metallurgy question

[zencycle]

Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
breakage.

I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
working.

I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?

I'm looking for the applicable terms:

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?

What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
at working the part?

[jim beam]

zencycle wrote:
> Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
> to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
> in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
> breakage.

by absolutely no means is that unique to aluminum.


>
> I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
> working.
>
> I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
> attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
> working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
> essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?

no. there are many concepts above this, but basically, engineering
metal alloys are crystalline. when the crystals are deformed with work,
they accommodate that deformation by increasing defect density within
the crystal structure. and there is a limit to the amount of defect
density it can tolerate before rupture occurs. whether through cold
work or through the chemical changes that occur in aging, the ductility
limit is what is being experienced.

that some alloys appear to be more ductile than others in this case is a
function of initial state vs. final state. if the initial state were
further away from the rupture condition, you would indeed be able to
deform the component many times before failure. bendy foam tie-downs
for example have a highly ductile aluminum wire in them for instance -
and that wire is simply a long way off from its full work harness. many
bike components however are up near their ultimate limit and thus have
limited ability to accommodate more deformation. and if they did,
they'd be weaker.

>
> I'm looking for the applicable terms:
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
> is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?

no, "ductility" is the term you need.


>
> What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
> is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
> at working the part?

see above. many aluminum parts either naturally age and harden or are
artificially aged to harden them. this occurs after forming.
increasing hardness means decreasing ductility.

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jun 6, 12:28 pm, zencycle <zency...@bikerider.com> wrote:
> Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
> to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
> in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
> breakage.
>
> I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
> working.
>
> I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
> attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
> working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
> essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?
>
> I'm looking for the applicable terms:
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
> is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?
>
> What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
> is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
> at working the part?

The modulus of elasticity is how much the material
bends or elongates per applied force. That is not
quite what you are talking about.

A material that can take a significant plastic
deformation without cracking or breaking is called
ductile; the opposite is brittle.

The decrease in ductility after the first bend is
due to "work hardening." Work hardening increases
yield strength and decreases ductility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

Ben

[bicycle_disciple]

On Jun 6, 3:28 pm, zencycle <zency...@bikerider.com> wrote:
> Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
> to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
> in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
> breakage.
>
> I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
> working.
>
> I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
> attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
> working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
> essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?
>
> I'm looking for the applicable terms:
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
> is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?
>
> What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
> is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
> at working the part?



Zencycle :

Hope this helps. Devote sometime to reading this :
http://spokesmanbicycles.com/page.cfm?pageID=330

Ron
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jun 6, 3:28 pm, zencycle <zency...@bikerider.com> wrote:
> Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
> to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
> in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
> breakage.

You've gotten some good explanations. Let me chip in a couple
practical examples.

Don't make too much of the idea that "when you bend it back, stress
cracks occur, and even breakage." They certainly may not.

I've straightened a bent (integral, not removable) derailleur hanger
on my wife's Cannondale, and a bent alloy crank arm on one of my son's
bikes. Both are doing fine, long after the re-bending. (Of course,
the hanger is a very low stress part.)

I've also reshaped the aluminum hanger for the handlebar bag I made.
The hanger is one of those that loops under the stem, over the bars,
and cantilevers forward. This is the largest bar bag I've ever seen,
and it's been heavily loaded many times since 1978. The hanger's 3/8"
diameter 2024 aluminum, heat treated T4 after fabrication. After
many, many bends and twists, it's never cracked.

Loosely speaking, the closer a metal gets to it's bleeding edge of
maximum possible strength, the less the ductility it has, and the more
chance of cracks if you do deform it. But many parts aren't very
close to that edge, and can easily stand some moderate deformation.

- Frank Krygowski

[jim beam]

jim beam wrote:
> zencycle wrote:
>> Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
>> to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
>> in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
>> breakage.
>
> by absolutely no means is that unique to aluminum.
>
>
>>
>> I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
>> working.
>>
>> I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
>> attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
>> working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
>> essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?
>
> no. there are many concepts above this, but basically, engineering
> metal alloys are crystalline. when the crystals are deformed with work,
> they accommodate that deformation by increasing defect density within
> the crystal structure.

that effect is called "ductility".


> and there is a limit to the amount of defect
> density it can tolerate before rupture occurs. whether through cold
> work or through the chemical changes that occur in aging, the ductility
> limit is what is being experienced.
>
> that some alloys appear to be more ductile than others in this case is a
> function of initial state vs. final state. if the initial state were
> further away from the rupture condition, you would indeed be able to
> deform the component many times before failure. bendy foam tie-downs
> for example have a highly ductile aluminum wire in them for instance -
> and that wire is simply a long way off from its full work harness. many
> bike components however are up near their ultimate limit and thus have
> limited ability to accommodate more deformation. and if they did,
> they'd be weaker.
>
>>
>> I'm looking for the applicable terms:
>>
>> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
>> is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?
>
> no, "ductility" is the term you need.
>
>
>>
>> What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
>> is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
>> at working the part?
>
> see above. many aluminum parts either naturally age and harden or are
> artificially aged to harden them. this occurs after forming. increasing
> hardness means decreasing ductility.

[zencycle]

On Jun 6, 11:06 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> zencycle wrote:
> > Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
>
> by absolutely no means is that unique to aluminum.

I didn't write or imply that it was

> no. there are many concepts above this, but basically, engineering
........
> limited ability to accommodate more deformation. and if they did,
> they'd be weaker.

Thank you for the rest, it was helpful.

[zencycle]

Thanks ben, this was _most_ helpful

On Jun 7, 12:07 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:
> On Jun 6, 12:28 pm, zencycle <zency...@bikerider.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
> > to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
> > in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
> > breakage.
>
> > I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
> > working.
>
> > I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
> > attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
> > working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
> > essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?
>
> > I'm looking for the applicable terms:
>
> > Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
> > is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?
>
> > What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
> > is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
> > at working the part?
>
> The modulus of elasticity is how much the material
> bends or elongates per applied force. That is not
> quite what you are talking about.
>
> A material that can take a significant plastic
> deformation without cracking or breaking is called
> ductile; the opposite is brittle.
>
> The decrease in ductility after the first bend is
> due to "work hardening." Work hardening increases
> yield strength and decreases ductility.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening
>
> Ben

[Michael Press]

In article
<e04631cb-64e2-4e7d-a137-2bb6912bab63@v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> On Jun 6, 12:28 pm, zencycle <zency...@bikerider.com> wrote:
> > Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
> > to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
> > in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
> > breakage.
> >
> > I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
> > working.
> >
> > I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
> > attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
> > working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
> > essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?
> >
> > I'm looking for the applicable terms:
> >
> > Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
> > is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?
> >
> > What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
> > is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
> > at working the part?
>
> The modulus of elasticity is how much the material
> bends or elongates per applied force.

Not quite.
It is elongation per applied force per area of applied force.
Modulus of elasticity is stress/strain.
Strain is force applied per area.
Stress is amount of deformation.

Elastic modulus is a 2-tensor of dimension 3.
9 components.
The diagonal components give deformation normal to
a coordinate plane given force applied normal to
the coordinate planes.
The six off diagonal components give shear deformation
for force applied parallel to coordinate planes.
The 9 components could all be different from each other.

--
Michael Press

[jim beam]

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> On Jun 6, 12:28 pm, zencycle <zency...@bikerider.com> wrote:
>> Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
>> to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
>> in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
>> breakage.
>>
>> I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
>> working.
>>
>> I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
>> attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
>> working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
>> essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?
>>
>> I'm looking for the applicable terms:
>>
>> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
>> is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?
>>
>> What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
>> is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
>> at working the part?
>
> The modulus of elasticity is how much the material
> bends or elongates per applied force.

that's just elasticity, not modulus of. modulus is the slope of the
line in the hookes law region of a stress/strain graph.



> That is not
> quite what you are talking about.
>
> A material that can take a significant plastic
> deformation without cracking or breaking is called
> ductile; the opposite is brittle.

drop the "significant". /any/ material that plastically deforms is
ductile to some degree. the question is, "how much". to be clear, the
o.p. is describing low ductility, not brittleness.


>
> The decrease in ductility after the first bend is
> due to "work hardening." Work hardening increases
> yield strength and decreases ductility.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening
>
> Ben

[jim beam]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <e04631cb-64e2-4e7d-a137-2bb6912bab63@v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
> "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 6, 12:28 pm, zencycle <zency...@bikerider.com> wrote:
>>> Aluminum has the characteristic of being able to be bent to a position
>>> to hold its form, pretty much one time, and only to a certain extent
>>> in that shape. When you bend it back, stress cracks occur, and even
>>> breakage.
>>>
>>> I'm only thinking of the context of cold-working, not forging or hot
>>> working.
>>>
>>> I seem to remember the reason for the crack and breakage upon
>>> attempting a second manipulation was that the initial bend in cold
>>> working sets up a crystalline structure, and subsequent working
>>> essentially breaks the structure. Do I have that right?
>>>
>>> I'm looking for the applicable terms:
>>>
>>> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it the modulus of elasticity that
>>> is the overall characteristic that I'm referring to?
>>>
>>> What is the term used for the initial bend (if there is one)? and what
>>> is the name of the stress factor that occurs after the second attempt
>>> at working the part?
>> The modulus of elasticity is how much the material
>> bends or elongates per applied force.
>
> Not quite.
> It is elongation per applied force per area of applied force.
> Modulus of elasticity is stress/strain.

the slope of the line, yes.


> Strain is force applied per area.
> Stress is amount of deformation.

no.

stress is force per area.
strain is elongation per length.



>
> Elastic modulus is a 2-tensor of dimension 3.
> 9 components.
> The diagonal components give deformation normal to
> a coordinate plane given force applied normal to
> the coordinate planes.
> The six off diagonal components give shear deformation
> for force applied parallel to coordinate planes.
> The 9 components could all be different from each other.
>

that's mental masturbation if you can't define stress and strain correctly.

[Ben C]

On 2008-06-08, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
[...]
> Elastic modulus is a 2-tensor of dimension 3.
> 9 components.
> The diagonal components give deformation normal to
> a coordinate plane given force applied normal to
> the coordinate planes.
> The six off diagonal components give shear deformation
> for force applied parallel to coordinate planes.
> The 9 components could all be different from each other.

So for a lump of steel, am I right in thinking the tensor looks like
this:

E 0 0
0 E 0
0 0 E

where E is about 200GPa.

But for CF or something anisotropic, I would have different values all
over the place.

There don't seem to be any "shear components" in my matrix for steel,
but I don't really understand that: coordinate planes are usually
orthogonal, which means force normal to one plane is parallel to the
other two. So I don't see how you can divide forces into two sets of
those normal to coordinate planes and those parallel to them.

[Ben C]

On 2008-06-09, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
[...]
> /any/ material that plastically deforms is ductile to some degree.
> the question is, "how much". to be clear, the o.p. is describing low
> ductility, not brittleness.

What's the difference between low ductility and brittleness?

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-06-08, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
> [...]
>> Elastic modulus is a 2-tensor of dimension 3.
>> 9 components.
>> The diagonal components give deformation normal to
>> a coordinate plane given force applied normal to
>> the coordinate planes.
>> The six off diagonal components give shear deformation
>> for force applied parallel to coordinate planes.
>> The 9 components could all be different from each other.
>
> So for a lump of steel, am I right in thinking the tensor looks like
> this:
>
> E 0 0
> 0 E 0
> 0 0 E
>
> where E is about 200GPa.
>
> But for CF or something anisotropic, I would have different values all
> over the place.
>
> There don't seem to be any "shear components" in my matrix for steel,
> but I don't really understand that: coordinate planes are usually
> orthogonal, which means force normal to one plane is parallel to the
> other two. So I don't see how you can divide forces into two sets of
> those normal to coordinate planes and those parallel to them.

michael press is blowing smoke. [surprise.] yes, you need to know
about triaxial stress, mohr's circle, poisson ratio, etc., if doing
in-depth analysis, but for simple questions about ductility, it's just
bull. particularly when from someone that can't define stress or strain
properly.

[Michael Press]

In article <slrng4pnjh.5i0.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:

> On 2008-06-08, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
> [...]
> > Elastic modulus is a 2-tensor of dimension 3.
> > 9 components.
> > The diagonal components give deformation normal to
> > a coordinate plane given force applied normal to
> > the coordinate planes.
> > The six off diagonal components give shear deformation
> > for force applied parallel to coordinate planes.
> > The 9 components could all be different from each other.
>
> So for a lump of steel, am I right in thinking the tensor looks like
> this:
>
> E 0 0
> 0 E 0
> 0 0 E
>
> where E is about 200GPa.
>
> But for CF or something anisotropic, I would have different values all
> over the place.
>
> There don't seem to be any "shear components" in my matrix for steel,
> but I don't really understand that: coordinate planes are usually
> orthogonal, which means force normal to one plane is parallel to the
> other two. So I don't see how you can divide forces into two sets of
> those normal to coordinate planes and those parallel to them.

Epoxy resin and carbon fiber lay ups have anisotropic elastic properties,
as do various crystals.

<http://books.google.com/books?id=90_ORVHeNkIC&pg=PT237&lpg=PT237&dq=anisotropic+crystal+%22elastic+modulus%22&source=web&ots=Zg1nRkq41y&sig=39g5dHxh5jGudvEd3_N-aug5sFc&hl=en>

--
Michael Press

[Tom Kunich]

"Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote in message
news:slrng4pnl3.5i0.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
> On 2008-06-09, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> [...]
>> /any/ material that plastically deforms is ductile to some degree.
>> the question is, "how much". to be clear, the o.p. is describing low
>> ductility, not brittleness.
>
> What's the difference between low ductility and brittleness?

It means that beam can beam.

[jim beam]

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-06-09, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> [...]
>> /any/ material that plastically deforms is ductile to some degree.
>> the question is, "how much". to be clear, the o.p. is describing low
>> ductility, not brittleness.
>
> What's the difference between low ductility and brittleness?

energy absorption on fracture for one. it's all about the propagation
mechanism. but you're on the right track that the two are related.

[jim beam]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article <slrng4pnjh.5i0.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
> Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
>
>> On 2008-06-08, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> [...]
>>> Elastic modulus is a 2-tensor of dimension 3.
>>> 9 components.
>>> The diagonal components give deformation normal to
>>> a coordinate plane given force applied normal to
>>> the coordinate planes.
>>> The six off diagonal components give shear deformation
>>> for force applied parallel to coordinate planes.
>>> The 9 components could all be different from each other.
>> So for a lump of steel, am I right in thinking the tensor looks like
>> this:
>>
>> E 0 0
>> 0 E 0
>> 0 0 E
>>
>> where E is about 200GPa.
>>
>> But for CF or something anisotropic, I would have different values all
>> over the place.
>>
>> There don't seem to be any "shear components" in my matrix for steel,
>> but I don't really understand that: coordinate planes are usually
>> orthogonal, which means force normal to one plane is parallel to the
>> other two. So I don't see how you can divide forces into two sets of
>> those normal to coordinate planes and those parallel to them.
>
> Epoxy resin and carbon fiber lay ups have anisotropic elastic properties,
> as do various crystals.
>
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=90_ORVHeNkIC&pg=PT237&lpg=PT237&dq=anisotropic+crystal+%22elastic+modulus%22&source=web&ots=Zg1nRkq41y&sig=39g5dHxh5jGudvEd3_N-aug5sFc&hl=en>
>

so? that doesn't address his question in the slightest. perhaps you
shouldn't try to bull**** outside your area of expertise?

ah, but i remember now, you're the guy that thinks anodizing crack
orientation has no bearing on fatigue initiation! now your confusion
becomes clear!