An all-automatic CVT based bicycle?

[bicycle_disciple]

Hi all!

Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
tried to juggle with this a bit here :
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicycle.html

I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!

[Marz]

On Jun 4, 3:01*am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>
> I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
> one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
> previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
> high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!

Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)

[Tom Kunich]

"bicycle_disciple" <1.crazyboy.only@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1340f7c4-e89b-49c6-8cdc-ec390ef09f92@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> tried to juggle with this a bit here :
> http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicycle.html

Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission on a
device that can usually be powered through a single gear?

[Andre Jute]

bicycle_disciple wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> tried to juggle with this a bit here :
> http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicycle.html
>
> I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
> one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
> previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
> high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!

Shimano already turned their Nexus hub gears into an automatic gearbox
for bicycles. In the top model, called Cyber Nexus or Di2, the system
consists of the following:
-- Di2 8 speed gearbox, essentially same as Nexus 8sp Premium
(redline) and Alfine box
-- Stepper motor attached to box to perform actual gear changes
-- Computer unit to instruct stepper motor when to change
-- Special version of Flight Deck to act as control/infomation centre
-- A switch to select among several gearchange modes if desired
-- Hub dynamo to provide power for all units (the only battery in the
entire system is a is a small flat CR2032 hearing aid battery to keep
the presets alive in the Flight Deck)

In addition, Shimano's Di2 Groupset also includes
-- active front and rear suspension, under the control of the
computers and switches described above

An alternative version of the same system works with derailleur
equipped bikes with, IIRC, 27 speeds; it switches the derailleurs
rather than a hub gearbox but otherwise works much the same.

Shimano's Cyber Nexus/Di2/Smover system (Shimano uses all these names,
and a few others for the same components...) works very much in the
way that Joseph suggests you should turn your adaptation of the
NuVinci into an automatic gearbox.

First the rider chooses a level of exertion on a dial with 8 stops on
the CPU box; this is like, on a lesser bike, choosing a pedalling
cadence and specifying your crankwheels and cluster of sprockets
accordingly. Now the rider just gets on and pedals. Gears are changed
up for him when he speeds up, and down when he slows down. He can
additionally choose among four programmes (by switch, not by voice
command as Joseph wants -- it's bad enough talking to your computer in
private, but talking to your bike on the street is really weird!)
which are manual, Ds, D, and L. Manual is obvious: the gears switch up
and down as you instruct and the box stays in the gear you select. D
is the standard drive mode, fully automatic. Ds locks out the lowest
gear and changes up more quickly than D; it is the sporting mode of
the autobox. L is the leisure mode, and changes into an easy-pedalling
gear as sooner than D, and hangs on to easy pedaling gears as long as
it can. In all manual modes when you stop the computer changes the box
down to the lowest gear permitted in that mode, 1st for D and L, 2nd
for Ds. In other words, it is a fully automatic box, set and forget if
you want to, with additional very pleasing facilities if you want to
use them. In addition the active suspension works the opposite way to
that of a car: when you're going slowly it is set to hard to save all
your power for acceleration, ditto for going up hills; on the downhill
or going fast on the level the computer sets the suspension soft for
comfort.

I might point out that this entire Shimano Cyber Nexus system probably
weighs less than NuVinci hub. Thus, when you have added CPU and
control elements, plus dynohub to provide power, to the NuVinci, it
will weigh much more than the Shimano Cyber Nexus system, which shifts
imperceptibly and whose distinct intervals are around 14 per cent of
its range. CVT by itself is not enough to overcome all those
advantages that Shimano already has, including crucially the fact that
the Nexus 8 speed box is proven beyond any doubt, and the not
forgetting the monstrous benefit of Shimano's history of making
fabulous parts cheaply. Furthermore, Shimano has their target market
right in the crosshairs: their Cyber Nexus system takes clean, fully
enclosed, roller brakes, entirely suited to sort of monied rider who
doesn't llike getting his hands, or his clothes, oily. By contrast the
NuVinci designers are under some kind of a misapprehension that
sporting riders will buy a CVT gearbox, otherwise why did they make
the thing take a disc brake?

Personally, I think that the NuVinci will be gone in a couple of
years; its first makers have already failed and sold out. Shimano,
selling a lighter system built on the solid foundation of proven, even
loved, components, and at a very keen price, couldn't create a mass
market, or even a large niche market for an automatic bike in the
obvious place, at the top of the market for city and credit card
touring bikes; the evidence for this is that there are now very few of
the Cyber Nexus bikes listed out of even the few that were made, and
Shimano is trying again at the very bottom of the pile with, for
instance, the Trek Lime. If Shimano, who have a lot of marketing nous
and clout, couldn't do it, Johnny-come=latelies with only a single
mousetrap to their name, and a poor grasp of the motives of users of
mousetraps (as I have already proved), are most unlikely to last the
course.

However. If you are really so much in love with CVT that you want to
spend your time and pocket-money trying to make the NuVinci automatic,
you could start with the pretty inexpensive (for what they are)
Shimano Cyber Nexus parts already well designed to to the job. You
would need the CPU, the control switch, the Flight Deck, some cables,
and a source of power which had better be the Cyber Nexus specific
dynohub which already has a speed sensor built in which responds to
the CPU, and the stepper unit. The immediate job will be adapt the
stepper unit to switching the NuVinci box; if that fails, get a linear
or rotary stepper unit and attach it to the cable itself and try to
make the Shimano CPU control it. Once you can make the stepper unit
move the CVT box in seven discrete steps (for eight speeds as in the
Nexus 8, because that's what the hardware you're adapting is set up
for), then it will be time to spend some time learning programming so
as to work with the flash ROM inside the CPU to see if you can
programme a continuously variable response to torque input.

HTH.

You can see my own Cyber Nexus automatic bike at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20Trek%20Navigator%20L700%20Smover.html
and about halfway down the page is a clear photo of all the elements
required to make an automatic gearbox work on a bicycle.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

[Werehatrack]

Until a bike can be fitted with at least an applied-effort guage to
provide input to the shift control system, and until the rider can
override control of the automatic shifting, no autoshift arrangement
will be worth a damn for the average rider. All current 'automatic'
bike gear shift systems rely entirely on the assumption that there is
a fixed upper limit for pedalling rpm which can be universally applied
as the proper shift point...which, for most people, is dead wrong.
They typically enforce a far higher cadence than the average rider
wants to use...and no matter what the engineers, professionals,
designers, ergonomicists, and other self-appointed authorities may
want to believe, THE RIDER is the ONLY one who should be making this
decision.

Automotive automatic transmissions use several inputs to determine
shift points; they analog engine output by sensing both engine RPM and
throttle position (and/or, in older units, manifold vacuum), and they
they sense vehicle speed. All of these factors (apparent engine
output, throttle position, speed) are used to modulate both the shift
point and the shift severity. Bike 'automatic' shifters simply
upshift at a fixed speed and assume it's always right...even though,
for most users, that's seldom (if ever) the case.

I've now had the chance to ride two different bikes with automatic
shift setups. Both had exactly the failing described; they wanted to
force me to pedal at a cadence that was unnaturally high. I got the
same response from others who tried them; while the way in which it
was articulated was different, the result was the same. Each rider
wanted a bike that didn't make them pedal "so hard" or "so fast" or
"so much". One complained that the bikes were "too slow" because she
never got the pedalling rate up to the point where the bike would
shift.

Since trying to measure rider effort is a nontrivial task from an
expense and complexity standpoint, I predict that we will continue to
fail to get useful autoshift systems on bikes. This will remain true
regardless of whether the bike employs a gearhub, a derailleur, or a
CVT.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[bicycle_disciple]

On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all!
>
> > Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> > automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> > tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>
> > I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
> > one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
> > previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
> > high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
>
> Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
> no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
> It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)

Marz,

I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
bicycle that "thinks" on its own :) Thats a tougher task.

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Jun 4, 7:02*pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hi all!
>
> > > Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> > > automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> > > tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>
> > > I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
> > > one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
> > > previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
> > > high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
>
> > Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
> > no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
> > It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)
>
> Marz,
>
> I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
> handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
> bicycle that "thinks" on its own :) Thats a tougher task.

Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
readable format):

http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html

Then hack together a program on one of these:

http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html

And use some servo controller to operate the shift:

http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp

If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.

Joseph

[Andre Jute]

On Jun 4, 6:13*pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 7:02*pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi all!
>
> > > > Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> > > > automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> > > > tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>
> > > > I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
> > > > one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
> > > > previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
> > > > high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
>
> > > Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
> > > no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
> > > It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)
>
> > Marz,
>
> > I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
> > handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
> > bicycle that "thinks" on its own :) Thats a tougher task.
>
> Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
> readable format):
>
> http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html
>
> Then hack together a program on one of these:
>
> http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html
>
> And use some servo controller to operate the shift:
>
> http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp
>
> If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
> and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.

Jesus, Joseph -- and Mary, too, not to mention begorrah, sodom and
gemorra. Talking to your computer in your study is bad enough, but
talking to your bike in public is really weird!

But this isn't a new idea, as Shimano's Cyber Nexus already has
different application maps, called D, Ds and L, which regulate how
quickly the gearbox changes up, and in the case of Ds for a sportier
ride locks out first gear. Shimano, thankfully, put those on a
thumbswitch rather than by voice command. The application maps apply a
power curve which has eight steps set on a rotary switch directly on
the CPU, which you might consider in the same way as switching
camshaft profiles in an internal combustion engine. Fuller description
at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20Trek%20Navigator%20L700%20Smover.html
An analogy with a racing/road bike might be a cyclist and his trainer
deciding on a cadence for the cyclist (Cyber Nexus 8 step desired
power output dial or profile of camshaft chosen for auto engine) and
then choosing the crankset and sprocket cluster to match the road
(Cyber Nexus three drive modes or electronic map on auto engine).

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

[bicycle_disciple]

On Jun 4, 1:13 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 7:02 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Hi all!
>
> > > > Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> > > > automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> > > > tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>
> > > > I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
> > > > one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
> > > > previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
> > > > high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
>
> > > Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
> > > no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
> > > It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)
>
> > Marz,
>
> > I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
> > handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
> > bicycle that "thinks" on its own :) Thats a tougher task.
>
> Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
> readable format):
>
> http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html
>
> Then hack together a program on one of these:
>
> http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html
>
> And use some servo controller to operate the shift:
>
> http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp
>
> If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
> and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.
>
> Joseph


Thanks. Good information so far. I already figured that one of the
biggest challenges will be on programming. Other than PIC
microcontrollers, could a PLC be used or is that overkill? I still do
not understand if there's a difference between the two...I know PLC's
can be programmed with special software, I have a little experience
with those.

Joseph : Even I dreamt of voice operation. It would be really
ridiculous going "computer ! shift, downshift, shift, downshift..." on
a climb or a city sidepath.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

[SMS]

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 4, 7:02 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi all!
>>>> Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
>>>> automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
>>>> tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>>>> I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
>>>> one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
>>>> previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
>>>> high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
>>> Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
>>> no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
>>> It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)
>> Marz,
>>
>> I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
>> handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
>> bicycle that "thinks" on its own :) Thats a tougher task.
>
> Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
> readable format):
>
> http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html
>
> Then hack together a program on one of these:
>
> http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html
>
> And use some servo controller to operate the shift:
>
> http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp
>
> If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
> and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.
>
> Joseph

I'd include an inclination sensor, a wind speed sensor, a temperature
sensor, an atmospheric pressure sensor, a humidity sensor, to adjust the
transmission based on these factors as well. Have one input for the
rider to select their fitness level.

[Andre Jute]

On Jun 4, 9:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "bicycle_disciple" <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1340f7c4-e89b-49c6-8cdc-ec390ef09f92@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> > automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> > tried to juggle with this a bit here :
> >http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>
> Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission on a
> device that can usually be powered through a single gear?

What a curmudgeonly old luddite you are, Tom. Let the young man have
his dreams of making something, or making something better, or even
reinventing the wheel. Who knows, if we encourage him he might invent
something to make even you seem, by magic, as fast on your bike as a
young man.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20HUMOUR.html

[Tom Kunich]

"Andre Jute" <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:42d0bc30-f71f-4798-a9a8-9e01b183c84c@b9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 4, 9:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission on a
>> device that can usually be powered through a single gear?
>
> What a curmudgeonly old luddite you are, Tom. Let the young man have
> his dreams of making something, or making something better, or even
> reinventing the wheel. Who knows, if we encourage him he might invent
> something to make even you seem, by magic, as fast on your bike as a
> young man.

Andre, one of the problems is that too many people think "improvement" is
"speed". I don't want to discourage someone from inventing anything they
want. But can't a good bicycle remain a good bicycle?

Look KG241
Time VX Elite
Colnago C40
Eddy Merckx EX Pro
Basso Loto
Raleigh CX
Atala CX converted to a touring bike.

[Andre Jute]

On Jun 5, 4:00 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Andre Jute" <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:42d0bc30-f71f-4798-a9a8-9e01b183c84c@b9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jun 4, 9:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission on a
> >> device that can usually be powered through a single gear?
>
> > What a curmudgeonly old luddite you are, Tom. Let the young man have
> > his dreams of making something, or making something better, or even
> > reinventing the wheel. Who knows, if we encourage him he might invent
> > something to make even you seem, by magic, as fast on your bike as a
> > young man.
>
> Andre, one of the problems is that too many people think "improvement" is
> "speed".

Quite. I've said so many times before. But the problem is that many
cyclists, and many on this conference, do think that improvement and
speed are synonymous to the exclusion of any other equivalence, and
say so, or imply it by constant emphasis on weight. When I arrived on
RBT some posters showed the poor judgement of sneering at me as a
"recreational cyclist", for instance -- and what is opposed to a
recreational cyclist but one who is speedier? Bullies generally
believe that they act with the support and on behalf of the majority,
in short that their opinion is the lowest common denominator.

>I don't want to discourage someone from inventing anything they
> want. But can't a good bicycle remain a good bicycle?

I agree with you. No one should shackle up a thoroughbred to a cart
hauling corpses to the cemetery.

But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about making
a comfort-bike even more comfortable. I, for one, define "improvement"
not as speed (though speed may come into it as a result of other
factors) but as greater comfort, greater ease of operation, more time
to enjoy being out in the open rather than paying attention to
shifting gears or keeping up cadence or proving something by taking
the lead on the steepest hills. You're throwing a bunch of apples --
very well bred apples, true -- into a basket in which this young man,
and I, and Joseph and others, have placed only oranges. I mean, who in
his right mind will put a NuVinci CVT on these bikes:

> Look KG241
> Time VX Elite
> Colnago C40
> Eddy Merckx EX Pro
> Basso Loto
> Raleigh CX
> Atala CX converted to a touring bike.

It's a point I made to the OP already, when I discussed the
miscomprehension of their potential market by the designers of the
NuVinci -- they're in comfort bikes, not sports bikes, but they
demonstrate that they do not understand this by providing fittings for
a disc brake, for all the world as if they believe they're competing
against Rohloff...

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20HUMOUR.html

[joseph.santaniello@gmail.com]

On Jun 5, 6:08*am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 1:13 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 4, 7:02 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Hi all!
>
> > > > > Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
> > > > > automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
> > > > > tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>
> > > > > I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
> > > > > one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
> > > > > previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
> > > > > high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
>
> > > > Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
> > > > no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
> > > > It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)
>
> > > Marz,
>
> > > I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
> > > handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
> > > bicycle that "thinks" on its own :) Thats a tougher task.
>
> > Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
> > readable format):
>
> >http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html
>
> > Then hack together a program on one of these:
>
> >http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html
>
> > And use some servo controller to operate the shift:
>
> >http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp
>
> > If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
> > and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.
>
> > Joseph
>
> Thanks. Good information so far. I already figured that one of the
> biggest challenges will be on programming. Other than PIC
> microcontrollers, could a PLC be used or is that overkill? I still do
> not understand if there's a difference between the two...I know PLC's
> can be programmed with special software, I have a little experience
> with those.

I have only day-dreamed about programming embedded hardware. I've
never done it. That's why I would use something like one of those
gumstix so I would have a "real" computer to play with. I'd do the
programming in a high level language (Python would be my choice) to
make code and debug easier (for me at least).

And servo controllers can be had serial or USB so those should be easy
to work with without needing to become an expert on anything.


> Joseph : Even I dreamt of voice operation. It would be really
> ridiculous going "computer ! shift, downshift, shift, downshift..." on
> a climb or a city sidepath.

A "manual" voice override would be cool, but I was more thinking of
being able to specify different modes, like "race", "hill",
"tailwind", "recovery", etc.

I'd also want it to deal with out of the saddle appropriately too.

Fun!

Joseph

[Michael Press]

In article
<99deb5cc-a441-4408-8ed7-be4c1edcf771@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.only@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 4, 1:13 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 4, 7:02 pm, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz <marzjenni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all!
>>
>>>>> Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
>>>>> automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
>>>>> tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...
>>
>>>>> I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
>>>>> one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
>>>>> previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
>>>>> high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
>>
>>>> Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
>>>> no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
>>>> It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one. :)
>>
>>> I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
>>> handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
>>> bicycle that "thinks" on its own :) Thats a tougher task.
>>
>> Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
>> readable format):
>>
>> http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html
>>
>> Then hack together a program on one of these:
>>
>> http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html
>>
>> And use some servo controller to operate the shift:
>>
>> http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp
>>
>> If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
>> and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.
>
> Thanks. Good information so far. I already figured that one of the
> biggest challenges will be on programming. Other than PIC
> microcontrollers, could a PLC be used or is that overkill? I still do
> not understand if there's a difference between the two...I know PLC's
> can be programmed with special software, I have a little experience
> with those.
>
> Joseph : Even I dreamt of voice operation. It would be really
> ridiculous going "computer ! shift, downshift, shift, downshift..." on
> a climb or a city sidepath.

Speaking commands is much more physical work than flicking
a switch. Those voice recognition voice mail systems?
Hate 'em. And don't you feel turned out being forced to
speak to command and there is nobody there? Fact: those
systems respond to the telephone keypad too. The first
option is accepted by pushing the 1 key, the second option
is accepted by pushing the 2 key... Unfortunately, cellular
telephones do not put out the keypad tones; except some,
and you have to go through contortions to emit them.

--
Michael Press

[bicycle_disciple]

On Jun 5, 12:17 am, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 4:00 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Andre Jute" <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:42d0bc30-f71f-4798-a9a8-9e01b183c84c@b9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Jun 4, 9:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > >> Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission on a
> > >> device that can usually be powered through a single gear?
>
> > > What a curmudgeonly old luddite you are, Tom. Let the young man have
> > > his dreams of making something, or making something better, or even
> > > reinventing the wheel. Who knows, if we encourage him he might invent
> > > something to make even you seem, by magic, as fast on your bike as a
> > > young man.
>
> > Andre, one of the problems is that too many people think "improvement" is
> > "speed".
>
> Quite. I've said so many times before. But the problem is that many
> cyclists, and many on this conference, do think that improvement and
> speed are synonymous to the exclusion of any other equivalence, and
> say so, or imply it by constant emphasis on weight. When I arrived on
> RBT some posters showed the poor judgement of sneering at me as a
> "recreational cyclist", for instance -- and what is opposed to a
> recreational cyclist but one who is speedier? Bullies generally
> believe that they act with the support and on behalf of the majority,
> in short that their opinion is the lowest common denominator.
>
> >I don't want to discourage someone from inventing anything they
> > want. But can't a good bicycle remain a good bicycle?
>
> I agree with you. No one should shackle up a thoroughbred to a cart
> hauling corpses to the cemetery.
>
> But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about making
> a comfort-bike even more comfortable. I, for one, define "improvement"
> not as speed (though speed may come into it as a result of other
> factors) but as greater comfort, greater ease of operation, more time
> to enjoy being out in the open rather than paying attention to
> shifting gears or keeping up cadence or proving something by taking
> the lead on the steepest hills. You're throwing a bunch of apples --
> very well bred apples, true -- into a basket in which this young man,
> and I, and Joseph and others, have placed only oranges. I mean, who in
> his right mind will put a NuVinci CVT on these bikes:
>
> > Look KG241
> > Time VX Elite
> > Colnago C40
> > Eddy Merckx EX Pro
> > Basso Loto
> > Raleigh CX
> > Atala CX converted to a touring bike.
>
> It's a point I made to the OP already, when I discussed the
> miscomprehension of their potential market by the designers of the
> NuVinci -- they're in comfort bikes, not sports bikes, but they
> demonstrate that they do not understand this by providing fittings for
> a disc brake, for all the world as if they believe they're competing
> against Rohloff...
>
> Andre Jutehttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20HUMOUR.html

Andre ,

I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
Some don't even know how to shift! The big question then is should
bike companies impose bicycles that are already available and that
which might not be necessarily optimum on this segment of consumers. I
think its a nice idea to diversify as much as possible and capture
everyone into cycling and bikes, whatever form it is...especially in
these times of ridiculous energy prices.

The challenge of this project however is different. The bike is to
automatically shift based on an objective measurement of effort. My
understanding is that one input alone, like cadence, is insufficient.
I've written my thoughts already here :
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicycle.html

I have one question for you. You described the working of the Di2
system. Now suppose I coast down on such a bike, my RPM is 0 in that
case. Will the system make the mistake of upshifting?

The di2 system is amazing. Previously, I had never heard about this.
Perhaps is it because it is not available in the u.s? I do not get the
entire gist of what you're seeing, it'll be nice if there was a video
to see it actually at work. Anyways, too much writing for today.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

[Hugh Fenton]

"Andre Jute" <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e3088a2d-9c45-44cf-ada0-8de1210859b3@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 4:00 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Andre Jute" <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:42d0bc30-f71f-4798-a9a8-9e01b183c84c@b9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Jun 4, 9:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> >> Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission
>> >> on a
>> >> device that can usually be powered through a single gear?
>>
>> > What a curmudgeonly old luddite you are, Tom. Let the young man have
>> > his dreams of making something, or making something better, or even
>> > reinventing the wheel. Who knows, if we encourage him he might invent
>> > something to make even you seem, by magic, as fast on your bike as a
>> > young man.
>>
>> Andre, one of the problems is that too many people think "improvement" is
>> "speed".
>
> Quite. I've said so many times before. But the problem is that many
> cyclists, and many on this conference, do think that improvement and
> speed are synonymous to the exclusion of any other equivalence, and
> say so, or imply it by constant emphasis on weight. When I arrived on
> RBT some posters showed the poor judgement of sneering at me as a
> "recreational cyclist", for instance -- and what is opposed to a
> recreational cyclist but one who is speedier? Bullies generally
> believe that they act with the support and on behalf of the majority,
> in short that their opinion is the lowest common denominator.
>
>>I don't want to discourage someone from inventing anything they
>> want. But can't a good bicycle remain a good bicycle?
>
> I agree with you. No one should shackle up a thoroughbred to a cart
> hauling corpses to the cemetery.
>
> But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about making
> a comfort-bike even more comfortable. I, for one, define "improvement"
> not as speed (though speed may come into it as a result of other
> factors) but as greater comfort, greater ease of operation, more time
> to enjoy being out in the open rather than paying attention to
> shifting gears or keeping up cadence or proving something by taking
> the lead on the steepest hills. You're throwing a bunch of apples --
> very well bred apples, true -- into a basket in which this young man,
> and I, and Joseph and others, have placed only oranges. I mean, who in
> his right mind will put a NuVinci CVT on these bikes:
>
>> Look KG241
>> Time VX Elite
>> Colnago C40
>> Eddy Merckx EX Pro
>> Basso Loto
>> Raleigh CX
>> Atala CX converted to a touring bike.
>
> It's a point I made to the OP already, when I discussed the
> miscomprehension of their potential market by the designers of the
> NuVinci -- they're in comfort bikes, not sports bikes, but they
> demonstrate that they do not understand this by providing fittings for
> a disc brake, for all the world as if they believe they're competing
> against Rohloff...
>
> Andre Jute
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20HUMOUR.html

And, in any event, how many of us aren't "recreational cyclists." I can
think of professional racers, couriers and the odd rickshaw........for the
rest of us it is basically for enjoyment (....even if I pretend the morning
commute is about "efficiency/environment/time"......I'm sure that if I
didn't enjoy it I'd soon be back in the car.)
Hugh Fenton

[Tom Kunich]

"bicycle_disciple" <1.crazyboy.only@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1059340-0fff-490a-82dd-40d89a8167e8@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
> consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
> Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
> Some don't even know how to shift!

Not to put too fine a point on it but there are few people too stupid to
learn how to shift in minutes. To imply that they need an automatic
transmission instead of a few minutes instruction is pretty whacky.

[Andre Jute]

On Jun 5, 6:16*am, bicycle_disciple <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Total snip, not because what went before is uninteresting but because
we're returning to even more interesting technicalities:}

> Andre ,
>
> I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
> consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
> Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
> Some don't even know how to shift! The big question then is should
> bike companies impose bicycles that are already available and that
> which might not be necessarily optimum on this segment of consumers. I
> think its a nice idea to diversify as much as possible and capture
> everyone into cycling and bikes, whatever form it is...especially in
> these times of ridiculous energy prices.
>
> The challenge of this project however is different. The bike is to
> automatically shift based on an objective measurement of effort. My
> understanding is that one input alone, like cadence, is insufficient.
> I've written my thoughts already here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/all-automatic-cvt-based-bicyc...

Shimano's Di2 system operating parameters are nowhere that is publicly
accessible described in detail or even completely in principle. The
most comprehensive description is on my netsite at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20Trek%20Navigator%20L700%20Smover.html
All the same, you cannot take what I say as gospel; some of that
material I hunted up from what is published, some I deduced or, to put
an engineering gloss on it, concluded from available material or daily
hands-on experience of the Di2 system over more than a year.

Conclusion from available material and experience with the hardware
and software: Shimano's Di2 system responds to six distinct operating
parameters and a couple of manual override modes:

-- intensity of light to switch on and off the lights; nothing to do
with changing the gears

-- motion; the front wheel must move to switch the system on and allow
operation; certain minor display and setting operations, and the
parameter sets, are protected by a small battery in the Flight Deck
(and possibly by either a charged up capacitor or a flash EPROM in the
CPU unit)

-- rider's desired power expenditure, read from an 8-position switch
the rider sets

-- velocity or speed of bike, measured by a sender in the front
dynohub

-- inclination of bike to change the setting of the electronic
suspension when climbing hills; I don't know whether this is also an
input to gear changing or whether gear changing depends solely on the
setting of the power switch and the speed measurement

-- operating map, one of three selected by rider via switch; this
controls how fast the gearbox ramps up the torque conversion; in the
most sporting of these maps bottom gear is locked out altogether

-- manual gearbox override, overrides other modes (maps) to permit
direct gear selection by up-down switch (actual gearchange still
effect by stepper motor as for auto change)

-- manual suspension override, permits firmness setting to be held and
changed by switch (in addition there is a mechanical preset and
lockout dial directly on top of the suspension fork, which performs
the same function for the suspension as the power switch performs for
the gearbox)

So, gear changes are definitely influenced by power setting, speed,
map setting, and possibly by inclination.
Notice that there is no connection to the bottom bracket or cranks. It
is however possible that torque is somehow read at hub and fed back to
the CPU as an input, but then why ask the rider to input a desired
power expenditure? On the whole I think power setting, speed and map
setting are all that is required for gearchanging in the Di2 system.

My experience is that this apparently simple system (compared to the
complicated system Steven Scharf is suggesting in his post) works with
incredible smoothness. My purpose in cycling is fitness, which I
define as endurance rather than bursts of power. Thus I regulate my
ride by putting my heart rate monitor on 80 per cent of max and simply
pedalling to keep it there under all road conditions (with a 15 per
cent max by time allowance for going over when tackling the steepest
hills on my familiar terrain say twice a week). I found that once I
discovered the right power setting, the Di2 system would always put me
in the right gear to hold my heart rate at 80pc of max up and down my
hills. There are no jerks; it is an almost imperceptible system,
which is why I say I cannot see the advantage of CVT unless it can be
made lighter (and weight is probably irrelevant to the small market
for automatic bikes).

> I have one question for you. You described the working of the Di2
> system. Now suppose I coast down on such a bike, my RPM is 0 in that
> case. Will the system make the mistake of upshifting?

The Di2 system manual talks about the system not working if you're not
pedalling but it measures nothing at the pedals, cranks or bottom
bracket, and I doubt it measures torque at the gearhub end. So RPM is
irrelevant. Whoever wrote the English manual just suffered a memory
glitch in which he forgot that the Di2 group isn't a cadence-
controlled racing gruppe. What happens is that according to power
setting, speed and selected mode (map) the CPU instructs the gearbox
to be in the correct gear for what you will do next; despite its
simplicity, it is a predictive system. If you're coasting fast
downhill, the gearbox remains in top gear; if you brake to a speed
where the best acceleration will be in a lower gear, the system will
change down to that gear. If you're coasting through a dip and the
speed falls as you coast up the next hill, the gearbox changes down so
that you are in the right gear to start pedalling at your
predetermined preferred power. If you're braking to a stop, the
gearbox changes down to the lowest gear permitted by the selected map
(first gear for maps D and L, second gear for map Ds). I've not in 14
months and about 2300 klicks caught out the Di2 system; Shimano got it
right.

> The di2 system is amazing. Previously, I had never heard about this.
> Perhaps is it because it is not available in the u.s?

Cyber Nexus is found on luxury Dutch city bikes, Swiss sporting bikes,
and bikes sold at a big premium by car companies like Daimler-Benz,
makers of Mercedes. The head of Kogo-Miyata said Cyber Nexus was her
vision of the bike of tomorrow; I don't know if Koga even lists a
Cyber Nexus bike any more; other luxury makers like Gazelle still
offer autobox-only Cyber Nexus models (without the fancy electronic
suspension) at a pretty good price but I don't imagine they sell all
that many. (Frankly, except for technofreaks like you'n'me, I'm not
sure there is a market; the Nexus manual gearchange is easy enough for
everyone, so an automatic gearbox is a solution in search of a non-
existent problem. There may be space for a cheap autobox at the other
end of the market, but beginners don't buy bikes in the Cyber Nexus/
Smover price class.) Even Trek, pretty wide awake marketers, made a
special line for the Cyber Nexus; Trek is now trying with automatic
bikes at a much lower part of the market. Like Citroen cars, it seems
likely that Cyber Nexus was considered too complicated for American
consumers and mechanics...

>I do not get the
> entire gist of what you're seeing, it'll be nice if there was a video
> to see it actually at work.

A video of me riding along, pedalling and doing nothing else, would be
dead boring. The point about Shimano's Di2 system is that there is
nothing visible or audible from the system, and the rider does nothing
except pedal and look around. That's what made Shimano's own video so
dull -- there was nothing for those interested in the engineering to
latch onto.

>Anyways, too much writing for today.
>
> BDhttp://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

HTH.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

[Jenny Brien]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:09:36 +0100, joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:


> A "manual" voice override would be cool, but I was more thinking of
> being able to specify different modes, like "race", "hill",
> "tailwind", "recovery", etc.
>
> I'd also want it to deal with out of the saddle appropriately too.
>
> Fun!
>
> Joseph

Shout BANZAI!!! as you attack?

[Andre Jute]

On Jun 5, 2:42 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "bicycle_disciple" <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a1059340-0fff-490a-82dd-40d89a8167e8@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
> > consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
> > Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
> > Some don't even know how to shift!
>
> Not to put too fine a point on it but there are few people too stupid to
> learn how to shift in minutes. To imply that they need an automatic
> transmission instead of a few minutes instruction is pretty whacky.

This isn't about stupidity, Tom, but about the perceptions of
potential customers. If they think shifting will be difficult, they
won't even buy a bike. Therefore it is smart to introduce automatic
gears for new bicyclists somewhere near the cheap end of the market.

Second point: for those who fear derailleur shifting, there is the
option of hub gears with a simple, single rotary control. Even simpler
is the NuVinci with its continuously variable control.

Third point, same as first: the problem with automating the 8sp Nexus
and the NuVinci is that the necessary price puts the bike back in a
market where potential purchasers will be people either with bike
experience or those with the confidence to try anything and willing to
bet they will succeed. (Even I first bought a manual Nexus and ran it
for a couple of years for experience before splashing out on the
electronic automatic version -- and I'm pretty electronically savvy.)
In that case, the automatic bike must count on selling to technofreaks
and maybe the terminally incompetent rich. How many of either class
can there be? (Mind you, I know one guy who complained that his
electric bike was too difficult to ride...) So an automatic bike must
be cheap and appeal to new bicyclists -- of which there are
potentially tens of millions -- to have a chance of surviving by
creating a mass market.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

[Andre Jute]

It's quite a while since I've seen such a concentration of opinionated
wrongheadedness even on RBT as this post:

On Jun 5, 5:29*pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
> Until a bike can be fitted with at least an applied-effort guage to
> provide input to the shift control system, and until the rider can
> override control of the automatic shifting, no autoshift arrangement
> will be worth a damn for the average rider. *

Shimano's Cyber Nexus does better than merely measure applied effort:
it permits the rider to choose his level of effort and adapts to his
choice.

Of course the Cyber Nexus system allows manual overrides of both the
gearbox and the electronic suspension.

>All current 'automatic'
> bike gear shift systems rely entirely on the assumption that there is
> a fixed upper limit for pedalling rpm which can be universally applied
> as the proper shift point...which, for most people, is dead wrong.

Crap. I've explained several times already that the Cyber Nexus system
allows you to choose how fast you want to pedal.

> They typically enforce a far higher cadence than the average rider
> wants to use...and no matter what the engineers, professionals,
> designers, ergonomicists, and other self-appointed authorities may
> want to believe, THE RIDER is the ONLY one who should be making this
> decision. *

In the Cyber Nexus system the rider already makes this decision He
has 8 power expenditure choices, and can operate each according to
three different "ramping" maps instantly available under his thumb.
You haven't read the thread, Werehatrack; you're talking through the
back of your neck.

> Automotive automatic transmissions use several inputs to determine
> shift points; they analog engine output by sensing both engine RPM and
> throttle position (and/or, in older units, manifold vacuum), and they
> they sense vehicle speed. *All of these factors (apparent engine
> output, throttle position, speed) are used to modulate both the shift
> point and the shift severity. *Bike 'automatic' shifters simply
> upshift at a fixed speed and assume it's always right...even though,
> for most users, that's seldom (if ever) the case.

Crap. Once more, the Cyber Nexus system offers 8 choices of power
input, and 3 further choices of how fast the gears change and from
where gear changes start.

> I've now had the chance to ride two different bikes with automatic
> shift setups. *

You should name them.


>Both had exactly the failing described; they wanted to
> force me to pedal at a cadence that was unnaturally high. *I got the
> same response from others who tried them; while the way in which it
> was articulated was different, the result was the same. *Each rider
> wanted a bike that didn't make them pedal "so hard" or "so fast" or
> "so much". *One complained that the bikes were "too slow" because she
> never got the pedalling rate up to the point where the bike would
> shift. *

These must be pretty crude "automatic" gearboxes.

> Since trying to measure rider effort is a nontrivial task from an
> expense and complexity standpoint, I predict that we will continue to
> fail to get useful autoshift systems on bikes. *

Yawn. We've had useful systems from Shimano for getting on for two
decades now, first the Auto-D fourspeed system and then the 8sp Cyber
Nexus/Di2 system.

>This will remain true
> regardless of whether the bike employs a gearhub, a derailleur, or a
> CVT. *

It hasn't been true for years, so it cannot be true into the future.

> --
> My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
> Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

I hope you enjoyed your rant, Werehatrack.

The facts, if you are interested in facts at all, are here:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20Trek%20Navigator%20L700%20Smover.html

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html