REI Transfer - competition? [Archive]

landotter

01-04-1970, 11:43 AM

On Jun 8, 12:19*pm, JG <j...@cox.net> wrote:
> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> college. *The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. *It's an upright
> commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires, v-
> brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack, shimano
> dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. *What other models
> should I be looking at?

Depends--the Transfer is near perfect and the price is right, but
bikes don't last long at college if they ain't locked right. If he's
committed to using a good lock right--put it on the short list along
with something like Jamis Commuter:

http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/bikes/08_bikes/08commuter3.html#

Internal gears are a must for anything that gets locked outside a lot.
Put a rust buster chain on it as well.

Now, if he's the sloppy type, and the bike's just gonna be a campus
scoot--get him a beach cruiser from Craigslist for $50 and a cable
lock--seriously, campus bikes get ripped off at a stupid high rate, no
reason to put a donation on the block.

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-04-1970, 11:43 AM

"JG" <jchg@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ba2d1fe8-ac49-4020-b7e3-6c865f5af01f@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
| I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
| college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
| commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires, v-
| brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack, shimano
| dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What other models
| should I be looking at?
|
| JG

For commuting bikes, I'm beginning to come around to the idea of disc
brakes. I thought they were silly at first; I was wrong. The big advantage
is that your brakes work, no matter how banged up your wheel is. Plus,
because the rim is designed to hold a tire in place rather than be a brake
surface as well, it can be made stronger for a given weight.

I'm selling boatloads of the Trek SU 2.0 for commuters and college kids. It
doesn't have a generator light, but inexpensive battery-operated lights with
long life & bright beams are pretty easy to find these days. Same for racks,
fenders & kickstands.
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/urban/sport_urban/su20/

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 11:43 AM

In article
<ba2d1fe8-ac49-4020-b7e3-6c865f5af01f@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
JG <jchg@cox.net> wrote:

> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
> commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires, v-
> brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack, shimano
> dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What other models
> should I be looking at?

A shop local to the university selling reconditioned
bicycles from the 70's and 80's and a good lock.
Rack and drop in pannier for lugging books.

--
Michael Press

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 11:43 AM

someone wrote:

> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
> commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires,
> v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack,
> Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What
> other models should I be looking at?

Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by now
and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice of
bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting to
class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle from
Goodwill and let him pay for it.

By the time most young men get to high school, they either know what
sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride. How
long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his mother do
so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people earn their
own money for such stuff?

I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee his
wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school graduation?
"Poor" kid!

Jobst Brandt

Ted Mittelstaedt

01-04-1970, 11:43 AM

"JG" <jchg@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ba2d1fe8-ac49-4020-b7e3-6c865f5af01f@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
> commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires, v-
> brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack, shimano
> dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What other models
> should I be looking at?
>

Get the cheapest thing you can find off craigslist. Often I see bikes
in the "free" section. The uglier the better. If it has streaks of surface
rust your home free. If your not handly with tools yourself, take it
to a bike shop and have them lube it and pull the nails out of the tires.

The secret to having a usable bike the entire time that your in college
is to have the ugliest bike in the bike rack.

10 to 1 it will be stolen 6 months after he gets there. Whereupon
you get another cheap beater bike and repeat the process.

Your doing him a disservice by saddling him with the responsibility
of keeping an eye on a $600 bike. He should be paying attention to
his schoolwork and not worrying about whether his bike will be there
when he comes out of class.

Ted

Paul M. Hobson

01-04-1970, 11:43 AM

JG wrote:
> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
> commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires, v-
> brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack, shimano
> dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What other models
> should I be looking at?

I think the bike is fine.

Since I don't know where he'll be, I'll say to get this for the frame
and front wheel:
http://www.onguardlock.com/lockviewer.php?type=chain&model=5016

and this for the rear wheel:
http://www.onguardlock.com/lockviewer.php?type=ulock&model=5013TC

Though in Atlanta, I've had no issues using this combo:
http://www.onguardlock.com/lockviewer.php?type=ulock&model=5015TC

--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

Andre Jute

01-04-1970, 11:43 AM

On Jun 8, 6:19 pm, JG <j...@cox.net> wrote:
> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
> commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires, v-
> brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack, shimano
> dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What other models
> should I be looking at?
>
> JG

Looks like a good deal of bike for the money. The spec is however
missing something crucial: a lock. Without a lock it is no more than a
cafe-commuter, defined as a bike you park right beside your pavement
cafe table and don't remove your eyes from for a moment for fear it
will be stolen. I don't understand why all commuter bikes don't come
fitted with AXA/Basta frame fit locks as you can see on my Trek here:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20Trek%20Navigator%20L700%20Smover.html
and also on my Gazelle on another page on the same site. Those are
locks that cannot be removed without destroying the frame. Of course,
the entire bike can be carried away for the thief to deal with the
lock at leisure, but no lock will permanently defeat a professional
bike thief. In any event, you can buy a chain with a loop at one end
and at the other a tongue that fits into a secondary lock on the frame
lock. You put the loop end through the front wheel, pull the chain
through the loop around the rim (this chain is encased in tough
plasticized canvas to protect the finish of the bike), thread the
chain around a pole and through the frame and plug the tongue end into
the frame lock. A single key then unlocks both locks; very convenient.
I have such a chain as well (not shown but a beautiful fashion item in
the de luxe Gazelle house execution which proved to be cheaper on a
promotional deal than in utilitarian AXA dress) but in fact don't use
it as the frame lock by itself, which I use religiously because it is
as quick as taking the key out of a car, is enough of a deterrent on
the streets of my village.

I take the view that it is a slack manufacturer who sells a "commuter"
bike without a permanently fixed frame lock on it.

Furthermore, quick releases for wheels and saddle on a commuter bike
are an invitation to thieves. Replace those immediately with spindles
done up with hex keys. A commuter bike doesn't need to have its saddle
reset once it is right, and should have thornproof tires so that it
doesn't pick up flats every other day.

***

By the way, referring to the discussion of how Jobst never had long
pants or shoes until he graduated college, and how he daily cycled a
hundred miles to school and college through snow and tornados and
deserts in his shorts with his big knobbly toes sticking out of the
pedal cage, and how come *your* kid is too soft to do the same, --
well, **** 'em, you're doing the right thing. Like Jobst, I don't hold
with mollycoddling kids (no such thing as a risk-free second, never
mind lifetime -- there's salmonella under your feet right now), but it
is a huge mistake to try and remake them in your own image, especially
in twee bull**** ways like riding a bike with derailleurs. If the kid
doesn't want to be a masochist, then why should he be? It's smart to
give him a chance instead to become a nerd who may in time know all
about internal hubs -- or a utility cyclists who doesn't care a hoot
about the mechanics as long as his bikes (there will eventually be
more than one, count on it) don't break down. The thing is to get him
on *a* bike that he will actually ride, not to decide the details of
the bike for him.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

Ed Pirrero

01-04-1970, 11:45 AM

On Jun 8, 5:39 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone wrote:
> > I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> > college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
> > commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires,
> > v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack,
> > Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What
> > other models should I be looking at?
>
> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by now
> and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice of
> bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting to
> class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle from
> Goodwill and let him pay for it.
>
> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know what
> sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride. How
> long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his mother do
> so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people earn their
> own money for such stuff?
>
> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee his
> wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school graduation?
> "Poor" kid!

It's too bad you didn't bother to use a shred of logic when you wrote
this post.

Nice emotional rant, however....

E.P.

SMS

01-04-1970, 11:45 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know what
> sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride. How
> long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his mother do
> so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people earn their
> own money for such stuff?

I guess it's possible that the individual in question did not grow up in
an area where he gained any bicycling experience, and now is off to a
college where cycling is how you get around. I was shocked when I had
someone visit me from NYC when I was about 10, and he didn't know how to
ride a bike.

But you do have a point. Most college age kids should be able to buy a
bicycle on their own, with their own money, though there is nothing
wrong with getting some advice from the parents.

My first college bicycle was a $55 ten speed from Lionel Play World.
When that got stolen, I bought a 3 speed Columbia from Woolco
(Woolworth's foray into discount department stores) for $45. I think
that it's a bad idea to be buying a $600 bicycle for campus use, no
matter who's paying for it.

You might like this article (it's also now a book):

"http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html"

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-04-1970, 11:45 AM

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:484c7ba4$0$17157$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
| someone wrote:
|
| > I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
| > college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an upright
| > commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears, 26' tires,
| > v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with a rack,
| > Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600. What
| > other models should I be looking at?
|
| Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by now
| and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice of
| bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting to
| class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle from
| Goodwill and let him pay for it.
|
| By the time most young men get to high school, they either know what
| sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride. How
| long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his mother do
| so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people earn their
| own money for such stuff?
|
| I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee his
| wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school graduation?
| "Poor" kid!
|
| Jobst Brandt

What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid who's off to
college. Could be that he's going to a school that's bicycle-friendly and
car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be that he's told his kid they can't
afford a car for him, that with college costing what it does, the deal is
that mom & dad pay for college but no car... he's going to make do with a
bike. Whatever the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly
nothing indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.

We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking for
something practical and a shop that's going to take care of things if
something goes wrong.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Pat

01-04-1970, 11:45 AM

> It's too bad you didn't bother to use a shred of logic when you wrote
> this post.
>
> Nice emotional rant, however....
>
> E.P.

Yeah, that was weird! Sounded like the OP hit a sore nerve in Jobst's own
family tree.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 11:46 AM

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

>>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
>>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
>>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
>>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
>>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
>>> What other models should I be looking at?

>> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
>> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
>> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
>> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
>> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.

>> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
>> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
>> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
>> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
>> earn their own money for such stuff?

>> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
>> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
>> graduation? "Poor" kid!

> What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
> who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
> bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
> that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
> college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
> college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
> the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
> indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.

> We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
> for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
> things if something goes wrong.

You might get a better understanding from:

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html

read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.

Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
mode of social conduct.

Jobst Brandt

SMS

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
>
> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
> mode of social conduct.

I was amazed and dismayed when my daughters middle school sent us
information on how to use the web check up on every aspect of their
school day, right down to monitoring what they choose for lunch.

Jesus, who has time to sit on-line and check on that kind of stuff, and
how warped is the parent that does have the time and uses this service.

Yet at the same time, the school is encouraging the parents to "let go,"
telling them that it's okay to drop their kid off a block away, or let
them walk to school by themselves, rather than causing massive traffic
jams and dropping them off within ten meters of the school entrance.
Also, telling them to not call their kid when the kid's away for a week
on a Yosemite trip.

The school was overwhelmed with students bicycling to school, as soon as
it opened (it's been open for only three years). They vastly
underestimated the number of students that would be permitted to bicycle
to school, and rushed to build a second secure bicycle parking area. So
there is hope for the world.

Camilo

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

On Jun 9, 5:40 am, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> >>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
> >>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
> >>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
> >>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
> >>> What other models should I be looking at?
> >> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
> >> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
> >> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
> >> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
> >> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.
> >> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
> >> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
> >> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
> >> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
> >> earn their own money for such stuff?
> >> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
> >> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
> >> graduation? "Poor" kid!
> > What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
> > who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
> > bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
> > that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
> > college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
> > college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
> > the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
> > indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.
> > We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
> > for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
> > things if something goes wrong.
>
> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
>
> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
> mode of social conduct.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Jobst - I didn't carefully read the entire site, but scanned parts of
it. I don't at all disagree that kids' lives are too controlled and
protected. Mea Culpa. I have two daughters, one a late teen, the
other in college. Both are great kids. Like my parents before me, I
don't think they had it as tough as me, I don't think they are as self
reliant as I was, etc. On the other hand, both are far more
successful academically than I was - one at an elite level, one at a
very good level for a college-bound kid. Both are more ethical than I
was at that age, both have a better wariness of drugs and sex than I
had. All in all I'm happy and proud of them. Do I think they are
perfect? No. Do I think their lives were too organized when they were
young? Yes. Have I steered them towards activities more than my
parents did - both in terms of the activities themselves and the
gear? Yes. But that's because we live in a social situation and a
physical location that precludes a lot of the spontaneous, self-
directed activities I enjoyed as a kid in the 50s and 60s. It ain't
the time or place I grew up in.

All that said, I just can't see anything wrong with encouraging a
college-bound kid to ride a bike at school, and helping him buy it.
That's not how I was treated, but it's far beyond being overly
controlling and protective. On the other hand, about that time in a
kid's life, it would be the last piece of gear I bought for him/her -
after that, either they want it enough to spend their own time and
money on, or they don't.

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

In article <484d32dd$0$17160$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> >>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> >>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
> >>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
> >>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
> >>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
> >>> What other models should I be looking at?
>
> >> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
> >> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
> >> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
> >> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
> >> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.
>
> >> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
> >> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
> >> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
> >> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
> >> earn their own money for such stuff?
>
> >> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
> >> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
> >> graduation? "Poor" kid!
>
> > What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
> > who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
> > bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
> > that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
> > college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
> > college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
> > the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
> > indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.
>
> > We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
> > for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
> > things if something goes wrong.
>
> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
>
> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
> mode of social conduct.

Just because it is prevalent does not mean it is universal.
Plenty of children are not reared that way.
And of those that are many will survive and flourish.
Funny how well analyzed the whole deal is. I suspect that
it is not all as straightforward as it is presented.

Oh, look:
"Although we're well on our way to
making kids more fragile, no one thinks that kids and
young adults are fundamentally more flawed than in
previous generations. Maybe many will "recover" from
diagnoses too liberally slapped on to them. In his own
studies of 14 skills he has identified as essential for
adulthood in American culture, from love to leadership,
Epstein has found that "although teens don't
necessarily behave in a competent way, they have the
potential to be every bit as competent and as
incompetent as adults."
"

--
Michael Press

Ryan Cousineau

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

In article <484d32dd$0$17160$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> >>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> >>> college.

> >> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
> >> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
> >> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
> >> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
> >> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.

> >> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
> >> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
> >> graduation? "Poor" kid!
>
> > What was that all about?

> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html

> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
> mode of social conduct.
>
> Jobst Brandt

I bought a bike at a garage sale for my pre-school-aged niece. Too much?
Time to cut the strings?

I'm totally willing to believe that some parents want to coddle their
kids too much and that has a detrimental effect on kids.

I'm totally unwilling to believe that a middle-class family buying a
bike, even a nice one, for their college-age kid, has anything to
explain.

However, the revelation that Jobst is now apparently advocating Randian
Parenting is . . . awesome! In several senses of the word.

<http://obsequiosity.home.mchsi.com/philosophy/tots.html>

Share & Enjoy,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Peter Cole

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
>
> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
> mode of social conduct.

It's fashionable to bash "helicopter parenting", and there's lots of
truth to the criticism, but I think it's more the symptom than the
disease. I think the content of one of the last paragraphs hits closer
to the root cause:

"The childhood we've introduced to our children is very different from
that in past eras, Epstein stresses. Children no longer work at young
ages. They stay in school for longer periods of time and spend more time
exclusively in the company of peers. Children are far less integrated
into adult society than they used to be at every step of the way. We've
introduced laws that give children many rights and protections—although
we have allowed media and marketers to have free access."

We've turned our children over to their peers and Madison Ave. to raise,
the "hovering" is just compensation. Our society has gone through a
major transition in the past 30 years with women in the workforce. The
issue of who was going to actually raise the children got glossed over.
It's the elephant in the room.

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

If we didn't all know Jobst is a generous, big-hearted bicycle
advocate, I'd venture that someone is a little miffed that someone
else actually bothered to calculate cable and stretch and pad
compression... (I'm not sure why as I still have no !@#$ing idea what
those two clowns were arguing about, and it's not like Beam bothered
to try either...)

Thanks for all the parenting advice. I grew up in an urban college
city, and never lost a bike, so I understand what's involved. I
probably mislead a bit with my post. My son has never had a bike - we
live in a hilly and traffic heavy suburb, and it wasn't his thing.
But he recently mentioned it, said he thought he knew from riding
friend's bikes. I let him try my big Ritchey, and he could start up
and stay upright, but couldn't turn or shift with any confidence. A
relaxed posture and internal gears would seem to meet his needs at the
moment.

With the REI discount, the Transfer is a very attractive product. I'm
not that confident I could find a used bike with internal gears in
good shape without hidden problems. Say I decided it has to have new
wheels, or fenders, or a rack - the price could escalate quickly...

Now to go deal with the pool boy. You'd think a Stanford graduate
would know how to keep the 23K plumbing fixtures clean...

JG

John Forrest Tomlinson

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 07:21:51 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>The school was overwhelmed with students bicycling to school, as soon as
>it opened (it's been open for only three years). They vastly
>underestimated the number of students that would be permitted to bicycle
>to school, and rushed to build a second secure bicycle parking area. So
>there is hope for the world.

Cool.

catzz66

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

JG wrote:
> If we didn't all know Jobst is a generous, big-hearted bicycle
> advocate, I'd venture that someone is a little miffed that someone
> else actually bothered to calculate cable and stretch and pad
> compression... (I'm not sure why as I still have no !@#$ing idea what
> those two clowns were arguing about, and it's not like Beam bothered
> to try either...)
>
> Thanks for all the parenting advice. I grew up in an urban college
> city, and never lost a bike, so I understand what's involved. I
> probably mislead a bit with my post. My son has never had a bike - we
> live in a hilly and traffic heavy suburb, and it wasn't his thing.
> But he recently mentioned it, said he thought he knew from riding
> friend's bikes. I let him try my big Ritchey, and he could start up
> and stay upright, but couldn't turn or shift with any confidence. A
> relaxed posture and internal gears would seem to meet his needs at the
> moment.
>
> With the REI discount, the Transfer is a very attractive product. I'm
> not that confident I could find a used bike with internal gears in
> good shape without hidden problems. Say I decided it has to have new
> wheels, or fenders, or a rack - the price could escalate quickly...
>
> Now to go deal with the pool boy. You'd think a Stanford graduate
> would know how to keep the 23K plumbing fixtures clean...
>
> JG
>
It's certainly not a crime to want to do something nice for your college
student. I was lucky enough to have two hard working kids who earned
what they could with their summer jobs. I helped them with their
undergrad costs and anything else I could afford to do when I thought it
was appropriate. If someone had criticized me for any of that, I would
have told them it was none of their business and gone on with it. That
being said, I always bought used bikes that ran well but were not too
nice looking, because they were simply not as tempting to steal.

Tom Kunich

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

"JG" <jchg@cox.net> wrote in message
news:f95ea812-cba3-4332-af68-f826dd6049f3@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> But he recently mentioned it, said he thought he knew from riding
> friend's bikes. I let him try my big Ritchey, and he could start up
> and stay upright, but couldn't turn or shift with any confidence. A
> relaxed posture and internal gears would seem to meet his needs at the
> moment.

I would suggest that perhaps your son will graduate to faster bicycles
rather rapidly if he finds them interesting. In which case internal gearing
bike wouldn't last long at all.

And he might find that he detests riding bicycles to class in which case
you'd end up wasting your money on a new bike.

The bottom line is still finding a good used bike in his size.

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 11:47 AM

In article
<f95ea812-cba3-4332-af68-f826dd6049f3@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
JG <jchg@cox.net> wrote:

> Now to go deal with the pool boy. You'd think a Stanford graduate
> would know how to keep the 23K plumbing fixtures clean...

:)

--
Michael Press

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 11:49 AM

Michael Press wrote:

>>>>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
>>>>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
>>>>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
>>>>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
>>>>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
>>>>> What other models should I be looking at?

>>>> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
>>>> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
>>>> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
>>>> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
>>>> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.

>>>> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
>>>> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
>>>> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
>>>> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
>>>> earn their own money for such stuff?

>>>> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
>>>> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
>>>> graduation? "Poor" kid!

>>> What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
>>> who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
>>> bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
>>> that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
>>> college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
>>> college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
>>> the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
>>> indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.

>>> We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
>>> for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
>>> things if something goes wrong.

>> You might get a better understanding from:

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html

>> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.

>> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
>> mode of social conduct.

> Just because it is prevalent does not mean it is universal. Plenty
> of children are not reared that way. And of those that are many
> will survive and flourish. Funny how well analyzed the whole deal
> is. I suspect that it is not all as straightforward as it is
> presented.

> Oh, look:

# Although we're well on our way to making kids more fragile, no one
# thinks that kids and young adults are fundamentally more flawed than
# in previous generations. Maybe many will "recover" from diagnoses
# too liberally slapped on to them. In his own studies of 14 skills he
# has identified as essential for adulthood in American culture, from
# love to leadership, Epstein has found that "although teens don't
# necessarily behave in a competent way, they have the potential to be
# every bit as competent and as incompetent as adults.

Wishful thinking doesn't produce result. The qualification of
"previous generation" is important. Protective parenting has been
growing for more than a couple of decades and is increasing. We see
that skills not learned in youth generally don't take hold later.
Psychotherapists have their hands full with the disoriented adults
these days. The article outlines it in certain terms and it parallels
my experience.

"Don't question authority!", parental, local and federal government.
The basis for questioning authority was erased beginning in early
youth.

Jobst Brandt

jim beam

01-04-1970, 11:49 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>
>>>>>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
>>>>>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
>>>>>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
>>>>>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
>>>>>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
>>>>>> What other models should I be looking at?
>
>>>>> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
>>>>> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
>>>>> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
>>>>> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
>>>>> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.
>
>>>>> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
>>>>> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
>>>>> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
>>>>> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
>>>>> earn their own money for such stuff?
>
>>>>> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
>>>>> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
>>>>> graduation? "Poor" kid!
>
>>>> What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
>>>> who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
>>>> bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
>>>> that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
>>>> college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
>>>> college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
>>>> the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
>>>> indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.
>
>>>> We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
>>>> for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
>>>> things if something goes wrong.
>
>>> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
>>> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
>
>>> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
>>> mode of social conduct.
>
>> Just because it is prevalent does not mean it is universal. Plenty
>> of children are not reared that way. And of those that are many
>> will survive and flourish. Funny how well analyzed the whole deal
>> is. I suspect that it is not all as straightforward as it is
>> presented.
>
>> Oh, look:
>
> # Although we're well on our way to making kids more fragile, no one
> # thinks that kids and young adults are fundamentally more flawed than
> # in previous generations. Maybe many will "recover" from diagnoses
> # too liberally slapped on to them. In his own studies of 14 skills he
> # has identified as essential for adulthood in American culture, from
> # love to leadership, Epstein has found that "although teens don't
> # necessarily behave in a competent way, they have the potential to be
> # every bit as competent and as incompetent as adults.
>
> Wishful thinking doesn't produce result. The qualification of
> "previous generation" is important. Protective parenting has been
> growing for more than a couple of decades and is increasing. We see
> that skills not learned in youth generally don't take hold later.
> Psychotherapists have their hands full with the disoriented adults
> these days. The article outlines it in certain terms and it parallels
> my experience.
>
> "Don't question authority!", parental, local and federal government.
> The basis for questioning authority was erased beginning in early
> youth.

interesting to see the one who exhibits the strongest resistance to
having their authority questioned, now appears to lack any ability to
connect any associative dots when seeking grounds on which to lash out
at others...

Tom Kunich

01-04-1970, 11:49 AM

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:484dd0e0$0$17205$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> "Don't question authority!", parental, local and federal government.
> The basis for questioning authority was erased beginning in early
> youth.

And we wonder why there are so many fascist/Socialist youths.

Ed Pirrero

01-04-1970, 11:49 AM

On Jun 9, 5:54 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
> >>>>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> >>>>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
> >>>>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
> >>>>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
> >>>>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
> >>>>> What other models should I be looking at?
> >>>> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
> >>>> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
> >>>> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
> >>>> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
> >>>> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.
> >>>> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
> >>>> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
> >>>> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
> >>>> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
> >>>> earn their own money for such stuff?
> >>>> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
> >>>> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
> >>>> graduation? "Poor" kid!
> >>> What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
> >>> who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
> >>> bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
> >>> that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
> >>> college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
> >>> college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
> >>> the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
> >>> indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.
> >>> We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
> >>> for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
> >>> things if something goes wrong.
> >> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
> >> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
> >> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
> >> mode of social conduct.
> > Just because it is prevalent does not mean it is universal. Plenty
> > of children are not reared that way. And of those that are many
> > will survive and flourish. Funny how well analyzed the whole deal
> > is. I suspect that it is not all as straightforward as it is
> > presented.
> > Oh, look:
>
> # Although we're well on our way to making kids more fragile, no one
> # thinks that kids and young adults are fundamentally more flawed than
> # in previous generations. Maybe many will "recover" from diagnoses
> # too liberally slapped on to them. In his own studies of 14 skills he
> # has identified as essential for adulthood in American culture, from
> # love to leadership, Epstein has found that "although teens don't
> # necessarily behave in a competent way, they have the potential to be
> # every bit as competent and as incompetent as adults.
>
> Wishful thinking doesn't produce result.

Hmmm. A lot of wishful thinking on your part was included in your
original rant. If you were to be completely honest, you'd admit that
you know absolutely none of your assumptions to have any basis in
fact.

E.P.

Michael Press

01-04-1970, 11:49 AM

In article <484dd0e0$0$17205$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
>
> >>>>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
> >>>>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
> >>>>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
> >>>>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
> >>>>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
> >>>>> What other models should I be looking at?
>
> >>>> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
> >>>> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
> >>>> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
> >>>> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
> >>>> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.
>
> >>>> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
> >>>> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
> >>>> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
> >>>> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
> >>>> earn their own money for such stuff?
>
> >>>> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
> >>>> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
> >>>> graduation? "Poor" kid!
>
> >>> What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
> >>> who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
> >>> bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
> >>> that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
> >>> college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
> >>> college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
> >>> the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
> >>> indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.
>
> >>> We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
> >>> for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
> >>> things if something goes wrong.
>
> >> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
> >> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
>
> >> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
> >> mode of social conduct.
>
> > Just because it is prevalent does not mean it is universal. Plenty
> > of children are not reared that way. And of those that are many
> > will survive and flourish. Funny how well analyzed the whole deal
> > is. I suspect that it is not all as straightforward as it is
> > presented.
>
> > Oh, look:
>
> # Although we're well on our way to making kids more fragile, no one
> # thinks that kids and young adults are fundamentally more flawed than
> # in previous generations. Maybe many will "recover" from diagnoses
> # too liberally slapped on to them. In his own studies of 14 skills he
> # has identified as essential for adulthood in American culture, from
> # love to leadership, Epstein has found that "although teens don't
> # necessarily behave in a competent way, they have the potential to be
> # every bit as competent and as incompetent as adults.
>
> Wishful thinking doesn't produce result. The qualification of
> "previous generation" is important. Protective parenting has been
> growing for more than a couple of decades and is increasing. We see
> that skills not learned in youth generally don't take hold later.
> Psychotherapists have their hands full with the disoriented adults
> these days. The article outlines it in certain terms and it parallels
> my experience.
>
> "Don't question authority!", parental, local and federal government.
> The basis for questioning authority was erased beginning in early
> youth.

Near as I can tell you cannot prevent young people from
questioning authority. The trick is to teach them to
respect authority; and that is part of teaching them
to respect themselves. By `teach' I mean a combination
of injunction and example. Young ones really do want
to be told what to do. Young ones crave structure;
crave knowing their part in things, and the chance
to uphold their responsibilities.

--
Michael Press

Mike Jacoubowsky

01-04-1970, 11:49 AM

> "Don't question authority!", parental, local and federal government.
> The basis for questioning authority was erased beginning in early
> youth.

On that we can agree. The schools don't teach independent thinking anymore.
I used to come home from Jr. High, convinced by what I'd learned in Social
Studies class that my parents were doing everything they could to wreck the
world. And my Dad would sit me down and say yes, that's one side of it, but
it's not quite that simple. Here's why... (and I'd get to think about who
was right and who was wrong and consider that the same set of facts could
support multiple theories and so on).

I've got a 15 & 20 year old, and neither one has ever come home from school
angry about what my generation has done to the world. I've looked forward to
such conversations, and they just never happen. Schools are all about
passing tests and learning to be good consumers. And somewhere along the way
a sense of entitlement creeps in.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:484dd0e0$0$17205$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Michael Press wrote:
>
>>>>>> I'm looking to buy a commuter bike for my son as he is off to
>>>>>> college. The REI Transfer looks like a knock-out. It's an
>>>>>> upright commuting bike with Shimano seven speed internal gears,
>>>>>> 26' tires, v- brakes, all fairly hassle-free, _and_ it's sold with
>>>>>> a rack, Shimano dynamo front hub, fenders, and kickstand for $600.
>>>>>> What other models should I be looking at?
>
>>>>> Going to college? I suspect he should be essentially an adult by
>>>>> now and ridden many miles. If he hasn't, that's where the choice
>>>>> of bicycle got lost. Besides, if he hasn't ridden yet, commuting
>>>>> to class will be only that so get a one speed balloon tired bicycle
>>>>> from Goodwill and let him pay for it.
>
>>>>> By the time most young men get to high school, they either know
>>>>> what sort of bicycle they want to ride or they don't want to ride.
>>>>> How long are you going to hold his hand, or better yet, let his
>>>>> mother do so? What did he do for summer work, where a young people
>>>>> earn their own money for such stuff?
>
>>>>> I guess mom takes him to Nordstrom's or Neiman Marcus to oversee
>>>>> his wardrobe. What kind of BMW did he get for high school
>>>>> graduation? "Poor" kid!
>
>>>> What was that all about? A guy wants to buy a bike for his kid
>>>> who's off to college. Could be that he's going to a school that's
>>>> bicycle-friendly and car-hostile. Yes, they do exist. Could be
>>>> that he's told his kid they can't afford a car for him, that with
>>>> college costing what it does, the deal is that mom & dad pay for
>>>> college but no car... he's going to make do with a bike. Whatever
>>>> the case, it's a pretty innocent-looking post, certainly nothing
>>>> indicative of everything that's wrong with our society.
>
>>>> We get people like this in our shop all the time. They're looking
>>>> for something practical and a shop that's going to take care of
>>>> things if something goes wrong.
>
>>> You might get a better understanding from:
>
> http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
>
>>> read all 8 parts and I think you'll recognize the behavior.
>
>>> Just because this syndrome is so prevalent, doesn't make it a good
>>> mode of social conduct.
>
>> Just because it is prevalent does not mean it is universal. Plenty
>> of children are not reared that way. And of those that are many
>> will survive and flourish. Funny how well analyzed the whole deal
>> is. I suspect that it is not all as straightforward as it is
>> presented.
>
>> Oh, look:
>
> # Although we're well on our way to making kids more fragile, no one
> # thinks that kids and young adults are fundamentally more flawed than
> # in previous generations. Maybe many will "recover" from diagnoses
> # too liberally slapped on to them. In his own studies of 14 skills he
> # has identified as essential for adulthood in American culture, from
> # love to leadership, Epstein has found that "although teens don't
> # necessarily behave in a competent way, they have the potential to be
> # every bit as competent and as incompetent as adults.
>
> Wishful thinking doesn't produce result. The qualification of
> "previous generation" is important. Protective parenting has been
> growing for more than a couple of decades and is increasing. We see
> that skills not learned in youth generally don't take hold later.
> Psychotherapists have their hands full with the disoriented adults
> these days. The article outlines it in certain terms and it parallels
> my experience.
>
> "Don't question authority!", parental, local and federal government.
> The basis for questioning authority was erased beginning in early
> youth.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Tom Kunich

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rcousine-1E9654.19281609062008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>
> However, the revelation that Jobst is now apparently advocating Randian
> Parenting is . . . awesome! In several senses of the word.

Jobst has a lot of value to add. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot of
low value as well. Don't we all?

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

I took a look at craigslist on y'all's advice. You can buy some nice
bikes for astonishingly small prices. But, as soon as you want
something specific, the walls close in. An Inter-7 and a Dynamo hub
as components go for over $200. Building up wheels and adding a
shifter, and you are over half the price of the Transfer. I also
checked constant dollars. When I bought my first ten speed, the
Transfer was equivalent to $150, and that's before the REI dividend.
OTOH Performance had some nice, light derailleur bikes for less.

Maybe the kid's going to have to learn how to take care of a
derailleur...
JG

Ryan Cousineau

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

In article <xYOdnWHhHanKcNDVnZ2dnUVZ_ozinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:rcousine-1E9654.19281609062008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
> >
> > However, the revelation that Jobst is now apparently advocating Randian
> > Parenting is . . . awesome! In several senses of the word.
>
> Jobst has a lot of value to add. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot of
> low value as well. Don't we all?

Tom, I think Jobst is one of the most valuable contributors to this
group. Here's what I wrote, rather fawningly, on that subject in 2003:

<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/23
3bc39e12f65d9/4655815a551cda04?lnk=gst&q=jobst+cousineau+rather#4655815a5
51cda04>

I stand by every word, and hope that he will continue to post here as
long as he is able.

However, every time he posts something as silly as he did up-thread, I
will make fun of it. The random BMW-purchasing accusations (would it be
okay if it was used? Would it be bad again if it was an E24 M6? Are
Porsches okay?) were just plain cute. The chance to use the Ayn Rand
School for Tots reference from The Simpsons meant there was no way I
wasn't going to respond.

I won't catalog my own (numerous) shames in this and other newsgroups.
It can be a fun game in which everyone can play along,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Tom Kunich

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

"JG" <jchg@cox.net> wrote in message
news:90298662-d3cc-4d73-8473-8138d853a464@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I took a look at craigslist on y'all's advice. You can buy some nice
> bikes for astonishingly small prices. But, as soon as you want
> something specific, the walls close in. An Inter-7 and a Dynamo hub
> as components go for over $200. Building up wheels and adding a
> shifter, and you are over half the price of the Transfer. I also
> checked constant dollars. When I bought my first ten speed, the
> Transfer was equivalent to $150, and that's before the REI dividend.
> OTOH Performance had some nice, light derailleur bikes for less.
>
> Maybe the kid's going to have to learn how to take care of a
> derailleur...

After all, they aren't that complicated.

Kerry Montgomery

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

Ed Pirrero

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

On Jun 9, 9:44 pm, "Kerry Montgomery" <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
> "JG" <j...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:90298662-d3cc-4d73-8473-8138d853a464@i36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >I took a look at craigslist on y'all's advice. You can buy some nice
> > bikes for astonishingly small prices. But, as soon as you want
> > something specific, the walls close in. An Inter-7 and a Dynamo hub
> > as components go for over $200. Building up wheels and adding a
> > shifter, and you are over half the price of the Transfer. I also
> > checked constant dollars. When I bought my first ten speed, the
> > Transfer was equivalent to $150, and that's before the REI dividend.
> > OTOH Performance had some nice, light derailleur bikes for less.
>
> > Maybe the kid's going to have to learn how to take care of a
> > derailleur...
> > JG
>
> If you have a little time, you may still find what you want on craigslist. I
> bought a Raleigh 7 speed (Shimano Nexus hub) for $100 last year. If I were
> riding to classes on campus, I'd prefer a derailleur bike, though.
> Kerry

I can't remember my college commuter - I think it might have been s
Sears three-speed. I do remember using some latex house paint on it
to make it look very beaterish.

The three-speed hub did not last long, to be sure. Couldn't have been
more than two or three months. It was a long time ago...

A bike with a derailleur is a good choice. I saw some two-decade-old
steel-framed mountain bikes down at one of our LBS' last week for
under $100. One was pretty nice. And the other was very nice, so I
bought it. Nice steel Trek (made in USA) Singletrack. I think it
will make the basis for a fine hardtail trail bike, once the awful
center-pull cantis are consigned to the trash and decent Vs are
installed, and I lay my hands on an appropriate suspension fork.

Now, all that is a bit beyond what JG wanted, except the cheap,
reliable starting material. And at that price, if a thief makes off
with it, it's not a crying shame. A shame, but not one to cry
over. :)

E.P.

Peter Cole

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

Ed Pirrero wrote:

> I can't remember my college commuter - I think it might have been s
> Sears three-speed. I do remember using some latex house paint on it
> to make it look very beaterish.

I can, because I still have it, my wife has hers, too. Not that they're
anything like the original state (kind of like Grandpa's hatchet), but
they're both 35+ years old (wife's got a '72 UMass sticker), and the
kids have ridden both as beaters -- kind of cool when your college kid
rides your college bike. As a matter of fact, the last time hers got
used was last night when we went rowing, trailering my 10.5' skiff to
the river on a bike trailer I built this weekend.

Tom Kunich

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rcousine-25D247.00121010062008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>
> I stand by every word, and hope that he will continue to post here as
> long as he is able.

Oh great, now Jobst will have to watch out for someone trying to kiss his
butt........

Personally I like to take the occasional jab at his warts. It's fun to see
him jump.

jim beam

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

Peter Cole

01-04-1970, 11:50 AM

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <xYOdnWHhHanKcNDVnZ2dnUVZ_ozinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:rcousine-1E9654.19281609062008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>>> However, the revelation that Jobst is now apparently advocating Randian
>>> Parenting is . . . awesome! In several senses of the word.
>> Jobst has a lot of value to add. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot of
>> low value as well. Don't we all?
>
> Tom, I think Jobst is one of the most valuable contributors to this
> group. Here's what I wrote, rather fawningly, on that subject in 2003:
>
>
> However, every time he posts something as silly as he did up-thread, I
> will make fun of it.

I don't know, I think he has a point. If a kid hasn't shown any interest
in bikes by 18, I doubt they'll convert. Of course it may be possible
that the kid goes from a bike-hostile 'burb (not uncommon) to a
bike-centric campus (not common) and has an awakening. I've tried to get
my local advocacy group to get involved in campus bike programs as the
student population here in Boston is huge (and the city is flat), but
there's little interest and student cycling remains rare.

Tinkering with bikes was once a rite of passage, and bikes were a
necessity since parents didn't shuttle kids around so much. That's the
irony in today's childhood, in earlier times we had stay-at-home
parents, but our time was much less structured, and, as such, much less
supervised. We would typically go out all day, and could (and did) range
far and wide. Biking to school was common. Today, by contrast, biking to
school (our elementary) is forbidden for safety reasons -- something I
have to reluctantly agree with, since the harried parents drive like
maniacs around the school (I live on the street).

I tried to raise my kids with some risk. I taught them cycling on
Boston's busiest streets during rush hour (after years of working up to
it). I towed my daughter (from 5 to 9) on a trailer bike fast enough for
her to frequently catch air on rocky single track, fire roads and ski
slopes. When they were old enough (13-14), I let them ride their bikes
into the city on their own. I got the occasional disapproval of their
peer's parents. A lot of it was nerve wracking, it's not an easy thing
to do. Once, when I was sailing alone with my 5 year old son, 2 miles
offshore in a stiff breeze and good chop, practicing man overboard
drills, he asked to jump in and ride the lifeline. I took a huge gulp
and let him do it. Today he is a sailing instructor, he got his formal
training by biking to the sailing center. My daughter can ride single
track in her sleep.

Ted Mittelstaedt

01-04-1970, 11:52 AM

"Peter Cole" <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:eCw3k.5599$LN.664@trndny03...
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
>
> We've turned our children over to their peers and Madison Ave. to raise,
> the "hovering" is just compensation. Our society has gone through a
> major transition in the past 30 years with women in the workforce. The
> issue of who was going to actually raise the children got glossed over.
> It's the elephant in the room.

Not anymore. The mothers these days who are having kids themselves
were latchkey children, with their own mothers working. They understand.

You need to learn some history. The Industial Revolution triggered a
huge backlash, some of which formed labor unions, but one of the
ideas that came out of it was this idea that children are incapabable of
looking after themselves. Ironically, in the 1950's you had wifey staying
home doing her mothering duties doing everything imaginable for the
children, whereas a century earlier children of the same age would
be looking after themselves and sometimes working in a factory.

The mothers today realize that while it's important to allow a child to
have a childhood, at the same time, children are capabable of bearing
responsibility, and in fact it's needed for their development. A child can
watch themselves at home, after school, by themselves. Their mothers
know this because those mothers themselves watched themselves
after school, by themselves.

Ted

Ben C

01-04-1970, 11:52 AM

On 2008-06-10, Peter Cole <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> In article <xYOdnWHhHanKcNDVnZ2dnUVZ_ozinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:rcousine-1E9654.19281609062008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>>>> However, the revelation that Jobst is now apparently advocating Randian
>>>> Parenting is . . . awesome! In several senses of the word.
>>> Jobst has a lot of value to add. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot of
>>> low value as well. Don't we all?
>>
>> Tom, I think Jobst is one of the most valuable contributors to this
>> group. Here's what I wrote, rather fawningly, on that subject in 2003:
>>
>>
>> However, every time he posts something as silly as he did up-thread, I
>> will make fun of it.
>
> I don't know, I think he has a point. If a kid hasn't shown any interest
> in bikes by 18, I doubt they'll convert.

I agree that the love of bicycles and vehicles usually starts younger,
but the boy could harmlessly become a POB simply using the bicycle as a
way to go about his business.

Speaking of young people these days, Prof Susan Greenfield reckons they
are turning into mindless un-self-aware automata in a phenomenon she
calls the Nobody Scenario:

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article3805196.ece

It's basically caused by spending too much time in front of computers.

Alan Hoyle

01-04-1970, 11:52 AM

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:07:51, Peter Cole wrote:

> I don't know, I think he has a point. If a kid hasn't shown any interest
> in bikes by 18, I doubt they'll convert.

I didn't learn to ride a bike at all until I was 17, didn't own my own
bike until I was 20 and that's when I really got proficient at it.

It was not, however, my parents' encouragment that brought me down that
path. (neither of them cycle much.)

-a

--
Alan Hoyle - alanh@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 11:54 AM

Ben C? wrote:

>>>>> However, the revelation that Jobst is now apparently advocating
>>>>> Randian Parenting is... awesome! In several senses of the word.

>>>> Jobst has a lot of value to add. That doesn't mean he doesn't
>>>> have a lot of low value as well. Don't we all?

>>> Tom, I think Jobst is one of the most valuable contributors to
>>> this group. Here's what I wrote, rather fawningly, on that subject
>>> in 2003:

>>> However, every time he posts something as silly as he did
>>> up-thread, I will make fun of it.

>> I don't know, I think he has a point. If a kid hasn't shown any
>> interest in bikes by 18, I doubt they'll convert.

> I agree that the love of bicycles and vehicles usually starts
> younger, but the boy could harmlessly become a POB simply using the
> bicycle as a way to go about his business.

> Speaking of young people these days, Prof Susan Greenfield reckons
> they are turning into mindless un-self-aware automaton in a
> phenomenon she calls the Nobody Scenario:

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article3805196.ece

> It's basically caused by spending too much time in front of
> computers.

Using computers requires thought and making decisions. It is endless
TV watching that kills initiative and creativity because it offers
completed solutions and scenarios that are most often unrelated to the
observer's life. Most contain poor role models because they are too
polished and so clever that they are hard to emulate without being
obvious.

Jobst Brandt

Paul M. Hobson

01-04-1970, 11:54 AM

> On 2008-06-10, Peter Cole <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
>> I don't know, I think he has a point. If a kid hasn't shown any interest
>> in bikes by 18, I doubt they'll convert.

Ben C wrote:
> I agree that the love of bicycles and vehicles usually starts younger,
> but the boy could harmlessly become a POB simply using the bicycle as a
> way to go about his business.

Growing up in a relatively sleepy suburb of Atlanta, I used my K-mart
red Huffy MTB to get just about everywhere, even on the coldest and
hottest of days. But then I moved up to middle school which was too
far/dangerous to ride (55 mph 4 lane hwy). I also got home just late
enough to have just enough time to finish my homework before dark.

Cars were king in high school, but I bought an old BMX for 100 bucks and
started hitting jumps in the woods to relax after class and work.

Halfway through college, I got bit by the bike bug again and curse
myself every time I think about how much gas I used in high school to
get to a school 2 miles away and a job 3 miles away. If the OP's son
has expressed interest in a bike w/o prodding from the father (my
impression) I think this'll work so long as it doesn't get stolen right
away.

--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

A Muzi

01-04-1970, 11:54 AM

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Using computers requires thought and making decisions.

You'd think so. Peek over the shoulder of a teenager on myspace or
facebook some time. Or the endless tide of content-free telephone text
messages...
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

01-04-1970, 11:54 AM

A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>> Using computers requires thought and making decisions.

> You'd think so. Peek over the shoulder of a teenager on myspace or
> facebook some time. Or the endless tide of content-free telephone
> text messages...

You left out justification for that assessment, and citing a selected
phrase doesn't seem adequate to me to support your reply. Omitted was:

>> Using computers requires thought and making decisions. It is
>> endless TV watching that kills initiative and creativity because it
>> offers completed solutions and scenarios that are most often
>> unrelated to the observer's life. Most contain poor role models
>> because they are too polished and so clever that they are hard to
>> emulate without being obvious.
--
Jobst Brandt

Peter Cole

01-04-1970, 11:57 AM

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:eCw3k.5599$LN.664@trndny03...
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>
>>
>> We've turned our children over to their peers and Madison Ave. to raise,
>> the "hovering" is just compensation. Our society has gone through a
>> major transition in the past 30 years with women in the workforce. The
>> issue of who was going to actually raise the children got glossed over.
>> It's the elephant in the room.
>
> Not anymore. The mothers these days who are having kids themselves
> were latchkey children, with their own mothers working. They understand.
>
> You need to learn some history. The Industial Revolution triggered a
> huge backlash, some of which formed labor unions, but one of the
> ideas that came out of it was this idea that children are incapabable of
> looking after themselves.

I'm only going back a few decades, not centuries.

The change I'm talking about is shown here:

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2000/feb/wk3/art03.htm

> The mothers today realize that while it's important to allow a child to
> have a childhood, at the same time, children are capabable of bearing
> responsibility, and in fact it's needed for their development.

While I can't speak for "mothers today" myself, the trend (and the
context of this thread) seems to be that children are becoming less
responsible.

> A child can
> watch themselves at home, after school, by themselves. Their mothers
> know this because those mothers themselves watched themselves
> after school, by themselves.

Depends on the age, obviously. The past couple of decades have seen a
huge rise in daycare, it's become the norm to start this after a brief
maternity leave. Even older children today are typically engaged in
after-school programs so that supervision covers the adult working day.
Summers and even school vacations are becoming filled with structured
activities like camp.

Latchkey kids are nothing new, but many things have changed to have
shifted things away from that mode -- lack of extended family & at-home
neighbors, smaller families (fewer older sibs) and rising affluence, to
name a few.

Sure, kids can learn independence by being left alone, but it's kind of
like learning to swim by being tossed into the deep end of the pool.
Human development is a slow process, the brain is not mature for 20
years or so. Children need both their IQ and "EQ" developed, to reach
intellectual and emotional maturity. By relegating most of their
interaction during developmental years to peers and TV, we are stunting
maturity. Children simply need to spend more time in the company of
adults -- as large a selection of adults as possible.