How hard is it to BUILD a touring bike?

[me@privacy.net]

Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
to school full time

Therefore money IS tight

BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
summer

I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
cheaper that is better somehow.

I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
back to work? I was even thinking I could use
components form a yard sale bike for now.

advice? how to get a good bike but do it in fashion
that makes sense given my financial constraints

I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
summer.... besides just touring and for fun

[landotter]

On Apr 4, 6:18*pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> to school full time
>
> Therefore money IS tight
>
> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> summer
>
> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> I'm wondering if I can build *bike cheaper or if not
> cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> back to work? *I was even thinking I could use
> components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> advice? *how to get a good bike but do it in *fashion
> that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> summer.... besides just touring and for fun

What did you end up paying for the Randonee? $700? There's no way
you'll build something better for cheaper. I'll whup out my
spreadsheet with rough figures of the cheapest ballpark prices, and
you'll see. Alternately, if you're in a good market, used can be an
option.

So lets say you shopped the bare bones sales:

Nashbar frame 200
Sun/deore wheels 150
stem 15
bar 25
bb 10
headset 20
post 15
saddle 20
barend shifters 60
brake levers 25
brake cables 6
brake housing 10
bar tape 10
crank xd300 50
Platfor pedal 25
front mech 15
rear mech 25
tubes 10
rim strips 7
tires 30
brakes 30

So, going on $850 and you've not built the bike yet, and are using
some lesser quality componentry than you get with a complete package.
If you know what you want--build. I find it's usually cheaper to buy a
whole bike and swap out a few bits--that's if you don't have a bucket
of parts in the garage already.

When you adjust for inflation--that Randonee (or the Surly, even) you
got is about as cheap as a quality touring bike's gonna run. Prices
will only go up as the dollar goes down.

[daveornee]

me@privacy.net Wrote:
> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> to school full time
>
> Therefore money IS tight
>
> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> summer
>
> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
> cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> back to work? I was even thinking I could use
> components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> advice? how to get a good bike but do it in fashion
> that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> summer.... besides just touring and for fun
Depending on your size, $900 total will bring you a Surly Long Haul
Trucker delivered to you. Not all sizes of the complete bicycle are are
available at that price, but some shopping will lead you to something
you can't duplicate.... or much improve on.


--
daveornee

[Werehatrack]

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:18:52 -0500, me@privacy.net may have said:

>Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
>to school full time
>
>Therefore money IS tight
>
>BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
>summer
>
>I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
>only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
>I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
>cheaper that is better somehow.
>
>I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
>I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
>grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
>back to work? I was even thinking I could use
>components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
>advice? how to get a good bike but do it in fashion
>that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
>I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
>right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
>summer.... besides just touring and for fun

First off, in my experience, a good-name older bike that can be had
for less than a quarter of the price of a current unit is generally a
much better value than a new bike, and a nifty-frame bike built with
third-rate new crap instead of decent kit will ride like a crappy,
cheap bike instead of a good one.

In your situation, I'd be looking for a respectable older bike with a
reasonably light frame and obsolete but good-quality gruppo that I
could take my time upgrading to where I wanted it.

In point of fact, I am doing just that with a Trek 640; sure, it'll
never be as light as a Madone, but I hardly think that the four-figure
difference in the amount I would have to spend is justified when my
riding isn't at the level where bleeding-edge techie goodness is going
to win me anything.

If your needs are mostly for transport rather than competition, and if
a given bike gets you where you need to go, then in the long run it's
probably good enough.

My recipe for a touring bike: Find an older roadie with eyelets, slap
on slightly wider tires and a touring rder and cassette, add
accessories as their need presents itself, and otherwise just keep
pedalling.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[datakoll]

requires mechanical curiosity finding out what to replace. replace
what wears out or gives problems. with what? MONEY! abt $4-500. like I
wrote: new tubes, saddle mods, new saddle. racks. theres a rack site
but ply over a good rack is best.
test-EG load rack on new TT and slalom. does the rack snap?
buy a Safari

[bigjimpack@gmail.com]

For $600 you can get a decent touring bike with free shipping and very
minor assembly

http://bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/tourist.htm

This may be exactly what you need. Supposedly this is the same as the
Fuji touring and is coparable to the Trek touring both of whih cost
more $$$

On Apr 4, 7:18*pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> to school full time
>
> Therefore money IS tight
>
> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> summer
>
> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> I'm wondering if I can build *bike cheaper or if not
> cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> back to work? *I was even thinking I could use
> components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> advice? *how to get a good bike but do it in *fashion
> that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> summer.... besides just touring and for fun

[DougC]

me@privacy.net wrote:
> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> to school full time
>
> Therefore money IS tight
>
> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> summer
>
> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
> cheaper that is better somehow.
>

Well first you would have to say what is "better".
The price tag of the parts indicating which is better, I am not
convinced. More money usually buys less weight, but not much beyond that
once you get a couple levels above the lowest-end part.

----

A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry difference
with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really.

If ultimate comfort is the goal, then get a recumbent. You'll wonder how
you ever put up with riding an upright.

----

And don't expect to buy any nice bike and then leave it locked up around
town, get a yard-sale dog for that, and stick some cheap Wal-mart rack
on it. It doesn't need to be perfect, you won't take long rides on it
anyway.
~

[russellseaton1@yahoo.com]

In a post below you mention owning a bicycle right now. So if you
start touring with it, you will have a touring bike. You mention
having no job, yet you are thinking up ways to spend money on a bike.
What an odd world. On the internet you can likely find various ways
of hauling what you need to haul with your current bike. Or it will
dictate that you trim down what you actually haul. Start with short
tours and fgure it out.



On Apr 4, 6:18*pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> to school full time
>
> Therefore money IS tight
>
> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> summer
>
> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> I'm wondering if I can build *bike cheaper or if not
> cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> back to work? *I was even thinking I could use
> components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> advice? *how to get a good bike but do it in *fashion
> that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> summer.... besides just touring and for fun

[Woland99]

On Apr 4, 6:18 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> to school full time
>
> Therefore money IS tight
>
> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> summer
>
> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
> cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> back to work? I was even thinking I could use
> components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> advice? how to get a good bike but do it in fashion
> that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> summer.... besides just touring and for fun

One thing you should probably consider in touring bike is
ergonomics. You do not want to ride long distances on bike
that does not fit. I do not think that saving 170 bucks
getting that Windsor is worth it. But - if you really dislike
Randonee then I guess that is good enough reason to keep looking.
I thing that perhaps keeping it for few months and searching on
ctaigs is a better tactic than getting something that has worse
components and costs couple hundred less.

[daveornee]

me@privacy.net Wrote:
> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> to school full time
>
> Therefore money IS tight
>
> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> summer
>
> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
> cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> back to work? I was even thinking I could use
> components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> advice? how to get a good bike but do it in fashion
> that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> summer.... besides just touring and for fun
Take what you have and ride it, tour with it, EVERYWHERE.
You will see lots of interesting things, people, and see what they
ride... and even talk to them as to what they have seen, what roads to
take (& avoid), where to eat, where to sleep, etc. As you go you will
form your own likes and dislikes about the bicycle, hills, sun, rain,
wide tires, fenders (or not), etc.
Take a look around the country and you will learn lots. I have ridden
over 500,000 miles now and I am still learning and still enjoying the
process. The bicycle you choose (or come to like) will be only a small
part of the equation.


--
daveornee

[me@privacy.net]

landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

>What did you end up paying for the Randonee? $700? There's no way
>you'll build something better for cheaper.

Ok what abt building something better then?

IOW.... possible to buy a GOOD touring fame and put
junk components on it for now so that I can upgrade
later and have a REALLY good touring bike?

also...another option for poor person like me
maybe..... I have an old Ross MTB..actually pretty
decent frame ..4130 chromoly frame. I bought it used
from a friend for $25 who NEVER rode it. Looking at
it.... I'm wondering if I could use this frame and buy
some decent components and "make" a touring bike OUT of
it. Again the goal is to not send a ton of
money.....maybe less than $200 for parts?

I'm just kicking around ideas..... I'm really second
guessing the $700 for the Novara given my financial
situation. If I could make a touring bike out of the
Ross for $200... that gives me $500 for other gear I
don't have but need...clothing, tent, bag, etc.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<95dc192f-4996-451d-ab16-ee80b6f525e4@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 4, 6:18*pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> > Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> > to school full time
> >
> > Therefore money IS tight
> >
> > BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> > summer
> >
> > I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> > only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> > I'm wondering if I can build *bike cheaper or if not
> > cheaper that is better somehow.

> > advice? *how to get a good bike but do it in *fashion
> > that makes sense given my financial constraints
> >
> > I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> > right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> > summer.... besides just touring and for fun
>
> What did you end up paying for the Randonee? $700? There's no way
> you'll build something better for cheaper. I'll whup out my
> spreadsheet with rough figures of the cheapest ballpark prices, and
> you'll see. Alternately, if you're in a good market, used can be an
> option.
>
> So lets say you shopped the bare bones sales:
[...]
> So, going on $850 and you've not built the bike yet,

Landotter is right, but both "me" and he skirt the most fundamental
choice:

cheap used bikes.

Do you know what important technology has changed on touring bicycles in
the last 20 years? None at all.

The very best sources for old, cheap, touring-capable bikes are 1)
garage sales/friends, 2) Craigslist, 3) used-bike shops etc.

Note that eBay doesn't enter into this, because we're looking for a bike
so cheap that the shipping costs would exceed the price.

Also, availability depends entirely on chance and where you are. Finding
early-80s touring/road bikes is easy in metropolitan areas or places
with a strong bike culture or a lot of population. It's harder if you're
in Montana.

If you can hit a lot of garage sales and have a few weeks to acquire a
bike, you've got a fighting chance.

Downsides to buying used bikes: you have to know what you're looking for
and at. You have to be a bit lucky. You are investing time instead of
money into your search. You will not find one. You will find too many,
and buy more than one. It will break. It will need TLC. It will have
been better that you had just bought new.

Not dissuaded? Good! Here's the key pointers to buying a touring bike as
nice as the Miyata 210 I acquired for $20:

-The only real, fundamental key to buying a used road (includes touring)
bike is to get one with aluminum rims. If it has steel rims, the chances
of being a decent bike in other ways is nearly zero.

-the sweet-era is around the early-80s. These bikes include the tail end
of the touring bike boom (look for cantis or standard-reach brakes) and
the middle of the peak of Suntour.

-Yes, Suntour. In the 5-6 speed era, Suntour drivetrains are the way to
go. Shimano didn't technologically surpass them until indexed shifting
(which depended on Suntour's patented slant-parallelogram design, and
which wasn't released until the Suntour patent expired).

-that's it. I don't know all the good brand names of the era, but Miyata
is a company that produced excellent touring bikes, but whose cachet is
not ridiculously high (unlike, say, finding an early Trek 520, or a few
of the other names to conjure with). In general, I think the Japanese
frame-makers offered the best value-for-dollar in this era, by mostly
building first-rate bikes at cut-rate prices.

-don't fear 27" bikes unless you have a wealth of 700c choices. These
things are shunned for their odd wheel size, but that odd tire is still
available at every bike shop on this continent, plus Wal-Mart. Also, the
rims are readily available, and dirt-cheap. I needed a new rear 27"
wheel after a bike crash, and the cost (with a sturdy rim) was $40,
available next day.

-at garage sales, start with the premise that no bike is worth more than
$20. If the vendor is offering the bike for $100, offer $10 and see what
happens. In the case of my Miyata, it was offered for $40 or so, until I
pointed out that the freewheel was spilling its tiny bearings
everywhere. This spectacular (but easily corrected) failure destroyed
the vendor's bargaining position.

-I have scavenged good bikes out of Spring Cleaning Week, paid $10 for a
Japanese Bianchi, paid $3 for a 1970s Motobecane tourer (I'd sell the
frame to you, but shipping...), and with the permission of a bike shop,
picked a pristine Nishiki up that was leaning against their dumpster
after the former owner failed to interest them in its purchase. Nishiki
later sold to a very happy new owner for about $100. These stories are
told for your inspiration, but keep in mind I'm pretty obsessed with
bikes and garage sales, and these represent the peaks of about five
years of scavenging. I'm happy if I pick up one really nice bike a year.

Now that you've got the bike:

-check and probably replace brakes and tires, because the rubber was bad
from the start or is deteriorating. The chain will be fine, because the
original owner rode the bike only three times.

-the arguable weakness of these bikes is freewheel rear axles.
Lightweights and light tourers never have problems, heavyweights and
heavy tourers can. Chalo has some insight on how to fix the design, and
swears by freewheel hubs and axles, but he does his own machining. For
the rest of us, my proposal is that you ride it until it breaks (which
may well be never) and then buy the cheapest freehub rear wheel you can.
The cheapest ones are heavy and have lots of spokes, which is what you
want anyways. In order to avoid upgrading your shifters to indexed, buy
a 7-speed cassette ($16 at REI) and a 4.5 mm spacer for your 8-9-10
freehub rear wheel. Don't forget a new chain.

-As it happens, the single slickest shifting upgrade for an old
friction-shifting bike is a Hyperglide freewheel or cassette. Indexing
is not necessary to take advantage of the smooth shifting of a 6- or
7-speed Hyperglide stack-o-cogs. Some of the Hyperglide clones are
pretty good, too. Also, the Mega-7 freewheels offer so much range with
their big MegaRange low gears that even a bike with only a double ring
can become a half-competent tourer. Your hills and fitness may vary.

I would budget $100-200 for this project, plus every weekend for a month.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Mark]

landotter wrote:
> On Apr 4, 6:18 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>> Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
>> to school full time
>>
>> Therefore money IS tight
>>
>> BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
>> summer
>>
>> I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
>> only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
>> I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
>> cheaper that is better somehow.
>>
>> I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
>> I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
>> grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
>> back to work? I was even thinking I could use
>> components form a yard sale bike for now.
>>
>> advice? how to get a good bike but do it in fashion
>> that makes sense given my financial constraints
>>
>> I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
>> right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
>> summer.... besides just touring and for fun
>
> What did you end up paying for the Randonee? $700? There's no way
> you'll build something better for cheaper. I'll whup out my
> spreadsheet with rough figures of the cheapest ballpark prices, and
> you'll see. Alternately, if you're in a good market, used can be an
> option.
>
> So lets say you shopped the bare bones sales:
>
> Nashbar frame 200
> Sun/deore wheels 150
> stem 15
> bar 25
> bb 10
> headset 20
> post 15
> saddle 20
> barend shifters 60
> brake levers 25
> brake cables 6
> brake housing 10
> bar tape 10
> crank xd300 50
> Platfor pedal 25
> front mech 15
> rear mech 25
> tubes 10
> rim strips 7
> tires 30
> brakes 30
>
> So, going on $850 and you've not built the bike yet, and are using
> some lesser quality componentry than you get with a complete package.
> If you know what you want--build. I find it's usually cheaper to buy a
> whole bike and swap out a few bits--that's if you don't have a bucket
> of parts in the garage already.
>
> When you adjust for inflation--that Randonee (or the Surly, even) you
> got is about as cheap as a quality touring bike's gonna run. Prices
> will only go up as the dollar goes down.

Landotter got it right. I've penciled this sort of project out many
times - it's never cheaper to buy in parts. Do it only if the bike you
want isn't available complete. The exception is if you have a source of
dirt cheap (or free) used parts that make up a /major/ fraction of the
parts list. Even then, make sure they are all inter-compatible
(different frames require different spec. parts) before you commit your $.

Mark J.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <49idv356i3c79l8l05dvbch3emqpoqmg2k@4ax.com>, me@privacy.net
wrote:

> landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >What did you end up paying for the Randonee? $700? There's no way
> >you'll build something better for cheaper.
>
> Ok what abt building something better then?
>
> IOW.... possible to buy a GOOD touring fame and put
> junk components on it for now so that I can upgrade
> later and have a REALLY good touring bike?
>
> also...another option for poor person like me
> maybe..... I have an old Ross MTB..actually pretty
> decent frame ..4130 chromoly frame. I bought it used
> from a friend for $25 who NEVER rode it. Looking at
> it.... I'm wondering if I could use this frame and buy
> some decent components and "make" a touring bike OUT of
> it. Again the goal is to not send a ton of
> money.....maybe less than $200 for parts?

Yes you could. Do you have a rigid fork for it? Decide if you really
want to have drop bars or flat bars, and then just use whatever you can
scrounge or eBay or garage-sail.

> I'm just kicking around ideas..... I'm really second
> guessing the $700 for the Novara given my financial
> situation. If I could make a touring bike out of the
> Ross for $200... that gives me $500 for other gear I
> don't have but need...clothing, tent, bag, etc.

Here's what I'm here to tell you: a touring bike ain't nothing special,
except reasonably durable and not so heavy that you hate riding it. MTBs
make great touring bikes, doubly so for shorter riders, who have
off-putting toe-overlap issues with 700c wheels. They don't need the
latest number of gears, brifters, or carbon frames to make them better.
They're just bikes with some good low gears and a sturdy frame.

This isn't to disparage new touring bikes, which are lovely to ride and
available at sensible prices. But if I was going touring, I would be
much happier cheaping out (within certain very specific constraints) on
the bike than stuff like the sleeping bag, tent, or even saddlebags.

Well, okay, I did find a set of Serratus bags at a garage sale for $25
one time.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[landotter]

On Apr 4, 8:15*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> -As it happens, the single slickest shifting upgrade for an old
> friction-shifting bike is a Hyperglide freewheel or cassette. Indexing
> is not necessary to take advantage of the smooth shifting of a 6- or
> 7-speed Hyperglide stack-o-cogs. Some of the Hyperglide clones are
> pretty good, too. Also, the Mega-7 freewheels offer so much range with
> their big MegaRange low gears that even a bike with only a double ring
> can become a half-competent tourer. Your hills and fitness may vary.
>
> I would budget $100-200 for this project, plus every weekend for a month.

Sure if ya got a starter bike, add a hundred bucks of bits and you're
on the road. Rigid mtbs are even easier to source than touring bikes,
which even in this city of a mill, are pretty rare to find cheap (at
least in a 60cm). Take a $15 thriftstore Rockhopper, upgrade it to
hyperglide for cheap, and add tires, trekking bars, and your choice of
accessories--and you've got an expedition worthy touring bike.

Got some square plastic buckets? Make your own panniers as well:
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1gci&doc_id=1841&v=v

[Dan O]

On Apr 4, 9:20 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:18:52 -0500, m...@privacy.net may have said:
>
>
>
> >Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> >to school full time
>
> >Therefore money IS tight
>
> >BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> >summer
>
> >I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> >only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> >I'm wondering if I can build bike cheaper or if not
> >cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> >I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> >I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> >grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> >back to work? I was even thinking I could use
> >components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> >advice? how to get a good bike but do it in fashion
> >that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> >I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> >right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> >summer.... besides just touring and for fun
>
> First off, in my experience, a good-name older bike that can be had
> for less than a quarter of the price of a current unit is generally a
> much better value than a new bike, and a nifty-frame bike built with
> third-rate new crap instead of decent kit will ride like a crappy,
> cheap bike instead of a good one.
>
> In your situation, I'd be looking for a respectable older bike with a
> reasonably light frame and obsolete but good-quality gruppo that I
> could take my time upgrading to where I wanted it.
>
> In point of fact, I am doing just that with a Trek 640; sure, it'll
> never be as light as a Madone, but I hardly think that the four-figure
> difference in the amount I would have to spend is justified when my
> riding isn't at the level where bleeding-edge techie goodness is going
> to win me anything.
>
> If your needs are mostly for transport rather than competition, and if
> a given bike gets you where you need to go, then in the long run it's
> probably good enough.
>
> My recipe for a touring bike: Find an older roadie with eyelets, slap
> on slightly wider tires and a touring rder and cassette, add
> accessories as their need presents itself, and otherwise just keep
> pedalling.
>

I'm using an '87 Trek 400 - not so much for touring, per se, but for
my 10-25 mile (x2 daily) commute. It cost me $109 on ebay plus
another $45 shipping. So far it does get me there and here again, and
feels pretty good chewing up the miles. I figure on upgrading
components as they need replaced, or as suitable ones happen to come
along.

[me@privacy.net]

datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>requires mechanical curiosity finding out what to replace. replace
>what wears out or gives problems. with what? MONEY! abt $4-500. like I
>wrote: new tubes, saddle mods, new saddle. racks. theres a rack site
>but ply over a good rack is best.
>test-EG load rack on new TT and slalom. does the rack snap?
>buy a Safari

I wish I cold understand your posts

[landotter]

On Apr 5, 7:21*am, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >requires mechanical curiosity finding out what to replace. replace
> >what wears out or gives problems. with what? MONEY! abt $4-500. like I
> >wrote: new tubes, saddle mods, new saddle. racks. theres a rack site
> >but ply over a good rack is best.
> >test-EG load rack on new TT and slalom. does the rack snap?
> >buy a Safari
>
> I wish I cold understand your posts

The oracle was quite clear in that post. Open your mind to the truth!

[me@privacy.net]

bigjimpack@gmail.com wrote:

>For $600 you can get a decent touring bike with free shipping and very
>minor assembly
>
>http://bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/tourist.htm
>
>This may be exactly what you need. Supposedly this is the same as the
>Fuji touring and is coparable to the Trek touring both of whih cost
>more $$$

That is a pretty good deal. I've looked at it in the
past.

At $600 it even includes free shipping to 48 states....
not bad at all

I paid $770 for the Novara Randonee...... plus abt $20
gas to drive to get it. So I guess the Windsor would
have saved me $200 I could have spent on gear and
clothing. Hmmm....

Still.... I keep thinking I could cabbage some thing
together with the $25 Ross MTB frame I have.... and
have more money for shoes, tent, gear

Choices choices.... especially hard when money is low

[bigjimpack@gmail.com]

A Ross bike is pretty much a POS even when new. For a beater in a
city it would work but for real riding I would choose the Windsor Tour
or such. The frame is the heart of a bike so it is better to get a
decent frame and repalce bits as they wear or money warrants. EBAY
has some Cannondale touring bikes right now and they will serve you
for a lifetime of use.

On Apr 5, 10:21*am, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >For $600 you can get a decent touring bike with free shipping and very
> >minor assembly
>
> >http://bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/tourist.htm
>
> >This may be exactly what you need. *Supposedly this is the same as the
> >Fuji touring and is coparable to the Trek touring both of whih cost
> >more $$$
>
> That is a pretty good deal. I've looked at it in the
> past.
>
> At $600 it even includes free shipping to 48 states....
> not bad at all
>
> I paid $770 for the Novara Randonee...... plus abt $20
> gas to drive to get it. So I guess the Windsor would
> have saved me $200 I could have spent on gear and
> clothing. Hmmm....
>
> Still.... I keep thinking I could cabbage some thing
> together with the $25 Ross MTB frame I have.... and
> have more money for shoes, tent, gear
>
> Choices choices.... especially hard when money is low

[Patrick Lamb]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:21:05 -0500, me@privacy.net wrote:
>bigjimpack@gmail.com wrote:
>>For $600 you can get a decent touring bike with free shipping and very
>>minor assembly
>>
>>http://bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/tourist.htm
>>
>>This may be exactly what you need. Supposedly this is the same as the
>>Fuji touring and is coparable to the Trek touring both of whih cost
>>more $$$
>
>That is a pretty good deal. I've looked at it in the
>past.
>
>At $600 it even includes free shipping to 48 states....
>not bad at all
>
>I paid $770 for the Novara Randonee...... plus abt $20
>gas to drive to get it. So I guess the Windsor would
>have saved me $200 I could have spent on gear and
>clothing. Hmmm....
>
>Still.... I keep thinking I could cabbage some thing
>together with the $25 Ross MTB frame I have.... and
>have more money for shoes, tent, gear
>
>Choices choices.... especially hard when money is low

Used might be great, or might not be. It would be better if you had a
basement full of parts, and a shop full of tools, and your time was
worth nothing -- oh wait, if you're a student, you fit the time part.
Hard to say how good a used bike is unless you've built up the
wrenching experience to eyeball it (and fix the bike if you're wrong).
If you want to ride a bike a lot, enjoy your Randonee. If you'd
rather fret over every dollar than ride, you can entertain the buy
used or build it up idea. You pay your money, you take your choice!

My crystal ball says you'll return the Randonee, spend a lot of time
(and money) over the summer trying to get a cheap bike and make it
work, and late in the year bemoan the fact that you didn't get to ride
as much as you thought you would.

Pat
Email address works as is.

[datakoll]

an economic downturn is upon us, bike prices are going down down down

there are several misconpcetions herein:

OLD USED FRAMES nothing changed ? au contare Kent. Surly you jest?

most older frames are in the sports-tourer category. chain stays are
long enough but forks give a too sharp steering response for long
distance riding: jiggler jigggle jiggle all day and State Park is
another 3 miles down the road. It's tiring fighting the wheel.

you can moderate the steering adding wider tires ahhh but the frame
doesn't take wider tires does it? bring your metric ruler.

the brakes are no good. replace with sidepulls. replacement requires
mechanical skills.

27" TOURING TIRES ARE EXTINCT. NADA. NOMORE. replace with double
chamber 700c and deore hubs. while there replace the brakes. and brake
pads.

The Surly prices are good. Is this SURLYWEEK?

NEVER BUY A CHEAP BIKE WITHOUT DEORE HUBS.

The big deal is top tube size. The knees must roll over the CR circle
and not push straight down on the pedals while inside thighs clear
saddle sides.

The price list is accurate but double+ the tires and tubes then add
$100 for a saddle. Racks? rack lugs? if you spot a $10 carbon steel
frame with lugs, buy it for the lugs alone. use new and correctly
toothed hacksaw carefully from a filed start.

need bags? see Peter White Cycles for designs then sew urown thru
Seattle Fabrics. talk abt saving $$$ !!! buy duffels from
Campmor.com, cover when wet with Seattle Fabrics.

adding ply sides to a rack allows duffels et al to net and shock cord
against the ply-eliminating fancy hardware wet dreams.

buy solid axles from Wheels MFG/Jenson-longer than stock.

looks like if REI sells Rad and Safari's with deore hubs then itsa
battle otherwise... the Surly is rackless. does the Rad and Safari
sport rack lugs?

[datakoll]

buying the used $25 crome-moly lugged 27" 'touring frame'?
so what you get is mechanical self reapir knowledge
and Surly/Rad frame savings - $25
and all first class low cost components - nooooooooo 'cost savers'

that is a GOOD DEAL.

i ride one, a RAMPART now 700c

cheep asian import as Shedlon called it

the frame began USA life in Oregon in '87 then to SF then to Fort
Myers FL where I bought it after a candiate stole muh Mom's redone
Raleigh.

[Michael Press]

In article <09SJj.1331$9r.1226@newsfe07.lga>,
DougC <dcimper@norcom2000.com> wrote:

> A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry difference
> with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really.

Disagree. The geometry difference is great.
Much longer chainstays, much lower bottom bracket,
much less responsive front end.

Racing front end geometry is quick at lower speeds,
stable at extreme speeds. Touring front end geometry
is stable at lower speeds.

--
Michael Press

[Patrick Lamb]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:27:25 -0500, DougC <dcimper@norcom2000.com> >
>A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry difference
>with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really.

The geometry difference also allows you to use fatter tires, i.e.
bigger than 700Cx28, which not many non-touring road bikes can handle.
IMHO they're great for soaking up bumps and rough roads; YMMV. Fatter
tires also handle heavy loads with aplomb.

Pat

Email address works as is.

[datakoll]

"A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry
difference
with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really."

the industry is recovering from the Armstrong Era where all bikes were
Tour racers or worse" no gap between seat tube and rear tire, forks
pointed straight into the amacite. Very responsive, nervous geometry.
Darty. Darty over varying road surfaces all day with wind blowing you
right and left ad nauseum and ura gonna be one tired dude.
Touring geometry, and NOT 27" sport-touring geometery, delivers a
platform on which the rider pedals power straight ahead. Turning is
incidental. Which isnot to say turning response is poor like itsa
bicycle not an Eldorado convertible. turning response is good but
itsnot a GTour racer in the hands of a real racer type.

This is relative to the Commuter's Dilemma: do I ride an MTB or a
sports tourer with drop bars?
All my commuting is done down long straights not thru the woods and
across the lawns to wherever so the sports-tourer is ace here.

The sports tourer or whatchucallur "normal" geometry until the NUT
DEPT gets to messing around with it, is a suitable compromise between
Tour racer and touring bike made easier on the touring nerves with a
big fat round Conti TT carcass or as fat and round as can be fit
between the old ten speed chainstays.

[landotter]

On Apr 5, 7:00*pm, Woland99 <wolan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 4, 6:18 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> > to school full time
>
> > Therefore money IS tight
>
> > BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> > summer
>
> > I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> > only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> > I'm wondering if I can build *bike cheaper or if not
> > cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> > I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> > I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> > grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> > back to work? *I was even thinking I could use
> > components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> > advice? *how to get a good bike but do it in *fashion
> > that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> > I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> > right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> > summer.... besides just touring and for fun
>
> One thing you should probably consider in touring bike is
> ergonomics. You do not want to ride long distances on bike
> that does not fit. I do not think that saving 170 bucks
> getting that Windsor is worth it. But - if you really dislike
> Randonee then I guess that is good enough reason to keep looking.
> I thing that perhaps keeping it for few months and searching on
> ctaigs is a better tactic than getting something that has worse
> components and costs couple hundred less.

Yup. I almost bought a Windsor last fall but decided to get a city
tootler at the LBS and support them instead. It was on sale for under
$600 for a while, and I figured that even if I eventually had to
rebuild the wheels on some LX hubs with good spokes, it was still a
fine deal--but when you consider that those hubs and spokes cost ya a
hundred bucks, then $70 more to get the discounted and better quality
Randonee is a no-brainer.

I'd return it if money was tight for real--Craigslist plus a couple
hundred in parts and racks gets you a bike that'll tour, just not a
shiny new solution out of the box.

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
> "A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry
> difference
> with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really."
>
> the industry is recovering from the Armstrong Era where all bikes were
> Tour racers or worse" no gap between seat tube and rear tire, forks
> pointed straight into the amacite. Very responsive, nervous geometry.
> Darty. Darty over varying road surfaces all day with wind blowing you
> right and left ad nauseum and ura gonna be one tired dude.[...]

Mr. Armstrong never had issue with bicycle fit:
<http://www.dollreference.com/images/kenner_stretch_armstrong.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[still just me]

On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 03:03:44 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>Disagree. The geometry difference is great.
>Much longer chainstays, much lower bottom bracket,
>much less responsive front end.
>
>Racing front end geometry is quick at lower speeds,
>stable at extreme speeds. Touring front end geometry
>is stable at lower speeds.

True in days of old... is that still true today? (that is a question,
I don't follow modern frame trends that closely).

I thought most bikes today, even "touring" bikes, short of a retro
builder, were really tight geometries more suitable to racing.

[Hank]

On Apr 5, 9:07 pm, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 03:03:44 GMT, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Disagree. The geometry difference is great.
> >Much longer chainstays, much lower bottom bracket,
> >much less responsive front end.
>
> >Racing front end geometry is quick at lower speeds,
> >stable at extreme speeds. Touring front end geometry
> >is stable at lower speeds.
>
> True in days of old... is that still true today? (that is a question,
> I don't follow modern frame trends that closely).
>
> I thought most bikes today, even "touring" bikes, short of a retro
> builder, were really tight geometries more suitable to racing.

Surly LHT has head tube angles ranging from 70 to 72 degrees,
depending on size. All sizes have 46cm chainstays. Trek 520's a little
bit tighter, but not much - it has 45cm chainstays, and its biggest
size has a 72.5 deg HT.

Compare that to my mid-90s 59cm Guerciotti - 41cm chainstays and a 74
deg HT.

IMO, the chainstay length is the biggest deal - No way could I run
rear panniers if they were 2 inches closer to my (size 12) heels. I'm
having to use an extra-long rack to begin with.

[Michael Press]

In article <n1jgv315n4eg3i9b11e6nethrl2cjicpc0@4ax.com>,
still just me <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 03:03:44 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Disagree. The geometry difference is great.
> >Much longer chainstays, much lower bottom bracket,
> >much less responsive front end.
> >
> >Racing front end geometry is quick at lower speeds,
> >stable at extreme speeds. Touring front end geometry
> >is stable at lower speeds.
>
> True in days of old... is that still true today? (that is a question,
> I don't follow modern frame trends that closely).
>
> I thought most bikes today, even "touring" bikes, short of a retro
> builder, were really tight geometries more suitable to racing.

Hank answers this.

I meant to add that 450 to 460 mm chainstays make a
more comfortable ride, particularly when combined with
70 degree forks for a long wheelbase.

--
Michael Press

[datakoll]

try a $15 deore rear deray-has a double pivot, keeps chain from
snagging manhole covers

[datakoll]

On Apr 6, 1:24*pm, Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOS...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:21:05 -0500, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> >bigjimp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>For $600 you can get a decent touring bike with free shipping and very
> >>minor assembly
>
> >>http://bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/tourist.htm
>
> >>This may be exactly what you need. *Supposedly this is the same as the
> >>Fuji touring and is coparable to the Trek touring both of whih cost
> >>more $$$
>
> >That is a pretty good deal. I've looked at it in the
> >past.
>
> >At $600 it even includes free shipping to 48 states....
> >not bad at all
>
> >I paid $770 for the Novara Randonee...... plus abt $20
> >gas to drive to get it. So I guess the Windsor would
> >have saved me $200 I could have spent on gear and
> >clothing. Hmmm....
>
> >Still.... I keep thinking I could cabbage some thing
> >together with the $25 Ross MTB frame I have.... and
> >have more money for shoes, tent, gear
>
> >Choices choices.... especially hard when money is low
>
> Used might be great, or might not be. *It would be better if you had a
> basement full of parts, and a shop full of tools, and your time was
> worth nothing -- oh wait, if you're a student, you fit the time part.
> Hard to say how good a used bike is unless you've built up the
> wrenching experience to eyeball it (and fix the bike if you're wrong).
> If you want to ride a bike a lot, enjoy your Randonee. *If you'd
> rather fret over every dollar than ride, you can entertain the buy
> used or build it up idea. *You pay your money, you take your choice!
>
> My crystal ball says you'll return the Randonee, spend a lot of time
> (and money) over the summer trying to get a cheap bike and make it
> work, and late in the year bemoan the fact that you didn't get to ride
> as much as you thought you would.
>
> Pat
> Email address works as is.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

ifn YOU don't take IT apart and bolt/adjust IT back together then
where yuo at? NOWHERE THAT;S WHERE.
Somewhere there's a list of touring frame makers but I lost it. Try
'Bruce Gordon'
the geometeries extend out toward the Plains so to peak as specialty
building allows discretion, finesse and logic to overtake gross
debilitiating consumerism.
and check this out eeyyayayahahhhaa

http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

[Brian Huntley]

On Apr 6, 12:24 pm, Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOS...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:27:25 -0500, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> >
>
> >A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry difference
> >with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really.
>
> The geometry difference also allows you to use fatter tires, i.e.
> bigger than 700Cx28, which not many non-touring road bikes can handle.
> IMHO they're great for soaking up bumps and rough roads; YMMV. Fatter
> tires also handle heavy loads with aplomb.

Hybrids do. My first 'touring' bike was a Specialized Crossroads (the
CroMo version) with fenders, racks, and drop bars added.

(Actually, I first went for sweptback 'Priest' bars, but after one
tour and four numb fingers I went for drop bars.)

[datakoll]

-
Yeah check out Stacy's ride geometry

http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88886974

http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> [...]
> baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
>
Mooooooooooooooooooooo

> ifn YOU don't take IT apart and bolt/adjust IT back together then
> where yuo at? NOWHERE THAT;S WHERE.
> Somewhere there's a list of touring frame makers but I lost it. Try
> 'Bruce Gordon'
> the geometeries extend out toward the Plains so to peak as specialty
> building allows discretion, finesse and logic to overtake gross
> debilitiating consumerism.
> and check this out eeyyayayahahhhaa
>
> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

This is a lot more comfortable looking touring setup:
<http://www.phred.org/~alex/pictures/bikes/rocket/loaded-1.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[datakoll]

Or headed to eastern yurp geometry?
http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/80385028
http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

ifn yawl aint ahben watchin tooooo much teevee

a definite geometry difference from the local rack

where's muh camera? I can haul mine up to Mont Blank in muh truck and
take a photo
saaaay where's the opening photo from?
nice site many thanks

[Michael Press]

In article
<24ca0059-510a-40ce-8c6b-2d726399afb8@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

> -
> Yeah check out Stacy's ride geometry
>
> http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88886974

Frame is undersized.
No mudguards.

> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

Fully loaded dissolve, java, and cookie site. Blegghh!

--
Michael Press

[datakoll]

Butbutbut this one izza SPORTS-TOURER set up on the sports side for a
rider enjoys a good broken back and squooze gut *

http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/79929978

http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/


*amlost every one of these I guys I speak with on the road are 90%
incoherent.

[Michael Press]

In article
<c335f128-b87b-47de-ae51-f7f0a941a32d@u3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Or headed to eastern yurp geometry?
> http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/80385028

Neat.
Is the frame undersized?

--
Michael Press

[datakoll]

WELL LOOKEY HERE !!
this one izza SPORTS-TOURER set up on the TOURER side

http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88887199

http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

[datakoll]

Then there's the MULE DEPT
http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88631193
http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

[Michael Press]

In article
<8d8ec5d8-8be1-4eb8-aa75-1d7051324913@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

> WELL LOOKEY HERE !!
> this one izza SPORTS-TOURER set up on the TOURER side
>
> http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88887199
>
> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

Frame looks to be the right size.
No kinky drop bars.
Bars set just so.
A winner.
The rear mud guard is badly undersized;
even the rear mud flap is not sufficient.
The front mud guard needs a mud flap; in front!

Altogether a great set up.
Love the horizontal top tube.

--
Michael Press

[datakoll]

Here's a guy with balls
http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/57160132
http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

[Michael Press]

In article
<4f369422-4b04-4967-b4c2-8f00748bd15e@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Then there's the MULE DEPT
> http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88631193

More datakoll porn. :-)

> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

--
Michael Press

[datakoll]

OK here's a consumer bike. Like the MULE DEPT, Trek took the jig used
for a sports-tourer frame butbutbut tilted the fork waaaay forward
(for a consumer bike) what 1/1/2" ? 2" ??
So yawl doan hafta fight the wheel all day when itsnot necessary.
Learn countersteering
http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/77784973
http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

[Michael Press]

In article
<985899d8-a8b6-4978-8176-f65434d7be00@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Here's a guy with balls
> http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/57160132

We call this one the masochist.

> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

--
Michael Press

[datakoll]

I hafta go but I'm sure there's a better example but True North will
do for LUNATIC FRINGE GEOMETEREY. 10 MM up, bow and stern and its
against the wind
http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88631195
http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

god bless the man on the Schwinn

[Michael Press]

In article
<f0e47e8f-5489-4bb6-871e-e2f41b950a76@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

> OK here's a consumer bike. Like the MULE DEPT, Trek took the jig used
> for a sports-tourer frame butbutbut tilted the fork waaaay forward
> (for a consumer bike) what 1/1/2" ? 2" ??
> So yawl doan hafta fight the wheel all day when itsnot necessary.
> Learn countersteering
> http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/77784973

Yes, but the drops are unusable.

> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

--
Michael Press

[still just me]

On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:27:19 -0500, Tom Sherman
<sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

>>
>> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/
>
>This is a lot more comfortable looking touring setup:
><http://www.phred.org/~alex/pictures/bikes/rocket/loaded-1.jpg>.

Looks like something in between Rube Goldberg and a medieval torture
device.

Do people actually ride those 'bent things?

[datakoll]

On Apr 6, 9:45*pm, Brian Huntley <brian_hunt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 12:24 pm, Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOS...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:27:25 -0500, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> >
>
> > >A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry difference
> > >with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really.
>
> > The geometry difference also allows you to use fatter tires, i.e.
> > bigger than 700Cx28, which not many non-touring road bikes can handle.
> > IMHO they're great for soaking up bumps and rough roads; YMMV. *Fatter
> > tires also handle heavy loads with aplomb.
>
> Hybrids do. My first 'touring' bike was a Specialized Crossroads (the
> CroMo version) with fenders, racks, and drop bars added.
>
> (Actually, I first went for sweptback 'Priest' bars, but after one
> tour and four numb fingers I went for drop bars.)

http://planocycling.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=8916 ???

look we're taking names here...

[datakoll]

On Apr 6, 9:50 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 6, 9:45 pm, Brian Huntley <brian_hunt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 6, 12:24 pm, Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOS...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:27:25 -0500, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> >
>
> > > >A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry difference
> > > >with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really.
>
> > > The geometry difference also allows you to use fatter tires, i.e.
> > > bigger than 700Cx28, which not many non-touring road bikes can handle.
> > > IMHO they're great for soaking up bumps and rough roads; YMMV. Fatter
> > > tires also handle heavy loads with aplomb.
>
> > Hybrids do. My first 'touring' bike was a Specialized Crossroads (the
> > CroMo version) with fenders, racks, and drop bars added.
>
> > (Actually, I first went for sweptback 'Priest' bars, but after one
> > tour and four numb fingers I went for drop bars.)
>
> http://planocycling.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=8916 ???
>
> look we're taking names here...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Here's a hansome rig! Notice nooooo chain guard development. nada
http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/89839553
http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> On Apr 6, 9:50 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 6, 9:45 pm, Brian Huntley <brian_hunt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 6, 12:24 pm, Patrick Lamb <pdl678NOS...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:27:25 -0500, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> >
>>>>> A touring bike... is a bike with racks. There is a geometry difference
>>>>> with say a road or tri bike, but it's not that great really.
>>>> The geometry difference also allows you to use fatter tires, i.e.
>>>> bigger than 700Cx28, which not many non-touring road bikes can handle.
>>>> IMHO they're great for soaking up bumps and rough roads; YMMV. Fatter
>>>> tires also handle heavy loads with aplomb.
>>> Hybrids do. My first 'touring' bike was a Specialized Crossroads (the
>>> CroMo version) with fenders, racks, and drop bars added.
>>> (Actually, I first went for sweptback 'Priest' bars, but after one
>>> tour and four numb fingers I went for drop bars.)
>> http://planocycling.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=8916 ???
>>
>> look we're taking names here...- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Here's a hansome rig! Notice nooooo chain guard development. nada
> http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/89839553
> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/

No fenders/mudguards either.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[datakoll]

On Apr 7, 10:00*am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:27:19 -0500, Tom Sherman
>
> <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/
>
> >This is a lot more comfortable looking touring setup:
> ><http://www.phred.org/~alex/pictures/bikes/rocket/loaded-1.jpg>.
>
> Looks like something in between Rube Goldberg and a medieval torture
> device.
>
> Do people actually ride those 'bent things?

FOLLOW THRU AND ROAD TEST ONE
ride over some dog ****

[Tom Sherman]

still just me wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:27:19 -0500, Tom Sherman
> <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/
>> This is a lot more comfortable looking touring setup:
>> <http://www.phred.org/~alex/pictures/bikes/rocket/loaded-1.jpg>.
>
> Looks like something in between Rube Goldberg and a medieval torture
> device.
>
> Do people actually ride those 'bent things?
>
I have a RANS Rocket that I have ridden quite a bit.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> On Apr 7, 10:00 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:27:19 -0500, Tom Sherman
>>
>> <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/
>>> This is a lot more comfortable looking touring setup:
>>> <http://www.phred.org/~alex/pictures/bikes/rocket/loaded-1.jpg>.
>> Looks like something in between Rube Goldberg and a medieval torture
>> device.
>>
>> Do people actually ride those 'bent things?
>
> FOLLOW THRU AND ROAD TEST ONE

I rode my RANS Rocket on a metric century the day after I bought it.

> ride over some dog ****

That is what fenders (mudguards) are for.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[datakoll]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's an exact copy (more or less) of the '87
Rampart rebuilt and ridden here. Surly's fork is more forward and a
good thing as the cheap asian import's fork is tooooo quick for
touring.
also seen at the Chinese SF Botique cyclery whose name escapes me.

[landotter]

On Apr 7, 4:49 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <8d8ec5d8-8be1-4eb8-aa75-1d7051324...@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > WELL LOOKEY HERE !!
> > this one izza SPORTS-TOURER set up on the TOURER side
>
> >http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88887199
>
> >http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/
>
> Frame looks to be the right size.
> No kinky drop bars.
> Bars set just so.
> A winner.
> The rear mud guard is badly undersized;
> even the rear mud flap is not sufficient.
> The front mud guard needs a mud flap; in front!
>
> Altogether a great set up.
> Love the horizontal top tube.

What tires are those?? To need 60mm fenders on a 700c tire, they gotta
be super wide!

[datakoll]

my string was intended as a look at touring geometry, bag sets....the
drops belong to the owner not us.

[Michael Press]

In article
<4f16795f-c0f4-4c24-ad76-04677c12780b@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com> wrote:

> my string was intended as a look at touring geometry, bag sets....the
> drops belong to the owner not us.

check

--
Michael Press

[datakoll]

EEYEHAHAHHAA THAT'S WHAT DOG **** IS FOR

[datakoll]

On Apr 7, 9:15*pm, daveornee <daveornee.37i...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> m...@privacy.net Wrote:
>
>
>
> > Guys I'm unemployed and between jobs.... so went back
> > to school full time
>
> > Therefore money IS tight
>
> > BUT... I went out and bought a Novara Randonee for this
> > summer
>
> > I'm having second thoughts and may return it... not
> > only for the reason that money is tight.... but that
> > I'm wondering if I can build *bike cheaper or if not
> > cheaper that is better somehow.
>
> > I know the frame is the heart and soul of a bike.... if
> > I bought a GOOD frame could I populate it with low
> > grade components for use this summer and upgrade when
> > back to work? *I was even thinking I could use
> > components form a yard sale bike for now.
>
> > advice? *how to get a good bike but do it in *fashion
> > that makes sense given my financial constraints
>
> > I don't mind spending some money as gasoline is so high
> > right now I'm pretty set on bike riding EVEYWHERE this
> > summer.... besides just touring and for fun
>
> Take what you have and ride it, tour with it, EVERYWHERE.
> You will see lots of interesting things, people, and see what they
> ride... and even talk to them as to what they have seen, what roads to
> take (& avoid), where to eat, where to sleep, etc. *As you go you will
> form your own likes and dislikes about the bicycle, hills, sun, rain,
> wide tires, fenders *(or not), etc.
> Take a look around the country and you will learn lots. *I have ridden
> over 500,000 miles now and I am still learning and still enjoying the
> process. *The bicycle you choose (or come to like) will be only a small
> part of the equation.
>
> --
> daveornee- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

DAVE ? do you have a favorite amungst the gallery and why?

frankly, you position is too generous and basically blows my mind. Do
lemmings need a push?
I came to an ultra complusive position about 6 months into my 6 year
tour. Everything is just so AND YET IT DOES UNRAVEL but not totally.
orbital planning.
given the chance, would Marty's retired Pittsburgh plumber ride his
Columbia or go for the Route 66 ?
like riding to Paris is no fun if the rig fractures outside home town.
bring the sting eeze

[me@privacy.net]

daveornee
<daveornee.37iydg@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com>
wrote:

>The bicycle you choose (or come to like) will be only a small
>part of the equation.

Agree

But with limited funds I can only have one bike....so
must chose carefully

[Hank]

On Apr 7, 7:14 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 4:49 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <8d8ec5d8-8be1-4eb8-aa75-1d7051324...@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > WELL LOOKEY HERE !!
> > > this one izza SPORTS-TOURER set up on the TOURER side
>
> > >http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88887199
>
> > >http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/
>
> > Frame looks to be the right size.
> > No kinky drop bars.
> > Bars set just so.
> > A winner.
> > The rear mud guard is badly undersized;
> > even the rear mud flap is not sufficient.
> > The front mud guard needs a mud flap; in front!
>
> > Altogether a great set up.
> > Love the horizontal top tube.
>
> What tires are those?? To need 60mm fenders on a 700c tire, they gotta
> be super wide!

I don't think those are 700c tires. Just from a glance, It looks like
a 54cm LHT, which uses 559/26" wheels, but its long head tube makes it
look bigger than it is.

[landotter]

On Apr 7, 9:25*pm, Hank <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 7:14 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 4:49 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > In article
> > > <8d8ec5d8-8be1-4eb8-aa75-1d7051324...@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > *datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > WELL LOOKEY HERE !!
> > > > this one izza SPORTS-TOURER set up on the TOURER side
>
> > > >http://www.pbase.com/canyonlands/image/88887199
>
> > > >http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/
>
> > > Frame looks to be the right size.
> > > No kinky drop bars.
> > > Bars set just so.
> > > A winner.
> > > The rear mud guard is badly undersized;
> > > even the rear mud flap is not sufficient.
> > > The front mud guard needs a mud flap; in front!
>
> > > Altogether a great set up.
> > > Love the horizontal top tube.
>
> > What tires are those?? To need 60mm fenders on a 700c tire, they gotta
> > be super wide!
>
> I don't think those are 700c tires. Just from a glance, It looks like
> a 54cm LHT, which uses 559/26" wheels, but its long head tube makes it
> look bigger than it is.

Ya got me! That must be it, especially now that I eyeball the
proportions. You're right, the head tube made me think it was a 56cm
with some freaky tires. So just a 54cm with one model of many fat 26"
street tires.

I'm getting addicted to fatter street tires. First it was the Redline
fixie I bought 18 months ago with IRC Tandems at 30mm. Sold my skinny
tire bike after riding the Redline and re-discovering the confidence
that comes with wider tires. I ride on some major rough city roads and
the float adds not only comfort but a sense of safety in tight
traffic.

This afternoon, a 20 miler on the Kona with 37s turned into a 35+
miler when I got lost out by the lake during rush hour. Was able to
ride the fine crush gravel by the road just fine and not hold up the
40mph traffic.

[me@privacy.net]

landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'm getting addicted to fatter street tires.

You know this is a good point above

I think this is another thing I'm disliking abt the
Novara Randonee..... the narrower tires

At age 50 I don't have the "balance: I used to have....
and the narrower touring bike tires (as compared to a
fatter 26" mt bike slick) makes me a bit nervous when
riding over cracks and seams in the road.

Any thoughts or agreement on this?

I'm def taking the Randonee back..... just not sure
what to go for from here. Maybe a mt bike with slicks
on it

[landotter]

On Apr 8, 2:01 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I'm getting addicted to fatter street tires.
>
> You know this is a good point above
>
> I think this is another thing I'm disliking abt the
> Novara Randonee..... the narrower tires
>
> At age 50 I don't have the "balance: I used to have....
> and the narrower touring bike tires (as compared to a
> fatter 26" mt bike slick) makes me a bit nervous when
> riding over cracks and seams in the road.
>
> Any thoughts or agreement on this?
>

Ride more, ***** less. I ride my fixed gear on narrower tires on fire
roads.

> I'm def taking the Randonee back..... just not sure
> what to go for from here. Maybe a mt bike with slicks
> on it

Surely you'll find something wrong with whatever you get!

[datakoll]

you will not fall as long as the tires don't fall into a deep crack
say 3+ inches and narrow. Keep an eye on the road, learn
countersteering and steer out or up at more thsan a shallow angle.
the wheel's centripital force gyroscopes stability.

[Tom Sherman]

me@privacy.net wrote:
> landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm getting addicted to fatter street tires.
>
> You know this is a good point above
>
> I think this is another thing I'm disliking abt the
> Novara Randonee..... the narrower tires
>
> At age 50 I don't have the "balance: I used to have....
> and the narrower touring bike tires (as compared to a
> fatter 26" mt bike slick) makes me a bit nervous when
> riding over cracks and seams in the road.
>
> Any thoughts or agreement on this?
>
J. Brandt is in his mid 70's and rides a road bike with 25-mm tires on
things like hiking trails and unimproved roads.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[datakoll]

On Apr 8, 3:15*pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 2:01 pm, m...@privacy.net wrote:
>
> > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >I'm getting addicted to fatter street tires.
>
> > You know this is a good point above
>
> > I think this is another thing I'm disliking abt the
> > Novara Randonee..... the narrower tires
>
> > At age 50 I don't have the "balance: I used to have....
> > and the narrower touring bike tires (as compared to a
> > fatter 26" mt bike slick) makes me a bit nervous when
> > riding over cracks and seams in the road.
>
> > Any thoughts or agreement on this?
>
> Ride more, ***** less. I ride my fixed gear on narrower tires on fire
> roads.
>
> > I'm def taking the Randonee back..... just not sure
> > what to go for from here. Maybe a mt bike with slicks
> > on it
>
> Surely you'll find something wrong with whatever you get!

here's a guy need to go off the end, get a Safari, condition and kit
then head out.

[Nate Nagel]

datakoll wrote:
>
> you will not fall as long as the tires don't fall into a deep crack
> say 3+ inches and narrow. Keep an eye on the road, learn
> countersteering and steer out or up at more thsan a shallow angle.
> the wheel's centripital force gyroscopes stability.

damn, that just brought back a memory... years ago, I was riding some
crappy Schwinn MTB and the stem came loose. While I was screaming
downhill on a not-so-well-paved road. I did pretty well until the front
wheel fell into a crack... (looks down) yup, there's still a little blue
dot on my knee where I didn't get all the gravel out. that was fun.
That has to be 15-20 years ago. Fortunately I did have a little toolkit
strapped under the seat, so I was at least able to get home. Probably
creeped out a few motorists.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[landotter]

On Apr 8, 8:47*pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> m...@privacy.net wrote:
> > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm getting addicted to fatter street tires.
>
> > You know this is a good point above
>
> > I think this is another thing I'm disliking abt the
> > Novara Randonee..... the narrower tires
>
> > At age 50 I don't have the "balance: I used to have....
> > and the narrower touring bike tires (as compared to a
> > fatter 26" mt bike slick) makes me a bit nervous when
> > riding over cracks and seams in the road.
>
> > Any thoughts or agreement on this?
>
> J. Brandt is in his mid 70's and rides a road bike with 25-mm tires on
> things like hiking trails and unimproved roads.

Maybe if we all chipped in for some 32mm Paselas, he'd be less
grouchy.

[Tom Sherman]

landotter wrote:
> On Apr 8, 8:47 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> m...@privacy.net wrote:
>>> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm getting addicted to fatter street tires.
>>> You know this is a good point above
>>> I think this is another thing I'm disliking abt the
>>> Novara Randonee..... the narrower tires
>>> At age 50 I don't have the "balance: I used to have....
>>> and the narrower touring bike tires (as compared to a
>>> fatter 26" mt bike slick) makes me a bit nervous when
>>> riding over cracks and seams in the road.
>>> Any thoughts or agreement on this?
>> J. Brandt is in his mid 70's and rides a road bike with 25-mm tires on
>> things like hiking trails and unimproved roads.
>
> Maybe if we all chipped in for some 32mm Paselas, he'd be less
> grouchy.

Maybe Jobst would prefer a bottle of Jim Beam instead. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Roger]

First time posting to this group. This is just a suggestion for you guys.
Where I live, we have auction house's that I call "junk man's paradise".
Bicycles are always showing up. Some are good, need a little adjustment and
cleaning. Others are good for parts only. The stuff comes from storage
units, private consignors, estates. Bought my daughter a nice Trek 6000 for
$30.00. Just something to think about.
Roger

[datakoll]

only fine condition used bike I ever saw is the one I ride.

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
> only fine condition used bike I ever saw is the one I ride.

I purchased a used trike that had been ridden for less than 10 miles for
about 55% of what it cost new.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Carl Sundquist]

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ftk1ds$v17$2@registered.motzarella.org...
> datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>>
>> only fine condition used bike I ever saw is the one I ride.
>
> I purchased a used trike that had been ridden for less than 10 miles for
> about 55% of what it cost new.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

About 30 years ago, I happened upon and bought an Alex Singer touring bike
for $75 (the original owner had drowned on a rafting trip in Colorado and
his sister inherited it). The only bit you could even potentially say was in
less than fine condition was the fact that it had those God-awful Mafac
Racer brakes.