this:
> > people have a normal heart rate recovery are at extremely low risk, and
> > because they are at extremely low risk, it makes a lot more sense to
> > manage them conservatively, and not project them to essentially risky
> > procedures. If you know that somebody has a death risk of less than 1%
> > per year then it really doesn't make very much sense to refer them for a
> > procedure which carries with it a 1%-2% chance of death within 30 days.
> >
> > Norman Swan: So in other words, it's almost a negative message that you
> > get from it from the positive result.
> >
> > Michael Lauer: Well yes. I would say right now the immediate practical
> > use of this is that if a patient has a normal heart rate recovery, that
> > identifies them as a low risk, therefore we don't really need to send
> > them for further testing unless they're having for example refractory
> > symptoms. But if their symptoms are easily controlled by medicines, or
> > they're not having any symptoms at all, you know they're at very low
> > risk and so we know that we can comfortably manage them conservatively
> > without going on to any further testing.
> >
> > Norman Swan: Now this paper is interesting in that you don't actually
> > commit yourselves to saying that these people died of heart attacks or
> > sudden coronary death. It's overall death. Now commonsense would say
> > that they karked it from their hearts, but you're not sure; why is that?
> >
> > Michael Lauer: We're not sure why they died, that's something which is
> > going to have to require further research. What the exact mechanism is
> > between this and death is not known. The current most popular theory is
> > that if there's problems with the autonomic nervous system, people are
> > more vulnerable to developing fatal heart arrhythmias, like sudden
> > cardiac death and that's the most likely cause of death but that's going
> > to require more work.
> >
> > Norman Swan: So just in summary: the next challenge with this is to see
> > whether without bringing somebody into the laboratory, there is a way of
> > predicting, with just regular exercise, whether or not your recovery is
> > adequate?
> >
> > Michael Lauer: Right. And other things that we need to look at is how
> > well this is working in other populations. We also need to look at how
> > best to incorporate this with the rest of the exercise test result. And
> > then of course one big question is what do you do about people who have
> > an abnormal heart rate recovery beyond things that we already know
> > about, like smoking cessation, cholesterol reduction and blood pressure
> > reduction. Are there other things that we could specifically do to treat
> > this abnormality, and that's something which will have to await further
> > work.
> >
> > Norman Swan: Let's say for a moment you had somebody who has an abnormal
> > heart rate recovery one minute after the stress test, but the stress
> > test doesn't show any ischaemic changes, there's no changes due to
> > shortage of blood supply, therefore nothing that otherwise would make
> > you suggest there's a blocked coronary artery. If it was you, would you
> > ask the doctor to send you off for an angiogram to see whether or not
> > you've got a blocked coronary artery?
> >
> > Michael Lauer: I would be very worried. That would be an occasion I
> > would be worried about. What I would do next is an imaging test; I would
> > do like a nuclear test, or an echocardiogram to see if there's evidence
> > of a blockage there, then I would go from there. I would only get a
> > coronary angiogram if the imaging test showed that there is a problem.
> >
> > Norman Swan: Michael Lauer, thanks for joining us on the Health Report.
> >
> > Michael Lauer: Great, thank you so much for your interest in our work.
> >
> > Norman Swan: Dr Michael Lauer is a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic
> > and that study was published in the current edition of The New England
> > Journal of Medicine.
> >
> > Reference:
> >
> > Cole et al. Heart-rate recovery immediately after exercise as a
> > predictor of mortality. New England Journal of Medicine
> > 1999;341:1351-1357
> > Guests:
> >
> > Dr. Michael Lauer
> > Department of Cardiology,
> > Cleveland Clinic Foundation,
> > Desk F25,
> > 9500 Euclid Ave.,
> > Cleveland, Ohio 44195,
> > U.S.A.
> >
> > email: lauerm@ccf.org.
> >
> > I hope this doesn't put too many people off getting from A to B with
> > only
> > 200 watts or less to propel them.
> >
> > The fact so many folks seem to need 22,000 watts at least is a
> > terrible folly of the human species.
> >
> >Patrick Turner

[bassett]

"Patrick Turner" <info@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:47EFC34F.E02966FF@turneraudio.com.au...
> Well, please excuse my top posting, but I have to agree with
> all of what Andre says below, and I hope Peter finds food for thought
> in the fullness of time.
>
> I am not here to make enemies.
>
> After today's little 85km ride, I did recover well,
>

All this bike riding, your bloody heart attack material, We've got a
bloke like you up this way, goes out every morning, for a two hour ride,
never stops telling people how fit and active he is.. And while he's out
riding the hills and watching the birds I,m round his place a couple of
days a week giving her indoors a seeing too
She's got a smile on her face and he thinks it's him.

Really you would do yourself a favour, if you bought yourself a motorbike,
You can still watch the birds, and countryside, and have a good rest
while your at it.
Just remember the old adage,,
" Why should a working man work, when he has the health and strength to
lie in bed. "


bassett

[still just me]

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:50:19 GMT, Patrick Turner
<info@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:

>Here is a copy of my email messaage to serious wholesale, the name of
>the company
>address contained in unwanted spam..
>
>Hi all at seriouswholesale.
>
>I take part in discussions at the Usernet Group
>rec.audio.tubes.
>
>Recently, a series of spam messages have been appearing at the
>discussion group with
>your website address given.
>
>There is not one single person in the discussion group at all interested
>in the much repeated and totally unwanted
>spam messages we find are posted at the discussion group as replies to
>posts we make to each other.
>
>The spam messages are damaging your reputation
>as a dealer of what you sell.
>
>Please ensure you take action to prevent spam
>with your website name from entering our
>prvate discussion group.
>
>Patrick Turner.

Good work, I'm sure that will stop him.

[Patrick Turner]

Colin Campbell wrote:
>
> Patrick wrote (in part):
>
> I consider the report to be a very very useful peice of information
> regarding health at r.a.t probably because so many of its readers and
> contributors are now at an age where they would be fools if they
> didn't look at their health condition closely.
> =====
> Patrick,
> If only people understood that ALL ages are the right ages to look after
> your health!

Ordinary people who live like kings of old in "advanced western
countries"
are now prone to all sorts of rich ppl diseases as a result
of consuming too much too often and not doing enough.

Because every weak person can breed and have all the resulting
weaknesses passed into a following generation, the species must be
weakening as a whole
as the generations pass and medical technology improves.

This is the result of choice, and democracy etc, and the facts I see
can't be really fairly quanified in terms of vice or virtue; if someone
likes to smoke 3 packs a day then not much I want to do if the man
is a leading surgeon. I knew a doc like that, he came to dinner
often when I was young. He made retirement, then died of lung cancer.
A very good man he was, and completely addicted.
All my mum's pals who smoked died before 70, but she never became
hooked, and only
occasionally smoked before 40, and she's 91 now.
I was similar, and gave up smoking at 35.

Everyone SHOULD think all the time about their health but
most just don't, won't, and never have or will.

Something goes wrong, they just expect a medical fix.

One cannot expect the Human to change much about himself, or herself.

>
> It sounds as if you and I are living along the same lines. I ride
> nearly every day, I work out at the gym four days a week, and I have
> recent proof that my bike climbing is better than it was 12 - 15 years ago.

I rode a little at 15 to 17, and was a pretty hopeless athlete really.
I did have Miguel Indurain's build, tall, strong, and slim, and still do
at 60,
but I never had Miguel's lungs heart and many other freakish
cababilities.

At 19, I had a motorcycle prang and serious damaged a foot and knee.
No more running, so I walked, and thought about things longer,
and this made me a more capable builder for 30 years.
At 36 I got back on the bicycle,
and found I gradually got fast enough to race, and I spent 6 years as a
veteran
doing maybe 200 races and about 300km a week.
My knees suffered, I gave up, and eventually had a cartilidge trimming
operation.
The docs all said I needed new titanium knee joints.
Hmm, my knees got a bit better after the minor op, and
I said to myself I may as well try cycling again and i'd either
**** my legs right up, or things would feel better.
I feel better. I ain't doin building work though, so I ain't burning the
candle
at both ends and in the middle, and on top of already damaged knees,
and knees that were never designed like Indurain's.
I may still take the surgeon's offer of new knees, but as far out into
the future as i can
because the failure rate of prosthetic knee and hip joints is 25% in Oz.
7% in Sweeden I am told.

Having knee joints replaced a 2nd or 3rd time at 75 is a bastard of
thing to suffer.

One customer of mine has had two knee replacements and 3 hip
replacements.

Hubert Opperman is a hero of mine and he died from heart failure at 91
while riding
his exercise bicycle. He'd done about 20 times the amount of cycling
I have done by age 60, and he lived well till 91.

So its not worth getting too worried by people saying you'll drop dead
from exercize.

Something WILL kill you, and just when you'll never really know.

The heart rate thing does seem like a legitimate way of knowing your
heart a little better.

Nevertheless, people do drop dead from exercize, and often its not
because of the
exercize, its because they had a heart problem anyway, and just happened
to be
exercizing when they died.

Not long ago a chief legal man here died during a ride up a steep hill
here.
He just had no clue he was prone to heart problems. Much was said about
exercise and dying at the time, but many more die anyway and they don't
exercize,
or they are barely alive while dealing with a litany of complaints,
obesity,
smoking damage, diabetes, all sorts of things.

Maybe the man was weighed with the stress of the job, and probably
went to many socials and ate and drank a way too much...
and didn't ride consistently. Being a top legal cocky
and well paid, and well loved by his family didn't
mean he'd live a long life.

>
> I just resumed wearing a heart rate monitor after not doing so for many
> years. I'll pay closer attention in the next several days, but I
> believe my heart rate drops by at least 12 bpm in the first minute after
> I stop for a red light, for example. So, I'm relieved to think that I
> may live for a while longer....

I don't have a HR monitor.

In the past I have measured the HR at the top of a hill,
and counted it using a watch. Just count while the seconds go a minute.
HR going from 140 to 70 would be about OK and normal for a fit man.
I recover real well, and on a ride with a group of equally fit people
I recover well at each downhill section.
One kinda knows when you have reached an overload point very quickly
when you are not fit.
The bunch just ride away from you real quick, you huff and puff and
nearly
blow the mountain over and the heart wants to jump out of the chest....
So you gotta know when to quit.
I don't race now because it involves too many "absolute maximum effort
events" and
would indeed strain me a little too much. In a typical race of 50km,
maybe ther'd be 20 climbs, a couple of breaks to cover, and 20+ times
it'd be a max out.
I am not inclined these days.

Opperman said that old cyclists are like old tyres.
They may have been designed for high pressure
but maybe they'll burst.

If I couldn't ride because of heart problems I wouldn't. I spent
14 years off the bike because of knee bothers, then found
I could get back on. I found I'd put on 1Kg each year off the bike.
Some ppl will put that on in a month, because they have no self control.
I was always saing no to myself when presented with a plate full of
cake.
If my knees went again maybe I'd get a canoe.

I started to swim to improve lung and heart function 2 years ago
but it wasn't enough to get weightloss, and I don't like swimming much.
But 20 lengths of my pool are terrific after a 4 hour ride.

There are a lot of guys who have divorced their body.
No matter what they do they'll never be into exercize.
And some get all manner of health problems they have no control over,
no matter what willpower thay have or don't have.

Humans vary immensely, and we are a product of genes, environment,
and choices, but by what amounts is never really clear.

I really hate gyms. And I'd have to pay to hate them after I went in.
I don't much like bunch riding any more either.

I prefer an open road ahead, nobody hanging on my wheel,
and a clear day at my own pace.

I like some speed sometimes, but mostly I just
do the distance I've gone and forget about how long it takes.

I'm the same with work.

Customers want their amps built in a week, and gradually I introduce
them to the idea that a
craftsman's week is a heck of a long time. Time goes painfully slow for
them.
I don't care about being slow. I'm only good for things that take time.
When I raced, I liked real long hard ones, and they didn't really have
anything much
over 100km very often, but that's when I did pretty well.
The sprinters were stuffed.

I have to constantly wean people off the idea than Rome could be built
in a day.

One guy I know changed amps about every month for a year; yes, there are
audio gear addicts out there.
He is thinking about his waist which has become more obvious to him each
passing day.
He says he's thinking about riding.
Maybe he starts riding, and with luck he might re-balance his life a
bit.

Patrick Turner.







>
> Everyone else - if you aren't already doing so, please get busy now
> taking care of yourselves!

[John Thompson]

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.tech.]
On 2008-04-01, Patrick Turner <info@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> Because every weak person can breed and have all the resulting
> weaknesses passed into a following generation, the species must be
> weakening as a whole as the generations pass and medical technology
> improves.

No, that's not how it works. Natural selection is non-random, but
non-directed; it depends entirely on the local environment. Natural
selection is still there, just selecting for different traits than in
the past.

--

John (john@os2.dhs.org)

[GregS]

In article <t095v3hagig79ss2mq20cmabtpj68iu8la@4ax.com>, still just me <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:50:19 GMT, Patrick Turner
><info@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Here is a copy of my email messaage to serious wholesale, the name of
>>the company
>>address contained in unwanted spam..
>>
>>Hi all at seriouswholesale.
>>
>>I take part in discussions at the Usernet Group
>>rec.audio.tubes.
>>
>>Recently, a series of spam messages have been appearing at the
>>discussion group with
>>your website address given.
>>
>>There is not one single person in the discussion group at all interested
>>in the much repeated and totally unwanted
>>spam messages we find are posted at the discussion group as replies to
>>posts we make to each other.
>>
>>The spam messages are damaging your reputation
>>as a dealer of what you sell.
>>
>>Please ensure you take action to prevent spam
>>with your website name from entering our
>>prvate discussion group.
>>
>>Patrick Turner.
>
>Good work, I'm sure that will stop him.

I just said FXxxknhxjFffiJjpffpOPOPjOPUSENET


greg

[Patrick Turner]

John Thompson wrote:
>
> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.tech.]
> On 2008-04-01, Patrick Turner <info@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > Because every weak person can breed and have all the resulting
> > weaknesses passed into a following generation, the species must be
> > weakening as a whole as the generations pass and medical technology
> > improves.
>
> No, that's not how it works. Natural selection is non-random, but
> non-directed; it depends entirely on the local environment. Natural
> selection is still there, just selecting for different traits than in
> the past.

We keep ppl alive who might have died 100 years ago before getting a
chance to breed.
But now they do breed, often in their late 30s or early 40s for the
first time,
and whatever is wrong with them is passed on.

This isn't too bad a thing, because it makes ppl happy mostly.

And the best things about these ppl are also passed on.

The society values good things for itself such as doctors who can cure
disease, and techs to make the PC work, so both get paid a lot and
if youse are one or the other, it ain't too hard to find a gal who
doesn't mind getting a little bit pregnant sometimes.

But if youse is a tube amp tech, its almost dead impossible to find a
wife.
So my jeans won't be reproduced, and any facility I may have had with
figuring out
tube amps won't go into my offspring.

Natural selection these days means youse get selected if youse got
domani

No got domani means your jeans will not be extended or blended with
anyone else's jeans.

We all have jeans which are a complex mix of many previous pairs all
sewn together,
and some jeans are impossible to wash or iron, and too tight around the
waist,
so we find a bin for those ones, while others are nice to wear, look
handsome even if they ain't washed or ironed,
and allow a human bean to work well. :-)

Patrick Turner.




>
> --
>
> John (john@os2.dhs.org)

[Hobbes@spnb&s.com]

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:23:12 GMT, Patrick Turner <info@turneraudio.com.au>
wrote:

>
>
>John Thompson wrote:
>>
>> ["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.tech.]
>> On 2008-04-01, Patrick Turner <info@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>> >
>> > Because every weak person can breed and have all the resulting
>> > weaknesses passed into a following generation, the species must be
>> > weakening as a whole as the generations pass and medical technology
>> > improves.
>>
>> No, that's not how it works. Natural selection is non-random, but
>> non-directed; it depends entirely on the local environment. Natural
>> selection is still there, just selecting for different traits than in
>> the past.
>
>We keep ppl alive who might have died 100 years ago before getting a
>chance to breed.
>But now they do breed, often in their late 30s or early 40s for the
>first time,
>and whatever is wrong with them is passed on.
>
>This isn't too bad a thing, because it makes ppl happy mostly.
>
>And the best things about these ppl are also passed on.
>
>The society values good things for itself such as doctors who can cure
>disease, and techs to make the PC work, so both get paid a lot and
>if youse are one or the other, it ain't too hard to find a gal who
>doesn't mind getting a little bit pregnant sometimes.
>
>But if youse is a tube amp tech, its almost dead impossible to find a
>wife.
>So my jeans won't be reproduced, and any facility I may have had with
>figuring out
>tube amps won't go into my offspring.
>
>Natural selection these days means youse get selected if youse got
>domani
>
>No got domani means your jeans will not be extended or blended with
>anyone else's jeans.
>
>We all have jeans which are a complex mix of many previous pairs all
>sewn together,
>and some jeans are impossible to wash or iron, and too tight around the
>waist,
>so we find a bin for those ones, while others are nice to wear, look
>handsome even if they ain't washed or ironed,
>and allow a human bean to work well. :-)
>
>Patrick Turner.

The movie Idiocracy should be mandatory. At least the first 15 minutes. All of
this is explained.

[John Henderson]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> We keep ppl alive who might have died 100 years ago before
> getting a chance to breed.
> But now they do breed, often in their late 30s or early 40s
> for the first time, and whatever is wrong with them is passed
> on.

Every cloud has a silver lining. This increases the total
variability in the species gene pool, making us more likely to
have survivors to new, unexpected biological threats.

In a very real sense, protecting the weak makes us stronger.

John

[Tom Sherman]

Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> [...]
> The society values good things for itself such as doctors who can cure
> disease, and techs to make the PC work, so both get paid a lot and
> if youse are one or the other, it ain't too hard to find a gal who
> doesn't mind getting a little bit pregnant sometimes.
>
> But if youse is a tube amp tech, its almost dead impossible to find a
> wife.[...]

The correct term for such women is "prostitute".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful