Wal-Mart Italian Road Bike for $1198

[SMS]

While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.

"http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"

Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
the bike department?

[alanstew@sbcglobal.net]

On May 1, 7:58*pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
> Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
> the bike department?

Says right there in your linked page: "This bike was assembled by the
hands of skilled Italian
mechanics to be tuned up and ready to ride right out of the box."

Then contradicts itself: "Minimal assembly is required for this
premium bicycle."

I'm glad it assures us that they are 'skilled Italian mechanics', not
dumbass Italian mechanics.

ABS

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:1rvSj.3398$1b7.1748@newssvr13.news.prodigy.ne t...
| While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
| making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
| Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
|
| "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"
|
| Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
| Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
| the bike department?

I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked everything, not
just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of how much better use of
floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in S/M/L sizing!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On May 2, 4:58*am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
> making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
> Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
>
> "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"
>
> Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
> Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
> the bike department?

So they buy some commodity asian bikes from an Italian company. There
is NO WAY there is a "Fatta in Italia" sticker on the frame.

Joseph

[DougC]

SMS wrote:
> While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
> making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
> Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
>
> "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"
>
> Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
> Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
> the bike department?

The bikes are assembled in the Orient, as are most larger companies'
bikes. As I read somewhere, most of the time they are packed in a box
with only the handlebars turned sideways and the front wheel removed.
Anything else is not the kid at Wal-Mart's fault.
~

[DennisTheBald]

On May 1, 9:58 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
> making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
> Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
>

An Italian bike with Japanese components? go figure.

[landotter]

On May 1, 9:58 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
> making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
> Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
>
> "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"


Darn, I was hoping to see a big cardboard plate in the front wheel
that said "700c!"

[Rex Kerr]

SMS wrote:
> Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
> Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
> the bike department?

Why settle for the cheap one?

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751048

--
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
- Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester. (~1892)

[It's Chris]

WalMart has a bike department?

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

[Harry Brogan]

On Thu, 1 May 2008 23:48:02 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
>news:1rvSj.3398$1b7.1748@newssvr13.news.prodigy.ne t...
>| While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
>| making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
>| Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
>|
>| "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"
>|
>| Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
>| Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
>| the bike department?
>
>I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked everything, not
>just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of how much better use of
>floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in S/M/L sizing!
>
>--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>


Your forgot one...the sizing of XXXXXL for quite a few of the Wally
World shoppers!!!!!


__o | Every time I see an adult on a bicycle....
_`\(,_ | I no longer despair for the human race.
(_)/ (_) | ---H.G. Wells---

[Chalo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked everything, not
> just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of how much better use of
> floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in S/M/L sizing!

Too bad so many of LBS-market manufacturers, even ones who make
expensive bikes, now also subscribe to that kind of sizing.

One significant implication is that very large and very small frames
have mostly vanished from the scene.

Chalo

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked everything, not
> just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of how much better use of
> floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in S/M/L sizing!

I see some bicycles in bike shops that also come in that kind of sizing,
though they sometimes have XS, and XL as well.

[ZBicyclist]

Harry Brogan wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 23:48:02 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1rvSj.3398$1b7.1748@newssvr13.news.prodigy.ne t...
>>> While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at
>>> least
>>> making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105
>>> equipped Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays
>>> for
>>> around $1200.
>>>
>>> "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"
>>>
>>> Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
>>> Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school
>>> kid in the bike department?
>>
>> I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked
>> everything, not just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of
>> how
>> much better use of floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in
>> S/M/L sizing!
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>
>
>
> Your forgot one...the sizing of XXXXXL for quite a few of the
> Wally
> World shoppers!!!!!

Yes, "Size 3" in the women's section is XXXL, "Size 5" is XXXXXL,
etc.

You don't have to be morbidly obese to shop at Wal-mart, but it
helps.

[SMS]

Harry Brogan wrote:

> Your forgot one...the sizing of XXXXXL for quite a few of the Wally
> World shoppers!!!!!

Bicycle sizing is more by inseam, height, and arm length than by weight.

[Larry Farrell]

Harry Brogan wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 23:48:02 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1rvSj.3398$1b7.1748@newssvr13.news.prodigy.ne t...
>> | While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
>> | making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
>> | Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
>> |
>> | "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"
>> |
>> | Now we just have to figure out who's buying $1200 road bikes at
>> | Wal-Mart. Are these professionally assembled by that high school kid in
>> | the bike department?
>>
>> I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked everything, not
>> just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of how much better use of
>> floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in S/M/L sizing!
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>
>
>
> Your forgot one...the sizing of XXXXXL for quite a few of the Wally
> World shoppers!!!!!
>

Not needed. Those XXXXXL customers won't be shopping for bikes or any
other exercise equipment!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

| One significant implication is that very large and very small frames
| have mostly vanished from the scene.

Very small sizes have been a consumer "problem" for years. Customers shorter
than, say, 5'2 or so, may very well benefit from having 650c wheels instead
of 700c. But such bikes sit & rot on the floor, because they don't look
"normal" or because some ill-advised friend says you don't want 650c wheels
because you won't be able to get tires & tubes easily.

But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year. We sell quite a few of them.
For years, 62cm was the largest, so those over 6'3 were either difficult or
impossible to fit. We have now successfully fit someone 6'7 to a
high-quality road bike. Something we couldn't even think about doing before.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Chalo" <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:aa550855-4ff3-4213-8cda-5ce3f3215345@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
| Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
| >
| > I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked everything,
not
| > just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of how much better use of
| > floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in S/M/L sizing!
|
| Too bad so many of LBS-market manufacturers, even ones who make
| expensive bikes, now also subscribe to that kind of sizing.
|
| One significant implication is that very large and very small frames
| have mostly vanished from the scene.
|
| Chalo

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:VjGSj.671$nW2.658@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
| Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
|
| > I'll bet WalMart could save a lot of SKUs if they stocked everything,
not
| > just higher-end bikes, in S/M/L sizing. Think of how much better use of
| > floorspace you'd have if apparel only came in S/M/L sizing!
|
| I see some bicycles in bike shops that also come in that kind of sizing,
| though they sometimes have XS, and XL as well.

Which isn't great, but it's a retreat from Giant's original idea that,
indeed, you could fit everybody with a very small number of sizes. I don't
know if there's a magic number, it bit seems that, with 13 different sizes
for many of my bikes (8 men's, 5 women's), if I can't fit someone, I need to
find a new business. Trust me, I can understand the desire to tame
inventory! However, the desire to properly fit people so they really enjoy
riding is more important.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Stephen Harding]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> | I see some bicycles in bike shops that also come in that kind of sizing,
> | though they sometimes have XS, and XL as well.
>
> Which isn't great, but it's a retreat from Giant's original idea that,
> indeed, you could fit everybody with a very small number of sizes. I don't
> know if there's a magic number, it bit seems that, with 13 different sizes
> for many of my bikes (8 men's, 5 women's), if I can't fit someone, I need to
> find a new business. Trust me, I can understand the desire to tame
> inventory! However, the desire to properly fit people so they really enjoy
> riding is more important.

Well since you're in the business, I guess I have to cut you
some slack on critiquing the micro-fit view of getting someone
on a properly sized bike.

However I'm of the school that a small number of frame sizes
actually are all that is needed to produce "suitable fit".

I have road bikes of 58 and 60cm sizes (Trek 520 and 2000)
and mountain bikes of 54cm and 22 inch (dumpster rescued Trek
7000 and Raleigh Mojave 5.0).

With the addition of stem extenders and high rise, long stems
and many long seat posts available on the market, all my bikes
are quite comfortable.

They are different enough that when I get on one of them after
an absence of some time, they can "feel funny" at first, but I
have ridden some of these bikes very long distances. Last
year I broke my saddle time record while on a tour with over 9
hours of actual peddling in a day. No real problems.

Add to this the adjustability of the body itself, I think you
can have a very small number of bike sizes, combined with stem
and seatpost lengths/adjustments to handle proper fit of almost
anyone.

You're always going to have some small/large sized person
outliers that require more custom fits, but I believe three
sizes of bike in some S/M/L grouping would be sufficient for
90+% of the pedaling public.


SMH

[SMS]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
> Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year.

Thank g-d there is some hope! All those tall riders were sitting at home
watching television and eating junk food, waiting for Trek to give them
hope. Actually, believe it or not, there was hope even before Trek, as
hard as that is to believe.

There were several good quality 64cm road bicycles before the Madone,
I.e. the Douglas Fusion Ultegra SL, made by Litespeed, for Colorado
Cyclist is available in 64cm and is popular for taller riders. A good
deal at $1499 too. "http://www.coloradocyclist.com/product/kit/DXXAASU1".

Carbon frames that large tend to have problems of too much flex, which
is what the reviews of the 64cm Madone found. Colnago seems to have
solved this problem in their carbon fiber frames and they go up to 65 cm.

[Tom Sherman]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> [...]
> But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
> Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year. We sell quite a few of them.[...]

Was it really "completely out of the blue" or did people like you (Trek
dealers) ask for the larger size?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Cathy Kearns]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:vTGSj.62$8i5.3@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...
>| One significant implication is that very large and very small frames
> | have mostly vanished from the scene.
>
> Very small sizes have been a consumer "problem" for years. Customers
> shorter
> than, say, 5'2 or so, may very well benefit from having 650c wheels
> instead
> of 700c. But such bikes sit & rot on the floor, because they don't look
> "normal" or because some ill-advised friend says you don't want 650c
> wheels
> because you won't be able to get tires & tubes easily.

So I can find blue tires for my 650c wheels? Where? (Your brother's store
is close....)

I have a women's geometry 5000 trek from a few years back. I remember test
riding a slightly larger 5000, which we determined was too large. And a
different model women's trek the size of my bike. Both had 700c wheels. I
ordered the my bike, and didn't ask if it would have smaller wheels, since
the neither of those I test road had the smaller wheels. Yes, they
certainly look precious, but the bike does fit me.

However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When someone
has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of tubes, the others
can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad day I'm getting a ride
home. (But with the cute little wheels the bike will fit in any car.) My
husband and I needed two different stashes of tubes at home. I have 650c
wheels, and I can tell you, you don't want 650c wheels.

[Chalo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
>
> | One significant implication is that very large and very small frames
> | have mostly vanished from the scene.
>
> Very small sizes have been a consumer "problem" for years. Customers shorter
> than, say, 5'2 or so, may very well benefit from having 650c wheels instead
> of 700c. But such bikes sit & rot on the floor, because they don't look
> "normal" or because some ill-advised friend says you don't want 650c wheels
> because you won't be able to get tires & tubes easily.
>
> But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
> Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year. We sell quite a few of them.
> For years, 62cm was the largest, so those over 6'3 were either difficult or
> impossible to fit. We have now successfully fit someone 6'7 to a
> high-quality road bike.

High-quality road bike? I thought the Madone was made out of plastic
and formed in a mold. I know it's expensive for what it is, but taken
all together that would make Madones the equivalent of '80s Oakley
sunglasses-- cooked up like polymer waffles and sold at an umpteen
squillion percent markup.

I have a 68cm Nishiki road frame, a 68cm Fuji road frame, and a 68cm
Cannondale road frame, and in the past I had a 68cm Schwinn road
frame. I find it a bit puzzling that the "technology" of making
frames for all sizes of adults seems to have been lost. I'm
especially puzzled in light of the fact that plastic Treks have always
been lugged, and thus could have been made in just about any size,
like the lugged frames of yore.

Chalo

[It's Chris]

From: DennisTheBald@gmail.com (DennisTheBald)

>An Italian bike with Japanese
>components? go figure.

Hey, if the French are able to at least make an attempt at
standardizing, why not?

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

[Tom Sherman]

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> [...]
> Carbon frames that large tend to have problems of too much flex, which
> is what the reviews of the 64cm Madone found. Colnago seems to have
> solved this problem in their carbon fiber frames and they go up to 65 cm.
>
The larger CFRP frames being too flexible is just poor engineering, and
has nothing to do with the inherent properties of CFRP.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Tom Keats]

In article <SkKSj.2018$J16.1603@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
"ZBicyclist" <ZBicyclist@excite.com> writes:
>>
>> Your forgot one...the sizing of XXXXXL for quite a few of the
>> Wally
>> World shoppers!!!!!
>
> Yes, "Size 3" in the women's section is XXXL, "Size 5" is XXXXXL,
> etc.

I never knew women's sizes were in Roman numerals.

A size 5 must be a willowy whisper of a woman indeed.
In fact, pretty much an imaginary friend.

The PC version of S/M/L is: Petite/Medium/pLus.
I dunno if there's such a thing as a plus-sized
women's bike. If there is, I'm game to hang around
with the women who ride 'em. If they're willing to
hang around with (IOW, put up with) me. Especially
if they'd let me try out their bikes. I'd let them
try out mine, which would probably be a pretty good
plus-sized women's bike.

I don't do arm wrestling with women, though.
Not any more. It's too embarrassing when I lose.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[SMS]

landotter wrote:
> On May 1, 9:58 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> While it's no great deal, at least Wal-Mart appears to be at least
>> making an effort to move up-market with their offering of a 105 equipped
>> Italian-made road bike with carbon fork and seat stays for around $1200.
>>
>> "http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5751045"
>
>
> Darn, I was hoping to see a big cardboard plate in the front wheel
> that said "700c!"

Amusingly, the "26" Men's Kent GMC Denali Road Bike" has 700C wheels.

"http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3663046"

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
>> Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year. We sell quite a few of
>> them.[...]
>
> Was it really "completely out of the blue" or did people like you (Trek
> dealers) ask for the larger size?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia

Tom: We'd been asking for years, and pretty much given up. Especially with a
new, very-expensive (in terms of front-loaded costs per size of frame)
model. So it was "completely out of the blue" in terms of being unexpected,
but it certainly had been asked for. By us, and many others. Vociferously.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fvgdd9$18d$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> [...]
>> But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
>> Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year. We sell quite a few of
>> them.[...]
>
> Was it really "completely out of the blue" or did people like you (Trek
> dealers) ask for the larger size?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[SMS]

Tom Sherman wrote:
> SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>> [...]
>> Carbon frames that large tend to have problems of too much flex, which
>> is what the reviews of the 64cm Madone found. Colnago seems to have
>> solved this problem in their carbon fiber frames and they go up to 65 cm.
>>
> The larger CFRP frames being too flexible is just poor engineering, and
> has nothing to do with the inherent properties of CFRP.

To reduce the flex in the larger frames requires some engineering
enhancements because of the the inherent properties of carbon fiber.
Apparently Trek just made the frame larger, without understanding that
this wouldn't work.

Colnago describes what they did at
"http://www.colnago.com/en/catalogo2008/extremepower.php".

[Tom Sherman]

Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:vTGSj.62$8i5.3@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...
>> | One significant implication is that very large and very small frames
>> | have mostly vanished from the scene.
>>
>> Very small sizes have been a consumer "problem" for years. Customers
>> shorter
>> than, say, 5'2 or so, may very well benefit from having 650c wheels
>> instead
>> of 700c. But such bikes sit & rot on the floor, because they don't look
>> "normal" or because some ill-advised friend says you don't want 650c
>> wheels
>> because you won't be able to get tires & tubes easily.
>
> So I can find blue tires for my 650c wheels? Where? (Your brother's
> store is close....)
>
> I have a women's geometry 5000 trek from a few years back. I remember
> test riding a slightly larger 5000, which we determined was too large.
> And a different model women's trek the size of my bike. Both had 700c
> wheels. I ordered the my bike, and didn't ask if it would have smaller
> wheels, since the neither of those I test road had the smaller wheels.
> Yes, they certainly look precious, but the bike does fit me.
>
> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When
> someone has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of tubes,
> the others can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad day I'm
> getting a ride home. (But with the cute little wheels the bike will fit
> in any car.) My husband and I needed two different stashes of tubes at
> home. I have 650c wheels, and I can tell you, you don't want 650c wheels.

Calling ISO 571-mm (aka 650C) wheels small is very odd.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Chalo]

Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When someone
> has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of tubes, the others
> can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad day I'm getting a ride
> home. (But with the cute little wheels the bike will fit in any car.) My
> husband and I needed two different stashes of tubes at home. I have 650c
> wheels, and I can tell you, you don't want 650c wheels.

My wife and I often ride together, her on her bike with 700x28 tires
on 20mm wide rims, and me on my bike with 700x60 tires and 38mm wide
rims. We have to have different sized tubes with us. I might be able
to swipe one of her tubes if I were riding one of my 700x40 equipped
single-speeds, but she would have some difficulty using one of mine.

That little detail is not enough to make me want to use the same size
tire as she does.

Chalo

[peter]

On May 2, 7:17 pm, "Cathy Kearns" <cathy_kea...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When someone
> has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of tubes, the others
> can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad day I'm getting a ride
> home.

Although it's not ideal, it does work to substitute a 700c tube in a
650 tire. Just fold over the extra length and make sure it's tucked
away so the tire still sits properly with the bead in the hook of the
rim. In fact on one ride we successfully put a 700c tube into the 12"
wheel on the trailer one rider used to tow his daughter up Mt. Diablo.

Substituting for a tire would be more of a problem, but it's not that
often that anyone has a spare tire along anyway.

[It's Chris]

From: cathy_kearns@yahoo.com (Cathy*Kearns)
<snip>

>However, the guys and girls on my rides
>all have 700c tires. When someone has
>an extremely bad day, and goes through
>their stash of tubes, the others can loan
>them tires. If I have an extremely bad
>day I'm getting a ride home. (But with
>the cute little wheels the bike will fit in
>any car.) My husband and I needed two
>different stashes of tubes at home. I
>have 650c wheels, and I can tell you,
>you don't want 650c wheels.

Two words:

"Patch Kit"

One size really does fit all!

- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

My website:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

[Cathy Kearns]

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fvgkee$qog$2@registered.motzarella.org...
> Cathy Kearns wrote:
>>
>> I have a women's geometry 5000 trek from a few years back. I remember
>> test riding a slightly larger 5000, which we determined was too large.
>> And a different model women's trek the size of my bike. Both had 700c
>> wheels. I ordered the my bike, and didn't ask if it would have smaller
>> wheels, since the neither of those I test road had the smaller wheels.
>> Yes, they certainly look precious, but the bike does fit me.
>>
>> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When
>> someone has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of tubes,
>> the others can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad day I'm
>> getting a ride home. (But with the cute little wheels the bike will fit
>> in any car.) My husband and I needed two different stashes of tubes at
>> home. I have 650c wheels, and I can tell you, you don't want 650c
>> wheels.
>
> Calling ISO 571-mm (aka 650C) wheels small is very odd.

I believe I called them smallER than 700c wheels. Really, you think they
are the same size or something?

My problem is the 700c is so much more common than the 650c wheels that it's
almost a standard. Non-standard equipment is always harder to deal with.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
>> Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year. We sell quite a few of
>> them.
>> For years, 62cm was the largest, so those over 6'3 were either difficult
>> or
>> impossible to fit. We have now successfully fit someone 6'7 to a
>> high-quality road bike.
>
> High-quality road bike? I thought the Madone was made out of plastic
> and formed in a mold. I know it's expensive for what it is, but taken
> all together that would make Madones the equivalent of '80s Oakley
> sunglasses-- cooked up like polymer waffles and sold at an umpteen
> squillion percent markup.

Plastic? That's like someone telling you that your Nishiki & Fuji &
Cannondale are made from refined dirt.

Oh. Darn. They are. You could make an argument that just about everything
is.

Unless... unless it's made of materials produced in a cyclotron!

> I have a 68cm Nishiki road frame, a 68cm Fuji road frame, and a 68cm
> Cannondale road frame, and in the past I had a 68cm Schwinn road
> frame. I find it a bit puzzling that the "technology" of making
> frames for all sizes of adults seems to have been lost. I'm
> especially puzzled in light of the fact that plastic Treks have always
> been lugged, and thus could have been made in just about any size,
> like the lugged frames of yore.

I can't speak for the Fuji and Cannondale, whose designs (primarily tube
diameter and, to a lesser degree, wall thickness) may very well have been
scaled up for the greater stresses incurred with such a large frame size.
But your Nishiki, if it's from the old days, probably was not such a design.
Back in the days when steel was king, manufacturers nearly always used
exactly the same diameters, and quite often even the same wall thicknesses,
throughout their size range. Thankfully, in the largest sizes, butted tubing
often wasn't available so at least you had slightly more robust tubes than
would otherwise be the case.

Because the frames were lugged, tubing diameter was restricted to the same
size for all frames, because oversized production-style (cheap) lugs simply
did not exist. And, assuming your Nishiki was built this way, you're
experiencing a design that works much better for smaller sizes than for what
you ride.

The move to welded aluminum removed many of the cost constraints that
prevented using optimal designs for larger frame sizes, although it remained
rare to see a company actually take advantage of this. But for the most
part, even though it was technically easier to build a better, taller frame
out of aluminum, manufacturers abandoned the concept of building taller
frames in general, in an attempt to economize by optimizing their offerings
for the most-popular sizes and getting rid of those that sold in small
quantities.

Getting back to Trek, the "lugs" used are made differently for
different-sized frames. This adds very little cost, since each lugset is
different for each size frame to begin with, requiring its own mold and
layup schedule. It's not something that can be reshaped or cut & welded into
a different configuration like a steel lug might be. So then, you ask, why
hasn't Trek made the larger sizes available all along? Because the cost of
each set of molds for each size of frame is *very* expensive, and fringe
sizes quite likely won't amortize out the cost of the fittings (because the
volume won't be high enough) before the model runs its course.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA



"Chalo" <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1654e63c-fb53-4cdf-be82-3151fda70905@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>> Chalo wrote:
>>
>> | One significant implication is that very large and very small frames
>> | have mostly vanished from the scene.
>>
>> Very small sizes have been a consumer "problem" for years. Customers
>> shorter
>> than, say, 5'2 or so, may very well benefit from having 650c wheels
>> instead
>> of 700c. But such bikes sit & rot on the floor, because they don't look
>> "normal" or because some ill-advised friend says you don't want 650c
>> wheels
>> because you won't be able to get tires & tubes easily.
>>
>> But for the larger sizes, there is some hope. Completely out of the blue,
>> Trek decided to build a 64cm Madone this year. We sell quite a few of
>> them.
>> For years, 62cm was the largest, so those over 6'3 were either difficult
>> or
>> impossible to fit. We have now successfully fit someone 6'7 to a
>> high-quality road bike.
>
> High-quality road bike? I thought the Madone was made out of plastic
> and formed in a mold. I know it's expensive for what it is, but taken
> all together that would make Madones the equivalent of '80s Oakley
> sunglasses-- cooked up like polymer waffles and sold at an umpteen
> squillion percent markup.
>
> I have a 68cm Nishiki road frame, a 68cm Fuji road frame, and a 68cm
> Cannondale road frame, and in the past I had a 68cm Schwinn road
> frame. I find it a bit puzzling that the "technology" of making
> frames for all sizes of adults seems to have been lost. I'm
> especially puzzled in light of the fact that plastic Treks have always
> been lugged, and thus could have been made in just about any size,
> like the lugged frames of yore.
>
> Chalo

[Tom Sherman]

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Carbon frames that large tend to have problems of too much flex,
>>> which is what the reviews of the 64cm Madone found. Colnago seems to
>>> have solved this problem in their carbon fiber frames and they go up
>>> to 65 cm.
>>>
>> The larger CFRP frames being too flexible is just poor engineering,
>> and has nothing to do with the inherent properties of CFRP.
>
> To reduce the flex in the larger frames requires some engineering
> enhancements because of the the inherent properties of carbon fiber.

Specifically what properties? Elastic modulus - all solids have one,
just differing in magnitude. Steel, aluminium alloy and
titanium/titanium alloy frames also need to be designed differently in
larger sizes to keep them from being more flexible than smaller sizes.

> Apparently Trek just made the frame larger, without understanding that
> this wouldn't work.
>
> Colnago describes what they did at
> "http://www.colnago.com/en/catalogo2008/extremepower.php".
>
"The Extreme-Power was born to meet the demands of sprinters Alessandro
Petacchi and Erik Zabel of Team Milram and three time World Champion
Oscar Freire of Team Rabobank who all have a power output of 180 kg for
each pedal stroke."

WTF? When did the kilogram (kg) become a unit of power instead of mass?

Quick, notify the General Conference on Weights and Measures of this change!

Do people actually get paid to write this stuff?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> The larger CFRP frames being too flexible is just poor engineering, and
>> has nothing to do with the inherent properties of CFRP.
>
> To reduce the flex in the larger frames requires some engineering
> enhancements because of the the inherent properties of carbon fiber.
> Apparently Trek just made the frame larger, without understanding that
> this wouldn't work.

Your information is... interesting. I've sold a number of these bikes, all
of them to people who rode other machines and were more than impressed with
how the Trek rode. Being too-flexy was never once mentioned. You could
(reasonably) argue that the sample size I refer to are those who have
actually purchased the bikes, which results in a strong bias. Except that I
don't have much of anything else to go on, because people-of-height who ride
them invariably buy them.

And the "engineering enhancements" are definitely there. The 5.5 version of
the frame doesn't use the same layup found on any of the other sizes, and
the fittings etc are unique, and specifically designed for, that size.
That's the case for every Trek size; there's nothing unusual about having to
do that. If a quality manufacturer were to build a 47cm frame the same way
they build a 58cm, the 47cm would be dramatically overbuilt (or the 58cm
underbuilt). With carbon fiber, there's no reason to do that, unless you're
trying to save money where it shouldn't be saved.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:FHRSj.1897$3O7.813@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net ...
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Carbon frames that large tend to have problems of too much flex, which
>>> is what the reviews of the 64cm Madone found. Colnago seems to have
>>> solved this problem in their carbon fiber frames and they go up to 65
>>> cm.
>>>
>> The larger CFRP frames being too flexible is just poor engineering, and
>> has nothing to do with the inherent properties of CFRP.
>
> To reduce the flex in the larger frames requires some engineering
> enhancements because of the the inherent properties of carbon fiber.
> Apparently Trek just made the frame larger, without understanding that
> this wouldn't work.
>
> Colnago describes what they did at
> "http://www.colnago.com/en/catalogo2008/extremepower.php".
>

[Tom Sherman]

Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fvgkee$qog$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Cathy Kearns wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a women's geometry 5000 trek from a few years back. I
>>> remember test riding a slightly larger 5000, which we determined was
>>> too large. And a different model women's trek the size of my bike.
>>> Both had 700c wheels. I ordered the my bike, and didn't ask if it
>>> would have smaller wheels, since the neither of those I test road had
>>> the smaller wheels. Yes, they certainly look precious, but the bike
>>> does fit me.
>>>
>>> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When
>>> someone has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of
>>> tubes, the others can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad
>>> day I'm getting a ride home. (But with the cute little wheels the
>>> bike will fit in any car.) My husband and I needed two different
>>> stashes of tubes at home. I have 650c wheels, and I can tell you,
>>> you don't want 650c wheels.
>>
>> Calling ISO 571-mm (aka 650C) wheels small is very odd.
>
> I believe I called them smallER than 700c wheels.

And you also called them "cute little wheels".

> Really, you think they are the same size or something?

No, ISO 571-mm wheels are actually quite large.

This is a bicycle with cute little wheels:
<http://www.cycleurope.co.jp/2008/novt.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[ZBicyclist]

Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Colnago describes what they did at
>> "http://www.colnago.com/en/catalogo2008/extremepower.php".
>>
> "The Extreme-Power was born to meet the demands of sprinters
> Alessandro Petacchi and Erik Zabel of Team Milram and three time
> World Champion Oscar Freire of Team Rabobank who all have a power
> output of 180 kg
> for each pedal stroke."
>
> WTF? When did the kilogram (kg) become a unit of power instead of
> mass?
> Quick, notify the General Conference on Weights and Measures of
> this
> change!
> Do people actually get paid to write this stuff?

Watts your problem?

[Bob]

On May 2, 11:56*pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
> > "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:fvgkee$qog$2@registered.motzarella.org...
> >> Cathy Kearns wrote:
>
> >>> I have a women's geometry 5000 trek from a few years back. *I
> >>> remember test riding a slightly larger 5000, which we determined was
> >>> too large. And a different model women's trek the size of my bike. *
> >>> Both had 700c wheels. *I ordered the my bike, and didn't ask if it
> >>> would have smaller wheels, since the neither of those I test road had
> >>> the smaller wheels. Yes, they certainly look precious, but the bike
> >>> does fit me.
>
> >>> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. *When
> >>> someone has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of
> >>> tubes, the others can loan them tires. *If I have an extremely bad
> >>> day I'm getting a ride home. *(But with the cute little wheels the
> >>> bike will fit in any car.) My husband and I needed two different
> >>> stashes of tubes at home. *I have 650c wheels, and I can tell you,
> >>> you don't want 650c wheels.
>
> >> Calling ISO 571-mm (aka 650C) wheels small is very odd.
>
> > I believe I called them smallER than 700c wheels.
>
> And you also called them "cute little wheels".
>
> > *Really, you think they are the same size or something?
>
> No, ISO 571-mm wheels are actually quite large.
>
> This is a bicycle with cute little wheels:
> <http://www.cycleurope.co.jp/2008/novt.html>.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Cathy's "cute little wheels" are only quite large when compared to
something like the 14" wheels on the folding stem bike in the link you
posted but *both* seem tiny in comparison to the front wheel of a
nineteenth century ordinary. All things are relative.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

[Tom Sherman]

Chalo Colina wrote:
> Cathy Kearns wrote:
>> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When someone
>> has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of tubes, the others
>> can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad day I'm getting a ride
>> home. (But with the cute little wheels the bike will fit in any car.) My
>> husband and I needed two different stashes of tubes at home. I have 650c
>> wheels, and I can tell you, you don't want 650c wheels.
>
> My wife and I often ride together, her on her bike with 700x28 tires
> on 20mm wide rims, and me on my bike with 700x60 tires and 38mm wide
> rims. We have to have different sized tubes with us. I might be able
> to swipe one of her tubes if I were riding one of my 700x40 equipped
> single-speeds, but she would have some difficulty using one of mine.
>
> That little detail is not enough to make me want to use the same size
> tire as she does.
>
Does not your wife weigh about 1/3 Chalo?

Similarly, having two similar size riders on a tandem with the same tire
sizes and inflation pressures as they use on their singles would be silly.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[SMS]

Stephen Harding wrote:

> With the addition of stem extenders and high rise, long stems
> and many long seat posts available on the market, all my bikes
> are quite comfortable.

That reminds me of the old Midas commercial where the competitor only
has one model of muffler, and the mechanic says "fit? we'll MAKE it fit"
and brings out a bunch of adapters and pipes.

What you're doing will work, but it's the wrong way of getting the bike
to fit.

[Chalo]

Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> Chalo Colina wrote:
> >
> > Cathy Kearns wrote:
> >>
> >> My
> >> husband and I needed two different stashes of tubes at home. I have 650c
> >> wheels, and I can tell you, you don't want 650c wheels.
>
> > My wife and I often ride together, her on her bike with 700x28 tires
> > on 20mm wide rims, and me on my bike with 700x60 tires and 38mm wide
> > rims. We have to have different sized tubes with us. I might be able
> > to swipe one of her tubes if I were riding one of my 700x40 equipped
> > single-speeds, but she would have some difficulty using one of mine.
>
> > That little detail is not enough to make me want to use the same size
> > tire as she does.
>
> Does not your wife weigh about 1/3 Chalo?

It wouldn't be circumspect of me to discuss that. You can draw your
own conclusions:

http://datribean.com/presskit.html

She's about 5'8" tall.

> Similarly, having two similar size riders on a tandem with the same tire
> sizes and inflation pressures as they use on their singles would be silly.

I was only demonstrating that using the same rim diameter does not
necessarily mean you can interchange consumables.

I used to believe that at a given pressure, tire width should be
proportional to the load (or conversely, that at a given tire width,
pressure should be proportional to load). Observation has shown me
that tire internal volume serves as a better indicator of load
capacity and/or appropriate pressure. My bike with 700x35 tires (32mm
actual) is the closest equivalent I have to my wife's bike with 700x28
tires (26mm actual). Those bikes can probably use the same tubes and
tires if the need arises.

Chalo

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> With the addition of stem extenders and high rise, long stems
>> and many long seat posts available on the market, all my bikes
>> are quite comfortable.
>
> That reminds me of the old Midas commercial where the competitor only has
> one model of muffler, and the mechanic says "fit? we'll MAKE it fit" and
> brings out a bunch of adapters and pipes.

We explain (when we don't have the right size in stock, and somebody expects
us to make something else fit) that we used to have an alternative that
worked for all but those too-tall for our largest frame. A "rack" in our
warehouse where we could stretch the customer to fit the frame. The problem
was that we couldn't get adequate sound proofing to muffle the screams, and
the noises would attract a very odd clientele to the shop.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:Zb%Sj.2090$J16.413@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net ...
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>> With the addition of stem extenders and high rise, long stems
>> and many long seat posts available on the market, all my bikes
>> are quite comfortable.
>
> That reminds me of the old Midas commercial where the competitor only has
> one model of muffler, and the mechanic says "fit? we'll MAKE it fit" and
> brings out a bunch of adapters and pipes.
>
> What you're doing will work, but it's the wrong way of getting the bike to
> fit.

[Stephen Harding]

SMS wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>> With the addition of stem extenders and high rise, long stems
>> and many long seat posts available on the market, all my bikes
>> are quite comfortable.
>
>
> That reminds me of the old Midas commercial where the competitor only
> has one model of muffler, and the mechanic says "fit? we'll MAKE it fit"
> and brings out a bunch of adapters and pipes.
>
> What you're doing will work, but it's the wrong way of getting the bike
> to fit.

Why is it "wrong"?

I don't see it as any more "wrong" than moving an existing
seat post up or down, sliding the saddle back or forward on
the post, or, in the days of quill stems, moving it up or
down, not to mention rotating an angled bar forward or backward
to adjust reach a bit more.

I've only had to buy an extra long seat post for that 54cm
dumpster queen I rescued, which is a way too small frame for
my 6'1" body.

Yet I've managed to ride it quite comfortably for up to 65
miles.

I'll agree that adding extra money to purchase a special long
seatpost or stem extender is more money needlessly spent if
one could have purchased a more appropriate frame size to
start out with.

However, I am of the opinion a three frame size range would
get most people properly adjusted on their bikes using the
seatposts/stems/risers/saddle positions the bike came with.

Just my opinion. Mike J surely sees many more types of
bicyclist/bike matching challenges than I do, so what seems
fine from my more limited perspective may not capture the
big picture in fitting issues.


SMH

[Paul O]

ZBicyclist wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>>> Colnago describes what they did at
>>> "http://www.colnago.com/en/catalogo2008/extremepower.php".
>>>
>>>
>> "The Extreme-Power was born to meet the demands of sprinters
>> Alessandro Petacchi and Erik Zabel of Team Milram and three time
>> World Champion Oscar Freire of Team Rabobank who all have a power
>> output of 180 kg
>> for each pedal stroke."
>>
>> WTF? When did the kilogram (kg) become a unit of power instead of
>> mass?
>> Quick, notify the General Conference on Weights and Measures of
>> this
>> change!
>> Do people actually get paid to write this stuff?
>>
>
> Watts your problem?
>
>
>
Ohm no! I erg you to stop this before this gets out of hand.
Paul O.

--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)

[Chalo]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > I thought the Madone was made out of plastic
> > and formed in a mold. I know it's expensive for what it is, but taken
> > all together that would make Madones the equivalent of '80s Oakley
> > sunglasses-- cooked up like polymer waffles and sold at an umpteen
> > squillion percent markup.
>
> Plastic? That's like someone telling you that your Nishiki & Fuji &
> Cannondale are made from refined dirt.

No, it's like saying they are made from "metal" rather than "quad-
butted Valite!"

Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
marketing-termish thing you could call them.

Chalo

[ZBicyclist]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> With the addition of stem extenders and high rise, long stems
>>> and many long seat posts available on the market, all my bikes
>>> are quite comfortable.
>>
>> That reminds me of the old Midas commercial where the competitor
>> only has one model of muffler, and the mechanic says "fit? we'll
>> MAKE it fit" and brings out a bunch of adapters and pipes.
>
> We explain (when we don't have the right size in stock, and
> somebody
> expects us to make something else fit) that we used to have an
> alternative that worked for all but those too-tall for our largest
> frame. A "rack" in our warehouse where we could stretch the
> customer
> to fit the frame. The problem was that we couldn't get adequate
> sound
> proofing to muffle the screams, and the noises would attract a
> very
> odd clientele to the shop.
Anything to rack up a sale, I see.

[Tom Sherman]

Chalo Colina wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Chalo wrote:
>>> I thought the Madone was made out of plastic
>>> and formed in a mold. I know it's expensive for what it is, but taken
>>> all together that would make Madones the equivalent of '80s Oakley
>>> sunglasses-- cooked up like polymer waffles and sold at an umpteen
>>> squillion percent markup.
>> Plastic? That's like someone telling you that your Nishiki & Fuji &
>> Cannondale are made from refined dirt.
>
> No, it's like saying they are made from "metal" rather than "quad-
> butted Valite!"
>
> Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
> polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
> epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
> marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>
I thought plastic referred to non-recoverable deformation, not a
material type. The correct term is polymer.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Aeek]

On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
<chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:

>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
>marketing-termish thing you could call them.

I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
That said, my daily ride is an alloy track bike with front brake.
Neither of them are exactly practical, but my steel-is-real tourer has
barely been ridden in 9 months. Its time will come again.

[Chalo]

Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> Chalo Colina wrote:
> >
> > Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
> > polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
> > epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
> > marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>
> I thought plastic referred to non-recoverable deformation, not a
> material type. The correct term is polymer.

Almost every plastic material is not a single polymer, but a mixture
of polymer resins along with fillers to modify the properties of the
resin mixture. So you could say, "filled copolymer" most of the time,
specifying a filled single-resin polymer or unfilled polymers or
copolymers as the material dictates, or you could call them all
"plastics", just as the term "metal" refers equally to alloys, pure
metallic elements, unmixed combinations, or metal-matrix composites.

My point is just that characterizing a frame as being made from
"carbon fiber" is like saying another one is made from "scandium".
Both are actually composed mostly of other substances, and the most
generic terms for those mixtures are respectively "plastic" and
"metal".

Chalo

[Tom Keats]

In article <4eer141o6umngf02gmmneo7tt886aeoee1@4ax.com>,
Aeek <aeeeeeek@tpg.com.au> writes:
> On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
> <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
>>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
>>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
>>marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>
> I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's the main thing. <shrug> Who can complain?
Nothing beats a bike that's a joy to ride, as well
as a pleasure to just ~have~.

Which reminds me: I've gotta get around to doing
something about my heron-motif-edition Raleigh Twenty.
It's a beauty, but the stock chrome wheels are so
fubar'dly out of true. I dunno whether to keep 'em
(and the whole bike) stock & original, or stick more
practical alu-alloy rims on there. I'm still thinking
about it. Some decent steerer bearings wouldn't hurt
either, if I could replace the existing nylon bushings.
I've also thought about replacing the flexy front brake,
but that's part of what makes a Twenty a Twenty.

I bet your Madone cuts through headwinds way better
than my daily whip (an old-skool Mountain Touring Bike,
with more emphasis on the "touring" than the "mountain".)

> That said, my daily ride is an alloy track bike with front brake.
> Neither of them are exactly practical, but my steel-is-real tourer has
> barely been ridden in 9 months. Its time will come again.

If you use it, it's practical.

You are obviously saving your tourer for "best",
like your best suit. Nothing wrong with that.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[landotter]

On May 4, 2:51 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <4eer141o6umngf02gmmneo7tt886aeo...@4ax.com>,
> Aeek <aeeee...@tpg.com.au> writes:> On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
> > <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
> >>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
> >>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
> >>marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>
> > I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> That's the main thing. <shrug> Who can complain?
> Nothing beats a bike that's a joy to ride, as well
> as a pleasure to just ~have~.
>
> Which reminds me: I've gotta get around to doing
> something about my heron-motif-edition Raleigh Twenty.
> It's a beauty, but the stock chrome wheels are so
> fubar'dly out of true. I dunno whether to keep 'em
> (and the whole bike) stock & original, or stick more
> practical alu-alloy rims on there. I'm still thinking
> about it. Some decent steerer bearings wouldn't hurt
> either, if I could replace the existing nylon bushings.
> I've also thought about replacing the flexy front brake,
> but that's part of what makes a Twenty a Twenty.

What makes a Twenty great is the frame and the rear hub, the rest is
mainly junky. Get some Alex DM24s laced up for it for cheap. Steal a
fork from a kid's bike so you can use a good headset.

What's the brake reach? Either something bmx or that new reeeeeally
long reach dual pivot Tektro might fit the bill.

[Tom Keats]

In article <5cdad214-7f52-45a0-8e46-a15a5f45dd7d@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
landotter <landotter@gmail.com> writes:
> On May 4, 2:51 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article <4eer141o6umngf02gmmneo7tt886aeo...@4ax.com>,
>> Aeek <aeeee...@tpg.com.au> writes:> On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
>> > <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
>> >>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
>> >>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
>> >>marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>>
>> > I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> That's the main thing. <shrug> Who can complain?
>> Nothing beats a bike that's a joy to ride, as well
>> as a pleasure to just ~have~.
>>
>> Which reminds me: I've gotta get around to doing
>> something about my heron-motif-edition Raleigh Twenty.
>> It's a beauty, but the stock chrome wheels are so
>> fubar'dly out of true. I dunno whether to keep 'em
>> (and the whole bike) stock & original, or stick more
>> practical alu-alloy rims on there. I'm still thinking
>> about it. Some decent steerer bearings wouldn't hurt
>> either, if I could replace the existing nylon bushings.
>> I've also thought about replacing the flexy front brake,
>> but that's part of what makes a Twenty a Twenty.
>
> What makes a Twenty great is the frame and the rear hub, the rest is
> mainly junky.

Steel handlebars have earned my respect.

The only thing junky on my Twenty is
the fat-assed aftermarket saddle.

The chainring with its fretworked herons
in the spokes is to die for. The pedals
are pretty with their relief herons in the
rubber. The paint is plum brown with gold
highlights here 'n there. The fenders are
sparkling chrome. If I obtained the stock
saddle, matching-coloured frame pump and a
S-A faceplate, it'd be like new out of the box.

> Get some Alex DM24s laced up for it for cheap. Steal a
> fork from a kid's bike so you can use a good headset.
>
> What's the brake reach?

Almost a foot.


cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[landotter]

On May 4, 7:15 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <5cdad214-7f52-45a0-8e46-a15a5f45d...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On May 4, 2:51 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> >> In article <4eer141o6umngf02gmmneo7tt886aeo...@4ax.com>,
> >> Aeek <aeeee...@tpg.com.au> writes:> On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
> >> > <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
> >> >>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
> >> >>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
> >> >>marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>
> >> > I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >> That's the main thing. <shrug> Who can complain?
> >> Nothing beats a bike that's a joy to ride, as well
> >> as a pleasure to just ~have~.
>
> >> Which reminds me: I've gotta get around to doing
> >> something about my heron-motif-edition Raleigh Twenty.
> >> It's a beauty, but the stock chrome wheels are so
> >> fubar'dly out of true. I dunno whether to keep 'em
> >> (and the whole bike) stock & original, or stick more
> >> practical alu-alloy rims on there. I'm still thinking
> >> about it. Some decent steerer bearings wouldn't hurt
> >> either, if I could replace the existing nylon bushings.
> >> I've also thought about replacing the flexy front brake,
> >> but that's part of what makes a Twenty a Twenty.
>
> > What makes a Twenty great is the frame and the rear hub, the rest is
> > mainly junky.
>
> Steel handlebars have earned my respect.
>
> The only thing junky on my Twenty is
> the fat-assed aftermarket saddle.
>
> The chainring with its fretworked herons
> in the spokes is to die for. The pedals
> are pretty with their relief herons in the
> rubber. The paint is plum brown with gold
> highlights here 'n there. The fenders are
> sparkling chrome. If I obtained the stock
> saddle, matching-coloured frame pump and a
> S-A faceplate, it'd be like new out of the box.

Oh, it's a trailer queen! Yeah, usually you can salvage Brit chrome,
but I don't see the point in running stock rims unless it's a display
bike. Same goes for saddles and grips. The brake calipers on Sports
can be made quite functional with modern levers, pads, and cables.

[Chalo]

On May 4, 7:15 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <5cdad214-7f52-45a0-8e46-a15a5f45d...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On May 4, 2:51 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> >> In article <4eer141o6umngf02gmmneo7tt886aeo...@4ax.com>,
> >> Aeek <aeeee...@tpg.com.au> writes:> On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
> >> > <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
> >> >>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
> >> >>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
> >> >>marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>
> >> > I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >> That's the main thing. <shrug> Who can complain?
> >> Nothing beats a bike that's a joy to ride, as well
> >> as a pleasure to just ~have~.
>
> >> Which reminds me: I've gotta get around to doing
> >> something about my heron-motif-edition Raleigh Twenty.
> >> It's a beauty, but the stock chrome wheels are so
> >> fubar'dly out of true. I dunno whether to keep 'em
> >> (and the whole bike) stock & original, or stick more
> >> practical alu-alloy rims on there. I'm still thinking
> >> about it. Some decent steerer bearings wouldn't hurt
> >> either, if I could replace the existing nylon bushings.
> >> I've also thought about replacing the flexy front brake,
> >> but that's part of what makes a Twenty a Twenty.
>
> > What makes a Twenty great is the frame and the rear hub, the rest is
> > mainly junky.
>
> Steel handlebars have earned my respect.
>
> The only thing junky on my Twenty is
> the fat-assed aftermarket saddle.
>
> The chainring with its fretworked herons
> in the spokes is to die for. The pedals
> are pretty with their relief herons in the
> rubber. The paint is plum brown with gold
> highlights here 'n there. The fenders are
> sparkling chrome. If I obtained the stock
> saddle, matching-coloured frame pump and a
> S-A faceplate, it'd be like new out of the box.

Lots of BMX/freestyle rims are chromed aluminum. One of those might
be a better aesthetic choice for your Twenty than a polished or
anodized aluminum rim.

Chalo

[Tom Sherman]

Bob Hunt wrote:
> On May 2, 11:56 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Cathy Kearns wrote:
>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fvgkee$qog$2@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>> Cathy Kearns wrote:
>>>>> I have a women's geometry 5000 trek from a few years back. I
>>>>> remember test riding a slightly larger 5000, which we determined was
>>>>> too large. And a different model women's trek the size of my bike.
>>>>> Both had 700c wheels. I ordered the my bike, and didn't ask if it
>>>>> would have smaller wheels, since the neither of those I test road had
>>>>> the smaller wheels. Yes, they certainly look precious, but the bike
>>>>> does fit me.
>>>>> However, the guys and girls on my rides all have 700c tires. When
>>>>> someone has an extremely bad day, and goes through their stash of
>>>>> tubes, the others can loan them tires. If I have an extremely bad
>>>>> day I'm getting a ride home. (But with the cute little wheels the
>>>>> bike will fit in any car.) My husband and I needed two different
>>>>> stashes of tubes at home. I have 650c wheels, and I can tell you,
>>>>> you don't want 650c wheels.
>>>> Calling ISO 571-mm (aka 650C) wheels small is very odd.
>>> I believe I called them smallER than 700c wheels.
>> And you also called them "cute little wheels".
>>
>>> Really, you think they are the same size or something?
>> No, ISO 571-mm wheels are actually quite large.
>>
>> This is a bicycle with cute little wheels:
>> <http://www.cycleurope.co.jp/2008/novt.html>.
>
> Cathy's "cute little wheels" are only quite large when compared to
> something like the 14" wheels on the folding stem bike in the link you
> posted but *both* seem tiny in comparison to the front wheel of a
> nineteenth century ordinary. All things are relative.
>
Compared to what the devil rides, ordinaries have small wheels:
<http://www.bicimilano.it/images/diavolodeltour.jpg>,
<http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/080nbPO1PoeBA/610x.jpg>,
<http://www.corriere.it/Media/Foto/2006/02_Febbraio/04/fdg/BICI.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[dgk]

On Mon, 5 May 2008 06:50:16 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
<chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>> Chalo Colina wrote:
>> >
>> > Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
>> > polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
>> > epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
>> > marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>>
>> I thought plastic referred to non-recoverable deformation, not a
>> material type. The correct term is polymer.
>
>Almost every plastic material is not a single polymer, but a mixture
>of polymer resins along with fillers to modify the properties of the
>resin mixture. So you could say, "filled copolymer" most of the time,
>specifying a filled single-resin polymer or unfilled polymers or
>copolymers as the material dictates, or you could call them all
>"plastics", just as the term "metal" refers equally to alloys, pure
>metallic elements, unmixed combinations, or metal-matrix composites.
>
>My point is just that characterizing a frame as being made from
>"carbon fiber" is like saying another one is made from "scandium".
>Both are actually composed mostly of other substances, and the most
>generic terms for those mixtures are respectively "plastic" and
>"metal".
>
>Chalo


You know, with that kind of attitude you are NEVER going to get a job
in marketing.

[Tom Keats]

In article <c3b1b751-ec4b-4696-9a8d-ee83637c3e4b@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> writes:
> On May 4, 7:15 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article <5cdad214-7f52-45a0-8e46-a15a5f45d...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
>> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 4, 2:51 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> >> In article <4eer141o6umngf02gmmneo7tt886aeo...@4ax.com>,
>> >> Aeek <aeeee...@tpg.com.au> writes:> On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
>> >> > <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
>> >> >>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
>> >> >>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
>> >> >>marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>>
>> >> > I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
>>
>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> >> That's the main thing. <shrug> Who can complain?
>> >> Nothing beats a bike that's a joy to ride, as well
>> >> as a pleasure to just ~have~.
>>
>> >> Which reminds me: I've gotta get around to doing
>> >> something about my heron-motif-edition Raleigh Twenty.
>> >> It's a beauty, but the stock chrome wheels are so
>> >> fubar'dly out of true. I dunno whether to keep 'em
>> >> (and the whole bike) stock & original, or stick more
>> >> practical alu-alloy rims on there. I'm still thinking
>> >> about it. Some decent steerer bearings wouldn't hurt
>> >> either, if I could replace the existing nylon bushings.
>> >> I've also thought about replacing the flexy front brake,
>> >> but that's part of what makes a Twenty a Twenty.
>>
>> > What makes a Twenty great is the frame and the rear hub, the rest is
>> > mainly junky.
>>
>> Steel handlebars have earned my respect.
>>
>> The only thing junky on my Twenty is
>> the fat-assed aftermarket saddle.
>>
>> The chainring with its fretworked herons
>> in the spokes is to die for. The pedals
>> are pretty with their relief herons in the
>> rubber. The paint is plum brown with gold
>> highlights here 'n there. The fenders are
>> sparkling chrome. If I obtained the stock
>> saddle, matching-coloured frame pump and a
>> S-A faceplate, it'd be like new out of the box.
>
> Lots of BMX/freestyle rims are chromed aluminum. One of those might
> be a better aesthetic choice for your Twenty than a polished or
> anodized aluminum rim.

Ooooooh, shiny! Thank you x a million! :-) :-)

The bike really does glisten & glow like wide-eyed
Claudette Colbert in her prime, and I just don't
have the heart to fade it with dull, matte finishes
and surfaces.

Now I know what to do. <subtle, machiavellian "heh">


Thanks a million + 1,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article <c3b1b751-ec4b-4696-9a8d-ee83637c3e4b@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> writes:
> On May 4, 7:15 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article <5cdad214-7f52-45a0-8e46-a15a5f45d...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
>> landotter <landot...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 4, 2:51 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> >> In article <4eer141o6umngf02gmmneo7tt886aeo...@4ax.com>,
>> >> Aeek <aeeee...@tpg.com.au> writes:> On Sat, 3 May 2008 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
>> >> > <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>Madone frames, like all CFRP frames, are made from charred
>> >> >>polyacrylonitrile resin-- that's plastic, by the way-- in a matrix of
>> >> >>epoxy resin. Which is, y'know, plastic. Plastic is the least
>> >> >>marketing-termish thing you could call them.
>>
>> >> > I love my 08 Madone 6.9, its an awesome race bike.
>>
>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> >> That's the main thing. <shrug> Who can complain?
>> >> Nothing beats a bike that's a joy to ride, as well
>> >> as a pleasure to just ~have~.
>>
>> >> Which reminds me: I've gotta get around to doing
>> >> something about my heron-motif-edition Raleigh Twenty.
>> >> It's a beauty, but the stock chrome wheels are so
>> >> fubar'dly out of true. I dunno whether to keep 'em
>> >> (and the whole bike) stock & original, or stick more
>> >> practical alu-alloy rims on there. I'm still thinking
>> >> about it. Some decent steerer bearings wouldn't hurt
>> >> either, if I could replace the existing nylon bushings.
>> >> I've also thought about replacing the flexy front brake,
>> >> but that's part of what makes a Twenty a Twenty.
>>
>> > What makes a Twenty great is the frame and the rear hub, the rest is
>> > mainly junky.
>>
>> Steel handlebars have earned my respect.
>>
>> The only thing junky on my Twenty is
>> the fat-assed aftermarket saddle.
>>
>> The chainring with its fretworked herons
>> in the spokes is to die for. The pedals
>> are pretty with their relief herons in the
>> rubber. The paint is plum brown with gold
>> highlights here 'n there. The fenders are
>> sparkling chrome. If I obtained the stock
>> saddle, matching-coloured frame pump and a
>> S-A faceplate, it'd be like new out of the box.
>
> Lots of BMX/freestyle rims are chromed aluminum. One of those might
> be a better aesthetic choice for your Twenty than a polished or
> anodized aluminum rim.

Ooooooh, shiny! Thank you x a million! :-) :-)

The bike really does glisten & glow like wide-eyed
Claudette Colbert in her prime, and I just don't
have the heart to fade it with dull, matte finishes
and surfaces.

Now I know what to do. <subtle, machiavellian "heh">


Thanks a million + 1,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[ZBicyclist]

Stephen Harding wrote:
>
> However, I am of the opinion a three frame size range would
> get most people properly adjusted on their bikes using the
> seatposts/stems/risers/saddle positions the bike came with.

The key word is "most" people.

[Stephen Harding]

ZBicyclist wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>>However, I am of the opinion a three frame size range would
>>get most people properly adjusted on their bikes using the
>>seatposts/stems/risers/saddle positions the bike came with.
>
> The key word is "most" people.

As I've said, there are always "outliers" in the person-to-bike
fit distribution.

Nonetheless, I find it difficult to believe that 2cm frame size
increments can't be mostly folded into the normal up/down
seatpost adjustment and forward/back saddle adjustment ranges
that come on any bike size.

Recently in my local paper, there was a story about some guy in
CA who builds custom bikes for high end buyers (mentioned several
prominent Silicon Valley types with big bucks). A basic one
speed bike might set you back $15K.

He only builds for people "he likes" and might change his mind
in selling you the bike if you visit his shop to see how progress
is going too many times! You get interviewed before becoming a
customer.

He of course gets custom fit measurements from his clients in
building the frame and made the claim that a mis-match of even
ONE MILLIMETER can cause physical damage to the rider. That's
how important proper fit was!

BS!

I'd bet there are fewer than a handful of people on the bike
riding planet (I'll throw in the bike riders of Alpha Gamma 5
as well) who have suffered physical damage to themselves due to
a 1 mm bike fit mismatch!

This guy is selling smug snootiness disguised as bicycle building
elegance and performance to make his money IMHO.

I think Mark Hickey got his bike sales model wrong. Instead of
selling a good Ti frame for reasonable price, he should have been
trying to sell outrageously priced frames along with as much aires
of arrogance and superiority as he could muster.


SMH

[SMS]

ZBicyclist wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>> However, I am of the opinion a three frame size range would
>> get most people properly adjusted on their bikes using the
>> seatposts/stems/risers/saddle positions the bike came with.
>
> The key word is "most" people.

Three sizes is not enough for "most," which I would take to mean > 95%.
When you go to five size (XS, S, M, L, XL), then you could get to "most."

XS 40-44 cm
S 45-49 cm
M 50-54 cm
L 55-59 cm
XL 60-64 cm

It's still a compromise though. You usually end up with a bicycle that
is slightly too small, then adjust it up, though most riders wouldn't
know that it wasn't an optimal fit. If you needed a 54 cm frame, and the
medium was really a 50 cm with seatpost and stem adjustments to get it
to 54 cm, that's too much of an adjustment. 2 cm wouldn't be a big deal.

When threadless headsets first came out, there was a tendency to always
cut the tubes to the shortest possible length. I think Delta liked it
because they sold so many of their funky extenders.

[Tom Sherman]

Stephen Harding wrote:
> [...]
> Recently in my local paper, there was a story about some guy in
> CA who builds custom bikes for high end buyers (mentioned several
> prominent Silicon Valley types with big bucks). A basic one
> speed bike might set you back $15K.
>
> He only builds for people "he likes" and might change his mind
> in selling you the bike if you visit his shop to see how progress
> is going too many times! You get interviewed before becoming a
> customer.
>
> He of course gets custom fit measurements from his clients in
> building the frame and made the claim that a mis-match of even
> ONE MILLIMETER can cause physical damage to the rider. That's
> how important proper fit was!
>
> BS!
>
> I'd bet there are fewer than a handful of people on the bike
> riding planet (I'll throw in the bike riders of Alpha Gamma 5
> as well) who have suffered physical damage to themselves due to
> a 1 mm bike fit mismatch!
>
> This guy is selling smug snootiness disguised as bicycle building
> elegance and performance to make his money IMHO.[...]

If the above reporting (by the referenced local paper) is correct, then
all this builder's customers are fools that are indeed being parted from
their money.

Here are reasonably priced custom geometry frames made in the US:
<http://www.gunnarbikes.com/custom.php>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[Brian Huntley]

On May 10, 7:56 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:

> The bike really does glisten & glow like wide-eyed
> Claudette Colbert in her prime,

You *are* John McCain, and I claim my $5.

[Brian Huntley]

On May 10, 7:56 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:

> The bike really does glisten & glow like wide-eyed
> Claudette Colbert in her prime,

You *are* John McCain, and I claim my $5.

[Tom Keats]

In article <4bdc0822-3dd7-4ba6-887d-73eaa4df27d7@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Brian Huntley <brian_huntley@hotmail.com> writes:
> On May 10, 7:56 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>> The bike really does glisten & glow like wide-eyed
>> Claudette Colbert in her prime,
>
> You *are* John McCain, and I claim my $5.

I assure you, I am certainly not John McCain.

I'm just a women-loving letcher.

Leave me alone, dammit!

I bet my Twenty is prettier than John McCain's.

5 bux is pretty cheap.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article <4bdc0822-3dd7-4ba6-887d-73eaa4df27d7@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Brian Huntley <brian_huntley@hotmail.com> writes:
> On May 10, 7:56 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>> The bike really does glisten & glow like wide-eyed
>> Claudette Colbert in her prime,
>
> You *are* John McCain, and I claim my $5.

I assure you, I am certainly not John McCain.

I'm just a women-loving letcher.

Leave me alone, dammit!

I bet my Twenty is prettier than John McCain's.

5 bux is pretty cheap.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca