Training Qs: intervals, blowing up, fat...

[Ryan Cousineau]

I have two goals right now:

-Lose a huge amount of weight
-up the wattage

I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).

So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:

-goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
composition makes me look like a climber*.

-I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
season is soon enough.

Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
go home for lunch).

Here's a typical training, er, plan:

-multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
get to the crit on time.
-yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
-ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.

The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?

I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
(as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
ho!)

I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
historically made me strong fast.

If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.

Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.

*will never happen.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Howard Kveck]

In article <25d5b580-1201-4a94-8727-93192de39b5e@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
> poor transitions.

Something similar could be said about one of our vendors at work: "They may not
know what they're doing but at least they're slow."

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Michael Press]

In article <36hn24l3uqjmi04ghc93am5fqlu0cugt2i@4ax.com>,
Nobody<nobody@nowhere.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 May 2008 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT),
> "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I was someplace over 250. I was allergic to looking at the scale at
> >that point, so I don't really know. Probably 260 or so. I'm 205 now.
> >If I were some kind of pro, I'd be 195.
> >
> >At our club time trial I averaged 28km/h when I was fat, now I am over
> >40km/h.
>
> OK, thanks. That's quite remarkable, depending on your age.
>
> When I retired (I got out early), I started riding and was only
> getting about 22km/h, over about 10 miles.
>
> 1.5 years later I hit a PB of 29.6 km/h, over a non-hilly 10 mi.
> course, out and back. Not racing, just pushing it. (still had to stop
> for traffic).
>
> After losing down to 185lbs, I don't really work on speed, but
> normally I ride a slightly hilly course at 25.7 km/h.
>
> I had no trouble hitting 40km/h, but could not sustain it. I haven't
> tried it lately, but doubt I'd be much faster than that, even with
> 40-50lbs lighter. Most of the time I see 19 and 20mph on my
> speedometer, but due to turning around, navigating and stopping for
> traffic, it ends up significantly less.
>
> Maybe it's motivation? Now that I'm at goal, I'm not 'driven' as I
> was.
>
> Maybe my progressive resistance in hill climbing has been reduced,
> dragging less lbs.
>
> Or maybe it's that I'm 5 years older. Dunno. But overall, I feel I was
> faster two years ago. :(

Thanks. What is `slightly hilly'?
For me a typical two hour ride has 2 3 km climbs,
and the remainder is all rolling stuff.

--
Michael Press

[Nobody]

On Thu, 15 May 2008 04:36:43 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>I think intensity helps bump up the max capacity, and moderate solo
>rides helps move your threshold up relative to the total capacity.
>That is of course an oversimplification of a huge sort.
>
>>
>> Hct 45+ so no Iron def.
>
>That's good.
>
>>
>> Thanks for the nice comments. Appreciated.
>
>If you want to get faster, add some fast group rides where you have to
>struggle to keep up.

When I see other riders, I arrange to give them about 20-30 seconds
headstart, then chase them down. They don't know they're playing; I'm
careful not to interfere.

On one hill, last one before home, I usually get 12mph. A couple
months ago, noticed someone up ahead on the approach and came up
beside them, said hi, offered to pull up the hill, they could draft.

Well, I got 2/3 up the hill and took a quick look down. 16.5mph. It
was very easy. No idea how, but one thing I've been working on is to
accelerate on the approach, not approach timidly, conserving energy.

Prior to that I'd 'attack the hill', which I think, was starting the
acceleration too late. Not sure if others do this; seems to work for
me.

Like to do some fast(er) group rides, but no opportunity.

Other thing I do is pick a course just over my head, ability-wise,
then ride that. Generally I do it on a week where I'm able to peak.

Thanks again for the detailed reply. Good riding to you.

[Bill C]

On May 16, 7:19*am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> But it came in a fancy bottle with a fancy label, and had a full page
> in Musclemag so it must be worth it!! Not to generalize, but I'm gonna
> anyway, the average cyclist is a whole lot smarter/better educated
> than 90% of the gym rats out there. Supplements are the gym rats
> version of superlight un-obtainium. They lose all sense in the face of
> hype, and have to have them.
>
> Bill C


Prices on this stuff seem to have stayed the same or gone down.
Google is being really cranky this morning but if you go to:
supplementwarehouse.com
and search for "ripped fuel", or go to the "Fat Burners" category you
get a quick picture.
I'm pretty amazed that these prices seem to be directly comparable to
what they were 15/20 years ago.
Bill C

[Bill C]

On May 15, 10:06*am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 14, 11:40*pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
> > lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
> > the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. *I do think
> > losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
> > I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
> > but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
> > that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
> > Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
> > any beer.
>
> > Ben
> > I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
> > poor transitions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ben I agree pretty generally. About the only weight training that I'd
> really suggest for active cyclists who are doing a balanced training
> routine would be stuff for the back, especially the lower back, and
> not any real heavy stuff either. > *Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Meant to include, and abs. I'm totally in favor of "core" training for
anyone.
Bill C

[Michael Press]

In article
<2f52c1d3-bf9b-45f6-8e8b-bdd787bc4761@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote:

> On May 16, 1:29*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <2b734850-7ff8-4e59-afe3-7c2aa7edb...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > *Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On May 15, 4:44*am, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:34:45 -0700 (PDT), Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > >On May 13, 4:50*pm, "Off The Back" <marco_fenne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >I don't know that you can train a sprint much. What's your experience
> > > > >with that?
> >
> > > > >It's also interesting that we tend to analyze racing with models from
> > > > >our profession. For me it's:
> >
> > > > >Aerobic power = Battery
> > > > >Endurance = Battery life
> > > > >Anaerobic power = Capacitor
> > > > >Recovery = RC time constant
> >
> > > > >It works for me, but not for anyone else I've met. Many don't even
> > > > >recognize that there are that many variables.
> >
> > > > >Bret
> >
> > > > Interesting: From Wiki:
> > > > "In an RC circuit, the value of the time constant (in seconds) is
> > > > equal to the product of the circuit resistance (in ohms) and the
> > > > circuit capacitance (in farads), i.e. ? = R × C. It is the time
> > > > required to charge the capacitor, through the resistor, to 63.2 (? 63)
> > > > percent of full charge"
> >
> > > > So what is 'resistance' to you? Motivation?
> > > > Circuit Capacitance=Anaerobic power?
> >
> > > > Cool analogy.
> >
> > > Maybe a sloppy analogy. The RC charging *cycle is non-linear because
> > > the charging current drops as the capacitor charges due to the
> > > transition in voltage drops. This is like trying to pump up a tire to
> > > 100 psi with a compressor whose tank is at 100 psi. Initial air flow
> > > will be high but will fall to zero as you approach 100 psi.
> >
> > > I'm not sure that muscle recover has a similar mechanism. Here's what
> > > I found about muscle recovery from anaerobic exercise which seems to
> > > involve two separate phases:
> >
> > > "It is suggested that the initial fast phase of CP resynthesis is
> > > limited by the availability of oxygen whereas the subsequent slow
> > > phase is limited by the hydrogen ion transport out from the muscle."
> >
> > > The oxygen dependent phase is presumably linear since oxygen is
> > > constantly supplied. I don't know about the hydrogen ion dependent
> > > phase. I'll stop pretending I know anything about biology here.
> >
> > > Resynthesis of creatine phosphate in human muscle after exercise :
> > >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/43580
> >
> > In the cell energy delivered for use comes from ATP
> > hydrolysis. This produces H+. H+ diffuse into the
> > mitochondria and is metabolized. When the mitochondria
> > are working at capacity excess H+ must be buffered then
> > physically removed from the cell.
> >
> > A good survey article is
> >
> > Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis.
> > Robert A. Robergs, Farzenah Ghiasvand, and Daryl Parker
> >
> > <http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/short/287/3/R502>
>
> If I read this correctly the CP resynthesis should speed up over time
> during recovery as the H+ created during exercise is cleared? If so,
> then there is no negative feedback to CP resynthesis and my analogy is
> bad.

I do not know. The authors do not say much about
creatine phosphate.

"The cellular store of creatine phosphate
provides a near immediate metabolic system to produce ATP
during the onset and initial seconds of muscle contraction.
Creatine phosphate is also believed to be important for the
general transfer of phosphate groups from the mitochondria
throughout the cytosol, and as such could also be important for
all metabolic states of skeletal muscle cells. "

"On the basis of the biochemistry presented thus far, Fig. 14
indicates the shift in proton þux as exercise progresses from
steady state to nonsteady state. Central to the cellular proton
balance is the hydrolysis of ATP required to fuel cell work,
such as muscle contraction. This is clearly the main source of
proton release in contracting skeletal muscle, and when the
NADH and protons from cytosolic reactions are produced at
rates in excess of mitochondrial capacity, cytosolic redox is
aided by lactate production, which essentially accounts for the
proton release from glycolysis. However, as the rate of ATP
hydrolysis exceeds all other reactions, the rate of proton release
eventually exceeds metabolic proton buffering by lactate pro-
duction and creatine phosphate breakdown, as well as proton
buffering by Pi, amino acids, and proteins. In addition, once the
maximal capacity of lactate/proton removal from the cell is
exceeded, proton accumulation (decreasing cellular pH) re-
sults. Also, note that Fig. 14B clearly shows that the origin of
the accumulating intramuscular Pi is ATP hydrolysis, not
creatine phosphate breakdown, which is still mistakenly inter-
preted by many physiologists (59)."

The abstract of the Sahlin K, Harris RC, Hultman E
article suggests that mitochondria respiration is
responsible for CP re-synthesis.

I gather that excess H+ from anaerobic effort is only cleared
by transport out of the cell.

--
Michael Press

[Paul G.]

On May 15, 5:07 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 5:55 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <0af18a9d-6235-4223-8f2e-65d207d0a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 13, 9:09 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
>
> > > > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > > > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
>
> > > I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. But
> > > scratch that. It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
>
> > That really is The **** That Will Kill You.
>
> Death does cause weight loss. It is 50-50 whether that is good or
> bad. Values are subjective.
>
> > Think I'll stick to wine,
>
> I thought you wanted to lose weight?
>
> A regimen of crystal meth and lucky strikes will fix you up in a
> hurry.

I can't vouch for the lucky strikes, but meth has been tried.... he
said, sipping his glass of wine.

http://www.unc.edu/~hymas/images/simpson_collapse.jpg
http://www.unc.edu/~hymas/images/tom_simpson.jpg
-Paul

[Bill C]

On May 16, 12:43*am, Kyle Legate <lega...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > On May 14, 12:38 am, Kyle Legate <lega...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Bill C wrote:
> >>> *the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
> >>> activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
> >> You forgot to mention the ECA stack.
>
> > Never bothered with that stuff. I watched people fork out big dollars
> > for the stuff because it was in the magazines and get nowhere.
>
> If you're forking out big dollars for ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin,
> you need to change pharmacies.

But it came in a fancy bottle with a fancy label, and had a full page
in Musclemag so it must be worth it!! Not to generalize, but I'm gonna
anyway, the average cyclist is a whole lot smarter/better educated
than 90% of the gym rats out there. Supplements are the gym rats
version of superlight un-obtainium. They lose all sense in the face of
hype, and have to have them.

Bill C

[Howard Kveck]

In article <rubrum-FA52AC.12004116052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:

> In article <YOURhoward-543EAF.23254915052008@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <rubrum-DDE2EB.10471915052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
> > Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:

> > > I deliberately did not say `portion control'.
> > > Control takes too much attention, attention best used otherwise.
> > > The idea is to take a moment and look at the portion you intend to eat.
> >
> > The portion you intend to eat, the portion you need to eat and the
> > portion you want to eat may all be different. Sometimes, one's will power ("the
> > portion you need to eat") is poor and the food is good. You can imagine the
> > result there.
>
> There are a million problems. I recommend taking it easy.
> Put food on the plate. Sit down. Look at it. Now shut up and eat.

That's pretty much the standard procedure here, although I add "smell it" to the
"look at it" section.

"I got 99 problems and a meal ain't one."

Or

I like food, food tastes good!
I like food, food tastes good!
Juicy burgers, greasy fries
Turkey legs and raw fish eyes!
Teenage girls, with ketchup too!
Get outta my way or I'll eat you!
I like food, food tastes good!
I like food, food tastes good!
Let's turn dining back into eating!!!

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Michael Press]

In article
<2b734850-7ff8-4e59-afe3-7c2aa7edb10b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote:

> On May 15, 4:44*am, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:34:45 -0700 (PDT), Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >On May 13, 4:50*pm, "Off The Back" <marco_fenne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >I don't know that you can train a sprint much. What's your experience
> > >with that?
> >
> > >It's also interesting that we tend to analyze racing with models from
> > >our profession. For me it's:
> >
> > >Aerobic power = Battery
> > >Endurance = Battery life
> > >Anaerobic power = Capacitor
> > >Recovery = RC time constant
> >
> > >It works for me, but not for anyone else I've met. Many don't even
> > >recognize that there are that many variables.
> >
> > >Bret
> >
> > Interesting: From Wiki:
> > "In an RC circuit, the value of the time constant (in seconds) is
> > equal to the product of the circuit resistance (in ohms) and the
> > circuit capacitance (in farads), i.e. ? = R × C. It is the time
> > required to charge the capacitor, through the resistor, to 63.2 (? 63)
> > percent of full charge"
> >
> > So what is 'resistance' to you? Motivation?
> > Circuit Capacitance=Anaerobic power?
> >
> > Cool analogy.
>
> Maybe a sloppy analogy. The RC charging cycle is non-linear because
> the charging current drops as the capacitor charges due to the
> transition in voltage drops. This is like trying to pump up a tire to
> 100 psi with a compressor whose tank is at 100 psi. Initial air flow
> will be high but will fall to zero as you approach 100 psi.
>
> I'm not sure that muscle recover has a similar mechanism. Here's what
> I found about muscle recovery from anaerobic exercise which seems to
> involve two separate phases:
>
> "It is suggested that the initial fast phase of CP resynthesis is
> limited by the availability of oxygen whereas the subsequent slow
> phase is limited by the hydrogen ion transport out from the muscle."
>
> The oxygen dependent phase is presumably linear since oxygen is
> constantly supplied. I don't know about the hydrogen ion dependent
> phase. I'll stop pretending I know anything about biology here.
>
> Resynthesis of creatine phosphate in human muscle after exercise :
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/43580

In the cell energy delivered for use comes from ATP
hydrolysis. This produces H+. H+ diffuse into the
mitochondria and is metabolized. When the mitochondria
are working at capacity excess H+ must be buffered then
physically removed from the cell.

A good survey article is

Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis.
Robert A. Robergs, Farzenah Ghiasvand, and Daryl Parker

<http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/short/287/3/R502>

--
Michael Press

[A R:nen]

Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> writes:

> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

Doesn't sprint training actually help CX? I mean, you do have to get
back up to speed after each dismount/slow section and each one of
those accelerations is essentially like a small sprint (though you
don't want to go all out any further than what you can manage to
recover from in the time before the next dismount).

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On May 13, 5:07*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
>
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
> help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
> composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> season is soon enough.
>
> Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
> drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
> my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
> go home for lunch).
>
> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)
>
> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.
>
> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.
>
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> *will never happen.
>

I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
power. We are talking fat, not muscle.

As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
strengths to the favor of others.

In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
(unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
that other rubbish.

The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."

Joseph

[Amit Ghosh]

On May 12, 11:07 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage

dumbass,

liposuction and blood transfusion.

[William Asher]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
<snip>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.

Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence.

--
Bill Asher

[Steve Freides]

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
>
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I
> ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding
> track.
>
> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If
> they
> help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my
> body
> composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> season is soon enough.
>
> Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer
> won't
> drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage
> on
> my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day:
> I
> go home for lunch).
>
> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple
> sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow
> to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then
> keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more
> favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine
> these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally
> counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)
>
> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.
>
> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.
>
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX
> season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power
> or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races,
> period.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> *will never happen.

Losing weight is, for most people, 90% about diet. It sounds like
you're getting plenty of exercise already. Most people find some sort
of resistance training (read: lifting weights) helps. The conventional
wisdom about dieting is, IMHO, severely lacking these days. Google
"Warrior Diet" and "Intermittent Fasting" to see what I have found works
for me, my wife, and lots of other folks, too. I have always been
basically thin and I eat this way because I prefer it, not because I
have to for reasons of body composition.

In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
to continuing to ride your bike.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

[Bret]

On May 12, 9:07*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
help more.

As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.

> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).

The training above is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
specialists do very well at CX.

For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
this:

7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
12:00pm - noon ride
2:00pm - moderate lunch
8:00pm - moderate dinner

The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.

I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
over. There is no serious part any more.

Bret

[Off The Back]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage

The good news is that by doing the former the right way, you will
undoubtedly also get the latter for free.

And by the right way, I simply mean keep a good diet. "Eat food, not too
much, mostly plants" -- Ben Franlin. (Don't forget that hops are plants!)
And with your additional riding, you'll run a small calorie deficit, so that
by CX season you'll have shed most of that extra weight.

> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

More good news... training your sprint is fast and easy (relative to upping
your aerobic power or anaerobic capacity). Despite what Robert says, do one
sprint work-out a week with 10-15 full-out bursts of 10-15 seconds each with
adequate recovery in-between. Takes less than an hour. As long as you still
have at least 5-10 hours a week for your high-aerobic-zone work, then work
on your sprint also, if for no other reason than it will be fun when you go
around Burnaby really fast.

> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?

I don't know what you mean by fairly long, but as Ben Franklin also once
said, "Fat burns best in a hot flame", meaning you actually burn more fat at
higher power output. You'll have to experiement to find your own... ,err,
sweet spot, where you do the most work (in the physics sense) for your
entire training session, ...if the goal is to burn fat.

> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)

If you have limited time, 25 kph rides are indeed junk, unless you need them
for recovery. Koach K is korrect that you need easy recovery rides, but only
after you've really taxed yourself with your hard rides.

> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.

Personally, I wouldn't do those until your threshold W/kg has started to
level off. If you do these 60-90 sec intervals all-out, they can really
compromise your training for several days afterward. On the other hand, if
you actually enjoy these kind of intervals, then you either aren't doing
them hard enough, or you are sick in the head.

> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous?

No.

> Am I sabotaging the CX season with my devotion to intervals,
> when I should just work on hour-power or something?

No. Whether you do those 60-90 second intervals, or aerobic-threshold work
(e.g., sweet-spot training), you will improve substantially.

> Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless?

Unless you are training your sprint to beat Andrew Randell or Zach Bell,
then it shouldn't consume much of your time or energy, so it won't interfere
with CX.

> I don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

....which is precisely why improving your threshold W/kg will get you to the
front of those races.

BTW, I'm NOT saying that you can't fine-tune your fitness toward one kind of
event versus another; you can, as I suggested here:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/designing-bike-racer.html

....but as I wrote in the follow-up, until you've dropped the extra weight,
it doesn't really matter:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/continuing-discussion.html
...which I got a lot of flack for, and some emails both nasty and
supportive, the best comment was from Ben Franklin: "Bike racing is not
healthy. But if you want to go fast, here's what to do."

Good luck Ryan!

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

[Michael Press]

In article
<rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.

Losing 25 pounds in the time frame
and with the physical effort you outline
is a huge jolt to the body. You should
find out everything you can about large
weight loss, including how to maintain.
Have you seriously considered a lifelong
commitment to maintaining some particular
weight range? Or are you at risk to blimp
up, dissipating the results of your effort?

A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
concentrating on portion size. I recommend
the no-guilt diet.

--
Michael Press

[A R:nen]

Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> writes:

> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

Doesn't sprint training actually help CX? I mean, you do have to get
back up to speed after each dismount/slow section and each one of
those accelerations is essentially like a small sprint (though you
don't want to go all out any further than what you can manage to
recover from in the time before the next dismount).

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On May 13, 5:07*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
>
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
> help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
> composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> season is soon enough.
>
> Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
> drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
> my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
> go home for lunch).
>
> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)
>
> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.
>
> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.
>
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> *will never happen.
>

I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
power. We are talking fat, not muscle.

As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
strengths to the favor of others.

In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
(unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
that other rubbish.

The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."

Joseph

[Amit Ghosh]

On May 12, 11:07 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage

dumbass,

liposuction and blood transfusion.

[William Asher]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
<snip>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.

Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence.

--
Bill Asher

[Steve Freides]

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
>
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I
> ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding
> track.
>
> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If
> they
> help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my
> body
> composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> season is soon enough.
>
> Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer
> won't
> drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage
> on
> my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day:
> I
> go home for lunch).
>
> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple
> sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow
> to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then
> keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more
> favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine
> these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally
> counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)
>
> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.
>
> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.
>
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX
> season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power
> or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races,
> period.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> *will never happen.

Losing weight is, for most people, 90% about diet. It sounds like
you're getting plenty of exercise already. Most people find some sort
of resistance training (read: lifting weights) helps. The conventional
wisdom about dieting is, IMHO, severely lacking these days. Google
"Warrior Diet" and "Intermittent Fasting" to see what I have found works
for me, my wife, and lots of other folks, too. I have always been
basically thin and I eat this way because I prefer it, not because I
have to for reasons of body composition.

In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
to continuing to ride your bike.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

[Bret]

On May 12, 9:07*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
help more.

As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.

> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).

The training above is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
specialists do very well at CX.

For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
this:

7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
12:00pm - noon ride
2:00pm - moderate lunch
8:00pm - moderate dinner

The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.

I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
over. There is no serious part any more.

Bret

[Off The Back]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage

The good news is that by doing the former the right way, you will
undoubtedly also get the latter for free.

And by the right way, I simply mean keep a good diet. "Eat food, not too
much, mostly plants" -- Ben Franlin. (Don't forget that hops are plants!)
And with your additional riding, you'll run a small calorie deficit, so that
by CX season you'll have shed most of that extra weight.

> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

More good news... training your sprint is fast and easy (relative to upping
your aerobic power or anaerobic capacity). Despite what Robert says, do one
sprint work-out a week with 10-15 full-out bursts of 10-15 seconds each with
adequate recovery in-between. Takes less than an hour. As long as you still
have at least 5-10 hours a week for your high-aerobic-zone work, then work
on your sprint also, if for no other reason than it will be fun when you go
around Burnaby really fast.

> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?

I don't know what you mean by fairly long, but as Ben Franklin also once
said, "Fat burns best in a hot flame", meaning you actually burn more fat at
higher power output. You'll have to experiement to find your own... ,err,
sweet spot, where you do the most work (in the physics sense) for your
entire training session, ...if the goal is to burn fat.

> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)

If you have limited time, 25 kph rides are indeed junk, unless you need them
for recovery. Koach K is korrect that you need easy recovery rides, but only
after you've really taxed yourself with your hard rides.

> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.

Personally, I wouldn't do those until your threshold W/kg has started to
level off. If you do these 60-90 sec intervals all-out, they can really
compromise your training for several days afterward. On the other hand, if
you actually enjoy these kind of intervals, then you either aren't doing
them hard enough, or you are sick in the head.

> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous?

No.

> Am I sabotaging the CX season with my devotion to intervals,
> when I should just work on hour-power or something?

No. Whether you do those 60-90 second intervals, or aerobic-threshold work
(e.g., sweet-spot training), you will improve substantially.

> Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless?

Unless you are training your sprint to beat Andrew Randell or Zach Bell,
then it shouldn't consume much of your time or energy, so it won't interfere
with CX.

> I don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

....which is precisely why improving your threshold W/kg will get you to the
front of those races.

BTW, I'm NOT saying that you can't fine-tune your fitness toward one kind of
event versus another; you can, as I suggested here:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/designing-bike-racer.html

....but as I wrote in the follow-up, until you've dropped the extra weight,
it doesn't really matter:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/continuing-discussion.html
...which I got a lot of flack for, and some emails both nasty and
supportive, the best comment was from Ben Franklin: "Bike racing is not
healthy. But if you want to go fast, here's what to do."

Good luck Ryan!

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

[Michael Press]

In article
<rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.

Losing 25 pounds in the time frame
and with the physical effort you outline
is a huge jolt to the body. You should
find out everything you can about large
weight loss, including how to maintain.
Have you seriously considered a lifelong
commitment to maintaining some particular
weight range? Or are you at risk to blimp
up, dissipating the results of your effort?

A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
concentrating on portion size. I recommend
the no-guilt diet.

--
Michael Press

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <ysrxfxsmfvlo.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>,
oronkain@ling.helsinki.fi (A R:nen) wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> > with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> > something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> > don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> > CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
>
> Doesn't sprint training actually help CX? I mean, you do have to get
> back up to speed after each dismount/slow section and each one of
> those accelerations is essentially like a small sprint (though you
> don't want to go all out any further than what you can manage to
> recover from in the time before the next dismount).

Interesting theory, but I suspect not. The ideal in CX is probably
something very close to constant power, and the accelerations after a
well-done remount (at least for me) are not huge: you're supposed to run
fast while off the bike so you don't have to accelerate to get back on.
Wattage probably goes up while running, but in most cases the runs are
brief. Around here, it's not at all unusual to have barrier sections
that last 1-3 seconds, and typically there's one longer run-up, but I
can't think of any that were longer than 15s or so.

My impression of the running sections in CX is that they usually have
more to do with making smooth transitions off and on the bike.

Running? Transitions! Aaah! That's triathlete talk!

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <ysrxfxsmfvlo.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>,
oronkain@ling.helsinki.fi (A R:nen) wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> > with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> > something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> > don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> > CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
>
> Doesn't sprint training actually help CX? I mean, you do have to get
> back up to speed after each dismount/slow section and each one of
> those accelerations is essentially like a small sprint (though you
> don't want to go all out any further than what you can manage to
> recover from in the time before the next dismount).

Interesting theory, but I suspect not. The ideal in CX is probably
something very close to constant power, and the accelerations after a
well-done remount (at least for me) are not huge: you're supposed to run
fast while off the bike so you don't have to accelerate to get back on.
Wattage probably goes up while running, but in most cases the runs are
brief. Around here, it's not at all unusual to have barrier sections
that last 1-3 seconds, and typically there's one longer run-up, but I
can't think of any that were longer than 15s or so.

My impression of the running sections in CX is that they usually have
more to do with making smooth transitions off and on the bike.

Running? Transitions! Aaah! That's triathlete talk!

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Bill C]

On May 13, 6:03*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 5:07*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have two goals right now:
>
> > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > -up the wattage
>
> > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track..
>
> > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> > -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
> > help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
> > composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> > -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> > whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> > shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> > season is soon enough.
>
> > Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
> > drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> > training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
> > my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
> > go home for lunch).
>
> > Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> > -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> > Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> > get to the crit on time.
> > -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> > riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> > -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> > drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> > The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> > enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> > activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> > I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> > riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> > ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> > (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> > ho!)
>
> > I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> > 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> > historically made me strong fast.
>
> > If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> > maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> > in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> > experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.
>
> > Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> > with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> > something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> > don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> > CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period..
>
> > Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> > *will never happen.
>
> I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
> matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
> will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
> strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
> strengths to the favor of others.
>
> In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
> ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
> (unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
> matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
> that other rubbish.
>
> The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
> make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
> faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
> you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
> whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
>
> Joseph- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
the metabolism up, and fat burning.
Something like a 1-2 hour ride in the AM before breakfast at about
75%, breakfast, snack, circuit type workout w/no rest between sets and
exercises, lighter weights, more reps, keep moving!!, lunch, afternoon
ride, about same as the morning ride, dinner, late mostly protein
snack about an hour before bed, should be well under 20grams protein,
and minimal carbs.
Basically the day in this cycle goes, high carb/low protein in the
AM to the opposite before bed.
the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
Throwing in some sprints, and occasional LT/anaerobic work shouldn't
hurt at all and would probably help since the body is SO good at
adaptation to a routine. You've got to keep changing things up for
consistant gains. Cycle the amount of calories too around the target
weight/projected rate of loss, calculated figure. Give yourself a day
or two a week/10 days that's actually a little higher than the
baseline to help keep the metabolism up too. Anecdote says that L-
Carnitine is the standard supplement suggested, and commonly used to
aid in this. My results weren't conclusive, but it wasn't spendy, and
didn't hurt.
You might want to talk with a nutritionist/trainer who's current too.
If you do make sure they are certified. Usually an eval, and basic
plan isn't too expensive, and the objective set of eyes can really
make a difference. Think of how many times we've all looked at
something, over and over, and yet never saw it/couldn't find it, until
"DOH!" someone else pointed it out.
Bill C

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:03:37 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
>power. We are talking fat, not muscle.

Gaining even a little weight can cause a significant speed drop.
Losing weight may not cause noticeable improvement in speed in the
casual rider who is not genetically gifted or using enhancing
substances.

Variety of factors apply. Some direct, some indirect, others seem
opposite of expectations, some factors confound attempts to track
improvements. (many variables, variable influence of those factors,
individual variation).

Best suggestion? Try to eliminate variables when testing, be sure and
track things (spreadsheets?). Don't lose motivation, keep trying.
Beware regaining weight - maintenance is more challenging than losing.

2 cents.

[Bill C]

On May 13, 6:03*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 5:07*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have two goals right now:
>
> > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > -up the wattage
>
> > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track..
>
> > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> > -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
> > help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
> > composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> > -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> > whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> > shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> > season is soon enough.
>
> > Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
> > drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> > training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
> > my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
> > go home for lunch).
>
> > Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> > -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> > Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> > get to the crit on time.
> > -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> > riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> > -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> > drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> > The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> > enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> > activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> > I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> > riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> > ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> > (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> > ho!)
>
> > I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> > 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> > historically made me strong fast.
>
> > If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> > maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> > in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> > experimenting with The **** That Will Kill Them.
>
> > Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> > with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> > something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> > don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> > CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period..
>
> > Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> > *will never happen.
>
> I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
> matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
> will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
> strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
> strengths to the favor of others.
>
> In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
> ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
> (unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
> matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
> that other rubbish.
>
> The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
> make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
> faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
> you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
> whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
>
> Joseph- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
the metabolism up, and fat burning.
Something like a 1-2 hour ride in the AM before breakfast at about
75%, breakfast, snack, circuit type workout w/no rest between sets and
exercises, lighter weights, more reps, keep moving!!, lunch, afternoon
ride, about same as the morning ride, dinner, late mostly protein
snack about an hour before bed, should be well under 20grams protein,
and minimal carbs.
Basically the day in this cycle goes, high carb/low protein in the
AM to the opposite before bed.
the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
Throwing in some sprints, and occasional LT/anaerobic work shouldn't
hurt at all and would probably help since the body is SO good at
adaptation to a routine. You've got to keep changing things up for
consistant gains. Cycle the amount of calories too around the target
weight/projected rate of loss, calculated figure. Give yourself a day
or two a week/10 days that's actually a little higher than the
baseline to help keep the metabolism up too. Anecdote says that L-
Carnitine is the standard supplement suggested, and commonly used to
aid in this. My results weren't conclusive, but it wasn't spendy, and
didn't hurt.
You might want to talk with a nutritionist/trainer who's current too.
If you do make sure they are certified. Usually an eval, and basic
plan isn't too expensive, and the objective set of eyes can really
make a difference. Think of how many times we've all looked at
something, over and over, and yet never saw it/couldn't find it, until
"DOH!" someone else pointed it out.
Bill C

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:03:37 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
>power. We are talking fat, not muscle.

Gaining even a little weight can cause a significant speed drop.
Losing weight may not cause noticeable improvement in speed in the
casual rider who is not genetically gifted or using enhancing
substances.

Variety of factors apply. Some direct, some indirect, others seem
opposite of expectations, some factors confound attempts to track
improvements. (many variables, variable influence of those factors,
individual variation).

Best suggestion? Try to eliminate variables when testing, be sure and
track things (spreadsheets?). Don't lose motivation, keep trying.
Beware regaining weight - maintenance is more challenging than losing.

2 cents.

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
>the metabolism up, and fat burning.

How much did you lose, over what period of time?

What was your speed pre and post loss?

Just curious.

Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
genetically superior, or on PEDs.

[Kyle Legate]

Bill C wrote:

> the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
> activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
>

You forgot to mention the ECA stack.

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On May 13, 6:00 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 13, 6:03 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 13, 5:07 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I have two goals right now:
>
> > > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > > -up the wattage
>
> > > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> > > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> > power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> > As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
> > matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
> > will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
> > strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
> > strengths to the favor of others.
>
> > In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
> > ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
> > (unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
> > matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
> > that other rubbish.
>
> > The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
> > make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
> > faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
> > you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
> > whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
>
> Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
> going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
> bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
> you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
> losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
> looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
> amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
> muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
> contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
> cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> the metabolism up, and fat burning.

If all you're interested in doing is bike racing, not any
other stuff (lifting, or other exercise that requires a lot
of muscle, or being Nothstein, or physically demanding
jobs), you don't need to worry much about losing the muscle.
Bike racers don't really need that much muscle mass.
Even road sprinters can be pretty small.

Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. I do think
losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
any beer.

In terms of training for specific goals, like CX, then
the type of riding starts to matter and "ride lots" isn't
specific enough. That is, five hour rides will help take
the fat off, but beyond some base level, they won't help
with 30-40 min CX races as much as shorter more
intense efforts would. Assuming limited training time
and volume, as for most of us Masters Fatties.

Although most CX races at the M.F. B level won't be
sprinting contests, it is more subtle than just a 30 min
TT, because in a CX course there tend to be hard parts
and (very brief) recovery opportunities. So the ability
to surge (not exactly the same as sprinting) and recover
is useful. Surging and smooth transitions are what let
you pass people.

Ben
I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
poor transitions.

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
>the metabolism up, and fat burning.

How much did you lose, over what period of time?

What was your speed pre and post loss?

Just curious.

Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
genetically superior, or on PEDs.

[Kyle Legate]

Bill C wrote:

> the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
> activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
>

You forgot to mention the ECA stack.

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On May 13, 6:00 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 13, 6:03 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 13, 5:07 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I have two goals right now:
>
> > > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > > -up the wattage
>
> > > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> > > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> > power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> > As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
> > matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
> > will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
> > strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
> > strengths to the favor of others.
>
> > In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
> > ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
> > (unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
> > matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
> > that other rubbish.
>
> > The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
> > make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
> > faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
> > you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
> > whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
>
> Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
> going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
> bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
> you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
> losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
> looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
> amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
> muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
> contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
> cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> the metabolism up, and fat burning.

If all you're interested in doing is bike racing, not any
other stuff (lifting, or other exercise that requires a lot
of muscle, or being Nothstein, or physically demanding
jobs), you don't need to worry much about losing the muscle.
Bike racers don't really need that much muscle mass.
Even road sprinters can be pretty small.

Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. I do think
losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
any beer.

In terms of training for specific goals, like CX, then
the type of riding starts to matter and "ride lots" isn't
specific enough. That is, five hour rides will help take
the fat off, but beyond some base level, they won't help
with 30-40 min CX races as much as shorter more
intense efforts would. Assuming limited training time
and volume, as for most of us Masters Fatties.

Although most CX races at the M.F. B level won't be
sprinting contests, it is more subtle than just a 30 min
TT, because in a CX course there tend to be hard parts
and (very brief) recovery opportunities. So the ability
to surge (not exactly the same as sprinting) and recover
is useful. Surging and smooth transitions are what let
you pass people.

Ben
I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
poor transitions.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On May 13, 3:56*pm, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:03:37 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> >power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> Gaining even a little weight can cause a significant speed drop.
> Losing weight may not cause noticeable improvement in speed in the
> casual rider who is not genetically gifted or using enhancing
> substances.
>
> Variety of factors apply. Some direct, some indirect, others seem
> opposite of expectations, some factors confound attempts to track
> improvements. (many variables, variable influence of those factors,
> individual variation).
>
> Best suggestion? Try to eliminate variables when testing, be sure and
> track things (spreadsheets?). Don't lose motivation, keep trying.
> Beware regaining weight - maintenance is more challenging than losing.
>
> 2 cents.

25lbs of flab gone makes a HUGE difference.

Someone (like a bodybuilder) who has excess muscle mass may find it
hard to maintain that mass while losing small amounts of fat, but a
fatso with a 25lbs spare tire isn't going to have a hard time of it.
I'm a fan of (relatively) high protein diets.

I lost 50-60lbs riding, and I am WAY stronger than I was then. Not to
mention way faster.

Joseph

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On May 13, 3:56*pm, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:03:37 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> >power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> Gaining even a little weight can cause a significant speed drop.
> Losing weight may not cause noticeable improvement in speed in the
> casual rider who is not genetically gifted or using enhancing
> substances.
>
> Variety of factors apply. Some direct, some indirect, others seem
> opposite of expectations, some factors confound attempts to track
> improvements. (many variables, variable influence of those factors,
> individual variation).
>
> Best suggestion? Try to eliminate variables when testing, be sure and
> track things (spreadsheets?). Don't lose motivation, keep trying.
> Beware regaining weight - maintenance is more challenging than losing.
>
> 2 cents.

25lbs of flab gone makes a HUGE difference.

Someone (like a bodybuilder) who has excess muscle mass may find it
hard to maintain that mass while losing small amounts of fat, but a
fatso with a 25lbs spare tire isn't going to have a hard time of it.
I'm a fan of (relatively) high protein diets.

I lost 50-60lbs riding, and I am WAY stronger than I was then. Not to
mention way faster.

Joseph

[Bill C]

On May 13, 10:16*am, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> >the metabolism up, and fat burning.
>
> How much did you lose, over what period of time?
>
> What was your speed pre and post loss?
>
> Just curious.
>
> Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
> genetically superior, or on PEDs.

I wasn't racing bicycles then much, I was doing some duathlons, but
mostly power lifting/BB stuff. My weight bounced from 215/225
depending on how much I was focused on power during that large cycle.
heavier when going into a lifting competition of something like that,
down to 185 at around 5% bodyfat for BB which was about my best, and I
stayed in those ranges for about 10 years since I am not genetically
gifted. Coming down from 225 was probably 4 months, 215 about 3 when
trying to retain muscle. There was definitley a strength loss when
coming down, but power to weight wasn't a factor there. Neither was
extended aerobic power. I'd have to dig through my old training logs
for times on a, roughly, 45 minute TT I used to do regularly about
once every other week, which would be the only ride that day, just to
shake up the training and try and correlate it with the weight and
bodyfat levels which I have somewhere. Memory says I was slightly
faster going down to about 10lbs from the goal, then in that last
10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower, and
losing more in the gym too.
Unfortunately the last of this is close to 10 years ago now when the
injuries started catching up with me so the details aren't real sharp
without digging logs out.
I have managed to put on muscle while maintaining the bodyfat level
but it's a lot slower than taking some fat with the muscle gain.
keeping the muscle while losing the fat is, easily, the hardest thing
to do in BB. That's why there are so many drugs used out there,
especially, once your close, diuretics that help get rid of the excess
water "puffiness" from the steroids for razor sharp "cuts". At the
"pro" level, around show times, peoples electrolyte levels and body
chemistry is frequently, totally screwed up resulting in massive
cramping onstage, or in back, one top five type had to literally be
carried off stage and taken to the hospital, and trips to the
hospital, or EMT and then hospital from this crap.
I think most competitive cyclists, that have been racing for a few
years, are close enough, and knowledgeable enough that big gains are
going to be really hard to come by. As others have said a few percent
that is sustainable is a big gain.
From talking to good cycling trainers I don't think the small bf/
weight changes are going to be a big thing if Ryan is looking for more
power/sprinting. More a different structure to the training.
Bill C

[Bill C]

On May 13, 10:16*am, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> >the metabolism up, and fat burning.
>
> How much did you lose, over what period of time?
>
> What was your speed pre and post loss?
>
> Just curious.
>
> Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
> genetically superior, or on PEDs.

I wasn't racing bicycles then much, I was doing some duathlons, but
mostly power lifting/BB stuff. My weight bounced from 215/225
depending on how much I was focused on power during that large cycle.
heavier when going into a lifting competition of something like that,
down to 185 at around 5% bodyfat for BB which was about my best, and I
stayed in those ranges for about 10 years since I am not genetically
gifted. Coming down from 225 was probably 4 months, 215 about 3 when
trying to retain muscle. There was definitley a strength loss when
coming down, but power to weight wasn't a factor there. Neither was
extended aerobic power. I'd have to dig through my old training logs
for times on a, roughly, 45 minute TT I used to do regularly about
once every other week, which would be the only ride that day, just to
shake up the training and try and correlate it with the weight and
bodyfat levels which I have somewhere. Memory says I was slightly
faster going down to about 10lbs from the goal, then in that last
10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower, and
losing more in the gym too.
Unfortunately the last of this is close to 10 years ago now when the
injuries started catching up with me so the details aren't real sharp
without digging logs out.
I have managed to put on muscle while maintaining the bodyfat level
but it's a lot slower than taking some fat with the muscle gain.
keeping the muscle while losing the fat is, easily, the hardest thing
to do in BB. That's why there are so many drugs used out there,
especially, once your close, diuretics that help get rid of the excess
water "puffiness" from the steroids for razor sharp "cuts". At the
"pro" level, around show times, peoples electrolyte levels and body
chemistry is frequently, totally screwed up resulting in massive
cramping onstage, or in back, one top five type had to literally be
carried off stage and taken to the hospital, and trips to the
hospital, or EMT and then hospital from this crap.
I think most competitive cyclists, that have been racing for a few
years, are close enough, and knowledgeable enough that big gains are
going to be really hard to come by. As others have said a few percent
that is sustainable is a big gain.
From talking to good cycling trainers I don't think the small bf/
weight changes are going to be a big thing if Ryan is looking for more
power/sprinting. More a different structure to the training.
Bill C

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 08:01:28 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>Memory says I was slightly faster going down to about
>10lbs from the goal,

Motivation is typically very high at this point. It can overwhelm
other factors. (Pedaling in anger/joy?)

>that last 10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower,

Percent muscle loss increases as you get closer to goal. Less
available fat to lose (some fat=stubborn).

Guessing heavier than about 180lbs too many factors work against
cycling speed and climbing in average person. Some gifted guys are
built to ride fast and weigh more, but are rare, istm.

Thanks for the info!

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 08:01:28 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>Memory says I was slightly faster going down to about
>10lbs from the goal,

Motivation is typically very high at this point. It can overwhelm
other factors. (Pedaling in anger/joy?)

>that last 10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower,

Percent muscle loss increases as you get closer to goal. Less
available fat to lose (some fat=stubborn).

Guessing heavier than about 180lbs too many factors work against
cycling speed and climbing in average person. Some gifted guys are
built to ride fast and weigh more, but are rare, istm.

Thanks for the info!

[Bret]

On May 13, 10:31*am, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > I have two goals right now:
>
> > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > -up the wattage
> <snip>
> > Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence. *
>
> --
> Bill Asher

Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
herring diet.

Bret

[Bret]

On May 13, 10:31*am, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > I have two goals right now:
>
> > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > -up the wattage
> <snip>
> > Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence. *
>
> --
> Bill Asher

Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
herring diet.

Bret

[Donald Munro]

Steve Freides wrote:
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition to
> continuing to ride your bike.

And drink less beer.

[Paul G.]

On May 13, 10:35 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com>
wrote:
>
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
> to continuing to ride your bike.

Hmmnnn... move heavy objects... does getting out of my easy chair
count? I guess I could strap my remotes to barbells too...
Fortunately, I live in a cycling paradise, so continuing to ride my
bike is easy enough...
-Paul

[Donald Munro]

Steve Freides wrote:
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition to
> continuing to ride your bike.

And drink less beer.

[Paul G.]

On May 13, 10:35 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com>
wrote:
>
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
> to continuing to ride your bike.

Hmmnnn... move heavy objects... does getting out of my easy chair
count? I guess I could strap my remotes to barbells too...
Fortunately, I live in a cycling paradise, so continuing to ride my
bike is easy enough...
-Paul

[Steve Freides]

"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4829d405$0$2984$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.c om...
> Steve Freides wrote:
>> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in
>> addition to
>> continuing to ride your bike.
>
> And drink less beer.

Absolutely, especially immediately post-training.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

[Steve Freides]

"Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4829d405$0$2984$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.c om...
> Steve Freides wrote:
>> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in
>> addition to
>> continuing to ride your bike.
>
> And drink less beer.

Absolutely, especially immediately post-training.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

[Paul G.]

On May 13, 12:51 pm, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
> herring diet.

I dunno about red herring, but I can attest to the ineffectiveness of
the Trader Joe's smoked kippered herring diet.

[Donald Munro]

Bill Asher wrote:
>> Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence. Â*

Bret wrote:
> Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
> herring diet.

The cannibal diet is supposed to be good for cyclists.

[Donald Munro]

Bill Asher wrote:
>> Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence. Â*

Bret wrote:
> Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
> herring diet.

The cannibal diet is supposed to be good for cyclists.

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 12:56:58 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>25lbs of flab gone makes a HUGE difference.
>
>Someone (like a bodybuilder) who has excess muscle mass may find it
>hard to maintain that mass while losing small amounts of fat, but a
>fatso with a 25lbs spare tire isn't going to have a hard time of it.
>I'm a fan of (relatively) high protein diets.
>
>I lost 50-60lbs riding, and I am WAY stronger than I was then. Not to
>mention way faster.
>
>Joseph

Good job, but too vague. IOW, if you were 350lbs and are now 290, I'd
be skeptical of claims of 'faster', unless you consider going from
12mph to 14mph _on average_ 'fast'. :)

But if you were 225 and are now 160, I'd agree.

I also lost 50+ lbs, and am still riding about the same speed on the
flats.

What's your avg speed then vs now, if you don't mind saying?

TIA.

[Nobody]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 12:56:58 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>25lbs of flab gone makes a HUGE difference.
>
>Someone (like a bodybuilder) who has excess muscle mass may find it
>hard to maintain that mass while losing small amounts of fat, but a
>fatso with a 25lbs spare tire isn't going to have a hard time of it.
>I'm a fan of (relatively) high protein diets.
>
>I lost 50-60lbs riding, and I am WAY stronger than I was then. Not to
>mention way faster.
>
>Joseph

Good job, but too vague. IOW, if you were 350lbs and are now 290, I'd
be skeptical of claims of 'faster', unless you consider going from
12mph to 14mph _on average_ 'fast'. :)

But if you were 225 and are now 160, I'd agree.

I also lost 50+ lbs, and am still riding about the same speed on the
flats.

What's your avg speed then vs now, if you don't mind saying?

TIA.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <68ub35F2uh4cqU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Donald Munro" <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4829d405$0$2984$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.c om...
> > Steve Freides wrote:
> >> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in
> >> addition to
> >> continuing to