IT GOES TO ELEVEN !

[shayana.kadidal@gmail.com]

WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04

(Seriously, though, it can't be true, right? Nothing they put into
production hasn't first been tested thru the pro ranks for a while,
no? Didn't the first ten speeds appear in the pro peloton a few months
before they were introduced for consumers, or am I misremembering
that?)

[Derk]

shayana.kadidal@gmail.com wrote:

> WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
Old news: I brought it 17/05/08 to this newsgroup already:

"New Campa Record and Chorus 11 speed"

Derk

[* * Chas]

<shayana.kadidal@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca1165c1-9f92-4841-9a0d-371e6373fcb1@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04
>
> (Seriously, though, it can't be true, right? Nothing they put into
> production hasn't first been tested thru the pro ranks for a while,
> no? Didn't the first ten speeds appear in the pro peloton a few months
> before they were introduced for consumers, or am I misremembering
> that?)

Spinal Tap "These got to 11"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVWJgIzftE

Inferior manmeat image.... 8-)

Chas.

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:40:42 -0700 (PDT), shayana.kadidal@gmail.com may
have said:

>WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
>UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04
>
>(Seriously, though, it can't be true, right? Nothing they put into
>production hasn't first been tested thru the pro ranks for a while,
>no? Didn't the first ten speeds appear in the pro peloton a few months
>before they were introduced for consumers, or am I misremembering
>that?)

Beyond a certain point, it's all pretty much of a "why bother" issue,
at least to me. I seldom use all of the gear combinations I have now;
more of them won't make me faster, or more stylish, or younger, or
better looking, or richer (quite the opposite), or wittier, or more
famous.

So Campy announced an 11s cassette setup. There comes a point at
which the absurdity factor has to kick in; while I have no doubt that
there will be riders who will embrace the new toy with what Campy's
marketing people feel is the appropriate degree of reverence, I have
little doubt that there will be more than a few riders who will look
at it and say "I have enough now, I don't need to spend the money for
this."

Some products are introduced into a demand vacuum. I can't say that
such is the case here, but the air's certainly getting mighty rarefied
at these altitudes.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

[jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org]

I've noticed talking to bicyclists that most believe the more gears
one has the easier bicycling becomes, both in the flatland and
mountains. These are also the folks who believe bicycle saddles are
too hard, handlebars too low and narrow and many other earmarks of a
non bicyclist.

We are not Cummins 6-cylinder truck diesels that runs best at one RPM,
just as starting from a stop sign requires running through the gears
as a loaded ready-mix truck may. Unfortunately these folks are in the
majority and spend the most on a bicycle that, like a jacked up black
SUV with multiple rumbling exhaust pipes lends credibility to their
existence.

http://www.cummins.com/cmi/index.jsp?siteId=1&langId=1033&newsInfo=true

The rate at which one can climb long grades depends more on lungs and
heart than hardware and carbon fiber. Most of these folks have not
tried anything like the Stelvio pass in Italy or for that matter,
Sonora Pass in California.

http://tinyurl.com/agnvh

Jobst

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jun 5, 1:40 am, shayana.kadi...@gmail.com wrote:
> WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04

And, as Dave Barry would say:

Shimano engineers, meeting in an emergency design conference, said
"Quick - what comes after 11?"


- Frank Krygowski

[smokey]

On Jun 4, 10:40*pm, shayana.kadi...@gmail.com wrote:
> WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04
>
> (Seriously, though, it can't be true, right? Nothing they put into
> production hasn't first been tested thru the pro ranks for a while,
> no? Didn't the first ten speeds appear in the pro peloton a few months
> before they were introduced for consumers, or am I misremembering
> that?)

Seems to me that things are getting a little ridiculous. I'm still on
8-speed and find it more than adequate for my needs. I read somewhere
that Shimano had a 12 speed cassette on the drawing boards. Where will
it all end?

Smokey

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <48478307$0$14352$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
Derk <nobody@invalid.org> wrote:

> shayana.kadidal@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> > UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
> Old news: I brought it 17/05/08 to this newsgroup already:
>
> "New Campa Record and Chorus 11 speed"
>
> Derk

Yeah, but we didn't believe you :).

I don't know what to say, except that when you mentioned it, I said it
sounded pretty stupid. James Huang is usually pretty reliable on this
sort of stuff, so I accept that there's a high chance this is really
going to happen.

It's still stupid. On the other hand, I am a nine-speed retrogrouch, and
can only suppose that the 8-speed retrogrouches are pointing at me and
saying "A BRIDGE TOO FAR!"

Jobst is famously a 6-speed (or was it 7?) retrogrouch, and somehow in
an era of drivetrains that go to 11, his position seems more sensible,
not less.

Eagerly awaiting the production quad-ring drivetrain,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Jun 5, 1:40*pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:40:42 -0700 (PDT), shayana.kadi...@gmail.com may
> have said:
>
> >WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> >UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04
>
> >(Seriously, though, it can't be true, right? Nothing they put into
> >production hasn't first been tested thru the pro ranks for a while,
> >no? Didn't the first ten speeds appear in the pro peloton a few months
> >before they were introduced for consumers, or am I misremembering
> >that?)
>
> Beyond a certain point, it's all pretty much of a "why bother" issue,
> at least to me. *I seldom use all of the gear combinations I have now;
> more of them won't make me faster, or more stylish, or younger, or
> better looking, or richer (quite the opposite), or wittier, or more
> famous. *
>
> So Campy announced an 11s cassette setup. *There comes a point at
> which the absurdity factor has to kick in; while I have no doubt that
> there will be riders who will embrace the new toy with what Campy's
> marketing people feel is the appropriate degree of reverence, I have
> little doubt that there will be more than a few riders who will look
> at it and say "I have enough now, I don't need to spend the money for
> this."
>
> Some products are introduced into a demand vacuum. *I can't say that
> such is the case here, but the air's certainly getting mighty rarefied
> at these altitudes.
>
> --
> My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
> Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

================================================== ========================

I agree that there comes a point where you say "why bother and what's
the point." I wonder how the spokes are going to hold up or are they
going to increase the spacing between the dropouts again? What about
the chain-line? How many of these 11 gears in the rear can you
actually use without cross-chaining?

It seems to me that you really do not get either higher or lower
gearing with more cogs just smaller jumps between cogs.

Are we eventually going to see corncob clusters of from 11 teeth to 26
teeth in one-tooth increments? I mean with 11 cogs and a high of 11
teeth you can have a corncob cluster to 21 teeth.

I can remember reading articles in Bicycling magazine (from the 70's
iirc) that stated emphatically that 15 gears were not needed.

Peter

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:40:21 -0600, Werehatrack
<rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:

>Beyond a certain point, it's all pretty much of a "why bother" issue,
>at least to me.

Yeah. But for me we haven't reached that poing with ten cogs. Ten
suits me for 98% of the riding I do each year. Eleven would take it
to almost 100%. Twelve would be a little nicer even. Thirteen would
have zero value.

[Art Harris]

Werehatrack wrote:
>
> Beyond a certain point, it's all pretty much of a "why bother" issue,
> at least to me. *
>

That was back around the 8-speed era.


> I have
> little doubt that there will be more than a few riders who will look
> at it and say "I have enough now, I don't need to spend the money for
> this."
>

Until their current stuff breaks and can't be replaced. That's the
problem.

Art Harris

[A Muzi]

> shayana.kadidal@gmail.com may have said:
>> WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
>> UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>>
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04
>>
>> (Seriously, though, it can't be true, right? Nothing they put into
>> production hasn't first been tested thru the pro ranks for a while,
>> no? Didn't the first ten speeds appear in the pro peloton a few months
>> before they were introduced for consumers, or am I misremembering
>> that?)

Werehatrack wrote:
> Beyond a certain point, it's all pretty much of a "why bother" issue,
> at least to me. I seldom use all of the gear combinations I have now;
> more of them won't make me faster, or more stylish, or younger, or
> better looking, or richer (quite the opposite), or wittier, or more
> famous.
>
> So Campy announced an 11s cassette setup. There comes a point at
> which the absurdity factor has to kick in; while I have no doubt that
> there will be riders who will embrace the new toy with what Campy's
> marketing people feel is the appropriate degree of reverence, I have
> little doubt that there will be more than a few riders who will look
> at it and say "I have enough now, I don't need to spend the money for
> this."
>
> Some products are introduced into a demand vacuum. I can't say that
> such is the case here, but the air's certainly getting mighty rarefied
> at these altitudes.

I would have written something like that ('Eleven? feh') but, as I read
yours, I realized that Campagnolo has now 'bracketed' bicycle gear systems:

* Xenon Nine speed, to fill in the back of the catalog, "You can't
possibly want the cheap stuff! Everyone but everyone has at least Ten!"

* New Record Eleven, well, just because, "It's the top of the range"

* Everything else, for everyone else, "I need a lot of gear choices, but
not quite the professional Eleven gear"

As the legendary "Good-Better-Best", the whole idea is to sell a lot of
the midrange product. Eleven addresses that, making Ten a 'not excessive
by comparison' choice.

It's nearly trite to summarize as, "The crap we sold you last year is
passé; Here's the new one".
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:03:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>11 teeth to 26
>teeth in one-tooth increments?

For me, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 28 would be
desirable. Closer than that would have no value.

[Dan O]

On Jun 5, 10:03 am, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pat...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 1:40 pm, Werehatrack <raul...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:40:42 -0700 (PDT), shayana.kadi...@gmail.com may
> > have said:
>
> > >WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> > >UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>

<snip>

>
> > Beyond a certain point, it's all pretty much of a "why bother" issue,
> > at least to me. I seldom use all of the gear combinations I have now;
> > more of them won't make me faster, or more stylish, or younger, or
> > better looking, or richer (quite the opposite), or wittier, or more
> > famous.
>

<snip>


> I agree that there comes a point where you say "why bother and what's
> the point." I wonder how the spokes are going to hold up or are they
> going to increase the spacing between the dropouts again? What about
> the chain-line? How many of these 11 gears in the rear can you
> actually use without cross-chaining?
>

<snip>

>
> I can remember reading articles in Bicycling magazine (from the 70's
> iirc) that stated emphatically that 15 gears were not needed.
>

I have 12, but really only ever use 8 of them, and mostly only about 5
or 6.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <rgag44lh09rnta905cqld1kpmh64ivb0bh@4ax.com>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:03:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> >11 teeth to 26
> >teeth in one-tooth increments?
>
> For me, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 28 would be
> desirable. Closer than that would have no value.

JT: don't throw out your old stuff. I'll be happy to recycle it for you.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[peter]

On Jun 5, 11:03 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Werehatrack wrote:
>
> > Beyond a certain point, it's all pretty much of a "why bother" issue,
> > at least to me.
>
> That was back around the 8-speed era.
>
> > I have
> > little doubt that there will be more than a few riders who will look
> > at it and say "I have enough now, I don't need to spend the money for
> > this."
>
> Until their current stuff breaks and can't be replaced. That's the
> problem.

Are you expecting that to happen soon? My current bikes are 5-cog
(tandem), 6-cog (touring), 7-cog (road), and 8-cog (folding) and I
haven't experienced any problem getting parts for any of them.

[* * Chas]

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:48489b3d$0$17171$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> I've noticed talking to bicyclists that most believe the more gears
> one has the easier bicycling becomes, both in the flatland and
> mountains. These are also the folks who believe bicycle saddles are
> too hard, handlebars too low and narrow and many other earmarks of a
> non bicyclist.
>
> We are not Cummins 6-cylinder truck diesels that runs best at one RPM,
> just as starting from a stop sign requires running through the gears
> as a loaded ready-mix truck may. Unfortunately these folks are in the
> majority and spend the most on a bicycle that, like a jacked up black
> SUV with multiple rumbling exhaust pipes lends credibility to their
> existence.
>
> http://www.cummins.com/cmi/index.jsp?siteId=1&langId=1033&newsInfo=true
>
> The rate at which one can climb long grades depends more on lungs and
> heart than hardware and carbon fiber. Most of these folks have not
> tried anything like the Stelvio pass in Italy or for that matter,
> Sonora Pass in California.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/agnvh
>
> Jobst

Derailleurs were not permitted in the Tour de France until the late 1930s.

On a CR Fausto Coppi memorial ride in Woodside last summer there were 2
guys riding 1949 Bianchi Paris-Roubaix bikes with 50T chainrings and 4
speed freewheels. These bikes had the single lever version of Cambio Corsa
shifters.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bianchipr.html

The bikes were only 4 speeds but both riders were off the front for most
of the ride!

Chas.

[Derk]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> Yeah, but we didn't believe you :).
I hoped I was wrong too. This is something we just don't need. I'd be very
happy with a Centaur gruppo with 100% aluminium parts and the old type
shifters that let you decide how many gears you want to shift up or down.

> I don't know what to say, except that when you mentioned it, I said it
> sounded pretty stupid. James Huang is usually pretty reliable on this
> sort of stuff
Isn't that the guy who's always very excited about every new product?

> It's still stupid. On the other hand, I am a nine-speed retrogrouch
I have 9 speed Dura-Ace on all my bikes and stock 9s parts for decades to
come.

Derk

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Jun 5, 8:25*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <48478307$0$14352$e4fe5...@news.xs4all.nl>,
>
> *Derk <nob...@invalid.org> wrote:
> > shayana.kadi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> > > UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
> > Old news: I brought it 17/05/08 to this newsgroup already:
>
> > "New Campa Record and Chorus 11 speed"
>
> > Derk
>
> Yeah, but we didn't believe you :).
>
> I don't know what to say, except that when you mentioned it, I said it
> sounded pretty stupid. James Huang is usually pretty reliable on this
> sort of stuff, so I accept that there's a high chance this is really
> going to happen.
>
> It's still stupid. On the other hand, I am a nine-speed retrogrouch, and
> can only suppose that the 8-speed retrogrouches are pointing at me and
> saying "A BRIDGE TOO FAR!"

Piker. If the stuff is less that 2 decades old, shifters click and the
cogs come off but the body stays on, you are not any self respecting
'retrogrouch'.
>
> Jobst is famously a 6-speed (or was it 7?) retrogrouch, and somehow in
> an era of drivetrains that go to 11, his position seems more sensible,
> not less.
>
> Eagerly awaiting the production quad-ring drivetrain,
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@gmail.comhttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:26:16 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com>
wrote:

>In article <rgag44lh09rnta905cqld1kpmh64ivb0bh@4ax.com>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:03:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
>> <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >11 teeth to 26
>> >teeth in one-tooth increments?
>>
>> For me, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 28 would be
>> desirable. Closer than that would have no value.
>
>JT: don't throw out your old stuff. I'll be happy to recycle it for you.

I still use my 9-speed stuff a lot.

But if you're interested in used 8-speed cassettes or used and new
9-speed cassettes (the 9 only in 12-23) I'll send you a list in a
month or two -- I'm moving and doing an inventory. The new stuff I
want to sell. The used will go for shipping only.

[JG]

>For me, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 28 would be desirable.

Assuming you are running a 50-34, you are adding a 32.8" to a 36.7" at
the low end...

JG

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <4848d9fd$0$14349$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
Derk <nobody@invalid.org> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but we didn't believe you :).
> I hoped I was wrong too. This is something we just don't need. I'd be very
> happy with a Centaur gruppo with 100% aluminium parts and the old type
> shifters that let you decide how many gears you want to shift up or down.
>
> > I don't know what to say, except that when you mentioned it, I said it
> > sounded pretty stupid. James Huang is usually pretty reliable on this
> > sort of stuff
> Isn't that the guy who's always very excited about every new product?

I have previously mocked Cycling News here for rating products on a
scale of 4 to 5, and of course lots of the daily tech news is (as with
almost any daily-tech site out there, bike or not) lightly edited
new-product press releases (look for phrases like "is said to be..."
when he stops believing the marketing).

However, his peloton reports are a rich and nutritious broth of
un-badged prototypes, non-production features, and outright sponsor
cheating. It's the most comprehensive look at pro bikes and future bits
that I've found online, at least in English.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Hank]

On Jun 12, 12:51*pm, smokey <smokeystrodt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 10:40*pm, shayana.kadi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > WHY ISN'T THE ONLY THING BEING DISCUSSED ON THIS BOARD THE TOTALLY
> > UNCONFIRMED RUMORS OF IMPENDING CAMPY 11 SPEED???!!!
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04
>
> > (Seriously, though, it can't be true, right? Nothing they put into
> > production hasn't first been tested thru the pro ranks for a while,
> > no? Didn't the first ten speeds appear in the pro peloton a few months
> > before they were introduced for consumers, or am I misremembering
> > that?)
>
> Seems to me that things are getting a little ridiculous. I'm still on
> 8-speed and find it more than adequate for my needs. I read somewhere
> that Shimano had a 12 speed cassette on the drawing boards. Where will
> it all end?
>
> Smokey

They got a patent on a 14-speed system probably 5 or 6 years ago.
Doesn't mean it will ever get made in that form.