Headset dead spot?

[Williams]

[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
for that?]

It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
adjustment called for?

This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.

thanks,
Craig

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, "Williams" <cwillyATE@OOHAY.com>
wrote:

>[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>for that?]
>
>It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>adjustment called for?
>
>This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
>thanks,
>Craig

Dear Craig,

Most likely, your headset bearing races are pitted, with pits spaced
one ball apart.

It's a familiar problem known as indexed steering--the handlebar will
turn in small steps, as if indexed like a shift lever. It's exactly as
if there are the little detents that you describe because that's what
they are.

The fix is new bearings and races.

Here's an artificially dented headset:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, "Williams" <cwillyATE@OOHAY.com>
wrote:

>[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>for that?]
>
>It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>adjustment called for?
>
>This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
>thanks,
>Craig

Dear Craig,

Google Advanced Groups search seems to work.

Go here:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=&

Put in "indexed" for the text and rec.bicycles.tech for the group:

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=indexed&num=10&scoring=r&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=rec.bicycles.tech&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=2&as_maxm=4&as_maxy=2008&safe=off

Possibly you tried when Google was down briefly?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[daveornee]

Williams Wrote:
> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages,
> but
> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another
> tool
> for that?]
>
> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the
> front
> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a
> headset
> adjustment called for?
>
> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> thanks,
> Craig
10 co year waranty on Chris King headsets. If it it younger than 10
years For the an immediate answer, you may give customer and/or
technical service folks a call during normal business hours (8-5 on the
west coast.) at 800.523.6008 or 503.972.4050


--
daveornee

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Craig Williams wrote:

> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> there another tool for that?]

> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?

> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html

I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
favorites.

Jobst Brandt

[Teh bike guy]

This is common and easy to fix, just squirt some toothpaste (whitening
formulations work best) into the headset and ride around for a few miles,
it will become all smooth again, after that you can flush with water and
add grease.


On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, Williams wrote:

> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
> for that?]
>
> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> adjustment called for?
>
> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> thanks,
> Craig

[jim beam]

Williams wrote:
> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
> for that?]
>
> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> adjustment called for?
>
> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> thanks,
> Craig
>
>

probably the product of over-zealous fitting by the installer and
subsequent brinelling damage. c.k. headsets require a custom attachment
for the bearing press, and not everyone bothers to use one.

[landotter]

On Apr 2, 4:59*pm, "Williams" <cwilly...@OOHAY.com> wrote:
> [Note: *Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. *Is there another tool
> for that?]
>
> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). *Is a headset
> adjustment called for?
>
> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
Shimano STX headset: $20
One hour, two beers. Replace as needed. Price means that it'll blow
you away--after six months you'll go, "This $20 headset has been
smooth for 6 freaking' months, WooHoo!!!" instead of moaning about
warrantying some overpriced bit of bling.

[John Thompson]

On 2008-04-02, Williams <cwillyATE@OOHAY.com> wrote:

> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> adjustment called for?

"Indexed steering?"

The bottom race is probably damaged. A quick 'n' dirty fix is to replace
caged bearings with loose balls, adding one more ball so the balls don't
fall into the fretted craters so readily.

Another one is to pop off the crown race, rotate it a little, and
reinstall it, putting the craters in a different orientation.

Neither one of these is likely to provide long-term satisfaction; the
real fix is to replace the damaged parts with new ones.

--

John (john@os2.dhs.org)

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, "Williams" <cwillyATE@OOHAY.com>
wrote:

>[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>for that?]
>
>It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>adjustment called for?
>
>This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
>thanks,
>Craig

Dear Craig,

The usual fretting versus denting posts have appeared, emphasizing an
either-or approach and a firm belief that no variation exists between
different headsets.

A few pictures for the curious . . .

http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=250headsetdimplesve2.jpg

http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=250gheadsetdimplesrb9.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/21axwtf.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Rex Kerr]

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> The fix is new bearings and races.

A temporary fix that I have used (but absolutely do not recommend, so if
it falls apart and you crash it's not my fault!) is to replace the
bottom sets of bearings with a the next size up/down, whatever fits.
The headset will feel much smoother after that since the weight rests on
that set and it no longer falls into to detents.

--
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
- Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester. (~1892)

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <sg08v3tklrbmu1sj6umojtn7cttmohqf49@4ax.com>,
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:59:23 GMT, "Williams" <cwillyATE@OOHAY.com>
> wrote:
>
> >[Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> >the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
> >for that?]
> >
> >It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> >wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> >adjustment called for?
> >
> >This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
> >
> >thanks,
> >Craig
>
> Dear Craig,
>
> Most likely, your headset bearing races are pitted, with pits spaced
> one ball apart.
>
> It's a familiar problem known as indexed steering--the handlebar will
> turn in small steps, as if indexed like a shift lever. It's exactly as
> if there are the little detents that you describe because that's what
> they are.
>
> The fix is new bearings and races.
>
> Here's an artificially dented headset:
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg

Dear Carl:

fine photo of wanton bike-part destruction (sure, sure, in the name of
science...) but my curiosity is piqued by the rather curious artifact in
the top left of the photo.

No, not the dime. Further left.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[RicodJour]

On Apr 2, 7:01 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Craig Williams wrote:
> > [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> > messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> > there another tool for that?]
> > It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> > the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> > detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
> > This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> favorites.

Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited - OP
in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer to -
the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive load or
ambient conditions.

To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other 'resting
spots' as you rotate the handlebars?

R

[jim beam]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Craig Williams wrote:
>
>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
>> there another tool for that?]
>
>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>
>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> favorites.

not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.

http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm

separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.

furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

someone wrote:

>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works.
>>> Is there another tool for that?]

>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for? This is a Chris
>>> King threaded headset on a road bike.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html

>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to
>> your favorites.

> Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
> itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited -
> OP in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer
> to - the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive
> load or ambient conditions.

Brinell is a forceful indentation of a ball into a surface and it
leaves a shiny dimple the shape of the ball. Head bearing races are
eroded by fretting and have dimples that are neither shiny nor
spherical. They are causes by the balls rolling across their design
path in tiny excursions.

> To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other
> 'resting spots' as you rotate the handlebars?

They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
this damage occurs.

The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

Jobst Brandt

[Williams]

I appreciate the quick replies. There is only one dead spot at dead center.

Craig


"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:cffe89ec-a686-4d76-adda-04636dfcba10@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 2, 7:01 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Craig Williams wrote:
>> > [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>> > messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
>> > there another tool for that?]
>> > It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>> > the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>> > detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>> > This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>>
>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
>> favorites.
>
> Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
> itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited - OP
> in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer to -
> the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive load or
> ambient conditions.
>
> To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other 'resting
> spots' as you rotate the handlebars?
>
> R

[jim beam]

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone wrote:
>
>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works.
>>>> Is there another tool for that?]
>
>>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for? This is a Chris
>>>> King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to
>>> your favorites.
>
>> Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
>> itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited -
>> OP in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer
>> to - the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive
>> load or ambient conditions.
>
> Brinell is a forceful indentation of a ball into a surface and it
> leaves a shiny dimple the shape of the ball. Head bearing races are
> eroded by fretting and have dimples that are neither shiny nor
> spherical. They are causes by the balls rolling across their design
> path in tiny excursions.

so how do /you/ know which is which? did the o.p. sent you the headset
and you've had a chance to examine it? since in reality you have NOT
actually made these inspections, you're simply presenting underinformed
presumption as fact.


>
>> To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other
>> 'resting spots' as you rotate the handlebars?
>
> They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
> straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
> this damage occurs.
>
> The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
> fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

no it doesn't [you don't] because it [you] fails to recognize true
brinelling - something easily caused by overload.

[RicodJour]

On Apr 2, 7:48 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone wrote:
> >>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> >>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works.
> >>> Is there another tool for that?]
> >>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> >>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> >>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for? This is a Chris
> >>> King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
> >> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to
> >> your favorites.
>
> > Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
> > itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited -
> > OP in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer
> > to - the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive
> > load or ambient conditions.
>
> Brinell is a forceful indentation of a ball into a surface and it
> leaves a shiny dimple the shape of the ball. Head bearing races are
> eroded by fretting and have dimples that are neither shiny nor
> spherical. They are causes by the balls rolling across their design
> path in tiny excursions.

Brinell is a hardness test and leaves indentation as you mention.
Brinelling is the result of overloaded bearings and may or may not
leave identical impressions. Brinelling, whether 'true' or 'false',
of actual bearings in use does not happen in a single test at 3000 kg,
hence the markings will vary. The word migrated due to the similarity
in bearing race damage. As an example, if someone called you a
horse's ass, that does not mean you are an actual horse's ass, they
are just commenting on the similarity.

> > To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other
> > 'resting spots' as you rotate the handlebars?
>
> They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
> straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
> this damage occurs.
>
> The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
> fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

I am surprised that you were unable to decipher 'To the OP:'
correctly. It seemed straightforward when I wrote it...

R

[Werehatrack]

On 02 Apr 2008 23:48:10 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org may have
said:

>They occur at regular intervals, one ball space apart, but the
>straight ahead one is largest because that is the position in which
>this damage occurs.
>
>The bearing balls in the front and rear of the head bearing leave
>fretting impressions and I think the article explains that adequately.

I managed to return one such indexed headset to service (at least for
a while; it's now been a bit over 6 months) by the simple expedient of
replacing the caged balls with loose ones, and rotating the upper cup
90 degrees. Enough balls then bore on unworn spots to make the
assembly work fairly well; I don't know how long it will last, but for
a quick fix on a weekend when a replacement would have been hard to
come by, it served well.

If the original setup used loose balls, this probably wouldn't be as
effective since the cone might still line up in the disadvantageous
spot.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[Hugh Fenton]

"Teh bike guy" <tbg@tehbikeguy.com> wrote in message
news:1v3onfossrz97$.16e87511lvtu5.dlg@40tude.net.. .
> This is common and easy to fix, just squirt some toothpaste (whitening
> formulations work best) into the headset and ride around for a few miles,
> it will become all smooth again, after that you can flush with water and
> add grease.
>
>

On a vaguely similar topic.........

I've an old aluminium CADEX ALM1 where the (lubricated) seatpost keeps
slipping down slowly........ No, the clamp IS correctly adjusted AND the
seat tube isn't squeezed closed...but it still happens unless I overtension
the quick release (and I DO need one of these owing to the riding I do.)

A friend suggested that valve grinding paste would solve my
problem.........an inert grit to prevent movement embedded in a lubricant to
prevent seizure......

Comments??????

Hugh Fenton

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:40:41 GMT, "Williams" <cwillyATE@OOHAY.com>
wrote:

>I appreciate the quick replies. There is only one dead spot at dead center.
>
>Craig

Dear Craig,

Indexing is still the most likely cause, but maybe you have something
out of the ordinary.

If you do end up replacing the headset, pictures of the races would
probably interest the usual suspects in the indexed-steering threads.

If pictures are too much fuss, you can email me and I'll be glad to
pay the postage and put up some pictures.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Craig Williams wrote:

>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works.
>>>> Is there another tool for that?] It seems that my front wheel
>>>> steering has a "dead spot" such that the front wheel wants to
>>>> point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>>>> adjustment called for? This is a Chris King threaded headset on
>>>> a road bike.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html

>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to
>>> your favorites.

>> Why did you object to the word Brinell in that article? The term
>> itself is not at fault, nor was the - not surprisingly uncredited -
>> OP in describing the problem. That is what indexed headsets refer
>> to - the only question is whether it is Brinelling due to excessive
>> load or ambient conditions.

>> To the OP: is there a single dead spot, or do you find other
>> 'resting spots' as you rotate the handlebars?

> I appreciate the quick replies. There is only one dead spot at dead
> center.

If you consider what bearing balls do when cup and cone rotate, you
will see that bearing balls in a linear (roll case) move half the
distance the races move with respect to each other. For a circular
bearing the ratio is not as easily defined because the races travel in
a circular path so that the motion ratio is an odd function involving
the value pi.

Hence a rematch of balls to dimples when the inner race is rotated to
again be opposite the initial straight ahead dimple pattern, bearing
balls will not arrive at that location. However, moving the ball
complement a half space from the dimple position will not help because
they will move gradually to get back to that position.

Offsetting the outer and inner race so dimples are not opposite each
other won't help either because the dimple in one race is by itself a
preferred position and a new dimple will be generated in the other
race to match that location. This has all been done often before head
bearings with swiveling backing plate were introduced. As long as it
is adequately lubricated, tilting motions will be absorbed by it and
prevent bearing balls from fretting into the races.

Jobst Brandt

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:19:20 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Here's an artificially dented headset:
>> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg
>
>Dear Carl:
>
>fine photo of wanton bike-part destruction (sure, sure, in the name of
>science...) but my curiosity is piqued by the rather curious artifact in
>the top left of the photo.
>
>No, not the dime. Further left.

Dear Ryan,

Hmmm . . .

http://i31.tinypic.com/e9yzhi.jpg

It could be a modern version of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Holbein-ambassadors.jpg

Put one eye at the lower left edge of your screen and the anamorphic
blob turns into a skull:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Skull-Ambassadors.jpg

But it's more likely just an icon (a sort of red-faced Mr. Potato Head
with a yellow cap?) introduced by some shareware used to trim photos
made with the original $12.95 USB camera that led Fogel Labs down the
well-paved path to its present location.

It appears in several other priceless early works:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell2.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell2setup.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/C1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/C3.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <r5g8v39arf6m7gsl20vntjqall6ge7k9tp@4ax.com>,
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:19:20 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Here's an artificially dented headset:
> >> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell.jpg
> >
> >Dear Carl:
> >
> >fine photo of wanton bike-part destruction (sure, sure, in the name of
> >science...) but my curiosity is piqued by the rather curious artifact in
> >the top left of the photo.
> >
> >No, not the dime. Further left.
>
> Dear Ryan,
>
> Hmmm . . .
>
> http://i31.tinypic.com/e9yzhi.jpg
>
> It could be a modern version of this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Holbein-ambassadors.jpg
>
> Put one eye at the lower left edge of your screen and the anamorphic
> blob turns into a skull:
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Skull-Ambassadors.jpg
>
> But it's more likely just an icon (a sort of red-faced Mr. Potato Head
> with a yellow cap?) introduced by some shareware used to trim photos
> made with the original $12.95 USB camera that led Fogel Labs down the
> well-paved path to its present location.
>
> It appears in several other priceless early works:
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/brinell2.jpg

&c.

Well, that explanation was surprising, the creature is still confusing
(surprised they didn't at least use something that advertised their
software), and I learned about Holbein's remarkable painting.

Another good evening for Usenet.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Ben C]

On 2008-04-03, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Williams wrote:
>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>> for that?]
>>
>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>> adjustment called for?
>>
>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Craig
>>
>>
>
> probably the product of over-zealous fitting by the installer and
> subsequent brinelling damage. c.k. headsets require a custom attachment
> for the bearing press, and not everyone bothers to use one.

Do you mean they got brinelled as they were hammered into the frame?

That's one I've not heard. I thought in the usual "true brinelling"
version of events, the brinelling happens when you ride over a nasty
bump with the front wheel?

[unforgiven99@juno.com]

On Apr 2, 11:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > Craig Williams wrote:
>
> >> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> >> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> >> there another tool for that?]
>
> >> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> >> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> >> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>
> >> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> >http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>
> > I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> > favorites.
>
> not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
> significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
> contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.
>
> http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm
>
> separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
> never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
> different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
> separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.
>
> furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
> hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
> bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
> this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
> overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].

Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well. Have you
observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
prove overload, or are you just guessing?

[unforgiven99@juno.com]

On Apr 3, 4:28 am, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2008-04-03, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Williams wrote:
> >> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
> >> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
> >> for that?]
>
> >> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
> >> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
> >> adjustment called for?
>
> >> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>
> >> thanks,
> >> Craig
>
> > probably the product of over-zealous fitting by the installer and
> > subsequent brinelling damage. c.k. headsets require a custom attachment
> > for the bearing press, and not everyone bothers to use one.
>
> Do you mean they got brinelled as they were hammered into the frame?
>
> That's one I've not heard. I thought in the usual "true brinelling"
> version of events, the brinelling happens when you ride over a nasty
> bump with the front wheel?

No. He's implying that care may not have been taken to install the
headset with the races parallel - I'm inclined to believe that - and
thus the compressive load was concentrated on one ball. "True
brinelling" (This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
kludge together an effective meaning.) may seem likely when hitting a
bump, but the loads are rarely high enough. An impact that would
actually indent the races on a properly installed King headset would
shatter the riders wrists.

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-04-03, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Williams wrote:
>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous messages, but
>>> the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is there another tool
>>> for that?]
>>>
>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that the front
>>> wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a detent). Is a headset
>>> adjustment called for?
>>>
>>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>> probably the product of over-zealous fitting by the installer and
>> subsequent brinelling damage. c.k. headsets require a custom attachment
>> for the bearing press, and not everyone bothers to use one.
>
> Do you mean they got brinelled as they were hammered into the frame?

hammered or pressed. over-load is over-load, the bearings care not how
it occurs.


>
> That's one I've not heard. I thought in the usual "true brinelling"
> version of events, the brinelling happens when you ride over a nasty
> bump with the front wheel?

crashing will do it too.

[jim beam]

unforgiven99@juno.com wrote:
> On Apr 2, 11:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> Craig Williams wrote:
>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
>>>> there another tool for that?]
>>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>>>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
>>> favorites.
>> not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
>> significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
>> contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.
>>
>> http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm
>>
>> separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
>> never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
>> different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
>> separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.
>>
>> furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
>> hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
>> bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
>> this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
>> overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].
>
> Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
> more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.

not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.


> Have you
> observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
> prove overload, or are you just guessing?

how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
as the indentation itself?

[jim beam]

unforgiven99@juno.com wrote:<snip for clarity>

> An impact that would
> actually indent the races on a properly installed King headset would
> shatter the riders wrists.

that's simply presumption. [and presumption is not fact.]

fact: i've true-brinelled a headset in a crash - i rear-ended a car.
instant brinelling. no bones broken. no other damage to the bike.

[RicodJour]

On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>
> This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
> don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
> kludge together an effective meaning.

The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
bases pretty well.

Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
(or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."

R

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >
>
> > Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
> > more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.
>
> not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.

You're trying to get an awful lot of mileage out of the word
"largely." IOW, you get false brinelling with vibration. You don't
get false brinelling without vibration, even though oxygen is
present. And there's no practical way to keep oxygen out of your
headset. So which is more important?

Until we start inflating our headsets with the same miracle nitrogen
some folks use in tires, I'd say the physical vibration is the more
important factor.

> > Have you
> > observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
> > prove overload, or are you just guessing?
>
> how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
> especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
> as the indentation itself?

I take it the brief version of your answer is "No."

- Frank Krygowski

[unforgiven99@juno.com]

On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> > On Apr 2, 11:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>> Craig Williams wrote:
> >>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> >>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> >>>> there another tool for that?]
> >>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> >>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> >>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
> >>>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
> >>>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
> >>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> >>> favorites.
> >> not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
> >> significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
> >> contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.
>
> >>http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm
>
> >> separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
> >> never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
> >> different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
> >> separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.
>
> >> furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
> >> hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
> >> bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
> >> this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
> >> overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].
>
> > Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
> > more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.
>
> not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
>
> > Have you
> > observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
> > prove overload, or are you just guessing?
>
> how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
> especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
> as the indentation itself?

When a ball leaves an indentation in a piece of metal, the displaced
material needs to go somewhere. Now that material was either lost to
errosion (Jobst's theory), or it resulted in distortion of the
surrounding material (the result of your theory, whether or not you
choose to believe it). It's a simple question. Have you or have you
not made the observations to meet the sufficient conditions of what
you're telling us?

[unforgiven99@juno.com]

On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
> > don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
> > kludge together an effective meaning.
>
> The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
> all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
> purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
> then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
> resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
> bases pretty well.
>
> Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
> clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
> meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
> (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
>
> R

The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.

[jim beam]

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>> Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
>>> more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.
>> not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
>> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
>
> You're trying to get an awful lot of mileage out of the word
> "largely." IOW, you get false brinelling with vibration. You don't
> get false brinelling without vibration,

you know krygowski, for someone that masquerades as an engineering
professor, you look remarkably like a complete blathering idiot.

false brinelling is not simply a function of vibration, it's a function
of chemistry and load as well. loose bearings false brinell, pre-loaded
ones don't. bearings without oxygen don't false brinell. and to a
lesser extent, those benefiting from certain lubricants such as those
containing calcium sulfonate, either don't or only do so to a much
smaller degree.

conclusion: correct pre-load and correct lubricant is the practical
solution.


> even though oxygen is
> present. And there's no practical way to keep oxygen out of your
> headset. So which is more important?
>
> Until we start inflating our headsets with the same miracle nitrogen
> some folks use in tires, I'd say the physical vibration is the more
> important factor.

"you'd say" means you don't know your facts, you're simply guessing. idiot.


>
>>> Have you
>>> observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
>>> prove overload, or are you just guessing?
>> how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
>> especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
>> as the indentation itself?
>
> I take it the brief version of your answer is "No."

see above. idiot.

[RicodJour]

On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>
> > > This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
> > > don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
> > > kludge together an effective meaning.
>
> > The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
> > all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
> > purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
> > then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
> > resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
> > bases pretty well.
>
> > Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
> > clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
> > meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
> > (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
>
>
> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.

Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.

R

[jim beam]

unforgiven99@juno.com wrote:
> On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>> On Apr 2, 11:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>>> Craig Williams wrote:
>>>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
>>>>>> there another tool for that?]
>>>>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>>>>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>>>>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>>>>>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>>>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
>>>>> favorites.
>>>> not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
>>>> significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
>>>> contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.
>>>> http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm
>>>> separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
>>>> never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
>>>> different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
>>>> separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.
>>>> furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
>>>> hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
>>>> bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
>>>> this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
>>>> overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].
>>> Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
>>> more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.
>> not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
>> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
>>
>>> Have you
>>> observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
>>> prove overload, or are you just guessing?
>> how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
>> especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
>> as the indentation itself?
>
> When a ball leaves an indentation in a piece of metal, the displaced
> material needs to go somewhere.

indeed. that's why i carefully raised the point about the thickness of
the race.


> Now that material was either lost to
> errosion (Jobst's theory), or it resulted in distortion of the
> surrounding material (the result of your theory, whether or not you
> choose to believe it).

er, see above.


> It's a simple question. Have you or have you
> not made the observations to meet the sufficient conditions of what
> you're telling us?

actually, i have.

[Ben C]

On 2008-04-03, RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>
>> > > This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
>> > > don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
>> > > kludge together an effective meaning.
>>
>> > The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
>> > all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
>> > purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
>> > then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
>> > resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
>> > bases pretty well.
>>
>> > Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
>> > clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
>> > meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
>> > (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
>>
>>
>> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
>> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.
>
> Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
> I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
> flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
> messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
> test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
> bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
> percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
> lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
> create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
> indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
> good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.

Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
kind of corrosion/fretting process?

The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
prone to the false kind. So which kind actually happens (maybe both do)
is important.

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-04-03, RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>>>> This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
>>>>> don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
>>>>> kludge together an effective meaning.
>>>> The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
>>>> all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
>>>> purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
>>>> then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
>>>> resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
>>>> bases pretty well.
>>>> Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
>>>> clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
>>>> meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
>>>> (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
>>>
>>> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
>>> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.
>> Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
>> I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
>> flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
>> messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
>> test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
>> bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
>> percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
>> lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
>> create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
>> indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
>> good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.
>
> Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
> a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
> kind of corrosion/fretting process?
>
> The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
> expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
> prone to the false kind.

other way about.

> So which kind actually happens (maybe both do)
> is important.

[Michael Press]

In article <slrnfva8mq.e7.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:

> On 2008-04-03, RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > > This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
> >> > > don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
> >> > > kludge together an effective meaning.
> >>
> >> > The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
> >> > all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
> >> > purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
> >> > then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
> >> > resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
> >> > bases pretty well.
> >>
> >> > Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
> >> > clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
> >> > meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
> >> > (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
> >>
> >>
> >> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
> >> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.
> >
> > Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
> > I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
> > flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
> > messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
> > test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
> > bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
> > percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
> > lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
> > create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
> > indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
> > good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.
>
> Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
> a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
> kind of corrosion/fretting process?
>
> The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
> expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
> prone to the false kind. So which kind actually happens (maybe both do)
> is important.

A headset never deforms from a plastic deformation of
the race being struck by the bearing balls.

Periodic headset bearing race indentations form when the
assembly vibrates without turning the steering tube. The
oil between the bearing ball and the race is pumped out,
and the bare metal contact micro-welds and breaks again
and again. This can happen when a frame is locked in a
roof rack of a moving vehicle.

--
Michael Press

[unforgiven99@juno.com]

On Apr 3, 11:24 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>> On Apr 2, 11:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >>>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>>>> Craig Williams wrote:
> >>>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> >>>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> >>>>>> there another tool for that?]
> >>>>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> >>>>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> >>>>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
> >>>>>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
> >>>>>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
> >>>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> >>>>> favorites.
> >>>> not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
> >>>> significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
> >>>> contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.
> >>>>http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm
> >>>> separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
> >>>> never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
> >>>> different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
> >>>> separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.
> >>>> furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
> >>>> hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
> >>>> bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
> >>>> this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
> >>>> overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].
> >>> Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
> >>> more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.
> >> not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
> >> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
>
> >>> Have you
> >>> observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
> >>> prove overload, or are you just guessing?
> >> how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
> >> especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
> >> as the indentation itself?
>
> > When a ball leaves an indentation in a piece of metal, the displaced
> > material needs to go somewhere.
>
> indeed. that's why i carefully raised the point about the thickness of
> the race.
>

I'm not following. Does an incompressible solid become compressible
under your carefully raised set of circumstances? The full volume of
metal is either there or it's not. The thickness of the race does not
change this fact.


> > Now that material was either lost to
> > errosion (Jobst's theory), or it resulted in distortion of the
> > surrounding material (the result of your theory, whether or not you
> > choose to believe it).
>
> er, see above.
>
> > It's a simple question. Have you or have you
> > not made the observations to meet the sufficient conditions of what
> > you're telling us?
>
> actually, i have.

Where? So far you've alternately suggested that the disruption to the
surrounding free surfaces was too small to measure and carefully
raised the point that there is no disruption because of the race
thickness. Neither of these claims is true in any universe where mass
is conserved. If you want to present this to us as a case of purely
plastic deformation, you're going to have to show us where the
displaced metal went.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Apr 3, 11:25 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
> >> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
>
> > You're trying to get an awful lot of mileage out of the word
> > "largely." IOW, you get false brinelling with vibration. You don't
> > get false brinelling without vibration,
>
> false brinelling is not simply a function of vibration, it's a function
> of chemistry and load as well.

<sigh> A careful reader will note that I did not say false brinelling
is _only_ a function of vibration.

However, to simplify your "chemistry" argument a bit: The chemistry
is dependent on oxygen. If we wish to prevent false brinelling, we
can mitigate the effects of vibration, or we can remove all oxygen
from the neighborhood of the bearing. Which is more practical?

> loose bearings false brinell, pre-loaded ones don't.

Wrong.

- Frank Krygowski

[Ben C]

On 2008-04-04, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
[...]
>> Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
>> a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
>> kind of corrosion/fretting process?
>>
>> The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
>> expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
>> prone to the false kind.
>
> other way about.

I figure that if there's some up and down travel in the headset because
it's loose the bearings get a bigger knock when you hit a bump.

I think it's because if they're loose they're less protected by ability
of the tyre and fork to slow down the impact.

Suppose the front wheel is crashing back down to earth after a bump.
While it's in mid-air, the fork drops a bit because the headset is loose
and so there's a small gap between the bearings and the races. The tyre
hits the ground first and perhaps bounces up a bit but in any case the
bearings collide with the races directly.

If you plot force against time at the bearing for the impact I think you
get the same area for tight and loose headsets (total change of momentum
the same), but a shorter fatter shape with lower maximum force for the
tight headset. So perhaps less risk of true brinelling.

I think tight headsets are more likely to promote false brinelling
because if they're too tight they may prevent the balls rolling around
and the grease circulating.

On the other hand, increasing pre-load increases total load when you hit
a given bump, so I can see that too-tight could also promote true
brinelling.

And I suppose too loose could promote false brinelling if it meant all
the grease leaked out.

[jim beam]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <slrnfva8mq.e7.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
> Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
>
>> On 2008-04-03, RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
>>> On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>>> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>>>>> This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
>>>>>> don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
>>>>>> kludge together an effective meaning.
>>>>> The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
>>>>> all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
>>>>> purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
>>>>> then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
>>>>> resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
>>>>> bases pretty well.
>>>>> Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
>>>>> clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
>>>>> meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
>>>>> (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
>>>>
>>>> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
>>>> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.
>>> Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
>>> I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
>>> flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
>>> messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
>>> test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
>>> bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
>>> percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
>>> lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
>>> create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
>>> indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
>>> good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.
>> Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
>> a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
>> kind of corrosion/fretting process?
>>
>> The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
>> expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
>> prone to the false kind. So which kind actually happens (maybe both do)
>> is important.
>
> A headset never deforms from a plastic deformation of
> the race being struck by the bearing balls.

absolutely fundamentally incorrect.


>
> Periodic headset bearing race indentations form when the
> assembly vibrates without turning the steering tube. The
> oil between the bearing ball and the race is pumped out,
> and the bare metal contact micro-welds and breaks again
> and again. This can happen when a frame is locked in a
> roof rack of a moving vehicle.
>

it could. but given that bearings can also index immediately on one
single impact, the most you can say is that it's one potential
mechanism. supposition is not all-encompassing fact.

you also need to understand that /all/ of the bearings on a bike run at
speeds where there is direct metal-to-metal contact - _high_ speeds are
needed for elasto-hydrodynamic separation.

[Michael Press]

In article <QpSdnXuGV5ySMGjanZ2dnUVZ_ommnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <slrnfva8mq.e7.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
> > Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2008-04-03, RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>>> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>>>>> This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
> >>>>>> don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
> >>>>>> kludge together an effective meaning.
> >>>>> The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
> >>>>> all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
> >>>>> purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
> >>>>> then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
> >>>>> resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
> >>>>> bases pretty well.
> >>>>> Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
> >>>>> clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
> >>>>> meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
> >>>>> (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
> >>>>
> >>>> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
> >>>> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.
> >>> Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
> >>> I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
> >>> flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
> >>> messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
> >>> test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
> >>> bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
> >>> percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
> >>> lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
> >>> create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
> >>> indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
> >>> good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.
> >> Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
> >> a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
> >> kind of corrosion/fretting process?
> >>
> >> The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
> >> expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
> >> prone to the false kind. So which kind actually happens (maybe both do)
> >> is important.
> >
> > A headset never deforms from a plastic deformation of
> > the race being struck by the bearing balls.
>
> absolutely fundamentally incorrect.

Says you.

> > Periodic headset bearing race indentations form when the
> > assembly vibrates without turning the steering tube. The
> > oil between the bearing ball and the race is pumped out,
> > and the bare metal contact micro-welds and breaks again
> > and again. This can happen when a frame is locked in a
> > roof rack of a moving vehicle.
> >
>
> it could. but given that bearings can also index immediately on one
> single impact, the most you can say is that it's one potential
> mechanism. supposition is not all-encompassing fact.
>
> you also need to understand that /all/ of the bearings on a bike run at
> speeds where there is direct metal-to-metal contact - _high_ speeds are
> needed for elasto-hydrodynamic separation.

Sufficient but not necessary.
With the fork and frame locked down the bearing balls
do not rotate so oil does not migrate in to replenish
oil pumped out by vibration.

--
Michael Press

[jim beam]

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 3, 11:25 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
>>>> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
>>> You're trying to get an awful lot of mileage out of the word
>>> "largely." IOW, you get false brinelling with vibration. You don't
>>> get false brinelling without vibration,
>> false brinelling is not simply a function of vibration, it's a function
>> of chemistry and load as well.
>
> <sigh> A careful reader will note that I did not say false brinelling
> is _only_ a function of vibration.
>
> However, to simplify your "chemistry" argument a bit: The chemistry
> is dependent on oxygen. If we wish to prevent false brinelling, we
> can mitigate the effects of vibration, or we can remove all oxygen
> from the neighborhood of the bearing. Which is more practical?

you snip the "practical" solution i gave you, then you try to imply that
there isn't one??? you're a freakin' idiot krygowski.


>
>> loose bearings false brinell, pre-loaded ones don't.
>
> Wrong.
>

actually, i'm not. look it up. and you're still a freakin' idiot.

[jim beam]

unforgiven99@juno.com wrote:
> On Apr 3, 11:24 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>> On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 2, 11:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>>>>>> Craig Williams wrote:
>>>>>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
>>>>>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
>>>>>>>> there another tool for that?]
>>>>>>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
>>>>>>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
>>>>>>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
>>>>>>>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
>>>>>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
>>>>>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
>>>>>>> favorites.
>>>>>> not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
>>>>>> significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
>>>>>> contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.
>>>>>> http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm
>>>>>> separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
>>>>>> never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
>>>>>> different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
>>>>>> separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.
>>>>>> furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
>>>>>> hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
>>>>>> bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
>>>>>> this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
>>>>>> overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].
>>>>> Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
>>>>> more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.
>>>> not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
>>>> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
>>>>> Have you
>>>>> observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
>>>>> prove overload, or are you just guessing?
>>>> how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
>>>> especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
>>>> as the indentation itself?
>>> When a ball leaves an indentation in a piece of metal, the displaced
>>> material needs to go somewhere.
>> indeed. that's why i carefully raised the point about the thickness of
>> the race.
>>
>
> I'm not following.

i think you are. i also think you're [somewhat clumsily] trying to confuse.


> Does an incompressible solid become compressible
> under your carefully raised set of circumstances?

of course not.


> The full volume of
> metal is either there or it's not. The thickness of the race does not
> change this fact.

why did i raise the point about the thickness of the race? decoy?
bull****? or is it anything to do with the fact that you only get
positive displacement when the material under the ball is sufficiently
massive that the only way for plastic displacement to go is "up? if the
material is thin, like in a bike head set, the material can go pretty
much any way it wants, including "down".


>
>
>>> Now that material was either lost to
>>> errosion (Jobst's theory), or it resulted in distortion of the
>>> surrounding material (the result of your theory, whether or not you
>>> choose to believe it).
>> er, see above.
>>
>>> It's a simple question. Have you or have you
>>> not made the observations to meet the sufficient conditions of what
>>> you're telling us?
>> actually, i have.
>
> Where? So far you've alternately suggested that the disruption to the
> surrounding free surfaces was too small to measure and carefully
> raised the point that there is no disruption because of the race
> thickness. Neither of these claims is true in any universe where mass
> is conserved. If you want to present this to us as a case of purely
> plastic deformation, you're going to have to show us where the
> displaced metal went.
>

you either have no experience of this stuff or you're being a
bull****ter. true brinell testing requires significant material
thickness. look it up. and the reason is precisely that which you're
trying so hard to avoid.

[unforgiven99@juno.com]

On Apr 4, 11:49 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 11:24 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>> On Apr 3, 9:00 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >>>> unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Apr 2, 11:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>>>>>> Craig Williams wrote:
> >>>>>>>> [Note: Normally I would search the archives to find previous
> >>>>>>>> messages, but the Google Advanced Groups Search no longer works. Is
> >>>>>>>> there another tool for that?]
> >>>>>>>> It seems that my front wheel steering has a "dead spot" such that
> >>>>>>>> the front wheel wants to point straight ahead (like there is a
> >>>>>>>> detent). Is a headset adjustment called for?
> >>>>>>>> This is a Chris King threaded headset on a road bike.
> >>>>>>>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html
> >>>>>>> I think Google can find that one. Anyway, you might add that to your
> >>>>>>> favorites.
> >>>>>> not only is the premise of that article incorrect, it contains other
> >>>>>> significant inaccuracies. rotating bearings /do/ indeed have metallic
> >>>>>> contact up until the point of hydrodynamic separation.
> >>>>>>http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e12_3.htm
> >>>>>> separation only occurs at significant speed. at higher loads, it may
> >>>>>> never occur. for you to contend that headset bearings are somehow
> >>>>>> different from all the other bearings on a bike for which hydrodynamic
> >>>>>> separation also does /not/ occur, is both ignorant and misleading.
> >>>>>> furthermore, another poster to this group actually bothered to do
> >>>>>> hardness testing of some headset bearings and found that low hardness
> >>>>>> bearing races indexed quickly, while those with harder races didn't.
> >>>>>> this is entirely in accordance with indexing being the product of
> >>>>>> overload, [true brinelling] not "fretting" [false brinelling].
> >>>>> Only if you choose to look at it that way. A softer race will index
> >>>>> more easily than a harder on under Jobst's theory as well.
> >>>> not true. false brinelling is largely chemical, not physical - bearings
> >>>> don't false-brinell in oxygen-free environments.
> >>>>> Have you
> >>>>> observed raised areas around the dimples in your races that would
> >>>>> prove overload, or are you just guessing?
> >>>> how large do /you/ expect raised areas to be in a hardened steel?
> >>>> especially one where the race substrate is the same magnitude of depth
> >>>> as the indentation itself?
> >>> When a ball leaves an indentation in a piece of metal, the displaced
> >>> material needs to go somewhere.
> >> indeed. that's why i carefully raised the point about the thickness of
> >> the race.
>
> > I'm not following.
>
> i think you are. i also think you're [somewhat clumsily] trying to confuse.
>
> > Does an incompressible solid become compressible
> > under your carefully raised set of circumstances?
>
> of course not.
>
> > The full volume of
> > metal is either there or it's not. The thickness of the race does not
> > change this fact.
>
> why did i raise the point about the thickness of the race? decoy?
> bull****? or is it anything to do with the fact that you only get
> positive displacement when the material under the ball is sufficiently
> massive that the only way for plastic displacement to go is "up? if the
> material is thin, like in a bike head set, the material can go pretty
> much any way it wants, including "down".
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Now that material was either lost to
> >>> errosion (Jobst's theory), or it resulted in distortion of the
> >>> surrounding material (the result of your theory, whether or not you
> >>> choose to believe it).
> >> er, see above.
>
> >>> It's a simple question. Have you or have you
> >>> not made the observations to meet the sufficient conditions of what
> >>> you're telling us?
> >> actually, i have.
>
> > Where? So far you've alternately suggested that the disruption to the
> > surrounding free surfaces was too small to measure and carefully
> > raised the point that there is no disruption because of the race
> > thickness. Neither of these claims is true in any universe where mass
> > is conserved. If you want to present this to us as a case of purely
> > plastic deformation, you're going to have to show us where the
> > displaced metal went.
>
> you either have no experience of this stuff or you're being a
> bull****ter. true brinell testing requires significant material
> thickness. look it up. and the reason is precisely that which you're
> trying so hard to avoid.

Yes, the direction of displacement will depend on the exact boundary
conditions. I don't feel like doing the math, which is why I asked if
you, the self proclaimed expert on the topic, had made the
observation. Is there, or is there not, ANY deformation visible in
these headset races which would be consistent with your theory of
plastic deformation? It's not a hard question, but your transition to
childish name calling typically indicates that you aren't going to
answer it.

[jim beam]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <QpSdnXuGV5ySMGjanZ2dnUVZ_ommnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article <slrnfva8mq.e7.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
>>> Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2008-04-03, RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
>>>>>>>> don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
>>>>>>>> kludge together an effective meaning.
>>>>>>> The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
>>>>>>> all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
>>>>>>> purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
>>>>>>> then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
>>>>>>> resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
>>>>>>> bases pretty well.
>>>>>>> Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
>>>>>>> clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
>>>>>>> meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
>>>>>>> (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
>>>>>> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
>>>>>> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.
>>>>> Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
>>>>> I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
>>>>> flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
>>>>> messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
>>>>> test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
>>>>> bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
>>>>> percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
>>>>> lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
>>>>> create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
>>>>> indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
>>>>> good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.
>>>> Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
>>>> a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
>>>> kind of corrosion/fretting process?
>>>>
>>>> The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
>>>> expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
>>>> prone to the false kind. So which kind actually happens (maybe both do)
>>>> is important.
>>> A headset never deforms from a plastic deformation of
>>> the race being struck by the bearing balls.
>> absolutely fundamentally incorrect.
>
> Says you.

not "says me" - it's fact. bearings brinell. that's why bearing
manufacturers are so specific about installation processes that avoid
brinelling damage.


>
>>> Periodic headset bearing race indentations form when the
>>> assembly vibrates without turning the steering tube. The
>>> oil between the bearing ball and the race is pumped out,
>>> and the bare metal contact micro-welds and breaks again
>>> and again. This can happen when a frame is locked in a
>>> roof rack of a moving vehicle.
>>>
>> it could. but given that bearings can also index immediately on one
>> single impact, the most you can say is that it's one potential
>> mechanism. supposition is not all-encompassing fact.
>>
>> you also need to understand that /all/ of the bearings on a bike run at
>> speeds where there is direct metal-to-metal contact - _high_ speeds are
>> needed for elasto-hydrodynamic separation.
>
> Sufficient but not necessary.
> With the fork and frame locked down the bearing balls
> do not rotate so oil does not migrate in to replenish
> oil pumped out by vibration.
>

"pumped out"??? repetition of jobstian over-simplification does not
change the facts - bearings true brinell when over-loaded. end of story.

[frkrygow@gmail.com]

On Apr 5, 1:56 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
> >jim beam wrote:
>
> not "says me" - it's fact. bearings brinell. that's why bearing
> manufacturers are so specific about installation processes that avoid
> brinelling damage.
>
> > Sufficient but not necessary.
> > With the fork and frame locked down the bearing balls
> > do not rotate so oil does not migrate in to replenish
> > oil pumped out by vibration.
>
> "pumped out"??? repetition of jobstian over-simplification does not
> change the facts - bearings true brinell when over-loaded. end of story.

It's funny that jim beam would allude to what bearing manufacturers
say about installation, without bothering to look for what bearing
manufacturers say about false brinelling!

From SKF Bearing's FAQ on Bearing Usage:

"It is recommended that the shaft in a motor at standstill, and
subjected to vibrations, should be slowly rotated in order to avoid
damage to the bearings. Please clarify."

"When a bearing at standstill is subjected to vibrations the rolling
elements will be hammering on the same point of the raceway the whole
time. By this the lubricant will be pushed away and wear will occur
forming shallow depressions in the raceway. By rotating the shaft,
both the rolling elements and the inner ring will change position all
the time and the lubricant will stay in place. In this way this kind
of damage is prevented."

Start from www.skf.com and search a bit. You should be able to find
it, jim.

Are the bearing engineers at SKF deluded by "Jobstian
Oversimplification" too?

- Frank Krygowski

[Michael Press]

In article <btmdnTC9JqXaIGranZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <QpSdnXuGV5ySMGjanZ2dnUVZ_ommnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> > jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Press wrote:
> >>> In article <slrnfva8mq.e7.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
> >>> Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2008-04-03, RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Apr 3, 1:34 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Apr 3, 10:18 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Apr 3, 7:21 am, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> This, Ricod, is why professionals define their terms and
> >>>>>>>> don't let the definition migrate. We don't like using air quotes to
> >>>>>>>> kludge together an effective meaning.
> >>>>>>> The term has already migrated. Professionals use the migrated term
> >>>>>>> all of the time. Brinell is a test, so unless you test your bike by
> >>>>>>> purposefully overloading your bearings under controlled conditions,
> >>>>>>> then brinelling refers to the similarity in appearance of the
> >>>>>>> resulting damage. The modifiers true and false seem to cover the
> >>>>>>> bases pretty well.
> >>>>>>> Maintaining linguistic purity is admirable when it's attempting to
> >>>>>>> clarify communication, but once the word has gained or lost a certain
> >>>>>>> meaning, it's as ridiculous as 'correcting' someone saying Band-Aid
> >>>>>>> (or bandaid) by commenting, "You mean 'adhesive bandage'."
> >>>>>> The correction would not be ridiculous if you start using Band-Aid to
> >>>>>> refer to electrical tape and "true Band-Aid" to refer to a bandage.
> >>>>> Well, I've used every type of tape imaginable to create bandages, and
> >>>>> I've used electrical tape to bandage all sorts of things that aren't
> >>>>> flesh and blood, so that particular analogy is lost on me. Life is
> >>>>> messy like that. But let's take the subject at hand. Brinell is a
> >>>>> test performed under specific conditions. This cannot happen on a
> >>>>> bicycle except in a lab. I would venture that an entirely negligible
> >>>>> percentage of brinelled headsets, whether true or false, happens in a
> >>>>> lab. So why not say pitting and fretting or whatever words would
> >>>>> create the least mental turmoil for you? I don't like the phrase
> >>>>> indexed steering because that is too similar to indexed shifting (a
> >>>>> good thing to some) and will probably be a feature in SRAM Rainbow.
> >>>> Yes but the distinction here is important. Do you get those indents from
> >>>> a single big thump or overload, or are they gradually eaten away by some
> >>>> kind of corrosion/fretting process?
> >>>>
> >>>> The practical side of this is that a headset that's too loose I would
> >>>> expect to be more prone to true brinelling, one that's too tight more
> >>>> prone to the false kind. So which kind actually happens (maybe both do)
> >>>> is important.
> >>> A headset never deforms from a plastic deformation of
> >>> the race being struck by the bearing balls.
> >> absolutely fundamentally incorrect.
> >
> > Says you.
>
> not "says me" - it's fact. bearings brinell. that's why bearing
> manufacturers are so specific about installation processes that avoid
> brinelling damage.
>
>
> >
> >>> Periodic headset bearing race indentations form when the
> >>> assembly vibrates without turning the steering tube. The
> >>> oil between the bearing ball and the race is pumped out,
> >>> and the bare metal contact micro-welds and breaks again
> >>> and again. This can happen when a frame is locked in a
> >>> roof rack of a moving vehicle.
> >>>
> >> it could. but given that bearings can also index immediately on one
> >> single impact, the most you can say is that it's one potential
> >> mechanism. supposition is not all-encompassing fact.
> >>
> >> you also need to understand that /all/ of the bearings on a bike run at
> >> speeds where there is direct metal-to-metal contact - _high_ speeds are
> >> needed for elasto-hydrodynamic separation.
> >
> > Sufficient but not necessary.
> > With the fork and frame locked down the bearing balls
> > do not rotate so oil does not migrate in to replenish
> > oil pumped out by vibration.
> >
>
> "pumped out"??? repetition of jobstian over-simplification does not
> change the facts - bearings true brinell when over-loaded. end of story.

Bicycle headset bearing races do not suffer plastic deformation.
Nobody has ever presented photographic evidence.
Bicycle headset bearing races do suffer dimpling,
but it is never plastic deformation; it is always
a wear pattern consistent with micro-welding and
fracture.

--
Michael Press

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> not "says me" - it's fact. bearings brinell. that's why bearing
>> manufacturers are so specific about installation processes that
>> avoid brinelling damage.

>>> Sufficient but not necessary. With the fork and frame locked down
>>> the bearing balls do not rotate so oil does not migrate in to
>>> replenish oil pumped out by vibration.

>> "pumped out"??? repetition of jobstian over-simplification does
>> not change the facts - bearings true brinell when over-loaded. end
>> of story.

> It's funny that jim beam would allude to what bearing manufacturers
> say about installation, without bothering to look for what bearing
> manufacturers say about false Brinelling!

> From SKF Bearing's FAQ on Bearing Usage:

# It is recommended that the shaft in a motor at standstill, and
# subjected to vibrations, should be slowly rotated in order to avoid
# damage to the bearings. Please clarify.

# When a bearing at standstill is subjected to vibrations the rolling
# elements will be hammering on the same point of the raceway the
# whole time. By this the lubricant will be pushed away and wear will
# occur forming shallow depressions in the raceway. By rotating the
# shaft, both the rolling elements and the inner ring will change
# position all the time and the lubricant will stay in place. In this
# way this kind of damage is prevented.

Oh don't take that too seriously. The whole sham is about countering
what I explained the cause of head bearing damage or for that matter
explained what causes spoke failures or any other myth an lore of
bicycling that I have violated. Mine is a grand conspiracy to damage
religious beliefs of bicycle technology that must be countered
anywhere the issues are raised.

> Start from www.skf.com and search a bit. You should be able to find
> it, jim.

He doesn't want to know, you atheist!

> Are the bearing engineers at SKF deluded by "Jobstian
> Oversimplification" too?

Some people's lives are more complicated than yours and their school
years are too long ago to be contradicted today. The answers are
also in "Rolling Bearing Analysis" by Tedric Harris, a tome with more
information on bearings than most engineers want to know.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5322/is_200709/ai_n21300467

I suppose it takes an interest in tribology besides having had a brush
with metallurgy.

Jobst Brandt

[jim beam]

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 5, 1:56 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>> not "says me" - it's fact. bearings brinell. that's why bearing
>> manufacturers are so specific about installation processes that avoid
>> brinelling damage.
>>
>>> Sufficient but not necessary.
>>> With the fork and frame locked down the bearing balls
>>> do not rotate so oil does not migrate in to replenish
>>> oil pumped out by vibration.
>> "pumped out"??? repetition of jobstian over-simplification does not
>> change the facts - bearings true brinell when over-loaded. end of story.
>
> It's funny that jim beam would allude to what bearing manufacturers
> say about installation, without bothering to look for what bearing
> manufacturers say about false brinelling!
>
> From SKF Bearing's FAQ on Bearing Usage:
>
> "It is recommended that the shaft in a motor at standstill, and
> subjected to vibrations, should be slowly rotated in order to avoid
> damage to the bearings. Please clarify."

and the lubricant is?


>
> "When a bearing at standstill is subjected to vibrations the rolling
> element