Sheared off pedal - How's that happen?

[HazeRider]

I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.

To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
happen?

[Leo Lichtman]

"HazeRider" wrote: (clip) To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of
so call high
> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> crank? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you should send a picture of the pedal and a picture of your face to
the manufacturer and see what they say. DON'T SEND THEM THE PEDAL.

[Martin Borsje]

I'd should say: do not in any case accept this!

This may not have happened!

I don't know exactly how this works in the US, but I suggest to hold
your LBS, where you bought it, responsible for all the damage to you
and your bike.

Do this by registered wrting accompanied by a witness statement as from
the police officers present and pictures of the pedal/axle.

I agree with first replier's suggestion *not* to send the pedal itself.

Only accept inspection by certified third party experts.

It might help to have a friend/collegue with knowledge about metal
failure mechanisms who can inspect and write a short report, attached
to your letter.

Can you publish some pic's of the fracture?

Success and pls keep us informed about proceedings!

Martin (NL)

[D'ohBoy]

On Apr 28, 12:43 pm, HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
> possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
> middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
> the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
> pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
> traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
> I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
> and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
> drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
> car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
> on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
> Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
> few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
> me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
>
> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
> more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
> Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> happen?

C'mon, Jim. How's about some of that downhome metallurgy to bring
closure to this guy's pain?

My apologies to the OP for using his pain as an opportunity to poke
JB.

D'ohBoy

[Kinky Cowboy]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:43:58 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
<ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:

>To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
>technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
>crank?

A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual way to shear the head off
of screw is excessive tightening torque

Who put the pedals on? If you did it yourself, don't hold out any hope
of getting compensation

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Jay Beattie]

On Apr 28, 10:43*am, HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
> possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
> middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
> the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
> pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
> traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
> I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
> and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
> drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
> car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
> on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
> Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
> few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
> me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
>
> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
> more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
> Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> happen?

Post a picture showing the fracture site. Pedal spindles can break for
a number of reasons. I broke a Look CroMo spindle in a pre-Keo pedal
probably due to fatigue along with some forging problem. Was your's
Ti or CroMo? -- Jay Beattie.

[HazeRider]

On Apr 28, 1:43*pm, HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
> possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
> middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
> the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
> pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
> traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
> I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
> and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
> drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
> car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
> on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
> Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
> few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
> me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
>
> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
> more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
> Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> happen?

These were installed with a Pedro's 8mm pedal hex key. They've been on
and off the bike. Removed them a few times. Took them to Paris and put
them on a Team CSC Cervelo last summer I was able to ride during part
of the Tour. Had them down in Ft. Lauderdale a few weeks ago on a
Bianchi I was borrowing during a business trip. That's the point
right. Take your pedals to match your cleats. Just a little bright
yellow Shimano grease and snug them in with the right tool and you
should be good to go. Pictures will follow. I've taken plenty. No
uploading device in the office today. Later.

Ed

[Michael Press]

In article
<a0100ebf-8e0f-4196-8747-f7b1ad532df4@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
HazeRider <ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:

> I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
> possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
> middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
> the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
> pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
> traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
> I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
> and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
> drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
> car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
> on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
> Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
> few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
> me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
>
> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
> more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
> Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> happen?

Seriously consider legal advice.
Make no more statements to anybody.

--
Michael Press

[HazeRider]

On Apr 28, 1:43*pm, HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
> possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
> middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
> the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
> pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
> traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
> I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
> and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
> drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
> car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
> on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
> Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
> few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
> me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
>
> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
> more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
> Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> happen?

OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.

I'll try to figure it out.

Ed

[jim beam]

HazeRider wrote:
<snip crap>
> my Look Keo Sprints sheared

<snip crap>

> How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> miles on them.

<snip more crap>

it's "axle".

almost certainly fatigue. this can be either defect, or abuse. absent
pics of the fracture surface, it's impossible to say.

what /is/ possible to say however is that you have a legit reason to
warranty them and/or take up the issue of damages if you are so inclined.

[Sandy]

Dans le message de news:mn.e51a7d8448cf1309.83764@void.space,
Martin Borsje <nospam@void.space> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> I'd should say: do not in any case accept this!

What proceedings? What are you suggesting, and why?

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Martin Borsje wrote:

> I'd should say: do not in any case accept this!

> This may not have happened!

> I don't know exactly how this works in the US, but I suggest to hold
> your LBS, where you bought it, responsible for all the damage to you
> and your bike.

> Do this by registered writing accompanied by a witness statement as
> from the police officers present and pictures of the pedal/axle.

> I agree with first replier's suggestion *not* to send the pedal
> itself.

If I were to try to reconstruct the cause of failure, I would like to
see the pedal and the spindle to determine if it is a fatigue failure
(spindle is in straight alignment when fit together) or whether it
sustained an earlier bend that initiated failure. Also the fracture
face would probably reveal how long the crack was in development.

> Only accept inspection by certified third party experts.

> It might help to have a friend/colleague with knowledge about metal
> failure mechanisms who can inspect and write a short report,
> attached to your letter.

The fracture face will probably reveal the most information although
impact gouges on the pedal exterior would also reveal whether the
spindle had previously received an overload.

> Can you publish some pic's of the fracture?

> Success and pls keep us informed about proceedings!

Jobst Brandt

[Tom Sherman]

D'ohBoy wrote:
> [...]
> C'mon, Jim. How's about some of that downhome metallurgy to bring
> closure to this guy's pain?
>
> My apologies to the OP for using his pain as an opportunity to poke
> JB.
>
Er, "JB" is Jobst Brandt. "jim beam" is "jb".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Leo Lichtman]

"Kinky Cowboy" wrote: (clip) A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual
way to shear the head off
> of screw is excessive tightening torque (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Excessive tightening torque certainly can shear the head off of a bolt.
This can happen if a very strong, ham-fisted person uses a "cheater" on a
wrench, It can also happen on small screws, where a normal sized wrench is
capable of producing excessive torque. It is VERY unlikely on a pedal,
where the spindle is not small, and the wrenches that will fit into the
available space are never really large.

You are suggesting that the failure was initiated by overtightening, which
resulted in fatigue failure 5000 miles later. A properly heat-treated
spindle should not fail in this way. It should be impossible to initiate a
stress crack with a pedal wrench.

[Bill]

"Kinky Cowboy" <user@domain.com> wrote in message
news:q7cc141ndfffa8ro54qlkcuje4on4birua@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:43:58 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
> <ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:
>
>>To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
>>technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
>>crank?
>
> A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual way to shear the head off
> of screw is excessive tightening torque
>
> Who put the pedals on? If you did it yourself, don't hold out any hope
> of getting compensation
>
> Kinky Cowboy*
>
> *Batteries not included
> May contain traces of nuts
> Your milage may vary
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

These are installed with an 8mm hex key from the inside, no 15mm wrench
flats available. Actually somewhat difficult to apply excessive torque.
Factory install manual recommends 40 nm, roughly 354 inch-pounds.
http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/newton-meters-to-inch-pounds-conversion.html
Bill

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

a shy person wrote:

>> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
>> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at
>> the crank?

Ice skating not allowed here! No Axels! Did you mean chrome-moly
aka 4130 steel.

> A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual way to shear the head off
> of screw is excessive tightening torque

....while tightening.

> Who put the pedals on? If you did it yourself, don't hold out any
> hope of getting compensation

If the pedal didn't break when it was "over tightened" it was not
affected by tightening torque in an aluminum crank. From experience
we know that pedals are never too tight to move in the crank in use,
be that an aluminum or steel crank. The face of the crank shows
erosion from continual movement, the reason for left pedals to have
left hand threads.

Jobst Brandt

[clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:22:22 +0100, Kinky Cowboy <user@domain.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:43:58 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
><ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:
>
>>To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
>>technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
>>crank?
>
>A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual way to shear the head off
>of screw is excessive tightening torque
>
>Who put the pedals on? If you did it yourself, don't hold out any hope
>of getting compensation
>
>Kinky Cowboy*
>
>*Batteries not included
>May contain traces of nuts
>Your milage may vary
>** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **


Where did it break? Right at the threads? or where the shaft
transitions in size - and had no radius? No radius at a transition
WILL cause a stress rizer - where it will eventually break.
Too tight is unlikely to cause a fracture at this stage of the game -
too LOOSE is more likely- because when tight there are no
"load-unload" cycles - no flexing. Flexing causes failure moreso than
tension.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[chris.kush@gmail.com]

On Apr 28, 2:37*pm, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> "Kinky Cowboy" wrote: *(clip) * A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual
>
> way to shear the head off> of screw is excessive tightening torque (clip)
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Excessive tightening torque certainly can shear the head off of a bolt.

Assuming a steel spindle and aluminum crank threads, wouldn't you
strip the crank before achieving enough torque to pop the "bolt head"
of the spindle?

[clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:48:03 -0400, "Bill" <bill@example.invalid>
wrote:

>"Kinky Cowboy" <user@domain.com> wrote in message
>news:q7cc141ndfffa8ro54qlkcuje4on4birua@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:43:58 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
>> <ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:
>>
>>>To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
>>>technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
>>>crank?
>>
>> A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual way to shear the head off
>> of screw is excessive tightening torque
>>
>> Who put the pedals on? If you did it yourself, don't hold out any hope
>> of getting compensation
>>
>> Kinky Cowboy*
>>
>> *Batteries not included
>> May contain traces of nuts
>> Your milage may vary
>> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
>
>These are installed with an 8mm hex key from the inside, no 15mm wrench
>flats available. Actually somewhat difficult to apply excessive torque.
>Factory install manual recommends 40 nm, roughly 354 inch-pounds.
>http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/newton-meters-to-inch-pounds-conversion.html
>Bill
That's 30 ft lbs of torque on a roughly 1/2" national fine thread. No
where NEAR enough to damage a high strength shaft. And difficult to
overtorque by much with an 8mm allen key. I'd be more inclined to
suspect it was LOOSE than too tight.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[_]

On 28 Apr 2008 21:07:30 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Martin Borsje wrote:
>
>> I'd should say: do not in any case accept this!
>
>> This may not have happened!
>
>> I don't know exactly how this works in the US, but I suggest to hold
>> your LBS, where you bought it, responsible for all the damage to you
>> and your bike.
>
>> Do this by registered writing accompanied by a witness statement as
>> from the police officers present and pictures of the pedal/axle.
>
>> I agree with first replier's suggestion *not* to send the pedal
>> itself.
>
> If I were to try to reconstruct the cause of failure, I would like to
> see the pedal and the spindle to determine if it is a fatigue failure
> (spindle is in straight alignment when fit together) or whether it
> sustained an earlier bend that initiated failure. Also the fracture
> face would probably reveal how long the crack was in development.
>
>> Only accept inspection by certified third party experts.
>
>> It might help to have a friend/colleague with knowledge about metal
>> failure mechanisms who can inspect and write a short report,
>> attached to your letter.
>
> The fracture face will probably reveal the most information although
> impact gouges on the pedal exterior would also reveal whether the
> spindle had previously received an overload.
>
>> Can you publish some pic's of the fracture?
>
>> Success and pls keep us informed about proceedings!
>
> Jobst Brandt

Jobst, from the posters' original plaint it seems possible that by "pedal"
he means "crank". We know crank falures are not uncommon - pedal spindles
probably less so.

[Kinky Cowboy]

On 28 Apr 2008 21:22:52 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

>a shy person wrote:
>
>>> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
>>> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at
>>> the crank?
>
>Ice skating not allowed here! No Axels! Did you mean chrome-moly
>aka 4130 steel.
>
>> A pedal spindle is just a screw; the usual way to shear the head off
>> of screw is excessive tightening torque
>
>...while tightening.

I was just having a little fun at the expense of somebody who can't
spell pair, so-called, chrome-moly or axle. I'm surprised he didn't go
for peddles and sheer while he was at it.

I think we both know that when the spindle is examined, it will turn
out that it didn't "just shear off right at the crank"; to shear clean
through an otherwise intact 1/2" dia steel rod, even one badly made
from the wrong steel, takes more load than even over-fed,
under-educated and over-litigious Septics can manage.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[datakoll]

From out of the fog comes the faceless rider holding his testicles
hollerin’
KEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
K-K-KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

http://www.google.com/search?q=Look+Keo+Sprints+&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLJ

ur problem was yawl bought the wrong ones !!!!!!!!!1
sheeeet these here are the good ones:
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=22975

on law, ignore KC, he’s in texas.
inconsieb]avbble happening. you must be at fault.
the odd of a incorrectly forged shaft winding down at athe feet of
someone can afford a lawyer ?
impossiblay.

[datakoll]

"This product will include a Free UPS Ground shipping credit. This
credit will give free ups ground shipping or apply as a credit toward
other types of shipping."

what next?

listen. when yawl pass thru Indianapolis, stop by the machine shop and
ask them.

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> [...]
> on law, ignore KC, he’s in texas.[...]

I thought KC was from the UK.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[_]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:04:02 GMT, _ wrote:

> On 28 Apr 2008 21:07:30 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>> Martin Borsje wrote:
>>
>>> I'd should say: do not in any case accept this!
>>
>>> This may not have happened!
>>
>>> I don't know exactly how this works in the US, but I suggest to hold
>>> your LBS, where you bought it, responsible for all the damage to you
>>> and your bike.
>>
>>> Do this by registered writing accompanied by a witness statement as
>>> from the police officers present and pictures of the pedal/axle.
>>
>>> I agree with first replier's suggestion *not* to send the pedal
>>> itself.
>>
>> If I were to try to reconstruct the cause of failure, I would like to
>> see the pedal and the spindle to determine if it is a fatigue failure
>> (spindle is in straight alignment when fit together) or whether it
>> sustained an earlier bend that initiated failure. Also the fracture
>> face would probably reveal how long the crack was in development.
>>
>>> Only accept inspection by certified third party experts.
>>
>>> It might help to have a friend/colleague with knowledge about metal
>>> failure mechanisms who can inspect and write a short report,
>>> attached to your letter.
>>
>> The fracture face will probably reveal the most information although
>> impact gouges on the pedal exterior would also reveal whether the
>> spindle had previously received an overload.
>>
>>> Can you publish some pic's of the fracture?
>>
>>> Success and pls keep us informed about proceedings!
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
> Jobst, from the posters' original plaint it seems possible that by "pedal"
> he means "crank". We know crank falures are not uncommon - pedal spindles
> probably less so.

Nevermind; from replies further down the tree it is now clear that the
pedal did break, not the crank.

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Jay Taylor wrote:

>>> I'd should say: do not in any case accept this!

>>> This may not have happened!

>>> I don't know exactly how this works in the US, but I suggest to
>>> hold your LBS, where you bought it, responsible for all the damage
>>> to you and your bike.

>>> Do this by registered writing accompanied by a witness statement
>>> as from the police officers present and pictures of the
>>> pedal/axle.

>>> I agree with first replier's suggestion *not* to send the pedal
>>> itself.

>> If I were to try to reconstruct the cause of failure, I would like
>> to see the pedal and the spindle to determine if it is a fatigue
>> failure (spindle is in straight alignment when fit together) or
>> whether it sustained an earlier bend that initiated failure. Also
>> the fracture face would probably reveal how long the crack was in
>> development.

>>> Only accept inspection by certified third party experts.

>>> It might help to have a friend/colleague with knowledge about
>>> metal failure mechanisms who can inspect and write a short report,
>>> attached to your letter.

>> The fracture face will probably reveal the most information
>> although impact gouges on the pedal exterior would also reveal
>> whether the spindle had previously received an overload.

>>> Can you publish some pic's of the fracture?

>>> Success and pls keep us informed about proceedings!

> Jobst, from the posters' original plaint it seems possible that by
> "pedal" he means "crank". We know crank failures are not uncommon -
> pedal spindles probably less so.

The OP's words:

"How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high technology pedals with
chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the crank?"

I think that is unambiguously the pedal in spite of malapropisms.

Jobst Brandt

[Jay Beattie]

On Apr 28, 4:24*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <a0100ebf-8e0f-4196-8747-f7b1ad532...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> *HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> > I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
> > possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
> > middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
> > the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
> > pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
> > traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
> > I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
> > and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
> > drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
> > car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
> > on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
> > Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
> > few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
> > me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
>
> > To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> > technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> > crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> > miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
> > more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
> > Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> > happen?
>
> Seriously consider legal advice.
> Make no more statements to anybody

Oh, hell, he can talk to anyone he wants -- even us. It doesn't
matter unless he confesses to beating the pedal with a sledge hammer.
I mean the sucker broke within a years after it was purchased. Even a
baby lawyer could squeeze some money out of this case. Pedals should
last longer than 5K miles -- they better because I have the same Keo
model on my bike with about the same mileage. Tick, tick, tick. In
fact, I was riding on a Keo this weekend -- just one, though, because
my other pedal is a $10 rattrap that I can use with the boot on my
healing broken leg.

I look forward to seeing the pictures. I don't think the spindle has a
dramatically reduced cross section around the main bearings and don't
think it is just too whimpy for us pedal mashers -- at least I hope
not. A CroMo pedal that light is a little suspicious, though. -- Jay
Beattie.

[A Muzi]

> HazeRider <ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:
>
>> I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
>> possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
>> middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
>> the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
>> pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
>> traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
>> I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
>> and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
>> drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
>> car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
>> on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
>> Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
>> few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
>> me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
>>
>> To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
>> technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
>> crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
>> miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
>> more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
>> Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
>> happen?

Michael Press wrote:
> Seriously consider legal advice.
> Make no more statements to anybody.

Second that.
As we say here when there's a lot of blathering about legal issues,
'Don't take legal advice from bike mechanics and don't let lawyers work
on your bike'. (Jay Beatty excepted of course)
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Michael Press]

In article
<a99011f0-8e62-4932-905a-627103f24ef4@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:

> On Apr 28, 4:24*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <a0100ebf-8e0f-4196-8747-f7b1ad532...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> > > I discovered the hard way yesterday that I should be concerned about
> > > possibility that the pedals on my bike might shear right off in the
> > > middle of a ride. While crossing a major intersection and standing on
> > > the pedals to accelerate after being at a complete stop the right
> > > pedal of my Look Keo Sprints sheared straight off just as I passed the
> > > traffic throwning me face first into the asphalt. It happened so fast
> > > I never perceived the going down portion of this. One second I'm up
> > > and a nano second latter my head and face do a seven-beat stacatto
> > > drum riff on the asphalt. Major thanks to the lady that stopped in her
> > > car and helped me. Also the police and rescue squad folks. A cop was
> > > on scene in mere seconds and the ambulance in less that two minutes.
> > > Amazing nothing broken on me. I need a Phantom of the Opera mask for a
> > > few weeks and Advil is my best friend. The bike was not as luckly as
> > > me. Major damage to handelbars, computer, sunglass, helmet, etc.
> >
> > > To the question. How the hell can a $150 pare of so call high
> > > technology pedals with chrom-molly axels just shear off right at the
> > > crank? These guys are just less than a year old. Have nearly 5,000
> > > miles on them. They were attached to my Lemond Maillot Jaune. Not any
> > > more. Ain't going to trust life and limb to those pedals any more.
> > > Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> > > happen?
> >
> > Seriously consider legal advice.
> > Make no more statements to anybody
>
> Oh, hell, he can talk to anyone he wants -- even us. It doesn't
> matter unless he confesses to beating the pedal with a sledge hammer.
> I mean the sucker broke within a years after it was purchased. Even a
> baby lawyer could squeeze some money out of this case. Pedals should
> last longer than 5K miles -- they better because I have the same Keo
> model on my bike with about the same mileage. Tick, tick, tick. In
> fact, I was riding on a Keo this weekend -- just one, though, because
> my other pedal is a $10 rattrap that I can use with the boot on my
> healing broken leg.
>
> I look forward to seeing the pictures. I don't think the spindle has a
> dramatically reduced cross section around the main bearings and don't
> think it is just too whimpy for us pedal mashers -- at least I hope
> not. A CroMo pedal that light is a little suspicious, though. -- Jay
> Beattie.

Thanks, Jay. I erred on the side of caution.

--
Michael Press

[Camilo]

On Apr 28, 4:48 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:

.. Even a
> baby lawyer could squeeze some money out of this case. Pedals should
> last longer than 5K miles -

and when they wear out it shouldn't be catastrophic, dangerous failure
of the spindle, it should be the bearings or bearing surfaces, clip
mechanism, etc. just wearing out so they can't be re-habbed. I think
you're right about the "baby lawyer" comment; it could be an exellent
case for a newby liability lawyer to earn his/her chops.

[_]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider wrote:



> OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
> discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>
> I'll try to figure it out.
>

There is no "here" here.

This is usenet; it is everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

Upload your pics to a website and post a link.

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
<ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:

>OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
>discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>
>I'll try to figure it out.
>
>Ed

Dear Ed,

You can upload photos for free (not even registration is required) to
www.tinypic.com and then paste the short link into a post like this:
http://i31.tinypic.com/2iqdd13.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[peter]

On Apr 28, 6:10 pm, HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> On Apr 28, 1:43 pm, HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:

> > Does anyone know if there is any history here? What would make this
> > happen?
>
> OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
> discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>
> I'll try to figure it out.

As Carl said, upload pictures to one of the free sites that will host
them on the web and then post the link to them here. And get some
good pictures of your injuries and the bike damage as well so you can
use them in pursuing a claim against the pedal manufacturer.

I've had two pedal axle fractures but fortunately neither resulted in
any injuries or additional damage. The first was many years ago on my
less than two weeks old Schwinn Varsity. The axle sheared at about
the middle leaving just a stub attached to the crank. The remainder
of the pedal fell off and was run over by a following car. The
Schwinn dealer argued that he couldn't give me a warranty replacement
pedal since the original had been crushed by the car tire. But
eventually he gave in since it was obvious from the remaining stub in
the crank and undamaged bike that the pedal had broken off prior to
getting run over.

The second failure was on a much higher-end pedal which fractured
flush with the crank shortly after being reinstalled on my tandem. I
used a 6" crescent wrench to install it, so excessive torque seems
highly unlikely. The pedal was promptly replaced by the maker.

[datakoll]

Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
term ?
Try
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGLJ&q=materials+liability&btnG=Search
2 pages in
And: product liability
If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
online database in the law library.
Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
database may be difficult, at first.
Westlaw offers an English word search option.
My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
essay in the area.
You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
Online advert for some.
They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
control missed a serious flaw.
Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
about how much money guilty
My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
to go unnoticed.

[HazeRider]

On Apr 28, 9:51*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
>
> <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> >OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
> >discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>
> >I'll try to figure it out.
>
> >Ed
>
> Dear Ed,
>
> You can upload photos for free (not even registration is required) towww.tinypic.comand then paste the short link into a post like this:
> *http://i31.tinypic.com/2iqdd13.jpg
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

OK, Here's some pictures........ Me day of the crash and with the
evolving black eye of the following day. Also CU of pedal & axel.
Note, upon looking at these with the passage of a little time I did
notice the shear is not exactly flush with the crank. But maybe 3/4 of
inch from the crank.


http://i30.tinypic.com/307ybdu.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/90njoh.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/2upqs8l.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/1hrwwj.jpg


Ed

[Jay Beattie]

On Apr 28, 7:51*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
> term ?
> Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
> 2 pages in
> And: product liability
> If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
> online database in the law library.
> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
> database may be difficult, at first.
> Westlaw offers an English word search option.
> My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
> essay in the area.
> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
> Online advert for some.
> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
> company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
> and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
> control missed a serious flaw.
> Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
> about how much money guilty
> My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
> to go unnoticed.

Searching "products liability" in Westlaw would give you a bazillion
hits. Just find a reputable lawyer and be prepared to give up a
quarter to half your recovery, depending on the fee agreement. This
is an easy, easy case, and the only thing HazeRider has to worry about
is looking credible -- and injured. He could handle the case himself,
but, like plumbing, it is time consuming if you do not know what you
are doing. I wouldn't bother getting an expert report until first
attempting to get the case settled. I have defended a lot of broken
parts cases, and unless the failure arguably resulted from some
negligence on the part of the rider (crashing the pedal hard, whacking
it with a sledge hammer, using it to break up concrete, etc.), the
exact cause of the failure is not important -- except from an R&D
standpoint (and Look will want the pedal and a confidentiality
agreement as part of any settlement. That's SOP). The important
point is that the pedal broke JRA within a year after purchase -- and
the break caused the crash. IMO, the argument is going to be over the
extent of damages. Always remember that jurors generally hate
cyclists unless they are cute or particularly deserving. Otherwise,
they are crazy risk-takers and obstacles to motorists (jurors).
HazeRider would be better off settling -- unless he is cute and
adorable or in a wheelchair. -- Jay Beattie.

[Camilo]

On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
> term ?
> Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
> 2 pages in
> And: product liability
> If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
> online database in the law library.
> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
> database may be difficult, at first.
> Westlaw offers an English word search option.
> My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
> essay in the area.
> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
> Online advert for some.
> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
> company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
> and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
> control missed a serious flaw.
> Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
> about how much money guilty
> My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
> to go unnoticed.

Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. Unless you're
looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. You
might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. Just
IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
and how cases are viewed by big companies.

[datakoll]

On Apr 28, 11:28*pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> On Apr 28, 7:51*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
> > term ?
> > Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
> > 2 pages in
> > And: product liability
> > If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
> > online database in the law library.
> > Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
> > database may be difficult, at first.
> > Westlaw offers an English word search option.
> > My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
> > essay in the area.
> > You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
> > liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
> > Online advert for some.
> > They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
> > company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
> > compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
> > and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
> > control missed a serious flaw.
> > Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
> > about how much money guilty
> > My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
> > to go unnoticed.
>
> Searching "products liability" in Westlaw would give you a bazillion
> hits. *Just find a reputable lawyer and be prepared to give up a
> quarter to half your recovery, depending on the fee agreement. *This
> is an easy, easy case, and the only thing HazeRider has to worry about
> is looking credible -- and injured. *He could handle the case himself,
> but, like plumbing, it is time consuming if you do not know what you
> are doing. *I wouldn't bother getting an expert report until first
> attempting to get the case settled. I have defended a lot of broken
> parts cases, and unless the failure arguably resulted from some
> negligence on the part of the rider (crashing the pedal hard, whacking
> it with a sledge hammer, using it to break up concrete, etc.), the
> exact cause of the failure is not important -- except from an R&D
> standpoint (and Look will want the pedal and a confidentiality
> agreement as part of any settlement. *That's SOP). *The important
> point is that the pedal broke JRA within a year after purchase -- and
> the break caused the crash. *IMO, the argument is going to be over the
> extent of damages. *Always remember that jurors generally hate
> cyclists unless they are cute or particularly deserving. *Otherwise,
> they are crazy risk-takers and obstacles to motorists (jurors).
> HazeRider would be better off settling -- unless he is cute and
> adorable or in a wheelchair. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Jay's practices law?
the lawyer sez don't learn ahything about what you're doing (this in
RBT no less) then the lawyer as expert sez and we quote: " I wouldn't
bother getting an expert report until first
attempting to get the case settled."
Obviously, the company would not settle, without a lawyer or an
expert. 'Easy' isnot a proper descriptor.
search product liability in Google then use terms found in Google for
the Westlaw search and further Google searchs.

we now negway:

Q. What do you call 5000 dead lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
A. A good start!

Q. How can you tell when a lawyer is lying?
A. His lips are moving.

Q. What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead
lawyer in the road?
A. There are skid marks in front of the skunk.

Q. Why won't sharks attack lawyers?
A. Professional courtesy.

Q. What do have when a lawyer is buried up to his neck in sand?
A. Not enough sand.

Q. What do you buy a friend graduating from Law School?
A. A Lobotomy.

Q. How do you save five drowning lawyers?
A. Who cares?

Q. What do you call a block of cement containing ten lawyers?
A. A waste of cement.

Q. How do you stop a lawyer from drowning?
A1. Shoot him before he hits the water.
A2. Take your foot off his head.

Q. How do you get a lawyer out of a tree?
A. Cut the rope.

Q. What do you do if you run over a Lawyer?
A1. Back over him to make sure.
A2. Make another notch on the steering wheel.

Q. What's the difference between a lawyer and a bucket of sh*t?
A. The bucket.

Q. What is the definition of a shame (as in "that's a shame")?
A. When a bus load of lawyers goes off a cliff.

Q. What is the definition of a "crying shame"?
A. There was an empty seat.

Q. What can a goose do, a duck can't, and a lawyer should?
A. Stick his bill up his ass.

Q. What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer?
A. An offer you can't understand.

Q. Why is it that many lawyers have broken noses?
A. From chasing parked ambulances.

Q. Where can you find a good lawyer?
A. In the cemetery.

Q. What's the difference between a lawyer and a gigolo?
A. A gigolo only screws one person at a time.

Q. What's the difference between a lawyer and a vampire?
A. A vampire only sucks blood at night.

Q. Why to lawyers wear neckties?
A. To keep the foreskin from crawling up their chins.

Q. What's the difference between a hooker and a lawyer?
A. A hooker will stop ****ing you when you're dead.

Q. If you see a lawyer on a bicycle, why don't you swerve to hit him?
A. It might be your bicycle.

Q. What do lawyers use as contraceptives?
A. Their personalities.

Q. What's brown and black and looks good on a lawyer?
A. A doberman.

Q. Why are lawyers buried 12 feet underground?
A. Deep down their good.

Q. What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?
A. One's a slimy scum-sucking scavenger, the other is just a fish.

Q. Why are lawyers great in bed?
A. They get so much practice screwing people.

Q. What's the difference between a lawyer and a herd of buffalo?
A. The lawyer charges more.

thanks to "Loads of Jokes"

[Jay Beattie]

On Apr 29, 5:41*am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 28, 11:28*pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 28, 7:51*pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
> > > term ?
> > > Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
> > > 2 pages in
> > > And: product liability
> > > If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
> > > online database in the law library.
> > > Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
> > > database may be difficult, at first.
> > > Westlaw offers an English word search option.
> > > My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
> > > essay in the area.
> > > You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
> > > liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
> > > Online advert for some.
> > > They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
> > > company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
> > > compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
> > > and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
> > > control missed a serious flaw.
> > > Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
> > > about how much money guilty
> > > My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
> > > to go unnoticed.
>
> > Searching "products liability" in Westlaw would give you a bazillion
> > hits. *Just find a reputable lawyer and be prepared to give up a
> > quarter to half your recovery, depending on the fee agreement. *This
> > is an easy, easy case, and the only thing HazeRider has to worry about
> > is looking credible -- and injured. *He could handle the case himself,
> > but, like plumbing, it is time consuming if you do not know what you
> > are doing. *I wouldn't bother getting an expert report until first
> > attempting to get the case settled. I have defended a lot of broken
> > parts cases, and unless the failure arguably resulted from some
> > negligence on the part of the rider (crashing the pedal hard, whacking
> > it with a sledge hammer, using it to break up concrete, etc.), the
> > exact cause of the failure is not important -- except from an R&D
> > standpoint (and Look will want the pedal and a confidentiality
> > agreement as part of any settlement. *That's SOP). *The important
> > point is that the pedal broke JRA within a year after purchase -- and
> > the break caused the crash. *IMO, the argument is going to be over the
> > extent of damages. *Always remember that jurors generally hate
> > cyclists unless they are cute or particularly deserving. *Otherwise,
> > they are crazy risk-takers and obstacles to motorists (jurors).
> > HazeRider would be better off settling -- unless he is cute and
> > adorable or in a wheelchair. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Jay's practices law?
> the lawyer sez don't learn ahything about what you're doing (this in
> RBT no less) then the lawyer as expert sez and we quote: " I wouldn't
> bother getting an expert report until first
> attempting to get the case settled."
> Obviously, the company would not settle, without a lawyer or an
> expert. 'Easy' isnot a proper descriptor.
> search product liability in Google then use terms found in Google for
> the Westlaw search and further Google searchs.

I didn't say don't learn about products liability. I said don't word-
search Westlaw, assuming you could get it free of charge. It is a
very blunt tool for the novice. Google would be a better resource.

BTW, manufacturers frequently settle with unrepresented claimants who
do not have an expert report -- or even an expert. They just have a
prematurely failed part and injuries. I usually don't get involved
unless there is an attorney on the other side -- it's the adjusters
and risk managers who settle with the unrepresented claimants.

This is how it works for me: I get a call from a manufacturer or an
insurance company saying there is a new claim. I get the claim file
that has the usual demand letter -- it is usually from one of the
"bicycle attorneys" that I ride/rode with. No expert report. I call
him up, chit-chat, tell him not to loose the broken part. Send him a
confirming letter. I talk to the client who by then has had the part
looked at by an in-house engineer or a local metalurgist (or both). I
am told the thing was not properly glued, heat-treated, massaged,
prayed over, etc., etc. The deal is that if you make enough of
anything, a certain percentage will fail -- and that's what I usually
see -- the fraction of a percent of products that has a manufacturing
defect. I rarely see design defect cases (products that are
defectively designed and doomed to failure). This is because most
parts are tested a lot before marketing -- generally with giant
machines that whomp on them for hours. The exception to this rule is
some fly-by-night OEMs trying to beat some weight/price point.

When a properly designed and manufactured part breaks, that's when we
get the real fun with experts (and the inevitable warning claim -- you
should have warned me that I could not use my pedal as a hammer).
Sometimes there are causation problems -- whether the failure caused
the crash or vice versa. That's when the plaintiff needs a good
expert.

Anyway, in these no brainer kind of cases, it usually turns out the
case has not settled because my bicycle lawyer buddy is being an ass
and wants a million dollars for some guy with a scraped knee. I send
the plaintiff to an IME who indeed concludes he has a scraped knee.
We try to negotiate a settlement, but if we can't do it ourselves, we
go to a mediator. If that fails, we go to trial and let the jury tell
us what the case is worth. That is very rare these days -- most cases
settle. -- Jay Beattie.

[Dan O]

On Apr 29, 8:08 am, HazeRider <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> On Apr 28, 9:51 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
>
> > <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> > >OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
> > >discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>
> > >I'll try to figure it out.
>
> > >Ed
>
> > Dear Ed,
>
> > You can upload photos for free (not even registration is required) towww.tinypic.comandthen paste the short link into a post like this:
> > http://i31.tinypic.com/2iqdd13.jpg
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Carl Fogel
>
> OK, Here's some pictures........ Me day of the crash and with the
> evolving black eye of the following day. Also CU of pedal & axel.
> Note, upon looking at these with the passage of a little time I did
> notice the shear is not exactly flush with the crank. But maybe 3/4 of
> inch from the crank.
>
> http://i30.tinypic.com/307ybdu.jpg
>
> http://i30.tinypic.com/90njoh.jpg
>
> http://i29.tinypic.com/2upqs8l.jpg
>
> http://i28.tinypic.com/1hrwwj.jpg
>
> Ed

Inside bushing was shot (?)

[Martin Borsje]

HazeRider thought the rest of the world was interested to know that
> On Apr 28, 9:51*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
>>
>> <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
>>> OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
>>> discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>>> I'll try to figure it out.
>>
>>> Ed
>>
>> Dear Ed,
>>
>> You can upload photos for free (not even registration is required)
>> towww.tinypic.comand then paste the short link into a post like this:
>> *http://i31.tinypic.com/2iqdd13.jpg
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
> OK, Here's some pictures........ Me day of the crash and with the
> evolving black eye of the following day. Also CU of pedal & axel.
> Note, upon looking at these with the passage of a little time I did
> notice the shear is not exactly flush with the crank. But maybe 3/4 of
> inch from the crank.
>
>
> http://i30.tinypic.com/307ybdu.jpg
>
> http://i30.tinypic.com/90njoh.jpg
>
> http://i29.tinypic.com/2upqs8l.jpg
>
> http://i28.tinypic.com/1hrwwj.jpg
>
>
> Ed

Looks like fatigue failure.

Can you provide a close up of the last picture (axis cross section)?

Martin

[Kinky Cowboy]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:08:27 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
<ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:

>OK, Here's some pictures........ Me day of the crash and with the
>evolving black eye of the following day. Also CU of pedal & axel.
>Note, upon looking at these with the passage of a little time I did
>notice the shear is not exactly flush with the crank. But maybe 3/4 of
>inch from the crank.
>
>
>http://i30.tinypic.com/307ybdu.jpg
>
>http://i30.tinypic.com/90njoh.jpg
>
>http://i29.tinypic.com/2upqs8l.jpg
>
>http://i28.tinypic.com/1hrwwj.jpg
>

We'd need an actual close up* of the fracture face to indulge in
further uninformed speculation, sorry, expert analysis of the failure
mode. If I understand Keos right, it actually broke off just inboard
of the inboard bearing. I'm guessing the severe scuffing on the
underside is a result of your throwing it up the road, not a pre-crash
interface with the pavement. If it was like that before you crashed,
your putative claim is in trouble as pulling pedal grinds on concrete
ledges counts as abuse for a road pedal :-)

*Use the macro mode on your camera, and don't resize the image. I
think you'll be taking an image of an area about 2.5" across in Macro
mode at the minimum focusing distance of 4cm, which should make the
spindle about 600 pixels across

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:08:27 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
<ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:

>On Apr 28, 9:51Â*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
>>
>> <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
>> >OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
>> >discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>>
>> >I'll try to figure it out.
>>
>> >Ed
>>
>> Dear Ed,
>>
>> You can upload photos for free (not even registration is required) towww.tinypic.comand then paste the short link into a post like this:
>> Â*http://i31.tinypic.com/2iqdd13.jpg
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>OK, Here's some pictures........ Me day of the crash and with the
>evolving black eye of the following day. Also CU of pedal & axel.
>Note, upon looking at these with the passage of a little time I did
>notice the shear is not exactly flush with the crank. But maybe 3/4 of
>inch from the crank.
>
>
>http://i30.tinypic.com/307ybdu.jpg
>
>http://i30.tinypic.com/90njoh.jpg
>
>http://i29.tinypic.com/2upqs8l.jpg
>
>http://i28.tinypic.com/1hrwwj.jpg
>
>
>Ed
>
>
Well, it was DEFINITELY neither too tight or too loose that caused it.

From the looks of the pedal I'd say it has hit the ground more than
once, and that contributed to the failure. POSSIBLY a material issue
as well, but only insofar as it was not capable of withstanding the
abuse it was subjected too (which may or may not have been "excessive"
or "outside the design parameters")
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Bill]

"HazeRider" <ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote in message
news:f20c7eee-bbb6-4864-b6a0-73abc0e50478@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 28, 9:51 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
>
> <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> >OK Boys and Girls I was going to say here's the photos, and I just
> >discovered I don't know how to post an effing photo here.
>
> >I'll try to figure it out.
>
> >Ed
>
> Dear Ed,
>
> You can upload photos for free (not even registration is required)
> towww.tinypic.comand then paste the short link into a post like this:
> http://i31.tinypic.com/2iqdd13.jpg
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

OK, Here's some pictures........ Me day of the crash and with the
evolving black eye of the following day. Also CU of pedal & axel.
Note, upon looking at these with the passage of a little time I did
notice the shear is not exactly flush with the crank. But maybe 3/4 of
inch from the crank.


http://i30.tinypic.com/307ybdu.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/90njoh.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/2upqs8l.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/1hrwwj.jpg


Ed


At roadbikeriderreview.com there a three reviews out of 70 of keo sprint and
carbon pedals that have broken axels. That doesn't count the broken ti
axel.
http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/drivetrain/pedals/look/PRD_326179_2503crx.aspx#reviews
Bill

[datakoll]

that is ugly !

is the situation accounting statistics?

this grade is best caws of the intended run only 3-4 are scheduled to
snap off ???

itsnot like daze gotta buy 100k shafts, right ?

at $150 to an elite group of snotty tech weirdos you'd believe the
company would afford an unbreakable grade ?

I just cannot imagine my breaking a shaft on the $12 Nashbar bear
trapsbut there you have it...
forearmed is foresworon !

[HazeRider]

On Apr 29, 12:26*pm, Kinky Cowboy <u...@domain.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:08:27 -0700 (PDT),HazeRider
>
>
>
>
>
> <ed_hazelw...@aviationweek.com> wrote:
> >OK, *Here's some pictures........ Me day of the crash and with the
> >evolving black eye of the following day. Also CU of pedal & axel.
> >Note, upon looking at these with the passage of a little time I did
> >notice the shear is not exactly flush with the crank. But maybe 3/4 of
> >inch from the crank.
>
> >http://i30.tinypic.com/307ybdu.jpg
>
> >http://i30.tinypic.com/90njoh.jpg
>
> >http://i29.tinypic.com/2upqs8l.jpg
>
> >http://i28.tinypic.com/1hrwwj.jpg
>
> We'd need an actual close up* of the fracture face to indulge in
> further uninformed speculation, sorry, expert analysis of the failure
> mode. If I understand Keos right, it actually broke off just inboard
> of the inboard bearing. I'm guessing the severe scuffing on the
> underside is a result of your throwing it up the road, not a pre-crash
> interface with the pavement. If it was like that before you crashed,
> your putative claim is in trouble as pulling pedal grinds on concrete
> ledges counts as abuse for a road pedal :-)
>
> *Use the macro mode on your camera, and don't resize the image. I
> think you'll be taking an image of an area about 2.5" across in Macro
> mode at the minimum focusing distance of 4cm, which should make the
> spindle about 600 pixels across
>
> Kinky Cowboy*
>
> *Batteries not included
> May contain traces of nuts
> Your milage may vary
> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yeah, the camera has a macro mode so I'll give that a shot. BTW, all
that scuffing on the bottom of the pedal did come in the crash. Will
try to shoot it tonight.
Ed

[Jay Beattie]

On Apr 30, 12:19*pm, Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
> > term ?
> > Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
> > 2 pages in
> > And: product liability
> > If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
> > online database in the law library.
> > Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
> > database may be difficult, at first.
> > Westlaw offers an English word search option.
> > My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
> > essay in the area.
> > You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
> > liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
> > Online advert for some.
> > They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
> > company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
> > compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
> > and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
> > control missed a serious flaw.
> > Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
> > about how much money guilty
> > My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
> > to go unnoticed.
>
> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
> the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
> medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. *Unless you're
> looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
> would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. *You
> might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
> but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. *Just
> IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
> and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -
>
Your HO is right. In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled. See
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836

-- Jay Beattie.

[HazeRider]

On Apr 30, 5:08*pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> On Apr 30, 12:19*pm, Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
> > > term ?
> > > Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
> > > 2 pages in
> > > And: product liability
> > > If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
> > > online database in the law library.
> > > Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
> > > database may be difficult, at first.
> > > Westlaw offers an English word search option.
> > > My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
> > > essay in the area.
> > > You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
> > > liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
> > > Online advert for some.
> > > They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
> > > company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
> > > compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
> > > and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
> > > control missed a serious flaw.
> > > Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
> > > about how much money guilty
> > > My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
> > > to go unnoticed.
>
> > Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
> > the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
> > medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. *Unless you're
> > looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
> > would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. *You
> > might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
> > but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. *Just
> > IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
> > and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Your HO is right. *In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled. Seehttp://www.law..com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836
>
> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

OK.... all you experts and others..... here a couple of shots of the
close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think..


http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg

Ed

[Martin Borsje]

HazeRider thought the rest of the world was interested to know that
> On Apr 30, 5:08Â*pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 12:19Â*pm, Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
>>>> term ?
>>>> Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
>>>> 2 pages in
>>>> And: product liability
>>>> If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
>>>> online database in the law library.
>>>> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
>>>> database may be difficult, at first.
>>>> Westlaw offers an English word search option.
>>>> My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
>>>> essay in the area.
>>>> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
>>>> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
>>>> Online advert for some.
>>>> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
>>>> company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
>>>> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
>>>> and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
>>>> control missed a serious flaw.
>>>> Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
>>>> about how much money guilty
>>>> My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
>>>> to go unnoticed.
>>
>>> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
>>> the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
>>> medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. Â*Unless you're
>>> looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
>>> would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. Â*You
>>> might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
>>> but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. Â*Just
>>> IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
>>> and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> Your HO is right. Â*In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
>> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled.
>> Seehttp://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> OK.... all you experts and others..... here a couple of shots of the
> close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think..
>
>
> http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg
>
> http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg
>
> Ed

Looking at the first pic you can clearly see that here we have to do
with a classical case of metal fatigue

Starting from the top a crack begins to grow and at some moment the
remaining sound material is insufficient to bear the normal
instantaneous load and there you go :-(

The question is how and why such a fatigue crack can develop so fast:

1. base material unfit: too much hardenened
2. surface defects at the initiation of the crack, there is a sharp
notch where the diameter decreases with a step. I guess Look executes
this the same at all there pedals, so keep my fingers crossed.

Anyway: Within the time as stated in your original post this should not
have happened and imho you have a case.

Look as well at http://materials.open.ac.uk/mem/mem_mf.htm
Keep us informed.

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

Ed Hazelwood wrote:

>>>> Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search
>>>> word/term ?

>>>> Try

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE

>>>> SearchB... 2 pages in And: product liability If there’s a court
>>>> hose down the street try the Westlaw computer online database in
>>>> the law library.

>>>> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
>>>> database may be difficult, at first. Westlaw offers an English
>>>> word search option. My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw
>>>> offers a long annotated essay in the area.

>>>> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
>>>> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
>>>> Online advert for some.

>>>> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
>>>> company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
>>>> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility,
>>>> pain and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the
>>>> manufacturer’s quality control missed a serious flaw. Upfront
>>>> then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
>>>> about how much money guilty My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved
>>>> in front of a jury isnot likely to go unnoticed.

>>> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write
>>> to the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's
>>> injuries, medical reports etc. and then negotiate a
>>> settlement. Â*Unless you're looking for millions, I'd wager the
>>> manufacturer (or it's insurer) would just offer a settlement off
>>> hand for something like this. Â*You might need an inspection report
>>> if you really got into it with them, but I doubt if they'd need
>>> one to make a preliminary offer. Â*Just IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but
>>> know a little about product liability law and how cases are viewed
>>> by big companies.- Hide quoted text -

>> Your HO is right. Â*In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
>> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled. See:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836

> OK... all you experts and others... here a couple of shots of the
> close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think.

http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg

Nice failure picture! As you see, it fatigue cracked about half way
through in the semi smooth area with parallel waves of crack
propagation. Then stress concentration caused by the crack and
limited remaining material caused a forced fracture where typically
grain structure of the metal is visible and rough. Not being able to
see how deep and narrow the groove in the spindle was because the
outer end is not visible from the side, I assume it was sharp enough
to be a design flaw that initiated failure.

http://tinyurl.com/3kunfl

Although I cannot see the internal parts, I take it from reviews, that
it has a cartridge ball bearing at the outer end and needle bearing at
the attachment end. The description suggests the needle rollers run
directly on the spindle, which means the spindle must be case hardened
to give it a crust hard enough to act as inner race of the bearing.

That gets back to the subject of anodizing causing failure in aluminum
parts because a hard crust overlies more ductile material of lesser
yield strength. That together with a notch are killers. I would like
to see both parts of the spindle cleaned and laid side-by-sider with
the fracture facing the camera.

Jobst Brandt

[A Muzi]

>>> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
>>>> term ?
>>>> Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
>>>> 2 pages in
>>>> And: product liability
>>>> If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
>>>> online database in the law library.
>>>> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
>>>> database may be difficult, at first.
>>>> Westlaw offers an English word search option.
>>>> My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
>>>> essay in the area.
>>>> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
>>>> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
>>>> Online advert for some.
>>>> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
>>>> company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
>>>> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
>>>> and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
>>>> control missed a serious flaw.
>>>> Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
>>>> about how much money guilty
>>>> My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
>>>> to go unnoticed.

>> Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
>>> the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
>>> medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. Unless you're
>>> looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
>>> would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. You
>>> might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
>>> but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. Just
>>> IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
>>> and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -

> Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> Your HO is right. In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
>> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled. Seehttp://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836

HazeRider wrote:
> OK.... all you experts and others..... here a couple of shots of the
> close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think..
> http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg
> http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg

See the stress riser? It's undercut right where it failed.

I can't see if it has an inclusion or just dirt but Keo would most
probably settle that, based on "shouldn't do that in normal use". I'm
neither a metallurgist nor an attorney so my opinions carry little
weight here.

You did an axel? really? In midair?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada]

On Thu, 1 May 2008 10:03:54 -0700 (PDT), HazeRider
<ed_hazelwood@aviationweek.com> wrote:

>On Apr 30, 5:08Â*pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 12:19Â*pm, Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
>> > > term ?
>> > > Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
>> > > 2 pages in
>> > > And: product liability
>> > > If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
>> > > online database in the law library.
>> > > Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
>> > > database may be difficult, at first.
>> > > Westlaw offers an English word search option.
>> > > My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
>> > > essay in the area.
>> > > You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
>> > > liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
>> > > Online advert for some.
>> > > They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
>> > > company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
>> > > compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
>> > > and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
>> > > control missed a serious flaw.
>> > > Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
>> > > about how much money guilty
>> > > My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
>> > > to go unnoticed.
>>
>> > Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
>> > the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
>> > medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. Â*Unless you're
>> > looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
>> > would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. Â*You
>> > might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
>> > but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. Â*Just
>> > IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
>> > and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> Your HO is right. Â*In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
>> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled. Seehttp://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>OK.... all you experts and others..... here a couple of shots of the
>close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think..
>
>
>http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg
>
>http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg
>
>Ed
>
Fatigue crack at stress rizer from poorly radiused groove in the axle,
from what I can see.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[jim beam]

HazeRider wrote:
> On Apr 30, 5:08�pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 12:19�pm, Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Getting an idea of where you�re at legally is difficult: search word/
>>>> term ?
>>>> Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
>>>> 2 pages in
>>>> And: product liability
>>>> If there�s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
>>>> online database in the law library.
>>>> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
>>>> database may be difficult, at first.
>>>> Westlaw offers an English word search option.
>>>> My guess is �product liability� in Westlaw offers a long annotated
>>>> essay in the area.
>>>> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
>>>> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
>>>> Online advert for some.
>>>> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
>>>> company�s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
>>>> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
>>>> and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer�s quality
>>>> control missed a serious flaw.
>>>> Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
>>>> about how much money guilty
>>>> My opinion is a 9/16th�s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
>>>> to go unnoticed.
>>> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
>>> the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
>>> medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. �Unless you're
>>> looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
>>> would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. �You
>>> might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
>>> but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. �Just
>>> IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
>>> and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -
>> Your HO is right. �In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
>> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled. Seehttp://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> OK.... all you experts and others..... here a couple of shots of the
> close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think..
>
>
> http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg
>
> http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg
>
> Ed
>
>

ok, classic fatigue. the question is, what initiated it. how did that
corrosion creep do deep into the housing? did you ever use a pressure
washer on this bike? anything like "simple green" cleaning agents?

[Jay Beattie]

On May 1, 10:58*am, Martin Borsje <nos...@void.space> wrote:
> HazeRider *thought the rest of the world was interested to know that
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 30, 5:08*pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >> On Apr 30, 12:19*pm, Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search word/
> >>>> term ?
> >>>> Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
> >>>> 2 pages in
> >>>> And: product liability
> >>>> If there’s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
> >>>> online database in the law library.
> >>>> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
> >>>> database may be difficult, at first.
> >>>> Westlaw offers an English word search option.
> >>>> My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw offers a long annotated
> >>>> essay in the area.
> >>>> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
> >>>> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
> >>>> Online advert for some.
> >>>> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
> >>>> company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
> >>>> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
> >>>> and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer’s quality
> >>>> control missed a serious flaw.
> >>>> Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
> >>>> about how much money guilty
> >>>> My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
> >>>> to go unnoticed.
>
> >>> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
> >>> the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
> >>> medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. *Unless you're
> >>> looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
> >>> would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. *You
> >>> might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
> >>> but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. *Just
> >>> IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
> >>> and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> Your HO is right. *In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
> >> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled.
> >> Seehttp://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836
>
> >> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > OK.... all you experts and others..... *here a couple of shots of the
> > close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think..
>
> >http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg
>
> >http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg
>
> > Ed
>
> Looking at the first pic you can clearly see that here we have to do
> with a classical case of metal fatigue
>
> Starting from the top a crack begins to grow and at some moment the
> remaining sound material is insufficient to bear the normal
> instantaneous load and there you go :-(
>
> The question is how and why such a fatigue crack can develop so fast:
>
> 1. base material unfit: too much hardenened
> 2. surface defects at the initiation of the crack, there is a sharp
> notch where the diameter decreases with a step. I guess Look executes
> this the same at all there pedals, so keep my fingers crossed.
>
> Anyway: Within the time as stated in your original post this should not
> have happened and imho you have a case.
>
> Look as well athttp://materials.open.ac.uk/mem/mem_mf.htm
> Keep us informed.- Hide quoted text -

Caveat: I am not an engineer. The failure could have resulted from:
sharp step in spindle causing stress riser and cracking (probably not,
because you would see lots of failures in similar pedals), hardening
problem (you would also expect to see failures from the same batch), a
crack caused by fretting of the spindle by the bearing cartridge,
gouge during manufacture initiating crack, and finally, punishmnet
from God! Except for the last one, the manufacturer is responsible.--
Jay Beattie.

[jim beam]

Jay Beattie wrote:
> On May 1, 10:58�am, Martin Borsje <nos...@void.space> wrote:
>> HazeRider �thought the rest of the world was interested to know that
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 30, 5:08�pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>> On Apr 30, 12:19�pm, Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 28, 6:51 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Getting an idea of where you�re at legally is difficult: search word/
>>>>>> term ?
>>>>>> Tryhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-SearchB...
>>>>>> 2 pages in
>>>>>> And: product liability
>>>>>> If there�s a court hose down the street try the Westlaw computer
>>>>>> online database in the law library.
>>>>>> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
>>>>>> database may be difficult, at first.
>>>>>> Westlaw offers an English word search option.
>>>>>> My guess is �product liability� in Westlaw offers a long annotated
>>>>>> essay in the area.
>>>>>> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
>>>>>> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
>>>>>> Online advert for some.
>>>>>> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
>>>>>> company�s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
>>>>>> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility, pain
>>>>>> and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the manufacturer�s quality
>>>>>> control missed a serious flaw.
>>>>>> Upfront then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
>>>>>> about how much money guilty
>>>>>> My opinion is a 9/16th�s shaft waved in front of a jury isnot likely
>>>>>> to go unnoticed.
>>>>> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write to
>>>>> the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's injuries,
>>>>> medical reports etc. and then negotiate a settlement. �Unless you're
>>>>> looking for millions, I'd wager the manufacturer (or it's insurer)
>>>>> would just offer a settlement off hand for something like this. �You
>>>>> might need an inspection report if you really got into it with them,
>>>>> but I doubt if they'd need one to make a preliminary offer. �Just
>>>>> IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but know a little about product liability law
>>>>> and how cases are viewed by big companies.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> Your HO is right. �In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
>>>> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled.
>>>> Seehttp://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836
>>>> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> OK.... all you experts and others..... �here a couple of shots of the
>>> close up of the pedal and the axel. Let me know what you think..
>>> http://i26.tinypic.com/6rlpio.jpg
>>> http://i28.tinypic.com/2m5e8nq.jpg
>>> Ed
>> Looking at the first pic you can clearly see that here we have to do
>> with a classical case of metal fatigue
>>
>> Starting from the top a crack begins to grow and at some moment the
>> remaining sound material is insufficient to bear the normal
>> instantaneous load and there you go :-(
>>
>> The question is how and why such a fatigue crack can develop so fast:
>>
>> 1. base material unfit: too much hardenened
>> 2. surface defects at the initiation of the crack, there is a sharp
>> notch where the diameter decreases with a step. I guess Look executes
>> this the same at all there pedals, so keep my fingers crossed.
>>
>> Anyway: Within the time as stated in your original post this should not
>> have happened and imho you have a case.
>>
>> Look as well athttp://materials.open.ac.uk/mem/mem_mf.htm
>> Keep us informed.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Caveat: I am not an engineer. The failure could have resulted from:
> sharp step in spindle causing stress riser and cracking (probably not,
> because you would see lots of failures in similar pedals), hardening
> problem (you would also expect to see failures from the same batch), a
> crack caused by fretting of the spindle by the bearing cartridge,
> gouge during manufacture initiating crack, and finally, punishmnet
> from God! Except for the last one, the manufacturer is responsible.--
> Jay Beattie.

inclined to agree. the broken stub shows nothing other than the
possibility of a stress riser at the initiation point. i'd like to
compare the profile with the unbroken axle.

[Neal]

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:481a3017$0$34539$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
Ed Hazelwood wrote:

>>>> Getting an idea of where you’re at legally is difficult: search
>>>> word/term ?

>>>> Try

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE

>>>> SearchB... 2 pages in And: product liability If there’s a court
>>>> hose down the street try the Westlaw computer online database in
>>>> the law library.

>>>> Westlaw has all the answers but again search terms and using the
>>>> database may be difficult, at first. Westlaw offers an English
>>>> word search option. My guess is ‘product liability’ in Westlaw
>>>> offers a long annotated essay in the area.

>>>> You need to find an expert who does metallurgy or science product
>>>> liability and have the expert handle an inspection by his experts.
>>>> Online advert for some.

>>>> They write an inspection report as an affidavit, the offending
>>>> company’s legal staff will know your experts, and then you demand
>>>> compensation for your damages: medical bills, loss of mobility,
>>>> pain and suffering, possibly punitive damages if the
>>>> manufacturer’s quality control missed a serious flaw. Upfront
>>>> then, the manufacturer is guilty or not guilty then you argue
>>>> about how much money guilty My opinion is a 9/16th’s shaft waved
>>>> in front of a jury isnot likely to go unnoticed.

>>> Actually, probably all he needs to do is have a good lawyer write
>>> to the manufacturer with some photos of the pedal and the OP's
>>> injuries, medical reports etc. and then negotiate a
>>> settlement. Unless you're looking for millions, I'd wager the
>>> manufacturer (or it's insurer) would just offer a settlement off
>>> hand for something like this. You might need an inspection report
>>> if you really got into it with them, but I doubt if they'd need
>>> one to make a preliminary offer. Just IMHO, I'M NOT A LAWYER but
>>> know a little about product liability law and how cases are viewed
>>> by big companies.- Hide quoted text -

>> Your HO is right. In fact, depending on the company, an angry letter
>> from the consumer may be enough to get the case settled. See:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1095434457836

> OK... all you experts and others... here a couple of shots of the
> close up of the pedal and the a