"Pump Peg" Still Usefull?

[Art Harris]

One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
braces on the other end.

I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)

I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.

So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
pump installed under the TT of this bike?

Thanks,
Art Harris

[SMS]

Art Harris wrote:
> One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> braces on the other end.
>
> I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.

Hmm, on my Zefal HP, I don't need to use a clamp-on cap. I have
different length Zefal HP pumps for different bicycles, to avoid the
necessity of a cap. The HP comes in four different sizes.

"http://www.yellowjersey.org/hpx.html"

Ouch..those have gotten expensive, thanks to the Republicans!

[BrandyCycles@gmail.com]

On Jun 5, 8:39 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> braces on the other end.
>
> I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> pump installed under the TT of this bike?
>
> Thanks,
> Art Harris

I think a lot of "modern frames" can accommodate a pump peg. They
just don't...which I find really irritating. Probably nothing on a
frame has a higher benefit-to-cost ratio. Having to strap, clamp,
duct-tape, glue, or whatever a frame pump to an otherwise beautiful
bicycle is an aesthetic offensive of the highest order.

I guess we're all just supposed to load up on CO2 and relegate our
frame pumps to the equipment boneyard. I don't like the limitations
of CO2. I know for some they make sense but for the vast majority of
cyclists, a full sized frame pump would be a better choice. Frame
builders should acknowledge this and provide proper pump pegs.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Jun 5, 6:39*am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> braces on the other end.
>
> I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> pump installed under the TT of this bike?
>
> Thanks,
> Art Harris

Yep and most full sized frame pumps come in sizes to match you TT
length.

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jun 5, 5:39*am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> braces on the other end.
>
> I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> pump installed under the TT of this bike?
>

As other people have implied, the problem is that
your pump is too short. For many frames, the pump
that fits along the seat tube is too short to run the
entire length of the top tube. The plastic standoffs
on the head end of a Zefal pump can fit in the
top tube-seat tube junction while the handle end
fits against the pump peg. If you don't have a pump
peg, Zefal made a plastic peg that fit on with a
hose-clamp style strap. These will fit under a brake
cable better than the old metal clamp-on pump cap,
although they are stylistically inelegant.

A Zefal HPx (not HP) has an angled handle end that
fits into acute angle tube junctions. This lets you
run it along the seat tube without using a pump cap
or peg.

The really trick way of carrying a pump is to have
your frame builder braze one or two pegs onto the
left seatstay, and mounting the pump along that.

Ben

[A Muzi]

Art Harris wrote:
> One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> braces on the other end.
>
> I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> pump installed under the TT of this bike?

Use Zéfal's nylon pump band at the front of the top tube with your Zéfal
pump's plastic 'wings' at the seat tube junction.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[A Muzi]

> Art Harris wrote:
>> One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
>> Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
>> braces on the other end.
>>
>> I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
>> braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
>> metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
>> fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
>> the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>>
>> I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
>> one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
>> cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
>> and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.

SMS wrote:
> Hmm, on my Zefal HP, I don't need to use a clamp-on cap. I have
> different length Zefal HP pumps for different bicycles, to avoid the
> necessity of a cap. The HP comes in four different sizes.
>
> "http://www.yellowjersey.org/hpx.html"
>
> Ouch..those have gotten expensive, thanks to the Republicans!

HP are flat-top pumps. Later HPX are frame fit
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[andresmuro@aol.com]

On Jun 5, 7:55 am, BrandyCyc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 5, 8:39 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> > Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> > braces on the other end.
>
> > I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> > braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> > metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> > fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> > the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> > I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> > one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> > cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> > and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> > So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> > actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> > pump installed under the TT of this bike?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Art Harris
>
> I think a lot of "modern frames" can accommodate a pump peg. They
> just don't...which I find really irritating. Probably nothing on a
> frame has a higher benefit-to-cost ratio. Having to strap, clamp,
> duct-tape, glue, or whatever a frame pump to an otherwise beautiful
> bicycle is an aesthetic offensive of the highest order.
>
> I guess we're all just supposed to load up on CO2 and relegate our
> frame pumps to the equipment boneyard. I don't like the limitations
> of CO2. I know for some they make sense but for the vast majority of
> cyclists, a full sized frame pump would be a better choice. Frame
> builders should acknowledge this and provide proper pump pegs.

Even with a pump peg, I'd still use some velcro to hold the pump to
the frame. I had a zefal pump that fitted nice and tight under the top
tube with a peg. I didn't have anything else. I rode over some uneven
train tracks and the pump fell off. Riders behind rode over it and the
pump was toast. Since then, I always have a small piece of extra
velcro holding the pump as prevention.

Andres

[riggodeezil@hotmail.com]

On Jun 5, 9:55*am, BrandyCyc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 5, 8:39 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> > Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> > braces on the other end.
>
> > I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> > braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> > metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> > fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> > the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> > I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> > one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> > cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> > and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> > So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> > actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> > pump installed under the TT of this bike?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Art Harris
>
> I think a lot of "modern frames" can accommodate a pump peg. *They
> just don't...which I find really irritating. *Probably nothing on a
> frame has a higher benefit-to-cost ratio. *Having to strap, clamp,
> duct-tape, glue, or whatever a frame pump to an otherwise beautiful
> bicycle is an aesthetic offensive of the highest order.
>
> I guess we're all just supposed to load up on CO2 and relegate our
> frame pumps to the equipment boneyard. *I don't like the limitations
> of CO2. *I know for some they make sense but for the vast majority of
> cyclists, a full sized frame pump would be a better choice. *Frame
> builders should acknowledge this and provide proper pump pegs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
anchor and take up shuffleboard.

[A Muzi]

> Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
>> Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
>> braces on the other end.
>>
>> I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
>> braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
>> metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
>> fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
>> the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>>
>> I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
>> one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
>> cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
>> and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>>
>> So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
>> actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
>> pump installed under the TT of this bike?

BrandyCycles@gmail.com wrote:
> I think a lot of "modern frames" can accommodate a pump peg. They
> just don't...which I find really irritating. Probably nothing on a
> frame has a higher benefit-to-cost ratio. Having to strap, clamp,
> duct-tape, glue, or whatever a frame pump to an otherwise beautiful
> bicycle is an aesthetic offensive of the highest order.
>
> I guess we're all just supposed to load up on CO2 and relegate our
> frame pumps to the equipment boneyard. I don't like the limitations
> of CO2. I know for some they make sense but for the vast majority of
> cyclists, a full sized frame pump would be a better choice. Frame
> builders should acknowledge this and provide proper pump pegs.

Yep and when you get old, you will be singing "They improved it until it
didn't work", a popular tune around here.

OP says it's a 'classic steel bike' so this isn't a big deal. If he
upgraded to the 1985 model or newer pump he would need no hardware at
all. Many 'alternate materials' modern frames are not at all pump-friendly.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Art Harris]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" wrote:
> > So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> > actually get in the way?
>
> Yep and most full sized frame pumps come in sizes to match you TT
> length.

Thanks for the concise answer, Peter. That's what I needed to know.
I'm going to get a Zefal HPX-4.

Art Harris

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Jun 5, 10:49*am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 7:55 am, BrandyCyc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 8:39 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> > > Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> > > braces on the other end.
>
> > > I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> > > braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> > > metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> > > fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> > > the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> > > I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> > > one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> > > cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> > > and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> > > So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> > > actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> > > pump installed under the TT of this bike?
>
> > > Thanks,
> > > Art Harris
>
> > I think a lot of "modern frames" can accommodate a pump peg. *They
> > just don't...which I find really irritating. *Probably nothing on a
> > frame has a higher benefit-to-cost ratio. *Having to strap, clamp,
> > duct-tape, glue, or whatever a frame pump to an otherwise beautiful
> > bicycle is an aesthetic offensive of the highest order.
>
> > I guess we're all just supposed to load up on CO2 and relegate our
> > frame pumps to the equipment boneyard. *I don't like the limitations
> > of CO2. *I know for some they make sense but for the vast majority of
> > cyclists, a full sized frame pump would be a better choice. *Frame
> > builders should acknowledge this and provide proper pump pegs.
>
> Even with a pump peg, I'd still use some velcro to hold the pump to
> the frame. I had a zefal pump that fitted nice and tight under the top
> tube with a peg. I didn't have anything else. I rode over some uneven
> train tracks and the pump fell off. Riders behind rode over it and the
> pump was toast. Since then, I always have a small piece of extra
> velcro holding the pump as prevention.
>
> Andres- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

================================================== =======================

It might have been repairable. Years ago I was at Pedlar Cycles in
Toronto when a cyclist came in to get a new aluminium body Zefal HP
pump. He had his with him. It had fallen off the bicycle and was run
over by a car. He gave the pump to the shop. The shop gave the pump to
me when I asked if I could have it. I took it home and removed the
plunger assembly. Then I force a hardwood dowel down the pump body.
Amazingly that pumped worked for many years afterwards. The shop
thought it would have made great advertising for Zefal.

Cheers from Peter

[Colin Campbell]

>
> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> anchor and take up shuffleboard.

Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.

Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?

With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.

CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
eat more goodies!

[BrandyCycles@gmail.com]

On Jun 5, 11:03 am, riggodee...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 5, 9:55 am, BrandyCyc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 8:39 am, Art Harris <n...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > One of my classic steel road bikes has a pump peg on the head tube. My
> > > Zefal HP frame pump has a hole for a pump peg on one end, but plastic
> > > braces on the other end.
>
> > > I currently have the pump installed on the seat tube (the plastic
> > > braces press against the seat tube/down tube interface, and a clamp-on
> > > metal cap attached to the seat tube holds the other end. This works
> > > fine except that I can't mount a water bottle on the seat tube. (In
> > > the warm weather, I'd like to carry two water bottles.)
>
> > > I tried mounting the HP pump under the top tube using the pump peg on
> > > one end and the clamp-on cap on the other. Problem is that the brake
> > > cable guides on top of the top tube interfere with the clamp-on cap,
> > > and the clamp is also too big for the 1" top tube.
>
> > > So do modern frame pumps still accomodate a pump peg, or would the peg
> > > actually get in the way? Any suggestions how I can get a full size
> > > pump installed under the TT of this bike?
>
> > > Thanks,
> > > Art Harris
>
> > I think a lot of "modern frames" can accommodate a pump peg. They
> > just don't...which I find really irritating. Probably nothing on a
> > frame has a higher benefit-to-cost ratio. Having to strap, clamp,
> > duct-tape, glue, or whatever a frame pump to an otherwise beautiful
> > bicycle is an aesthetic offensive of the highest order.
>
> > I guess we're all just supposed to load up on CO2 and relegate our
> > frame pumps to the equipment boneyard. I don't like the limitations
> > of CO2. I know for some they make sense but for the vast majority of
> > cyclists, a full sized frame pump would be a better choice. Frame
> > builders should acknowledge this and provide proper pump pegs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> anchor and take up shuffleboard.

Full grown, will not use C02, and wouldn't convert my bike into a boat
anchor even if I could attach it to you and throw the entire thing
into the Everglades.

Try pedaling your ass down something other than perfectly paved
asphalt and/or actually riding for longer than 10 minutes some time.
C02 makes little or no sense for 99% of all cyclists out there.

[riggodeezil@hotmail.com]

On Jun 5, 11:27*am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> eat more goodies!

Oh c'mon...let's not turn this into a referendum on the energy crisis.
The only cyclists still using pumps are luddites and "retrogrouches".
More power to 'em. CO2 is a modern solution for modern cyclists using
modern frames. Pump pegs are at the right place in terms of the
evolution of bicycles and equipement...obscure, "cute", and retro. If
you want one on your frame, you SHOULD have to custom order it. They
now belong in the "boneyard" along with gonfluers, hand-operated
derailluers, bar-mounted bottle cages, and "standard reach" brakes.
Yes, there is still a niche market for these things (ok, maybe not
gonfluers) but they are not mainstream.

Over many thousands of miles, I have used maybe 2 CO2 cartridges. If
you take care of your tires, properly inflate them with a floor pump,
etc. it isn't like you will need to blow through a couple hundred CO2
cartridges every month.

[Michael Press]

In article <4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Colin Campbell <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote:

> >
> > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> eat more goodies!

When I am pumping air I am not riding the bicycle.
Of course I carry a pump.

--
Michael Press

[Lou Holtman]

"Colin Campbell" <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> eat more goodies!

When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
said.
'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
'Three months'.
'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
that'.
Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....

Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

Lou

[landotter]

On Jun 5, 10:46*am, riggodee...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 5, 11:27*am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> > it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > eat more goodies!
>
> Oh c'mon...let's not turn this into a referendum on the energy crisis.
> The only cyclists still using pumps are luddites and "retrogrouches".
> More power to 'em. *CO2 is a modern solution for modern cyclists using
> modern frames.

So tell me why I have to stop and top up you CO2ists at least once per
week with my mini-pump?

land*post-modern*otter

[Jay Beattie]

On Jun 5, 8:46*am, riggodee...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 5, 11:27*am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> > it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > eat more goodies!
>
> Oh c'mon...let's not turn this into a referendum on the energy crisis.
> The only cyclists still using pumps are luddites and "retrogrouches".
> More power to 'em. *CO2 is a modern solution for modern cyclists using
> modern frames. *Pump pegs are at the right place in terms of the
> evolution of bicycles and equipement...obscure, "cute", and retro. *If
> you want one on your frame, you SHOULD have to custom order it. *They
> now belong in the "boneyard" along with gonfluers, hand-operated
> derailluers, bar-mounted bottle cages, and "standard reach" brakes.
> Yes, there is still a niche market for these things (ok, maybe not
> gonfluers) *but they are not mainstream.
>
> Over many thousands of miles, I have used maybe 2 CO2 cartridges. *If
> you take care of your tires, properly inflate them with a floor pump,
> etc. it isn't like you will need to blow through a couple hundred CO2
> cartridges every month.- Hide quoted text -

CO2 is fine except when things go really wrong. A couple of weeks
ago, I sliced up a tire sidewall and blew the tube while in the middle
of nowhere. I went to put in a spare (after finding an appropriate
boot) and after pumping it up, I realized it had a hole in it. I
found the hole and patched it. Repeat. Damn, it had a second hole --
what was this thing doing in my seatbag? I fix that. Pump up the
tire, and the valve stem falls out. It's the tube from hell! So, now
I have two patches left and the original tube with a giant blow-out
hole that barely fits under a patch. I patched that, and it held --
thank God, I made it back to town and bought some new tubes and a
tire.

This is really more an object lesson about making sure you have good
tubes and a patch kit in your seatbag -- and maybe a cell phone. But
because I had a frame pump, I was able to extricate myself from a bad
situation. I would have blown through a CO2 cartride and been looking
for a ride. Now, if it were just throwing in a spare, then CO2 would
have saved me from the PITA mini-pump (which is the only thing that
fits on the bike). -- Jay Beattie.

[riggodeezil@hotmail.com]

On Jun 5, 12:21*pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 10:46*am, riggodee...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 11:27*am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > > > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> > > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> > > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> > > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > > fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> > > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> > > it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > > eat more goodies!
>
> > Oh c'mon...let's not turn this into a referendum on the energy crisis.
> > The only cyclists still using pumps are luddites and "retrogrouches".
> > More power to 'em. *CO2 is a modern solution for modern cyclists using
> > modern frames.
>
> So tell me why I have to stop and top up you CO2ists at least once per
> week with my mini-pump?
>
> land*post-modern*otter- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, being modern with equipment does not give one a license to be
unprepared or incompetent. You still have to know your equipment, how
to use a CO2 inflator, etc. Thankfully, there are post-modern
landotters out there to protect the ignorant from long walks home.
The few times I have had to use my C02 I have not had serious
underinflation issues-- completed the ride enjoyably and made it home
fine. I must confess thought that in addtion to my CO2, I do carry a
presta-to-schraeder adaptor just in case. Mini-pumps seem like a
receipe or frustration. What does it take? About 10,000 strokes to
get up to a rideable 90 psi? No thanks.

[still just me]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:10:00 -0700 (PDT), "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

>As other people have implied, the problem is that
>your pump is too short. For many frames, the pump
>that fits along the seat tube is too short to run the
>entire length of the top tube. The plastic standoffs
>on the head end of a Zefal pump can fit in the
>top tube-seat tube junction while the handle end
>fits against the pump peg. If you don't have a pump
>peg, Zefal made a plastic peg that fit on with a
>hose-clamp style strap. These will fit under a brake
>cable better than the old metal clamp-on pump cap,
>although they are stylistically inelegant.

Yes... to the OP - there are different length HP's available.

The ancestor to the HP was the Zefal Competition. It had both the
plastic standoffs to fit on a frame on the seat or head tube AND it
had a hole in the pump head to use pump pegs at BOTH ends. You could
also use it with the cap type AFA umbrella on the handle of course.
Very adaptable. They came in different lengths. You could use one on
your top tube with one end in an umbrella and the other with the peg
in the hole of the head.

When the HP came out they changed the head to eliminate the hole for
the peg. I think that's because they added the clamping lever and it
didn't work any more (and pegs were passe).

You can find them on Ebay from time to time. Look for a Zefal that
looks like an HP but has a larger barrel. It typically says
Competition on the barrel but it can be worn out now. They sometimes
came in French colors with a blue head and red grip or with a silver
head and a black grip. They were shiny anodized instead of the HP's
dull gray finish.

>A Zefal HPx (not HP) has an angled handle end that
>fits into acute angle tube junctions. This lets you
>run it along the seat tube without using a pump cap
>or peg.

When it matches well enough on length.
>
>The really trick way of carrying a pump is to have
>your frame builder braze one or two pegs onto the
>left seatstay, and mounting the pump along that.

Oh, that's a fashion tragedy!

[Hank]

On Jun 5, 11:48 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> >The really trick way of carrying a pump is to have
> >your frame builder braze one or two pegs onto the
> >left seatstay, and mounting the pump along that.
>
> Oh, that's a fashion tragedy!

I got tired of my top-tube mounted pump rattling over bumps, and I
didn't like the look of a Velcro strap. Then, I discovered that the
pump fit perfectly along the left seatstay, no pegs needed. the handle
end goes against the dropout, and the valve end nestles beween the
seatstay end and the seat tube. I drilled a small drain hole in the
handle end in case of rain. I bought the pump when I had my frame
repainted, and had the pump painted to match. You have to look pretty
hard to even see the thing.

[Jasper Janssen]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:48:55 GMT, still just me
<wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:

>When the HP came out they changed the head to eliminate the hole for
>the peg. I think that's because they added the clamping lever and it
>didn't work any more (and pegs were passe).

My HPx (I think it is) has peg holes at both ends.

Jasper

[A Muzi]

> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>> As other people have implied, the problem is that
>> your pump is too short. For many frames, the pump
>> that fits along the seat tube is too short to run the
>> entire length of the top tube. The plastic standoffs
>> on the head end of a Zefal pump can fit in the
>> top tube-seat tube junction while the handle end
>> fits against the pump peg. If you don't have a pump
>> peg, Zefal made a plastic peg that fit on with a
>> hose-clamp style strap. These will fit under a brake
>> cable better than the old metal clamp-on pump cap,
>> although they are stylistically inelegant.

still just me wrote:
> Yes... to the OP - there are different length HP's available.
> The ancestor to the HP was the Zefal Competition. It had both the
> plastic standoffs to fit on a frame on the seat or head tube AND it
> had a hole in the pump head to use pump pegs at BOTH ends. You could
> also use it with the cap type AFA umbrella on the handle of course.
> Very adaptable. They came in different lengths. You could use one on
> your top tube with one end in an umbrella and the other with the peg
> in the hole of the head.
> When the HP came out they changed the head to eliminate the hole for
> the peg. I think that's because they added the clamping lever and it
> didn't work any more (and pegs were passe).
> You can find them on Ebay from time to time. Look for a Zefal that
> looks like an HP but has a larger barrel. It typically says
> Competition on the barrel but it can be worn out now. They sometimes
> came in French colors with a blue head and red grip or with a silver
> head and a black grip. They were shiny anodized instead of the HP's
> dull gray finish.

> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>> A Zefal HPx (not HP) has an angled handle end that
>> fits into acute angle tube junctions. This lets you
>> run it along the seat tube without using a pump cap
>> or peg.

still just me wrote:
> When it matches well enough on length.

> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>> The really trick way of carrying a pump is to have
>> your frame builder braze one or two pegs onto the
>> left seatstay, and mounting the pump along that.

still just me wrote:
> Oh, that's a fashion tragedy!

The original '80s HPX through the most recent HPX revision all have a
dimple in the handle for a pump peg. HPX are three sizes, HP are one length.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jun 5, 11:48*am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:10:00 -0700 (PDT), "b...@mambo.ucolick.org"
> wrote:
>
> >The really trick way of carrying a pump is to have
> >your frame builder braze one or two pegs onto the
> >left seatstay, and mounting the pump along that.
>
> Oh, that's a fashion tragedy!

On the contrary. It provides elegantly minimal
pump storage that is out of the way. A friend of mine
had Rick Hunter of Hunter Cycles do this for his
frame and it looked quite nice. You can sometimes
do similarly by running the pump between seat cluster
and QR lever as JFT described. With the braze-ons,
the pump stays in firmly and doesn't run the risk
of falling out when you go over bumps.

Ben

[A R:nen]

Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> writes:

> CO2 is fine except when things go really wrong.

For that there are combined CO2 inflator + pump thingies (mine is from
Barbieri but I think now there are others as well) that combine the
convenience of CO2 with the masochism of a mini pump. By the time you
actually need the pump feature, you can't help but laugh hysterically.

Also consider the environmental benefits of all that CO2 being trapped
inside 16 g cartridges (at least temporarily) rather than flowing
freely and doing all kinds of nasty things to the atmosphere.

[riggodeezil@hotmail.com]

On Jun 5, 3:02*pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 8:46*am, riggodee...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 11:27*am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > > > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> > > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> > > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> > > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > > fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> > > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> > > it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > > eat more goodies!
>
> > Oh c'mon...let's not turn this into a referendum on the energy crisis.
> > The only cyclists still using pumps are luddites and "retrogrouches".
> > More power to 'em. *CO2 is a modern solution for modern cyclists using
> > modern frames. *Pump pegs are at the right place in terms of the
> > evolution of bicycles and equipement...obscure, "cute", and retro. *If
> > you want one on your frame, you SHOULD have to custom order it. *They
> > now belong in the "boneyard" along with gonfluers, hand-operated
> > derailluers, bar-mounted bottle cages, and "standard reach" brakes.
> > Yes, there is still a niche market for these things (ok, maybe not
> > gonfluers) *but they are not mainstream.
>
> > Over many thousands of miles, I have used maybe 2 CO2 cartridges. *If
> > you take care of your tires, properly inflate them with a floor pump,
> > etc. it isn't like you will need to blow through a couple hundred CO2
> > cartridges every month.- Hide quoted text -
>
> CO2 is fine except when things go really wrong. *A couple of weeks
> ago, I sliced up a tire sidewall and blew the tube while in the middle
> of nowhere. *I went to put in a spare (after finding an appropriate
> boot) and after pumping it up, I realized it had a hole in it. *I
> found the hole and patched it. *Repeat. *Damn, it had a second hole --
> what was this thing doing in my seatbag? *I fix that. *Pump up the
> tire, and the valve stem falls out. *It's the tube from hell! *So, now
> I have two patches left and the original tube with a giant blow-out
> hole that barely fits under a patch. I patched that, and it held --
> thank God, I made it back to town and bought some new tubes and a
> tire.
>
> This is really more an object lesson about making sure you have good
> tubes and a patch kit in your seatbag -- and maybe a cell phone. *But
> because I had a frame pump, I was able to extricate myself from a bad
> situation. *I would have blown through a CO2 cartride and been looking
> for a ride. *Now, if it were just throwing in a spare, then CO2 would
> have saved me from the PITA mini-pump (which is the only thing that
> fits on the bike). -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I guess if you have defected spare tubes and don't know it, then not
having a pump could be a disaster. I never carry spares in my seatbag
due to the problems you allude to-- other object rubbing or poking
them. I carry 2 spares in my jersey pockets both of which I sometimes
test with the floor pump to make sure everything is still good to go.
In fact this is the only reason I have or use bike specific jerseys,
for the 3 stash pockets.

People need to check their repair equipment periodically. Pumps can
go bad and not function when you need them most. I once gave a ride
home to a guy that had a flat and one of those mini-pumps where the
pump head and vibrated loose long ago and he didn't realize it until
that very day. I've seen guys open their seatbags for the first time
in a long while and find rusted , inoperable equipment (e.g., chain
tools).

[Michael Press]

In article
<46f2465d-01ef-4857-aad8-9b3ab9a44e77@z24g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:

> On Jun 5, 8:46*am, riggodee...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 5, 11:27*am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > > > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
> >
> > > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
> >
> > > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
> >
> > > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > > fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
> >
> > > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> > > it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > > eat more goodies!
> >
> > Oh c'mon...let's not turn this into a referendum on the energy crisis.
> > The only cyclists still using pumps are luddites and "retrogrouches".
> > More power to 'em. *CO2 is a modern solution for modern cyclists using
> > modern frames. *Pump pegs are at the right place in terms of the
> > evolution of bicycles and equipement...obscure, "cute", and retro. *If
> > you want one on your frame, you SHOULD have to custom order it. *They
> > now belong in the "boneyard" along with gonfluers, hand-operated
> > derailluers, bar-mounted bottle cages, and "standard reach" brakes.
> > Yes, there is still a niche market for these things (ok, maybe not
> > gonfluers) *but they are not mainstream.
> >
> > Over many thousands of miles, I have used maybe 2 CO2 cartridges. *If
> > you take care of your tires, properly inflate them with a floor pump,
> > etc. it isn't like you will need to blow through a couple hundred CO2
> > cartridges every month.- Hide quoted text -
>
> CO2 is fine except when things go really wrong. A couple of weeks
> ago, I sliced up a tire sidewall and blew the tube while in the middle
> of nowhere. I went to put in a spare (after finding an appropriate
> boot) and after pumping it up, I realized it had a hole in it. I
> found the hole and patched it. Repeat. Damn, it had a second hole --
> what was this thing doing in my seatbag? I fix that. Pump up the
> tire, and the valve stem falls out. It's the tube from hell! So, now
> I have two patches left and the original tube with a giant blow-out
> hole that barely fits under a patch. I patched that, and it held --
> thank God, I made it back to town and bought some new tubes and a
> tire.
>
> This is really more an object lesson about making sure you have good
> tubes and a patch kit in your seatbag -- and maybe a cell phone. But
> because I had a frame pump, I was able to extricate myself from a bad
> situation. I would have blown through a CO2 cartride and been looking
> for a ride. Now, if it were just throwing in a spare, then CO2 would
> have saved me from the PITA mini-pump (which is the only thing that
> fits on the bike). -- Jay Beattie.

Carry a tube to replace a punctured tube, a tube to replace
the buggered up replacement tube, and a third tube for back up.
Oh, yes, and the patch kit.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article <ysrx3anrejdz.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>,
oronkain@ling.helsinki.fi (A R:nen) wrote:

> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> writes:
>
> > CO2 is fine except when things go really wrong.
>
> For that there are combined CO2 inflator + pump thingies (mine is from
> Barbieri but I think now there are others as well) that combine the
> convenience of CO2 with the masochism of a mini pump. By the time you
> actually need the pump feature, you can't help but laugh hysterically.

That's because you are using the NO2 cartridges.

--
Michael Press

[still just me]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT), Hank <hank@wirtznet.net>
wrote:

>On Jun 5, 11:48 am, still just me <wheeledBobNOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> >The really trick way of carrying a pump is to have
>> >your frame builder braze one or two pegs onto the
>> >left seatstay, and mounting the pump along that.
>>
>> Oh, that's a fashion tragedy!
>
>I got tired of my top-tube mounted pump rattling over bumps, and I
>didn't like the look of a Velcro strap. Then, I discovered that the
>pump fit perfectly along the left seatstay, no pegs needed. the handle
>end goes against the dropout, and the valve end nestles beween the
>seatstay end and the seat tube. I drilled a small drain hole in the
>handle end in case of rain. I bought the pump when I had my frame
>repainted, and had the pump painted to match. You have to look pretty
>hard to even see the thing.

Interesting.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT), Hank <hank@wirtznet.net>
wrote:

>I got tired of my top-tube mounted pump rattling over bumps, and I
>didn't like the look of a Velcro strap. Then, I discovered that the
>pump fit perfectly along the left seatstay, no pegs needed. the handle
>end goes against the dropout, and the valve end nestles beween the
>seatstay end and the seat tube. I drilled a small drain hole in the
>handle end in case of rain. I bought the pump when I had my frame
>repainted, and had the pump painted to match. You have to look pretty
>hard to even see the thing.

I sometimes carry a pump that way. The downside is that if/when you
ride on wet roads, a fair amount of water gets into the pump handle
and over time that can destroy the pump.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:58:24 GMT, still just me
<wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT), Hank <hank@wirtznet.net>
>wrote:

>>
>>I got tired of my top-tube mounted pump rattling over bumps, and I
>>didn't like the look of a Velcro strap. Then, I discovered that the
>>pump fit perfectly along the left seatstay, no pegs needed. the handle
>>end goes against the dropout, and the valve end nestles beween the
>>seatstay end and the seat tube. I drilled a small drain hole in the
>>handle end in case of rain. I bought the pump when I had my frame
>>repainted, and had the pump painted to match. You have to look pretty
>>hard to even see the thing.
>
>Interesting.

Sometimes this requires a shorter pump. And sometimes one can use the
end of the quick release lever as a sort of pump peg, if the pump
won't stay nicely snuggled against the drop out or the dropout shape
is not right.

[Hank]

On Jun 5, 2:05 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT), Hank <h...@wirtznet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I got tired of my top-tube mounted pump rattling over bumps, and I
> >didn't like the look of a Velcro strap. Then, I discovered that the
> >pump fit perfectly along the left seatstay, no pegs needed. the handle
> >end goes against the dropout, and the valve end nestles beween the
> >seatstay end and the seat tube. I drilled a small drain hole in the
> >handle end in case of rain. I bought the pump when I had my frame
> >repainted, and had the pump painted to match. You have to look pretty
> >hard to even see the thing.
>
> I sometimes carry a pump that way. The downside is that if/when you
> ride on wet roads, a fair amount of water gets into the pump handle
> and over time that can destroy the pump.

This is partially true. It doesn't harm your ability to pump air, but
it can cause other problems.

On my Topeak Master Blaster, accumulated dirt can seize up the "HP/X"
twist lock. If you can't lock it, pumping high pressures is tough,
because you have to bottom out the spring before any air is pumped at
high pressure. If you have locked it, pumped your tire and can't
unlock it afterwards, you can't mount it back on the bike. I try to
check it after it dries out after a wet ride, and if it's seized, I
take apart the handle and clean it, which takes about 3 or 4 minutes.
The drain hole I drilled in the peg dimple has helped minimize the
problems.

[Art Harris]

A Muzi wrote:
> The original '80s HPX through the most recent HPX revision all have a
> dimple in the handle for a pump peg.

That's what I needed to know. Thanks.

Art

[Jay Beattie]

On Jun 5, 7:43*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <46f2465d-01ef-4857-aad8-9b3ab9a44...@z24g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> *Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 8:46*am, riggodee...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Jun 5, 11:27*am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> > > > > anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> > > > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> > > > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > > > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> > > > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > > > fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > > > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> > > > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> > > > it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > > > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > > > eat more goodies!
>
> > > Oh c'mon...let's not turn this into a referendum on the energy crisis.
> > > The only cyclists still using pumps are luddites and "retrogrouches".
> > > More power to 'em. *CO2 is a modern solution for modern cyclists using
> > > modern frames. *Pump pegs are at the right place in terms of the
> > > evolution of bicycles and equipement...obscure, "cute", and retro. *If
> > > you want one on your frame, you SHOULD have to custom order it. *They
> > > now belong in the "boneyard" along with gonfluers, hand-operated
> > > derailluers, bar-mounted bottle cages, and "standard reach" brakes.
> > > Yes, there is still a niche market for these things (ok, maybe not
> > > gonfluers) *but they are not mainstream.
>
> > > Over many thousands of miles, I have used maybe 2 CO2 cartridges. *If
> > > you take care of your tires, properly inflate them with a floor pump,
> > > etc. it isn't like you will need to blow through a couple hundred CO2
> > > cartridges every month.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > CO2 is fine except when things go really wrong. *A couple of weeks
> > ago, I sliced up a tire sidewall and blew the tube while in the middle
> > of nowhere. *I went to put in a spare (after finding an appropriate
> > boot) and after pumping it up, I realized it had a hole in it. *I
> > found the hole and patched it. *Repeat. *Damn, it had a second hole --
> > what was this thing doing in my seatbag? *I fix that. *Pump up the
> > tire, and the valve stem falls out. *It's the tube from hell! *So, now
> > I have two patches left and the original tube with a giant blow-out
> > hole that barely fits under a patch. I patched that, and it held --
> > thank God, I made it back to town and bought some new tubes and a
> > tire.
>
> > This is really more an object lesson about making sure you have good
> > tubes and a patch kit in your seatbag -- and maybe a cell phone. *But
> > because I had a frame pump, I was able to extricate myself from a bad
> > situation. *I would have blown through a CO2 cartride and been looking
> > for a ride. *Now, if it were just throwing in a spare, then CO2 would
> > have saved me from the PITA mini-pump (which is the only thing that
> > fits on the bike). -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Carry a tube to replace a punctured tube, a tube to replace
> the buggered up replacement tube, and a third tube for back up.
> Oh, yes, and the patch kit.

I was lucky I had a patch kit. My bikes went seriously unattended
while I was healing from my broken leg, and I wasn't very dilligent in
checking the contents of the seat bags when I got back to riding. It
was all my fault, but at least I had the equipment to get home. -- Jay
Beattie.

[John Thompson]

On 2008-06-06, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Carry a tube to replace a punctured tube, a tube to replace
> the buggered up replacement tube, and a third tube for back up.
> Oh, yes, and the patch kit.

Too much work. I just don't get flats. :-)

--

John (john@os2.dhs.org)

[landotter]

On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> >> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>
> > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>
> > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>
> > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>
> > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
> > it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > eat more goodies!
>
> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
> said.
> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands ..
> 'Three months'.
> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
> that'.
> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>
> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
scratch either? Three months waiting for the customer because they
don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Jun 6, 1:47*am, "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:

> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

Get the customer what he wants...

I'm having (a very minor) problem making "Dutch, Holland, bicycle"
jibe with rejecting a bigbux custom frame (waiting, transp. risk
factor, can you see where they ground it off, etc. etc.) for having a
pump peg on it, plus wondering at what kind of "riding crowd" one
would have to mingle with where a pump peg, in use or not, would be a
social liability.

Well, like they say, every half a gram or so counts! --D-y

[Michael Press]

In article <1212734879.931756@news-ext.oce.nl>,
"Lou Holtman" <lholremovethis@oce.nl> wrote:

> "Colin Campbell" <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> >>
> >> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> >> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
> >
> > Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
> >
> > Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> > lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
> >
> > With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> > fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> > undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
> >
> > CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
> > it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> > energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> > eat more goodies!
>
> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
> said.
> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
> 'Three months'.
> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
> that'.
> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>
> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

From your report it does not sound as if he asked the customer.
And if that is the case, he mistreating his own customer.
And from the tone of your report he is mostly miserable with everybody.

Really. I admire a piece of equipment in his shop and he starts
*****ing out of the gate. I cannot do business in that type
of atmosphere.

--
Michael Press

[Lou Holtman]

landotter wrote:
> On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
>>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
>>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
>>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
>>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
>>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
>>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
>>> eat more goodies!
>> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
>> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
>> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
>> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
>> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
>> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
>> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
>> said.
>> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
>> 'Three months'.
>> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
>> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
>> that'.
>> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>>
>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>
> Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
> attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
> let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
> scratch either?

Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.

> Three months waiting for the customer because they
> don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.

It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
finishing the bike.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
>
>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>
> Get the customer what he wants...
>
> I'm having (a very minor) problem making "Dutch, Holland, bicycle"
> jibe with rejecting a bigbux custom frame (waiting, transp. risk
> factor, can you see where they ground it off, etc. etc.) for having a
> pump peg on it, plus wondering at what kind of "riding crowd" one
> would have to mingle with where a pump peg, in use or not, would be a
> social liability.
>
> Well, like they say, every half a gram or so counts! --D-y


My English is not that good to understand what you are trying to say.
If you order a red car and they deliver exactly the same model only in
purple you take it anyway and spray paint it red by yourself?

Lou

[JG]

My Ritchey has a bb(?) brazed on the backside of the head tube. Very
minimal, but it holds a Blackburn pump very securely under the top
tube. It never shaken loose and I don't expect it too, but I cringe
at the thought of a stay mounted pump getting loose and stuck in the
wheel...

JG

[landotter]

On Jun 6, 1:09*pm, Lou Holtman <lholditn...@planet.nl> wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
> >> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> >>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> >>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
> >>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
> >>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> >>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
> >>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> >>> fill your tire. *With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> >>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
> >>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. *If you like paying
> >>> it, go ahead. *But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> >>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> >>> eat more goodies!
> >> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
> >> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
> >> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
> >> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
> >> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied..
> >> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
> >> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
> >> said.
> >> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
> >> 'Three months'.
> >> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
> >> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
> >> that'.
> >> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>
> >> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>
> > Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
> > attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
> > let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
> > scratch either?
>
> Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
> custom Ti Seven frame?

That's pretty much what Seven will do and send it back to you. Check
out the thread from a few weeks ago where Andy Muzi needed semi-
horizontal rear dropouts on a mixte Rivendell frame. Did he waste the
customer's time and send it back to Rivendell? No! Yellow Jersey,
unlike the Dutch shop you mentioned, is competent--he brazed in some
new drops himself, color matched the paint, sprayed the drops to
match, and got the customer out the door in a reasonable amount of
time. Sending a frame back stateside to have a pump peg removed??
You've got to be joking--did Seven claim that it was anchored with
special Seven materials only removable at their factory??

>You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.

No, looks like you bought into the Seven marketing hype. You use a
cutoff disc, grind clean, and finish the spot to whatever level of
buff that particular ti finish has. There's nothing magical about a
Seven frame other than their glossy brochures.

> And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.
>

Perhaps--but if they need to send a frame overseas to remove a pump
peg--they're not a full service shop.

[A Muzi]

>>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
>>>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>>>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>>>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
>>>> uses a
>>>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
>>>> system?
>>>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
>>>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
>>>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>>>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
>>>> paying
>>>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
>>>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
>>>> get to
>>>> eat more goodies!

>> "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
>>> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
>>> build
>>> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
>>> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
>>> him. He
>>> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
>>> back'.
>>> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
>>> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
>>> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
>>> problem' he
>>> said.
>>> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
>>> Netherlands .
>>> 'Three months'.
>>> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
>>> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
>>> that'.
>>> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.

> landotter wrote:
>> Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
>> attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
>> let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
>> scratch either?

Lou Holtman wrote:
> Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
> custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
> And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.

> landotter wrote:
>> Three months waiting for the customer because they
>> don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.

Lou Holtman wrote:
> It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
> Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
> finishing the bike.

I'm with Lou. Shop did the right thing. On custom work, it's either
right or it is not. Period. We've been in roughly the same position
ourselves and made the exact same decision.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Jun 6, 1:14*pm, Lou Holtman <lholditn...@planet.nl> wrote:
> dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
> > On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
>
> >> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>
> > Get the customer what he wants...
>
> > I'm having (a very minor) problem making "Dutch, Holland, bicycle"
> > jibe with rejecting a bigbux custom frame (waiting, transp. risk
> > factor, can you see where they ground it off, etc. etc.) for having a
> > pump peg on it, plus wondering at what kind of "riding crowd" one
> > would have to mingle with where a pump peg, in use or not, would be a
> > social liability.
>
> > Well, like they say, every half a gram or so counts! * --D-y
>
> My English is not that good to understand what you are trying to say.
> If you order a red car and they deliver exactly the same model only in
> purple you take it anyway and spray paint it red by yourself?

I'll attempt to translate into "real" (or wouldyoubelieve clear?) Eng:
If there's anything one associates with bicycles used in Holland (esp.
Amsterdam, for me), it's "utilitarian". Except for no air in the
tires, of course.

Just working on stereotypes and generalities here, and of course the
Seven in question is probably someone's special go-fast ride that will
never be placed at risk of being tossed into a canal, but the Dutch
just seem so _practical_, you know? And CO2 (and minipumps) seem to be
much less down-to-earth, surefire ways to inflate bike tires than a
good full-length frame-mount pump.

I once had a guy borrow my Zefal, after his CO2 blew off (operator
error) or he had the Second Flat, whatever. He pumped up his tire, put
the wheel back in, reached in his back pocket and brought out a dollar
bill, handed it to me along with the pump, said "That's how much the
next CO2 cartridge would have cost me, keep it!" and I thought it was
a pretty good joke so I did. I don't remember what kind of bike he had
but I got the feeling that he had just made a decision to start
carrying a pump again, using either the pump or the CO2 for backup.

I also wonder, somewhat, at returning the frame-- although I certainly
do understand sending something back to have it made right as we had
to do with my wife's recent Guru Ti custom frame. If something
happened to the frame on the way over or back, as is not entirely rare
in the shipping business... why yes, the customer would expect to get
what he paid for, certainly, but then it would take even longer, say,
if the bike had to be made over from scratch (I wouldn't want a frame
that had been crunched, like when they drive a fork lift truck tine
through the side of the box to be merely repaired).

To each their own. Someone at Seven is light on lunch money, I'm
guessing. --D-y

[Lou Holtman]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <1212734879.931756@news-ext.oce.nl>,
> "Lou Holtman" <lholremovethis@oce.nl> wrote:
>
>> "Colin Campbell" <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>> news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
>>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
>>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>>>
>>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
>>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
>>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>>>
>>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
>>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
>>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
>>> eat more goodies!
>> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
>> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
>> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
>> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
>> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
>> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
>> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
>> said.
>> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
>> 'Three months'.
>> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
>> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
>> that'.
>> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>>
>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>
> From your report it does not sound as if he asked the customer.

He did. I know that guy.

> And if that is the case, he mistreating his own customer.

No he didn't. I would have done the same in that case.

> And from the tone of your report he is mostly miserable with everybody.

He is a very relaxed guy.

> Really. I admire a piece of equipment in his shop and he starts
> *****ing out of the gate. I cannot do business in that type
> of atmosphere.

If you don't want to do business with him, he probably don't want
business with you either. No problem.
They have the best wrench in the area. The only guy I let service my
bikes. No piercings or tattoo's ;-)

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

landotter wrote:
> On Jun 6, 1:09 pm, Lou Holtman <lholditn...@planet.nl> wrote:
>> landotter wrote:
>>> On Jun 6, 1:47 am, "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
>>>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
>>>>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>>>>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>>>>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
>>>>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
>>>>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
>>>>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
>>>>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>>>>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
>>>>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
>>>>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
>>>>> eat more goodies!
>>>> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
>>>> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
>>>> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
>>>> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
>>>> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
>>>> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
>>>> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
>>>> said.
>>>> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
>>>> 'Three months'.
>>>> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
>>>> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
>>>> that'.
>>>> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>>>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>>> Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
>>> attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
>>> let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
>>> scratch either?
>> Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
>> custom Ti Seven frame?
>
> That's pretty much what Seven will do and send it back to you. Check
> out the thread from a few weeks ago where Andy Muzi needed semi-
> horizontal rear dropouts on a mixte Rivendell frame. Did he waste the
> customer's time and send it back to Rivendell? No! Yellow Jersey,
> unlike the Dutch shop you mentioned, is competent--he brazed in some
> new drops himself, color matched the paint, sprayed the drops to
> match, and got the customer out the door in a reasonable amount of
> time. Sending a frame back stateside to have a pump peg removed??
> You've got to be joking--did Seven claim that it was anchored with
> special Seven materials only removable at their factory??

Well no way I would let Andy braze, grind or spray paint on a brand new
frame. I would wait another three weeks, like this customer. Maybe we
are more patient in The Old World.

>
>> You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
>
> No, looks like you bought into the Seven marketing hype. You use a
> cutoff disc, grind clean, and finish the spot to whatever level of
> buff that particular ti finish has. There's nothing magical about a
> Seven frame other than their glossy brochures.

It wasn't my frame so I'm not bought into the Seven marketing hype. The
welds are beautiful though but their frames are to expensive for what
they offer.


>> And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.
>>
>
> Perhaps--but if they need to send a frame overseas to remove a pump
> peg--they're not a full service shop.

Boy you are wrong again, but lets leave it here. It was just an anecdote

Lou

[Michael Press]

In article <48498f1b$1_5@news4us.nl>,
Lou Holtman <lholditniet@planet.nl> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <1212734879.931756@news-ext.oce.nl>,
> > "Lou Holtman" <lholremovethis@oce.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> "Colin Campbell" <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> >> news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> >>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> >>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
> >>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
> >>>
> >>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> >>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
> >>>
> >>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> >>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> >>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
> >>>
> >>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
> >>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> >>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> >>> eat more goodies!
> >> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
> >> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
> >> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
> >> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
> >> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
> >> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
> >> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
> >> said.
> >> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
> >> 'Three months'.
> >> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
> >> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
> >> that'.
> >> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
> >>
> >> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
> >
> > From your report it does not sound as if he asked the customer.
>
> He did. I know that guy.

OK.

>
> > And if that is the case, he mistreating his own customer.
>
> No he didn't. I would have done the same in that case.

But the tone of your report: first words are "Those American morons..."
Now you say everyone involved is a nice guy, but the tone of the
original report is different.

We would need to see every bit of paperwork to understand this.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article <48498f1b$1_5@news4us.nl>,
Lou Holtman <lholditniet@planet.nl> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <1212734879.931756@news-ext.oce.nl>,
> > "Lou Holtman" <lholremovethis@oce.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> "Colin Campbell" <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> >> news:4848054e$0$5121$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> >>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> >>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
> >>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
> >>>
> >>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and uses a
> >>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge system?
> >>>
> >>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> >>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> >>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
> >>>
> >>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like paying
> >>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> >>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they get to
> >>> eat more goodies!
> >> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to build
> >> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
> >> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to him. He
> >> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it back'.
> >> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
> >> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
> >> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that problem' he
> >> said.
> >> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the Netherlands .
> >> 'Three months'.
> >> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
> >> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
> >> that'.
> >> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
> >>
> >> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
> >
> > From your report it does not sound as if he asked the customer.
>
> He did. I know that guy.
>
> > And if that is the case, he mistreating his own customer.
>
> No he didn't. I would have done the same in that case.
>
> > And from the tone of your report he is mostly miserable with everybody.
>
> He is a very relaxed guy.
>
> > Really. I admire a piece of equipment in his shop and he starts
> > *****ing out of the gate. I cannot do business in that type
> > of atmosphere.
>
> If you don't want to do business with him, he probably don't want
> business with you either. No problem.
> They have the best wrench in the area. The only guy I let service my
> bikes. No piercings or tattoo's ;-)

I said I do not do business in the kind of atmosphere the original
report suggests; not the revised old-world craftsmanship atmosphere.
What is it to you what the "American morons" did unless you share
a prejudice? The welds are still beautiful. And do you really care
about his business problems? I go into a shop with my own problems
and unless they concern the proprietor I keep schtum; I expect him
to return the favor.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article <c068c$48499c36$24406@news.teranews.com>,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> >>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> >>>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
> >>>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
> >>>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
> >>>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
> >>>> uses a
> >>>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
> >>>> system?
> >>>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
> >>>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
> >>>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
> >>>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
> >>>> paying
> >>>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
> >>>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
> >>>> get to
> >>>> eat more goodies!
>
> >> "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
> >>> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
> >>> build
> >>> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
> >>> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
> >>> him. He
> >>> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
> >>> back'.
> >>> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
> >>> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
> >>> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
> >>> problem' he
> >>> said.
> >>> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
> >>> Netherlands .
> >>> 'Three months'.
> >>> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
> >>> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
> >>> that'.
> >>> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
> >>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>
> > landotter wrote:
> >> Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
> >> attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
> >> let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
> >> scratch either?
>
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
> > custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
> > And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.
>
> > landotter wrote:
> >> Three months waiting for the customer because they
> >> don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.
>
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
> > Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
> > finishing the bike.
>
> I'm with Lou. Shop did the right thing. On custom work, it's either
> right or it is not. Period. We've been in roughly the same position
> ourselves and made the exact same decision.

Do you speak with the customer first?
One case the customer directly specified no pump peg;
another case the option was not discussed.

--
Michael Press

[A Muzi]

>>>>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
>>>>>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>>>>>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>>>>>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
>>>>>> uses a
>>>>>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
>>>>>> system?
>>>>>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
>>>>>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
>>>>>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>>>>>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
>>>>>> paying
>>>>>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
>>>>>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
>>>>>> get to
>>>>>> eat more goodies!
>>>> "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
>>>>> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
>>>>> build
>>>>> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
>>>>> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
>>>>> him. He
>>>>> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
>>>>> back'.
>>>>> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
>>>>> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
>>>>> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
>>>>> problem' he
>>>>> said.
>>>>> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
>>>>> Netherlands .
>>>>> 'Three months'.
>>>>> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
>>>>> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
>>>>> that'.
>>>>> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>>>>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>>> landotter wrote:
>>>> Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
>>>> attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
>>>> let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
>>>> scratch either?
>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> Who allows even a very competent LBS dremel on a new multi thousand euro
>>> custom Ti Seven frame? You must have low quality/aesthetic standards.
>>> And boy, you are wrong about the wheels they build.
>>> landotter wrote:
>>>> Three months waiting for the customer because they
>>>> don't know how to operate tools? Very lame.
>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> It took Seven three months to build and ship that custom frame to the
>>> Netherlands. Three weeks return time to get rid of the pump peg and
>>> finishing the bike.

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> I'm with Lou. Shop did the right thing. On custom work, it's either
>> right or it is not. Period. We've been in roughly the same position
>> ourselves and made the exact same decision.

Michael Press wrote:
> Do you speak with the customer first?
> One case the customer directly specified no pump peg;
> another case the option was not discussed.

It should be to customer's taste.

If a customer orders a new touring bike but writes the paint code number
from the chip below the number, not above, he gets the wrong shade of
green. That's a workable situation and in fact he accepted it. (changed
his mind a year later for a respray. On us) Hey it happens, it's not a
crime to be ditzy.

I spoke with a painter yesterday who had a 1968 Paramount restoration
returned because the seat tube panel was a half inch too high (compared
to original spec). I think that customer was being unreasonable (I had
no dog in that fight)

We are respraying a Gios now which we sold new in 1978. It came to us
with a brand new good quality respray, original decals and clear done in
a workmanlike manner. Except it was done in a nice not-quite-Gios blue.
Our customer knows the difference. And cares. Gios Blue is a unique and
difficult color but the first painter should have cleared it with the
customer before spraying.

Parts go on or off as required (and customers notoriously vacillate!)
but a frame spec or finish is harder to rectify when it's off-spec.

I don't know if Seven drills a locating hole before welding a pump peg
and I would not like to find out on a new custom frame. Even so,
finishing across a titanium weld will leave a different texture in a
small spot.

Generally, it should be ruled by customer's taste but, yes, every
incident is a special case.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Lou Holtman]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <c068c$48499c36$24406@news.teranews.com>,
> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>>>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> Grow up and use C02 or, better yet, convert your bike into a boat
>>>>>>> anchor and take up shuffleboard.
>>>>>> Exactly backward reasoning, in my opinion.
>>>>>> Why would anyone who rides a bike (it's pretty good exercise, and
>>>>>> uses a
>>>>>> lot of calories, I've heard) want or need to use a CO2 cartridge
>>>>>> system?
>>>>>> With a pump, you get to use more of your own energy to compress air to
>>>>>> fill your tire. With a CO2 cartridge, you are using energy that was
>>>>>> undoubtedly produced by burning hydrocarbons.
>>>>>> CO2 may be faster, but there's a big price for that. If you like
>>>>>> paying
>>>>>> it, go ahead. But "real cyclists" are out there conserving the world's
>>>>>> energy resources by using their own energy, and as a reward, they
>>>>>> get to
>>>>>> eat more goodies!
>>>> "Lou Holtman" <lholremovet...@oce.nl> wrote:
>>>>> When I visit my LBS I always look at the frames waiting for parts to
>>>>> build
>>>>> them up in their display cabinet (they only do build ups). One day I am
>>>>> admiring a custom made titanium Seven. 'Very nice welds' I said to
>>>>> him. He
>>>>> looked over his glasses behind his desk and said 'we are sending it
>>>>> back'.
>>>>> 'Why?' I asked. 'Those American morons welded a pumppeg on', he replied.
>>>>> 'So?' I asked. 'We ordered a custom frame for the customer and he didn't
>>>>> want that little clit, so we sending it back so they solve that
>>>>> problem' he
>>>>> said.
>>>>> 'How long did you wait for that frame?', since we live in the
>>>>> Netherlands .
>>>>> 'Three months'.
>>>>> 'Isn't it a long time to wait maybe another three months?'
>>>>> 'That doesn't matter, custom, is custom and the customer is paying for
>>>>> that'.
>>>>> Three weeks later I was admiring a build up Seven with no pumppeg....
>>>>> Hé, how about that commitment? I like those guys.
>>> landotter wrote:
>>>> Commitment? Ten minutes with a Dremel cut off disc and a buffing
>>>> attachment and that clit's gone. Sounds like a really crap shop to me--
>>>> let me guess, they probably don't know how to build a wheel from
>>>> scratch either?
>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> Who allows even a ve