HELP: Where To Put Spare Tire

[Maple Tree]

Hello,

I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.

Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
above the rear tire ?

I am wide open to suggestions.

Thank you

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:04:55 -0400, "Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
>tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
>Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
>it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
>above the rear tire ?

Put it the same place you keep your spare saddle, seatpost, chain and
brake pads.

[BobT]

"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:s4-dnUM0jb_tUdfVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
> seen it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back
> Stays above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>
> Thank you
>
I'll take the bait and assume this is a serious question and not a troll:

Many options: larger saddle bag, frame wedge bag, fold and strap under
saddle and bag, jersey pocket, small backpack, handlebar bag, etc.

Buy why? You have a bike with a retail price of nearly $4,000 will all kinds
of compromises to make it extremely light for full out racing. It you want
to keep with the philosophy of your bike's design (carbon fiber,
non-standard seat post, ultra-light wheels, ultra-light racing tires etc.
get rid of the tubes, carry only a patch kit, a single CO2 cartridge, and a
minimalist tool kit (or maybe no tools).

BobT

[!Jones]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:04:55 -0400, in rec.bicycles.tech "Maple Tree"
<none@none.com> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
>tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
>Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
>it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
>above the rear tire ?
>
>I am wide open to suggestions.
>
>Thank you

I keep mine warm, moist, and out of the sun.

Sorry... that's flippant. Strap it on someplace, I guess. Actually,
I tend to carry lots of stuff. I use a bicycle in place of a car, so
I can really relate to your question. I'd put it in with my textbooks
and week's worth of graded papers... and change of clothes... and the
quart of something or other my wife asked me to return as I went by
the store on my way... and my swim suit & towel for the 'Y'... and
spare shoes... etc.

You have to triage what you carry.

Did you ever read "The Things They Carried" by Tim O'Brian? I
*highly* recommend it!!!

Jones

[A R:nen]

"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> writes:

> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders.

Around the waist as per UCI regulations for Masters Fatties.

[Bob Schwartz]

I carry a single tube and a patch kit.
For tire repair I carry a section of
tubular casing and a hunk of... duct
tape. I've never run over anything that
damaged a tire beyond booting with one
of those two.

If you have seen fellow riders break
tires, ask them what kind they are
riding. Don't buy those tires. Tires
shouldn't break.

Bob Schwartz

[Tim McNamara]

In article <s4-dnUM0jb_tUdfVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two
> spare tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I
> have seen it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to
> the back Stays above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.

My suggestion is to get a couple of Park emergency tire boots instead.
If you start hauling around replacements for everything that might
break, you'll either need a follow car or a trailer. In 40 years of
riding bikes, I've never not been able to get home due to a tire casing
failure. I've had to boot a few with a dollar bill, PowerBar wrapper or
a Park boot.

If you really want to carry lots of stuff, get a saddlebag that's big
enough:

http://www.velo-orange.com/saddlebag.html

http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bags_and_racks#product=20-125

http://www.wallbike.com/carradice/carradicesaddlebags.html

http://www.wallbike.com/berthoud/saddlebag.html

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Jun 7, 12:04*pm, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. *I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. *Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>
> Thank you

Dear M,

I see a lot of replies about how you don't need a spare tire, just a
tire boot, which should handle any problem.

A boot can fix some things, but . . .

I carry a spare Kevlar-bead tire rolled up in my seat bag (the four
spare tubes are in my frame triangle bag).

I was delighted to have that spare tire handy when my rear tire crept
off the rim because I dragged my rear brake at low speed down a long
hill:

http://i18.tinypic.com/4t9hswg.jpg

I had stopped and was reaching for the presta valve when the tire blew
and the Slime decorated my leg. The friend I was waiting for arrived a
minute later and took the picture.

Here are the blown-out tire and tube, with a loop of tube stuck
between the destroyed casing and the exposed Kevlar bead:

http://i19.tinypic.com/53r4dp0.jpg

The spoke just propped things up for the picture. I doubt that a boot
would fixed things, so the spare tire was nice to have when I was two
miles from the nearest shade on a hot summer day.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jun 7, 11:04*am, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. *I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. *Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>

Ignore all these insensitive people who don't
understand the needs of serious Madone riders
such as yourself.

You can carry a folded spare tire under the seat bag
or in the second bottle cage if you don't have two
bottles. Lots of people don't get the folding trick.
You can fold it so as to both place the glued sides
against each other and make a nice squared-off
bundle. It's easier to show than do, so here is a
picture:
http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbt/tirefold.jpg
This is an old cyclocross tire, a road tire would fold
up smaller.

Then you use a toe strap to secure it under the
seat bag or in the bottle cage. Of course, for
maximum style, use a leather toe strap. Nylon
ones are gauche.

Ben

P.S. You ride sewups, right? And have toe straps?

[Michael Press]

In article <s4-dnUM0jb_tUdfVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.

Carry some thin, high tensile strength material for a tire boot;
such as a dollar bill or some of that envelope material that
does not tear. Carry a cellular telephone and store the taxi
service telephone numbers. Leave the tire at home.

Or stuff a folding tire in the seat rails.

--
Michael Press

[Maple Tree]

"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:s4-dnUM0jb_tUdfVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
> seen it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back
> Stays above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>
> Thank you


If I was to attach the tire to the back of my downtube under the saddle,
what would be the best way to keep it in place. I wouldn't want to use
ductape, I am not sure how to keep it in place to ensure it does not fall
off or come loose.

Thanks

[andresmuro@aol.com]

On Jun 7, 12:04 pm, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>
> Thank you

If it is a Kevlar bead tire, make an 8 with it. Slide one of your arms
into one of the loops, pass the tire behind your back and then slide
the other arm through the other loop. You will look like Pancho Villa,
or a hip oldie cyclist. Otherwise, do that with your spare tubes, and
put the tire inside your saddle bag. You really don't need to carry
spare tires. Just carry dollar bills that you can use to make a boot
if the tire breaks. For major disasters you need a cell phone and a
relative or good friend with a car.

Andres

[BrandyCycles@gmail.com]

On Jun 7, 2:04 pm, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>
> Thank you

Wear it on your person like the racers did in the '30s and '40s.
'Course they were carrying tublars.

[alanstew@sbcglobal.net]

Maple,
You could wear two of them like bandoliers, see this photo for
inspiration:
http://www.emersonkent.com/history_notes/pancho_villa.htm

And when one of your riding mates askes for a patch, you know what to
tell them right?
"I don't have to give you no stinking patches...."
ABS

[mike.a.schwab@gmail.com]

On Jun 7, 1:04 pm, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>
> Thank you

First, you need to twist the tire into a triple loop. Grab the tire
on opposite sides with both hands and twist into a figure 8. Push the
crossover closer to one side and twist again and the tire should curl
up into a small triple coil. Pull over the nose of the seat then over
the back. It is now around the seat post over the top tube and seat
stays. Using a small bungy cord, on the non-chainring side pull down
to the backside of the front derailer, carefull avoiding interfereing
with its use. Attaching bungy cord to down tube could result in
cables cutting the bungy cord, using the chain stay could pull tire
into wheel.

[William R. Mattil]

Maple Tree wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>


Hire a Domestique and make him carry your extra crap.

Bill

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:s4-dnUM0jb_tUdfVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Hello,
|
| I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
| tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
|
| Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
seen
| it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
| above the rear tire ?
|
| I am wide open to suggestions.
|
| Thank you

Get the absolute lightest, thinnest tire you can find for a spare, something
that folds up really flat (you can generally see the differences pretty
easily at the shop), and you can attach it underneath your seatbag using
very thin bungee cords or toe straps.

But do you really need to carry a spare tire? If I were doing a
cross-country ride, sure I would, because there might be times I'd be miles
and miles from a shop or civilization in general. But the reality is that I
ride about 6k miles/year, have done so for the past umpteen years, and get
maybe one flat every 3k miles or so and haven't destroyed a tire beyond its
ability to get me back home in... well, don't recall if I ever have, at
least not in my post-tubular days. Nor do I recall anyone in the rides I've
been on having to use a spare tire (or get sagged back).

For most serious gashes, you can tear off a piece of handlebar tape, or the
oft-suggested dollar bill or powerbar wrapper. And if that doesn't work,
there's always the cell phone.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Paul G.]

On Jun 7, 11:04 am, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>
> Thank you

I carry a spare tube, a home made patch kit, and a Swiss Army knife in
the back pockets of my jersey. I also carry a piece of sewup casing
for a boot, as I have also gotten an occasional nail or other object
that ruined my tire. The Tyvek boot solution sounds like a very good
idea though, as well as the suggestion to get it from a mailing
envelope.

The spare tube is for cases where the cause of the puncture is not
obvious, or in case the tube is severely damaged as in the case of a
nail. If I know where the hole is I'll often just do the minimum
amount of work to get at that section of the tube, but a patch on it
and be back in business.

The post about exploding tires from braking was interesting. That's
never happened to me. However, my philosophy is that brakes are for
stopping at the end of the ride.

And yes, if you must carry a spare tire, it goes around your waist,
but best to try the andouillette diet: eat as much as you want, and
anything you want, as long as it's andouillette.
-Paul

[Donald Munro]

Maple Tree wrote:
>>I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
>>tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>>
>>Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
>>seen it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back
>>Stays above the rear tire ?

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Put it the same place you keep your spare saddle, seatpost, chain and
> brake pads.

But what happens if his full carbon fibre frame breaks ?

[Fred Fredburger]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:04:55 -0400, "Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
>> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>>
>> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
>> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
>> above the rear tire ?
>
> Put it the same place you keep your spare saddle, seatpost, chain and
> brake pads.

Don't forget to bring a spare rider. Just in case you get tired.

[landotter]

On Jun 7, 2:11*pm, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Maple Tree wrote:
> >>I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. *I keep two spare
> >>tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> >>Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
> >>seen it happen to fellow riders. *Maybe I can strap one on to the back
> >>Stays above the rear tire ?
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > Put it the same place you keep your spare saddle, seatpost, chain and
> > brake pads.
>
> But what happens if his full carbon fibre frame breaks ?

That's what the baling wire tucked inside the post is for.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:50:34 -0500, "BobT"
<RobertLeeTaylorCUT@THISSuddenLink.net> wrote:

>
>"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
>news:s4-dnUM0jb_tUdfVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
>> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>>
>> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
>> seen it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back
>> Stays above the rear tire ?
>>
>> I am wide open to suggestions.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>I'll take the bait and assume this is a serious question and not a troll:
>
>Many options: larger saddle bag, frame wedge bag, fold and strap under
>saddle and bag, jersey pocket, small backpack, handlebar bag, etc.
>
>Buy why? You have a bike with a retail price of nearly $4,000 will all kinds
>of compromises to make it extremely light for full out racing. It you want
>to keep with the philosophy of your bike's design (carbon fiber,
>non-standard seat post, ultra-light wheels, ultra-light racing tires etc.
>get rid of the tubes, carry only a patch kit, a single CO2 cartridge, and a
>minimalist tool kit (or maybe no tools).

Not quite. Typically, serious racers have a pump, a couple tire irons
and a couple tubes for long training rides. Little or no tools.

[Maple Tree]

"BobT" <RobertLeeTaylorCUT@THISSuddenLink.net> wrote in message
news:484ae688$0$4054$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net. ..
>
> "Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
> news:s4-dnUM0jb_tUdfVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
>> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>>
>> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
>> seen it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back
>> Stays above the rear tire ?
>>
>> I am wide open to suggestions.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
> I'll take the bait and assume this is a serious question and not a troll:

It is :)

> Many options: larger saddle bag, frame wedge bag, fold and strap under
> saddle and bag, jersey pocket, small backpack, handlebar bag, etc.

Hi, I considered some of these, I hadn't considered under the saddle, I
don't think it would work.

> Buy why? You have a bike with a retail price of nearly $4,000 will all
> kinds of compromises to make it extremely light for full out racing. It
> you want to keep with the philosophy of your bike's design (carbon fiber,
> non-standard seat post, ultra-light wheels, ultra-light racing tires etc.
> get rid of the tubes, carry only a patch kit, a single CO2 cartridge, and
> a minimalist tool kit (or maybe no tools).

I am not a racer, I am a club rider. Ultra-light doesn't work for me, to
many flats and the wheels flex, so I have to use heavier components, I
weight 195 lbs, but I am not fat :) ummm....not that fat :)

I saw one of my club friends strap a tire to the triangle above the rear
tire, but it was a haphazard set up. Just thought there might be a better
way, without adding any extra bags onto the bike.

Thanks

>
> BobT
>
>

[Bob Schwartz]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:50:34 -0500, "BobT"
> <RobertLeeTaylorCUT@THISSuddenLink.net> wrote:
>> Buy why? You have a bike with a retail price of nearly $4,000 will all kinds
>> of compromises to make it extremely light for full out racing. It you want
>> to keep with the philosophy of your bike's design (carbon fiber,
>> non-standard seat post, ultra-light wheels, ultra-light racing tires etc.
>> get rid of the tubes, carry only a patch kit, a single CO2 cartridge, and a
>> minimalist tool kit (or maybe no tools).
>
> Not quite. Typically, serious racers have a pump, a couple tire irons
> and a couple tubes for long training rides. Little or no tools.

If you are riding with a group someone will have a pump. Let
some other sucker weigh down their bike with a pump while
you groove on the ultra light weight of your Madone.

If you are riding by yourself your tool kit should be a cell
phone so you can call your girlfriend to come get you.

If you people can't be serious don't even bother responding.

Bob Schwartz

[Howard Kveck]

In article <ysrxej79roeg.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>,
oronkain@ling.helsinki.fi (A R:nen) wrote:

> "Maple Tree" <none@none.com> writes:
>
> > Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
> > it happen to fellow riders.
>
> Around the waist as per UCI regulations for Masters Fatties.

Those regs also spec that MFs must wear their bibs outside the shirt.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Donald Munro]

Maple Tree writes:
>> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
>> seen it happen to fellow riders.

A R:nen wrote:
> Around the waist as per UCI regulations for Masters Fatties.

It could also go in their Camelback.

[Maple Tree]

"Bob Schwartz" <bob.schwartz@sbcREMOVE.global.net> wrote in message
news:ncC2k.8049$Ri.3778@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
>I carry a single tube and a patch kit.
> For tire repair I carry a section of
> tubular casing and a hunk of... duct
> tape. I've never run over anything that
> damaged a tire beyond booting with one
> of those two.
>
> If you have seen fellow riders break
> tires, ask them what kind they are
> riding. Don't buy those tires. Tires
> shouldn't break.
>
> Bob Schwartz

Not sure, but it does happen from time to time

[Tim McNamara]

In article <ncC2k.8049$Ri.3778@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com>,
Bob Schwartz <bob.schwartz@sbcREMOVE.global.net> wrote:

> I carry a single tube and a patch kit. For tire repair I carry a
> section of tubular casing and a hunk of... duct tape. I've never run
> over anything that damaged a tire beyond booting with one of those
> two.
>
> If you have seen fellow riders break tires, ask them what kind they
> are riding. Don't buy those tires. Tires shouldn't break.

Nice summary, Bob.

[Howard Kveck]

In article <ncC2k.8049$Ri.3778@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com>,
Bob Schwartz <bob.schwartz@sbcREMOVE.global.net> wrote:

> I carry a single tube and a patch kit.
> For tire repair I carry a section of
> tubular casing and a hunk of... duct
> tape. I've never run over anything that
> damaged a tire beyond booting with one
> of those two.

The tubular casing works great as a boot but I've also used a folded dollar bill.
The duct tape idea is a good one too.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Maple Tree]

"Bob Schwartz" <bob.schwartz@sbcREMOVE.global.net> wrote in message
news:rkC2k.8051$Ri.6827@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:50:34 -0500, "BobT"
>> <RobertLeeTaylorCUT@THISSuddenLink.net> wrote:
>>> Buy why? You have a bike with a retail price of nearly $4,000 will all
>>> kinds of compromises to make it extremely light for full out racing. It
>>> you want to keep with the philosophy of your bike's design (carbon
>>> fiber, non-standard seat post, ultra-light wheels, ultra-light racing
>>> tires etc. get rid of the tubes, carry only a patch kit, a single CO2
>>> cartridge, and a minimalist tool kit (or maybe no tools).
>>
>> Not quite. Typically, serious racers have a pump, a couple tire irons
>> and a couple tubes for long training rides. Little or no tools.
>
> If you are riding with a group someone will have a pump. Let
> some other sucker weigh down their bike with a pump while
> you groove on the ultra light weight of your Madone.
>
> If you are riding by yourself your tool kit should be a cell
> phone so you can call your girlfriend to come get you.
>
> If you people can't be serious don't even bother responding.
>
> Bob Schwartz

Unfortunately, there is a lot of junvenile minds on this ng :)

[Paul M. Hobson]

Maple Tree wrote:

> I saw one of my club friends strap a tire to the triangle above the rear
> tire, but it was a haphazard set up. Just thought there might be a better
> way, without adding any extra bags onto the bike.

Seems like you have your answer then.

--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

[BobT]

"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:IuCdnXLLY4lLb9fVnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@giganews.com ...

<snip>

> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike.

<snip, snip>

> I am not a racer, I am a club rider. Ultra-light doesn't work for me ...

The combination of these two statements above leaves me confused.

Sophisticated, yet not too refined?
Optimal balance of lateral stiffness and vertical compliance?
Bold, yet not too assertive?
Utilizes the inherent vibration damping qualities of OCLV to deliver just
the right amount of road feedback to keep you in-tune with the road?

BobT

[landotter]

On Jun 7, 3:51*pm, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> "Bob Schwartz" <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVE.global.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ncC2k.8049$Ri.3778@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
> >I carry a single tube and a patch kit.
> > For tire repair I carry a section of
> > tubular casing and a hunk of... duct
> > tape. I've never run over anything that
> > damaged a tire beyond booting with one
> > of those two.
>
> > If you have seen fellow riders break
> > tires, ask them what kind they are
> > riding. Don't buy those tires. Tires
> > shouldn't break.
>
> > Bob Schwartz
>
> Not sure, but it does happen from time to time

Don't buy the kind that break. D'oh! If your brake pads are adjusted
to not contact the sidewall--carrying a spare clincher on a training
ride is pure paranoia.

[!Jones]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:02:07 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

>If you really want to carry lots of stuff, get a saddlebag that's big
>enough:

http://seguro.coppel.com/coppel/info_muebles.php?codigo=516783

I can carry *three* extra parts for *everything*, my repair stand, and
all of my tools... and my electric generator and air compressor to
boot!

And a parachute in case I'm in a high-rise building...

And SCUBA gear in case I fall into the water...

Jones... well prepared for *anything*!

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:02:07 -0500, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> I've had to boot a few with a dollar bill, PowerBar wrapper or
>a Park boot.

Yeah, once for me I think. And once for a friend with a money bill.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:23:45 -0700 (PDT), carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>Here are the blown-out tire and tube, with a loop of tube stuck
>between the destroyed casing and the exposed Kevlar bead:
>
> http://i19.tinypic.com/53r4dp0.jpg

Dude,

If I show you a picture of a pair of handelbars damaged on a ride,
does that mean you'll carry a spare set of bars

Cheers

[SMS]

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Jun 7, 12:04 pm, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
>> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>>
>> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have seen
>> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
>> above the rear tire ?
>>
>> I am wide open to suggestions.
>>
>> Thank you
>
> Dear M,
>
> I see a lot of replies about how you don't need a spare tire, just a
> tire boot, which should handle any problem.
>
> A boot can fix some things, but . . .
>
> I carry a spare Kevlar-bead tire rolled up in my seat bag (the four
> spare tubes are in my frame triangle bag).
>
> I was delighted to have that spare tire handy when my rear tire crept
> off the rim because I dragged my rear brake at low speed down a long
> hill:
>
> http://i18.tinypic.com/4t9hswg.jpg

Yuck.

Yeah, there's a lot of roads around here where you have to be really
careful about some of the long, steep descents to not blow out your tire.

Sometimes I wish for a disc brake on a road bike. My tandem has a rear
drum drag brake, but it's really too heavy for a road bike.

REI had one road bike with disc brakes, but it seems to have been
discountinued,
"http://web.archive.org/web/20070427113144/http://www.rei.com/product/744808"

[Donald Munro]

Fred Fredburger wrote:
> Don't forget to bring a spare rider. Just in case you get tired.

What about a team car. I'm told the Rock Racing models come with used
models inside.

[carlfogel@comcast.net]

On Jun 7, 4:02*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:23:45 -0700 (PDT), carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >Here are the blown-out tire and tube, with a loop of tube stuck
> >between the destroyed casing and the exposed Kevlar bead:
>
> >http://i19.tinypic.com/53r4dp0.jpg
>
> Dude,
>
> If I show you a picture of a pair of handlebars damaged on a ride,
> does that mean you'll carry a spare set of bars
>
> Cheers

Dear John,

Nope.

I can easily replace a ruined tire and tube in a few minutes by the
side of the road with a pump and my bare hands.

I fix flats so often that I carry four spare tubes and a small Park
glueless patch kit. I've only had to use the patch kit once, but it
was worth having because it saved me a six mile walk.

I've used my spare tire several times. It's easy to use.

Replacing a handlebar with brakes and shifters would be much more
trouble than fixing a flat tire.

Besides, the spare tire rolls up and fits nicely in the seat bag just
visible on the upper right:

http://i18.tinypic.com/4t9hswg.jpg

Where do you plan to carry a spare handlebar?

:-)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:30:13 -0700 (PDT), carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>I fix flats so often that I carry four spare tubes and a small Park
>glueless patch kit.

That sucks.

[Maple Tree]

<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:99e2f84e-bb33-4c10-a55f-34e589cb0615@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 7, 11:04 am, "Maple Tree" <n...@none.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am riding a TREK Madone 5.2, full carbon fibre bike. I keep two spare
> tubes and tools inside my saddle bag, it is now full.
>
> Where on my bike should I keep a spare tire in case one breaks, I have
> seen
> it happen to fellow riders. Maybe I can strap one on to the back Stays
> above the rear tire ?
>
> I am wide open to suggestions.
>

Ignore all these insensitive people who don't
understand the needs of serious Madone riders
such as yourself.

You can carry a folded spare tire under the seat bag
or in the second bottle cage if you don't have two
bottles. Lots of people don't get the folding trick.
You can fold it so as to both place the glued sides
against each other and make a nice squared-off
bundle. It's easier to show than do, so here is a
picture:
http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbt/tirefold.jpg
This is an old cyclocross tire, a road tire would fold
up smaller.

Then you use a toe strap to secure it under the
seat bag or in the bottle cage. Of course, for
maximum style, use a leather toe strap. Nylon
ones are gauche.

Ben

P.S. You ride sewups, right? And have toe straps?

clipless, I started cycling in 1990, toe straps were on their way out then.
I will have to take a look at my saddle and see if I can tuck a spare tire
under it. I hadn't considered that.

[Mark]

Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <ncC2k.8049$Ri.3778@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com>,
> Bob Schwartz <bob.schwartz@sbcREMOVE.global.net> wrote:
>
>> I carry a single tube and a patch kit.
>> For tire repair I carry a section of
>> tubular casing and a hunk of... duct
>> tape. I've never run over anything that
>> damaged a tire beyond booting with one
>> of those two.
>
> The tubular casing works great as a boot but I've also used a folded dollar bill.
> The duct tape idea is a good one too.

I've used the dollar successfully /and/ not-so-successfully. On my most
recent try, the tube punched through four layers, with only about a
3-5mm slit in the tire casing. I wonder if the latest currency is using
more fragile paper.

Clif bar wrappers, however, are nearly indestructible. I keep an
/empty/ one in my seat bag at all times.

Mark J.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:29:10 -0700, Howard Kveck
<YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:

>In article <ncC2k.8049$Ri.3778@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com>,
> Bob Schwartz <bob.schwartz@sbcREMOVE.global.net> wrote:
>
>> I carry a single tube and a patch kit.
>> For tire repair I carry a section of
>> tubular casing and a hunk of... duct
>> tape. I've never run over anything that
>> damaged a tire beyond booting with one
>> of those two.
>
> The tubular casing works great as a boot but I've also used a folded dollar bill.
>The duct tape idea is a good one too.

A piece of tyvek, such as from an express mail shipping pouch or race
number is good too.

[Tom Kunich]

"Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:vY2dnTen7v7Oh9bVnZ2dnUVZ_t_inZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
> Unfortunately, there is a lot of junvenile minds on this ng :)

Your question is a bit juvenile don't you think? You can't figure out where
to put a spare tire on your bicycle? I've been back riding for 25 years and
I've needed a tire once. And I was within a block of a bike shop about to
open. And I put in more than 5,000 miles a year.

If you are that nervous about a spare tire I would have thought that you'd
already have figured out a couple of ways: a) you carry it in your center
back pocket like the sewup people do. b) You tape it between the seat rails
and above the seat pack. c) You put it inside a dummy water bottle in the
second water bottle mount. Is this rocket science?

[Bill Sornson]

Maple Tree wrote:

> Unfortunately, there is a lot of junvenile minds on this ng :)

We know you are but what are we?!?

:-P

[Ben C]

On 2008-06-08, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:
> "Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
> news:vY2dnTen7v7Oh9bVnZ2dnUVZ_t_inZ2d@giganews.com ...
>>
>> Unfortunately, there is a lot of junvenile minds on this ng :)
>
> Your question is a bit juvenile don't you think? You can't figure out where
> to put a spare tire on your bicycle? I've been back riding for 25 years and
> I've needed a tire once. And I was within a block of a bike shop about to
> open. And I put in more than 5,000 miles a year.
>
> If you are that nervous about a spare tire I would have thought that you'd
> already have figured out a couple of ways: a) you carry it in your center
> back pocket like the sewup people do. b) You tape it between the seat rails
> and above the seat pack. c) You put it inside a dummy water bottle in the
> second water bottle mount. Is this rocket science?

If you're going on a ride long enough to consider a spare tyre you
probably need two bottles of water.

[Robert Chung]

On Jun 7, 5:19 pm, Mark <mandmljNOS...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:

> I've used the dollar successfully /and/ not-so-successfully. On my most
> recent try, the tube punched through four layers, with only about a
> 3-5mm slit in the tire casing. I wonder if the latest currency is using
> more fragile paper.

Haven't you been paying attention? The dollar is weak compared to
other currencies.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:28:39 -0700 (PDT), Robert Chung
<rechung@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 7, 5:19 pm, Mark <mandmljNOS...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I've used the dollar successfully /and/ not-so-successfully. On my most
>> recent try, the tube punched through four layers, with only about a
>> 3-5mm slit in the tire casing. I wonder if the latest currency is using
>> more fragile paper.
>
>Haven't you been paying attention? The dollar is weak compared to
>other currencies.

POTM

[Donald Munro]

Robert Chung wrote:
> Haven't you been paying attention? The dollar is weak compared to other
> currencies.

You need to use $1.50 where you would use 1 Euro. Good luck with getting
cents to stick, perhaps you better wait until it becomes $2.00.

[Paul M. Hobson]

SMS wrote:
> Yeah, there's a lot of roads around here where you have to be really
> careful about some of the long, steep descents to not blow out your tire.
>
> Sometimes I wish for a disc brake on a road bike. My tandem has a rear
> drum drag brake, but it's really too heavy for a road bike.
>
> REI had one road bike with disc brakes, but it seems to have been
> discountinued,
> "http://web.archive.org/web/20070427113144/http://www.rei.com/product/744808"

http://www.salsacycles.com/laCruz08.html

--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

[Tom Kunich]

<alanstew@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:db64df52-879e-4c76-97fc-c66dc7d2ee88@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> And when one of your riding mates askes for a patch, you know what to
> tell them right?
> "I don't have to give you no stinking patches...."

3 points.

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jun 7, 8:24*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> But do you really need to carry a spare tire? If I were doing a
> cross-country ride, sure I would, because there might be times I'd be miles
> and miles from a shop or civilization in general. But the reality is that I
> ride about 6k miles/year, have done so for the past umpteen years, and get
> maybe one flat every 3k miles or so and haven't destroyed a tire beyond its
> ability to get me back home in... well, don't recall if I ever have, at
> least not in my post-tubular days. *Nor do I recall anyone in the rides I've
> been on having to use a spare tire (or get sagged back).
>
> For most serious gashes, you can tear off a piece of handlebar tape, or the
> oft-suggested dollar bill or powerbar wrapper. And if that doesn't work,
> there's always the cell phone.
>

http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbt/badflat.jpg

This is a historical re-enactment, but without the
fake blurry effects in a bad History Channel documentary.
In reality, I took the screw out, replaced the tube, used
a piece of Tyvek to boot the holes in the tire, and rode
home. At home, I put the screw back in to take
the photo for documentary purposes. It was only a
couple of miles from home and I could have ridden
more. The most serious issue in all of this was that
I was going downhill and the tire went flat really fast.
You can't see it in this picture, but there is actually
cosmetic damage to the rim from the screw.

Tyvek rules, BTW. Free in any express mail envelope.

Ben

[Andrew Price]

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 09:57:24 +0200, Donald Munro
<fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Haven't you been paying attention? The dollar is weak compared to other
>> currencies.
>
>You need to use $1.50 where you would use 1 Euro.

Especially as 1 euro is a coin, not a bank note ...

[Tom Kunich]

<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:78356569-acde-47fc-9cf2-3ef7f7c3512c@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbt/badflat.jpg

I had one that went straight in and rammed a hole through rim half-way
between two spoke holes. It went in so deeply and tightly that I had to get
a screwdriver from someone in the group and unscrew it to get it out.

10 years later we were sitting around in an outdoor coffee shop and started
talking about that and there was a guy there who I'd given the wheels to who
was still using it with the extra spoke hole. They were mounted on the bike
he was riding!

[Robert Chung]

On Jun 8, 1:10 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:

> http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbt/badflat.jpg

You were screwed.

[Brian Huntley]

On Jun 8, 4:10 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:

> You can't see it in this picture, but there is actually
> cosmetic damage to the rim from the screw.

I think you just solved a mystery for me. I had an odd flat last
winter that turned out to be caused by a rough spot on the inside of
the rim, between two spoke holes. I was baffled as to how I got the
rough spot in the first place.

Seeing that screw reminded me that I'd had a similar flat in Buffalo
NY a few years ago. It probably scratched the rim then, possibly under
the rim strip - and that scratch slowly worked its way through and
wore at the tube.

I dremmelled it smooth this time.

[Tom Kunich]

"Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote in message
news:slrng4n8hl.61o.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
> On 2008-06-08, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:
>> "Maple Tree" <none@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:vY2dnTen7v7Oh9bVnZ2dnUVZ_t_inZ2d@giganews.com ...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, there is a lot of junvenile minds on this ng :)
>>
>> Your question is a bit juvenile don't you think? You can't figure out
>> where
>> to put a spare tire on your bicycle? I've been back riding for 25 years
>> and
>> I've needed a tire once. And I was within a block of a bike shop about to
>> open. And I put in more than 5,000 miles a year.
>>
>> If you are that nervous about a spare tire I would have thought that
>> you'd
>> already have figured out a couple of ways: a) you carry it in your center
>> back pocket like the sewup people do. b) You tape it between the seat
>> rails
>> and above the seat pack. c) You put it inside a dummy water bottle in the
>> second water bottle mount. Is this rocket science?
>
> If you're going on a ride long enough to consider a spare tyre you
> probably need two bottles of water.

How long is a ride long enough to consider a spare tire?

[Ben C]

On 2008-06-08, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:
> "Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote in message
> news:slrng4n8hl.61o.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
>> On 2008-06-08, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:
[...]
>> If you're going on a ride long enough to consider a spare tyre you
>> probably need two bottles of water.
>
> How long is a ride long enough to consider a spare tire?

A long tour lasting a few weeks and going through the middle of nowhere.
I never carry one.

Two bottles of water however is advised for distances >= 50km in warm
weather.

[Todd Tannenbaum]

Hello, Tom Kunich!
You wrote:
>
> How long is a ride long enough to consider a spare tire?
>

First off, typically you just need a spare inner tube, not a
spare tire. This is handy since carrying a spare tube is much
more conveinent than a spare tire. It is really, really rare
you'll ever get a puncture that requres a new tire. Some really
paranoid folks carry a strip of duct tape to make an emergency
tire repair (just in case).

IMO, it isn't so much the milage vs where you will be riding. I
usually carry a spare tube + pump + levers + patch kit when I am
biking out into the country, where if I get a flat I'd have to
wait a really long time for a friend to come pick me up. In my
area, typically this means a ride of ~40+ miles or so.

On the other hand, if I am biking around the city, I usually
don't bother with a spare since I can always hop a bus or grab a
ride with minimal waiting.
--
Remove NO SPAM to reply via email
Posted via a Palm Treo 680

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[andresmuro@aol.com]

On Jun 8, 7:37 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
>
> news:78356569-acde-47fc-9cf2-3ef7f7c3512c@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbt/badflat.jpg
>
> I had one that went straight in and rammed a hole through rim half-way
> between two spoke holes. It went in so deeply and tightly that I had to get
> a screwdriver from someone in the group and unscrew it to get it out.
>
> 10 years later we were sitting around in an outdoor coffee shop and started
> talking about that and there was a guy there who I'd given the wheels to who
> was still using it with the extra spoke hole. They were mounted on the bike
> he was riding!

I had a nail going through the tire, tube and rim tape into the spoke
hole. I kept chaning tubes and having blowouts. I couldn't figure out
why until I saw the hole in the rim tape. When I went home and was
patching the tubes I noticed that one was punctured in two opposite
sides. Thats when I realized that the nail had gone through the tire,
tube and rim tape.

[A R:nen]

Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> writes:
> On 2008-06-08, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:

> > How long is a ride long enough to consider a spare tire?

> A long tour lasting a few weeks and going through the middle of nowhere.

....if you can't spare a few days or you are so deep in the middle of
nowhere that you can't rely on the miracles of modern logistics.
Of course you also need to make arrangements if the tour is long
enough to need that extra rubber already from normal wear and tear.

[Paul G.]

On Jun 8, 1:19 pm, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2008-06-08, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:
>
> > "Ben C" <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote in message
> >news:slrng4n8hl.61o.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
> >> On 2008-06-08, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:
> [...]
> >> If you're going on a ride long enough to consider a spare tyre you
> >> probably need two bottles of water.
>
> > How long is a ride long enough to consider a spare tire?
>
> A long tour lasting a few weeks and going through the middle of nowhere.
> I never carry one.
>
> Two bottles of water however is advised for distances >= 50km in warm
> weather.

I've spent a couple of summers doing long tours, one in the US and one
in Western Europe. Never carried a spare tire. I just got replacements
at bike shops. Now though I carry a spare tire where ever I go. ;-)
I crossed Nevada and Utah on one of those tours. I carried a water
bag- I think it held a gallon. Two water bottles doesn't cut it in the
desert.
-Paul

[Tom Kunich]

"Todd Tannenbaum" <tannenba@csNO.SPAMwisc.edu> wrote in message
news:C471B15Byf@csNO.SPAMwisc.edu...
> Hello, Tom Kunich!
> You wrote:
>>
>> How long is a ride long enough to consider a spare tire?
>
> First off, typically you just need a spare inner tube, not a
> spare tire. This is handy since carrying a spare tube is much
> more conveinent than a spare tire. It is really, really rare
> you'll ever get a puncture that requres a new tire. Some really
> paranoid folks carry a strip of duct tape to make an emergency
> tire repair (just in case).

As I noted, I did have a flat that I couldn't fix without replacing the
tire. On a NEW bike with brand new well built wheels (test ridden about 100
miles already) I entered Palo Alto early in the morning on the way to Santa
Cruz. As I entered Palo Alto I had a rather noisy blowout. The tire somehow
lifted off of the rim and broke the bead as it did. Since the wheel had
already been ridden that 100 or so miles I have no idea what could have
caused it. And since it was a Continental tire it isn't likely to be the
tire's fault. I assume that the innertube was under one edge of the tire and
finally lifted it off though why that would happen on a cold morning without
any significant braking I couldn't say.

Luckily the time was such that after enjoying an early morning cup of coffee
in Palo Alto I was able to go to Palo Alto Bicycles. They didn't have
Continental tires in stock but they did have an Avocet 28 mm that fit
perfectly. The rest of the ride into Santa Cruz was punctuated by 12 flats!
And I couldn't find out what the hell was causing them. The ride home gave
me only 3 flats. After I took everything apart and looked carefully the
filler area of the rim had collapsed when the blowout occurred and left a
tiny sharp point that would puncture a microscopic hole through the base of
the filler valve which was why I couldn't find the danged thing. A second's
work with a file fixed it forever. The Avocent then gave me about 3500 miles
of service with no flats. What is significant is that I'm 6'4" and 200 lbs
and rarely get more than 1500 miles on a new tire.

But back to tires - I have had hideous damage to tires including 3" long
tears in the sidewall that I was able to seal sufficiently with a dollar
bill and an aluminum beer can from the side of the road and ride another 25
miles home. You can peal the top and bottom off of the aluminum can and have
a strong formable piece of perfect material for such a thing.