Michael Shermer: The Doping Dilemma

[Jason Spaceman]

From the article:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* An alarming number of sports—baseball, football, track and
field, and especially cycling—have been shaken by doping scandals in
recent years.
* Among the many banned drugs in the cycling pharmacopoeia, the
most effective is recombinant erythropoietin (r-EPO), an artificial
hormone that stimulates the production of red blood cells, thereby
delivering more oxygen to the muscles.
* Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional
cyclists to dope: the drugs are extremely effective as well as
difficult or impossible to detect; the payoffs for success are high;
and as more riders use them, a “clean” rider may become so
noncompetitive that he or she risks being cut from the team.
* The game theory analysis of cycling can readily be extended to
other sports. The results show quantitatively how governing bodies and
antidoping agencies can most effectively target efforts to clean up
their sports.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read it at http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-dilemma















J. Spaceman

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <qjc8v3h2iaf0eg0g490ulaobmomahiugsn@4ax.com>,
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:

> From the article:

> * Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional
> cyclists to dope: the drugs are extremely effective as well as
> difficult or impossible to detect; the payoffs for success are high;
> and as more riders use them, a “clean” rider may become so
> noncompetitive that he or she risks being cut from the team.

> Read it at http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-dilemma

cynical rbr summary:

1) game theory
2) ???????
3) clean racing!

Less cynical summary:

Of "Neck" Shermer's five recommendations for creating clean racing, 1 is
honorable, 2 and 3 are essentially wishful thinking (as in, "maybe this
will work!") for a problem that needs a little less wishful thinking,
and 4 utterly depends on "the system of arbitration and appeals [being]
fair and trusted," which merely sounds impossible.

Recommendation 5 not only sounds workable, it sounds exactly like the
Chung Solution from sometime last year.

Of course, it depends on actually being able to detect doping, at least
occassionally. Furthermore, it doesn't seem to depend on 4, despite what
Shermer thinks, because the collective-punishment solution already
imposes the substantial penalty needed to discourage doping.

Unless, of course, the entire team decides to do it together in an
organized fashion.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Donald Munro]

Jason Spaceman wrote:
> * Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional
> cyclists to dope:

Lemond invented game theory after he finished with Finite Element
Analysis. Or was it Franklin ?

[rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com]

On Apr 2, 6:32 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
wrote:

> Read it athttp://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-dilemma

Perhaps Shermer knows something about game theory, but it doesn't show
in that particular article.

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

Typical Scientific American article pandering to the little knowledge
their readers have. In particular,
cyclists discovered doping long before mathematicians developed game
theory. Speaking of which,
I recall their cover picture of the Atlanta "Project 96" bikes, the
only interest being their $50,000 value
proving the magazine's "American" title.

-ilan

Jason Spaceman wrote:
> From the article:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> * An alarming number of sports�baseball, football, track and
> field, and especially cycling�have been shaken by doping scandals in
> recent years.
> * Among the many banned drugs in the cycling pharmacopoeia, the
> most effective is recombinant erythropoietin (r-EPO), an artificial
> hormone that stimulates the production of red blood cells, thereby
> delivering more oxygen to the muscles.
> * Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional
> cyclists to dope: the drugs are extremely effective as well as
> difficult or impossible to detect; the payoffs for success are high;
> and as more riders use them, a �clean� rider may become so
> noncompetitive that he or she risks being cut from the team.
> * The game theory analysis of cycling can readily be extended to
> other sports. The results show quantitatively how governing bodies and
> antidoping agencies can most effectively target efforts to clean up
> their sports.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Read it at http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-dilemma
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J. Spaceman

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Apr 3, 12:36*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> Recommendation 5 not only sounds workable, it sounds exactly like the
> Chung Solution from sometime last year.

There you go again, tripping on your "moralistic" desire to punish
offenders. Because, "#5" depends on #4, which you yourself admit is
wishful thinking.

> Of course, it depends on actually being able to detect doping, at least
> occassionally. Furthermore, it doesn't seem to depend on 4, despite what
> Shermer thinks, because the collective-punishment solution already
> imposes the substantial penalty needed to discourage doping.

Collective punishment has a long row to hoe when athletes know, or
even suspect, that someone is boosting and getting away with it.

> Unless, of course, the entire team decides to do it together in an
> organized fashion.

Which takes us right back to making bad rules and trying to cover up
for inept leadership with career-ending punishment.

Fair, impartial?

Yeah yeah, that's why Dickie Poo had to "get me a positive reader in
here".

Houston crime lab scandal. "Mismanaged" evidence, outright lying on
the witness stand in courts of law.

Conflict of interest with dope labs and organizing bodies. When is any
of that going to have "game theory" (gag me with two thousand words or
less)? --D-y

[rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com]

On Apr 2, 10:36 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Recommendation 5 not only sounds workable, it sounds exactly like the
> Chung Solution from sometime last year.

No it doesn't.

[Paul G.]

On Apr 3, 2:15 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jason Spaceman wrote:
> > * Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional
> > cyclists to dope:
>
> Lemond invented game theory after he finished with Finite Element
> Analysis. Or was it Franklin ?

Who cares! I'm sold! Where can I get some r-EPO? I wanna be a r-EPO
Man just so I can get up those @#%& hills!
-Paul

[Fabrizio Mazzoleni]

On Apr 3, 3:15*am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jason Spaceman wrote:
> > * * * Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional
> > cyclists to dope:
>
> Lemond invented game theory after he finished with Finite Element
> Analysis. Or was it Franklin ?

If you get the chance to hear Greg give a Symposium on
Surface and volume meshing algorithms or Anisotropic
mesh generation and adaptation jump at the opportunity !

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Apr 3, 10:36*am, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2:15 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jason Spaceman wrote:
> > > * * * Game theory highlights why it is rational for professional
> > > cyclists to dope:
>
> > Lemond invented game theory after he finished with Finite Element
> > Analysis. Or was it Franklin ?
>
> Who cares! I'm sold! Where can I get some r-EPO? *I wanna be a r-EPO
> Man just so I can get up those @#%& hills!
> -Paul

Don't forget the other items on the list, in therapeutic doses.

This is where some openness could help the population at large, as a
great deal of underground research has been done to find out what
really works and what doesn't. --D-y

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Apr 3, 10:55*am, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 2, 6:32 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Read it athttp://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-dilemma
>
> Perhaps Shermer knows something about game theory, but it doesn't show
> in that particular article.




Dumbass -


Sometimes I have a hard time believing SciAm employs him.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Hobbes@spnb&s.com]

On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:55:09 -0700 (PDT), rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:

>On Apr 2, 6:32 pm, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
>wrote:
>
>> Read it athttp://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-dilemma
>
>Perhaps Shermer knows something about game theory, but it doesn't show
>in that particular article.

Isn't "game theory" just a euphemism for "thinking **** through."

Okay, "the science of thinking **** through."

[rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com]

On Apr 3, 4:04 pm, Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:

> >Perhaps Shermer knows something about game theory, but it doesn't show
> >in that particular article.
>
> Isn't "game theory" just a euphemism for "thinking **** through."

Hmmm. I'd sort of say that math is the field of thinking **** through.
Nonetheless, in that particular article Shermer showed himself to be
neither a game theorist nor a mathematician.

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Apr 3, 6:14*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
> [C]yclists discovered doping long before mathematicians
> developed game theory.

http://pf.fastcompany.com/magazine/91/debunk.html

[Hobbes@spnb&s.com]

On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:24:12 -0700 (PDT), rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:

>On Apr 3, 4:04 pm, Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:
>
>> >Perhaps Shermer knows something about game theory, but it doesn't show
>> >in that particular article.
>>
>> Isn't "game theory" just a euphemism for "thinking **** through."
>
>Hmmm. I'd sort of say that math is the field of thinking **** through.
>Nonetheless, in that particular article Shermer showed himself to be
>neither a game theorist nor a mathematician.

I thought math was a language with a grammar for thinking **** through.

Shermer didn't think **** through.

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Apr 3, 6:24*pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 3, 4:04 pm, Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:
>
> > >Perhaps Shermer knows something about game theory, but it doesn't show
> > >in that particular article.
>
> > Isn't "game theory" just a euphemism for "thinking **** through."
>
> I'd sort of say that math is the field of thinking **** through.

The meaning of the word is is: ________________.